Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

There's a pretty big difference between "practical self-defense" and a "no holds barred" MATCH. Apples and Oranges. And as far as traditional Japanese Martial arts goes....if it has a "Do" on the end of the name, then probabaly the people training in it are looking for something a little more than how to put someone in a submission hold. Aiki Jujistu would be a more combatative style of training, but you won't find too much submission holds as it was desinged to be a form of "line training" for the military and to be employed with the purpose of disabling an apponent on the battlefield as quickly as possible, say, if you lost your weapon or it was broken or some situation like that. So aikido isn't really the best choice of training if you looking for something to enhance your match play. It would be like practicing all the time with an M-16 A2 service rifle to get ready for a pistol match. It'll certainly help out your shooting skills, but you need to concentrate on the rifle for the rifle match. (This is just concerning the physically technical part of aikido).
good training to you though, I'm very competative as well and love to scrap and get beat up every now and again (although we get pretty darn rough at our dojo sometimes) but what I get out of aikido goes way beyond the physical (but for me, the physical side is a path to self-betterment, its just the way it works for me).
Osu!
~Adam

Emma Mason wrote: man Im HOPING aikido workx!!!! Ive got a violent ex-hubby who likes to re-emerge sporadically ..... just to remind me what fear is! im doing this for confidence so at these points I can still go to the supermarket .... if he gets me alone .... im PRAYING that ive not been paying for some nifty looking , but ultimatly usless self defence!!! (i have every faith in what ive learnt btw) so make up ur minds peeps ......will or wont i be safe? em x

IMHO won't. Take up quickly some MA where there is sparring with resistance.

But you can test it easily - take one of your friends who has NO MA experience whatsovere. Put boxing gloves on him and see if you can get a hold of his hand if he strikes. Then take the gloves off, have him run you over bad wrestling style and see if you can keep it standing. If both answers NO and you go to Aikido on SD purpose, quickly find something else. Something where you get real resistance...

im having to say that of course thats not the only reason I go NOW! ... but it is the reason I started!!!

Emma Mason wrote: im having to say that of course thats not the only reason I go NOW! ... but it is the reason I started!!!

That's all cool. Still you should find out which of your thoughts are backed up by reality and which are not. You like it? Makes you feel better? You have fun in class? That's all great if you yourself say so. Now some SD effectiveness you can not test it alone. Nor with your people in your dojo...

Have you ever visited other MA web side forums, the same topic is discussed for their arts as well. People are never satisfied. You can see the discussions about X vs Y, does it work, etc...the interesting side is; the guys from different MA's claim aikido more than aikidokas does. Mostly, people say: "I am a XXX-doka, aikido works well if you are train well and have a good instructor"...
We should exalt aikido by training hard, the rest will come by itself. O'Sensei is a sufficient example if aikido works or not.

just my opinion,
yours aiki...

Emma Mason wrote: im having to say that of course thats not the only reason I go NOW! ... but it is the reason I started!!!

I saw this reaction in an old thread:

This in Regards to Mr. Tennenhouse: I've read your articles on the advancement of aikido in real life applications on AikidoJournal.com. I 100% agree with you on EVERYTHING!!! I come from a JKD/Kung Fu and Karate background and have been in a lot of street altercations so I know what real fighting consists of! I just started Aikido 2 months ago...and I didn't start it 'cause I wanted to be a better person...I started it 'cause it's principles and many of the techniques are very effective if trained in properly...pretty much the same thing you're trying to get through. I've been posting a lot on the NHB fighting and Aikido thread here on the website and NO ONE on the thread except maybe one person agrees with me! So...I know what you're going through when people criticize and insult you because you know the truth. I just wanted to give you that word of encouragement. Also...if you have any videos of your SRA...send me some! LOL! Sincerely, Alan M. Rodriguez

I train among others with a kick boxer, some military policemen and they are not in it for the spiritual side .

