Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Language

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-23-2003, 02:05 PM   #1
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Freaky! Sokumen means... ?

In AAA, at 5th kyu, we learn the technique " Yokomenuchi Sokumen Iriminage ."

Now, I can do it. Not well, but I remember it. And odds are pretty good that someone at the time told me what Sokumen meant. However... I can't remember!!



So... could someone please define Sokumen for me? Trying to figure a few things out and clear up some misunderstandings.

Also, if anyone knows of an on-line Japanese dictionary/translator type site, that would be most appreciated!

DOMO ARIGATO !!


  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2003, 02:12 PM   #2
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
Offline
"sokumen iriminage" probably refers to a "direct" iriminage where you step in from the side while scooping up opponent under chin (either regular way or atemi with a palm of your hand).

But my memory could also be incorrect.

"Aikido Shugyo" book by Gozo Shioda, now available in English translation, has a good example of use of sokumen iriminage in it.

Last edited by shihonage : 10-23-2003 at 02:15 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2003, 03:14 PM   #3
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Re: Sokumen means... ?

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
So... could someone please define Sokumen for me?
"Soku" ( 側 ) basically means "side" (as in the side of a house). "Men" ( 面 ) basically means "face" or "surface." "Sokumen" usually then refers to a technique which affects the side of the face.

Here's one series of photographs of sokumen iriminage:

http://www.yoshinkai.org/waza/irimin...r99_photos.htm

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2003, 03:31 PM   #4
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Good stuff! Thank you both... very helpful!

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2003, 05:27 PM   #5
siwilson
Dojo: Kenshinkai Yoshinkan Aikido
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 450
England
Offline
"Sokumen - Irimi - Nage"

=

"Side Approach - Entering - Throw"

Osu!

Osu!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2003, 11:15 AM   #6
Kensho Furuya
Dojo: Aikido Center of Los Angeles
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 341
Offline
Hi! Sokumen usually means "side" in the sense of being in tangent to or "connected" to something else. It could refer to an attack to the side or attacking your side at an angle, as opposed to not directly on or a frontal attack. From the tori or nage point of view, it could mean to move in from the side or being in a position at your opponent's aside.

It is very similar in meaning to yokomen as in yokomen-uchi so using both terms together is almost redundant. Yokomen as the nuance of "horizontal" or "lateral." - As in "yoko" meaning horizontal or "tate" meaning vertical.

Both of these terms can be used interchangeably but not often together.

By custom and usage, if I said to attack to the side of the head, I most likely would say to "yokomen-uchi" him. If I move into the opponent's side, I would most usually say move in to his sokumen.

Hope this helps. . . . . To non-Japanese speaking people, I think the Japanese language may appear to be very vague for some reason, but in actuality, Japanese is very specific and exacting in such terms. As an example, we say, "water," "ice water," or "hot water" in English. In Japanese, each has its own specific term which do not sound similar at all. As "ice water" may be "koori," hot water is "o-yuu," but hot water for drinking is "o-sayu." Just "water" is "mizu," unless you use the Chinese pronounciation of "sui" which is similar to the Chinese word. Gads, I hope I didn't confuse you!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2003, 03:06 PM   #7
John Boswell
 
John Boswell's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Thanks again, everyone. And no, Sensei... you did not cofuse me any further.

In truth, over the last several days, its been becoming more apperant to me just how much I did not understand as far as the direction of everything goes with iriminage and others.

It was a great puzzle to me, despite seeing things over and over again, how a person would land in one location despite the Nage facing another. Its hard to explain. One MAJOR factor that threw me off was that I was always trying to work off of right angles - 90 degrees.

Looking back, I guess I got that idea from Shihonage - 4 direction cut. I took that a little to literally. BUT... thankfully, a lot of more thoughts and ideas, things I should have known imho, are now just all falling *click*click*click* right into place and I see and understand so much more.

Hopefully this will help my technique along. Better yet... maybe it will help my ukemi!

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2003, 07:18 PM   #8
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
I never quite understood if sokumen iriminage and kokyoho are slightly different, of if they are different names on one technique.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2003, 02:09 AM   #9
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
I think kokyo-ho are refered to (when it is) as basic (done regularely kind of) technique as oppose to kokyo(nage) and versions of iriminage (like sokumen). e.g. morotedori kokyoho and suwariwaza kokyoho, two basic techniques done in almost every class.

Oooor... I realy don't know what I'm talking about.

Last edited by Aikilove : 10-30-2003 at 02:12 AM.

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2003, 09:13 AM   #10
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Quote:
Hanna Björk (Hanna B) wrote:
I never quite understood if sokumen iriminage and kokyoho are slightly different, of if they are different names on one technique.
I think you mean KOKYU "NAGE" here and not "KOKYU HO".

My take is that KOKYU NAGE is a generic term for techniques depending very much on hip work. There's an elbow arm bar throw which I've also seen called KOKYU NAGE, e.g.

SOKUMEN IRIMI NAGE is one organizations term for one version of KOKYU NAGE. YMMV.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2003, 09:24 AM   #11
Kensho Furuya
Dojo: Aikido Center of Los Angeles
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 341
Offline
May I ask what is "YMMV?" I am new to all of this cyvber-talk and always have to ask my students. It is only very recently, I found out about IMHO and OTOT and others. Haha! Sorry, but I don't know anything beyond RSVP. . . . . Thank you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2003, 09:51 AM   #12
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Quote:
Kensho Furuya wrote:
May I ask what is "YMMV?" I am new to all of this cyvber-talk and always have to ask my students.
YMMV-your mileage may vary

See http://www.gaarde.org/acronyms/ for more.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2003, 12:02 PM   #13
Leslie Parks
Dojo: Tenshinkan Dojo
Location: Chicago
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 41
Offline
Dear John,

I'm also an AAA member at Tenshinkan and can affirm that Jun, Si, & Furuya Sensei's definitions are closest...from "our" perspective. The video footage is, in very general terms, how it is interpreted in AAA and may help you understand the side of the head, side entering aspect.

Please note, however, that Toyoda Shihan, typically did not do this technique turning the body in the direction of the throw (as it shows in the photos), but instead, maintaining more of a perpendicular position relative to uke, with the power generating from the total body movement of stepping through after uke has been unbalanced.

As to the perpendicular angle, when Toyoda Sensei was throwing you in a teaching context, he'd get you bent backwards, body barely clinging to balance, both feet on the mat (barely), THEN throw you, moving through (hence side entry) your body. Of course, when he was throwing for full demonstration, you very much wanted to "harmonize with his energy" so you'd be getting your head out of the way and moving your body, which would necessitate a change in balance and then he'd pretty much launch you.

It was awesome to experience...

...oh, and uke does yoko ukemi (side break fall) 'cause if he decided to throw straight down, that's all you had time for.

Hope this helps,

Leslie Parks-Casey
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2003, 12:57 PM   #14
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,091
United_States
Offline
We practice tai no henko and morotedori kokyu ho at the start of every class.

For us, there are some little technical differences between sokumen iriminage and kokyu ho.

Ignoring the difference in feeling between kokyu ho having an "exercise" feel and sokumen iriminage being practiced as a technique, the two just feel different.

E.g., I think it would feel awkward to get from the entry position of kokyu ho to the middle position of sokumen irimnage.

Another example would be that we keep our face turned away from uke at the finish of kokyu ho, but I don't recall doing that for sokumen iriminage.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2003, 02:18 AM   #15
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
I think you mean KOKYU "NAGE" here and not "KOKYU HO".
No I'm quite sure she ment kokyoho. Kokyoho is the name of at least two exercises (rather then techniques I guess), morotedori kokyoho and suwariwaza kokyoho (kokyo dosa in some places), done in most dojos (in Sweden) every class, the first one of which looks like (or is) sokumen iriminage done from morotedori. Perhaps it is a subgroup of the group of techniques called kokyonage, but that version of irimimovement and throwing with opposit hand as normally done in iriminage is generally refered to as kokyoho and not sokumen irimi (in Sweden). FWIW if a throw doesn't have a formal name (like kotegaeshi) it's generally called kokyonage were I come from.

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2003, 12:15 PM   #16
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
Quote:
Don J. Modesto (Don_Modesto) wrote:
I think you mean KOKYU "NAGE" here and not "KOKYU HO".
In my vocabulary, no.
Quote:
My take is that KOKYU NAGE is a generic term for techniques depending very much on hip work. There's an elbow arm bar throw which I've also seen called KOKYU NAGE, e.g.
In my vocabulary, all kokyo nage ends up with uke doing a forward roll. Kokyo ho/sokumen iriminage makes uke fall/roll backwards. The elbow bar you are talking about might be what I call udekimenage. Sumi otoshi is another of these kokyonage, who some people has a specific name for while others just say kokyo nage.
Quote:
SOKUMEN IRIMI NAGE is one organizations term for one version of KOKYU NAGE. YMMV.
I do not say that you are wrong! Aikido vocabulary can be quite different in different schools. At secont thought, it seems that in my surroundings people refer to the technique done the way Endo sensei does it 'kokyo ho' and the way Christian Tissier does it 'sokumen irimi nage'. I think the reason simply is that these teachers use different names of this technique.

I used to be convinced that 'sokumen iriminage' was a newer term, and 'kokyo ho' the original. I got very sourprised when I browsed through one of o-sensei's books, seeing the techninque named 'sokumen iriminage'.

Last edited by Hanna B : 11-02-2003 at 12:20 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2003, 12:19 PM   #17
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
Jakob, it seems to me that when you say "Aikido in Sweden", you actually mean "Iwama style aikido". You Iwama guys make up one third or one fourth of us, so I would not put an "=" between these two terms.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2003, 07:40 PM   #18
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Quote:
Hanna Björk (Hanna B) wrote:
Jakob, it seems to me that when you say "Aikido in Sweden", you actually mean "Iwama style aikido". You Iwama guys make up one third or one fourth of us, so I would not put an "=" between these two terms.
Relax Hanna, I'm not and if you re-read my post you'll see I didn't. Most of my experience outside of our dojowalls has been in with teachers that were not associated with Iwama, and it still has been my experience as I wrote it that morotedori kokyoho is the starter and suwariwaza kokyoho is the closer. But I havn't been in all places around in

Sweden, to state the obvious, so I can't speek for all of us, but I do think that you were refering to kokyoho and not kokyonage. Were I wrong?

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2003, 08:47 PM   #19
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,843
Offline
Just for clarification, unless people are using totally different terminology than one with which I am conversant, the term is spelled (and pronounced) "kokyu," not "kokyo."

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 02:04 AM   #20
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
Jun, my mistake.

Jakob, the language stuff I think is clear between us. As far as kokyu nage/kokyu ho goes, we have the same terminology.

BTW, regarding the Iwama stuff I hope you noticed the smiley? Just wanted to point out that from what I have seen of aikido in our country, morotedori (=katate ryotedori) kokyuho is not at all done in every class and when done, it is not necessarily the starter. Suwari kokyuho is a pretty common dessert, though, but in my world very far from every class.

You know, to me aikido in our country is caracterized by diversity. Thus, typical Swedish aikido can not be found. What is done in almost all dojos in Sweden is likely to be done in most aikido dojos in the world so I found your statement a bit puzzling.

But this was a bit off topic.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 07:18 AM   #21
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,091
United_States
Offline
Jun can give the straight skinny on this, but I wanted to make clear one point that I glossed over in my other post....

I don't know the literal Japanese definitions, but to me "Ho", "Dosa" and "Undo" all have a sort of "exercise" or "drill" connotation to them.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 09:16 AM   #22
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
Jun can give the straight skinny on this....but to me "Ho", "Dosa" and "Undo" all have a sort of "exercise" or "drill" connotation to them.
Mmm! Would like to hear these differentiated.

I'd guess

"HO" has a resonance with "direction, way, method".

"DOSA"...again "DO", "way"? "SA"?

"UNDO"...something more pedestrian, like exercize in P.E.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 09:27 AM   #23
Aikilove
Dojo: Lunds Aikidoklubb
Location: Lund, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 272
Sweden
Offline
Quote:
Hanna Björk (Hanna B) wrote:
Jun, my mistake.

Jakob, the language stuff I think is clear between us. As far as kokyu nage/kokyu ho goes, we have the same terminology.

BTW, regarding the Iwama stuff I hope you noticed the smiley? Just wanted to point out that from what I have seen of aikido in our country, morotedori (=katate ryotedori) kokyuho is not at all done in every class and when done, it is not necessarily the starter. Suwari kokyuho is a pretty common dessert, though, but in my world very far from every class.

You know, to me aikido in our country is caracterized by diversity. Thus, typical Swedish aikido can not be found. What is done in almost all dojos in Sweden is likely to be done in most aikido dojos in the world so I found your statement a bit puzzling.

But this was a bit off topic.
Ok agreed...

Jakob Blomquist
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 01:02 PM   #24
cguzik
Location: Tulsa, OK
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 166
Offline
Thread I started on e-budo last year on this topic:

Sokumen Irimi or Kokyu?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2003, 05:30 PM   #25
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,931
Offline
The dojo I used to train at, USAF-ER, called it very clearly and specifically kokyunage. The dojo I currently train at...hmmm...depends who is teaching (smile)...yes, sokumen iriminage, at least some of the time.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
quickness & accuracy Pdella General 72 08-27-2005 02:38 PM
Means to an end......? Kensai General 7 06-28-2003 09:57 PM
What "kajo" means? andrea anzalone Language 18 09-06-2001 06:32 AM
What "waza" means? andrea anzalone Language 7 09-04-2001 06:02 AM
what "kyo" means? andrea anzalone Language 2 08-16-2001 06:35 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:23 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate