JuJutsu reminds me why I love and am drawn to aikido

I spent this evening watching a JuJutsu class. I was also privileged to watch a student take his brown belt test. I remember The Shihan, or rather Saunces from the 90's when I began my odyssey with Aikido. She was a mid level kyu JuJutsu student. Now she is a highly ranked instructor. What about the Jujutsu made Aikido clearer to me?

1. My original Sensei taught us forward breakfalls (I don't see those too much any longer. Even though I can't do them anymore LOL)

2. The angles in JuJutsu distinguished the circles of Aikido moves for me.

3. Her class reminded me that breakfalls are necessary in some instances, albeit we may not "slap" out. But we definitely need to know how to fall in a variety of ways, to save our necks...

4. It reminds me that while we cooperate in class, we need to take our training seriously and understand that we should always keep our wits around us and have a method of escape.

5. It reminded me that it is totally possible for a woman to save her own life, if trained. I watched a 5 foot, 135 pound lady TRULY throw a 6'2" 250 pound dude. SOFTLY, because she controlled his body weight and movement.

All these things remind me of some of the basic tenants of my Aikido training: Position, Foot placement, Timing, and unified body movement (or coordinated, if you will).

Great stuff...I'm so excited, I can't wait to get back on the mat. I'm suffering from a bit of cabin fever, because I somehow twisted my Knee about three weeks ago. So I'm waiting for it to be right, before I push myself and create a major injury out of a minor one.

Train well and enjoy the ride!! BUUYAHH..

Antonia Williams wrote: I spent this evening watching a JuJutsu class. I was also privileged to watch a student take his brown belt test. I remember The Shihan, or rather Saunces from the 90's when I began my odyssey with Aikido. She was a mid level kyu JuJutsu student. Now she is a highly ranked instructor. What about the Jujutsu made Aikido clearer to me? 1. My original Sensei taught us forward breakfalls (I don't see those too much any longer. Even though I can't do them anymore LOL) 2. The angles in JuJutsu distinguished the circles of Aikido moves for me. 3. Her class reminded me that breakfalls are necessary in some instances, albeit we may not "slap" out. But we definitely need to know how to fall in a variety of ways, to save our necks... 4. It reminds me that while we cooperate in class, we need to take our training seriously and understand that we should always keep our wits around us and have a method of escape. 5. It reminded me that it is totally possible for a woman to save her own life, if trained. I watched a 5 foot, 135 pound lady TRULY throw a 6'2" 250 pound dude. SOFTLY, because she controlled his body weight and movement. All these things remind me of some of the basic tenants of my Aikido training: Position, Foot placement, Timing, and unified body movement (or coordinated, if you will). Great stuff...I'm so excited, I can't wait to get back on the mat. I'm suffering from a bit of cabin fever, because I somehow twisted my Knee about three weeks ago. So I'm waiting for it to be right, before I push myself and create a major injury out of a minor one. Train well and enjoy the ride!! BUUYAHH..

I think you defined modern aikido but maybe didn't put the pieces together.

You wrote, "basic tenants of my Aikido training: Position, Foot placement, Timing,"

The basic tenants of jujutsu are position, body placement, and timing. In other words aikido=jujutsu. The modern aikido world focuses quite a bit on moving, positioning, and timing. It's jujutsu.

If we go back to Daito ryu, the parent art of aikido, we find a breakdown into these parts: jujutsu, aiki jujutsu, and aiki no jujutsu. Aiki no jujutsu being the highest level. The basis is jujutsu. Jujutsu is an important part. However, without aiki, it's just jujutsu. As some have noted, not even great jujutsu. It's twisted, convoluted jujutsu.

Hmmm ... could that be why it takes 20+ years to master? Yet, historically, the greats got very good in far less time (5-10 years but there are threads about this already).

The two components, jujutsu and aiki, must both be there. It's why each system can be valid in overall approach. Tomiki had his own experiences and background and created an approach that suited him. Those that learn that approach follow in Tomiki's footsteps. The jujutsu is the vehicle while aiki is the engine. Jujutsu is the house while aiki is the foundation. Without both, you have a non-working entity.

Missing aiki, you have a system that does not equal other martial arts. Without the jujutsu, you just have the potential but not the outlet. The vision for a work of art, but not the material to build it.

Some have started putting both together. In a few years, hopefully, beautiful works of art, architecturally gorgeous houses, or sleek cars will emerge to stand out. To show the world what Aikido and Daito ryu's potential truly can be. That the world hasn't lost the caliber of Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, etc.

