Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Mike Sigman wrote: You're on notice, Tom... and you helped put yourself there!

Kinda scary.

Dan Harden wrote: [snip] Lets get off this "cutting trees" stuff. It really isn't a strong point. I shouldn't have brought it up. Its more swordsmith stuff for me. The martial art internal aspects are my own interests. So is spear work, that is a related but a separate topic. Still its tough to get folk to offer anything interesting. Why did Ueshiba and Takeda do so much spear work? Why did takeda and Kodo do jo work? For technique? Or for power? Dan

hi Dan,

I wasn't trying to side-track the discussion, just making the point that the cutting-silk scenario seems more dependent on the quality of the swordblade's edge than it does on the internal body skill of the wielder. But I don't have much experience with the sword, in particular Japanese sword work. I'd be interested in hearing about differences and commonalities in the use of sword and spear to train internal body skill.

What aspects of internal martial arts are trained by sword work? What aspects are trained by spear or staff work?

I train with staff ("gun" in Mandarin, similar to the Japanese "bo") and with the long pole. I understand, in a very general way, the relation of that training with dantien (tanden) coordination, breathing and whole-body power. I can also see how the same training informs technique.

I don't train with sword. At the risk of stating the obvious, from what I've seen of aiki-ken and the kenjutsu of other schools, the movement and usage seem very different from spear and staff (including jo).

The "natural" movement (or movement learned and embodied so well it becomes natural) of sword and spear/staff seem very different. Does emphasizing sword over jo suburi, for example, make a difference in empty-hand technique? Does a particular emphasis affect how internal body connection is cultivated and trained?

Ellis Amdur's historical inquiry into the course of Ueshiba Morihei's personal development in weapons work is interesting. I wonder how people training today with both sword and spear/staff find the weapons training with respect to its usefulness in building internal body skill.

Mike Sigman wrote: Do you carry a sword around with you, Mark? If not, why do you spend a lot of time perfecting your sword cut? ... Why practice a correct sword cut, for instance, if someone only has marginal atemi skills? If you think about it like that, perhaps you'll see my point. Sword-cutting is cool, but not if one's other basics are not well-formed.

Here is a place where it is easy to illustrate why concepts matter to practice. Sword cuts are the basics. You do not display in that statement any understanding of the concept of hasuiji or how it relates to the extension of ki and expression of your kokyu skills in performing a sword cut.

The principle of hasuji is the complement, in the delivery of a cut, of juji (cross shape) in receiving it. Any blade entry angle other than absolutely dead on the perpendicular to the line of cut will stop it and dissipate the cutting energy.

Wielding the sword in this manner is the beginning of wielding your enemy in exactly the same manner, letting the willing instrument do the work for you -- under proper guidance.

Erick Mead wrote: Here is a place where it is easy to illustrate why concepts matter to practice. Sword cuts are the basics. You do not display in that statement any understanding of the concept of hasuiji or how it relates to the extension of ki and expression of your kokyu skills in performing a sword cut. The principle of hasuji is the complement, in the delivery of a cut, of juji (cross shape) in receiving it. Any blade entry angle other than absolutely dead on the perpendicular to the line of cut will stop it and dissipate the cutting energy. Wielding the sword in this manner is the beginning of wielding your enemy in exactly the same manner, letting the willing instrument do the work for you -- under proper guidance.

That's cool, Erick, but are suggesting that you do sword as a prelude to Aikido then? I don't want to get too deeply into cutting with a sword or the release of energy in strikes, etc., but I don't think you really understand what's going on. The essence of a proper sword strike is jin/kokyu. Same that it's the essence of calligraphy. You simply don't understand the concept.

Where have you seen that you need to do sword strikes in order to understand kokyu? Weapons are generally considered second to empty-hand understanding of power, except in pure weapons arts. If you think striking with a weapon is somehow a necessary pre-requisite for Aikido techniques, I think you're missing a tremendous area of knowledge.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: That's cool, Erick, but are suggesting that you do sword as a prelude to Aikido then?

