Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Roosevelt,

His background is Judo, Boxing, Grappling, Karate, Wrestling, and NHB fighting.

What enabled him is he had a much broader command of martial arts, specifically ground fighting than I did. We were equal in the striking arts, but when it came time to clinch, I was a fish out of water.

Keep in mind, we were playing by NHB and/or BJJ style rules....NOT aikido's. So you must consider that it was apples against oranges.

I honestly feel/felt that a Martial Artist should be able to adapt. He could, I couldn't, he was simply a better, more rounded Martial artist than I.

It didn't prove/disprove the value or credibility of aikido, but showed me I was hiding behind a false perception of what I was able to do as a MA.

I have de-constructed myself, and started over again, re-learning and re-evaluating everything I have ever learned. I now consider myself a Budoka that uses several methodologies, aikido which is one, to train myself.

I stopped looking at aikido as a set of tools, and started viewing it as a methodology. If you look at it in this manner, aikido presents one of the best platforms upon which to build a lifetime practice. Why, because it is principle based and has wonderful methodologies for helping you "relearn/learn" correctly.

I believe Jason Delucia has reached this conclusion as well.

Good training!

Excellent post Kevin. Thanks for sharing that!

Best,
Ron

That accurately sums up my feelings as well. I've felt the same thing since turning to Sambo/MMA in the past 2 years since I stopped practicing Aikido regularly (other than 3-4 seminars a year).

Aikido is an awesome budo. However, it is budo only, and some people desire more than that. Other's don't. It's all good. I look upon my Aikido as giving me an edge-up on all the guys I roll with in Sambo and I look at Sambo as making my Aikido better.

I think of it like a buffet line. For 7 years I had nothing but chicken. I really liked chicken. I still like chicken. But a couple of years ago I tried steak. I found out I liked steak. I ate both for awhile but I've settled into only eating steak right now and I think I'll be sticking with it for awhile. I still have some chicken every now and then though.

And who knows? Maybe some day I'll work up the nerve to try the pork!

I wish I had some guys to train with in Sambo! From the limited experience I had with it, it seemed to be a good balance between grappling arts and mulitple opponent focuses!

Anyway, you got me thinking....if aikido is only budo and some people desire MORE. what is MORE?

I am one of those guys, like you, that found that I was not realilzing my full martial potential and aikido just wasn't doing it for me ...so I went looking else where for that MORE. (still looking!)

But I am not sure what the MORE really is!!!

I think a lot of folks go around looking for MORE in other styles or methods when what in fact happens is that they find CLARITY and REVELATION of what may have not been properly taught in Aikido practice from the beginning.

For many, I can understand the concept that Aikido may be a "finishing school" for those who have already developed some skill in other arts where the harsh realities of fighting have already been well dealt with. In fact, the way much of "modern" Aikido is taught, one will be hard pressed to get any understanding of the vagaries of actual interpersonal conflict while operating within the artificial cooperative constructs of the dojo. For example, in fighting there is no Uke and no Nage, just 2 individuals interacting without bounds to their free will, there is no taking of turns, there is just - free interaction. It's like attempting too do theoretical mathematics without first understanding basic arithmetic - doomed to failure from the outset.

Even though I currently train regularly in Jujutsu and a bit of FMA alongside Aikido, at no time did the Aikido I was taught come up martially lacking when faced with spirited resistance and tactics in the other schools, or outside in the real world for that matter. For me, Aikido will always remain my initial approach to dealing with interpersonal conflict, but what I learn in the other arts are also extremely valuable for dealing with the environments and situations they specialise in.

I guess it is sad that folks who have not experienced (or don't know) better tend to relegate Aikido to something of "mind or spirit training with no real martial value" or "great exercise but useless for self defence". To me, this sort of thing is a result of people and Instructors who represent Aikido as such things. The question remains however, if there is no Bu in your Do when you practice Aikido, then is your Aikido Budo? If Ueshiba M. identified Aikido as Budo, then if the Bu is absent then are you actually practicing Aikido? Or is it something totally outside of Budo? Like dance maybe???

What Kevin experienced with the guy who had experience in a range of other arts that had a lot of sparring is sadly typical for a lot of Aikidoka who train for years without some sort of objective measuring/evaluation system for their skill sets. Folks are never taught that to be harmonious when harmony is artificially enforced is to in fact do nothing, since the harmony already exists. Imho this cannot be Budo. But is it the fault of the art or the proponents of the art? Obviously not everyone in Aikido is maligned in this way so it is not a quality of the art, but its proponents.

