Deliberations on the transmission of knowledge

BTW Josh, I really like your post and also find it very insightful. I'm contemplating on whether to send you a private message or not. I didn't end up sleeping. I'm busy writing a rap in Japanese LOL.

Mike Sigman wrote: Probably depends on whether Lorel was taking a veiled swipe at anyone with the whole thread. Whaddya think? Mike

1. I perceived this thread to be a veiled swipe, or something very close to it.

2. My perception was somewhat confirmed by the first response to your post.

3. That doesn't really affect the perception I had about Mr.
Tran's post, at a minimum under the theory that two wrongs seldom make a right.

4. As with another recent thread around here, I am troubled that this thread does not expressly own its antecedents.

5. Personalities and past conflicts aside, I believe "a certain gentleman" was misperceived in the exchanges leading up to this thread, correctly or incorrectly on my part.



Take care; train well.

Lorel Latorilla wrote: ...those who think that the pursue of knowledge is mutually exclusive with friendships/trust/single-minded in pursuit and that seeking both in martial arts is worthless is missing the benefits of communal learning. As far as being loyal to truth (in martial arts at least), I think that's a deeper topic that's worth pursuing in another thread.

I essentially agree with the first paragraph here, but disagree with the second. I suppose we could treat the idea itself more fully in another thread, but I think it is central to anyone seeking authentic (truth-based) knowledge. I would also argue it's central to people who are interested in finding quality friendships with which to pursue said knowledge. One must be dedicated to both, in my opinion. My sense of good friendships is that they're based on trust which should itself be based on honesty, something which is rooted in truth. The problem with so many friendships is that they aren't concerned with truth/honesty nearly so much as making one feel good about themselves...which I think we can all agree is not a reliable basis for learning new things. Self-delusion is very often supported by so-called friends who tell you what you want to hear instead of something more honest. Hence, we see groups of people who excuse the BS of their own group for the sake of their friendships, while decrying the other group for doing essentially the same.
...Of course, this perception is based on my own experiences growing up. I've never had a problem getting along with different groups of people but I regularly saw those different groups of people bicker and fight with each other and the above happened all too readily. Because of how easily it seemed to happen, I assume most people operate this way.

...the point of which being that without dedication/loyalty to the truth above all else, extraneous BS creeps in and you see distractions (like inter/intra-organizational politics) getting in the way of the good stuff.

Lorel Latorilla wrote: I knew he really meant to say "dude you know nothing about integrity and honor so shut up"

Nah, you don't know that. And I don't want you to shut up - the "discourse" has been revealing. To take you at your own words, if you have to take a veiled swipe at yourself, how intellectually honest can you be? So even if you "only intend to write truth," one should not eat rice from a dirty vessel (to paraphrase another famous person.)

Btw, very kind of you not to point out my incorrect usage of the quote function in my last post

Tin

Before I reply to your post Josh. I have to reply in kind to some of the comments a strange man made. He is forming some kind of complicated interpretation of what I wrote.

First of all, the article is based on reflections on how I believe I should move in a world full of people offering Faustian bargains. In martial arts, I am first and foremost a student, and not even close to being a teacher. But there are such things as Faustian bargains and snake teachers and I have to know how to deal with them. It is also possible that I may become a teacher and can potentially become a snake as well. Awareness of that is kind of a 'swipe' at myself, one that I hope will help me not become that snake.

Also, the reason why I do not name names is because, well, who knows what a teacher is about? Who knows what his ulterior motives are? All I know is, that there are people that try to control the dialogue of the conversation and do so to curry favor from the opponent. If the opponent does not agree with the terms or feels that there should be more room for discussing the terms, then the opponent is immediately silenced. Of course people can see through the bu****** of the silencer, but the silencer has leverage because he is recognized to possess the knowledge. All of this is symptomatic of an individual desiring to take, using his knowledge as leverage, some kind of standing in his field of expertise. To a person like this, things like loyalty (unless it is due to him), friendship, trust, etc. have no values. An unseen pressure is due to his would be sycophants, and they are often pressured to compromise such things. That's why dealing with this these kind of people will ultimately turn out to be a Faustian bargain.

If people are offended by my original post, like I said, that's the truth hitting them. If they show the symptoms above but believe they are doing it for the good of all knowledge seekers, I would love to hear an explanation from them. If the snake thing does not speak to you, then good for you! "Knowledge is power" will be a good warning for you.

Hi Lorel, I remember you. You joined the Qijin forum for a while. You had access to Tin Tran's posts, his picture and his good will. I remember you had issues that made you upset. Why do you pretend you don't know who Tin is?

In any case you're just coming across as an angry young man. I think you're also causing embarassment to some folks who have helped you out in the past (not Qijin forum).

not sure why I bother to say this; but take it easy. It's not as bad as you make it to be.

Rabbit

Oh my ears and whiskers, how late it's getting!

Alice

Curiouser and curiouser!



Damn bunnies.

Josh Philipson wrote: Really interesting thread Lorel. Insightful deliberations. Thank you for sharing. I'm not sure exactly what you had in mind; so some of this may be off topic; but your ideas made me think of these things.. On the one hand this is an insightful comment on the nature of the condition of being ready to learn; but on the other; I think it can imply that a certain type, will see and divide a 'handle' with which to grab and capture the heart of the sincere seeker. i.e. "When you know what you want to hear; someone will appear to tell you that very thing." I'm sure...this happens everywhere that there is a search for something...as you indicated. Personally I find - It is a tough thing to stay truly open and at the same time stay vigilant. ... I can see why some people become cranky old bastards who don't listen and can't hear a damn thing. A few other thoughts (M 2 C)... -In this life, AFAIK, the sharks and snakes will always be there. Hence the old saying to be as wise as the serpent but as harmless as the doves. (That said the doves can and do poop on people's heads from time to time). -Eventually the true nature comes to the surface; but unfortunately sometimes it is too late. There is a saying; 'whatever is in your heart will determine what you say.'. It will come out. Eventually. Did you see "There Will be Blood"? Good movie. Just like that. -Helping other weaker people is good. And threads like these reminding others that trickery and cunning are to dealt with..... reminds others to help where they can. I think most do, most of the time when they can. -Silence can be interpreted in many ways. When someone is silent....in that Silence, the listener can confer the wisdom of the sage...or whatever else it is we tend to want to hear. A specific example; and in the context of, say westerners immersed in eastern martial arts, (where they don't speak the native language. Is that most of us?); if a teacher plays quiet or the role of the warrior sage; or just simply say little, or speak in circles, or deceit.... it is wise to be take stock of what is actually said, and perhaps even more importantly, what goes unsaid. For instance; while, yes, there is the concept of the 2 digit IQ test , it is another thing entirely for the type of politicking, power lording and fiefdom building, sniping, dishonesty, ruses, flow-chart bait and switch discussion, etc. that you mention. -Acknowledging reality. The bullshit we are discussing ... is practiced. In the MA, any tactical endeavor, and adversaries in life, for that matter, we are instructed not to 'play the other guys` game'..but don't' be mistaken...this type of deception you talk about ... -is- the other guys` game...and, in many cases, it is just a game too. What to do? I think Dan and you nailed it up there. -obfuscation. In Intel circles there is the concept of 'muddying the waters'. The best place to hide the counterfeit is right next to the original. That only works if you're not sure exactly what you're looking for. It is BS; but again; effective if you want to play that game... .and keep others off target. and in the dark, and to lord the information as power. blah blah blah. In one way; yes; shame on you for being fooled (i.e. life is hard) but on the other hand; it is hard to swim with a guys foot on your head. yeah. I guess, all in all, this is a case, of sink or swim. and to know, in life... sharks are patrolling these waters. Knowing is half the battle. note: The other half involves guns. -- Last thought: "Establish virtue and honor as your guiding principles and your will and purpose will be bound as metal to stone". I think the best go this way.

1) "Someone will appear to tell you the thing you want to hear" That may be true. I'm trying to sustain and keep building my community of 'martial artists', and that includes both teachers and brilliant students. It is within this 'ecosystem' that someone will say the thing I want to hear. Maybe I'm cynical and will never find that quiet small old man who will teach me the s3kr3te sk1llz of the th3 36 ch4mb3rz.

2) Wise as a snake, innocent as a dove. The man who originally forewarned us is quite a brilliant man.

3) Yes awareness is good. This is one among many. There are many myths that serve as warnings to us, one them being the Promethean myth which serves as an allegory for the pursuit of knowledge.

4) I don't take stock in 'mystic sage sayings'. It might be blasphemous to say but the dokas of Ueshiba just seemed like nonsense to me. Maybe the Japanese is too cryptic for me but...uh yeah. You won't find any secrets there I think. People have tried, I guessed, but came up short with the bodyskills.

5) I think being vigilant and aware that there are real evil people out there who will betray you and try to manipulate to do things is a key skill in the martial arts. I believe that if you are prone to compromise, you will never make it in real life. Bujutsu goes beyond learning a few cool things with your body (although I think all things is based on the ideal skill of 'pure movement' or taijutsu)--it's all encompassing. I don't say that to be cool because if you go to the Philippines with this 'bujutsu' attitude thinking you can do cool sh** with your body, when a small dude with no bodyskill training can just come up to you and shank you where it counts. That is real 'bujutsu'. Yeah shanking someone might not be ideal and I don't recommend, but that guy had a more 'bujutsu' mindset that the one shanked. The shanker decided not to play the "Oh i got serious bodyskilzzz" game and came out 'victorious'. Preparing for that kind of confrontation takes a lot of awareness skills, and that stuff can be trained now as a skillset that can be subsumed under 'bujutsu'. So in some sense, I am practising 'bujutsu' .

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: Hi Lorel, I remember you. You joined the Qijin forum for a while. You had access to Tin Tran's posts, his picture and his good will. I remember you had issues that made you upset. Why do you pretend you don't know who Tin is? In any case you're just coming across as an angry young man. I think you're also causing embarassment to some folks who have helped you out in the past (not Qijin forum). not sure why I bother to say this; but take it easy. It's not as bad as you make it to be.

Literally a few days ago, I didn't know there was a guy in the world named Tin Tran. Some people now have private messaged me and told me who he is. And what embarassment? Can you point out anything that might have been embarassing to you? Also, who are you? Where are these people coming from?

Well, I'm not going to hand out any more info than is already available with a *little* effort to someone who is practicing sneaking up and shanking.

In any case for the record; I am in Hufflepuff not Slytherin

Alfonso Adriasola wrote: Well, I'm not going to hand out any more info than is already available with a *little* effort to someone who is practicing sneaking up and shanking. In any case for the record; I am in Hufflepuff not Slytherin

Call it what it is, Alfonso, it is a reflection, a deliberation. If anyone wants to be offended, they have the right to be. And if I am practising 'sneaking up and shanking', then other people are as well, not just to me, my friends, but to other people as well. But I won't get into that.

I also don't get your joke.

Lorel Latorilla wrote: 5) I think being vigilant and aware that there are real evil people out there who will betray you and try to manipulate to do things is a key skill in the martial arts. I believe that if you are prone to compromise, you will never make it in real life.

I think most people are aware of the concept of "evil" people betraying them and manipulating them. The most dangerous people are the ones we let our guard down on: friendly-looking types (e.g. teachers and other students we respect, etc.). I think this ties in with the previously mentioned balance between being guarded and vigilant, which can be hard.
I also think compromise is like anything else. People who are prone to it are no better off than people who are prone against it. Just as people who are prone to compromise are probably prone to being taken advantage of, people who are prone in the opposite aren't treated as if they cannot be worked with. I'm prone to compromise, but I learned early that compromise for its own sake is foolish, just as I already believed being uncompromising for its own sake is just being stubborn. The question we have to ask ourselves is to what purpose our behavior is aimed...and I think it has to fit the situation more than fit some abstract ideal.

If you are afraid to compromise, IMO, because you perceive the world to be full of evil people ready to take advantage of you, you've also created an opening with which an "evil" person also may manipulate you, e.g., by forcing you to take foolish stands.

In the "real world" adults are expected to compromise. Choose your battles, I say.

This a general point, BTW -- not aimed at anyone in particular.

it's got to be 'willow branch' strength and not ceramic brittle.
But there is some limits beyond which you should not bend, and I took that as the message.

Matthew Gano wrote: I think this ties in with the previously mentioned balance between being guarded and vigilant...

Oops...meant, "between being guarded and open..."

Josh wrote: But there is some limits beyond which you should not bend, and I took that as the message.

I agree, but I think it's important to point out the balance. I believe, in this day and age, people tend to view compromise as weakness...much like many people view being a "nice guy" as being weakness. The somewhat common perception I have been confronted with in life is that you have to be an asshole to be taken seriously or to get things done. This is an excuse for a lot of people to be, frankly, real meanies to each other.
...sorry, got carried away at the end there.

Well... If you've been around long enough the same old stuff just keeps repeating just with different themes attached. This teacher breaks from that group. This group goes a different direction. Those guys point and laugh at that other group doing different stuff because they can't see past the differences to the commonalities. And then people just talk past each other using words in slightly different ways oblivious to the fact that they're more alike than different. Eternal recurrence. Once you're around long enough hopefully you learn to see it, poke at it a bit, try things, but eventually it becomes apparent where things are and where they are going. So you hopefully have the 'wherewithal' to move on and keep moving forward. Guys appear, disappear, reappear under new guises, then vanish again. In the end, however, there are those who train, go to seminars, try things with as much an open mind and empty cup as possible, and life goes on. New things become the big deal. Some become complete fanatics -- totally focused on one thing at the exclusion of everything else. Sometimes those things turn out to be important, but never to the total exclusion of the larger picture. So some fade away over time and you never see them again. Maybe they're in the corner working on their major big thing. Or the next one. No doubt some of these things are important. Maybe even critical. So the insightful person keeps going, trying to stay focused, trying to stay authentic. Paying attention, always critical. And hopefully self-critical.

So much of the transient silliness of individuals really doesn't matter in the end because their behavior is irrelevant to my journey. What does matter to me is that I keep going, keep emptying that cup, keep trying...

In the end there are those few who just keep showing up. The same guys I keep seeing year after year at whatever seminar or event is put on. Still training. Still trying on the new clothes. And still learning.

It's the process, neh? And all the talk doesn't really matter unless you show up.

"... nothing to get hung about..."

Back to my cave for me... Carry on. That's as deep as I get today.

Lorel Latorilla wrote: Call it what it is, Alfonso, it is a reflection, a deliberation. If anyone wants to be offended, they have the right to be. And if I am practising 'sneaking up and shanking', then other people are as well, not just to me, my friends, but to other people as well. But I won't get into that. I also don't get your joke.

The joke refers to the Harry Potter world, and the "houses" in the Hogwarts School. In order with their associated faults and qualities: Hufflepuffs are blinkeredly Loyal. Griffindors are dangerously Brave. Slytherins are devilishly Cunning. And Ravenclaws are annoyingly Clever.

Kevin, our mutual acquaintance, is surely a Griffindor.

Roughly it tracks the Classical personality traits : in the same order: Sanguine. Choleric. Phelgmatic. Melancholic.

And by which obscure reference alone makes me a Ravenclaw, I suppose.

On your larger point you dwell on issues which I think you will find addressed by Rene Girard in a very deep and useful way. To what end I cannot say, but it may help you. The themes you touch are are his themes also. I find it powerful, useful and layered beyond what I though was possible.

BTW,

Just to let anyone and everyone know here. I do not represent Aunkai and my views are not representative of Akuzawa's ideas on anything. I am also engaged in other martial arts.

Lorel Latorilla wrote: Yeah, I'm all for loyalty. The instance where one is entrusted and made to promise to preserve cultural traditions (nevertheless traditions that are not made to impede individual progress but ones that are used as a pedagogical paradigms to ensure progress) is a form of loyalty that I can respect. The kind of loyalty that I think is also good is one where you are loyal to the community of like-minded people. That is, you're not doing this for your own skills but you're out to help those in the community as well, and also help the leader of the community, a person who is most likely having trouble disseminating the skills he knows to the students he teaches. Once you're in this, it is difficult for you to make 'Faustian bargains'--you are less tempted to compromise your moral integrity for whatever knowledge/skill you pursue because you are committed to community. But the baseline for that commitment is trust and friendship and all that, so those who think that the pursue of knowledge is mutually exclusive with friendships/trust/single-minded in pursuit and that seeking both in martial arts is worthless is missing the benefits of communal learning. As far as being loyal to truth (in martial arts at least), I think that's a deeper topic that's worth pursuing in another thread. To bring up another thread from my OP: They say, when you are ready to be a student, then the teacher will appear. That is, when you know what to look for, you know know what questions to ask, and the teacher (whoever and whatever that may be) will have answers fr you. If you do not know what you are looking for, you cannot be a student, and therefore you will not find your teacher. You don't know what to ask, the answers cannot be given to you.

Also, I wanted to make clear that there doesn't need to be a 'leader' for this community. And you can call 'community' friends who are in single-minded pursuit after particular skills. In fact, most of the times there is no 'leader' for where there is a leader, there is a built-up ideology. I'm thinking 'community' precludes 'ideologies'.

Keith Larman wrote: Back to my cave for me... Carry on. That's as deep as I get today.

Hello Keith,

You mean Plato's cave? if so, I think it is quite relevant to this discussion, which is all about the search for knowledge and the rhetoric framework within which this knowledge is offered.

Happy New Year!

PAG

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: Hello Keith, You mean Plato's cave?

Who, me?

Yeah, you got me...

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: if so, I think it is quite relevant to this discussion, which is all about the search for knowledge and the rhetoric framework within which this knowledge is offered.

Absolutely.

And once you've seen the forms themselves, gazing at the walls of the cave simply won't do. Nor will you be all that welcome by the rest of those in the cave.

I also think Popper's observation that Plato's philosophy was encouraging totalitarianism is also of relevance to themes and dynamics touched on by this thread.

Happy New Year to you as well!

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: Hello Keith, You mean Plato's cave? if so, I think it is quite relevant to this discussion, which is all about the search for knowledge and the rhetoric framework within which this knowledge is offered. Happy New Year! PAG

If it is Keith's cave, it cannot be Plato's cave -- but that raises a whole 'nother subject of the nature of ownership and exclusive possession .... Maybe it's a condo cave ...

I also suspect Keith's cave has better accommodations, and likely, better beer ...

It's a really, really big cave...

Keith Larman wrote: It's a really, really big cave...

Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui.

M.