Complementary. I used the word, even. A host of errors in aikido technique are corrected by putting a sword in the student's hands and performing the technique as a cut.

Mike Sigman wrote: I don't want to get too deeply into cutting with a sword or the release of energy in strikes, etc.,

Probably wise of you.

Mike Sigman wrote: ... but I don't think you really understand what's going on.

No. Evidently you don't.

Erick Mead wrote: A host of errors in aikido technique are corrected by putting a sword in the student's hands and performing the technique as a cut.

Ah... so putting a sword in a student's hand is all it takes to teach them kokyu and ki skills? I didn't know that. This is getting a little absurd, Erick.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: Ah... so putting a sword in a student's hand is all it takes to teach them kokyu and ki skills?

Again not what I said. And, generally speaking, while educated criticism is worthy, it is not a good idea to mock something you have not tried ...

Mike Sigman wrote: This is getting a little absurd, Erick.

Too true.

Thomas Campbell wrote: The "natural" movement (or movement learned and embodied so well it becomes natural) of sword and spear/staff seem very different. Does emphasizing sword over jo suburi, for example, make a difference in empty-hand technique? Does a particular emphasis affect how internal body connection is cultivated and trained? Ellis Amdur's historical inquiry into the course of Ueshiba Morihei's personal development in weapons work is interesting. I wonder how people training today with both sword and spear/staff find the weapons training with respect to its usefulness in building internal body skill.

Sword and Spear/Staff work are inter-related, or at least I've found so in my own training.
The internal "saggital" plane work done with spear/staff is directly applicable to sword work, and its the stepping stone to examining other components of internal work.

Ever see some Japanese weapons practicioners hold their naginata above their heads (raised to the "heaven" position)? That's not a coincidence. Nor is the direct corallary in the sword, where all you're doing is moving (inside yourself) from "heaven" to "earth". IE dropping the dantien or whatever you want to call it. There's all sorts of other winding, coiling, storing etc that you can do, but with a weapon in your hands, it makes it that much more demanding to do internal practice properly.

Both Sagawa and Tohei mention that " You see plenty of people out there swinging a bokken like idiots a thousand times a day. All they're doing is building up a thousand differenent bad habits. "
(The only part where they differ is where Sagawa goes on to make the crack that people like are a) too stupid to practice MAs, and b) they should be cracked on the head to be given a reality check )

I use weapons work to train my body all the time, and it definitely has a direct carry over to my empty hands work, when I spar with mma kids.

Myself, training goes something like this:

Solo Work (non weapons) -> Builds physical realizations of certain properties/harmonies.

Said properties/harmonies are put into weapons work, such as spear or cutting. Test and train these realizations with the weapons, which again help the body to realize other factors

Said factors are then put into Solo Work(sans weapons) etc etc.
Its a never ending feedback loop.

Partner work and sparring fit into this feedback loop of course, but they're more of a barometer than a developer if you ask me.



My two cents anyways.

PS
Practicing with any kind of weapon should reveal any "imbalances" you have in your body movement/alignments. Which is why long weapons that exert leverage on the body are used since you can't use "muscle" to wield them. Practicing on a 6 foot bokken quickly whips the bodies alignments into shape

Well, as I mentioned I had a few more Aikido guys in to train tonight. I'll let them write in if they choose...but suffice to say they have followed much of the ________ written in on the forums doubting these skills and the validity of thier use in Aikido. Interestingly this is the second time I have met Aikido guys who have made the rounds and felt a veritible who's who of AIkido teachers and shihan....... Including having experience with some of the detractors here.

We concentrated on training them in some basics and solo exercises.
Since they both teach I showed them things to work on including the Aikidoka's hanmi (a pet peeve of mine) a source of weakness for many. Since they both have teaching responsibilities, I reluctantly agreed to do a small....very small....seminar (for a donation to the dojo only.. no charge from me) in Conn. to help get Aikidoka going on some of these things. and to meet them every other month or so to go over things.
I must admit it was fun hearing his views after his reading all this ....er stuff .....then feeling it up close and personal.