Imho of course.
LC

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Anyway, you got me thinking....if aikido is only budo and some people desire MORE. what is MORE? I am one of those guys, like you, that found that I was not realilzing my full martial potential and aikido just wasn't doing it for me ...so I went looking else where for that MORE. (still looking!) But I am not sure what the MORE really is!!!

I know what you mean!

I was happy with Aikido (only) for a long time but as I branched out, I just found a whole world of other martial opportunities. I just know I was no longer being pushed to my limits by Aikido. I was no longer feeling...growth, for the lack of a better term.

I need that feeling that I'm learning something. That I'm getting better. That I'm being pushed to my boundries; physically and mentally. That there is an element of risk in my training because out risk there is not much growth!

And now, in Sambo, I have all those things again. I had lost them in Aikido in the past couple of years since I finished my uchi deshi stay. I suppose that is understandable though, I can't really expect my training to be like that when I returned to my original dojo.

But like I said, Sambo is making me a better Aikidoka and vice versa! It's just another component of me studying myself really. How I want to push myself and in what directions do I want to grow. I suppose this might be the illusive MORE that Kevin and I are looking for. We've just got to keep pushing ourselves in all directions to find out where that MORE is.

Lastly, YES! Sambo is great. We focus mostly on Sport Sambo instead of Combat Sambo but our "facillitator" is versed in both. (the guy who runs the place refuses to be called the instructor or even the 'head' of the dojo, though that's what he is. He insists that it's a club and he is only the "facilitator." Nice guy.)

Not to mention, if you look at the MMA world right now Sambo is seemingly dominating. Arlovski, the UFC heavyweight champ, is a Sambo national champion. Although really, he doesn't have much competition, the UFC heavyweight division being so weak. And in PRIDE (that's the biggest MMA org in the world for those not in the know) the heavyweight champ, Fedor, is a Sambo national champion. He actually just won the world nantionals in Poland this year in addition to defending his title in PRIDE. Of course, Fedor is probably not a man but some freak Russian experiment or something. The guy is not human the way he fights. (He's essentially undefeated in MMA. His one loss was a doctor stoppage. When Fedor fought the guy again he smashed his opponent's face in)

It's not that suprising really. Sambo has been huge in Russia for decades, well before MMA got big. And Sport Sambo is essentialy MMA with a couple different rules. So it's a pretty easy transistion for these guys who've been growing up training/fighting this way their entire lives.

Watch this video to see Fedor in action against Nog (#2 or 3 heavyweight in the world). Check his standing throws at the end of the clip, really amazing.

Interestingly enough, the new Modern Army Combatives Program I study and work with was largely based on the Sambo model. It really seems to work well for modern warfare and combatives.

I know there may be those out there that are thinking, "oh here are a couple of guys that are basically saying they learned everything that aikido had to offer, now they are moving on." or "aikido is not a complete art".

Contrary, IMHO, the focus is not about the art, but the artist. Everyone is different and what works for one, may not work for the other. For me, it is more about I am not good enough to learn 100% from just aikido. Also, my ventures have only solidified my belief that aikido is very good and relevant.

One thing I am critical of aikido though is parochialism and "group think". In some aspects I think aikido is prey to this. I found that going out of the circle works for me. I wish I had more time to spend with Saotome Sensei. One thing I always noticed is he seems to be focused on knocking those walls down. It is subtle, but he always trys. At least that has been my experiences.

Larry Camejo wrote: ..... What Kevin experienced with the guy who had experience in a range of other arts that had a lot of sparring is sadly typical for a lot of Aikidoka who train for years without some sort of objective measuring/evaluation system for their skill sets .....

It's worth mentioning that sparring itself is a skill that is trickier to learn than most people think. I've had this driven home by my Kali instructor's approach to running us up to empty hand sparring. AFAIK, we are still doing "practice sparring," not actually sparring yet. Contrast this with many karate dojos which start you if not at full power, full speed out the gate. I love karate and I won't say anything bad about the senseis who take that approach, including the gentlemen I have trained under for twenty years. But the drawback is that your flight-or-flight reflex takes over and you "dumb down" to what you can go in off the bat. If that is not a problem, fine. My kali instructor wants us to explore techniques in a random situation without loosing your presence of mind -- in fact, viewing it the same way you do practicing prearranged techniques. Hence the levels of "practice sparring."

And even then, for sparring to be used in this manner, it has to echoe what the art in question actually does. Aikido is not a kickboxing system, so karate/TKD/kickboxing sparring doesn't help you with Aikido. Likewise, it is not a ground fighting system, so again, Judo, BJJ, etc. don't really suit it. I'm all for cross training, but one should remember that (a) sparring/randori is something you have to learn to do; and (b) if it doesn't echoe the range and techniques Aikido uses, it doesn't really test it.

