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Peter Klein
05-01-2003, 02:54 PM
yeah thats my question :D

Bronson
05-01-2003, 03:13 PM
I hear there is a dojo in Cologne called something like; Aikido Kreis Koeln. I bet what they are doing is exactly what you're looking for :D

Bronson

Peter Klein
05-01-2003, 03:16 PM
hehe i am just interested i am happy where I am.

Ron Tisdale
05-01-2003, 03:25 PM
Why not do a search on this site, the aikido journal site and e-budo for the extant discussions on this topic. If there is insufficient data there, try rec.martial-arts.

Ron :>

Dave Miller
05-01-2003, 03:28 PM
It seems like my sensei told us sometime that most aikidokas who get into confrontations are yonkyu and below. Usually they resolve the situation by simple kuzushi.

At any rate, it seems to me that the skill of the aikidoka would have more to do with effectiveness than the style. I pity the fool who would have dared to mess with O'seisei in his later days.

:)

Hanna B
05-01-2003, 04:06 PM
I very much doubt that this question can be answered. The "harder" aikido styles will claim that they are more "streeet effective". Others will disagree.

So either you get a thread with 200+ posts where people start calling each other ugly names in the end. Or people will be reluctant to touch the subject because they have been there and done that, in which case your thread will not take you too far.

Jeff R.
05-01-2003, 08:02 PM
I've found that it's not necessarily the Aikido that is street effective, but the principles of Aikido. The techniques we train with are typically for traditional strikes. Now adapt the principles to retracting jabs, uppercuts, and multiple punches/kicks. I've been training with a fabulous street-effective system, tried and tested in full contact, and it's still Aikido, still leaves the attacker an option, and doesn't have to be violent at all.

Col.Clink
05-01-2003, 08:10 PM
all styles would be effective, it's up to the individual to find out how, in one way or another, before that happens I guess.

PeterR
05-01-2003, 08:16 PM
Don't quite agree with that. An individual will gravitate toward the style and more importantly the training methodology that suits them. Some styles/training methodologies are more effective than others of producing fighters. If learning to be effective on the street is your primary concern then there are dojos to be avoided.
all styles would be effective, it's up to the individual to find out how, in one way or another, before that happens I guess.

Kevin Wilbanks
05-01-2003, 09:05 PM
It depends on which street you're talking about.

Here in the westside suburbs, where I live, I'd say all Aikido is equally effective... so long as you carry stick of some sort, as the only attackers you are likely to encounter are stray dogs.

Up on the north side of Jacksonville, depending upon what kind of attention you attract, I wouldn't count on any style of Aikido to help you. Your best bet there is a .45 or .357 magnum and a cell phone with 911 on voice dial.

PeterR
05-01-2003, 09:17 PM
It depends on which street you're talking about.
Laughs - just last week I was told the reason why Tomiki's stock went up in Kobayashi's eyes. Something to do with a six month hospitalization after trying to pick up the wrong women in Italy. Strangely enough the Judo people went to Tomiki for much the same reason - although to my eyes the Goshin Jutsu looks a little stilted.

I must say that when people talk about street effective what they really mean is dojo training that will give them the feeling of dominance. Until you do so it's all an illusion but confidence is the key. Without the latter you are lost. If it is important to you and you are not getting that confidence then you are in the wrong dojo.

Col.Clink
05-01-2003, 10:40 PM
Don't quite agree with that. An individual will gravitate toward the style and more importantly the training methodology that suits them. Some styles/training methodologies are more effective than others of producing fighters. If learning to be effective on the street is your primary concern then there are dojos to be avoided.
Hi Peter,

I have to say that I think all styles can be effective if applied in street combat, you just have to know what will work where, or be taught it. Of course there are schools that focus more on "street" Aikido, wether they are more effective I cannot say as I have never attended that many different schools, but I have been in many a confrontation (unfortunately) to know how to apply my style and still be effective. I think if someone's main concern is street defence, then a course or two in street combat would be a whole lot better than spending time on Aikido, but again, I come back to the individual and what they want out of it. I know I started Aikido to learn how to stop fighting.

If you would please be so kind as to answer me the following I would appreciate it:

My question(s) is(are), what dojo's should be avoided, and how does someone not in the know, know?

Cheers Peter

Rob

:ai: :ki:

acot
05-01-2003, 10:56 PM
Which schools teach the best street diplomacy?

Ryan

PeterR
05-01-2003, 11:07 PM
Of course there are schools that focus more on "street" Aikido, wether they are more effective I cannot say as I have never attended that many different schools ....My contention is that these schools are not necessarily that effective either, same with many PK schools, it really boils down to how does a particular school/martial art approach the randomness and stress levels associated with actually fighting. So then ...
My question(s) is(are), what dojo's should be avoided, and how does someone not in the know, know?
becomes the million dollar question of which I don't have the answer to. Know what you want and watch classes. Look at the students and not only the sensei. Find out what they are after from their training and how they approach their goals. Gut feeling is often your best indicator.

Just to be clear - I don't see the street as my primary reason for doing Aikido. My comments were more along the lines that its not the martial artist its the individual is a bit of a canard. It's clear certain types of individuals will gravitate to certain types of training.

PeterR
05-01-2003, 11:08 PM
Which schools teach the best street diplomacy?
Ala Teddy Rossevelt?

Col.Clink
05-01-2003, 11:30 PM
Just to be clear - I don't see the street as my primary reason for doing Aikido. My comments were more along the lines that its not the martial artist its the individual is a bit of a canard. It's clear certain types of individuals will gravitate to certain types of training.
Ahhh..thanks Peter for your thoughts. I would agree that an individual will defend themselves in the way they are trained, but I'll also expand on that by saying if they have any idea/experience in a combat situation, then their training no matter what style, will take on a whole different characteristic than what they have learned. I hate to say it, but it comes back to the individual, and their experience or lack of it. Although I do also agree with what you are saying (if I can agree but disagree at the same time that is):freaky: But hey, I've still got a long way to go.

Cheers

Rob

:ai: :ki:

Peter Klein
05-02-2003, 05:22 AM
there is hardly a good school that teaches combat effective aikido in cologne. Is ki-aikido a bit street orientated?

PeterR
05-02-2003, 05:28 AM
As a general rule its more the opposite extreme although I am sure there are exceptions.
there is hardly a good school that teaches combat effective aikido in cologne. Is ki-aikido a bit street orientated?

Col.Clink
05-02-2003, 06:50 AM
there is hardly a good school that teaches combat effective aikido in cologne. Is ki-aikido a bit street orientated?
Ki-Aikido? I thought all schools taught Ki-Aikido, or at least have some ki involved;)

Ki Society can be what ever you want it to be. We most likely train on the softer side compared to others,( I really do not know as I have not seen/partaken in Yoshinkan personally) but like all schools, depends on the instructors.

cheers

Rob

:do:

ian
05-02-2003, 07:30 AM
I think different situations call for different approaches. Situations are always very different, and ability to deal appropriately is the key.

I really hate all this soft vs hard. To me the reason we use aiki (blending) is to gain advantage over the person. There is a big difference between being soft and real blending; the former doesn't work.

I also think for real situations adaptability is the key; especially if someone knows you do aikido are are blending sometimes the best technique is very direct.

The best style? In my mind get a good solid foundation in technique and then get whatever is useful out of each instructor. Also important is to realise what we are similating in our own dojo (and I think this varies from dojo to dojo). For example, when I swim I use a kick-board to build up leg strength; however if I swam normally with my body like that I would be pittiful. In aikido we should do various forms; static, moving, blending, atemis etc - the key to practical street defence is knowing what we are trying to obtain from the exercise; and they are just exercises!

Ian

mike lee
05-02-2003, 07:31 AM
there is hardly a good school that teaches combat effective aikido in cologne.

If their aikido is not effective, then they're not teaching aikido.

If I were in such a situation, I would look for the best martial-arts instructor in your area, regardless of style.

My personal preference is for judo, for a number of reasons. But, because it's an Olympic sport, it seems to have wide-spread popularity and a number of good teachers. Also, it's relatively easy to transition back into aikido at a later time. The ukemi is very similar.

Most of the best aikidoists I've run into over the years, began training in judo.

Personally, I love judo techniques. They're usually very physical and easy to learn, understand and apply to street situations. Simple, yet effective.

It seems to me that learning judo and then transitioning to aikido is a natural, logical step.

ian
05-02-2003, 07:42 AM
P.S. I would definately say the individual is more important than the martial art because:

1. indivduals have different natural levels of ability

2. individuals have different levels of commitment

3. There are very many techniques from a range of martial arts that can work effectively if trained sincerely and repeatedly (in fact I know one great chinese martial artist who learnt only one technique!)

4. individuals have different objectives in their martial arts

5. what people see in one single technique depends on previous experience.

To me the martial art is a set of techniques and practise regime headed by a sensei who inspires you in some way.

Maybe in order of importance for training in street effectiveness I would say:

1. understanding of what real fights are like

2. objective (has to be directed towards effectiveness)

3. consistent training

4. physical ability

5. technique (I think the weakest of points 4 and 5 will be what lets you down).

Ian

Hanna B
05-02-2003, 07:44 AM
If their aikido is not effective, then they're not teaching aikido.Mike - when you were a beginner, could you tell effective aikido from poor aikido?

mike lee
05-02-2003, 08:10 AM
Mike - when you were a beginner, could you tell effective aikido from poor aikido?

Absolutely. I grew up fighting on the streets of Chicago. Usefullness was always first and foremost in my mind. Before I came to aikido, I learned some judo, karate and kung fu. All were taught to me in a practical, effective manner, with the immediate purpose of the techniques being applied ASAP.

My first teacher in aikido had also lived in Chicago, where he was a semi-professional boxer. He also trained in the same style of karate as me. His approach to and application of aikido was "no nonsense." We were all acutely aware of the damage that could be done by a trained striker, a knife, or a gun. We had all seen our share of street violence.

My first Japanese teacher was a pilot for the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II. There wasn't much nonsense about him either.

When I entered aikido class, I trained for battle from day one. I respect anyone else that has the same desire. If their teacher doesn't fill the bill, they can either continue wasting their time, or find someone who is with the program.

Personally, I don't have much time for nonsense.

Hanna B
05-02-2003, 10:35 AM
Mike, do you mean that most aikido is effective (except for som bad teachers), or that smaller portions of the aikido world is? If number two, than you are boldly stating that a lot of aikido people spend their time doing nonsense. By all, means, if it makes you happy...

I must say I envy your ability to spot quality. I come to think of an old interview with Christian Tissier, when he talks about first time he arrived to Hombu.

The next day, I went to 6:30 am class and saw Doshu for the first time. He was doing iriminage, and I thought, "This guy isn't very good." He wasn't doing iriminage the way I was used to seeing it. That's a big problem in Aikido. When you don't see what you are used to seeing, you think it's no good. I thought that Doshu's movement was strange for four or five months, and then, of course, the practice changed my mind. http://www.aiki.com/sneak/tissier.html

To me, this sounds more like most of us function.

Can of worms. Here we go...

Adam Garrison
05-02-2003, 11:54 AM
Mike,

Absolutely!!! I grew up in a few rough neighborhoods and watched as, time after time, people with karate, TKD, Kapkido, ju-jutsu training get their arses handed to them by tough-as-nails kids with street fighting experience. Having, unfortunately, had to defend myself from some of these scrappers, I feel like I developed a marginal ability to judge what would and would not be effective technique "on the street". There are certainly instances where you may not understand the mechanics of a throw or pin when you are a beginner, but you still ended up on the ground against your will when your partner put you there.

I love Aikido & believe that O-Sensei offered us the perfect model for the perfect martial art. O-Sensei cross-trained, and I recommend the same to everyone...but stick to your game. Aikido, when applied properly, allows someone to control a bigger, faster, stronger opponent regardless of what attack they choose to employ. The catch is...it is up to everyone to make their own Aikido work! That means, that you can train at the feet of O-Sensei himself for ten years and still walk away with nothing of martial significance, if you have not taken what is given, internalized it, and made it your own. I have seen excellent aikidoka come out of very poor dojos & terrible aikidoka come out of highly reputable schools. I certainly do not wish to offend anyone who practices a softer style, but without martial efficacy, THERE IS NO BUDO!

I understand that different people study Aikido for different reasons, but if you are one of those individuals, don't come up to me & tell me that the art that Ueshiba-Sensei worked so hard to give us "isn't really a good choice for real self-defense" and that I should study karate or judo if I want my technique to be effective. Aikido IS effective because I have used it, and I can feel it working everytime I get on the mat. Ask some of the deshi who lived with the Ueshiba family if they think HE was combat effective.

I agree with Mike...If you are not satisfied with what is being offered at your dojo, then try to find somewhere else, or if that is your only option - do the best that you can to make your technique stand out. People will notice when they are used to falling down for each other & you suddenly introduce them to a real application of technique. The two gentlemen I have the privilige of training under are both modern day warrior poets & they inspire me all over again everytime I set foot on the mat.

So if you are among the group that practices because it is a cool opportunity for a social hour, or because it appeals to something other than your desire to participate in warriorship, then that is perfectly fine. But stop making excuses for aikido & why it doesn't work! They are YOUR EXCUSES... Aikido requires none.

Respectfully, but with righteous indignation...

Adam

bob_stra
05-02-2003, 12:56 PM
This is a question that will never be resolved because the focus is on the wrong thing.

Could you bust a guy's wrist nikyo? Yes you could.

Could YOU *actually* do it - do you have the pre-requsiste understanding of how a resisting opponent moves, the dynamics of movement, how to set up the opporunity?

What's more, could YOU gain this from YOUR aikido training?

It's not the techniques, it's the methodology.

Mel Barker
05-02-2003, 01:33 PM
I'd be willing to pay $100 just to never again see the word "street" in an aikido forum ever again.

Mel

Michael Neal
05-02-2003, 01:41 PM
street ;)

paw
05-02-2003, 01:55 PM
So there's this dojo across the street ....

akiy
05-02-2003, 02:00 PM
I'm sure I could just do a simple 's/street//gi' somewhere in the code...

-- Jun

Hanna B
05-02-2003, 03:10 PM
ROTFL

shanman
05-02-2003, 04:42 PM
I grew up in the streets and have been in some fights and saw a lot of fights. I've never seen a trained street fighter. Every fight I've seen or been in the attacker just throws blows indiscriminantly with no skill...weapon or not. Don't overrate the street fighter any one who is sound in 10/12 self defense techniques can neutralize or defeat an attacker. Aikido is selfdefense. If you read O'seisei's history that's one of the primary reason he started it. I find this is true with all martial arts.

Peter Klein
05-02-2003, 05:40 PM
i am a relativ newbie but our dojo is very social and does lots of things that dont work in a fight. cause like nearly all dojos in cologne,germany they are inspiretated by the french softer/flowing style. But I think it should be effective anyhow

sanosuke
05-02-2003, 10:38 PM
whats the most street effective aikido style?

RUN, PETER!.....RUUUUN!

opherdonchin
05-03-2003, 12:21 AM
So, now that we've all agreed that the question was silly, which, I think, the thread-originator also agreed with up front, I'm still sort of curious about an answer.

That is, given that wide-strip-of-concrete-with-houses-on-either-side (wsocwhoes, from now on) effectiveness is mostly an issue of the individuals talent and commitment and experience, and given that what is taught in a dojo depends more on the teacher than on the style, and given that there any number of other ways that this is a silly question, what would be the most wsocwhoes-effective style of Aikido. Is Yoshinkan more likely to be wsocwhoes-effective (all other things being equal) because its emphasis on basic technique will lead to proper movement even in times of stress? That would be my guess even though I've never trained Yoshinkan.

I guess I'm just trying to derail the conversation into some variant of the wsocwhoes question that might not have been beaten to death.

opherdonchin
05-03-2003, 12:25 AM
I had a conversation a few years ago with a friend of mine who studies Ninjitsu.

Friend: Our sensei said that the Ninjitsu philosophy is that if you've gotten into a fight you've already done something wrong ...

Me (interrupting): ... Yeah, our sensei says the same thing. ...

Friend (continuing the thought): he says that you really should have snuck up from behind and killed the other guy before he even knows your there.

Me: ....

bob_stra
05-03-2003, 01:30 AM
I'd be willing to pay $100 just to never again see the word "street" in an aikido forum ever again.

Mel

In US dollars?

STRE....EEK

ST.....EAK

STRE..et theatre

STRe.....ET car

STR.....atoshphere

;-)

Mel Barker
05-03-2003, 09:53 AM
...Our sensei said that the Ninjitsu philosophy is that if you've gotten into a fight you've already done something wrong ...you really should have snuck up from behind and killed the other guy before he even knows your there.
In aikido, I'd suggest a sniper rifle. Less chance that the target may catch you stalking.

Now if the target visits this forum, I'd just tell everyone he started a thread on Aikido's effectiveness and let everyone bash him to death. ;)

Ron Tisdale
05-03-2003, 11:10 AM
To the person who asked about yoshinkan...

For some people the yoshinkan teaching method and focus on basics would be better.

For some people those same things would be worse.

Depends on a lot of things; teacher, student, partners, focus, desire, body type....

Too many things to count. Just more reasons why the topic is silly.

I don't think my aikido would be at whatever level it is with competition thrown in...just not my bag.

But my brain says one of THE best methodologies for success in a chaotic environment would have to be randori as practised in judo or shodokan aikido. I've dabbled a tiny bit in judo, never done shodokan, so by my own reasoning, I'm not in the best place for "effective on the street". go figure.

If you think yoshinkan is hard...well, its hard to learn (like any other aikido), but hard / soft (as someone else said) doesn't really describe the differences very well.

Think precise, detailed, structured, focused...things like that describe yoshinkan better than hard.

One of the softest styles of aikido I've trained in (not ki society) was one of the most difficult workouts I've ever had. They could keep going for hours, days. Finally, I had to admit I could not. Was it good aikido? I thought so. Was it "street effective?" At this point, I couldn't give a rat's ***. But then, I'm already satisfied that at whatever level I'm at, I'm safe enough already. So now its time to focus on doing aikido well.

Ron Tisdale

Jeff R.
05-03-2003, 12:55 PM
Why is this difficult? Aikido is street effective; but are YOU street effective? Anyone who has to ask the question either doesn't understand the principles of the techniques and applications, or hasn't been in any self-defense situations, or both. If you are unsure about efficacy, PRACTICE THE TECHNIQUES AGAINST RETRACTED JABS, UPPERCUTS, AND HAYMAKERS. The flow is different, but the principles are exactly the same. Musubi is crucial.

If you want to kick someone's a@@, quit Aikido and buy a baseball bat; if you don't care about the practical application of Aikido in resolving conflict, you may enjoy ballroom dancing as well--no conflict, only harmonious movement; if you are only worried about effectiveness, get off the computer and ask someone to give you some "street" attacks.

PeterR
05-03-2003, 11:32 PM
I don't think my aikido would be at whatever level it is with competition thrown in...just not my bag.

But my brain says one of THE best methodologies for success in a chaotic environment would have to be randori as practised in judo or shodokan aikido. I've dabbled a tiny bit in judo, never done shodokan,
Ron - just to point out I haven't done shiai in a long time but I do do randori. Not that great in either but I'm trying to remedy that. Shiai is to be experienced offering lessons in its own right but two guys training each other is what randori is all about. Absolute chaos its not but it sure comes closer to that than anything you will find in other styles of Aikido. I personally have no interest in competition, not my bag either, but the advantages of randori are obvious to all that have experienced it. I know Aikikai dojos whose shihan have introduced the system.

PeterR
05-04-2003, 01:07 AM
Ki-Aikido? I thought all schools taught Ki-Aikido, or at least have some ki involved;)
Don't worry I caught the ;) but no - at least not with Tohei K.'s take on it. It sure was the source of one of his problems with Ueshiba K. and his view is definately different than many of Ueshiba M.'s uchideshi. A lot of it came not from Ueshiba M. but from another organization that Tohei K. belonged to.

Ki means many things. Therefore you do hear/read people like Ueshiba K., Shioda G., Tomiki K. use the term but that does not mean it has the same nuance. I personally have never heard the term used in a dojo in Japan but of course my experience is limited and in the case of my particular style there is another more specific term which some other styles/teachers use the term Ki.

The thing is, we are not studying Ai Ki Do but Aiki Do. The compound takes on a specific meaning which may or may not be related to its component parts.

tedehara
05-04-2003, 05:19 AM
...My first teacher in aikido had also lived in Chicago, where he was a semi-professional boxer. He also trained in the same style of karate as me. His approach to and application of aikido was "no nonsense." We were all acutely aware of the damage that could be done by a trained striker, a knife, or a gun. We had all seen our share of street violence....What is the name of your first teacher? Is he still around?

Col.Clink
05-04-2003, 07:48 AM
Don't worry I caught the ;) but no - at least not with Tohei K.'s take on it. It sure was the source of one of his problems with Ueshiba K. and his view is definately different than many of Ueshiba M.'s uchideshi. A lot of it came not from Ueshiba M. but from another organization that Tohei K. belonged to.

Ki means many things. Therefore you do hear/read people like Ueshiba K., Shioda G., Tomiki K. use the term but that does not mean it has the same nuance. I personally have never heard the term used in a dojo in Japan but of course my experience is limited and in the case of my particular style there is another more specific term which some other styles/teachers use the term Ki.

The thing is, we are not studying Ai Ki Do but Aiki Do. The compound takes on a specific meaning which may or may not be related to its component parts.
Hi Peter,

Admittedly It was "tongue in cheek". (glad you got the wink!!)

Yes I do know about Tempu Nakamura and the other influences Koichi Tohei Sensei brought to his school. What I was refering to, was that "Ki" is not limited to just Ki Society aikidoka, but all aikidoka, Just with differing perspectives depending on what lineage they are from.

I've recently had the pleasure of training with a Godan from Aikikai, and although he was 2.5 times my age, he had what I call, good Ki.

By Ki I mean: spirit, energy, demeanour, life force, power, etc etc etc.

Others may call it technique, experience, knowledge, etc etc etc, and that's ok by me too ( not that anyone needs my approval )

He even mentioned that he had never heard the term "ki" mentioned anymore than a passing comment in his years of study.

I am still not experienced enough to understand all things Aiki, hopefully having an open mind and talking with people such as yourself,reading these threads and of course practice, I can at least experience a smidgen of it before I return to the source. But honestly, I just enjoy Aikido, I have not yet figured out why!!:blush:

There is an interesting article here (http://www.maui.net/~cdc/kokyu/interview.html) with Curtis Sensei from Hawaii. Well, may or may not be of interest you.

Cheers Peter

Rob

Michael Neal
05-05-2003, 02:25 PM
Street

PeterR
05-05-2003, 09:14 PM
But honestly, I just enjoy Aikido
:D
There is an interesting article here (http://www.maui.net/~cdc/kokyu/interview.html) with Curtis Sensei from Hawaii. Well, may or may not be of interest you.
Book marked it - will read later - thanks.