Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-24-2003, 12:13 PM   #1
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Aikido in Judo Randori

I am going to try some Aikido during Judo randori over the next few weeks. So far I have use an Aikido sacrifice throw and iriminage successfully.

You had to be there to see the expression on some of the Judoka's faces after telling me earlier how ineffective Aikido was.

I am actually worried about injuring my partners because they are not used to taking throws headfirst into the mat without Tori(nage) helping them into a breakfall.

I will have to be careful but are there any tecniques that you have used in similar situations or alternatively are there any techniques you would like me to try? I will let you know how it worked. This is certainly not a scientific test of the effectiveness of the techniques but it is just for fun.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2003, 01:13 PM   #2
Thor's Hammer
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 51
Offline
Shihonage- because it plays with the wrists and will challenge you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2003, 01:29 PM   #3
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Shihonage will definately be difficult to pull off but I will try.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2003, 03:37 PM   #4
mj
Location: livingston, scotland
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 715
Offline
Have you told the Judoka that you will be doing this?

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2003, 04:33 PM   #5
The Wrenster
Location: Horsham
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 17
Offline
i have done Judo for a year now, and have begun Aikido recently. Some other Judokas have been practicing Aikido for a long while, and it really shows in their movement and gentle kuzushi. Some things I have noticed are kokyonage during newaza, and generally, nasty grip breaks on the wrists. the occasional ikkyo also comes into play too Try all you want, but face plants are not good in judo :S

Al the best, have a laugh, Adam

When you decide to cause harm, you are breaking the harmony of the Universe, and thus you are already defeated.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2003, 05:49 PM   #6
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
Quote:
mark johnston (mj) wrote:
Have you told the Judoka that you will be doing this?
I will never do any technique that I feel that my training partner can't handle or that puts them in danger. Some techniques like shihonage that are illegal in judo competition I would definately let my partner know what I was doing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2003, 07:01 PM   #7
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,021
Japan
Offline
I've been doing Judo for about a year now - the story can be found in several buried threads but the Aikido technique that works is plain old shomen-ate. Combine that with a leg hook and Bob's your uncle.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2003, 12:12 AM   #8
Chuck Clark
 
Chuck Clark's Avatar
Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
United_States
Offline
Peter,

One of my relatively new shodan back in the late 70's won a state level judo championship with ippon from a gedan ate. The judo version is sukui nage (more or less...) and of course, there's the old standby, waki gatame. The way I used to do it is illegal in shiai now, but modifications abound. Sumi otoshi works in judo shiai also.

Too much fun!

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2003, 12:41 AM   #9
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,021
Japan
Offline
Lately I've been trying to get hikiotoshi to work with limited success - I'll try sumi-otoshi. Gedan-ate sounds wonderfull but I'm a bit leary about playing around with wakigatame.

The shomen-ate works best as a wave action. I hesitate to say that the Aikido techniques rely heavily on timing as the appears to be the case with the Judo techniques also.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2003, 06:38 AM   #10
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
I don't know what these techniques are: hikiotoshi, sumi-otoshi, Gedan-ate, wakigatame. We don't use these names for techniques in our Aikido school.

Shomen ate would be sort of difficult to try because some people may simply not lean away from it and get hit in the face or you would have to look like you are practicing karate and stop the stike in front of them.

There are some pretty big guys in my class that I do not want to accidently hit in the face

Last edited by Michael Neal : 04-25-2003 at 06:44 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2003, 09:05 AM   #11
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Hey folks,

Nice Thread.

Chuck - Gedanate is just sweet from my experience with judoka as well, especially if one maintains posture to avoid being held onto as the judoka gets launched Did one this week at a seminar I did in Canada.

When not playing under pure Judo rules, a nice setup for a kotegaeshi works extremely well just as the judoka is about to grasp your gi All they know is they tried for a kuzushi and the next thing they see is ceiling Timing is everything.

Shomen ate works best for me when I can get the judoka's chin/head extended backward (body locked out with arms extended as they grab my gi) just before a very deep and sinking irimi. Again, keeping posture and sinking weight is important to not get taken to the floor - they just snap off as the weight of their own falling body breaks their grip on the gi as your back stays perfectly straight.

Like Peter says though, timing is KEY to all of this.

Just my 2 cents.

Arigato Gozaimashita

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2003, 09:10 AM   #12
L. Camejo
 
L. Camejo's Avatar
Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
Canada
Offline
Oh yeah, I forgot the strangle hold variants to aigamae ate (irimi nage) and gyakugamae ate (sokumen) as well.

Works equally well standing or in judo ne waza once you get in the right position.

Just a half cent to add to the others

Arigato

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2003, 10:45 AM   #13
Jesse Lee
Dojo: Tenzan Aikido, formerly named Seattle Aikikai
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 94
Offline
I have no judo experience but have been doing BJJ for a couple years. A little while ago I was rolling with a BJJ bluebelt, who is also a yudansha @ my aikido dojo. He did a great move: he let me grab his wrist cuff, and he pretend to try to flail my grip away, and when he brought his wrist up by his ear ... boom, he snapped on a nikkyo. Wow, did it surprise me! He says he loves doing this with non-aikidoka BJJ folks, since they instantly get freaked out by nikkyo. (O/c he never injures anyone.)

Another really cool aikido move that got me in BJJ, while rolling with another BJJ bluebelt who also outranks me in aikido: While on the ground, facing each other, he let me get a decent cross-collar grab. He reached across and put a light kote-gaishi grip on my hand, but he made it seem like he was just protecting from my choke. Then he spun inside, giving up his back, but kept that grip. And right as I went for his back, he dropped his weight and applied a big kote-gaishe to my wrist! It was cool.

, can't find m s
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2003, 03:03 PM   #14
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 524
Offline
Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I don't know what these techniques are: hikiotoshi, sumi-otoshi, Gedan-ate, wakigatame. We don't use these names for techniques in our Aikido school.
The names are the ones that Tomiki sensei used, if its any help, you could have a look at the Randori no Kata animations at the Shodokan homepage to relate the names to the techniques. (Theres some interesting commentary that relates some of the techniques to judo kata too.)
Quote:
Shomen ate would be sort of difficult to try because some people may simply not lean away from it and get hit in the face or you would have to look like you are practicing karate and stop the stike in front of them.
Heres a suggestion for a shomenate you could try without the fear of accidentally punching a big gnarly guy in the jaw: Lets say you're in a right posture, with your right hand on your partners collar. Move your right hand into position for shomenate, so that its already in contact, and your arm is bent. Drop down onto your left knee (not quite all the way to the mat) and turn your hips, keeping your hand there, so that the arm straightens (into a nice centred 'unbendable' arm), and then immediately come back up, maintaining the unbendable arm and channelling power from your hips to move your partner. Since you maintain contact with your hand the whole time, you're not going to 'strike' as such, but still deliver a lot of force, initially upwards, then backwards.

Sorry if the description isn't totally clear, its something my instructor does to great effect in randori.

If the timing is right, maybe you could feint with a slight tug on your partners collar as you drop down, and ideally he'll resist and give you an upward reaction to blend with as you come back up?

Sean

x
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2003, 04:39 PM   #15
Dross
 
Dross's Avatar
Dojo: Goleta Cultural School
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 22
Offline
My sempai and I often go the other way, throwing Judo into our Aikido Randori. It makes it pretty interesting, but you have to make sure your partner(s) have their ukemi down cold.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2003, 07:42 PM   #16
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,021
Japan
Offline
Thank you Sean - you saved me some typing. I found that the slight tug you mentioned doesn't have to be that subtle but is very necessary. Most Judo players have good posture very tough to break. It's what I meant by the wave action. Pull toward you, drop down a little bit and put him upwards and backwards and yes you should have a grip on his gi with your leading hand.

The other hand to the small of the back helps also.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2003, 01:01 AM   #17
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido in Judo Randori

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
I am going to try some Aikido during Judo randori over the next few weeks. So far I have use an Aikido sacrifice throw and iriminage successfully.
I'd be very curious to see how this turns out for you! And I'm impressed that you got irimi nage to work. Could you write a little more on that encounter?

Just remember to tell them before hand that you'd like to mix in a little aikido. An angry judoka looking to hurt you is not the best way to prolong your life expectancy ;-)

I'd like to know how well Nikyo and sankyo work against grips. And shionage.

Please do post the full report ;-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2003, 01:53 PM   #18
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 600
Offline
I got the short version of iriminage to work where you pull down and back on uke's shoulders to get him to fall backwards. It worked when my partner was shooting in for my legs, with irimi I got behind him and dropped him when he tried to turn and face again. The sacrice throw worked nicely because my partner was stiff arming me and pushing me forward, I dropped to the ground while pulling him over me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2003, 07:31 AM   #19
Kensai
Location: South West UK
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 216
Offline
Although I find it very hard applying any Judo in Judo randori at the moment, there has been one instance where I have mananged to use a kokyu nage.

Once they have taken the standard grip, cut back bringing their weight forward grab the bottom of their right arm with your left hand, pulling them more onto you, then turn in looking in the direction of your partner then do down on one knee and extend though with your free right arm putting more pressure on their right arm and pull in with your left.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2003, 01:48 AM   #20
bob_stra
Location: Australia
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 641
Australia
Offline
Quote:
Chris Gee (Kensai) wrote:
Although I find it very hard applying any Judo in Judo randori at the moment, there has been one instance where I have mananged to use a kokyu nage.
I thought kokyo nage was another name for hip throws (eg: judo's "goshi" series). Google informs me otherwise.

What your describing sounds like this

http://www.aikidocentrum-utrecht.aik...kokyu-nage.png

Kudos! I thought that move would *never* work ;-)

PS: Ditto abt having a hard time applying judo in judo randori ;-)
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2003, 03:42 AM   #21
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Francisco CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 507
Offline
Re: Re: Aikido in Judo Randori

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
I'd like to know how well Nikyo and sankyo work against grips.
Yeah, me too!
Especially nikkyo. I was watching some judo matches on tape, and I noticed that everybody starts out by coming in to quickly grab gi at both shoulders. It is like this is the generic beginning. The thing is, from my simple non-judo point of view, it looks like this is just begging for a nikkyo!

One of the simplest aikido techniques that I know is nikkyo urawaza from shoulder grabs (one shoulder, or in this case, both shoulders). Just grab the hand that grabs your shoulder, and then it is just 2 quick hip movements and you have a strong nikkyo.

What do you think? Or is nikkyo illegal in judo?
--JW
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2003, 05:30 AM   #22
Kensai
Location: South West UK
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 216
Offline
bob_stra,

The pic is nothing like what I was trying to discribe.

But the enterance looks a bit like O Goshi. But instead of putting your right arm around the waist and going for the hip throw, you bring the right te gatana to there right arm (which you have controled with a Gi grip with the left), then droping to on knee and turning to face the same direction as uke, bringing all your weight onto the one arm, so they either do a forward Aikido-like Mae Ukemi, or a hard Judo like Ushiro breakfall, which is more likely. Sorry I cant discribe it any better.

JW

You have to be careful with wrist locks in Judo Randori. There are only a few allowed standing arm locks, I am not sure whether wrist locks are permitted.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2003, 07:17 AM   #23
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Quote:
Or is nikkyo illegal in judo?
I seem to remember the judo guys I know telling me wrist locks were illegal in sport judo. Of course they also went on to tell me that nothing is illegal if the ref doesn't see it One of the guys studied with us for a little over a year and he is always using small things he learned in aikido. Especially the elbow controls we do. I know that in a few occasions he's gotten his opponent to tap out by using a sneaky wrist technique while grappling on the ground. He keeps telling the other judo guys to give it a chance but they won't.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2003, 07:46 AM   #24
Fiona D
Location: Ottawa
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 50
Offline
Chris,

What you're describing sounds a bit like the Judo/JiuJitsu throw 'Uki Otoshi' ('floating drop') to me. I was trying to visualise your description and that's what came to mind.

I remember when I saw my first kokyunage in Aikido and it reminded me strongly of Uki Otoshi. Hope that helps!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2003, 08:31 AM   #25
Kensai
Location: South West UK
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 216
Offline
Fiona thats more or less it. Just looked it up in "Kodokan Judo". Instead of keeping the laple grip and pushing, you cut down onto their arm and kneel.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward Red Beetle General 358 10-10-2006 11:43 AM
aikido and competition ewodaj General 129 08-10-2006 10:43 AM
Philippine ranking and other stories aries admin General 27 06-27-2006 04:27 AM
Aikido against judo keane General 46 11-25-2005 11:27 PM
Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists PeterR General 242 06-10-2005 11:13 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:50 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate