Exercises for developing the centre (center)

Josh Philipson wrote: Here's some food for your brains. And here.

forget the dantien/hara stuffs. focus on creating ground path from any point on your body in static mode then dynamic mode. if you cannot create ground path, then focus on dantien/hara is a waste of time. need to learn how to crawl before walk before run.

Mark Murray wrote: You have to look at things in the context of trying to get out of the box. To look at things as if you didn't know that you didn't know.

Mark, folks like their boxes. it kinda like a security blanket. even the folks that said they want to go outside of the box, they don't really mean it. what they meant is "as long as outside of the box is similar to the inside of the box, i am ok with that"; otherwise, bugger off!

so it's a waste of time to convince folks. either they want to find out or they won't. folks don't change until something drastic happened, like a shortage of coffee which we known as "The End of the World".

Phi Truong wrote: something drastic happened, like a shortage of coffee which we known as "The End of the World".

And here I was just starting to think Iiked where you are coming from but this is just too cruel only indicating a warped and twisted persona. Wait a minute, I'm warped and twisted ... watch out, might be a love/hate thing developing.

I say forget about center and forget about ground path and build up the leg strength way beyond what one might think is required to provide a solid foundation for whatever gets plunked on top of it down the road. You want a fluid mobile powerful center controlling a fully connected body moving in a unified manner? All that gotta sit on some mighty legs for real 'oomph'.

Mark Murray wrote: You have to look at things in the context of trying to get out of the box. To look at things as if you didn't know that you didn't know.

Absolutely. As soon as we assume we know something, we tend to stop searching for more about it. I'm in the very comfortable position of knowing I know, at best, next to nothing about much of anything...especially when it comes to doing. To my mind the answer is somewhat simple though: check around. How do you verify and expand upon information? Cross-reference it as much as possible. This is one of the great things about aikiweb and the like...and I would submit that we're in a great age because we seem to have more people who are willing to share a bit of their knowledge on these matters.

In regards to the topic here of developing the center, I can check off those things that have been done for 40+ years.

Do you think the exercises themselves are lacking? If so, how do you reconcile this with the idea that O Sensei seemed to find some value to them?
My sense (very meager though it is) of this issue is that the lack of explicit instruction is what probably caused the largest rift in the transmission...that people were more or less left to discover it on their own. What do you think?

"Maybe these exercises aren't meant to be done strictly as a warm-up?" If they aren't, then what are they meant to do? Why did Ueshiba do them all the time? What was important? Why is it that 40 years later of doing them, we aren't like Ueshiba? What are we missing?

Good questions...Care to hazzard a guess? My sense of those exercises was that they should be done a lot just to arrive at a good starting place. That's guesswork on my part though.

I think these questions and more should be asked of teachers everywhere, all the way up to Japanese shihan of all styles and Doshu. Don't misconstrue that as meaning we should demand answers. There are tactful, polite, and specific ways of asking questions. And I think we would find some very surprising answers and some hidden gems of information.

I agree...and in my case it's all the more reason for me to resume my training in earnest. When i was learning history and I learned of all these "great" men who tried to leave legacies built on their great accomplishments, I was frustrated to discover they all seemed to have mixed results at best (as I recall anyway). I attribute this transmission issue to be very much in keeping with that of aikido or anything else: it comes down to the next individual in line to be just as tireless in his or her pursuit of understanding...and I think most people are satisfied with being "close enough." Every great person I can think of, subjective though that description might be, seemed to be somewhat fanatical in their efforts. They ate, slept, breathed, and dreamed their study. I don't doubt there are exercises out there that could be better than what we typically see in Aikido, but to get near as good as Ueshiba Morihei and Takeda Sokaku, I presume it takes a lot more than exercises: it takes HUGE dedication, and direct hands on with other people similar to them who will provide direct feedback...hence my earlier remarks about finding a good teacher.
I'm tired; still recovering from pneumonia and not feeling very lucid so I'll leave this here and hope it added to the conversation in a useful way. Sorry if it didn't...I never feel very comfortable joining in on these things...even if it rarely stops me from trying.
Anyhoo...
Pleasant evening, Mark! Thank you for the considerate reply!
Take care all!
Matt
p.s. I liked the groundpath advice...when i was training my best that always seemed to be the best way to teach people who were even more "beginnery" than me. I remember working with one lass and suddenly I felt her ground out (my sense of it at any rate). I said "there! did you feel that? That should be in every movement." She noticed the difference too, which is why I think it's a trustworthy experience. How well grounded of course is another issue altogether. To my mind that has served as an example of how learning some of these things goes: the visceral experience/feeling itself.

Matthew Gano wrote: Cross-reference it as much as possible. This is one of the great things about aikiweb and the like...and I would submit that we're in a great age because we seem to have more people who are willing to share a bit of their knowledge on these matters.

Agreed, but be aware. Observation is one thing, good judgement another. Do not accept everything you find as the truth.

My sense (very meager though it is) of this issue is that the lack of explicit instruction is what probably caused the largest rift in the transmission...that people were more or less left to discover it on their own. What do you think?

It is hard to find a good teacher for regular practise. Anyone can be a good example in one the 'great names' of Aikido. Which off course is good. But when it comes to regular practise...
To add to the problem: How does an inexperienced person know just what makes a good teacher? The dojo around the corner says they do Aikido, but how do you know they are any good?

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: And here I was just starting to think Iiked where you are coming from but this is just too cruel only indicating a warped and twisted persona. Wait a minute, I'm warped and twisted ... watch out, might be a love/hate thing developing.

if you listened to my ranting long enough, you would be warped and twisted too. sort of like the problem of two train traveling in the same direction and you have to calculate how long it take for a person on the train to drink his coffee, with cream and sugar...., mostly cream and sugar.

Robert M Watson Jr wrote: I say forget about center and forget about ground path and build up the leg strength way beyond what one might think is required to provide a solid foundation for whatever gets plunked on top of it down the road. You want a fluid mobile powerful center controlling a fully connected body moving in a unified manner? All that gotta sit on some mighty legs for real 'oomph'.

this is true in most cases when you are up-right. however, for folks who like to roll on the floor, such as bjj or sambo or judo, ground path isn't necessary through the legs. of course, building leg strength and ground path are related. of course the building leg strength isn't the same as going to a gym and pumping iron either. it's a different kind of leg strength training.

hi phi

I didn't mean to imply anything specific - as far as training. This thread ostensibly was about the center, so i posted a link to a pretty lengthy discussion about that..more than I've ever seen here. It is by a bunch of guys trying to understand ... something. Thought there was many great points..physiologically (i.e. as the switching yard of the body), mentally (models of perception of the body), energetically (i.e. how center can effect the 'energetics' of the body), usage (practical). and on and on and on.

if you're asking me what I think you should do first...I don't think I could say.

And o yes - regarding boxes. Perhaps we've only traded one box for another. Boxes are okay. If you don't have a box the marbles spread all over the floor. Order. Understanding. Limits. Boundaries.

Agreed ... Important to open your mind though. And when to bail on my own limited view.

I always liked this quote from the bard:
""There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.""

what the hell am i talking about. damn strong coffee today.
j

Tim Ruijs wrote: Agreed, but be aware. Observation is one thing, good judgement another. Do not accept everything you find as the truth.

Amen to that. As a side note, I remember observing Aikido classes and thinking it wasn't very practical. Experiencing it changed my mind. I think the critical part of checking things out comes from direct participation. I like to observe training to see whatever I think I might be able to see, but I believe the nature of learning physical skills lies in the visceral experience in the body.

To add to the problem: How does an inexperienced person know just what makes a good teacher? The dojo around the corner says they do Aikido, but how do you know they are any good?

How indeed! Hence the need to check things out as much as possible. I think a lot of the advice Mark was mentioning (10000 suburi, etc.) are geared more toward the inexperienced person, but it does also bring up an important factor. If we start out with bad habits, it can be harder to remove them later on...some more than others I would imagine. This is why forums like this can serve such a great purpose in that we can read what a lot of people have experienced. It's still guesswork until the individual has enough experience, but the more we see people supporting different teachers and describing their specialties, the more reliable a starting point we can have. We can guess that certain names, like Sigman, Harden, Akuzawa, etc. are very good resources simply because we have so much testimony...and from a variety of experience levels.

hi Dave, Here's an exercise. Different martial art...but they seek to condition the body/dantian. Here's a discussion about it (requirements, what it trains, etc)..

to develop my centre i use zhuang zhang, standing meditation used in chinese internal arts, and them moving meditation from baguazhang. i use these over methoids in aikido becasue when i learnt them there was more emphasis put on those practices where as in my aikido classes we ardly do the rowing excersie

take horseback riding lessons......
I'm serious.
Especially get someone to put you on a horse bareback on a longe line. Work on remaining relaxed and balanced without using your legs or hands to hold on... at all gaits. Guaranteed to teach you all about being centered.

Matthew Gano wrote: Do you think the exercises themselves are lacking? If so, how do you reconcile this with the idea that O Sensei seemed to find some value to them? My sense (very meager though it is) of this issue is that the lack of explicit instruction is what probably caused the largest rift in the transmission...that people were more or less left to discover it on their own. What do you think?

Hello Matthew,

Sorry about the delayed response. I was sidetracked with other things.

Let me paint a picture here. Let's use cars and drag racing. So, we have Ueshiba's car there on the strip. Open the hood and you find an amazingly powerful engine. The car itself is sleek, rounded, has no sharp edges, but is painted with some very detailed, almost 3D type paint such that the car seems to float in the air. When other people race this car, they lose. Badly. And the car looks as if it's part of the natural world as it floats down the strip. Other cars leave rubber marks, exhaust fumes, have loud noises, but not Ueshiba's car.

Along comes Modern Aikido. They try to build a car to look like Ueshiba's except they don't understand how Ueshiba's painter painted it. How it got so smooth, rounded, and sleek. They also don't understand how Ueshiba's mechanic built the engine so powerful. They do their best to imitate it, though, so that for the most part, it does. But, if you look closely, you can see the flaws in the design. When the Modern Aikido car races, it mostly loses, leaves rubber marks, has exhaust fumes, and is loud. But when you look at the car, it appears to look like Ueshiba's car. When you open the hood, it appears to look like Ueshiba's engine. Except Modern Aikido's car never acts, runs, or moves like Ueshiba's car.

The engine is Ueshiba's Daito ryu aiki. The body is Ueshiba's Omoto kyo spirituality. Modern Aikido has no understanding of either.

If you do Modern Aikido's exercises, you are not doing Ueshiba's exercises, although they can appear to look alike. As you noted, Ueshiba found value in them, so if Modern Aikido is doing them just like Ueshiba, where are the Modern Ueshibas?

After 40 years, we really can sum it up in two basic answers:

1. Ueshiba was a singularly unique individual, a one-in-a-billion kind of guy.

or

2. We aren't doing the same kind of training that Ueshiba did.

Now factor in that Takeda created Sagawa, Ueshiba, Kodo, Hisa, etc and they could all do very similar things. Ueshiba in his early training caused Shioda, Tomiki, Shirata, etc to be very similar in skills, although not as good as he was. Sagawa didn't teach except Kimura got stuff out of him and supposedly Kimura is able to do similar things. Kodo taught a couple of people, most notably Okamoto who can do similar things as all the rest. So, really, reason #1 is kind of hard to accept, especially given the fact that Takeda told people not to teach the secret except to one or two individuals. Sagawa upheld that. Tokimune did, too. Kondo reiterated what Tokimune said.

Basically, even though it is a hard pill to swallow, option #2 is pretty much the remaining answer. We weren't taught the secret of aikido. Ueshiba didn't really teach it. And his students had one near impossible time of trying to figure out what he was doing.

Enter Kisshomaru and Tohei. Modern Aikido was born, raised, and then sent out into the world dressed as Ueshiba's child. 40 years later, the child is now a man. Some people are looking at the Modern Aikido Man and seeing that he doesn't move, act, or do anything at all in the same way Ueshiba did. The Modern Aikido Man is a ghostly and pale imitation that rarely stands up in the same manner as Ueshiba to the tests of the martial world, let alone the tests of the martial/spiritual intertwined world.

