Starting the internal aiki quest- my experience with Aunkai

Boaz Neumann wrote: Thanks Kevin. Regarding the link and the stability ball: I like that kind of work, think I'm gonna buy one. I wonder how you imply the structure principles with it? Is what the guy does in the clip with the medicine ball, what you meant? I understood it differently. I thought you meant holding it in the air, supporting it through your structure? Anyway Akuzawa sensei showed that one (I think the concept is like ganseki otoshi) but more impressive IMO was: while he was in a wide stance, he held a heavier guy on one thigh, and kept exerting force and connection to another person on the other side. BTW, could you expand on where the Aunkai method differs from others you've trained with? (in concepts/practice)? Boaz.

On the Medicine Ball, yes, I meant holding it in the air and supporting it through structure, not what he did in the video, that was just a smaller ball to work on the same thing as the bigger ball.

Aunkai and How it differs?

Well, I don't have a whole lot of experience with Aunkai other than one weekend with Ark and Rob.

However, where I think it differs is that it is ALOT more principle centered on developing structure than anything else.

Probably more what Aikido should be like I think, but we tend to focus on techniques more I think, at least in what we do in my organization....techniques to teach the principles that it. Ark uses a different methodology than what I experience in aikido...that is all.

In BJJ, well we are concerned with BJJ. I think the "internal stuff" comes my "accident" to be honest. Good guys intuitively figure it out, again through practicing technique and non-compliance. The non-compliance is what is key for BJJ as to be successful, you have to learn to move efficiently. The good guys pick it up, but have no idea what they are doing when they do it.

BJJ is more about "good Jiu-Jitsu" though I think.

Or something like that...it is hard to really write about the differences as this IA stuff is so subtle and I don't know enough about it except it feels good when you get it right.

Lynn-
Thanks for the elaboration. seems like you've been around this stuff for a while. do you feel like your starting something completely new, or just getting more in depth with something familiar?

David-
Thanks for the explanation. did you try to "play" with these things
(finding the limits of your structure, breathing differently... etc' )?

Richard-
I'd like to second Mr. Sigman's request.
I think I get it the Idea behind your descriptions and it might be similar to stuff we practiced in Iwama (yet more progressive).Will definitely try it.

Kevin-
I'd love to see some footage of the medicine ball practice.
It sounds like it's relevant to many principles in the IA.
Regarding to the BJJ, do you relate to Richard's remarks?

Boaz.

Boaz Neumann wrote: David- Thanks for the explanation. did you try to "play" with these things (finding the limits of your structure, breathing differently... etc' )? Boaz.

All the time.
Repetitive activity favors that.

One of things I've found challenging about learning Aikido is the repetition is of a different sort, has different levels, and has been more difficult to understand in the body (i.e., my "dial-in" comment --kihon ikkyo took much more unpacking than even a complex stroke like the butterfly before I remotely started to feel fluid).

Also, while I've heard my friend who teaches CMA remark that the beginning students he's had who had the most supple spines were collegiate swimmers, swimming also adapts the body to being supported by the water. One reason swimmers come in strange shapes, I expect.

That's why, for me, these other activities confirm only some basic facts.

I wouldn't want to go beyond that, and I was happy to hear Kevin remark he'd had a similar kind of experience.

By the way, I appreciate the way you're keeping a few conversations going at once. It's expanded things nicely.

Regards,

DH

Hi Mike,

I have very little exposure to Iwama stylists...but here is a video that may be interesting.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?...revision&cd=1#

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale wrote: I have very little exposure to Iwama stylists...but here is a video that may be interesting. http://video.google.com/videosearch?...revision&cd=1#

Thanks, Ron. Good video. What I was interested in was seeing how "relaxed" the training was in the perspective of Boaz. Often we use the same terms but the contextual meaning is different and I was trying to get a baseline of what was meant in the original description. I guess my thinking was that the description *sounded* just right, but then the rest of the comments confused me, which made me mentally stop and wonder how much I might be mis-reading into the comments about Aunkai, and so on. In other words I was trying to get my baseline understanding of his comments clarified. Good stuff to read though.

