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Old 10-26-2008, 04:14 PM   #401
Buck
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Joe McParland wrote: View Post
Is it that he is not what he said he was---assuming, for the sake of argument, that he ever made such a statement---or is it that you believed he was something other than he was?

This is a simple question. To some it relates directly to a core objective of aikido training: masakatsu agatsu.
I don't believe/believed. Therefore there is no question simple or complex. Their is no objective to throw around in a romper-room that bounces abstracts around like a college philosphy 101 class.

This thread is dead.

Last edited by Buck : 10-26-2008 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:02 AM   #402
ChrisMoses
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
The best, what we can do, is to stop to talk about the case, and forget the person forever. It was a very similar case, a view years ago, than a very known instructor intentionally hurt his partner during a public event.
No, that would be the WORST thing we could do. Don't talk about it? Forget? This is exactly why I started this thread, because not talking about it and forgetting the person is NOT the right way to handle this.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:27 AM   #403
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
No, that would be the WORST thing we could do. Don't talk about it? Forget? This is exactly why I started this thread, because not talking about it and forgetting the person is NOT the right way to handle this.
That's rather subjective, don't you think?
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Old 10-27-2008, 02:38 PM   #404
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Hi Loni,

Do you have kids? Would you let your kids train with him, knowing what you know now?

If not, that would be a judgement, wouldn't it?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:22 PM   #405
Keith Larman
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
No, that would be the WORST thing we could do. Don't talk about it? Forget? This is exactly why I started this thread, because not talking about it and forgetting the person is NOT the right way to handle this.
Absolutely.

Those who talk about religious parables like "he who is without sin" miss the point. This isn't about tossing rocks at Mr. George. This isn't about asking to personally whack him with a bokken. What it is about is raising awareness of how these sorts of things come about. How they can and do happen. And how they so often happen in some sense at least in plain sight. So we can hopefully be better able to prevent it from happening again.

It has happened before this. It will happen again after this. The question is whether we close our eyes, plug our ears and bury our collective heads in the sand saying "we should just train and judge not..." or if we're going to closely examine ourselves and the world around us to make sure it won't/can't happen in our own corner of the world. It is an ugly thing, uncomfortable to talk about, difficult to deal with. But there is more peril in ignoring it or waving it away with pontifications or worse yet the bizarre non-sequitors by a few who post.

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Old 10-27-2008, 03:57 PM   #406
Joe McParland
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Absolutely.

Those who talk about religious parables like "he who is without sin" miss the point. This isn't about tossing rocks at Mr. George. This isn't about asking to personally whack him with a bokken. What it is about is raising awareness of how these sorts of things come about. How they can and do happen. And how they so often happen in some sense at least in plain sight. So we can hopefully be better able to prevent it from happening again.
Hmmm...

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Thread Title wrote:
Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George
Misnomer or non sequitor?

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Old 10-27-2008, 04:06 PM   #407
Keith Larman
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Speak of the devil...

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Old 10-27-2008, 05:12 PM   #408
observer
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
No, that would be the WORST thing we could do.
No, that man never has existed in our akido community. We do not have instructors who hurt their students. This discussion is over. Please do not try to convince us that we do not care about a healthy environment around us. It is paranoia. Isn't it?
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Old 10-27-2008, 06:13 PM   #409
Fred Little
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
No, that man never has existed in our akido community. We do not have instructors who hurt their students. This discussion is over. Please do not try to convince us that we do not care about a healthy environment around us. It is paranoia. Isn't it?
I'm not sure if the statement above is an example of some of the darkest and driest humor I've ever encountered, or something much, much, more confused and disturbing.

The difficulty is that if it's the latter, the misperception is not just my personal problem.

Best,

FL
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Old 10-27-2008, 06:44 PM   #410
Mark Uttech
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Onegaishimasu. The title of this thread alone tells us of news that is disturbing. And as the discussion went, it was. The subject still is. When things like this make us more aware, this is something good.

In gassho,

Mark

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Old 10-27-2008, 07:56 PM   #411
observer
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

If you ever had in mind the subject, that is a problem. Be aware. This is my point.
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Old 10-27-2008, 09:01 PM   #412
Buck
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
If you ever had in mind the subject, that is a problem. Be aware. This is my point.
My I.Q. isn't 125. So correct me if I am misunderstanding you. is your point that if we discuss child molestation, i.e. Clint George's actions, we are thus thinking about it, and therefore, it is the same thing as what Clint George did?