Are the exercises lacking? Are the techniques lacking? Is the training paradigm lacking? Is there something missing from the training? I think our Modern Aikido Man has all but directly answered those questions.

I think in the next 5 years, many people are going to be putting the fire to the feet of the Modern Aikido Man and getting that direct answer from him. Those that are content in their current aikido will realize that theirs is Kisshomaru and Tohei's aikido not Ueshiba's. Those wanting to do Ueshiba's aikido will finally have that option. Don't get me wrong here. I don't think of Modern Aikido as bad or wrong at all. Just that people need to realize that there is a major difference between the two.

Matthew Gano wrote: Good questions...Care to hazzard a guess? My sense of those exercises was that they should be done a lot just to arrive at a good starting place. That's guesswork on my part though.

A lot? I think Modern Aikido has done that. People have done those exercises "a lot". Toss that answer out. Modern Aikido has Been There Done That (BTDT) kind of thing. Done the exercises as aerobics. BTDT. Done them slowly. BTDT. Done them quickly. BTDT. 40 years of twice a week. BTDT. 10 years of 4 times a week. BTDT. 20 years of 20 hours a week. BTDT. How many professional teachers do those exercises "a lot"? BTDT.

Ueshiba's training ...
1915 - 30 official days training with Takeda
1916 - 40 official days training with Takeda
1922 - 6 months official days training with Takeda

How about nobody in Modern Aikido has BTDT as the above training for Ueshiba. Most people in Modern Aikido have had direct hands-on training with a teacher for at least 10 full years of 2 to 4 times a week.

My guess? There is a very specific training paradigm required for Ueshiba's martial skills, for aiki. It was *THE* secret that Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, etc all knew. The secret wasn't the results of what they could do, no. The secret was in how to train the body to achieve those results. Do you do those exercises "a lot"? Sure. You train the basics your whole life. But obviously not in the same way that Modern Aikido does them.

Ueshiba's aikido and exercises for development are specific and not what Modern Aikido does.

Modern Aikido's exercises for development are varied and numerous. Cherie Cornmesser gave one example. Of course, most people probably won't have the opportunity to ride horses regularly, but luckily there are many other options for training and development out there. One's teacher is the best place to turn.

Matthew Gano wrote: I agree...and in my case it's all the more reason for me to resume my training in earnest. When i was learning history and I learned of all these "great" men who tried to leave legacies built on their great accomplishments, I was frustrated to discover they all seemed to have mixed results at best (as I recall anyway). I attribute this transmission issue to be very much in keeping with that of aikido or anything else: it comes down to the next individual in line to be just as tireless in his or her pursuit of understanding...and I think most people are satisfied with being "close enough." Every great person I can think of, subjective though that description might be, seemed to be somewhat fanatical in their efforts. They ate, slept, breathed, and dreamed their study. I don't doubt there are exercises out there that could be better than what we typically see in Aikido, but to get near as good as Ueshiba Morihei and Takeda Sokaku, I presume it takes a lot more than exercises: it takes HUGE dedication, and direct hands on with other people similar to them who will provide direct feedback...hence my earlier remarks about finding a good teacher.

I think most people misunderstand the amount of dedication required. With the right training, one can get fairly good in 5 years. No, you won't be on the level of the greats, but you'll be head and shoulders above most Modern Aikido people. No "abnormal" dedication required, just the normal dedication most people have in martial training (Not slackers or part timers).

Yes, if you want to be as good as Ueshiba or Takeda, it will take a lot of dedication and some obsessive training regimen. However, the solo training can be put into everyday work so you are able to train obsessively without a lot of compromise. "Normal" training in a dojo is still required, yes. But, really, looking at the history of Ueshiba, Shioda, Tomiki, etc, they really didn't have much time with their own teachers. Most of their time was spent either solo training or training with peers or seniors.

Matthew Gano wrote: I'm tired; still recovering from pneumonia and not feeling very lucid so I'll leave this here and hope it added to the conversation in a useful way. Sorry if it didn't...I never feel very comfortable joining in on these things...even if it rarely stops me from trying. Anyhoo... Pleasant evening, Mark! Thank you for the considerate reply! Take care all! Matt

Hope you're better by now.

Matthew Gano wrote: p.s. I liked the groundpath advice...when i was training my best that always seemed to be the best way to teach people who were even more "beginnery" than me. I remember working with one lass and suddenly I felt her ground out (my sense of it at any rate). I said "there! did you feel that? That should be in every movement." She noticed the difference too, which is why I think it's a trustworthy experience. How well grounded of course is another issue altogether. To my mind that has served as an example of how learning some of these things goes: the visceral experience/feeling itself.

I am not a fan of how many people are using "ground path". (Note: Take that as the usage, not a disregard of the meaning of "ground path".) Most people think of "ground path" in terms of a one way pathway in their body. I think of it as being much more than that. It is a two way pathway that utilizes contradictory forces and it's always throughout the entire body.

Thinking of "ground path" as a one way pathway to the ground or even a one way pathway from the ground out to your hand can get be detrimental. It can cause you to lose mobility. Sure you're "grounded" but how freely mobile are you *under* pressure/load/attack? Sure you can bring the ground up to your hand, but are you weighted all on one side of your body by doing that?

Lots of things to think about, anyway.

Mark

Mark Murray wrote: Ueshiba's aikido and exercises for development are specific and not what Modern Aikido does.

Tohei's exercises came from Ueshiba, who also signed off on what Tohei was doing. He obviously felt that what Tohei was doing represented the core of what he wanted his Aikido to be. We have video of Ueshiba doing a good number of those exercises himself. So it's hard to say that they're not what he did. That doesn't mean anyone else was doing them properly or address why more attention wasn't paid to making sure people knew what proper was, but that's another topic.

