The cage and aikido

"Evertyhing happens when I'm gone" Michael Brecker

Mike,

My objection is not about your point of view, but in your stereotype about MMA competitors. If I made similar slanderous comments about aikidoka my gut feeling is you would be the first person to call for my banning from this site.

Evidently, you are incapable of expressing your opinion without resorting to personal insults of people you've never met. But I suppose in your mind you don't have to apologize because you are so spiritually enlightened and in tune with the universe. I expected better from you.

Edward,

Let me be sure I understand.

Self-defence is ususally against surprise attacks where the attacker doesn't know that you do MA, and thinks you must be an easy prey. He will attack with full committment... etc.

So are you saying or are you suggesting that, in general, in a self-defense situation an attacker attacks in such a way as to make it easier than an attack by a trained, conditioned athlete in a competition?

Regards,

Paul

Kevin Leavitt is correct.

Aristeia is also correct.

Tadhg,

re: ne waza and aikido....

Mits Yamashita has combined bjj newaza with aikido. I gather from his Aikido Today interview, that he considers the two arts to be indentical in philosphy. There are some of his students on this board (Steven Miranda, paging Steven Miranda), so hopefully they can chime in with more specifics.

In general, my thoughts are similar to Aristeia's .... I'm willing to bet it looks a lot like bjj or judo ne waza.

Regards,

Paul

I expected better from you.

And what was this "expectation" based on?

Mike,

I have a feeling that you're not going to apologize despite anything I, Kevin, or anyone else says.

My expectations were very simple. You've posted some 200 + times. In the time I've been on this forum, I've read your posts, and it's pretty clear to me that you can state what you think and why very clearly. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem that you can make a gross generalization about a group of people based on what they do that is demeaning, slanderous, and in my experience completely without merit, and evidently not feel that such a statement was in any way wrong.

Let me give you an example to see if it helps explain how I feel. Glancing through the thread titles, I could writing something about the "fat, unathletic, pot smoking dunderheads who train in aikido". Now, you know and I know, that wouldn't be a true statement. I mean, I've never met an aikidoka like that. So in all fairness, if I did post something slanderous, I would expect folks to call me on it. They would have a problem with my unjust stereotype of a group of people. (And for the record, I don't believe aikido is populated with folks who are "fat, unathletic, pot smoking dunderheads" --- that's just an example of a false, slanderous statement)

I feel that's what you did when you wrote,

high-strung, testosterone-driven, steroid taking face smashers

refering to MMA competitors. I feel that was out of line and complete unnecessary, and as I've said before, completely untrue.

Does that help you see where I'm coming from? Do you feel that I'm behaved inappropriately regarding this concern (that I'm over-reactiving, taking things out of context, etc....)?

Oh, and about the aikido thing. Kevin Willbanks can vouch that I've trained in aikido. I did train for 5 1/2 years and attended a number of seminars with a diverse group of aikido instructors. I'm certainly no authoritative expert, but I'm not talking about stuff I haven't experienced. If you need more information, contact me privately and I'll happily go into details of who I've trained with. (Although, I'm not sure why any of that would be relevant to this discussion)

Glancing through the thread titles, I could writing something about the "fat, unathletic, pot smoking dunderheads who train in aikido".

That would be your prerogative.

paul watt (paw) wrote: Oh, and about the aikido thing. Kevin Willbanks can vouch that I've trained in aikido. I did train for 5 1/2 years and attended a number of seminars with a diverse group of aikido instructors. I'm certainly no authoritative expert, but I'm not talking about stuff I haven't experienced. If you need more information, contact me privately and I'll happily go into details of who I've trained with. (Although, I'm not sure why any of that would be relevant to this discussion)

Why, yes, I seem to remember you... You were that big, fat, unathletic guy that was always offering to get me stoned before and after class...

LOL!

Thanks Kevin, I needed that!