The guy in the video... the Macedonian teacher... uses a lot of "structure", which is effective and gives him added strength, but it's an easy road to take that doesn't lead you very far if you're intent on developing a full complement of "internal" skills. I see a lot of it and I'm not disparaging it in any way (hey... it's effective if you're technique-oriented), but my personal suggestion would be to go a somewhat different path if the objective is to gain fullblown ki/kokyu skills.

Best.

Mike

Hi Mike, I tend to agree with your assesment. If you select some of the other links on that page you will find an example of Saito Sensei performing the same exericise. Quite interesting. I would be interested in any visual assesment you might have of any differences between the two.

I actually MEANT to link to Saito Sensei's video...oops.

Best,
Ron (blame the subnets again... )

Boaz and Mike

I don't have any videos I can post as I'm currently traveling around SE Asia on a 12-month sabbatical. The type of exercises I've referred to are what we call "sub-sets" and are just part of our normal training. I imagine you would find similar examples in other Iwama style dojos. I've had a quick search and haven't found anything similar on the net but that's not surprising as people tend to post videos of technique, not preparatory exercises. The link posted by Ron is an example of technique and form and not what I am talking about. I'll contact one of my students and see if he can put something together for you.

In the meantime I'm happy to discuss our approach further, if you're interested. It's something that my teacher, who was an uchi deshi with M. Saito Sensei, has been working on for close to 20-years. Unfortunately he's "old school" and doesn't believe in posting video on the internet, or participating in forum discussions. Sad but true!

Boaz

With regard to sending students off to train in BJJ I want to emphasize that they are not going along to simply ‘test' the BJJ guys but have a genuine interest in cross training. (In fact, I lost a couple of senior students who fell in love with BJJ and never came back!) The usual sequence of events is they are put with white belts, then blues, before gaining the notice of more senior BJJ belts who become intrigued as to how they are able to control their students without any BJJ training. Of course, once they start to roll with purple belts upwards things become a lot more difficult! I've noticed though that as they progress in their BJJ training they often lose some of their internal skills, such as they are, as they become more focused on learning new technique and developing muscle strength.

As Kevin has mentioned, a lot of senior BJJ people have internal skills but they are not identified as such. IMO this is very similar to Iwama training. Both would probably benefit from a more systemized approach to internal skills development as taught by Akuzawa, Mike and Dan Harden and others.

By the way- I'm not an orthodox Iwama player. In some circles I'd probably be regarded as a heretic.

Richard

In some circles I'd probably be regarded as a heretic.

Heh, that's an organization for ya!

Best,
Ron

In some circles, that would be high praise.

Mike and Ron,

I agree with your assessment of the video example, which is different to how we train. Iwama style can be quite rigid and structured and is often trained that way intentionally. I had the opportunity for hands on with Saito Sensei on a couple of occasions and the feeling with him was quite different- as you might expect.

I am not saying that Iwama style training has any advantage in developing internal skills, its just that it does have particular methods of training that if used with the correct mindset and guidance can bring tangible results. But I guess that could equally apply to any style or method of training.

As to heresy- well its a lot more fun!

Richard

Hi Richard,

Please understand that I am in no way qualified to disparage that method of training, nor was it my intention to do so (which is why I qualified what little opinion I have right up front). The little Iwama training I have participated in was fantastic, and very refreshing in many ways. I do have some questions about some facets of it in terms of internal strength development, but I'm such a novice at that that my small opinions really don't matter.

Best, and have a Happy New Year! I look forward to seeing any videos your students might post.

Ron

OK, thanks for the pointer to the Saito video, Ron. That's a good one, too. Even better. I never knew much about Saito back in the day. Sure I had his 5-volume set, etc., but there weren't any films, etc., to watch and I never encountered any Iwama types.

Saito is pretty powerful, ki-wise, however he pays a lot of attention to technical details (which any good martial-artist should do). If "internal" was all it took, there wouldn't be so many sophisticated martial-arts out there... everyone would just study jin/kokyu stuff. The point being that "internal" is nice and it's a definite big advantage to have, but it's not everything. I've mentioned the old saw before: Martial-art without internal strength is not right; internal strength without good martial-art is not right, either.

I think what happens is that many Iwama guys, just like a lot of Yoshinkan, Aikikai, etc.,do also, get too involved with technique and appearances. Most of Shioda's people actually don't appear to be doing the same art that Shioda did and I can see where perhaps the same problem. Heck, I get somewhat startled in many dojos where I see the teacher maintaining a good posture but many of the students read his upright posture wrong so they stiffen their back and do what I call the "Hakama Strut", a totally different and too-stiff way of carrying oneself. It's easy to go off course just by doing something wrong yet very simple.

And my apologies for the post where I said "Boaz" but I meant Richard's comments about "relaxed". Some of the training sounds intriguing; my thought is that Aikido has and always had some good elements of "internal" training in it and that if people are looking for data and inputs on how to train "internal" stuff, one of the first places to look is right in Aikido. However the problem is that many of the correct exercises do no good when they're done wrongly. But if people with a foothold in some basic skills start looking hard enough in Iwama-style, Yoshinkan, Aikikai, etc., they can probably reassemble the picture and do good things in an Aikido way, rather than having to garner exercises, etc., from outside of Aikido.

Of course some people note that Aikido as it's now practiced is pretty ineffective as a martial-art. I agree with that, but I'd note there is still an awful lot about Ueshiba's Aikido that is still simply not known by most people, so maybe it's smarter to leave it open that Aikido may well be more effective than is commonly acknowledged. If someone is having to do MMA, Systema, or whatever in order to "supplement" their Aikido, maybe it's because they really didn't know Aikido rather than Aikido fell short?

Best.

Mike

Boaz Neumann wrote: Lynn- Thanks for the elaboration. seems like you've been around this stuff for a while. do you feel like your starting something completely new, or just getting more in depth with something familiar?

IMHO, I believe there is a lot hidden in plain sight. Its always been there, I just wasn't ready to see it. So while its familiar to me, its always completely new.

Boaz wrote:

Kevin- I'd love to see some footage of the medicine ball practice. It sounds like it's relevant to many principles in the IA. Regarding to the BJJ, do you relate to Richard's remarks? Boaz.

LOL, if Mike Sigman won't do video, I am not about to! I'd look like a idiot and I really wouldn't have any clue what I was showing you OR if it was actually "internal" at all! My thing with the ball is about "feel" and "balance". Moving a point out away from your center and then trying to center back under it again using your body vice using your arms etc. Also, probably more a good core building/connection exercise than anything else. Just pick a ball up and start moving with it.

I might post some basic exercises with the medicine ball in the future, but they will be just that...basic exercises. Nothing earth shattering by any stretch.

Richard's remarks about a IA guy being able to stop or slow down a BJJ guy with IA skills? Yeah I can see that. Rob John can probably definitely do that from my limited hands on with him. I think Richard is correct in his assessment that it is fleeting at best and then you move on and they don't know what to do next. Alot of BJJ and Grappling is about moving and position so you have that going as well. IA skills are not the ultimate "bomb" in fighitng as there is alot going on in many respects....but certainly the guys that have an understanding of IA skills, will be well ahead once they learn the "moves" and "timing".

Richard Sanchez wrote:

With regard to sending students off to train in BJJ I want to emphasize that they are not going along to simply ‘test' the BJJ guys but have a genuine interest in cross training. (In fact, I lost a couple of senior students who fell in love with BJJ and never came back!) The usual sequence of events is they are put with white belts, then blues, before gaining the notice of more senior BJJ belts who become intrigued as to how they are able to control their students without any BJJ training. Of course, once they start to roll with purple belts upwards things become a lot more difficult! I've noticed though that as they progress in their BJJ training they often lose some of their internal skills, such as they are, as they become more focused on learning new technique and developing muscle strength. As Kevin has mentioned, a lot of senior BJJ people have internal skills but they are not identified as such. IMO this is very similar to Iwama training. Both would probably benefit from a more systemized approach to internal skills development as taught by Akuzawa, Mike and Dan Harden and others.

Thanks for the comments on this. As you know, once you get up into purple, brown, and black belt range of BJJ it becomes alot about experience and timing and simply knowing what to do next. that whole OODA things. You could have all the IA skills in the world, and not be able to necessarily get ahead of the technique.

I agree that MOST if not all of us would benefit from a more systemized approach to training. I know I have begun to adjust the way I train these days and I believe it to be helping!

Kevin Leavitt wrote: LOL, if Mike Sigman won't do video, I am not about to!

Hmmmm.... lemme do a quick Google, 'cause I thought I saw... Yep.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=Mike+Sigman

No need to use little ole me as an example or an excuse anymore. Now you can post a vid!

Glückliches neues Jahr!

Mike

Ron Tisdale wrote: Hi Richard, Please understand that I am in no way qualified to disparage that method of training, nor was it my intention to do so (which is why I qualified what little opinion I have right up front). The little Iwama training I have participated in was fantastic, and very refreshing in many ways. I do have some questions about some facets of it in terms of internal strength development, but I'm such a novice at that that my small opinions really don't matter. Best, and have a Happy New Year! I look forward to seeing any videos your students might post. Ron

Hi Ron,

Happy New Year to your and yours too

I didn't take what you said as disparaging so no problem. I'm not saying that Iwama training has any special handle on internal training. In fact, it is rarely mentioned in most dojos I have visited. I think it is more like Mike said, that the foundation for internal training is already in Aikido- if we could see it. And, of course, this applies to all styles

Richard

Mike Sigman wrote: I think what happens is that many Iwama guys, just like a lot of Yoshinkan, Aikikai, etc.,do also, get too involved with technique and appearances. Most of Shioda's people actually don't appear to be doing the same art that Shioda did and I can see where perhaps the same problem. Heck, I get somewhat startled in many dojos where I see the teacher maintaining a good posture but many of the students read his upright posture wrong so they stiffen their back and do what I call the "Hakama Strut", a totally different and too-stiff way of carrying oneself. It's easy to go off course just by doing something wrong yet very simple. And my apologies for the post where I said "Boaz" but I meant Richard's comments about "relaxed". Some of the training sounds intriguing; my thought is that Aikido has and always had some good elements of "internal" training in it and that if people are looking for data and inputs on how to train "internal" stuff, one of the first places to look is right in Aikido. However the problem is that many of the correct exercises do no good when they're done wrongly. But if people with a foothold in some basic skills start looking hard enough in Iwama-style, Yoshinkan, Aikikai, etc., they can probably reassemble the picture and do good things in an Aikido way, rather than having to garner exercises, etc., from outside of Aikido.

Mike, I guess the problem is that we are constantly reinventing the wheel, unless we receive informed direction from outside. There are good elements of internal training still within Aikido but sometimes we can't see the wood for the trees. A lot of the current training does, as you say, focus on technique and appearance. And as you well know, once you introduce internal training methods and all that that entails, such as changes in intent, structure and developing power in a different way, you end up with something that doesn't look like the style you started with. Even a simple change such as getting students to place less emphasis on their rear leg for stability, changes the form and the way they move. And, of course, they go through a fairly long period of rewiring which plays havoc with their training. Try explaining that to a grading panel who are looking for orthodox forms and stances!

I am certain that if we had had outside input a decade or so ago we would be a lot further along. I was too indoctrinated and knew too little then to introduce it myself. Nowadays its a different matter as I run an independent dojo, (although I'm still only an IA embryo!). The exercise I gave as an example was a natural progression from the Tai No Henko you saw on the videos so it was there all the time. Whether we are doing it in a way that fits with the current perception of what IA is, I don't know- I'd never heard the term "internal aiki" until I joined Aikiweb!

Kind Regards,
Richard

Mike Sigman wrote: Hmmmm.... lemme do a quick Google, 'cause I thought I saw... Yep. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=Mike+Sigman No need to use little ole me as an example or an excuse anymore. Now you can post a vid! Glückliches neues Jahr! Mike

Eh gads, man, you've been pixilated!

Thanks for posting the link and your thoughts.

DH

David Henderson wrote: Eh gads, man, you've been pixilated!

Well, that was more than 10 years ago. However, I look exactly the same now as I did then. Except that I look older and fatter.