I am not a fan of how many people are using "ground path". (Note: Take that as the usage, not a disregard of the meaning of "ground path".) Most people think of "ground path" in terms of a one way pathway in their body. I think of it as being much more than that. It is a two way pathway that utilizes contradictory forces and it's always throughout the entire body. Thinking of "ground path" as a one way pathway to the ground or even a one way pathway from the ground out to your hand can get be detrimental. It can cause you to lose mobility. Sure you're "grounded" but how freely mobile are you *under* pressure/load/attack? Sure you can bring the ground up to your hand, but are you weighted all on one side of your body by doing that?

That's really just a basic training exercise Mark. Kind of like hitting a baseball off a tee. It's not meant to be the end result.

Jason Casteel wrote: Tohei's exercises came from Ueshiba, who also signed off on what Tohei was doing. He obviously felt that what Tohei was doing represented the core of what he wanted his Aikido to be.

Do you have anything that would help show this? Most things that I've found don't allude to what you've posted. Tohei learned from the Tempukai. Kisshomaru and Tohei took over the hombu dojo after the war and kept it alive and running with their own teachings. They changed things.

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Yoseikan NA website:
Quote:
9. What is the relationship between Yoseikan's robuse and the similar techniques practiced as ikkyo in most other aikido schools?

Mochizuki Minoru Sensei said that when he was studying with Ueshiba Sensei (late 1920's), robuse was the name given to the technique that later became Ikkajo, then Ikkyo after the war. The present ikkyo as taught by most Aikikai (and Aikikai related) teachers is the result of the modifications made by Tohei and Kisshomaru Sensei in order to simplify Aikido and make it available to more people....[edited for length]

Patrick Augé Sensei

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http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=720
In 1963, Kisshomaru made his first trip abroad to the U.S. and
subsequently traveled on numerous occasions to North and South
America, and Europe. Although his efforts to expand the Aikikai on an organizational level are well-known, it should be noted that his
technical influence was also great. Kisshomaru gradually modified the technical curriculum of the Aikikai by reducing the number of
techniques taught and creating a standardized nomenclature. His
flowing style of technique that emphasizes KI NO NAGARE movements have also become a de facto standard in many Aikikai dojos worldwide.

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http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=94 (AJ #112)
AJ: Do you have any particular memories of the old Wakamatsu-cho dojo?
Seiichi Sugano Sensei: The present Doshu (Kisshomaru Ueshiba) was one of the first people I met there. The place had the feel of an
old-style dojo; quite different from the way it is today. Most of the
time only O-Sensei and Doshu were there. Koichi Tohei was the head of the teaching staff. In the afternoon we were taught by people like Sadateru Arikawa, Hiroshi Tada and Shigenobu Okumura. A few years later Saito Sensei started coming down from Iwama to teach on Sundays.

AJ: People who have now become teachers themselves often mention teachers like Koichi Tohei and Seigo Yamaguchi. What were your impressions of them?

Seiichi Sugano Sensei: Yamaguchi Sensei really loved to talk. Once he got hold of you it was pretty hard to escape! [laughs] Actually he had already gone off to Burma by the time I became an uchideshi, and he wasn't back until a year or two later. He and Tohei Sensei were like oil and water. Yamaguchi Sensei had a very strong personality. It was difficult to grasp his techniques — they had quite a different feeling from those of the other teachers — or to capture the essence of what he was doing. Tohei Sensei's teaching was influenced by the Tempukai, and it was easier to follow, probably because much of the Tempukai curriculum originated in yoga.

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Masao Ishii
1965-ish Started training at Hombu

http://aikidocanberra.com/Docs/main/doc/MasaoIshii
NCT: Really? So you started training there. Did you have a chance to train with O'Sensei then?
Ishii Sensei: Well, at that time he was already retired and he didn't
have a regular class. I was only 15 years old. I went to Hombu dojo
many times, where there were many teachers teaching regular classes. I expected to see O'Sensei at the dojo. His home was just next to Hombu dojo, and I expected him to come out of his room to teach us. But he didn't come to the dojo often. After a few months I learned that it was only for Yamaguchi Sensei's and Kisshomaru Sensei's classes that he came to the dojo to join us. This means that O'Sensei was not interested in other teachers training.

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http://www.iwama-aikido.com/Saito_Interview.html

Q: Who among the Senseis today have been uchi deshis?

A: Well, if you speak of Senseis like; Yamada, Tamura, Tohei, Saotome and Kanai they all are students of Kisshomaru Ueshiba. They never went to Iwama and practised for O-Sensei. Chiba Sensei once stayed in Iwama for 3 months.

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Black Belt Magazine Vol 1 No. 2.

In an article about Tohei. "His contributions to the art of Aikido
are legend. He has devised many of the exercises and throws which are now standard and taught in all Aikido schools both in Japan and the United States."

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Black Belt 1966 Vol 4 No 5
"The uchideshi's day begins around 6 a.m., when he cleans the dojo and the grounds outside. The first class of the day starts at 6:30. This class is usually taught by Uyeshiba himself, the Osensei, which means the old teacher. The young uchideshi sit on their knees during this hour, which can be an uncomfortable and tiring experience.

The first class is usually taken up mostly with discussions about
God and nature - Uyeshiba doing the talking and the uchideshi
listening. It is in this hour that the young uchideshi is exposed to
Zen philosophy and the deeper meanings of aikido - its nonviolent and defensive perfection and understanding.

If this all sounds rather remote and difficult to grasp for a
Western reader, he may be interested to know that the young Japanese uchideshi often feels the same way. The 83-year-old Uyeshiba many times speaks about highly abstract topics, lapsing usually into ancient Japanese phraseology, so that his listeners often find it difficult to follow him.

When this long hour is over, the young uchideshi exuberantly spill
out onto the dojo floor for a half-hour exercise break. All the
restless energy pent up within seems to come out and they throw
themselves into the practice of their techniques with each other.

At 8 a.m. begins the real study of aikido techniques. This class
is taught by a different instructor every day, and is attended by a
large number of persons from outside the dojo. Sometimes this hour is taught by Uyeshiba's son, or Waka sensei as he is called. Sometimes Tohei sensei, the greatest of Uyeshiba's followers, instructs the class."