To those working towards that goal and to those trying to do the same, you are the hope for a better future. To those who have dismissed all of this, I just ask that you keep an open mind. After all, if the greats could train 5-10 years and get very good, then there's hope for anyone to do the same. It's never too late to start...

It's great that you've retained that passion.

On this subject...is JuJutsu the same as Jujitsu? I've researched around and I think it is...just different spellings.

From my layman's point of view, without splitting hairs, Aikido enables one to survive an encounter against multiple opponents and survive whereas JuJitsu is a one on one endeavor. Reading the ancient stories of Samurai, I get the impression that JuJitsu was a disarming, law-enforcement system.
I choose Aikido personally but this isn't to say I think the one is better than the other: just different personal choices for studying.
On a side note I think people misunderstand JuJitsu in MMA and Ultimate Fighting by thinking it's the pinnacle form for fighting men and training.
No doubt the MMA fighters are physically "designed" by intense training to be top-knotch fighters with abnormal threshholds with an arsenal of skills; (JuJitsu being an important part); but it's one on one, and rule obeying; (not to mention weaponless).
Their throat, eyes and groin are just as tender as the next person's.
Of course you bet your money on them...I'm just sayin'.

Eugene, I disagree with most of your post framing both aikido and Jiu Jitsu categorically.

Mark frames the subject fairly well above concerning the focus of the differences in training methodology I think. Those differences in training are not related to tactics at all, but in training different aspects of the same system.

Many folks, I believe erroneously assume that aikido is a separate and distinct system of tactics that is designed for multiple opponents. I can certainly see how people get that impression as certainly multiple opponent scenarios are considered in the way we train, however, jiu jitsu or ju jitsu systems also can and do consider these things as well.

Jiu Jitus systems vary widely on what ranges of combat/tactics they will train on so it is very incorrect to categorically say that AIkido does this, and Jiu Jitsu does that.

Some systems like BJJ for instance, will concentrate heavily on ne waza and ground technique whereas Judo, also considered jiu jitsu will focus on throws, and then there are whole other systems that will consider a large range of combat from weapons to ne waza and everything in between!

On a side note I think people misunderstand JuJitsu in MMA and Ultimate Fighting by thinking it's the pinnacle form for fighting men and training.

The only people I have found that misunderstand this are the folks the neither do jiu jitsu, do MMA, or UFC. Those that do these things completely understand the role and importance that jiu jitsu skills play in the scope and breadth of fighting.

AND there are alot of folks out there that do talk about what they know based on limited knowledge of the subject!

No doubt the MMA fighters are physically "designed" by intense training to be top-knotch fighters with abnormal threshholds with an arsenal of skills; (JuJitsu being an important part); but it's one on one, and rule obeying; (not to mention weaponless). Their throat, eyes and groin are just as tender as the next person's. Of course you bet your money on them...I'm just sayin'.

Not sure what your point is here...but it seems to imply that these folks can't possibly know much about multiple opponents since they obviously are such specialist in one on one.

Again, spend some time with these individuals and I think you would find that they have a very real and pragmatic understanding of the reality of things on the street to include multiple opponents.

Aikido can certainly be many things...I refer you back to Mark Murray's post above...I think he outlines it decently concerning aiki, aiki jitsu, and aiki no jitsu. It is about methodology to learn various skills and develop your body...some of the skills are tactics and mechanical...other methodologies (aiki) are to develop other skills "internally" that allow you to do other things...Jiu Jitsu and Aikido are not two different systems of tactics based on single or multiple opponents...way too over simplistic.

I prefaced my post with "layman" and my "without splitting hairs" it's just "my view" not a in-depth -thesis on what I know or don't know. Just talkin' on a MA forum and yes I've hung around JiuJitsu (again the spelling?) guys and they roll on the floor with one guy...that's my point.

Eugene Leslie wrote: No doubt the MMA fighters are physically "designed" by intense training to be top-knotch fighters with abnormal threshholds with an arsenal of skills; (JuJitsu being an important part); but it's one on one, and rule obeying; (not to mention weaponless). Their throat, eyes and groin are just as tender as the next person's. Of course you bet your money on them...I'm just sayin'.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Not sure what your point is here...but it seems to imply that these folks can't possibly know much about multiple opponents since they obviously are such specialist in one on one.

My point is pretty self-explanitory don't you think? I'm saying they're monsters of scrapping but take away the rules and grandma can kick 'em in the nuts or gouge out their eye...once again just commenting on my point of view..

Believe me I'm the last guy on earth to blow my own horn especially about something I just finished admitting I was a layman of..

Cheers!

