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Tatiana
08-30-2004, 11:25 AM
Hi guys!!
:confused: I've got a question, and it's really giving me a pain in the neck, beacuase I can't seem to find out... Does any one know the difference between Ki Aikido and normal Aikido, or is it the same thing??? Thanks in advance!!

Tat :D
:ai: :ki: :do:

DaveO
08-30-2004, 11:50 AM
Ki-Aikido is the aikido performed by the Ki Society; founded by Kiochi Tohei. The actual style of aikido is called 'Shin-shin Toitsu'; or 'Mind and body co-ordinated'.
Performance-wise; all styles are considerably different from another so there's really nothing that separates it farther apart from any other style. Ki-aikido is much softer than other styles; much more emphasis is placed on unbalancing and leading uke than in other styles. Also; some techniques are different - for instance; we don't use the wrist manipulation kote-gaeshi; instead we use kote-oroshi. (The difference is kote-gaeshi twists the wrist outward along the line of the little finger; basically. Kote-oroshi bends the wrist straight down. A minor difference; a vast difference in movement dynamic.)
Hope that helps - cheers!

Tatiana
08-30-2004, 12:31 PM
Thanks Dave!!
It was just that you weren't the first person to tell me about Ki Aikido when you answered to my intro, So I kinda got REALLY curiouse and just HAD to ask about Ki Aikido... :D Thanks a stack!!! ;)

Tat

kironin
08-30-2004, 01:57 PM
Ki Aikido is really sort of western slang for various styles heavily influenced by Koichi Tohei Sensei. Generally they are styles that have
some form of his Ki Development training. Mind and Body Coordination training really is more apt description given it's Japanese name Shin Shin Toitsu Do. Of the top of my head, this would include Ki Society, AAA, Shin Budo Kai, Kokikai, British Ki Federation, Yuishinkai, and various independent dojos.

Some Ki Society dojos in the west use it in their name but some dojos not affiliated with Ki Society also use it even though it tends to be most closely associated with Ki Society.

MaryKaye
08-30-2004, 02:53 PM
One of the practical differences between dojo that identify themselves as Ki-Aikido and others is the heavy use of "ki tests" to help the student assess his/her balance, ki extension, and calmness. My dojo is affiliated with Ki Society International and we do separate ranking in Ki Development, parallel to the aikido ranking though with fewer ranks, and spend quite a lot of time on it. When I've visited non-Ki Society dojo, the ki tests have either been fewer and more informal, or omitted completely.

For my next testing I will need to pass third kyu aikido and chukyu ki development, and frankly I'm more worried about chukyu. The tests are so darned simple that you can't get through with cleverness or trickery; you really need the required degree of control. Sensei will just glance down, notice that my toes are turning white because I'm using them to dig into the mat, shake his head sadly and move on....

I used to wonder if this was a good use of our time, but I've come to feel that it is. I've been training with a first-kyu student who already has his shoden (ki-development black belt), and admiring the ways in which the ki training informs his aikido--he has a definite edge on the other first kyus in understanding some aspects of technique. Attempts to use muscle or speed on him invariably end with the perpetrator on the mat feeling quite confused.

Mary Kaye

tedehara
08-30-2004, 03:00 PM
Not only does the Ki Society practice its own style of aikido, but it also does things that are usually outside of the average aikido school. Ki development exercises, ki testing, ki breathing, ki meditation and kiatshu-ho, a form of accupressure healing, are some non-aikido practices. It also has its own forms for short staff (jo) and wooden sword (bokken). They have also developed a taigi contest, where nage and uke are judged on points.

The ki-aikido techniques are dynamic, in that there are changes made yearly. These changes are made at the headquarters dojo in Japan and usually taught through the national instructors' meetings in various countries.

shihonage
08-30-2004, 03:06 PM
Ki Aikido practitioners have the ability to fly above trees, but usually only when inside an aircraft or, in less fortunate cases, after being shot from a catapult.

tedehara
08-30-2004, 03:21 PM
Ki Aikido practitioners have the ability to fly above trees, but usually only when inside an aircraft or, in less fortunate cases, after being shot from a catapult. :D

DaveO
08-30-2004, 03:42 PM
...after being shot from a catapult.

LOL - I always wanted to try that; get shot from a catapult (or better; a trebuchet) off Angel Falls wearing a parachute. :D

That'd be fun!!!

kironin
08-31-2004, 02:48 AM
yep forgot about Shiohira Sensei. :D

kironin
08-31-2004, 02:53 AM
to quote an essay from my former teacher, George Simcox Sensei,

Ki training is the path to meeting the performance objectives of Aikido. As taught by O'Sensei, Ki was developed through diligent practice of Aikido. Koichi Tohei, founder of the Ki Society International and last Chief Instructor appointed by O'Sensei, found that, by employing a few simple principles which he developed during his teaching of others, he could speed the development of Ki awareness within students and show them how to improve the flow of Ki energy in their body. This revolutionized instruction in Aikido and is developing a group of Aikido students which start their training with relaxation and softness as a part of their "going in philosophy". This results in a martial artist who has their civilizing forces strengthened, rather than weakened, during training.

shihonage
08-31-2004, 04:41 AM
yep forgot about Shiohira Sensei. :D

Shiohira Sensei (chief instructor of Pacific Aikido Federation) is Aikikai.

happysod
08-31-2004, 04:44 AM
Are they, damn, I thought the great treaty of 1527 had annexed this sensei (as well as some outlying sensei who couldn't run fast enough), oh well.

Craig etc have been coy, they forget to mention how much prettier, intelligent and generally cooler us Ki-types are (well, possibly not DaveO, but there's always outliers) and you should really see us hop...

kironin
08-31-2004, 08:41 AM
Shiohira Sensei (chief instructor of Pacific Aikido Federation) is Aikikai.

so ?

have you read his bio ?

I have taken classes from him.


Ki Aikido is more a style with a lineage like Iwama Ryu is.

Aikikai is not a style - it's umbrella organization of many styles.

Tatiana
08-31-2004, 11:00 AM
LOL! Ok..... Adrenalin 99,9%..... 100% on its way... LOL!

Ki Aikido practitioners have the ability to fly above trees, but usually only when inside an aircraft or, in less fortunate cases, after being shot from a catapult.

Tatiana
08-31-2004, 11:08 AM
OMG!!!! I've never been one for adrenalin... But that must be so much fun!!! :D Kool!!!

LOL - I always wanted to try that; get shot from a catapult (or better; a trebuchet) off Angel Falls wearing a parachute. :D

That'd be fun!!!

Tatiana
08-31-2004, 11:13 AM
Hey Guys...! Thanks for the help!! I never thought that I would get so many replys!!!! :D Thanks to all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

((hugzz))
Tat

Tatiana
08-31-2004, 12:10 PM
One more question.. I know I should post this in the language forum... But... :D What is GI????? I've seen it all over the show, and I still don't know what it is... :( Thanks in advance guys!!!

((HUGZ))
Tat

DaveO
08-31-2004, 01:35 PM
:) The Gi is the white uniform worn by students. :)

Ron Tisdale
08-31-2004, 02:01 PM
Ok, actually, the gi doesn't exist...

We wear a DOGI when we train. Gi is the shortened (and really improper) version of dogi.

Pedantically yours,
Ron (saw Ellis sign one this way, couldn't help but imitate him :))

shihonage
08-31-2004, 02:31 PM
so ?

have you read his bio ?

I have taken classes from him.


Ki Aikido is more a style with a lineage like Iwama Ryu is.

Aikikai is not a style - it's umbrella organization of many styles.

Judge a tree by the fruit it bears, not by the man who planted it.

There are no separate "ki exercises" during class.
There are no "ki tests" during exams.
"Ki" is hardly ever mentioned during training, which is pretty much 100% focused on technique.

Two people in this thread already mentioned the "ki practice" as the key trait by which Ki Aikido dojos can be identified.

DaveO
08-31-2004, 03:06 PM
Judge a tree by the fruit it bears, not by the man who planted it.

There are no separate "ki exercises" during class.
There are no "ki tests" during exams.
"Ki" is hardly ever mentioned during training, which is pretty much 100% focused on technique.

Two people in this thread already mentioned the "ki practice" as the key trait by which Ki Aikido dojos can be identified.

Errmm............. :confused:

I'm trying to figure out the focus of these messages - either Alexsey doesn't know much about ki-aikido or he's trying to make a point I missed.

There are separate ki exercises during class. There are also ki tests during examinations. Ki is discussed very heavily; since it is a critical component of how we train.

Ron Tisdale
08-31-2004, 03:19 PM
Aleksey is speaking of Shiohira Sensei, and I have no idea whether or not he (Shiohira Sensei) teaches using the Shin Shin Toitsu methodology...perhaps Aleksey or Craig can clarify...

RT

Tatiana
08-31-2004, 03:24 PM
AAAAAAANH!!!!!!!!!! So that's what gi is... here we call it a kimono.... :p Finally!!!!!! The mtseries of life - I mean, Aikido - are being reveald!!! LOL! :D Thanks!!!!!

Tatiana
08-31-2004, 03:25 PM
Thanks Ron!! Really apreciated.. All this help that you've been giving me! ;)

Aleksey is speaking of Shiohira Sensei, and I have no idea whether or not he (Shiohira Sensei) teaches using the Shin Shin Toitsu methodology...perhaps Aleksey or Craig can clarify...

RT

shihonage
08-31-2004, 03:40 PM
Errmm............. :confused:

I'm trying to figure out the focus of these messages - either Alexsey doesn't know much about ki-aikido or he's trying to make a point I missed.

There are separate ki exercises during class. There are also ki tests during examinations. Ki is discussed very heavily; since it is a critical component of how we train.

My point was, what Mr. Shiohira teaches is _not_ Ki Aikido, despite his heavy past affiliation with Koichi Tohei which Craig hinted at.

kironin
08-31-2004, 04:59 PM
Aleksey is speaking of Shiohira Sensei, and I have no idea whether or not he (Shiohira Sensei) teaches using the Shin Shin Toitsu methodology...perhaps Aleksey or Craig can clarify...

RT

It's true Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido (Ki Society) has a very defined pedagogy and that is the official name of our Aikido that appears on all the certificates.

However the term "Ki Aikido" has often been used by groups not associated with the Ki Society so I don't see it as exactly equivalent. Ki Society HQ tends to always refer to "Ki Aikido" as a term "often used (or known) in the West" and treats it pretty informally. It doesn't exactly make sense in Japanese, so I tend to look at it as slang like "Gi" is for Dogi. We often use "Ki Aikido" in our advertising because those new to aikido looking at it will see aikido and those moving in to the area that are looking for us will understand what that means.

Shiohira Sensei who was Chief Instructor of the Bay Area Ki Research Institute had his reasons for leaving Ki Society but one of his senior students stayed in Ki Society and is now the Chief Instructor of Northern California Ki Society. Shiohira Sensei is of course free to train students however he wants, but his technical style definitely still feels Ki Aikido when you take ukemi from him.

The more I go around the more I tend to see these various groups as just part of a larger general lineage of Ki Aikido. Some groups have retained more and some less of the Ki Development pedagogy. For example AAA does Ki testing as part of it's Aikido kyu ranks while Shin Budo Kai stil has a distinct separate practice.

Whether there will be as much connection a couple of decades from now I can't really say, but for now when I visit, it feels like home away from home.

I forgot to mention Seidokan as another example of Ki Aikido. ;)

Erik
08-31-2004, 08:57 PM
For what it's worth on Shiohira sensei.

Other than some breathing exercises, which would qualify in my opinion, he seemed to be mostly devoid of ki stuff the couple of days I dropped by. From what I know he used to be Ki Society and now runs one of the 19 different, or thereabouts, organizations which can be found in the Bay Area.

At the risk of overgeneralizing, ok I am overgeneralizing, I'd say he was more grounded than most of the Ki Society types I've run into. Of course your mileage can and will vary.

Heck of a nice guy and very down to earth. I'd recommend him to anyone who happened to be in the area.

Tatiana
08-31-2004, 08:59 PM
Errrrr... Ok.. I think that by now, you guys must think I don't know anything about Aikido :( ... But I've got one more question.... What does AAA stand for?? blá association of Aikido???? :confused:
:D Thanks... ;)

kironin
08-31-2004, 09:16 PM
AAA = Aikido Association of America

Founded by the late Fumio Toyoda Sensei who was Chief Instructor of the Chicago Ki Society. In the 1990's expanded internationally (AAI) and affiliated with the Aikikai Foundation. Currently led by Andy Sato Sensei who is a very smooth relaxed aikidoist and good teacher and a very nice guy. He started in the Chicago Ki Society.
http://www.aaa-aikido.com/teachers/satobio.html

Jerry Miller
08-31-2004, 11:14 PM
Judge a tree by the fruit it bears, not by the man who planted it.

There are no separate "ki exercises" during class.
There are no "ki tests" during exams.
"Ki" is hardly ever mentioned during training, which is pretty much 100% focused on technique.

Two people in this thread already mentioned the "ki practice" as the key trait by which Ki Aikido dojos can be identified.
I am in AAA. There are ki tests during exams. We rarely do ki exercises during class. Ki is mentioned in passing during class. I find this interesting since the organization I was in as a youth ki was mentioned frequently during class. There were no ki exercises other than the "unbendable arm thing". There were no ki tests during exams. The standards I trained to back then were NY state aikikai. The organization from back then is now known as USAF. I do not believe that one needs to do Ki-Aikido to learn about ki. I also believe that one can learn about ki without ever realizing it. BTW I only expressing my opinion. I was mudansha back then and after a long absence still am (starting over from the very beginning). I like the fruit tree analogy though.

kironin
09-01-2004, 03:46 AM
Judge a tree by the fruit it bears, not by the man who planted it.


OK, Next time I am in San Fran let's practice ...

kironin
09-01-2004, 03:54 AM
I do not believe that one needs to do Ki-Aikido to learn about ki. I also believe that one can learn about ki without ever realizing it.


sigh ...
that is not the argument and never was.

one more time because the point seems to have been lost.

...found that, by employing a few simple principles which he developed during his teaching of others, he could speed the development of Ki awareness within students and show them how to improve the flow of Ki energy in their body. This revolutionized instruction in Aikido and is developing a group of Aikido students which start their training with relaxation and softness as a part of their "going in philosophy".

shihonage
09-01-2004, 03:56 AM
OK, Next time I am in San Fran let's practice ...

If you want to practice not for the sake of practicing Aikido, but with the intent of judging an instructor by his students, I suggest you pick someone around your own rank to practice with.
You know, to be fair and all.

kironin
09-01-2004, 04:33 AM
:confused:
okay, I am confused. It was your suggestion after all.

shihonage
09-01-2004, 04:38 AM
:confused:
okay, I am confused. It was your suggestion after all.

Maybe my analogy was unclear.
Here, let me break it down for you.

Man who planted the tree - Mr. Koichi Tohei
The tree - Mr. Shiohira
The fruit - Mr. Shiohira's technique

This analogy was made in a response to your remark about Mr. Shiohira's prior affiliations.

DaveO
09-01-2004, 06:44 AM
My point was, what Mr. Shiohira teaches is _not_ Ki Aikido, despite his heavy past affiliation with Koichi Tohei which Craig hinted at.

Whoops! Terribly sorry about that Aleksey; your post makes perfect sense once I've been properly caffienated. :hypno:
I really shouldn't answer posts before shaking hands with Juan Valdez. :rolleyes:

kironin
09-01-2004, 09:58 AM
Maybe my analogy was unclear.
Here, let me break it down for you.

Man who planted the tree - Mr. Koichi Tohei
The tree - Mr. Shiohira
The fruit - Mr. Shiohira's technique

This analogy was made in a response to your remark about Mr. Shiohira's prior affiliations.

ok, I see, my mistake, I read that as
Man who planted tree - Mr. Shiohira
The tree - (Pacific Aikido Federation)
The fruit - PAF students


Using your version,
apparently you feel the tree was just abandoned after planting and never
nurtured and watered (Shin Shin Toitsu Do)
that would seem to be where we disagree.

someone did mention what I had forgotten, that Shiohira Sensei finishes classes with several minutes of Ki breathing practice. This I have never seen in USAF classes and is very peculiar to classes at Ki Aikido dojos and in the Ki Society is emphasized as one of the most important Ki training practices you can do in or out of the dojo.
Now if you get no instruction on that maybe you could argue that you never do any Ki training in the PAF but the tree is still being nurtured by it.

stray thought on your comment on my offer to train,
As to training with senior PAF students, they would have done a lot of formal Ki training earlier in their careers, so it would not prove anything even if I was looking to prove something. If it sounded like some sort of challenge, I apologize.

Tatiana
09-03-2004, 10:07 AM
Errr... Thanks guys! Just.... Stop arguing... I`m sure we can figure this out without arguing... Not that I`ve got too much space to talk, I genrely resolve my problems by arguing.. but it`s not the right way to do things..... And being sarcastic isn`t either.... Once more, Thanks for all the info, it really helped!!!!

kironin
09-03-2004, 10:19 AM
arguing ???

for the internet this is a pretty friendly discussion :D

Tatiana
09-03-2004, 04:26 PM
CRAIG!!!! LOL! ok... There's no saveing you guys! LOL! THo I suppose that this discution is light compared to that other thread in the 'Genral' folder... "Aikido is weak" I kinda boiled up... :straightf That guy... What's his name??? Any way.. He sucks :crazy: I mean.. excusing the - light- wording... Errrr... Ok, excusing my French, LOL!

shihonage
09-03-2004, 04:32 PM
I think Craig's still upset by that comment I made in the thread (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6081) about "serious students" :)

kironin
09-03-2004, 06:37 PM
I had forgotten about it till now. evileyes


but I figure you have spent too much time watching South Park.


still it's better than most British humor.
;)

shihonage
09-03-2004, 07:12 PM
I had forgotten about it till now. evileyes


but I figure you have spent too much time watching South Park.


still it's better than most British humor.
;)

No, actually I can't stand South Park.
I think it's aimed at much younger (not to mention developmentally challenged) demographic.

Tatiana
09-04-2004, 04:51 AM
well, they say that taste is like a backside... Each has his own, don't critisize... :D I think I'm starting to sound like my mother... LOL! And you too, Aleksey... LOL! She can't even stand the Simpsons... Imagine if I sugested South Park! The house would explode... :D LOL! Any way.... What comment is this??? I think I'll go and check it out... Stick my nose where it doesn't belong... LOL!

Tatiana
09-04-2004, 05:03 AM
And on the subject of British/American humor... British Humor is vry dry.... But American humor... The guy's kinda like gotta tell you "Well... The jokes over now... You can laugh..." :D No offense to the British or American... But I kinda like just fit in wherever I am, so I'll get used to the jokes, and laugh along... :p