"If the uchideshi isn't helping out at this time, he may have a
private class of his own with Tohei or Waka sensei or some of the
other instructors."

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Black Belt 1973 Vol 11 No 11

Article by Jon Shirota about Tohei and Ki

Quotes Tohei in the article. "Everyone thinks that I learned ki from
Morihei Uyeshiba. That's not true. The Master taught me aikido; he did not teach me ki. I studied and learned it myself."

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Tohei's famous quote about all that he learned from Ueshiba was how to relax.

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Black Belt 1974 Vol 12 No 2

Article by Andy Adams about Yoshinkan.
Quotes Shioda, "I don't really feel that I broke away from the
mainstream of aikido since there was nothing to break away from back then. Uyeshiba sensei (the late Morihei Uyeshiba) was farming, his son Kisshomaru was working for some company, and the sensei's aikido dojo at Iwama in Ibaragi Prefecture was being rented out as a dance hall."

"But Shioda notes that Hirai, Koichi Tohei (chief instructor at the
WAF hombu) and even Kisshomaru Uyeshiba were not used as the sensei's uke and therefore didn't have to undergo the constantly rough treatment at the sensei's hands that he and a handful of others experienced."

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Aiki News Issue 010

Frank Doran: All of the energy kinds of games and practices, many of which Koichi Tohei developed are very useful tools to put someone in touch with this aliveness which is within you.

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Black Belt 1977 Vol 15 No 11
Article about Tohei.

The separation from Ueshiba's school evolved from a dispute over the relevance of the basic principles of ki and the methods of instructing students. Tohei said he had to break with Ueshiba's son, who inherited the leadership of the aikido headquarters, because of the man's inability to understand the principles of ki. Under the leadership of the young Ueshiba, aikido was unable to change. Tohei wanted to teach ki and the basic principle to every student.

"When I taught these principles in the headquarters," he said,
"many instructors talked behind my back and said, 'This is not the way O'Sensei taught aikido. Ki is nothing. Don't follow Tohei!' But this is not true. I found four basic principles of ki. But according to
Japanese custom whenever I discovered some principle I always
presented it to my teacher.

"So I said, 'I learned from my teacher and I teach you.' But they
would not listen. They replied, 'Then why does Master Ueshiba's son say his father never teach like that?'

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Jason Casteel wrote: We have video of Ueshiba doing a good number of those exercises himself. So it's hard to say that they're not what he did. That doesn't mean anyone else was doing them properly or address why more attention wasn't paid to making sure people knew what proper was, but that's another topic.

Wasn't clear in that. Sorry. I actually meant that he did them differently (worked on internal training) and that he didn't do the exercises the way Modern Aikido people do them. Not that he didn't do them at all. Ueshiba also did farming but he didn't do that the way most farmers work.

Jason Casteel wrote: That's really just a basic training exercise Mark. Kind of like hitting a baseball off a tee. It's not meant to be the end result.

Still, if you use "ground path" and you only have it going one way, you're not doing what I'm doing. And it won't get you to where I'm going, basic exercise or not. Not saying one is bad or wrong, just saying it isn't what I'm doing and I don't think it was how Ueshiba did things. IMO, of course.

Mark

Mark Murray wrote: Black Belt 1973 Vol 11 No 11 Article by Jon Shirota about Tohei and Ki Quotes Tohei in the article. "Everyone thinks that I learned ki from Morihei Uyeshiba. That's not true. The Master taught me aikido; he did not teach me ki. I studied and learned it myself." === Tohei's famous quote about all that he learned from Ueshiba was how to relax. ===

Citations are always great, but often individual quotes don't really convey the subtlety or the complexity of what someone really means.

Using the above quotes as an example... Those were done in 1973 according to your citation. Tohei would soon split from Aikikai and there were already a *lot* of problems brewing. Lots of things let up to the split including a lot of personal issues between Tohei and any number of other people. And, heck, Tohei and Kisshomaru were related through marriage. It was a royal mess of personal and "professional" issues for a number of years leading up to the split.

Our late sensei, Rod Kobayashi, spent a great deal of time talking with Tohei about his experiences both before the break and post break. He used to say that he kept copious notes of his time with O-sensei and tried his best to categorize and "systematize" what he was learning. The version of the story we we were told about Tohei was that his experiences at the Tempukai helped him develop a framework "within which" to understand what he was seeing being done by Ueshiba Morihei. So when I read the above quote I read it through my experience but also through the lenses of knowing that he was already feeling tremendous pressures from divisions within the Aikikai. He was feeling unappreciated for his 18 years of being the chief instructor (a position given him by Ueshiba and a position he held through the last, what, 15 years of Ueshiba's life. I doubt he would have been allowed to hold that position for so long without Ueshiba Morhei's explicit permission).

So keep in mind the contentious mood of the period. But also keep in mind the limitations of translation and the loss of subtlety involved in any correspondence. We evolved out of Ki Society and we were taught that while Tohei did a great deal of the systematization of the syllabus as well as the development of specific ki exercises and aiki taiso, there was *never* the implication that what he was trying to teach with those methods was anything other than what he learned from Ueshiba. My understanding of his quotes were always tempered with two things. One was acknowledging that Ueshiba Morihei wasn't big on explanations and that Tohei relied on his prior Judo experience as well as the framework offered by Yoga to understand it. That does not mean there wasn't a transmission from Ueshiba to Tohei, just that Tohei relied on outside influences in order to understand what he was being shown.

The second "tempering" was that at the time of those quotes Tohei was feeling isolated and under attack. And he was about to split off completely probably knowing full well what that would mean. If you look at the Aikikai post Tohei you'll find that in many ways his contributions are ignored or glossed over. Which is absurd -- he was integral for 18 years at the time things were being formulated. But because he left, well, he no longer exists for some.

Anyway, be careful about cherry picking quotes. In discussing the topic with those who knew Tohei at the time the picture painted was quite different than what you seem to want to imply today.

Mark Murray wrote: Do you have anything that would help show this? Most things that I've found don't allude to what you've posted. Tohei learned from the Tempukai. Kisshomaru and Tohei took over the hombu dojo after the war and kept it alive and running with their own teachings. They changed things.

I'm just following the bouncing ball of logic and that logic doesn't support that Tohei gained his skills from what was essentially a yoga school. That's not to say he didn't learn things to help his understanding, but his core skills didn't come from there.

1. Ueshiba approved of what he was doing. I have plenty of books and even a video made a decade before he died that show Tohei doing the taiso, breathing exercises and his four basic principles all with the stamp of approval of Ueshiba.

2. He was the chosen son. Were it not for K.Ueshiba, Aikido would have been Tohei's, lock stock and barrrel. Of all the post war guys, though Tohei was also a pre-war guy, Tohei was the favored student. Heck Ueshiba made him his chief instructor, taiso and all. That's a significant stamp of approval there.

3. Again, the videos and books. We can see Ueshiba doing his exercises. Then you go look at Tohei's taiso and you can fairly easily see that they are just cut down versions of things Ueshiba was doing. Ikkyo, funekogi, kokyuho, choyaku, furi tama, etc, exist on both sides.

Wasn't clear in that. Sorry. I actually meant that he did them differently (worked on internal training) and that he didn't do the exercises the way Modern Aikido people do them. Not that he didn't do them at all. Ueshiba also did farming but he didn't do that the way most farmers work

I don't disagree with that, but again, that is the problem. Nobody was specifically told HOW to do anything. That goes back to Shioda and the rest of teh bunch. It was watch me, follow me and pick up what you can. Tohei did an good job of taking the things that he and obviously Ueshiba thought were needed and making them into solo exercises, but he still hamstrung the whole system by not giving people the information to really understand what they're doing. Realistically though, that was the budo system of the time. You don't just give it away. It may not be great for all of us who came later, but that's the way it was.

Transmission issues aside, if you look at Tohei's method, he covers a a lot of core skills. Connecting the body, drawing support from the ground, relaxation, weight down, intent, moving from center (flubbed as hips by most, but I'm still not sure the japanese fully got that one anyway). His taiso offers a way to work on all of these things (again, assuming you know) alone. They cover a huge array of body movements so that one can practice moving just about any way you might ever need to move while working on those core principles. Next you add some resistance via his ki testing. You take it up another notch with resistive waza. That's not to say it's all perfect, but there's a good collection of core skills and ways to work on them at a variety of resistance levels. Then if you want to step out and insult some judoka and see what you can do, go for it.

Still, if you use "ground path" and you only have it going one way, you're not doing what I'm doing. And it won't get you to where I'm going, basic exercise or not. Not saying one is bad or wrong, just saying it isn't what I'm doing and I don't think it was how Ueshiba did things. IMO, of course.

I'm not sure anyone ever said it has to go only one way. Doing different things with the forces inside your body doesn't take away from the core skills that are at work. It's just different progressions of the same core skills.


Oh one thing I forgot to add up top. ANyone who takes Tohei's quotes about what he learned, where and from whom, considering the bad blood that existed between them, is crazy.

Keith Larman wrote: Citations are always great, but often individual quotes don't really convey the subtlety or the complexity of what someone really means. Using the above quotes as an example... Those were done in 1973 according to your citation. Tohei would soon split from Aikikai and there were already a *lot* of problems brewing. Lots of things let up to the split including a lot of personal issues between Tohei and any number of other people. And, heck, Tohei and Kisshomaru were related through marriage. It was a royal mess of personal and "professional" issues for a number of years leading up to the split. Our late sensei, Rod Kobayashi, spent a great deal of time talking with Tohei about his experiences both before the break and post break. He used to say that he kept copious notes of his time with O-sensei and tried his best to categorize and "systematize" what he was learning. The version of the story we we were told about Tohei was that his experiences at the Tempukai helped him develop a framework "within which" to understand what he was seeing being done by Ueshiba Morihei. So when I read the above quote I read it through my experience but also through the lenses of knowing that he was already feeling tremendous pressures from divisions within the Aikikai. He was feeling unappreciated for his 18 years of being the chief instructor (a position given him by Ueshiba and a position he held through the last, what, 15 years of Ueshiba's life. I doubt he would have been allowed to hold that position for so long without Ueshiba Morhei's explicit permission). So keep in mind the contentious mood of the period. But also keep in mind the limitations of translation and the loss of subtlety involved in any correspondence. We evolved out of Ki Society and we were taught that while Tohei did a great deal of the systematization of the syllabus as well as the development of specific ki exercises and aiki taiso, there was *never* the implication that what he was trying to teach with those methods was anything other than what he learned from Ueshiba. My understanding of his quotes were always tempered with two things. One was acknowledging that Ueshiba Morihei wasn't big on explanations and that Tohei relied on his prior Judo experience as well as the framework offered by Yoga to understand it. That does not mean there wasn't a transmission from Ueshiba to Tohei, just that Tohei relied on outside influences in order to understand what he was being shown. The second "tempering" was that at the time of those quotes Tohei was feeling isolated and under attack. And he was about to split off completely probably knowing full well what that would mean. If you look at the Aikikai post Tohei you'll find that in many ways his contributions are ignored or glossed over. Which is absurd -- he was integral for 18 years at the time things were being formulated. But because he left, well, he no longer exists for some. Anyway, be careful about cherry picking quotes. In discussing the topic with those who knew Tohei at the time the picture painted was quite different than what you seem to want to imply today.

Well said.

Hi Keith,

I think Tohei was great at what he did. What did he do? He showed up at a time when Ueshiba wasn't really teaching the secret to his martial abilities, when Ueshiba left and secluded himself at Iwama, when the war was going downhill to post war, when most of the old students were no longer around, and he worked and trained and did what he could to become like Ueshiba.

I don't have to imply much of this stuff. It's out there. Tohei went to the Tempukai as did other students. Many of the post war students learned from Tohei. None of that is to dismiss any of them or their hard work.

Transmission from Ueshiba to Tohei? The fact is that Ueshiba really didn't teach aiki. He demonstrated on students. Used students for his own purposes. Talked in cryptic spiritual gobbledygook that no one really understood. Traveled extensively. And when he was actually at hombu, he only taught the morning class. That's when he felt like teaching. And half that class sometimes was taken up with lecturing.