So when an Aikido person has problem sparring, maybe it has nothing to with the quality of their Aikido instruction, but just the fact they never had any sparring instruction. A subtle difference but an important one to remember.

Michael Gallagher wrote: It's worth mentioning that sparring itself is a skill that is trickier to learn than most people think.

Like anything else, how well something is taught has a great effect on how quickly and easily it is learnt. Many great and skilled practitioners are not necessarily great teachers and vice versa.

Gambatte.
LC

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Contrary, IMHO, the focus is not about the art, but the artist. Everyone is different and what works for one, may not work for the other. For me, it is more about I am not good enough to learn 100% from just aikido.

I agree with this.

I think Aikido is like a grade school. Only those who have gone through elementry school, secondary school, and university should be adimitted to Aikido graduate study.

The current problem is anyone off the street can join an Aikido class (that including me). Teaching Aikido to me is like teaching quantium physics to a baby.

Suppose Aikido is a grade school to teach civil engineer to build high rise building. What if a student barely know 1+1=2 to start with. Somehow, that student manages to graduate through the system. Of course that student has no idea how to build a garden hub, let alone a grand building.

Maybe they should send me to Karate, or tai chi to study how to stand and move my own body, the send me to push-hand to study how to move others in a static way. If I show some talent, they let me into AIkido to move others in a dynamic way.

"Aikido does not work at all in a fight." is true. Because Aikido is a not only a method, but also a teaching system. This system failed by not up front with its students.

I don't know how many Aikido students are building a high rise without any foundations.

I have been hesitant to respond to this post simply because we are talking peoples opinions and nothing that i could say will change that. Now that said my humble .02.

First most fights 99.9999999......% of the time can be avoided by non participation. It takes at least two to participate in a fight. Most fights occur from rage and ego, "He looked at me wrong, He cut me off, He talked about my momma"..the list goes on. Walk away with an apology right wrong or indifferent the fight generally will not occur.

Second, If that does not work does aikido work? In my opinion yes. Let me explain, Jim Hanna Sensei and I are like David and Goliath; I would be Goliath Hanna Sense is all of 5' zip and 140lbs, I stand 6'4" and 225lbs I also lift weights so am quite a bit stronger than him. I also make every attempt when I uke to give freely, meaning if he says Brian choke me/ punch me etc. believe me my intent is to do just that then attempt to recover quickly be dangerous and go at him again. I am just glad there are no chairs,tables,cars, or concrete to land on in the dojo

I believe that aikido works in both points, the first edict of aikido...Don't be there (avoidance).

A wise man once said: " The less you know of martial arts the more you need it. The more you know of martial of arts the less you need it."

Shall we train on?
BK

"Arlovski, the UFC heavyweight champ, is a Sambo national champion."

Keith... get your facts straight. Arlovski is a military sambo champ. AND he stopped doing sambo after that. In fact he has done BJJ for 6 years now and has stated in interviews that BJJ is best for groundfighting.

Fedor is yes a samboka. Also a fine judoka.

To Brian... I'd say... when he says "choke me" punch him. When says "punch me", clinch and do a takedown. See what happens then.

I do not question the proficency of your teacher but I have never met any "little" aikdoka who could really throw around resisting opponents. My bad.

Larry Camejo wrote: Like anything else, how well something is taught has a great effect on how quickly and easily it is learnt. Many great and skilled practitioners are not necessarily great teachers and vice versa. Gambatte. LC

Since most if not all karate dojos that do sparring follow the full speed model, I don't see how you can pin the problems with that on any particular sensei. In fact, it seems kumite is supposed to be different -- lighter, quicker, not as precise -- than kata and bunkai; that has nothing to do with the teaching abilities of the instructor if they're all working from the same playbook.

By the same taken, Pembantu Guru Andy's "practice sparring" model also has pedigree; he likes to cite how Thai Boxers, who train all day, go at a slower pace than in the ring, so they can learn the move. They play. In fact, the Filipinos have an expression, "play to learn." O Sensei's rule to practice in a "vibrant and joyful manner" is not too far from that. Andy learned Kali from Guro Kevin Seaman, who did things that way, too. Yes, you do get up to full speed, but Andy beleives in working up to that point. If we're still in practice sparring, it's not because Pembantu Guru Andy doesn't know how to teach it -- and I resent the implication if that's what you're saying -- but because he wants us to take out time learning how to do it.

So while the ability of the instructor is important, if everyone has the same "textbook," then past a certain point, it doesan't make a difference.

Jorgen Matsi wrote: "Arlovski, the UFC heavyweight champ, is a Sambo national champion." Keith... get your facts straight. Arlovski is a military sambo champ. AND he stopped doing sambo after that. In fact he has done BJJ for 6 years now and has stated in interviews that BJJ is best for groundfighting. Fedor is yes a samboka. Also a fine judoka.

Yeah, my bad about Arlovski. I couldn't remeber if it was a National or military title. I didn't bother to check because I didn't think anyone would call me out on it! Oh well. And while I'm correcting myself, the Sambo Nationals were in Prague this year, not Poland.

As far as BJJ vs Sambo in terms of ground work, I would agree that the BJJ methadology and pedagogy is better (we freely mix BJJ into our Sambo). However, I think Sambo is definitely a better all around fighting system as it mixes ground work, throws/takedowns, and striking. If there was one real deficiency in most of the BJJ gyms I've been to it's the almost complete absence of throws/takedowns other than shooting for a single or a double.

Roosvelt Freeman wrote: .... Only those who have gone through elementry school, secondary school, and university should be adimitted to Aikido graduate study.

I think this is a terrible idea.

When you talk about restricting or limiting access to a martial art, you run the risk of killing the martial art off. I have seen that in the Indonesian martial art of Pentjak Silat Serak. For many years, the de Thouars family kept it secret, inviting those they thought worthy after years of study in other arts, to study Serak. The end result of this policy is you ended up with -- literally -- a handful of aging men who had the whole system, and it was all in their heads; nothing had been written down. Maha Guru Victor de Thouars broke with his brothers and began teaching Serak publicly just to keep it from vanishing from the face of the Earth.

With more than a million people practicing Aikido worldwide, there may not be an immediate danger of Aikido dying out if some sensei or others decides he will only admit people who have spent years practicing other arts (although that dojo will be in trouble -- he'll be strangling his own pool of potential students, considering that up to 90% of people who start quit within a year, so never mind how many black belts there are in his area). But would there BE more than a million Aikido practitioners if the second Doshu Kisshomaru had kept his father's policies of consdiering only experienced martial artists who were backed by two sponsors he knew personally? Obviously, NO! Aikido would have remained confined to Japan; most of the people who practice it might not have even heard of it. Yes, there are some Bujitsu schools in Japan that have a small number of people -- maybe 50 people altogether practicing that style -- but why would anyone want Aikido to be that restricted?

Part of our roll as martial artists is to propogate the systems we learn by teaching them to others. The Ueshiba family has spent the better part of a century doing just that -- promoting it, spreading it, and certifying instructors who teach it to others. Choking off the flow of eligible students would be counterproductive to that IMHO. If you get your own dojo and decide to do it that way, that's your business. But I wouldn't go for it.

Larry,

Sorry I missed your post some how yesterday (#405). Good post sums up very well how I also feel about things.

Roosevelt, I understand where you are coming from with the whole grade school/grad school concept. However, there is nothing wrong with starting with aikido as a first art. You will learn how to move and will learn posture, ma'ai, and all that very correctly. I don't really think it matters where you start. I for one started with TKD and Karate, I had/have to unlearn many bad habits I picked up from those styles. Just as aikidoka will have to learn how to adapt their style when confronted with a karate style.

It really is all about your goals of what you want to learn and what works for you.

Jorgen Matsi wrote: " To Brian... I'd say... when he says "choke me" punch him. When says "punch me", clinch and do a takedown. See what happens then. I do not question the proficency of your teacher but I have never met any "little" aikdoka who could really throw around resisting opponents. My bad.

Did that during a demonstration at the dojo. we went through the set demo which was the owaza jupon which we figured was about 3min tops the other 12min was me just attacking punch,grab, choke you name it nothing we did was pre arranged besides the owaza. I was tossed around pretty good. There is another sensei at the Jiyushinkai dojo about Hanna sensei's size Keith Slatoff sensei who I have never had the pleasure to train with but from my understanding is very adept as well acutally all of them are really.

BK

Michael Gallagher wrote: In fact, it seems kumite is supposed to be different

True.

Michael Gallagher wrote: -- lighter, quicker, not as precise -- than kata and bunkai;

Can't agree with "not as precise". It's extremely difficult to be as precise during freeplay as one is in kata due to resistance and a host of other factors, but the goal is to achieve the precision of kata in randori/kumite/shiai afaic. It's what we aim for in our Aikido and it can be (and is) achieved over time with the aid of effective evaluation/feedback systems. It's difficult, but far from impossible from my experience. The sad thing is that the pressures of sparring encourages folks to abandon what they learn in kata and bunkai and resort to more primitive, intinctive responses or another art that they are more comfortable with. Happens all the time in my dojo with folks who did other styles before coming to us and experiencing full resistance randori and end up being stabbed like a pincushion. Sadly, what they resort to is even less help. They return to what is known and safe, instead of attempting to apply what they are learning in the forms practice of the art they are currently sparring in, missing the entire point of practice.