Or that people who think like Clint George, indulging mentally in the same actions, are a problem?

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Old 10-27-2008, 10:52 PM   #413
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

You missed my point. I am sorry.
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:25 PM   #414
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Yah, we know we missed it...

We are asking you to explain it, if it wouldn't be too much trouble...

Best,
Ron (can't believe I'm with Phil here, but hey, it happens...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-29-2008, 11:14 AM   #415
ChrisMoses
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
No, that man never has existed in our akido community. We do not have instructors who hurt their students. This discussion is over. Please do not try to convince us that we do not care about a healthy environment around us. It is paranoia. Isn't it?
The problem is that there is an assumption in many Aikido circles that the seniors in that group are better and more moral human beings because of their senior role in Aikido. That means that many things that might send up red flags in another setting are ignored, forgiven or simply not noticed in the context of the dojo (Aikido certainly isn't unique here, just see the clergy scandals, a very similar situation). This seems to be especially true with newer students, younger students and parents. No one is saying this is going on everywhere. I think many of us are saying that this is quite obviously something that *can* happen anywhere and so as parents and students it's up to each of us to be aware. Not paranoid, not on a witch hunt, just aware that it's possible.

This thread is not about casting stones, it's about raising awareness so that this kind of thing is a little bit less likely to happen in the future.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
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Old 10-29-2008, 10:07 PM   #416
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
No, that man never has existed in our akido community. We do not have instructors who hurt their students. This discussion is over. Please do not try to convince us that we do not care about a healthy environment around us. It is paranoia. Isn't it?
Are you serious?

If so, ellaborate please.
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Old 12-15-2008, 08:10 PM   #417
johnbrandt
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Christian Moses wrote:
"
The problem is that there is an assumption in many Aikido circles that the seniors in that group are better and more moral human beings because of their senior role in Aikido."

I couldn't agree more. Let us remember that even Mr. Ueshiba was just a man. His achievements in martial arts may not have made him worthy of the hush tones of reverence that I have heard many employ when discussing him.

While we all admire great achievement, we must maintain perspective to the end of disallowing any abuse by one in a position of power, regardless of how they attained that power.
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:24 AM   #418
LLY
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Loni,

Do you have kids? Would you let your kids train with him, knowing what you know now?

If not, that would be a judgement, wouldn't it?

Best,
Ron
Hi Ron,
Yes, I do have a daughter. She is 20 now. When I first started aikido, she came with me many nights to the dojo with me as I was single mom-ming it.
Yes, I would let her train with him, knowing what I know now. But she has no interest in aikido or martial arts.
Yes, I myself would still train with him on the mat.
I don't feel like my experience of Clint is any different. Yes, he made a huge mistake and bad error in judgement.
I think to some degree we all have our stuff or karma to work out in our current lifetime this time around.
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Old 12-19-2008, 07:39 AM   #419
SmilingNage
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I 've followed this thread since its inception, but couldn't find the words to match the general disgust I have for what has transpired. With that being said, time and time again during this whole poor unfortunate event, Mr George has continued to show his inability to exercise restraint or any form of judgement but bad judgement. I am perplexed and find it almost inconceivable that anyone would trust their daughter to train with this individual. Forgiveness is one thing, but to be blind by the obvious facts that Mr George's behavior ,to date, has shown he cant be trusted with young woman when alone with them, I just cant find any other word other than reckless. I "might" be able to forgive him, but trust him with a young woman never, ever, ever, ever. Its just not worth the chance, and I find hard to believe that anyone would place themselves or their daughters, or their loved one in harm's way on purpose. The man has a problem, don't allow a false sense of confidence, familiarity or borderline bravado cloud your judgement. He needs to be away from teaching, away from contact with young woman. There isnt any rationale argument that would possibly defend allowing a young woman to be alone in his presence again.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:18 AM   #420
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Loni Yien wrote: View Post
Hi Ron,
Yes, I do have a daughter. She is 20 now. When I first started aikido, she came with me many nights to the dojo with me as I was single mom-ming it.
Yes, I would let her train with him, knowing what I know now. But she has no interest in aikido or martial arts.
Yes, I myself would still train with him on the mat.
I don't feel like my experience of Clint is any different. Yes, he made a huge mistake and bad error in judgement.
I think to some degree we all have our stuff or karma to work out in our current lifetime this time around.
Wow. Give your head a shake.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 12-20-2008, 08:06 PM   #421
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Loni Yien wrote: View Post
Yes, he made a huge mistake and bad error in judgement.
"Error in judgment" is what they call it when they get caught. The error was in thinking / hoping they wouldn't. I am sorry... when someone manipulates the balance sheet of a company, lies about doing it, costs people their savings and their jobs he always says he made an "error in judgment". As if that mitigates an intentional act of a criminal and harmful nature. It's not an error in judgment, it's an intentional criminal act.