Read the book "Angry white pyama's" and train harder. But check your Aikido dojo-style to see if it is concrete enough.

Emma,

I too started training in MA for many of the same reasons you discuss, what I found, however, that I study today for many different reasons than I orignially started for. My understanding and perspective has evolved over the years. Good luck to you!

As far as people having the same argument on other sites, most certainly! All arts have the same discussions. I think they are healthy and a natural part of the process of growing.


Pierre, not sure I understand what you are getting at quoting Alan Rodriquez. Is it that people study martial arts for different reasons? I think certainly that is true, however, I think also that they need to consider why they are studying what they are studying, and what they hope to get out of it.

I certainly would not waste my time studying aikido if a solely wanted to learn police tactics, I'd spend my time studying police tactics. While aikido has many applicable techniques, and a particular aikido instructor may be the local expert in use of force, I think that trying to make aikido fit this type of training is a huge waste of a persons time. Again, if that is their sole focus.

Training should be tailored or geared to you particular goals. It is not a "one size fits all". Therefore, aikido, IMHO, cannot be everything to everyone...only what the founder and his original disiciples meant it to be as taught in its paraochial form.

I think Aikido can, in a particular sense at least, be universally applied. The "aiki" part certainly can be, in my opinion, since it's principle based. In learning to deal with forces that are more forcefull than our own, we are able to over-power them. With this ability comes the potential to handle any situation as well as anyone can handle them. It does all come down to how one trained (ie-what we learn to see and feel in a situation). Hence, if i want to subdue criminals or engage in street-fights, aiki-waza will help me do that. Aikido, however, begins to remove that from possibility since the -do refers to philosophical bent. One can go to an Aikido dojo and not learn Aikido. It comes down to how the individual applies it....per my understanding at least. I think this might be part of the reason why OSensei didn't teach just anyone. Seems to me i recall reading somewhere the idea that one ought not teach immoral people for this reason. It would be terrible to make a dangerous, imbalanced person, more dangerous.
Take care,
Matt

~~Simply, if it's not Life and Death than it's still Sport. If it isn't Sport then sometimes you loose--extremely--whether you've trained not at all or for eighty years. If you survive you go home; if you happen to loose then it comes down, for me, to how you conduct yourself in that moment. That's the point of Aikido in my view~~

Ikeda sensei clearly points out that "It is not Aikido that does not work; YOUR Aikido does not work!"
Enough said!

Simply, if it's not Life and Death than it's still Sport

Don't agree here, there's a tendency to view all encounters "on the street" as life or death fights. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but the encounters I've both witnessed and been involved in have fallen far short of this and only once have I been involved in something that even resulted in serious harm. Media hype aside, I still think there's more chance of you dying in a car accident than dying in a bar brawl.

Ikeda sensei clearly points out that "It is not Aikido that does not work; YOUR Aikido does not work!"

True up to a point, but those who decry aikido also have a point in how you assess a martial art for practical purposes. Do you base your decision only on the elite proponents of the art, or grade it on a curve for time spent in the martial art. Don't get me wrong, aikido has proved sufficient for my purposes, but I'd also never defend it on the basis of being the quickest way to learn self defense - its generally not taught in that manner.

Joe I doubt you could judge a system by watching it .
as for street fighting ? Ueshiba was asked by the Japanese government to design a system for civilians to defend them self against American forces in case of invasion . now that's street fighting .

what Ushiba knew about fighting ? you'll never know as much.

"Don't agree here, there's a tendency to view all encounters "on the street" as life or death fights. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but the encounters I've both witnessed and been involved in have fallen far short of this"

I think it's a matter of how far into a situation one is looking. If you consider how chaotic most fights are, i think it's pretty reasonable to view them all as life or death encounters. You simply don't know when someone is going to take it to that level and so you have to assume every time it could happen at any time.

"Media hype aside, I still think there's more chance of you dying in a car accident than dying in a bar brawl."

This doesn't mean it won't happen. I've met "one-percenters." Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean you should assume any sense of safety from it. Simply put, you never know who you're dealing with, whether they're that vast majority or that one percent and because of that you should never assume one way or the other.

"...those who decry aikido also have a point in how you assess a martial art for practical purposes."

You can't judge an entire art on any segment of it. Take any system and you'll find some example of impracticality. I bet it's true, Aikido, being so heavily philosophically oriented, often gets caught up in mental aerobics more than Bujutsu. However, there are plenty of places that are the opposite of this and they should be considered every bit as much, if not more so. I agree in principle with what you're saying, but in my opinion it's irresponsible to say "aikido isn't practical."

"Do you base your decision only on the elite proponents of the art, or grade it on a curve for time spent in the martial art."

Base it on what it can do, not on what some or even most people make it do. You can learn Aikido quickly if from the right people...at least, you can learn enough to compare with any other martial art...in my opinion.

"but I'd also never defend it on the basis of being the quickest way to learn self defense - its generally not taught in that manner."

You may well be right...and i'm inclined to think you are, but from my experience, limited though it is, I feel able to handle myself as much as those in other martial arts with comparable time of training...of course...i could be delusional for all i really know...i did my butt thumped pretty well last week in class! Still, against people I know personally who have plenty of bar-fight experence, I feel pretty capable...it's all relative though I guess.
take care,
Matt

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Pierre, not sure I understand what you are getting at quoting Alan Rodriquez. Is it that people study martial arts for different reasons? I think certainly that is true, however, I think also that they need to consider why they are studying what they are studying, and what they hope to get out of it. I certainly would not waste my time studying aikido if a solely wanted to learn police tactics, I'd spend my time studying police tactics. While aikido has many applicable techniques, and a particular aikido instructor may be the local expert in use of force, I think that trying to make aikido fit this type of training is a huge waste of a persons time. Again, if that is their sole focus. Training should be tailored or geared to you particular goals. It is not a "one size fits all". Therefore, aikido, IMHO, cannot be everything to everyone...only what the founder and his original disiciples meant it to be as taught in its paraochial form.

Hi Kevin,

I used the quote and the example of people I train with to show Emma there are people who do Aikido for its fighting effectiveness. I hope to encourage her to find a good self defense in Aikido (other than getting out of a situation in time) and to challenge the non-believers with these very concrete example of fighters who like Aikido for the fighting side of the art.

The pre- and postwar sides of Aikido validate both the fighting and the peacefull side of it. I personally like the idea that it is possible to defend against real world attack with a kind of 'elfish' peacefull fighting system. But if no other possibility the 'elf' can become very angry and that will be effective because of some hard training.

Matthew Gano wrote: "Don't agree here, there's a tendency to view all encounters "on the street" as life or death fights. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but the encounters I've both witnessed and been involved in have fallen far short of this" I think it's a matter of how far into a situation one is looking. If you consider how chaotic most fights are, i think it's pretty reasonable to view them all as life or death encounters. You simply don't know when someone is going to take it to that level and so you have to assume every time it could happen at any time.

Just yesterday, I watched a person in his car too long in the eyes, bodybuilding posture, criminal car and outfit, he was looking like "what are you looking at", drove inches from my car to provoke. Since I seem to look arrogant it might happend he had stopped and got out. I expect such types to have at least a baseball bat in the car. There you go, you are driving home from work and accidental stare at the wrong person...

I don't know in what kind of paradise a lot of the Aikdoka live, but here this can happen everywhere, everyday. If you have an independend look and feel they will pick you out to show their bravery and power. Especially if they really feel insecure and challenged by your selfconfidence.

in my opinion it's irresponsible to say "aikido isn't practical."

no argument here, didn't realize I may have inferred this, just happily playing devils advocate.