Maybe its interesting that no one who has met Mike or Rob or me has reported back in yet anything....to counter the value in training. and have
a. reported a comfortable atmosphere
b. The openess of each of us
c. Their personal views that these skills have value in "thier" eyes for Aikido.

So, thier views were that it is not openly taught in Aikido , is rarely seen, and even their most trusted teachers do not teach the how to's. This was a very critical comment they stipulated. That here and there they felt some things... but that no one...no one.... taught the how to's.
Anyway.....as I said, one group at a time .
Cheers
Dan

Dan,

For some reason this rankles me less than the last time you said something like it:

So, thier views were that it is not openly taught in Aikido , is rarely seen, and even their most trusted teachers do not teach the how to's. This was a very critical comment they stipulated. That here and there they felt some things... but that no one...no one.... taught the how to's.

I find your candor appealing - same reason I like to argue with Erick Mead, Nagababa, and yourself - because I'm cut from the same cloth: I'm sure I'm right and I love a good fight! Poor aikidoka, I know.

Won't speak to the 'rarely seen' portion, as seeing is in the eyes of the seer. I will say that the concept of 'center' was not spoken of in judo training AT ALL by my first Sensei. When I told her I felt my nervous system being rewired (I was 15) she smiled warmly and said "That's fine. Please continue practicing your techniques."

One more thing - I trained with a student of Akeda Sensei and when I gripped his wrist I was afraid - I felt like I had gripped a branch of an oak, but one that could both root and move with power. Twenty years ago I shook Akeda Sensei's hand - and I began trembling! I've never felt such power. He simply smiled and asked if I would be training at the seminar.

The internal is there in my instructors - you sir, don't own it, and talk is cheap.

David

Erick Mead -

Here is a place where it is easy to illustrate why concepts matter to practice.

I listen to you. I bust on you, but it's just training. I'm glad you're here, and I respect you. I post some weird stuff, but I'm in a different place.

Peace

David

Erick Mead wrote: Again not what I said. And, generally speaking, while educated criticism is worthy, it is not a good idea to mock something you have not tried ...

No, I know you didn't explicitly say that, but it's implicit in your remark..... you seem to think that proper sword cuts are a topic aside from ki/kokyu skills. Let me assure you that sword-cutting, *done correctly*, is based on kokyu power and ki development. You keep arguing around basics like you don't understand they exist.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

David Knowlton wrote: Dan, The internal is there in my instructors - you sir, don't own it, and talk is cheap. David

Dave
What a ridiculous thing to say to me. Since ....you... finally get what we have been saying all along (did you have trouble reading?)
Then see if you can address the only problem we -do- discuss.
a. That it is not openly taught

What I wrote in was yet another experience I have had with Aikidoka now feeling it and either saying they have felt it here and there, or not all, but that the specific ways to do it and train it are not taught.
Those are their words Dave, not mine

This is great for you Dave that you have, as you say, a teacher who can do these things. If you have teachers who can demonstrate it- then I assume I can meet you and you can do these things? Answer______________ ?
So that was ten years ago?
So you're pretty well versed and capable with these skills... yes?
If not...why not?

Or if you like so many are being told it takes twenty years....or that it is in the techniques? You are not being told the truth. The basic bodywork can be taught as a separate adjunct to training....in any art...in a short period of time and it gets better the more you train it.

And Dave, my position continues to be supported and strengthened the more I continue to meet folks. They talk, but can't do, they defend a teacher (who supposedly can do) yet they cannot... because they were taught not....by the very teacher they defend.


And Dave talk isn't cheap. It can get very expensive when folks meet.... hands-on and they really have no skills to argue with.
What I say to those who meet me and comment on my power is don;lt bow to me.If you want to bow go bow to the pictures on the wall. I didn't invent this stuff.
Better yet, go ask....if they supposedly know... why you haven't been taught?
Dan

I think Dan is spot on here...either the teachers don't know how to teach it, or they save it for a special few, or they believe you have to figure it out for yourself...or they teach it, but not in a format like Akuzawa, or Dan, or Mike...something is usually amiss.

Or we students are just clueless (I opt for that choice in my case)...but it's not getting out enough.

I chastized Cady a bit for a similar statement yesterday...but Dan is essentially saying the same thing, but making it a bit more palatable. I think we just have to accept that there are some roadblocks in aikido today that don't necessarily *have* to be there.

Best,
Ron

Thanks Ron.

Thanks Dan. If you can make aikido better by irritating the hell out of some of us sometimes, then so be it. Please don't be surprised when we are rude - we take some of your comments as rude. So be it.

Several of my posts indicate I was tortured by a psychopath to the tune of having the ligaments in my groin torn out with a channel lock. So, I can't do - right now.

Dan, did you read my post about 'the leverage provided by a slightly resistive uke' making it easier to do (a different) throw? I really would like to discuss along those lines as that is how I understand (feel) the internal. I think Erick Mead understands too, but a common language seems to be missing. Scientists have mathematics - we have only english, and limited patience with one another.

David

Mike Sigman wrote: Oh no... are you striking back at with an imaginary "Mike o meter" because your feelings got hurt??? I hope not!!!

No feelings hurt, just slightly bored with the predictability of respose.

Let me say it once again, Mark. If someone does something well, I'm anxious to tell him. If someone does something poorly, I'll tell them. I said I haven't seen you, so I withold judgement and you turn it into a personal attack.

You are making personal judgements all the time in print , up front, no holding back, surely pointing something out that you do for a past-time is hardly an attack?

Secondly, you're not even in the same breath with Seisaki Abe.

Most probably not, I don't claim to be, I do not know him and I'm sure he is very good. However, unless you've practiced with both him and me, you are not in a position to make the statement. Sorry Mike, that is just the ufortunate position one is in when sitting in judgement. Not that that will stop you

You *may* have some skills, but I've seen nothing you've written to support that beyond the rudiments. Maybe I'm wrong. Let's say I am.

Yes, let's! What I chose to write is not the totality of my aikido practice. I personally think that the forums are the least useful place to discuss 'skills'. The only decent place to explore them is in the dojo.

Anyway, since when did you become the arbiter of what passes for skill in aikido? hence my comment about the Mike-o-meter. I understand that you do have had some aikido experience in the past but you no longer practice. Perhaps you have gone beyond what aikido can offer you, perhaps not. You do undoubtedly sit in judgement of aikidoka 'in general' and also when you chose to be, very specific.

I'd still be reluctant to say too much positive without seeing what you do because I've personally seen (over the years) that when you give a positive appraisal, too many people immediately think "Aha! I'm there already".

The day I start practicing with the thought of "looking for Mike's approval" in my mind is along way off. If I came to you and I found that you had as much to teach me as my present teacher, I may think differently. This remains to be seen

I'm just like many aikidoka on on these fora and even those who aren't, we practice what we are taught with as much sincerity as possible, some of us reach the place where we pass on what we have gained. Most of us are happy that we have found an art that engages us so fully. Even though we know that there are those who think that aikido is "useless" in real combat, even though there are people who say that aikidoka are 'lacking' in all sorts of areas'. It doesn't stop us from continuing. We may be flawed Mike, but my guess is that you are no different.

I don't claim any position of authority, as I don't judge other aikidoka, other than those I teach and train with. I have much to learn and I am aware of my own shortcomings, which gives me plenty of material to work with for the rest of my time on the aikido mat.

So fine... you worry about the "Mike O Meter" and make clever comments, but also consider the idea that we might meet someday and those clever remarks could come back to haunt you.

As I said I'm not worried, but it is true that everything we put out in the public domain could come back to haunt us, and that goes for you too

And yeah... I'm goading to you to get better and better so you can impress the hell out of me. If I complimented you, you'd get lazy.

Ah that's better, the subtle stuff was only a passing fancy

I may chose not to respond to your goading in the future Mike, please don't take it personally. I know you are just thinking of my progress, but I'll stick with my current training, and as I said, I'm not in it to impress you.

Also most readers will be bored with my to-ing and fro-ing with you, cluttering up the thread.

Anyway back to you, Mike

regards,

Mark
p.s. If anyone thinks I am being overly offensive to Mike please let me know. I am keen to maintain some form of balance, and would be happy to listen to any advice.

David Knowlton wrote: Dan, did you read my post about 'the leverage provided by a slightly resistive uke' making it easier to do (a different) throw? I really would like to discuss along those lines as that is how I understand (feel) the internal. I think Erick Mead understands too, but a common language seems to be missing. Scientists have mathematics - we have only english, and limited patience with one another.

I think Dan put it fairly clearly, Dave.... part of the problem is that the conversations get into cross-purposes where people are assuming that what they *think* is "internal" is not what Dan is talking about. So your jump-shift suddenly back into what you think is "internal" (I don't think this is the word to use, frankly) potentially takes us back again.

The best thing for people to do is go get a "feel" for what the discussion is about. People who studied at workshops with Ushiro got a "feel" for some of the ways he uses power. Tohei's "ki tests" focus on this way to use power. Ueshiba is shown on film using this kind of power in various formats. The idea is to establish a verified common vocabulary rather than talk past each other with various "feels" for what "internal" means or, worse yet, to continue on with the insistence that someone *knows* what this stuff is. I've seen this situation come up so many times where when you finally meet up with someone, what they think they can do has very little to do with the subject in reality.

And to use Dan for a scapegoat for a moment, what he said can be construed as somewhat rude in regard to the status and respect for some instructors, but let's turn it around for a second and think about what it's like for the person who is friendily showing people how to do something, but he keeps getting hammered with a lot of claims and arguments that experience has shown to be usually empty. After a while you develop a defensive reaction dealing with the people who "already know that stuff", when it's pretty obvious that they don't. So there's a question of, I'll forego someone's comment about ego, some people believing their own press that needs to be addressed.... and the best way is to just get out there and meet. Time's a-wastin'.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike,

Thank you. On the surface I am trying to learn. It may be ego as you suggest.

David

Mark Freeman wrote: Anyway, since when did you become the arbiter of what passes for skill in aikido?

I haven't made any claim to be "the arbiter of what passes for skill in Aikido", Mark, but like everyone else in various forums, I can offer my opinions. Most of my response has been to your fairly regular indications that you've "been there; done that already". Maybe you have. As I stated fairly clearly, though, despite your continued insistences along those lines, I've seen no real indications of it. That's an opinion... not a claim to be "The Arbiter".

Regards,

Mike Sigman

The problem for the vast majority of Aikidoka out there is that we have been told what we are doing or what our teachers are doing is internal and comes from the center. Naturally, when we feel what our instructors do we assign their mechanics to the moving from the center category because that is what we are told they are doing. In other words we have been dictated to what the center should feel like without really knowing if that is truly what the center should feel like. Most Aikidoka have no comparable frame of reference. Of course, there are the students out there that get up in arms with even the hint that they and/or their instructors are not truly moving from their center.

These threads always seem to get to the same sticking points. I encourage people to get out there and find these people so you can put your hands on them and feel what they are talking about. Trust me you are going to be surprised and a lot of realizations will come to you about how this art developed and may have gotten off course. Maybe the next Aikiweb workshop can include an "internal" guy or two.

Theories on paper are nice but the lab is where the work is done.

Best,
Tim Anderson

Mike Sigman wrote: Most of my response has been to your fairly regular indications that you've "been there; done that already". Maybe you have. As I stated fairly clearly, though, despite your continued insistences along those lines, I've seen no real indications of it.

I don't remember ever having said "been there done that" I have however practiced the Tohei ki exercises for the last 14 or so years, which is about the limit of my claims. I'm not insisting anything, and I wonder what you need to see in print to be able to judge whether someone is genuine. Pretty odd in my mind.
I've seen pretty inexperienced aikido people post on thse forums with greater eloquence than me. What does ones typing ability say about their ki/kokyu skills?

This is a daft exchange and I will bow out at this point.

regards,

Mark

David Knowlton wrote: Thank you. On the surface I am trying to learn. It may be ego as you suggest.

Hi Dave: Well, I'm trying to be somewhat ambivalent. I think you can see by our posts that although we're both very different people, Dan and I for some reason similarly bristle a little bit at some of the side-issues in these discussions that have to do with "can already do that", "my teacher is great at it", "we've discussed and practiced this stuff for years" (and yet when you meet them they've got nothing but muscle, etc.). There's a reason, at least on my part (since I don't want to speak for Dan), for the bristling..... years of experience has shown that most of the claims about "already do that" are a waste of time. If you tolerate it nicely, you wind up in most meetings trying to massage someone's ego instead of saying, "Hey.... look at what you can do... you simply can't do it".

It's just better to cut to the chase. But just cutting to the chase doesn't always work either. Let me think of an example to put into words. OK, let me switch to Taiji for a second to make it clearer, although I've seen exactly the same thing happen in Aikido a number of times, as well:

I can remember meeting up with a guy who took falls, dives, and pushes from his teacher to the point where his teacher barely had to move his hand and the guy was bouncing away. When this guy came and met with me privately, he wasn't cooperative at all and attempted to resist. I still continued to handle him fairly easily (not because I'm great but because he had no jin skills) and gradually he kept increasing his resistance, telling me that I simply couldn't handle him as easily as his teacher did. So suddenly in the middle of his strong resistance, I released a large shaking-power and it threw him down and shook him up. But he left and forever was convinced that despite handling him from very soft to very rough, no one else really had the "magic" that his own teacher did. In other words, there will always be a potential in these discussions for a certain amount of teacher-student relationship that will unconsciously be affecting the conversation. The best way to avoid it is to keep the discussion very much on the how's and why's of these things, not on the "you hurt my feelings", "ego", and "you said something that implicates my teacher and therefore I hate you" stuff.

Best.

Mike

Tim Anderson wrote: The problem for the vast majority of Aikidoka out there is that we have been told what we are doing or what our teachers are doing is internal and comes from the center. Naturally, when we feel what our instructors do we assign their mechanics to the moving from the center category because that is what we are told they are doing. In other words we have been dictated to what the center should feel like without really knowing if that is truly what the center should feel like.

Good point, Tim. I stopped by a Pilates place and talked to some Yoga people, etc., etc., recently, and I find that they teach how to do things "from the center" and "breathe to strengthen the center" and "move from the center",etc., and it boils down to the fact that they've usurped the trendy term/phrase of "move from the center" and interpretted it as they feel like it... since they don't know any better.

So the error is probably back to being partially mine for not factoring in the point that many people aren't wrong because they're dummies, but because they've been educated into a belief that may not be accurate. I can accept that.

Regards,

Mike

Wow....I can't keep up with you guys. I have to go work.

David Knowlton wrote: Thanks Dan. If you can make aikido better by irritating the hell out of some of us sometimes, then so be it. Please don't be surprised when we are rude - we take some of your comments as rude. So be it. Scientists have mathematics - we have only english, and limited patience with one another. David

Dave
This is what ...I.... try to do to make Aikido better
Go to open discussions and read.

My experience with Dan Harden

-I spent the night from 7:30 -midnight. With a couple of guys to get them started on basics. And put my own guys aside.

Read
Meeting with Dan Harden in Boston
I drove for and hour taught, and took Mark to dinner.


I am offering to put my body where my mouth is the best I can manage...free of charge... to help. Say what you will. And I'll let you be the judge of what I get and have gotten in return.
Re-read Mikes replies. He gives a fairly even handed assessment of what it is like to be looking.... from this end.

I know I am messing with folks art and their teachers. But honestly. I think in the end, it will help.
As Ikeda pointed out in his article I posted here about summer camp..... "We need to start doing things completely different."
Go yell at him too.
As I said many times.
Aikido....full speed...in the wrong direction.

Dan

Thank you Sir.

Sometimes detractors are those most passionate for the object of their criticism.

David