Regards,

Paul

Mits Yamashita has combined bjj newaza with aikido. I gather from his Aikido Today interview, that he considers the two arts to be indentical in philosphy. There are some of his students on this board (Steven Miranda, paging Steven Miranda), so hopefully they can chime in with more specifics.

Well obviously I am ignorant of the philosphy behind BJJ. Again the first time I saw it was on that UFC bootleg I mentioned in my first post. Gracie wrapped the guy up and beat the living crap out of him, perhaps it was just the grappling that was BJJ, and the beating was added for UFC.

My Sensei told me that all the good martial artists eventually find non-violence, in thier own way. That the good teachers are actually teaching non-violence at the core no matter what the art is.

I would be interested to see some of these techniques. BJJ is also about non resistance and can be non violent and non injurious - it's just a matter of when you stop cranking (just like any aikido pin). If this "horizontal" aikido is effective, I wouldn't be surprised if it looks similar to BJJ, or Judo Newaza...

Its very hard to describe with words. I'm not sure if I tried if I would clarify or muddy the waters...

Aikido vs. Jujitsu pins: The forms are very similar, and in some cases identical, its the [I}intent[/i] that makes it one or the other. Also, I think some pins are designed to be non-injurous when some mindfullness is put into its application. As an illustration, lets take Shiho-Nage. Its not a matter of cranking or not cranking. Done properly uke's hand should be taken to his/her shoulder, this facilitates a roll, and not injury. YET, if uke's hand is taken away from the shoulder, say besides the shoulder, this CAN lead to injury. A small difference, but one that makes all the difference.

I can't comment on the Aikido Ground Techniques (Bear did call it newaza when he taught it! (there were also to other "wazas" one for holding and one for pins, but I forget what those are called)) we practice and its similarity to BJJ, or Judo because of my own ignorance of these arts. I'm definatly interested into looking into it now! Any resources on the internet you can recommend? Or good books I may be able to get at the library?

Smooth Roads,

-- Tadhg

As one of those cross trainers, it has been wonderful to see how the difference can create harmony not discord, by accepting (enter and blending)with the differences rather than judge them (or people) better or worse.

IMHO, everything except actual combat has rules of engagaement. Yes, I know war is supposed to have them to but somehow its so much harder to apply them and live. Who ever sets the rules and turf will probably benefit from them.

I personally would love to see some body with Aikido training step into the cage and give it a reality check. But, it won't be me.

Until again,

Lynn

Tadhg,

For all things judo on the internet, I like the Judo Information Site. Specifically, the grappling techniques may be found here

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Paul

Art is a term that can apply to many human endeavors. The "art" in aikido is, IMHO, when a practitioner can use the form of aikido to express his or her inner self in a spontaneous manner. The techniques almost dissappear and the master is an island of perfect posture and movement surrounded by a swirling and off balance attacker. This is when I feel I am watching art.

Why can't UFC fighters also achieve this level? Sure, they can, why not? In all the UFC fights I've watched I have only rarely seen this level of accompishment. But just because soemthing is brutal doesn't mean it can't be art.

A guitar player can call himself a musician, but until he/she can really express himself without paying attention to the technique of guitar playing, it coming so naturally from years of practice, then he is not really an artist but rather an imitator, a technician. The same with aikido or UFC.

I think that ring fighting with a return to gladiator rules, i.e. no rules with death as the outcome, would make for great entertainment, very educational, and a much more interesting level of fighting.

Paul,

Thanks for the links! The pictures are good, but unfortunalty I'm also interested in whats going on in a Judoka's mind while he is doing the technique. That is, what is s/he trying to accomplish? How is s/he going about that?

Also it seemed that it was all holds what about escapes? Does Judo or Jujitsu (Brazillian or otherwise) address this?

In our Aikido Ground Techniques, there is emphasis on escapes and throws from the horizontal position -- not neccisarily being the dominant grappler.

