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John Boswell
10-23-2003, 02:05 PM
In AAA, at 5th kyu, we learn the technique " Yokomenuchi Sokumen Iriminage ."

Now, I can do it. Not well, but I remember it. And odds are pretty good that someone at the time told me what Sokumen meant. However... I can't remember!!

:blush:

So... could someone please define Sokumen for me? Trying to figure a few things out and clear up some misunderstandings.

Also, if anyone knows of an on-line Japanese dictionary/translator type site, that would be most appreciated!

DOMO ARIGATO !!

:D

shihonage
10-23-2003, 02:12 PM
"sokumen iriminage" probably refers to a "direct" iriminage where you step in from the side while scooping up opponent under chin (either regular way or atemi with a palm of your hand).

But my memory could also be incorrect.

"Aikido Shugyo" book by Gozo Shioda, now available in English translation, has a good example of use of sokumen iriminage in it.

akiy
10-23-2003, 03:14 PM
So... could someone please define Sokumen for me?
"Soku" ( 側 ) basically means "side" (as in the side of a house). "Men" ( 面 ) basically means "face" or "surface." "Sokumen" usually then refers to a technique which affects the side of the face.

Here's one series of photographs of sokumen iriminage:

http://www.yoshinkai.org/waza/iriminage/mar99_photos.htm

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

John Boswell
10-23-2003, 03:31 PM
Good stuff! Thank you both... very helpful! :)

siwilson
10-23-2003, 05:27 PM
"Sokumen - Irimi - Nage"

=

"Side Approach - Entering - Throw"

Osu!

Kensho Furuya
10-27-2003, 11:15 AM
Hi! Sokumen usually means "side" in the sense of being in tangent to or "connected" to something else. It could refer to an attack to the side or attacking your side at an angle, as opposed to not directly on or a frontal attack. From the tori or nage point of view, it could mean to move in from the side or being in a position at your opponent's aside.

It is very similar in meaning to yokomen as in yokomen-uchi so using both terms together is almost redundant. Yokomen as the nuance of "horizontal" or "lateral." - As in "yoko" meaning horizontal or "tate" meaning vertical.

Both of these terms can be used interchangeably but not often together.

By custom and usage, if I said to attack to the side of the head, I most likely would say to "yokomen-uchi" him. If I move into the opponent's side, I would most usually say move in to his sokumen.

Hope this helps. . . . . To non-Japanese speaking people, I think the Japanese language may appear to be very vague for some reason, but in actuality, Japanese is very specific and exacting in such terms. As an example, we say, "water," "ice water," or "hot water" in English. In Japanese, each has its own specific term which do not sound similar at all. As "ice water" may be "koori," hot water is "o-yuu," but hot water for drinking is "o-sayu." Just "water" is "mizu," unless you use the Chinese pronounciation of "sui" which is similar to the Chinese word. Gads, I hope I didn't confuse you!

John Boswell
10-27-2003, 03:06 PM
Thanks again, everyone. And no, Sensei... you did not cofuse me any further.

In truth, over the last several days, its been becoming more apperant to me just how much I did not understand as far as the direction of everything goes with iriminage and others.

It was a great puzzle to me, despite seeing things over and over again, how a person would land in one location despite the Nage facing another. Its hard to explain. One MAJOR factor that threw me off was that I was always trying to work off of right angles - 90 degrees.

Looking back, I guess I got that idea from Shihonage - 4 direction cut. I took that a little to literally. BUT... thankfully, a lot of more thoughts and ideas, things I should have known imho, are now just all falling *click*click*click* right into place and I see and understand so much more.

Hopefully this will help my technique along. Better yet... maybe it will help my ukemi! ;)

Hanna B
10-29-2003, 07:18 PM
I never quite understood if sokumen iriminage and kokyoho are slightly different, of if they are different names on one technique.

Aikilove
10-30-2003, 02:09 AM
I think kokyo-ho are refered to (when it is) as basic (done regularely kind of) technique as oppose to kokyo(nage) and versions of iriminage (like sokumen). e.g. morotedori kokyoho and suwariwaza kokyoho, two basic techniques done in almost every class.