Michael Gallagher wrote: By the same taken, Pembantu Guru Andy's "practice sparring" model also has pedigree; he likes to cite how Thai Boxers, who train all day, go at a slower pace than in the ring, so they can learn the move. They play. In fact, the Filipinos have an expression, "play to learn." O Sensei's rule to practice in a "vibrant and joyful manner" is not too far from that. Andy learned Kali from Guro Kevin Seaman, who did things that way, too. Yes, you do get up to full speed, but Andy beleives in working up to that point. If we're still in practice sparring, it's not because Pembantu Guru Andy doesn't know how to teach it -- and I resent the implication if that's what you're saying -- but because he wants us to take out time learning how to do it.

Lol. Don't resent anything Mike, what you cited above is what I meant about understanding how to teach the principles of freeplay. There are certain steps any teacher can go through to embed the core principles of effective sparring in their students. Your post above gave some of them.

The best teachers however begin at what you gave above and have a very precise and evolved method of feedback and measures built into these levels (e.g slower or low resistance practice building towards more resistance and speed) and are able to develop specialised drills and practices to build the weak areas that a student may have. This last part has nothing to do with martial skill, but generic teaching skill. It still does not change the fact that although a person may be a gifted martial artist, they may be a terrible teacher. They are 2 different jobs entirely. Imho not everyone should or can teach.

Michael Gallagher wrote: So while the ability of the instructor is important, if everyone has the same "textbook," then past a certain point, it doesan't make a difference.

Well imo it depends on your goal. If the textbook does not help you sufficiently meet your objectives then I say pack it away and write a new one instead of wasting time. Going back to your karate example - how many karate tourneys do you see where even black belts are not just flailing around trying to get off a lucky kick or punch and score points? All of the form, tactics, strategy and bunkai goes out the window as soon as the heat is on.

Same happens in aikido, judo etc. imo. In these cases a good teacher observes, learns and innovatively designs ways of overcoming these challenges and aids the student towards that end while being extremely meticulous in gaining feedback and judging progress. A mediocre one goes back to the "textbook" to find what may have never been there in the first place, since you may be in uncharted waters.

Just some thoughts.
LC

Stop argueing about this. It is pointless.

If pointless why arguing then?

Oh really... you think all those people are so dumb that they do not understand that this discussion can not/will not have one allmighty-clearing-up result in one post? Or yours just was?

Thanks for enlightening us! You are a true champion because of finally clearing up this long thread!

Nothing pointless about the argument either - its generating some interesting discussion. Notice its evolving from not what Aikido can or can not do but how you can train to make it do what you want it to.

I do think one of the problems of Aikido is that it has spread so far, wide and quickly that quality control suffers. The level of control is far more important with an art that does not generally have a self correcting measure (ie shiai) and provides a philosophical structure which allows a certain amount of escapism.

Agreed Peter. I was just thinking the same thing about the evolution of the thread. It is one I have particularly enjoyed since it is more about the things you mentioned and less about "oh yea, well it works for me...so there!"

I was just thinking, perhaps in a real fight, if nothing else works some good Ma-ai might just do. You know, he takes one step forward you take two steps back, or if anyone is that concerned then- maybe you should get a gun and shoot the Jujitsu guy. But, that would be ridiculous.

Why would that be ridiculous? It might be the appropriate action, depending on the situaiton.

Why pick on the jujitsu guy?

Probably semantics, but if he is advancing on you, you don't necessarily want to give up ground...it depends. Usually more like irmin and take away ground. You are yielding only to put yourself in a more advantageous position to control. (in a perfect world that is!).

Aikido is not about retreating, but about options!

By gaining experience, hopefully it increases our circle of influence and span of control, with that comes options and choices. It is what we do with our emotions and how we choose to act that is most important. Ma'ai is all about creating the relationship, timing and space in order to see the all the options that are there!

It really is difficult to say what action is appropriate in a fight.

I have watched this thread for a long time and have finally decided to put my two bits in. I cannot say if Aikido would work in a fight but I will say that I work in a Correctional Facility and in my role as a member of the Emergency Response Team I have used my Aikido training several times to restrain or move offenders.

It's been said before but I will repeat it. It is not the Martial art it is the Martial artist.

An army of sheep led by a Lion will defeat an army of Lions led by a sheep.

Good luck with practice.