Mike

Mike Sigman wrote: Hmmmm.... lemme do a quick Google, 'cause I thought I saw... Yep. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=Mike+Sigman No need to use little ole me as an example or an excuse anymore. Now you can post a vid! Glückliches neues Jahr! Mike

touche! you look a little younger! Happy New year to you to!

Hi Guys,

Been away for a while now (drafted- for those reading the news..)

Thanx for so much good input!

Could any of you guys out there, practicing or intending to practice IA, point out the IA skills they'd like to acquire, preferably in order of importance, chronological order, and maybe a schedule of how long you assess it should take to reach these skills?
(yes I know it depends etc'..)

Thanks,

Boaz

Boaz Neumann wrote: Could any of you guys out there, practicing or intending to practice IA, point out the IA skills they'd like to acquire, preferably in order of importance, chronological order, and maybe a schedule of how long you assess it should take to reach these skills?

The problem with getting IA skills (they're more properly, in an Aikido discussion, "Ki" skills) is in getting good instruction. Some people have a little piece here or a little piece there, although most don't have any of those Ki skills and use Aikido techniques with "normal" strength".

Tohei had probably the best idea and approach to putting Ki skills back into Aikido, but he wasn't very clear about it and I'm sure he also had tradition holding him back from showing too much. The main problem with Tohei's attempt was that as he split from Hombu Dojo he was simply ignored and discredited by Hombu-lineage teachers, so Tohei's innovative teachings were dutifully disregarded by the rank and file.

The point is though that Tohei (I'm neither for nor against the man) laid out a reasonable approach to the IA/Ki skills. He approached the "forces" training with his ki tests and he approached body-development through the breathing exercises. However, his approach wasn't very explicative so most Ki-Society people have wound up over time as only have some partial skills (at best), IMO.

So the answer to your question would be that for starters, you need the basic kokyu/jin/whatever forces and you need to develop your body... as Tohei's general teaching method pointed to. There's more to it than that, of course. I feel nowadays that Ueshiba has some of the power-release mechanisms that Tohei did not have, but still these are all extensions of the basic skills.

How long will it take? Depends on how much information you can get, how cleverly you practice, and how hard you practice. A lot of it is like learning to play the guitar: someone can show you how to form the chords, the chord and musical theory, etc., but your progress will mainly be a function of how much you practice to inculcate the skills. Same is true with the Ki skills.

Personally, I think there are far more straightforward ways to learn the theory and basics of the Ki skills than what Tohei first showed, but even though I see some people begin to get pretty good skills in a reasonable amount of time, the present is difficult for, let's say, the average Aikido person to learn these skills because so few of his peers, the "name" teachers, etc., know how to do those skills. I.e., many of the people learning these skills nowadays are the frontrunners to learning these things for the next generation, but they're also having to practice something apart from what the masses of Aikido practitioners are doing. So it's an odd position.

Actually, speaking of odd positions, think about Tohei. He knew how to do the skills. He tried to show his fellow teachers and he tried to teach a number of students in his organization. How successful was he? Not very. Yet, he quite obviously was doing and teaching the same skills that Ueshiba publicly often demonstrated. You'd think that Aikido people would have been falling all over themselves to learn how to do these basic skills that Ueshiba himself was sometimes displaying. But they didn't do that because of the split that happened and therefore anything Tohei was teaching was proscribed to some degree.

So if you attempt to learn these skills, Boaz, you will be going against the direction of the herd just to do what Ueshiba was doing. Weird, huh? That's an added factor to consider in the pursuit of lost Ki skills in a martial art that favors conformity (most of them do) and acquiesence to "aiki-speak".

Best.

Mike

Mike thanks for your reply,

I was actually hoping to focus first on the body training and what you called "kokyu/jin/whatever forces " b4 discussing more advanced skills.(btw how do you distinguish between the 2?)
IIRC you and others mentioned that it's possible to teach (and have the practitioners repeat to some level), some of the basic skills in a few hours/short time.
What would you call the basics?
What would be a general chronology of building the body?
For someone thats just starting the IA training after practicing Aikido for a few years (like myself), do you think there is a minimum of time necessary to acquire the basics? (IIRC some spoke of minimum 2-3 years)
Let's take for example the Ki test of "standing" against a push in any direction:
would you see this and similar exercises as a step you must pass before pursuing more advanced skills? or is it just something you should practice with other skills, and when you achieve a good level at it, its just good feedback?

Another question is regarding the breathing:
Could you explain how you see breathing can help train the body?
What sort of breathing? is it imperative for every level? should it be practiced from the beginning of the IA practice? or is it something for advanced levels?

Richard (if you are still reading this thread):
Any chance of posting some pic of the exercises you mentioned?

Thanks

Boaz

Boaz Neumann wrote: I was actually hoping to focus first on the body training and what you called "kokyu/jin/whatever forces " b4 discussing more advanced skills.(btw how do you distinguish between the 2?)

Hi Boaz:

I'm unclear what you're asking about distinguishing between, if you don't mind clarifying.

Incidentally, because of my past experience in Aikido and my frustrations in trying to find viable information, I like to offer some commentary on Aikido forums (pretending always that there is someone like me out there who is/was looking for scarce information), but most of the in-depth discussions about the how-to's, etc., are on the QiJin forum. It's difficult to find the motivation to write sometimes about the same thing on two different forums. And I'm lazy. Some of your questions are already answered on QiJin in the archives; if you're interested in joining that forum (it's for people with serious, not social, interests), please p.m. me.

IIRC you and others mentioned that it's possible to teach (and have the practitioners repeat to some level), some of the basic skills in a few hours/short time. What would you call the basics?

Basic jin skills as are shown in Tohei's "Ki Tests". Yes, they can be taught fairly quickly, but of course conditioning them takes longer.

What would be a general chronology of building the body?

First learn how to "ground" pushes as purely as possible using the mind-intent. A lot of people use muscle and incorrect sinking to replicate simple Ki tests. They should be done correctly, always, but they are the first and most important test, IMO. But not surprisingly, my opinion is in agreement with things that Tohei figured out long ago. After that there are a number of things in the chronology, depending upon what you ultimately want to do.

For someone thats just starting the IA training after practicing Aikido for a few years (like myself), do you think there is a minimum of time necessary to acquire the basics? (IIRC some spoke of minimum 2-3 years)

In my personal opinion, I think someone can get pretty good skills in a year. I'm trying some experiments right now, so I'll let you know in a few months what my opinion is (please remind me if I forget).

Let's take for example the Ki test of "standing" against a push in any direction: would you see this and similar exercises as a step you must pass before pursuing more advanced skills?

Yes. I would suggest that a person play with the static tests until they're very good and relaxed (there are also the down-force ones that should be practiced also at the same time). I think it saves a lot of time if a person just concentrates (once he knows how to do it well) on the static tests and maybe a few very general limited-motion movement skills (like fune-kogi-undo).

Another question is regarding the breathing: Could you explain how you see breathing can help train the body? What sort of breathing? is it imperative for every level? should it be practiced from the beginning of the IA practice? or is it something for advanced levels?

Hmmmmmm. I could explain, but it would be lengthy to cover the bases properly. Let's just say that ultimately the jin/kokyu forces that are used in the static ki tests, for example, can only develop so far before you either start using muscle or you use what you develop with the breathing.

Think of Ueshiba's famous "jo trick" as an example. Ueshiba is using the same forces that are in the static "ki tests" of the Ki Society, but he is using them in an almost impossibly-strained position by extending a jo as he did (he doesn't quite pull it off, either, but close). He has two ways to keep his body structure intact under the lever-arm forces that are exerted on his body: muscle or the development you get from breathing/stretching/etc. To hold as much force as he did with as little muscular exertion, he had to use the breathing development. The sum total of his breathing-development and the forces he used could rightfully be called either "kokyu" strength (because he developed it with breath exercises) or "ki" strength; take your pick because both are technically correct.

I think the static ki-tests should come first, but you can gradually start working on the breath exercises. The problem with the kokyu-skills and the breathing skills is that they are like the two ends of the laces in your shoe as you are installing a new lace: you have to do a little bit with one lace and then a little bit with the other lace, etc., as you successfully lace up the shoe. You can't do just one lace.

FWIW

Mike