To resonate a bit with the OP, I just came back from a really great Jujutsu camp where we had a range of instructors including Aikido (me), Jujutsu, Judo and Hapkido sharing ideas and training together. It was great to see the "specializations" of each of the "do" methods and then see how the Jujutsu system we train in just brought it all into one holistic, powerful combative approach.

For me, Jujutsu just reminds me of the place Aikido has in the grand scheme of all Budo and encourages me to increase my knowledge and skill in the specializations that our Aikido attempts to develop.

The result is Aiki-waza that is well honed for its purpose and Ju-waza that is also honed for its purpose, coming together seamlessly as the encounter enfolds in freeplay.

Was a fun weekend.

Just thought I'd share.

LC

Hey Eugene. I understand. Jiu Jitsu or Ju Jitsu..sure, many do roll around on the floor with one guy. However, that only one aspect of the spectrum of training. Most of us in Aikido only train with one partner for like...what 90% of our training too, however because we spend like 10% of our time doing a fairly cooperative form of Randori we are all of a sudden a leg up on everyone else in multiple opponents. I have not found this to be the case, and simply am offering my perspective that you have to be very careful about the assumptions and inference that you make..it can get you in trouble in reality. (I know this from first hand experience lol!)

My point is pretty self-explanitory don't you think? I'm saying they're monsters of scrapping but take away the rules and grandma can kick 'em in the nuts or gouge out their eye...once again just commenting on my point of view..

Well it is self explanatory..but I have been through this logic so many times with folks both on the internet and in real life and I can certainly understand how you can easily go down this logic path, however it is not a correct inference.

It is hard to describe over the internet, but if we were together, I'd say "okay, cool....lets go with your eye strikes, gouges, and groin strikes...I get to do them too right?" Along with all the other stuff you get to do...

Bottom line is either you know how to fight and can achieve dominance or you can't. These guys know how to do that, multiple opponent or not. Just because groin shots are allowed doesn't mean they all of a sudden can't fight!

Multiple opponents is another factor/variable...if you can't beat one person...all of a sudden you can beat two?

All I am trying to convey is you have to be careful about the logic and inference you are forming around this subject. I know it is an easy path to go down...went down it myself for a long while!

It is easy to rationalize this stuff in his manner...so I understand!

Not trying to tear you apart on this...just that it is not so simple and again, I can certainly understand the rationale of how you can come to these conclusions simply based on a layman's observation!

Eugene Leslie wrote: I'm saying they're monsters of scrapping but take away the rules and grandma can kick 'em in the nuts or gouge out their eye...once again just commenting on my point of view..

I think this only applies if the Jujutsu person you are dealing with is mentally bound by rules, meaning that even when rules don't apply they are still subconsciously self-constrained.

I've seen this happen to some Judoka who try to randori in our Jujutsu system, which is purely focused on self defence and combative application - because the Judo rules are so strong in their mind and affects so much of their tactical decisions they find themselves at a disadvantage often. Sport Jujutsuka are also in this bunch, but fare better imho.

That aside, what Kevin says above is correct. When the rules are open, they are open to all participants.

Best

LC

Very well put Larry!

Yes, becoming a victim of your own paradigm happens very easily for sure! I catch it happening to myself all the time.

Eugene Leslie wrote: ... (not to mention weaponless). Their throat, eyes and groin are just as tender as the next person's. Of course you bet your money on them...I'm just sayin'.

Just a quick aside. Training in sport based martial arts does not preclude a focus on self defense.

I once trained with a bjj instructor who spent a great deal of time talking about the street. His style used eye gouges, groin/kidney kicks, biting, etc. He still taught bjj fundamentals, but after that hour of class he had 30 minutes of the strangest bjj I had ever done. It was very interesting, and imho mostly obvious (break his posture in your guard, bite his ear off, or if the guy stands up, groin kick so you can stand up, etc).

I removed most of your post except for the weapon part. Assuming someone is weaponless is always a bad decision. I train in boxing, bjj, and judo. If I was to get into a street fight, what would I use to defend myself? (This is a loaded question )

Eugene Leslie wrote: Their throat, eyes and groin are just as tender as the next person's. Of course you bet your money on them...I'm just sayin'.

Yes... but from what I have seen they are in better shape, and faster than most people that do Aikido - so getting to their groin and throat may be an issue. - not to mention if they punch you in the nose. [I hate that part]

Again, they deal with real-time punching, etc.
[Also, they are conditioned to take punches and kicks... try starting a thai boxing class and have someone repeatedly kick you with their shins - not fun... however this adds a dynamic most people arent considering who strictly take Aikido.]

[Only saying - just started MMA training to see how Aikido mixes with it, and this is what I have taken away so far. Basically I see Aikido as a "finishing art" for someone who is well versed in other arts, as well as in shape. - they get to 'toy' with their opponent]

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
Don & Kevin could wipe the floor with me!
... step by step Ill get the puzzle together.

This has turned away from it's original purpose pretty quick... Why does everything on this site always end with who's system is the best way to kick ass?

If you are counting on groin strikes, eye gouging, multiple attackers.... you have already taken it away from a nice neat equation that can be solved by simple debate. If it is truly anything goes, why wouldn't I use my bear mace, why can't he use his gun, why can't the guy over there that has nothing to do with the conflict whatsoever jump in and start kicking both of our asses so he can be the biggest bad ass in cell block D, what if a grizzly bear saw the conflict and decided it wanted to eat the winner (unless be had bear mace :P)? Even experienced fighters have bad days, can get distracted, can be sick, can be 1/2 a second late for no good reason, and that can be enough to end it. There is no such thing as a sure thing in life, and most street fight I have seen are over before the other guy knows there is a conflict. Why does every one seem to think they found the right combination of Judo, Boxing, and thumb wrestling to make themselves invincible?

I don't think anyone as claimed that the combination of judo, boxing, and thumb wrestling will make them invincible.

Just a discussion about stereotypes and paradigms and how you have to be careful to not generalize or from assumptions based on a particular training methodology.

What made you make the conclusion that someone inferred invincibility? I don't see it.

Granted, the thread does not necessariliy follow what the OP posted.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I don't think anyone as claimed that the combination of judo, boxing, and thumb wrestling will make them invincible. Just a discussion about stereotypes and paradigms and how you have to be careful to not generalize or from assumptions based on a particular training methodology. What made you make the conclusion that someone inferred invincibility? I don't see it. Granted, the thread does not necessariliy follow what the OP posted.

Venting my frustration partially, but I am trying to stop the conversation from going that way. Every time someone mentions UFC, MMA, or BJJ on this forum it inevitably turns into the same discussion. I am not downing any style or martial art here, but I am tired of 12 year-olds bragging about how they could beat up anyone because they do aikido every other weekend at the YMCA and have a yellow belt from karate america. I said no one was invincible because both could win, especially in a fight with no rules. It seems to be logically flawed to continue in such a ludicrous question. I don't think any serious discussion about Aikido can be made concerning whether it can be used to beat up X's art. Not that the idea of Aikido being practical is outlandish, but because who wins a fight has more to do with when, where, how, who, why, and what they are fighting... which are largely undefined. To me this question is as ridiculous as asking someone what is the best way to shoot your foot? There are already two sides on this debate, though...

Ryan Szesny wrote: Venting my frustration partially, but I am trying to stop the conversation from going that way. Every time someone mentions UFC, MMA, or BJJ on this forum it inevitably turns into the same discussion.

Well, that's when you need to bring out the circus ponies. Duh.

Mary, What's that?

Well, that's when you need to bring out the circus ponies. Duh

You know, dressed-up little horsies pulling clowns and monkies around in wagons.

I, personally, always look forward to a great performance by "Tiffy the Dancing Elephant"...yeah, baby!

Josh Phillipson wrote: Mary, What's that?

A reference to this famous post from rec.martial-arts (remember Usenet?). In response to a "but what if your attacker is also trained, but what if he does this, but what if he does that" scenario:

hen, I guess there'd be nothing left for me to do but to let the circus ponies trample him to death. Where'd I get the circus ponies? From the same place you got a black belt who started a fight for no reason, started it stupidly, attacked what he thought was a helpless "victum", managed to get free of my hold or take-down, decided to start fighting 'like a black belt', was able to
immediately break both my knee and my jaw, and somehow is under the delusion that because of a broken knee and jaw, I am now at his mercy.

So, just remember, the Circus Ponies of Death are capable of trampling anyone or anything into a bad-smelling paste -- but their favorite target is a preposterous fight scenario.

Ryan,

, but because who wins a fight has more to do with when, where, how, who, why, and what they are fighting.

I understand your frustration for sure.

However what are the options you have? to do nothing? To leave things to fate?

All the things you mention, the 5 Ws and How...are all things that can be framed and identfied as factors. All of these things can be mitigated to a certain degree and we can reduce risk of failure by taking appropriate measures.

I will be the first to agree that Empty Handed MA training alone is a stupid and inefficient mechanism/method to place all your eggs in one basket on. Also, there seems to be a huge irrational and emotional attachment to the notion of empty handed fighting.

That some how we will meet our adverary in an sterile open field wiht nothing around us but ourselves OR in a sterile alley with one way out and an nothing at our disposal.

Somehow this has become a fixation and our training many times centers around these notions as being the worst case scenario!

Oh yea, and we have parity with the individuals we are fighitng!

However, if we take the 5Ws, environmental factors, situations etc and we look at them void of emotion and then adapt sane strategies for mitigating those risk, then there is quite a bit we can do about the fight.

Some systems and organizations and teachers deal with this better than others. Some methods of training recognize the elements of a fight better than others and work on solutions to mitigate those risk given a distinctive set of parameters.

This will never stop the newbs from transferrence, inferrence, and forming assumptions and expectations that are stupid and unrealistic. That will go on forever and there is nothing we can do about it!

BUT, we should be careful to not dismiss that there is much we can do in our training to fix alot of stuff that might just save our ass in a fight.

do

Mary Malmros wrote: A reference to this famous post from rec.martial-arts (remember Usenet?). In response to a "but what if your attacker is also trained, but what if he does this, but what if he does that" scenario: hen, I guess there'd be nothing left for me to do but to let the circus ponies trample him to death. Where'd I get the circus ponies? From the same place you got a black belt who started a fight for no reason, started it stupidly, attacked what he thought was a helpless "victum", managed to get free of my hold or take-down, decided to start fighting 'like a black belt', was able to immediately break both my knee and my jaw, and somehow is under the delusion that because of a broken knee and jaw, I am now at his mercy. So, just remember, the Circus Ponies of Death are capable of trampling anyone or anything into a bad-smelling paste -- but their favorite target is a preposterous fight scenario.

nice Mary!

Kevin Leavitt wrote: nice Mary!

I'm not sure did you read the rest of that post-

With more and correct training, when you respond with as much as you can muster, you will be responding with control, subtlety of technique, deflections, preventions, etc., rather than with tracheotomies, or jump spinning somersaulting double back flip squealing dragon testical rips (except for Mary, of course, who does these reflexively if someone so much as *sneezes* in the same *county*).

That doesn't sound like Nice Mary. Especially, since I have a cold. Aaaaah...

Mary, That is outstanding. Thanks. I had been wondering about that for a long time. Another of my childhood mysteries put to rest.
aaah <kicks up feet>

Oh yeah.
totally miss usenet. po'd that my ipprovider blocks access to that. reams of quality stuff cordoned off forever. google's access is okay; but only but a small part of that.

<sorry for OT sidebar>

David Board wrote: I'm not sure did you read the rest of that post- That doesn't sound like Nice Mary. Especially, since I have a cold. Aaaaah...

I dunno. I can't read the original post as it is blocked at my work.

Not sure based on the additional info you provided what to make of the comments about "proper training"

I simply thought that "circus ponies" is appopropriate and no less absurb of an assumption to throw into a situation given the criteria, assumptions, and scenarios that are sometimes imagined.

so, heck, why not throw in Circus Ponies....that was kinda my point as well concerning the "naked in the middle of a field with nothing else around you!" comment.

Mary is usually a pragmatic individual on her post and very cutting to the point of the issue void of emotion...although with a hint of sarcasm thrown in! To me, I see this as that.

So why not throw in circus ponies into the mix as well into the "what if's"!

Kevin Leavitt wrote: I dunno. I can't read the original post as it is blocked at my work. Not sure based on the additional info you provided what to make of the comments about "proper training" I simply thought that "circus ponies" is appopropriate and no less absurb of an assumption to throw into a situation given the criteria, assumptions, and scenarios that are sometimes imagined. so, heck, why not throw in Circus Ponies....that was kinda my point as well concerning the "naked in the middle of a field with nothing else around you!" comment. Mary is usually a pragmatic individual on her post and very cutting to the point of the issue void of emotion...although with a hint of sarcasm thrown in! To me, I see this as that. So why not throw in circus ponies into the mix as well into the "what if's"!

Sorry, just being silly. I do have the a bit of cold and have been on the verge of sneezing for about an hour. The threat of Mary executing "jump spinning somersaulting double back flip squealing dragon testical rips" has resulted in a stuck sneeze. And to be honest while impressive I'm not sure the technique sounds "nice".

That being said ponies are nice. Well unless one is being trampled.

I knew I should have put in a smilie...

Ms Williams,

I would like to apologize for the destruction of your thoughts and sharing in this thread.

Train well,

Mickey.