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Old 05-01-2003, 02:54 PM   #1
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
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whats the most street effective aikido style?

yeah thats my question
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Old 05-01-2003, 03:13 PM   #2
Bronson
 
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I hear there is a dojo in Cologne called something like; Aikido Kreis Koeln. I bet what they are doing is exactly what you're looking for

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-01-2003, 03:16 PM   #3
Peter Klein
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hehe i am just interested i am happy where I am.
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Old 05-01-2003, 03:25 PM   #4
Ron Tisdale
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Why not do a search on this site, the aikido journal site and e-budo for the extant discussions on this topic. If there is insufficient data there, try rec.martial-arts.

Ron :>

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-01-2003, 03:28 PM   #5
Dave Miller
 
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It seems like my sensei told us sometime that most aikidokas who get into confrontations are yonkyu and below. Usually they resolve the situation by simple kuzushi.

At any rate, it seems to me that the skill of the aikidoka would have more to do with effectiveness than the style. I pity the fool who would have dared to mess with O'seisei in his later days.


DAVE

If you're working too hard, you're doing it wrong.
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Old 05-01-2003, 04:06 PM   #6
Hanna B
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I very much doubt that this question can be answered. The "harder" aikido styles will claim that they are more "streeet effective". Others will disagree.

So either you get a thread with 200+ posts where people start calling each other ugly names in the end. Or people will be reluctant to touch the subject because they have been there and done that, in which case your thread will not take you too far.
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Old 05-01-2003, 08:02 PM   #7
Jeff R.
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I've found that it's not necessarily the Aikido that is street effective, but the principles of Aikido. The techniques we train with are typically for traditional strikes. Now adapt the principles to retracting jabs, uppercuts, and multiple punches/kicks. I've been training with a fabulous street-effective system, tried and tested in full contact, and it's still Aikido, still leaves the attacker an option, and doesn't have to be violent at all.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-01-2003, 08:10 PM   #8
Col.Clink
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all styles would be effective, it's up to the individual to find out how, in one way or another, before that happens I guess.

"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 05-01-2003, 08:16 PM   #9
PeterR
 
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Don't quite agree with that. An individual will gravitate toward the style and more importantly the training methodology that suits them. Some styles/training methodologies are more effective than others of producing fighters. If learning to be effective on the street is your primary concern then there are dojos to be avoided.
Quote:
Robert H.G Burrell (Col.Clink) wrote:
all styles would be effective, it's up to the individual to find out how, in one way or another, before that happens I guess.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-01-2003, 09:05 PM   #10
Kevin Wilbanks
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It depends on which street you're talking about.

Here in the westside suburbs, where I live, I'd say all Aikido is equally effective... so long as you carry stick of some sort, as the only attackers you are likely to encounter are stray dogs.

Up on the north side of Jacksonville, depending upon what kind of attention you attract, I wouldn't count on any style of Aikido to help you. Your best bet there is a .45 or .357 magnum and a cell phone with 911 on voice dial.
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Old 05-01-2003, 09:17 PM   #11
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
It depends on which street you're talking about.
Laughs - just last week I was told the reason why Tomiki's stock went up in Kobayashi's eyes. Something to do with a six month hospitalization after trying to pick up the wrong women in Italy. Strangely enough the Judo people went to Tomiki for much the same reason - although to my eyes the Goshin Jutsu looks a little stilted.

I must say that when people talk about street effective what they really mean is dojo training that will give them the feeling of dominance. Until you do so it's all an illusion but confidence is the key. Without the latter you are lost. If it is important to you and you are not getting that confidence then you are in the wrong dojo.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-01-2003, 10:40 PM   #12
Col.Clink
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Don't quite agree with that. An individual will gravitate toward the style and more importantly the training methodology that suits them. Some styles/training methodologies are more effective than others of producing fighters. If learning to be effective on the street is your primary concern then there are dojos to be avoided.
Hi Peter,

I have to say that I think all styles can be effective if applied in street combat, you just have to know what will work where, or be taught it. Of course there are schools that focus more on "street" Aikido, wether they are more effective I cannot say as I have never attended that many different schools, but I have been in many a confrontation (unfortunately) to know how to apply my style and still be effective. I think if someone's main concern is street defence, then a course or two in street combat would be a whole lot better than spending time on Aikido, but again, I come back to the individual and what they want out of it. I know I started Aikido to learn how to stop fighting.

If you would please be so kind as to answer me the following I would appreciate it:

My question(s) is(are), what dojo's should be avoided, and how does someone not in the know, know?

Cheers Peter

Rob


"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 05-01-2003, 10:56 PM   #13
acot
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Which schools teach the best street diplomacy?

Ryan
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Old 05-01-2003, 11:07 PM   #14
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Robert H.G Burrell (Col.Clink) wrote:
Of course there are schools that focus more on "street" Aikido, wether they are more effective I cannot say as I have never attended that many different schools ....
My contention is that these schools are not necessarily that effective either, same with many PK schools, it really boils down to how does a particular school/martial art approach the randomness and stress levels associated with actually fighting. So then ...
Quote:
My question(s) is(are), what dojo's should be avoided, and how does someone not in the know, know?
becomes the million dollar question of which I don't have the answer to. Know what you want and watch classes. Look at the students and not only the sensei. Find out what they are after from their training and how they approach their goals. Gut feeling is often your best indicator.

Just to be clear - I don't see the street as my primary reason for doing Aikido. My comments were more along the lines that its not the martial artist its the individual is a bit of a canard. It's clear certain types of individuals will gravitate to certain types of training.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-01-2003, 11:08 PM   #15
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Ryan Bertram (acot) wrote:
Which schools teach the best street diplomacy?
Ala Teddy Rossevelt?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-01-2003, 11:30 PM   #16
Col.Clink
Dojo: Waiuku Ki Society
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Just to be clear - I don't see the street as my primary reason for doing Aikido. My comments were more along the lines that its not the martial artist its the individual is a bit of a canard. It's clear certain types of individuals will gravitate to certain types of training.
Ahhh..thanks Peter for your thoughts. I would agree that an individual will defend themselves in the way they are trained, but I'll also expand on that by saying if they have any idea/experience in a combat situation, then their training no matter what style, will take on a whole different characteristic than what they have learned. I hate to say it, but it comes back to the individual, and their experience or lack of it. Although I do also agree with what you are saying (if I can agree but disagree at the same time that is) But hey, I've still got a long way to go.

Cheers

Rob


"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 05-02-2003, 05:22 AM   #17
Peter Klein
Dojo: Aikido Kreis Koeln (Germany)
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there is hardly a good school that teaches combat effective aikido in cologne. Is ki-aikido a bit street orientated?
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Old 05-02-2003, 05:28 AM   #18
PeterR
 
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As a general rule its more the opposite extreme although I am sure there are exceptions.
Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
there is hardly a good school that teaches combat effective aikido in cologne. Is ki-aikido a bit street orientated?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-02-2003, 06:50 AM   #19
Col.Clink
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Quote:
Peter Klein wrote:
there is hardly a good school that teaches combat effective aikido in cologne. Is ki-aikido a bit street orientated?
Ki-Aikido? I thought all schools taught Ki-Aikido, or at least have some ki involved

Ki Society can be what ever you want it to be. We most likely train on the softer side compared to others,( I really do not know as I have not seen/partaken in Yoshinkan personally) but like all schools, depends on the instructors.

cheers

Rob


"Excess leads to the path of Wisdom"
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Old 05-02-2003, 07:30 AM   #20
ian
 
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I think different situations call for different approaches. Situations are always very different, and ability to deal appropriately is the key.

I really hate all this soft vs hard. To me the reason we use aiki (blending) is to gain advantage over the person. There is a big difference between being soft and real blending; the former doesn't work.

I also think for real situations adaptability is the key; especially if someone knows you do aikido are are blending sometimes the best technique is very direct.

The best style? In my mind get a good solid foundation in technique and then get whatever is useful out of each instructor. Also important is to realise what we are similating in our own dojo (and I think this varies from dojo to dojo). For example, when I swim I use a kick-board to build up leg strength; however if I swam normally with my body like that I would be pittiful. In aikido we should do various forms; static, moving, blending, atemis etc - the key to practical street defence is knowing what we are trying to obtain from the exercise; and they are just exercises!

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 05-02-2003, 07:31 AM   #21
mike lee
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I like judo

Quote:
there is hardly a good school that teaches combat effective aikido in cologne.
If their aikido is not effective, then they're not teaching aikido.

If I were in such a situation, I would look for the best martial-arts instructor in your area, regardless of style.

My personal preference is for judo, for a number of reasons. But, because it's an Olympic sport, it seems to have wide-spread popularity and a number of good teachers. Also, it's relatively easy to transition back into aikido at a later time. The ukemi is very similar.

Most of the best aikidoists I've run into over the years, began training in judo.

Personally, I love judo techniques. They're usually very physical and easy to learn, understand and apply to street situations. Simple, yet effective.

It seems to me that learning judo and then transitioning to aikido is a natural, logical step.
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Old 05-02-2003, 07:42 AM   #22
ian
 
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P.S. I would definately say the individual is more important than the martial art because:

1. indivduals have different natural levels of ability

2. individuals have different levels of commitment

3. There are very many techniques from a range of martial arts that can work effectively if trained sincerely and repeatedly (in fact I know one great chinese martial artist who learnt only one technique!)

4. individuals have different objectives in their martial arts

5. what people see in one single technique depends on previous experience.

To me the martial art is a set of techniques and practise regime headed by a sensei who inspires you in some way.

Maybe in order of importance for training in street effectiveness I would say:

1. understanding of what real fights are like

2. objective (has to be directed towards effectiveness)

3. consistent training

4. physical ability

5. technique (I think the weakest of points 4 and 5 will be what lets you down).

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 05-02-2003, 07:44 AM   #23
Hanna B
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Re: I like judo

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
If their aikido is not effective, then they're not teaching aikido.
Mike - when you were a beginner, could you tell effective aikido from poor aikido?
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Old 05-02-2003, 08:10 AM   #24
mike lee
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fight or flight

Quote:
Mike - when you were a beginner, could you tell effective aikido from poor aikido?
Absolutely. I grew up fighting on the streets of Chicago. Usefullness was always first and foremost in my mind. Before I came to aikido, I learned some judo, karate and kung fu. All were taught to me in a practical, effective manner, with the immediate purpose of the techniques being applied ASAP.

My first teacher in aikido had also lived in Chicago, where he was a semi-professional boxer. He also trained in the same style of karate as me. His approach to and application of aikido was "no nonsense." We were all acutely aware of the damage that could be done by a trained striker, a knife, or a gun. We had all seen our share of street violence.

My first Japanese teacher was a pilot for the Imperial Japanese Navy during World War II. There wasn't much nonsense about him either.

When I entered aikido class, I trained for battle from day one. I respect anyone else that has the same desire. If their teacher doesn't fill the bill, they can either continue wasting their time, or find someone who is with the program.

Personally, I don't have much time for nonsense.
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Old 05-02-2003, 10:35 AM   #25
Hanna B
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Mike, do you mean that most aikido is effective (except for som bad teachers), or that smaller portions of the aikido world is? If number two, than you are boldly stating that a lot of aikido people spend their time doing nonsense. By all, means, if it makes you happy...

I must say I envy your ability to spot quality. I come to think of an old interview with Christian Tissier, when he talks about first time he arrived to Hombu.

The next day, I went to 6:30 am class and saw Doshu for the first time. He was doing iriminage, and I thought, "This guy isn't very good." He wasn't doing iriminage the way I was used to seeing it. That's a big problem in Aikido. When you don't see what you are used to seeing, you think it's no good. I thought that Doshu's movement was strange for four or five months, and then, of course, the practice changed my mind. http://www.aiki.com/sneak/tissier.html

To me, this sounds more like most of us function.

Can of worms. Here we go...
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