Oooor... I realy don't know what I'm talking about. ;)

Don_Modesto
10-30-2003, 09:13 AM
I never quite understood if sokumen iriminage and kokyoho are slightly different, of if they are different names on one technique.
I think you mean KOKYU "NAGE" here and not "KOKYU HO".

My take is that KOKYU NAGE is a generic term for techniques depending very much on hip work. There's an elbow arm bar throw which I've also seen called KOKYU NAGE, e.g.

SOKUMEN IRIMI NAGE is one organizations term for one version of KOKYU NAGE. YMMV.

Kensho Furuya
10-30-2003, 09:24 AM
May I ask what is "YMMV?" I am new to all of this cyvber-talk and always have to ask my students. It is only very recently, I found out about IMHO and OTOT and others. Haha! Sorry, but I don't know anything beyond RSVP. . . . . Thank you.

Don_Modesto
10-30-2003, 09:51 AM
May I ask what is "YMMV?" I am new to all of this cyvber-talk and always have to ask my students.
YMMV-your mileage may vary

See http://www.gaarde.org/acronyms/ for more.

Leslie Parks
10-30-2003, 12:02 PM
Dear John,

I'm also an AAA member at Tenshinkan and can affirm that Jun, Si, & Furuya Sensei's definitions are closest...from "our" perspective. The video footage is, in very general terms, how it is interpreted in AAA and may help you understand the side of the head, side entering aspect.

Please note, however, that Toyoda Shihan, typically did not do this technique turning the body in the direction of the throw (as it shows in the photos), but instead, maintaining more of a perpendicular position relative to uke, with the power generating from the total body movement of stepping through after uke has been unbalanced.

As to the perpendicular angle, when Toyoda Sensei was throwing you in a teaching context, he'd get you bent backwards, body barely clinging to balance, both feet on the mat (barely), THEN throw you, moving through (hence side entry) your body. Of course, when he was throwing for full demonstration, you very much wanted to "harmonize with his energy" so you'd be getting your head out of the way and moving your body, which would necessitate a change in balance and then he'd pretty much launch you.

It was awesome to experience...

...oh, and uke does yoko ukemi (side break fall) 'cause if he decided to throw straight down, that's all you had time for.

Hope this helps,

Leslie Parks-Casey

Greg Jennings
10-30-2003, 12:57 PM
We practice tai no henko and morotedori kokyu ho at the start of every class.

For us, there are some little technical differences between sokumen iriminage and kokyu ho.

Ignoring the difference in feeling between kokyu ho having an "exercise" feel and sokumen iriminage being practiced as a technique, the two just feel different.

E.g., I think it would feel awkward to get from the entry position of kokyu ho to the middle position of sokumen irimnage.

Another example would be that we keep our face turned away from uke at the finish of kokyu ho, but I don't recall doing that for sokumen iriminage.

Regards,

Aikilove
10-31-2003, 02:18 AM
I think you mean KOKYU "NAGE" here and not "KOKYU HO".
No I'm quite sure she ment kokyoho. Kokyoho is the name of at least two exercises (rather then techniques I guess), morotedori kokyoho and suwariwaza kokyoho (kokyo dosa in some places), done in most dojos (in Sweden) every class, the first one of which looks like (or is) sokumen iriminage done from morotedori. Perhaps it is a subgroup of the group of techniques called kokyonage, but that version of irimimovement and throwing with opposit hand as normally done in iriminage is generally refered to as kokyoho and not sokumen irimi (in Sweden). FWIW if a throw doesn't have a formal name (like kotegaeshi) it's generally called kokyonage were I come from. ;)

Hanna B
11-02-2003, 12:15 PM
I think you mean KOKYU "NAGE" here and not "KOKYU HO".
In my vocabulary, no.
My take is that KOKYU NAGE is a generic term for techniques depending very much on hip work. There's an elbow arm bar throw which I've also seen called KOKYU NAGE, e.g.In my vocabulary, all kokyo nage ends up with uke doing a forward roll. Kokyo ho/sokumen iriminage makes uke fall/roll backwards. The elbow bar you are talking about might be what I call udekimenage. Sumi otoshi is another of these kokyonage, who some people has a specific name for while others just say kokyo nage.
SOKUMEN IRIMI NAGE is one organizations term for one version of KOKYU NAGE. YMMV.I do not say that you are wrong! Aikido vocabulary can be quite different in different schools. At secont thought, it seems that in my surroundings people refer to the technique done the way Endo sensei does it 'kokyo ho' and the way Christian Tissier does it 'sokumen irimi nage'. I think the reason simply is that these teachers use different names of this technique.

I used to be convinced that 'sokumen iriminage' was a newer term, and 'kokyo ho' the original. I got very sourprised when I browsed through one of o-sensei's books, seeing the techninque named 'sokumen iriminage'.

Hanna B
11-02-2003, 12:19 PM
Jakob, it seems to me that when you say "Aikido in Sweden", you actually mean "Iwama style aikido". You Iwama guys make up one third or one fourth of us, so I would not put an "=" between these two terms. :)

Aikilove
11-02-2003, 07:40 PM
Jakob, it seems to me that when you say "Aikido in Sweden", you actually mean "Iwama style aikido". You Iwama guys make up one third or one fourth of us, so I would not put an "=" between these two terms. :)Relax Hanna, I'm not and if you re-read my post you'll see I didn't. Most of my experience outside of our dojowalls has been in with teachers that were not associated with Iwama, and it still has been my experience as I wrote it that morotedori kokyoho is the starter and suwariwaza kokyoho is the closer. But I havn't been in all places around in

Sweden, to state the obvious, so I can't speek for all of us, but I do think that you were refering to kokyoho and not kokyonage. Were I wrong?

akiy
11-02-2003, 08:47 PM
Just for clarification, unless people are using totally different terminology than one with which I am conversant, the term is spelled (and pronounced) "kokyu," not "kokyo."

-- Jun

Hanna B
11-03-2003, 02:04 AM
Jun, my mistake.

Jakob, the language stuff I think is clear between us. As far as kokyu nage/kokyu ho goes, we have the same terminology.

BTW, regarding the Iwama stuff I hope you noticed the smiley? Just wanted to point out that from what I have seen of aikido in our country, morotedori (=katate ryotedori) kokyuho is not at all done in every class and when done, it is not necessarily the starter. Suwari kokyuho is a pretty common dessert, though, but in my world very far from every class.

You know, to me aikido in our country is caracterized by diversity. Thus, typical Swedish aikido can not be found. What is done in almost all dojos in Sweden is likely to be done in most aikido dojos in the world so I found your statement a bit puzzling.

But this was a bit off topic.

Greg Jennings
11-03-2003, 07:18 AM
Jun can give the straight skinny on this, but I wanted to make clear one point that I glossed over in my other post....

I don't know the literal Japanese definitions, but to me "Ho", "Dosa" and "Undo" all have a sort of "exercise" or "drill" connotation to them.

Regards,

Don_Modesto
11-03-2003, 09:16 AM
Jun can give the straight skinny on this....but to me "Ho", "Dosa" and "Undo" all have a sort of "exercise" or "drill" connotation to them.
Mmm! Would like to hear these differentiated.

I'd guess

"HO" has a resonance with "direction, way, method".

"DOSA"...again "DO", "way"? "SA"?

"UNDO"...something more pedestrian, like exercize in P.E.

Aikilove
11-03-2003, 09:27 AM
Jun, my mistake.

Jakob, the language stuff I think is clear between us. As far as kokyu nage/kokyu ho goes, we have the same terminology.

BTW, regarding the Iwama stuff I hope you noticed the smiley? Just wanted to point out that from what I have seen of aikido in our country, morotedori (=katate ryotedori) kokyuho is not at all done in every class and when done, it is not necessarily the starter. Suwari kokyuho is a pretty common dessert, though, but in my world very far from every class.

You know, to me aikido in our country is caracterized by diversity. Thus, typical Swedish aikido can not be found. What is done in almost all dojos in Sweden is likely to be done in most aikido dojos in the world so I found your statement a bit puzzling.

But this was a bit off topic.
Ok agreed...

cguzik
11-03-2003, 01:02 PM
Thread I started on e-budo last year on this topic:

Sokumen Irimi or Kokyu? (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12546)

Janet Rosen
11-03-2003, 05:30 PM
The dojo I used to train at, USAF-ER, called it very clearly and specifically kokyunage. The dojo I currently train at...hmmm...depends who is teaching (smile)...yes, sokumen iriminage, at least some of the time.