Smooth Roads,

-- tadhg

Tadhg Bird wrote: Well obviously I am ignorant of the philosphy behind BJJ. Again the first time I saw it was on that UFC bootleg I mentioned in my first post. Gracie wrapped the guy up and beat the living crap out of him, perhaps it was just the grappling that was BJJ, and the beating was added for UFC.

Hmmm, I don't remember Gracie pounding on anyone, not his style. He may have thrown a few of those little heel kicks in and a few punches to the head to make the opponent change position. In fact, you could rightly say that the only striking he did could be called atemi, on the way to getting the choke.

Aikido vs. Jujitsu pins: The forms are very similar, and in some cases identical, its the [I}intent[/i] that makes it one or the other.

Well if it walks like a duck, and quaks like a duck. Seriously if the techniques are the same we're left with what's in the persons head. Which will change from individual to individual and situation to situation, even within the same art. You cannot distinguish in any sort of meaningful way on that basis. The overwhelming majority of BJJ-ers fight with *some* sort of consideration for their uke. As witnessed by the relatively few cases of broken joints.

Tadhg Bird wrote: Paul, Also it seemed that it was all holds what about escapes? Does Judo or Jujitsu (Brazillian or otherwise) address this? In our Aikido Ground Techniques, there is emphasis on escapes and throws from the horizontal position -- not neccisarily being the dominant grappler. Smooth Roads, -- tadhg

Something you learn very quickly when you start doing BJJ is that position is everything. If you are fumbling for a submission without good position you are pretty much toast. Just like if you try and apply nikyo or kote gaeshi without first taking uke's balance you are in for some trouble.

So first and formost you must be able to control position. Which means throws (sweeps) and escapes. That's what being the dominant grappler is all about.

Tadhg,

Also it seemed that it was all holds what about escapes? Does Judo or Jujitsu (Brazillian or otherwise) address this?

Michael (Aristeia) is correct. Both Judo and bjj strongly emphasize pin escapes, and rightly so. When beginner's start aikido, it is common to strongly emphasize ukemi, otherwise the beginner gets injuried and cannot continue to train. In the same way, a beginner in bjj must learn to escape, or they will never be able to control their opponent to apply any submissions (and then get frustrated and stop training).

The pictures are good, but unfortunalty I'm also interested in whats going on in a Judoka's mind while he is doing the technique. That is, what is s/he trying to accomplish? How is s/he going about that?

In their mind....who knows? In my mind, I'm trying to flow, get be present in the moment, but I'm not there yet. I'm usually thinking, "oh, now I can try this move...." I've got a lot to learn.

What they are trying to accomplish and how....well, that depends on the situation and their personal preferences.

Mike Jen has produced a DVD which is available for sale where he reviews sparring matches highlighting the strategies and thought processes of the participants. I have the DVD and it's very interesting to get "inside the head" of a great grappler.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Paul

In my time I've seen Shotokan Karate revered as the ultimate only to be belittled by full-contact Kyokushin which was given the lie by BJJ in the UFC and now...aikido?!:

"I remember training at the Gracie Academy in 1991. I was rolling with a purple belt (I was a white belt at the time) and had him inside my guard. I decided to go for a wrist lock just for the heck of it, and I sunk it in deep and hard. The purple belt got this funny look on his face and then screamed. Royce looked over and shook his head. Someone asked, 'What was that?' I replied, 'Oh, something I saw in Bruce Lee movie.'"

....

"I had a similar experience with at a Gracie Training Academy in Parma, Ohio. I put a wrist lock on the instructor. He was so furious that he refused to tap. Rather than break his wrist, I simulated breaking it. I paid the price and eventually I had to train at the Rickson Gracie school that was 55 minutes away rather than 10."

See below for thread:

http://www.royharris.com/forum/showt...p?threadid=454

Training to compete in this gladiator wrestling match could be a lot of fun, but as far as some of the results of different styles of fighting, the results speak for themselves.

