"Principle" of Gokyo

Shareef Muhammad wrote: As I understand the Aikido terminology, the "kyo" in Ikkyo, nikyo etc. refers to a "concept" or "principle". Ikkyo = Ude osae Nikyo = Tekubi mawashi Sankyo = Kote Hineri Yonkyo = Tekubi osae What is the "concept" or "principle" of Gokyo?

and

Shareef Muhammad wrote: Ude osae = arm pin tekubi mawashi = wrist (turn)around (sorry, exact translation is probably off). kote hineri = wrist twist (i think) Tekubi osae = wrist pin

OK. But equating the "kyo's" to alternate Japanese nomenclature then translating to crude English descriptions doesn't really point to the "lesson" or "principle."

To appreciate these principles, it is necessary to divorce them from their full kihon waza forms.

They are all fundamentally different ways to manipulate the arm/wrist/elbow. Ikkyo uses the elbow with its natural movement, nikyo over-rotates the radius with the hand directed back at the body (adduction), sankyo is an internal rotation of the forearm, yonkyo uses the ulnar or radial nerves, gokyo hyper-flexes the wrist -- palm towards elbow, and rokkyo uses the elbow against its natural movement.

It's probably a good idea to consider at least kote gaeshi (external rotation of the forearm) and mae otoshi (similar to rokkyo, but lifting) along with these.

By looking at them this light, the ways in which they complement each other and their usefulness become clearer.

Michael, your post above was truly a great post in that what you are saying totally jives with teachings about "the wisdom of the shoulder", "the wisdom of the elbow", etc... So please take this as constructive crtisism. I'm simply not convinced that your excellent way of thinking in and of itself rates as a principle. (Although it is among some of the finest examples of thinking about martial arts I have read on aikiweb.)

To me, a principle must satisfy the whole "as above so below and as below so above" concept. Basically, all principles are meta-principles of the principle of correspondance.

I think for what we learn in martial arts, training an aiki body to be able support and power vectors that wouldn't otherwise be possible is where we get to the principles behind the techniques (regardless of how sophistocated we are thinking about the wisdom of the techniques themselves).

It's really a combination of "aiki body", "wisdom of joints", experience of martial vectors, and simply martial experience in general of where am I planning to take this (neutralizing for peace, level-appropriate destruction for peace, avoidance for escape, etc.).

Saotome sensei talks about kihon mind as apposed to kihon waza. Lately, I'm focusing more on kihon body to support that kihon mind... To me, that's the principle of every kyo...

Rob

good posts Michael and Rob,
Thanks,
Ron

Inocencio Maramba wrote: The gokkyo I am referring to is illustrated below: I believe that Yoshinkan's hiji-osae or hiji kime osae is known as ude-hishigi (at least in the book by Nidai Doshu that I cited above) and is also called "rokkyo" in a lot of dojos.

You are mistaken here.The name Gokyo is translated as 5th principle.ie Go=5 Kyo=Principle.
Rokkyo is translated as 6th Principle.
Gokyo immobilisation is not the same as illustration.Illustration is Rokkyo.In Gokyo [usually against a tanto waza] your hand hold is on the inside of your partners wrist with your thumb at the leading edge of your partners wrist at heel of hand [little finger side].Gokyo is rarely if ever done as an omote waza.Contact is palm of your hand to inside of ukes wrist.Not like ikkyo.
Rokkyo is done by inside arm controlling opponents arm [a bit like tsuki Kote gaeshi ] the using a tenkan motion , place your elbow over topof ukes elbow joint , control wrist with your other hand and then exert pressure /torque on uke elbow.also using rotational body movement at the same time.

Curran Sensei, the picture I originally linked to illustrate gokkyo was removed from the web. I have located another version and am posting it below:


I trust that this is now correct. Thank you for your comments.

Joe Curran wrote: You are mistaken here.The name Gokyo is translated as 5th principle.ie Go=5 Kyo=Principle. Rokkyo is translated as 6th Principle. Gokyo immobilisation is not the same as illustration.Illustration is Rokkyo.In Gokyo [usually against a tanto waza] your hand hold is on the inside of your partners wrist with your thumb at the leading edge of your partners wrist at heel of hand [little finger side].Gokyo is rarely if ever done as an omote waza.Contact is palm of your hand to inside of ukes wrist.Not like ikkyo. Rokkyo is done by inside arm controlling opponents arm [a bit like tsuki Kote gaeshi ] the using a tenkan motion , place your elbow over topof ukes elbow joint , control wrist with your other hand and then exert pressure /torque on uke elbow.also using rotational body movement at the same time.

Inocencio Maramba wrote: Curran Sensei, the picture I originally linked to illustrate gokkyo was removed from the web. I have located another version and am posting it below: I trust that this is now correct. Thank you for your comments.

Dear Inocencio,
Your freshly posted illustrations [ from Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere] do indeed show Gokkyo.The second last illustration is the normal pin [in suwariwaza].This pin method enables tori to exert pressure on Ukes wrist joint forcing Uke to release any potential weapon which uke might have.
Rokkyo on the other and forces the uke to release any weapon held by application of pressure to ukes elbow joint in a [TachiWaza] standing position.Nice to meet you by the way.
I hope my little comments help here, All the best , Joe.

Curran Sensei,
Thank you again for your comments, they are quite helpful. I did practice before at a British Birankai club (then British Aikikai) at the University of Warwick and at the Ei Mei Kan under Chris Mooney Sensei in Birmingham. This was in 2000-2001. I also attended Ichiro Shibata Sensei's seminar in Birmingham in 2000.
I train mostly in Plymouth and Swansea now but I look forward to meeting you in person sometime soon.
Best wishes,

Inocencio (Cito)

Inocencio Maramba wrote: Curran Sensei, Thank you again for your comments, they are quite helpful. I did practice before at a British Birankai club (then British Aikikai) at the University of Warwick and at the Ei Mei Kan under Chris Mooney Sensei in Birmingham. This was in 2000-2001. I also attended Ichiro Shibata Sensei's seminar in Birmingham in 2000. I train mostly in Plymouth and Swansea now but I look forward to meeting you in person sometime soon. Best wishes, Inocencio (Cito)

Dear Inocencio,
I note you know Mr Mooney /Mr Ian Grubb , both colleagues of mine.I will be seeing them this weekend .I had the privilege and pleasure of visiting Warwick Uni Aikido section where I had a brilliant time with the young enthusiastic skilful students.I wish you well and I hope perhaps we may meet some time.
All the best , Joe.

Inocencio Maramba wrote: The gokkyo I am referring to is illustrated below: I believe that Yoshinkan's hiji-osae or hiji kime osae is known as ude-hishigi (at least in the book by Nidai Doshu that I cited above) and is also called "rokkyo" in a lot of dojos.

That ain´t a gokyo where I train (Aikikai, Tokyo). That is a 6-kyo, or technically a wakigatame.

Willi Brix wrote: That ain´t a gokyo where I train (Aikikai, Tokyo). That is a 6-kyo, or technically a wakigatame.

You are correct. Thank you.