Aikido in Judo Randori

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[Michael Neal]

I am going to try some Aikido during Judo randori over the next few weeks. So far I have use an Aikido sacrifice throw and iriminage successfully.

You had to be there to see the expression on some of the Judoka's faces after telling me earlier how ineffective Aikido was.

I am actually worried about injuring my partners because they are not used to taking throws headfirst into the mat without Tori(nage) helping them into a breakfall.

I will have to be careful but are there any tecniques that you have used in similar situations or alternatively are there any techniques you would like me to try? I will let you know how it worked. This is certainly not a scientific test of the effectiveness of the techniques but it is just for fun.

[Thor's Hammer]

Shihonage- because it plays with the wrists and will challenge you.

[Michael Neal]

Shihonage will definately be difficult to pull off but I will try.

[mj]

Have you told the Judoka that you will be doing this?

[The Wrenster]

i have done Judo for a year now, and have begun Aikido recently. Some other Judokas have been practicing Aikido for a long while, and it really shows in their movement and gentle kuzushi. Some things I have noticed are kokyonage during newaza, and generally, nasty grip breaks on the wrists. the occasional ikkyo also comes into play too :D Try all you want, but face plants are not good in judo :S

Al the best, have a laugh, Adam

[Michael Neal]

Have you told the Judoka that you will be doing this?
I will never do any technique that I feel that my training partner can't handle or that puts them in danger. Some techniques like shihonage that are illegal in judo competition I would definately let my partner know what I was doing.

[PeterR]

I've been doing Judo for about a year now - the story can be found in several buried threads but the Aikido technique that works is plain old shomen-ate. Combine that with a leg hook and Bob's your uncle.

[Chuck Clark]

Peter,

One of my relatively new shodan back in the late 70's won a state level judo championship with ippon from a gedan ate. The judo version is sukui nage (more or less...) and of course, there's the old standby, waki gatame. The way I used to do it is illegal in shiai now, but modifications abound. Sumi otoshi works in judo shiai also.

Too much fun!

[PeterR]

Lately I've been trying to get hikiotoshi to work with limited success - I'll try sumi-otoshi. Gedan-ate sounds wonderfull but I'm a bit leary about playing around with wakigatame.

The shomen-ate works best as a wave action. I hesitate to say that the Aikido techniques rely heavily on timing as the appears to be the case with the Judo techniques also.

[Michael Neal]

I don't know what these techniques are: hikiotoshi, sumi-otoshi, Gedan-ate, wakigatame. We don't use these names for techniques in our Aikido school.

Shomen ate would be sort of difficult to try because some people may simply not lean away from it and get hit in the face or you would have to look like you are practicing karate and stop the stike in front of them.

There are some pretty big guys in my class that I do not want to accidently hit in the face :eek:

[L. Camejo]

Hey folks,

Nice Thread.

Chuck - Gedanate is just sweet from my experience with judoka as well, especially if one maintains posture to avoid being held onto as the judoka gets launched :) Did one this week at a seminar I did in Canada.

When not playing under pure Judo rules, a nice setup for a kotegaeshi works extremely well just as the judoka is about to grasp your gi :) All they know is they tried for a kuzushi and the next thing they see is ceiling :) Timing is everything.

Shomen ate works best for me when I can get the judoka's chin/head extended backward (body locked out with arms extended as they grab my gi) just before a very deep and sinking irimi. Again, keeping posture and sinking weight is important to not get taken to the floor - they just snap off as the weight of their own falling body breaks their grip on the gi as your back stays perfectly straight.

Like Peter says though, timing is KEY to all of this.

Just my 2 cents.

Arigato Gozaimashita

L.C.:ai::ki:

[L. Camejo]

Oh yeah, I forgot the strangle hold variants to aigamae ate (irimi nage) and gyakugamae ate (sokumen) as well.

Works equally well standing or in judo ne waza once you get in the right position. :)

Just a half cent to add to the others :)

Arigato

[Jesse Lee]

I have no judo experience but have been doing BJJ for a couple years. A little while ago I was rolling with a BJJ bluebelt, who is also a yudansha @ my aikido dojo. He did a great move: he let me grab his wrist cuff, and he pretend to try to flail my grip away, and when he brought his wrist up by his ear ... boom, he snapped on a nikkyo. Wow, did it surprise me! He says he loves doing this with non-aikidoka BJJ folks, since they instantly get freaked out by nikkyo. (O/c he never injures anyone.)

Another really cool aikido move that got me in BJJ, while rolling with another BJJ bluebelt who also outranks me in aikido: While on the ground, facing each other, he let me get a decent cross-collar grab. He reached across and put a light kote-gaishi grip on my hand, but he made it seem like he was just protecting from my choke. Then he spun inside, giving up his back, but kept that grip. And right as I went for his back, he dropped his weight and applied a big kote-gaishe to my wrist! It was cool.

[deepsoup]

I don't know what these techniques are: hikiotoshi, sumi-otoshi, Gedan-ate, wakigatame. We don't use these names for techniques in our Aikido school.
The names are the ones that Tomiki sensei used, if its any help, you could have a look at the Randori no Kata animations at the Shodokan (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10.html) homepage to relate the names to the techniques. (Theres some interesting commentary that relates some of the techniques to judo kata too.)
Shomen ate would be sort of difficult to try because some people may simply not lean away from it and get hit in the face or you would have to look like you are practicing karate and stop the stike in front of them.
Heres a suggestion for a shomenate you could try without the fear of accidentally punching a big gnarly guy in the jaw: Lets say you're in a right posture, with your right hand on your partners collar. Move your right hand into position for shomenate, so that its already in contact, and your arm is bent. Drop down onto your left knee (not quite all the way to the mat) and turn your hips, keeping your hand there, so that the arm straightens (into a nice centred 'unbendable' arm), and then immediately come back up, maintaining the unbendable arm and channelling power from your hips to move your partner. Since you maintain contact with your hand the whole time, you're not going to 'strike' as such, but still deliver a lot of force, initially upwards, then backwards.

Sorry if the description isn't totally clear, its something my instructor does to great effect in randori.

If the timing is right, maybe you could feint with a slight tug on your partners collar as you drop down, and ideally he'll resist and give you an upward reaction to blend with as you come back up?

Sean

x

[Dross]

My sempai and I often go the other way, throwing Judo into our Aikido Randori. It makes it pretty interesting, but you have to make sure your partner(s) have their ukemi down cold.

[PeterR]

Thank you Sean - you saved me some typing. I found that the slight tug you mentioned doesn't have to be that subtle but is very necessary. Most Judo players have good posture very tough to break. It's what I meant by the wave action. Pull toward you, drop down a little bit and put him upwards and backwards and yes you should have a grip on his gi with your leading hand.

The other hand to the small of the back helps also.

[bob_stra]

I am going to try some Aikido during Judo randori over the next few weeks. So far I have use an Aikido sacrifice throw and iriminage successfully.
I'd be very curious to see how this turns out for you! And I'm impressed that you got irimi nage to work. Could you write a little more on that encounter?

Just remember to tell them before hand that you'd like to mix in a little aikido. An angry judoka looking to hurt you is not the best way to prolong your life expectancy ;-)

I'd like to know how well Nikyo and sankyo work against grips. And shionage.

Please do post the full report ;-)

[Michael Neal]

I got the short version of iriminage to work where you pull down and back on uke's shoulders to get him to fall backwards. It worked when my partner was shooting in for my legs, with irimi I got behind him and dropped him when he tried to turn and face again. The sacrice throw worked nicely because my partner was stiff arming me and pushing me forward, I dropped to the ground while pulling him over me.

[Kensai]

Although I find it very hard applying any Judo in Judo randori at the moment, there has been one instance where I have mananged to use a kokyu nage.

Once they have taken the standard grip, cut back bringing their weight forward grab the bottom of their right arm with your left hand, pulling them more onto you, then turn in looking in the direction of your partner then do down on one knee and extend though with your free right arm putting more pressure on their right arm and pull in with your left.

[bob_stra]

Although I find it very hard applying any Judo in Judo randori at the moment, there has been one instance where I have mananged to use a kokyu nage.
I thought kokyo nage was another name for hip throws (eg: judo's "goshi" series). Google informs me otherwise.

What your describing sounds like this

http://www.aikidocentrum-utrecht.aikikai.nl/images/tori-fune-kokyu-nage.png

Kudos! I thought that move would *never* work ;-)

PS: Ditto abt having a hard time applying judo in judo randori ;-)

[JW]

I'd like to know how well Nikyo and sankyo work against grips.
Yeah, me too!
Especially nikkyo. I was watching some judo matches on tape, and I noticed that everybody starts out by coming in to quickly grab gi at both shoulders. It is like this is the generic beginning. The thing is, from my simple non-judo point of view, it looks like this is just begging for a nikkyo!

One of the simplest aikido techniques that I know is nikkyo urawaza from shoulder grabs (one shoulder, or in this case, both shoulders). Just grab the hand that grabs your shoulder, and then it is just 2 quick hip movements and you have a strong nikkyo.

What do you think? Or is nikkyo illegal in judo?
--JW

[Kensai]

bob_stra,

The pic is nothing like what I was trying to discribe.

But the enterance looks a bit like O Goshi. But instead of putting your right arm around the waist and going for the hip throw, you bring the right te gatana to there right arm (which you have controled with a Gi grip with the left), then droping to on knee and turning to face the same direction as uke, bringing all your weight onto the one arm, so they either do a forward Aikido-like Mae Ukemi, or a hard Judo like Ushiro breakfall, which is more likely. Sorry I cant discribe it any better.

JW

You have to be careful with wrist locks in Judo Randori. There are only a few allowed standing arm locks, I am not sure whether wrist locks are permitted.

[Bronson]

Or is nikkyo illegal in judo?
I seem to remember the judo guys I know telling me wrist locks were illegal in sport judo. Of course they also went on to tell me that nothing is illegal if the ref doesn't see it ;) One of the guys studied with us for a little over a year and he is always using small things he learned in aikido. Especially the elbow controls we do. I know that in a few occasions he's gotten his opponent to tap out by using a sneaky wrist technique while grappling on the ground. He keeps telling the other judo guys to give it a chance but they won't.

Bronson

[Fiona D]

Chris,

What you're describing sounds a bit like the Judo/JiuJitsu throw 'Uki Otoshi' ('floating drop') to me. I was trying to visualise your description and that's what came to mind.

I remember when I saw my first kokyunage in Aikido and it reminded me strongly of Uki Otoshi. Hope that helps!

[Kensai]

Fiona thats more or less it. Just looked it up in "Kodokan Judo". Instead of keeping the laple grip and pushing, you cut down onto their arm and kneel.

[Michael Neal]

It seems that I was doing Judo anyway, that version of iriminage is also taught in Judo called one of the forms of antiquity, and the sacrifice throw was identical to Judo's Yoko Otoshi.

KOTE-GAESHI is a Judo technique as well, it is just not legal in competition.

[PeterR]

It seems that I was doing Judo anyway, that version of iriminage is also taught in Judo called one of the forms of antiquity, and the sacrifice throw was identical to Judo's Yoko Otoshi.

KOTE-GAESHI is a Judo technique as well, it is just not legal in competition.
A good point that we shouldn't forget. Judo encompases Kata as well as Randori with the former containing many techniques not seen in randori. Lest we forget Judo's Goshin Jutsu is very Aikido like. One might say that was through Kenji Tomiki's influence yet as I understand it many of the techniques are found in a number of jujutsu schools not just that of Daito-ryu and Ueshiba M.

[bob_stra]

Jonathan Wong

>What do you think? Or is nikkyo illegal in >judo?

I'm not crash hot with nikkyo. (though I spent most of last night drilling it from that exact situation). Perhaps it would work, but not by me ;-)

Yes it's illegal. The only joint you're allowed to attack in randori is the elbow. (though, if you're clever, you can get to the shoulder, spine and knees. And it looks perfectly innocent and legal. The devil is in the details ;-)

Chris Gee

> The pic is nothing like what I was trying to > discribe

I still can't quite make out the technique. Is it either this...

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/sodetsur.gif

this

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/tsurikomigoshi.htm

or this ?

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukigoshi.htm

Anyway, good stuff ;-)

Judo's "aiki" techniques can be seen here

http://www.judoinfo.com/video4.htm

Look under the "Kote" series for example.

[PeterR]

All three of the kote techniques are versions regularily practiced in the Shodokan (Kenji Tomiki's) Dojo. The execution, with the exception of some finer points, is almost identical. OK my head is a little thick today but can some one confirm that the techniques labelled as self defence come from Tomiki's Goshin Jutsu. I thought I knew them to see them but all of a sudden am not so sure.

[Kensai]

bob_stra, it looks a lot like Uki Goshi. But instead of the arm arond the waist you use that same arm to push down on there right.

[Michael Neal]

I got the following links from the judo information site: http://judoinfo.com/video4.htm

These are listed ast judo techniques.