Now there might be some debate about the "intentional" nature of the crime in question. Some would say that a compulsion such as this isn't really intentional, that it is a from of mental illness. George Sensei has a great wife and child as well as step child. He had a group of people who attempted to help him after the first incident. He kissed it all off and violated the terms of his bail agreement. Intentional or not, it wasn't an "error in judgment". There was no judgment at all involved. To say so minimizes the seriousness of what has occurred.

Terms like this can be insidious. We all make "errors in judgment". Saying Clint George has made an "error in judgment" makes it seem that he is just like us or that we are like him. But the fact is that most of us do not commit acts that are both illegal, harmful to a minor victim, and destructive to our friends and family. Sure we are all flawed beings. But there are lines you do not cross. Most of us never cross them nor is it particularly difficult not to.

Quote:
I think to some degree we all have our stuff or karma to work out in our current lifetime this time around.
Yes, we are all working out our karmic inheritance. But part of that "working out" is dealing with the consequences of our actions. When someone is in denial about the seriousness of his actions and can't really comprehend the damage done to those who love him, the "working through his karma" is experiencing the results of his actions. That can be jail time, it may mean estrangement from his family, the loss of a lifetime practice, virtual shunning by his community of peers.

As I have said before, Clint was a friend of mine. I am vastly distressed by his actions. But it is a misunderstanding of the idea of "karuna" or compassion to forgive the actions and go on as before. That is exactly how Bruce Klickstein got away with abusing minor girls in his Aikido classes for a decade or so. He too was confronted at various times and each time he pleaded "error in judgment" and promised never to do it again. The victims piled up over ten years until they finally became aware of each other. The folks that had been so compassionate and forgiving had to deal with the fact that their forgiveness had allowed him to continue predating. Now THAT was an error in judgment.

I have expressed my sorrow that this has happened. I am very sorry that he has to go through this and have told him so. But he does have to go through it. No one else brought this on him. It is his karma and he will work through it or not. I can have compassion for him but I cannot keep him from the consequences of his actions nor do I wish to. It is the people who have loved and supported him only to be devastated that I would keep from all of this but I can't even do that.

If Clint has been working through his old stuff, he has just created a mass of karmic consequences which will carry him through to the next lifetime I would expect.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 12-21-2008, 09:38 AM   #422
B.J.M.
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Well said Ledyard sensei.

Very well said.
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Old 01-01-2009, 10:54 PM   #423
lmj59601
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

It might help to look up the definition of sexual predator, because that is what the actions Clint has done define him as. Mistakes made when we are careless or distracted or desparate....not when we are teachers of young children. He made choices, over and over again, to violate the law, the trust of his students and family and friends, and of the community. These are not mistakes......we have to protect our children...a 13 year old is a child, not a mistake.
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Old 01-12-2010, 07:35 AM   #424
Keith Larman
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

As a summary and as a follow up to this, Clint George is out of prison and now in Missoula, Montana. If you search the Official Montana Offenders database ( http://www.doj.mt.gov/svor/search.asp ) his record shows his sentencing date as 10/28/2008. Conviction was for one count of Sexual Assault. Victim age is listed as 13 at the time of the assault.

Original article about the arrest: http://www.helenair.com/news/article...6f7853cc4.html

Story about contact with the victim after the arrest: http://www.helenair.com/news/local/a...09502541f.html

Story about his sentence: http://www.helenair.com/news/local/a...fb9787a7d.html

Last edited by Keith Larman : 01-12-2010 at 07:37 AM. Reason: Fix a URL

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Old 01-12-2010, 08:05 AM   #425
aikidoc
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

He had a 20 year sentence of which 15 was supsended and he's out already? Must be good behavior. My concern-recidivism rate on pedophiles is extremely high.
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