And while Tohei (and the rest of the students) did the best that he could under those circumstances, IMO, Tohei didn't learn the full complement of aiki. Just look at Shioda after the war. What did he do? He didn't stick around Kisshomaru and Tohei for aiki, he went to Kodo.

As much hard work that was done by all the post war students, I don't believe there was any transmission from Ueshiba on the way of aiki. Not for lack of those students efforts, mind you, but for lack of Ueshiba wanting to pass it on. Because, IMO, Ueshiba knew exactly what physical training to do to train aiki. He went through it and some of his prewar students reaped the reward of that kind of training. Oh, they didn't get it all either, but the training then was more overt in what was being worked on. Post war, that was done and gone. IMO, Ueshiba didn't care to go back to it.

Unless you are specifically shown, you'll never get aiki. There are specific attributes/skills/abilities that are not going to be "deduced" or "stolen". And Ueshiba didn't do that post war. Thus, Kisshomaru and Tohei created Modern Aikido.

No disagreement that Tohei's time with the Tempukai allowed him to develop a framework. And there was no doubt about the skills that Tohei had. He was very good. But, framework only gets you the basics and allows you to start building the basics. IMO, compared to Ueshiba, Tohei's skills/abilities were the basic level. Ain't that a kick in the pants? What's that leave the rest of us who aren't even close to Tohei's level?

Mark

Jason Casteel wrote: I'm just following the bouncing ball of logic and that logic doesn't support that Tohei gained his skills from what was essentially a yoga school. That's not to say he didn't learn things to help his understanding, but his core skills didn't come from there. 1. Ueshiba approved of what he was doing. I have plenty of books and even a video made a decade before he died that show Tohei doing the taiso, breathing exercises and his four basic principles all with the stamp of approval of Ueshiba.

Never said that those exercises weren't done by either Ueshiba or Tohei. Questioned the validity of stating that Ueshiba gave his stamp of approval. If we take things like you showed, then pretty much everyone got Ueshiba's stamp of approval. Tomiki had Ueshiba's stamp of approval, too. Ever hear of what Kisshomaru thought of what Tomiki did?

Ueshiba approved in the general Japanese manner. Doesn't mean there was an actual stamp of approval for what was going on.

Jason Casteel wrote: 2. He was the chosen son. Were it not for K.Ueshiba, Aikido would have been Tohei's, lock stock and barrrel. Of all the post war guys, though Tohei was also a pre-war guy, Tohei was the favored student. Heck Ueshiba made him his chief instructor, taiso and all. That's a significant stamp of approval there.

How many "chosen sons" were there in Ueshiba's life? And Mochizuki was made a chief instructor when he showed up, too. Who do you follow, then? Mochizuki or Tohei? Who's doing the "stamp of approval" aikido?

Jason Casteel wrote: 3. Again, the videos and books. We can see Ueshiba doing his exercises. Then you go look at Tohei's taiso and you can fairly easily see that they are just cut down versions of things Ueshiba was doing. Ikkyo, funekogi, kokyuho, choyaku, furi tama, etc, exist on both sides.

Sure. They look similar. Then again, most of the world does them too and all those people look fairly similar when they do these exercises. Must be doing the stamp of approval method, then, right? Course, if what Ueshiba was doing was entirely different than what Tohei was doing when both were doing those very same exercises, it would make for a very different meaning for "stamp of approval" ...

Jason Casteel wrote: Transmission issues aside, if you look at Tohei's method, he covers a a lot of core skills. Connecting the body, drawing support from the ground, relaxation, weight down, intent, moving from center (flubbed as hips by most, but I'm still not sure the japanese fully got that one anyway). His taiso offers a way to work on all of these things (again, assuming you know) alone. They cover a huge array of body movements so that one can practice moving just about any way you might ever need to move while working on those core principles. Next you add some resistance via his ki testing. You take it up another notch with resistive waza. That's not to say it's all perfect, but there's a good collection of core skills and ways to work on them at a variety of resistance levels. Then if you want to step out and insult some judoka and see what you can do, go for it.

Actually, I disagree that they cover a lot of core skills. IMO, they only cover a few core skills. So, if you think about that ... how does that paint Ueshiba's aiki? A little further down the road and a lot more complex than what people think right now. Wouldn't that be something if true?

Jason Casteel wrote: I'm not sure anyone ever said it has to go only one way. Doing different things with the forces inside your body doesn't take away from the core skills that are at work. It's just different progressions of the same core skills.

Only if Tohei was close to doing what Ueshiba was doing. If Ueshiba was actually doing other internal skills or abilities than what Tohei knew, then we get into a very different conversation where your above post really only applies to the beginning level basics and not to aiki ... something to think about ...

Mark Murray wrote: Never said that those exercises weren't done by either Ueshiba or Tohei. Questioned the validity of stating that Ueshiba gave his stamp of approval. If we take things like you showed, then pretty much everyone got Ueshiba's stamp of approval. Tomiki had Ueshiba's stamp of approval, too. Ever hear of what Kisshomaru thought of what Tomiki did? Ueshiba approved in the general Japanese manner. Doesn't mean there was an actual stamp of approval for what was going on. How many "chosen sons" were there in Ueshiba's life? And Mochizuki was made a chief instructor when he showed up, too. Who do you follow, then? Mochizuki or Tohei? Who's doing the "stamp of approval" aikido? Sure. They look similar. Then again, most of the world does them too and all those people look fairly similar when they do these exercises. Must be doing the stamp of approval method, then, right? Course, if what Ueshiba was doing was entirely different than what Tohei was doing when both were doing those very same exercises, it would make for a very different meaning for "stamp of approval" ... Actually, I disagree that they cover a lot of core skills. IMO, they only cover a few core skills. So, if you think about that ... how does that paint Ueshiba's aiki? A little further down the road and a lot more complex than what people think right now. Wouldn't that be something if true? Only if Tohei was close to doing what Ueshiba was doing. If Ueshiba was actually doing other internal skills or abilities than what Tohei knew, then we get into a very different conversation where your above post really only applies to the beginning level basics and not to aiki ... something to think about ...

You're just talking around the facts now. That fact being, Tohei was charged with presenting Ueshiba's aikido to the world and the way in which he did it was fully approved by Ueshiba.

Well then go ahead and tell me what you think those core skills are and we can better discuss things. IMO aiki is just usage.

Hi Mark,
Thank you for such a throrough reply! I'll have to think about this a "bit" more I'm sure, but some quick thoughts:
W/re: the exercises:
You seem to be saying the exercises needed to develop this ability were removed and replaced by poorer ones, ones which essentially prevent the learning of aiki, which implies a great deal simply comes from the exercises themselves. For starters, why not make public what those exercises are if so much is couched there? I understand there's more to it than mere forms of movement (the exercises), but if the exercises are such a major factor in their own right, why not put them out there for people to play around with?
I understand people can develop bad habits with them as well, but it can't be any worse than what's out there now can it?

Matthew Gano wrote: Hi Mark, Thank you for such a throrough reply! I'll have to think about this a "bit" more I'm sure, but some quick thoughts: W/re: the exercises: You seem to be saying the exercises needed to develop this ability were removed and replaced by poorer ones, ones which essentially prevent the learning of aiki, which implies a great deal simply comes from the exercises themselves. For starters, why not make public what those exercises are if so much is couched there? I understand there's more to it than mere forms of movement (the exercises), but if the exercises are such a major factor in their own right, why not put them out there for people to play around with? I understand people can develop bad habits with them as well, but it can't be any worse than what's out there now can it?

The exercises look the same ... in outward form. You can see Ueshiba doing them just as you can see Tohei doing them just as you can see the whole world doing them. But, what they are actually training is completely different. Ueshiba is not training the same thing that pretty much everyone else is trying to do when doing these exercises. There are specific ways to work those exercises that Modern Aikido lacks but Ueshiba did. The exercises weren't removed, but the actual specifics of what to *do* or work on when doing these exercises aren't there.

Mark:

You missed my point completely. I come from an academic background and I *fully* support using citations to support a position. You do it a *lot*. The problem is that I see you using citations which given a larger context and understanding are questionable at best as to whether they really support the points you are trying to make. It does not follow that I agree or disagree with the point. What I was trying to point out is that it is a bit misleading to post citations that you know can be very misleading. Anyone with any experience in the subtlety of the history simply does not take those quotes by Tohei-sensei at "face value". Devoid of the larger context of when they were made and the larger question of what he was talking about, they are misleading. So even if they "on the face of it" seem to support the position you want to forward, I am saying it is not really "kosher" to use them as supporting statements, especially when you are aware they are missing a larger context. Those not familiar with the history or the "background events" around which the statements were made will end up making judgments based on misleading statements.

I was not addressing the validity of what you were saying. Just asking for more nuanced usage of quotes since a number of the ones you used struck me as "cherry picked" and out of context.

Like I said, it has nothing to do with whether I agree with your position or not (and frankly I'm a lot closer to you than you may realize). It has to do with presenting the information fairly and accurately.

Back to your regularly scheduled program...

Oh, I have to agree with Jason. The simple fact was that Tohei was appointed Chief Instructor in the 50's and was pretty much without question the favored guy by Ueshiba Morihei. This continued for a very long time while Morihei was alive. It wasn't just "the old man let whatever happened, happen". No, he was appointed while Morihei was still quite active, alert and involved.

None of this "proves" anything regarding transmission. But it does show that Morihei was quite happy with Tohei, what he was doing, and how he did things at least compared to the others available at that time to take on the same role.

Mark Murray wrote: The exercises look the same ... in outward form. You can see Ueshiba doing them just as you can see Tohei doing them just as you can see the whole world doing them. But, what they are actually training is completely different. Ueshiba is not training the same thing that pretty much everyone else is trying to do when doing these exercises...The exercises weren't removed, but the actual specifics of what to *do* or work on when doing these exercises aren't there.

I think I understand now. It's semantics, but I wouldn't say the exercises themselves are lacking, but rather that the instruction of them is lacking...based on your view of Aikido in general. So it would be a lack of explicit instruction which allows people to practice the same exercises while achieving different results. Theoretically, those who were taught "better" (in terms of aiki-related exercise) should be able to produce equally better students, though I seem to have taken the impression the pre-war schools aren't much better off at producing reliable aiki on the whole than post-war (rather, I should ask, for example, "did Shioda produce other Shiodas?"). I realize I may have misread this, however. This is why i said I think a big part of learning aiki must be in the individual's intensity and accuity for training. So where you said it's (1) or (2), I'm guessing it's (1) and (2).
...All guesses at best on my part, though. Again, i know I have very little point of reference. I'm just now beginning to take a serious look at where I essentially left off over a decade ago.

I am not a fan of how many people are using "ground path". (Note: Take that as the usage, not a disregard of the meaning of "ground path".) Most people think of "ground path" in terms of a one way pathway in their body.

I suppose most might, I couldn't say. Personally speaking, I always picture my physics 101 diagrams which account for equal and opposite reactions to forces, so when I imagine a "groundpath" from shizentai for example, I imagine a line extending equally up as down ("to infinity and beyond" ), my center representing a kind of net-effect-point, about which other "lesser" points (e.g. shoulders) rest and move. None of this exactly creates a good connection to where ever my base happens to be, but it's a way of organizing the experience around the most fundemental forces relating to movement.
Where I believe I have balanced (more or less) the expression of "up and down" (speaking only of the vertical axis) within my body, i have felt light and powerful, again, relatively speaking (the bridge floating between Heaven and Earth?).
Beyond this simple mental model is the visceral experience of how those net-forces translate through the body tissues themselves, which I have always viewed as requiring the feeling of it. Unless we get lucky and happen upon some good degree of internal balance, this requires outside interaction to experience.
Ok time for another break for me. I've probably spoken more than I ought to considering my lack of experience, but FWIW...
Looking forward to learning more,
Take care,
Matt