Here is kotegaeshi

http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/video/jigowaza/kote%20gaeshi.mpg

Sankyo (called kote hineri)

http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/video/jigowaza/kote%20hineri.mpg

Nikyo (called kote mawashi)

http://www.suginoharyu.com/html/video/jigowaza/kote%20mawashi.mpg

[PeterR]

Yes but Neal the point is what is their origin. A number of Aikido techniques found their way into the Judo kata via Kenji Tomiki in the 50s. Once incorporated of course they were Judo techniques.

[Aristeia]

I got the short version of iriminage to work where you pull down and back on uke's shoulders to get him to fall backwards. It worked when my partner was shooting in for my legs, with irimi I got behind him and dropped him when he tried to turn and face again. The sacrice throw worked nicely because my partner was stiff arming me and pushing me forward, I dropped to the ground while pulling him over me.
I think we sometimes forget how powerful some of our techniques are on people who don't expect them. I see people analising to the nth degree how to get uke to move around you properly for irimi nage or say kote gaeshi. Forgetting that the techniques are designed that once you take uke's balance, 90% of them will move exactly where you want them to go - like Mike's guy turning to face him and walking into an irimi nage.

I remember talking to a karete-ka (kyokushinkai) who had been playing with an Aikidoka and he was amazed that everytime he tried to recover his balance/position, the aikidoka would do something new to take it. Never realising he was probably moving in exactly the way our ukes are trained to (and get accused of being overly cooperative). So where he thought the aikidoka was coming up with instant strategies to keep him off balance, chances were he was just going through kihon.

[Michael Neal]

Yes but Neal the point is what is their origin. A number of Aikido techniques found their way into the Judo kata via Kenji Tomiki in the 50s. Once incorporated of course they were Judo techniques.
All I was trying to show was that the two arts share many of the same techniques not what the origins were. I was suprised to see someone doing sankyo, nikkyo etc. in a judo video, it made me think how similar the two arts are.

Yet when you enter newaza into the picture, they become more distant.

[bob_stra]

Michael -

So, has the "rematch" happened yet. What has turned out to be effective?

[Michael Neal]

Michael -

So, has the "rematch" happened yet. What has turned out to be effective?
I did not get a chance to use much Aikido last Judo class. I did however use some kokyu movements on the gound, the principle of it has helped me set up pins of some much larger opponents.

The funny thing is that I thought that I would like the ground fighting the least when I started Judo and now I like it better than stand up.

A 14 year old girl almost beat me in stand up randori though because I took the match too lightly and she came out fighting like a pit bull. I was so shocked by her aggressiveness that I forgot to try any Aikido techniques.

Maybe I will get a chance to try next class, if I am not beaten by some kid first. :)

[deepsoup]

Jonathan Wong

>What do you think? Or is nikkyo illegal in >judo?

(a little snippage)

Yes it's illegal. The only joint you're allowed to attack in randori is the elbow. (though, if you're clever, you can get to the shoulder, spine and knees. And it looks perfectly innocent and legal. The devil is in the details ;-)
Besides being illegal, nikkyo is also rather dangerous in a randori/shiai situation, so best avoided. Its also illegal in (Shodokan) aikido shiai, for the same reason - thats one technique we just have to save for 'cooperative' practice.

Sean

x

[shihonage]

A 14 year old girl almost beat me in stand up randori though because I took the match too lightly and she came out fighting like a pit bull. I was so shocked by her aggressiveness that I forgot to try any Aikido techniques.
:eek:

[Michael Neal]

:eek:
LOL, EEK! is about right. I thought I would take it easy on her and she definately took full advantage. She was throwing lightning fast foot sweeps over and over again I was tripping all over the place trying not to fall.

I am actually more scared to fight her again than some of the big gnarly brown belts in class. :)

[PeterR]

All I was trying to show was that the two arts share many of the same techniques not what the origins were. I was suprised to see someone doing sankyo, nikkyo etc. in a judo video, it made me think how similar the two arts are.

Yet when you enter newaza into the picture, they become more distant.
They do at that - Kenji Tomiki considered the two to be essentially the same - seperated only by ma ai.

Funny about the newaza though - I still feel more comfortable on the ground when doing Judo.

[bob_stra]

A 14 year old girl almost beat me in stand up randori though because I took the match too lightly and she came out fighting like a pit bull. I was so shocked by her aggressiveness that I forgot to try any Aikido techniques.

Maybe I will get a chance to try next class, if I am not beaten by some kid first. :)
Can we laugh and point in your general direction if you get beat by a pre-pubescent girl? ;-)

PS: If she's at all shorter than you, you can foot sweep her into oblivion while stiff arming her. Chances are she won't have the strength or the savvy to get around that.

Unless she's been doing judo since birth ;-)

[PeterR]

Can we laugh and point in your general direction if you get beat by a pre-pubescent girl? ;-)

PS: If she's at all shorter than you, you can foot sweep her into oblivion while stiff arming her. Chances are she won't have the strength or the savvy to get around that.

Unless she's been doing judo since birth ;-)
You'd be laughing at me - never underestimate the pre-pubescent girl. I do my duty with the kids at the local Judo club and there is a twelve year old girl who is in a word - serious. There's no guy her age that has a chance and she gives me a good work out. Then of course is my daughter - she doesn't even need Judo to tear me to shreds (not that she would).

[Aristeia]

You'd be laughing at me - never underestimate the pre-pubescent girl. I do my duty with the kids at the local Judo club and there is a twelve year old girl who is in a word - serious. There's no guy her age that has a chance and she gives me a good work out. Then of course is my daughter - she doesn't even need Judo to tear me to shreds (not that she would).
I'm with you. We have a judo kids class train before us, and one night one of the 14 year olds was comoplaining he didn't get to shiai like the others. I often show up early to watch the end of the class so the instructor pointed at me and said "fight him he'll give you a go". And it was a struggle. Sure he was big for a 14 yr old and strong, and I was playing under unfamiliar rules, but still. Didn't help that just as we started tusstling my students started filing through the dooor and I'm thinking "if they see me get waxed by this kid I'll never live it down"

Thankfully he eventually tried to force a tomoe nage which I blocked and jumped to knee on stomach like it was a long lost friend...

[PeterR]

Besides being illegal, nikkyo is also rather dangerous in a randori/shiai situation, so best avoided. Its also illegal in (Shodokan) aikido shiai, for the same reason - thats one technique we just have to save for 'cooperative' practice.
Hi Sean;

Love that cooperative stuff. A couple of weeks ago Nariyama was teaching a variation of this and several of us were lined up and being done by him in turn. No one backed out even though it was clear he was meaning it to hurt. I was last, took the position, and he just smiled and gently put me down. I was ALMOST disappointed.

Still in randori you are allowed to use gyakugamai gyakudori which is basically the nikkyo grip. Its the downward crunch that's forbidden for the same reason that dropping onto the elbow in wakagatamae is. Serious damage can result and neither is really necessary for getting control.

[bob_stra]

You'd be laughing at me - never underestimate the pre-pubescent girl.
If I may segue...

Men are in some ways taught to be "nice" to their female sparring partners. Invariably this bites both parties in the ass -

(1) You allow yourself to get beat up

(2) The said female in question gets an inflated opinion of her skills. This is *extremely* dangerous for her, because it gives an impression of being able to defend herself before she actually can. Thus leading to the "Xena complex".

I've seen this in aikido, judo, bjj and boxing. Aikido IME may be the worst for fostering this kind of thing.

I find it hard to envisage any sort of even vaguely trained male having troubles from 14 yr old girls. Or 14yr old boys for that matter.

Though I could be wrong. It happens from time to time ;-)

[PeterR]

Bob - we're having a bit of fun here.

However, children are children, and kohei are kohei. My job is to give them something to work with and if they do good give some recognition. It's the teaching experience. A kick ass Nidan will do the same to me - he'll work on what he needs and makes sure I work on what I need. And you know everyone knows what's going on. Kids/women are not dumb.

Secondly - the All Japan Junior High School Champion comes from my village. He started in my dojo. He's 15 but you wouldn't know it by looking at him. He outweighs me and outskills me. My regular training partner is 30 kg heavier than me and is now in cop school. I never had a chance with him but that young man destroyed him. I am sure he could have absolutely obliterated me a year ago also.

[bob_stra]

Bob - we're having a bit of fun here.
Of course - I got a little side tracked there.

Kids are a *blessing* to work with. Once our little judo club started closing down, all we had left were the young 'uns. Best of times and worst of times all in one.

I'd hazard a guess to say you could actually *learn* more from kids than a kick ass, killer black belt. (Or even the dreaded green belt sensei's).

Kids are fun ;-) I feel my previous point is valid, though it belongs on another thread.

Having said that, the whole thing of Judo : Aikido mystifies me a little. They're the same and yet radically different. The taisabaki is particularly frustrating to me at times, and I think the ukemi skills needed for aikido are a level of magnitude above those needed for judo. Also the kuzushi is different.

If someone put a gun to my head and said "choose one", I'm not entirely sure I could

;-)

PS: I'd love to see how / if tomiki randori bridges the judo : aikido gap. Are there any clips or such on the net? I know you tomiki folks do three differnt types of randori, but that's abt all I know of it.

[Michael Neal]

I find it hard to envisage any sort of even vaguely trained male having troubles from 14 yr old girls. Or 14yr old boys for that matter.
Its not hard to have trouble knowing that you look like an idiot whether you win or lose and that you would most likely look like a jerk if you picked the kid up and slammed them on the ground using pure strength, or if I resorted to an Aikido technique that she could not take ukemi from.

As it happens, she ended up getting a little hurt because she collided into my leg with her body when I was going for O soto gari and she was holding her ribs afterwards. I think this happened because she was flailing around so much. I got a ippon but at what expense, she might have bruised ribs or something now. I am actually thinking now that I should have lost the match instead.

The potential for injury in this kind of situation is high so I think it was wise that I did not use alot of force with her.

For any other opponent this injury would not have been a big deal, maybe it is expected from time to time, but she is a kid after all.
The way I see it it is ok for adults to accidently injur other adults and kids to injur other kids but not for adults to injur kids.

[bob_stra]

The potential for injury in this kind of situation is high so I think it was wise that I did not use alot of force with her.
My bad. I misunderstood what you had written the first time.

Not much point in hurting folks if you can avoid it.

Though it might have given you a unique chance to use aikido - a committed, uncontrolled opponent to immobilize gently with aikido?

From what you've written, it seems that mostly judo techniques work in judo randori, despite the fact they might remind you of aikido movements?

[Michael Neal]

I don't know how to immobilize anyone gently with Aikido. Most techniques I know are either pretty painful or require more ukemi skills than this kid probably had.

As with other who posted earlier, I find it hard to do judo in judo randori so Aikido gives me another option if the situation permits.

[bob_stra]

I don't know how to immobilize anyone gently with Aikido.
Neither do I. And I find that fact fascinating.

I also find it fascinating that you were able to control her with (half speed/strength?)

judo techniques but not aikido ones. (this is not a clever barb against you, just thinking out loud).

Hmm...that gives me an idea for a thread - self defense Vs Self offense. But right now, I've gotta catch some shut eye ;-)

[Michael Neal]

I was not always using half/speed or half strength when trying a judo technique but I did avoid using too much force when I thought the result might hurt her. She tripped my legs up a few times and I threw her with O Soto Gari, and that was about it.

Its hard to explain but I think you are taking this one contest too seriously anyway, I was just having some fun at my own expense by posting this anyway :)

More embarassing perhaps is the poor guy who fell for the "What's that over there" trick while I proceeded to do a double leg grab takedown.

[Michael Neal]

Neither do I. And I find that fact fascinating.
I think it is fascinating as well, I am very confused about why some aikidoists want to call it a "peaceful" art. I think judo is a more gentle in some respects.

[bob_stra]

Michael Neal wrote: -

>I was not always using half/speed or half >strength when trying a judo technique but I >did avoid using too much force when I thought >the result might hurt her.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

>Its hard to explain but I think you are >taking this one contest too seriously anyway,

No not at all, I just misunderstood what you initially wrote. The perils of reading two newsgroups at the same time ;-)

>More embarassing perhaps is the poor guy who >fell for the "What's that over there" trick

Heh ;-) Occasionally, when I had him well and truely pinned down, a friend of mine would reach up stick his finger (Wet Willy) into my ear. Disgusting stuff, never fails to get a reaction ;-)

[Mel Barker]

I think it is fascinating as well, I am very confused about why some aikidoists want to call it a "peaceful" art. I think judo is a more gentle in some respects.
I've never heard any Shihan with whom I've studied use this language. I think Aikido is a deadly martial art unless the practicitioner is highly skilled. If someone attacked our sankyu's with any enthusium and no ukemi skills, his head would bounce on the pavement.

Of course any sport that has rules could be considered gentle and since I've never studied judo I can't make camparisions, but I sure have had plenty of properly admonished aikidoka run into my fist.

Mel