If you consider how chaotic most fights are, i think it's pretty reasonable to view them all as life or death encounters

While I understand the viewpoint and accept it's certainly a viable attitude, in many situations I feel it's often an over-reaction which can actually be detrimental to resolving a situation. If your first reaction to any initial conflict is a "do or die" one, you've already limited your options to kill or flight, which I don't think is a credible. Weapons involved, all bets are of course off

Really I suppose I'm reacting to the almost mythic quality which is attributed to the average mugger/burglar or bar-room bully as that of a highly trained sociopath out for your blood at all costs. I don't think it helps either your self defense or even your quality of life. Accurately assessing the threat is the main way of keeping yourself safe, here to err on the side of caution is good, accepting each conflict as your chance for Valhalla, not a fan.

~~I was unclear: Violent encounters can reach the point of Life or Death in the extremity of a physical instant. My thoughts were more for holding that Life or Death mindset so that you are ready for however the moment in your life evolves or culminates. Physically, you will do things you never once imagined. You might have trained in a dojo for years and suddenly freeze; conversely, you might have had no training and pull something surprising out of yourself that halts the violent intent of the other or the encounter itself. You cannot begin to guess or surmise what will ever happen and my point was that, to me, Aikido training is a spiritual training (and not just fluff bunny stuff but deep in the fire) so that you are--hopefully--fully in your life, every moment, every movement, every thought, every breath. For me training goes far past the question of can I defend myself in a fight. When pinned under a 200lb plus person you just try to relax, gather your wits and spirit and wait for the correct moment to act. If I wished to dwell or center my training on fights or fighting then I would have remained with my previous art and wouldn't be on the Aikido path.

Again, only my take on the matter~~

Ian Hurst wrote: no argument here, didn't realize I may have inferred this, just happily playing devils advocate. While I understand the viewpoint and accept it's certainly a viable attitude, in many situations I feel it's often an over-reaction which can actually be detrimental to resolving a situation. If your first reaction to any initial conflict is a "do or die" one, you've already limited your options to kill or flight, which I don't think is a credible. Weapons involved, all bets are of course off Really I suppose I'm reacting to the almost mythic quality which is attributed to the average mugger/burglar or bar-room bully as that of a highly trained sociopath out for your blood at all costs. I don't think it helps either your self defense or even your quality of life. Accurately assessing the threat is the main way of keeping yourself safe, here to err on the side of caution is good, accepting each conflict as your chance for Valhalla, not a fan.

I completely agree.
Take care, Ian!
Matt

Pierre,

Thanks for the clarification.

It is probably somewhat semantics, but I would disagree for the most part with your assessment of fighting using aikido.

Certainly in theory it would be possible to fight from an aikido paradigm of "elfishness", but in reality, as in a life or death situation, things are not all that simple. You use whatever you can to your advantage to perserve yourself and recover to a point of control. It may not be pretty, or even look like aikido, it is whatever works.

In theory I think aikido is a wonderful art, and it the philosophy it conveys is very wonderful, even the techniques and principles are sound, however, it is not a good idea to use a real fight as an opportunity to practice the gentle art of harmony that I think very few have perfected.

I remember a time many years ago when Saotome Sensei returned from Florida to the DC dojo and was informed to be careful in the house because some crackheads had been using the dark corners around it while he was away to hide and smoke...he said "should have brought shotgun back from Florida". This is coming from a Shihan mind you.

Know your limits and capabilities. Aikido is not the best way to explore this in my experiences.

I am not proposing that aikido is invalid in a fight necessarily, however, what goes on in the dojo in the methodology we train in, and what happens for real under the fight or flight response can be very different. We should not set people's expectations up for this.

I submit that aikido is a wonderful art to convey the founders goals of understanding peace and harmony..and you can gain some valuable skills martially, however, it was not designed as a fighting system, nor is it the best method to conditon oneself mentally to handle death matches or combat.

There are many wonderful attributes that can be developed in aikido as practiced as a budo, the warrior spirit, mushin, calmness, posture, balance, and even techniques that are effective....however, once things go south, well frankly I have not been in too many dojo's that really practice this and I believe it is really beyond the scope of the art to go there.

Yes, we can make the jump mentally and visualize ourselves in action, but until you have had your ass handed to you by someone that does not want to play by your perceived rules, things are just theorectical.

I hope this makes some sense. My concern is always that everyone trys and take everything as a black or white issues that either "aikido works or it doesn't work". The problem is much more complex and deeper than that.

I have used the skills I have learned in aikido to successful De-conflict many conflicts and to cause no punches or bullets to be fired...it did not involve randori or ikkyo, or irimi, or tenkan. It simply involved "seeking to understand the individual", allowing them to move mentally and physically, de-escalating the conflict, smiling, remaining calm, and re-directing their anger and/or energy to a more positive outcome.

To me this is using aikido at it's finest! So yes, it does work in a fight.

But to approach a situation where someone jumps you and the crap is flying around the room and they have every intent on killing you, well, that is not the time to worry about violating your principles or if you are maintaining the boundaries of what is aiki or not. Things are now way past that point.

I have had many conversations with my friend Michael Neal on this issue on Aikiweb....I think he would argue that in some respects it is unfortunate that we don't practice this "impolite" side of things in aikido. I again, submit, that based on the philosophy of the founder, that it is not within the scope of his intent to make someone a fighter in the truest since of the word, but to follow the path of budo.

Sorry this is so long.

That was a great post Kevin. I think it accurately conveys the opinions and sentiments of many of the aikidoka here who have or do cross-train in more "aggressive" or combative/competitive martial arts. Well said.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I again, submit, that based on the philosophy of the founder, that it is not within the scope of his intent to make someone a fighter in the truest since of the word, but to follow the path of budo

I obviously can't speak for OSensei, and maybe his views changed and what you're talking about reflects his "final word" on the matter, but I read OSensei as saying budo, which you yourself just described as his intention, "determines life and death in an instant." Within this context, perhaps it could simply better be said that Aikido was intended to work in all martial/budo situations, but that many people don't allow it to. What do you think about this quote of his?
Take care,
Matt

Thanks for the comments Keith. I was worried it did not make much sense!

Matthew:

I think you are correct in your observation about the intent of aikido and the intent of the founder. Theorectically and Philosophically it should "work". The problem is defining the definition of "work". And asyou state "many people don't allow it to". I would add to this, "many people don't have the experience or skill to allow it to work". Also, your opponent may not "allow it to work". There are so, so many variables and paradiqms, semantics that enter into the equation that it blows my mind to even define this area.

I agree with O'Sensei's comments on "determine life or death in an instant". Police officers and soldiers practice this constantly (or should). That should not be construed, however into "one shot, one kill" as applied to the focus of your "real fight strategy" which needs to be scaled and multi-faceted to blend with the minimum use of force concept. (Which we are struggling with in the current military environment if you ask me).

I think, O'Sensei, probably did not necessarily mean for that comment to be taken at face value, but thought about, discussed (as we are doing here), and the focus of our training, which I think is the essence of budo. That however, IMHO, should not be translated directly to "aikido does or doesn't work in a fight". The situation and subject is much more complex than that.

I suppose if "determine life or death" in an instance was all that was really important in budo or fighting, then the empty hand martial art or budo would die on the vine.

Why? because we could all just walk around with the most effective modern death instrument and use it to CONTROL if someone lives or dies without regard to the "karma" we create in ourselves, that person (if we "choose" to let them live), or others that observe.

Think about the emotional environment that we construct around that paradigm. I am not allowed to get too political because of my position in the military, but think about our current operational environment and the issues we are facing.

So, I think the "determine life or death in an instance" must be coupled with a whole bunch of other stuff to accomplish O'Sensei's goals. It is more than just being gracious and merciful when you "choose" to do it. I think it requires compassion.

As Stephen Covey says the real victory is created when we create WIN/WIN vice LOSE/WIN, WIN/LOSE, or LOSE/LOSE.

I think this is what we do when we practice Budo, we make ourselves physically, mentally, and spiritually strong first. We choose to empower ourselves, to set an example, to be comfortable within our own skins, to place ourselves in a position to be compassionate. We can then when faced with adversity, mitigate things to resolve conflict from a position of influence and power. Deciding in an instance life or death of the situation.

Yes, some situations require extreme violence or use of force in a split second. Those that must face this must do it without hesitation, but they must train for that moment, and when it comes not think, but act.

As Paula points out above, it is not what you do that matters, but your frame of mind, spirit, and compassion in which you do it that matters the most. So, I think his comments are more related to the "battle within your mind" type of thing, not literally your adversary. You must first control yourself and choose the right actions for yourself, before you can be worried about your opponent.

I could be wrong, but I believe THIS is what is most important in the study of BUDO, not the physical skills, which frankly after 20 years of military service and training soldiers and seeing the affects of combat is what I have used the most. But these are my personal observations and opinions, and not the U.S. Army's.

Okay guys...whose gonna be the first to call me an "aiki frutie"

I can live what that Kevin :

I think this is what we do when we practice Budo, we make ourselves physically, mentally, and spiritually strong first. We choose to empower ourselves, to set an example, to be comfortable within our own skins, to place ourselves in a position to be compassionate. We can then when faced with adversity, mitigate things to resolve conflict from a position of influence and power. Deciding in an instance life or death of the situation. Yes, some situations require extreme violence or use of force in a split second. Those that must face this must do it without hesitation, but they must train for that moment, and when it comes not think, but act.

One remark, the "life or death"-thing is mentioned quite a lot. In my experience a lot of conflict exists before that, in the bullying and harassing area.

Yesterday on the radio I heard that 3/4 of the women feel unsafe-, and a large amount (37%) had been harrassed once or more, by a man on the street at night.

So I feel the people pay to much attention to the idea of effectiveness against the 'real streetfighter/MA specialist' while the reality of defence on the street is much easier to realise with a quite moderate Aikido capability.

Or none at all! I think there are many easier ways to mitigate the risk of violent crime or harrassment that does not involve aikido. However, the confidence, awareness, and warrior spirit that you can glean from aikido are and can be an important part of that. Just doesn't involve the fight skills per se.

I think most of us, myself included tend to view fights/conflict through a certain paradigm/filter/perception and only see the point at which we are engaged in close quarters battle for our lives. It is natural since that is the part we fear most.

I think though, that if you strip away the emotion from it, you see that there is much we can do to avoid that conflict all together, and things you can do to give yourself the tactical advantage that do not involve empty handed randori. Such as walking with a co-worker out of the office late at night when you leave to go home.

I would tend to think that the number of women who feel unsafe should be 100%. I am still amazed at the number of women I see walking alone in the strangest of places.

There fears are well founded, however, how many choose to focus or deal with that fear can be irrational. I think we do women a huge injustice in some dojos that profess to "empower" them through "women's self defense". Sure, you need to know something "just incase", but I don't think a one hour seminar is going to do you much good other than give you a false sense of complacency or calm that valid fear with a irrational solution set.

One thing I think most of these course do though is tell them to not walk alone, to have a safe room in their house, to do things that keep them safe through passive actions....these are good things.

Okay...enough rambling!

Our Sensei is often demonstrating a technique in two variants, the one we practice is the formal or applied technique, the other one is where he demonstrates a lot of Sumo-like slapping in the face while bringing Uke down with a technique. That would give us an impression of how the technique would work in a real fight. It demonstrates imo the ('90%') Atemi where is talked about often. The resemblance with Sumo, Atemi used to disturb and disbalance the opponent is 'striking'.