Stop whining how much you trained here, or experience this there, if you really want to get together and wrassle, then you guys should make arrangements to visit each other and come to more definite conclusions, or sign up to get into the ring yourselves.

Yeah, I agree it is the testosterone of youth, or a man's man who is blinded by what is expected and not judging for himself what should be.

Aren't students of martial arts, and even of Aikido a bit wiser than this bickering over about what you saw on television?

One could apply the same diatribe, almost word-for-word, just as well to most commercialized professional sports

Not wrongly so either though. A lot of sports are touted as this great magical thing that will turn young men into better people, but that's a complete load of crap, at least in and of itself. The discipline, the examples, the mentoring, those are what shape the young men, and the programs they offer are only as good as the teachers offering them. I see a lot of young athletes who become worse thugs than they were before going into the sport. Why? Because they are elevated to a higher social and socio-political level, and effectively removed from most forms of discipline. Not only does this often make them worse people, but makes them worse athletes as well. Once the glory of the games are gone, and their age makes them unable to play in the NFL, NBA, etc., they'll either have to become a commentator, or try and lead some sort of normal life. No matter the route, chances are, they really haven't grown much as a person if the game is all they ever were taught to focus on.

I would contend that most sports backgrounds do not continue to offer anything significant to that person at that point, whereas a proper example in those sports, or in martial arts, would give them a lifetime of benefit. A good football coach teaches you discipline of spirit, just like a good sensei.

Too much emphasis is put on the game, or the winning in particular, even in martial arts. That distracts from the true core of any art, be that football, boxing, ultimate fighting, or Aikido. Ultimate fighting in particular is a bad sport simply on the basis of it being so heavily driven by a juvenille need to see people beaten and hurt. It certainly offers some educational value for studying various techniques under those conditions, but it's a brutal thugmatch at it's core, driven by bloodthirsty weekend warriors who get off on seeing people pound each other.

They are the modern-day gladiators, and I suspect with time it will continue to get more and more brutal. The movie Running Man really poked fun at this progression, but it's inspiration was certainly based on the continous reduction of standards and moral limits.

I believe strongly this was why O Sensei disliked competitive fighting, not because he felt it had no value. Instead because he felt it distracted from the spirit of the art, because it made people focus on winning, rather than the discipline, rather than honing and perfecting techniques that require a great deal of training to become effective When they become effective, however, they are extremely effective. Competition would drive the fighters to go straight for the techniques which they can learn to win with quickly. I would contend that a first kyu versus a newbie UFC thug would probably lose quite quickly, but a 5th Dan versus a well-ranked UFC thug would probably not go well for the thug. Sure that's a gross over-simplification, but my point still remains. It's about discipline, it's about honing and perfecting, it's about growing into a warrior of natural grace and ease, not patching techniques on till you become a frankenstien's monster of techniques.

Dangus,

Well, I feel compelled to reply. I gather that we've had vastly different experiences or something <shrugs>

In any case, I agree with much of your post about professional sports and the role of good coaches. However, then you jump to

Ultimate fighting in particular is a bad sport simply on the basis of it being so heavily driven by a juvenille need to see people beaten and hurt. It certainly offers some educational value for studying various techniques under those conditions, but it's a brutal thugmatch at it's core, driven by bloodthirsty weekend warriors who get off on seeing people pound each other.

And I don't see how that logically follows.

Why is the UFC a "brutal thugmatch"? It's injury rates are lower than boxing, football, wrestling, heck, I bet they are lower than inline skating. How can it be driven by "bloodthirsty weekend warriors" when the last UFC was peopled with professionals (folks who train "full time, 7 days a week") who were champions in bjj (BJ Penn, Matt Serra), shooto (Uno), ADCC submission wrestling (Ricco Rodriques) and Greco Roman wrestling (Randy Couture). I've met Ricco personally, and I saw nothing that would indicate he "get's off" on pounding someone. Certainly Randy Couture does not as anyone who has met Randy can attest to.

Instead because he felt it distracted from the spirit of the art, because it made people focus on winning, rather than the discipline, rather than honing and perfecting techniques that require a great deal of training to become effective When they become effective, however, they are extremely effective. Competition would drive the fighters to go straight for the techniques which they can learn to win with quickly. I would contend that a first kyu versus a newbie UFC thug would probably lose quite quickly, but a 5th Dan versus a well-ranked UFC thug would probably not go well for the thug.

Again, I'm at a loss. How does someone who trains 7 days a week, 6 - 10 hours a day, watches what they eat and when, lack discipline?

As for "people focusing on winning", well maybe. I can honestly say I haven't met or trained with a single person who wanted to win for the sake of winning. Instead, they wanted to train. Then they wanted to test themselves in a local tournament. Then they went back to training. Then they wanted to test themselves in a regional tournament, and so on. The people I know have always used competition as a way to measure progress, to see where they are at and what they have to work on. Are there people who only want to win for the sake of winning (satisfy some ego issue)? I guess so, but I've never met one.

Frankeinstein's Monster? Again, the people I know who compete in such events are not running around looking for the "next great technique". They are seeking mastery in their own way. They want to be complete, having experience and technique in all ranges of competion: standing, clinch and groundwork. For years now, anyone without a complete game is going to be taken out of their element and defeated.

You may not like the UFC (or Pride or Extreme Challenge, etc...) that's fine. I don't like baseball. So it's not your cup of tea. I get that. But I confess I'm a bit confused as to how you reached your conclusions.

Regards,

Paul

" I would contend that a first kyu versus a newbie UFC thug would probably lose quite quickly, but a 5th Dan versus a well-ranked UFC thug would probably not go well for the thug."

I would have to disagree. Of course, anything can happen in a fight, but let's take a look at a few factors:

1. Attributes. The UFC competitor is a professional athelete/ fighter, which means he has conditioned his body to possess a high degree of stamina, power, explosiveness, flexibility, etc. I have never seen a Godan that even comes CLOSE to being in the same physical condition as a UFC competitor. Without attributes, techniques have no substance and are therefore ineffective. Unless there is a large skill disparity, the person with superior attributes usually comes out on top in a physical altercation.

2. While the Godan may be highly skilled in their specific range of combat (i.e. right as a person has overextended themselves after a punch; just as a person is beginning to grab them), how could a Godan possibly compete against someone once they've been taken out of that range? On the ground, the Godan would be dead. On the feet, how could the Godan defend against Thai kicks and boxing combinations? The windows of opportunity are too small, especially at this level of competition.

I have two friends that recently signed up for NHB matches. They're not into beating people up- they're simply into testing themselves, in the most demanding situation possible. I also compete (sport jiu-jitsu, not NHB), and gearing up for a tournament is the ultimate in discipline. Once you decide to compete, training becomes more focused and more physically taxing. Because you know you'll be facing someone who has been through similar preparation.

Competition brings up a lot of emotions- before the match, during the match, and afterwards. Sometimes it forces you to take a hard look at your training patterns and examine methods for improvement. There nothing like a loss (particularly a humiliating loss) to force this kind of introspection. If you win, the tournament can serve as a celebration for all your efforts and dedication.

I have met, trained with, and felt a number of amazing Aikido practitioners (from Shodan to Godan and more). I have felt techniques delivered so cleanly that it makes me giddy just to receive them. However, I have yet to see any high ranking Aikido practitioners that would give a UFC competitor a run for their money.

Good training to you,

Roy

From what I've read, O'Sensei said something along the lines of "sports [like the UFC] are good for physical exercise." So let's face it, great athletes are not heroes because they are great athletes per se. Some of them however truly give back to the community and thereby are heroes. We must not forget the lesser known heroes who can't throw a football 60 yards and can't make a strong opponent tap out inside a cage. Training the spirit is why I do aikido, and self-defense is a nice by-product. The lack of competition makes aikido powerful.

Drew

If I could choose one guy to be at my side during a bar brawl, I would instantly choose just about any 5th dan in aikido over a UFC champion.

Without attributes, techniques have no substance and are therefore ineffective. Unless there is a large skill disparity, the person with superior attributes usually comes out on top in a physical altercation.

I agree on basic principal, but I have seen few advanced practicioners of Aikido who weren't in very good shape. As long as they remained in a fight which kept within the scope of Aikido, their specialization would offer a huge advantage relative to the broad focus of most UFC fighters. Sure, the guys that practice 6-8 hours a day 7 days a week are going to have an advantage in pure attributes relative to a martial artist who actually contributes something useful to the world when he's not practicing martial skills. While there may be no huge strength training aspect to Aikido, I have certainly met practicioners of Aikido, as well as Kung-Fu and Karate who are absolutely built solid as a rock. The main problem most Aikido practicioners would have would be an unwillingness, or hesitation to inflict serious damage, despite the fact that Aikido does teach them how to do so if they're paying attention to that aspect of it. I hardly meant to turn this into an Aikido vs. UFC debate though. That's not really my point.

I have two friends that recently signed up for NHB matches. They're not into beating people up- they're simply into testing themselves, in the most demanding situation possible. I also compete (sport jiu-jitsu, not NHB), and gearing up for a tournament is the ultimate in discipline. Once you decide to compete, training becomes more focused and more physically taxing. Because you know you'll be facing someone who has been through similar preparation

While I am glad to hear your personal experiences with the UFC is so good, I have met several people who are really into it as competitors, and more that are into it as fans. With a couple exceptions, I've seen very little maturity. What little maturity I have seen has largely been built around some bizarre code of martial honor that allows for hurting other people for sport. I just disagree with the whole concept on principal. You can be dedicated, intense, focused, strong, all that, but at the core, you're still either watching people hurt each other for fun, or you're hurting other people for fun/money/challenge. I don't buy into all the pseudo-honor and glory crap. That's just me. I just personally see it as an immature exercise which does nothing to benefit humanity. In all fairness, I feel entirely the same way about boxing. If these people devoted one tenth the energy that they do into something beneficial to mankind, they'd be saints.

It's injury rates are lower than boxing, football, wrestling, heck, I bet they are lower than inline skating.

First off, I doubt the injury rates are actually lower than inline skating. The number of them in total is probably lower, but statistically, I doubt it. Also, it's a competition that is only practiced a very small amount relative to the amount of time spent training for it. Compared to any other sport it's incredibly disproportionate. I would gaurantee that for the amount of time actually spent engaging in the sport, the rates of injuries are much higher than in most other sports. Furthermore, it has a very high turn-over rate, with a lot of local morons getting into it so they can play toughguy, and then realizing it's way above what they ever realized and drop out before really getting seriously involved into it. At the top levels of it, the money and the skill levels involved would naturally reduce the injury levels, and reduce the recovery time from any injuries received.

Again, I did not want this to degrade into a "My sport is better than your sport" kinda exchange. I just strongly disapprove of UFC and the motivations behind it, and also the same goes for boxing. I have no problem with martial competitions, but I just believe their goals are not coming from the right intentions, and that they take things too far. I compete in sword fighting(SCA, Dagorhir, etc.), kung-fu, soccer, computer games, etc. I have no problem with competition, I just have a problem with the goal. I even like hockey, and that's very violent, but violence is not the express goal of the competition. I believe in hurting people when you have to, not when you want to be entertained or challenged. I guess we'll fundamentally disagree on the maturity of that. I do appreciate the debate though.

mike lee is correct.

i cant believe that people always cling to the belief that a 5th dan could do ok in then UFC/PRIDE.

sure they are more skilled then lower ranked aikidoka, but the techniques are the same, based on overcommitted attacks, and very poor strikes