Train In Ki And Why [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

chadsieger

05-28-2002, 09:45 PM

I'm am by no means an expert on ki. I have tasted a drop, but it springs from ocean I probably will never fully see. I can say for certain however that ki has these few attributes, firstly, ki comes in many forms (i.e. unbendable arm, the way that animals instinctively move), next, you need to utilize ki to correctly use Aikido or any other martial art correctly/most effectively (although Aikido and Tai Chi stress its importance the most), third, proper ki usage is attainable by anyone simply with effort, time, and direction, and finally, although ki is mysteriously vague, you know it when you see it.

If someone grabs you with two hands on one single hand of yours (morotote dori), and let's assume, as we should always assume in Aikido, that that person is stronger than you. You must escape without atemi, (your free hand is tied/occupied/damaged). You will be unable to use your muscle. If you have a well developed ki, escaping won't be a problem. He will find it difficult to hold on. And you will be able to throw him instantly. Remember he is the aggressor, simply take his ki!

The single best way to improve one's martial skill, whether its in dojo, in the ring, or surrounded in an ally, is to simply spend five minutes a day improving their ki/chi. Unfortunately, ki is very vague and ambiguous, so it can't ever be truly conveyed in words, written or spoken.One of the ways in which ki can be felt is though proper use of body mechanics. There are other ways for it to be experienced. It is certainly not "hogwash." And whether you believe me or not, improving one's ki is the single best way to improve one's martial ability. If a technique can be done slowly, smoothly, and constantly stable, when it needs to be done
fast, it cannot be stopped.
Arm locks, wrist locks, "arm bars," or any other type of mechanical submission, while probably proving a godsend if your unfortunate opponent knows nothing of the martial arts, would only be cumbersome and in many cases (as in if attempted on my Sensei/sempai) would be worthless. Kotegaeshi, Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, and even Gokyo are among the "locks" that Ueshiba elected to train Aikido with. Although these techniques do have mechanical properties that make them quite dangerous (other martial arts sometimes train with some of these, although they often keep them mechanical), their true value is revealed when you create a connection between your center and your opponents through the technique. If a kotegaeshi is applied slowly enough, one will feel a threshold where the opponents center/ki is captured. He/she will be unable to move at all, much less attempt to apply some BJJ move or whatever. Sankyo might be the best "hold" to feel this connection on. Essentially, if the opponent can escape from a static sankyo, it is not applied correctly or should I say with the correct intention. Eventually the sensitivity develops (if done correctly, it can take less than a year to begin to feel the effects), and you become accustomed to feeling others centers/ki fields immediately. My Sensei's ki has developed to a point that, when one comes into physical contact with my Sensei, one is immediately off balance. Unless of course, your ki were stronger than his. In that case, we would probably pack up shop and follow you!
Regardless, no locks work against him, unless of course, as I had previously stated, you have a better ki. It's a sliding scale however. I cant apply anything to anyone in my dojo with a greater ki, unless they want me to. Which is good, because them letting me succeed little by little builds my ki!
I will say this though, in my experience most Aikido dojos do NOT practice Aikido correctly. We had a Sensei from a nearby dojo, come to train. The first time he grabbed me katate dori (one hand on one hand) I instantly knew that his ten years training had been an almost complete waste in terms of budo. Had I chosen I could have thrown him easily, and in any manner that I felt. His ki field was hallow. We had a two-month white belt, who although did not have the sensitivity to tell, had greater ki as well.
If your Sensei sounds like the one last mentioned, dont worry. It is never to late to develop one's ki. Never muscle through another technique again.

Thanks for reading.
Chad

Chris Li

05-28-2002, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by chadsieger
My Sensei's ki has developed to a point that, when one comes into physical contact with my Sensei, one is immediately off balance. Unless of course, your ki were stronger than his. In that case, we would probably pack up shop and follow you!

I'll be expecting a check for your membership fees. Don't forget now, or else I'll have to extend my ki field.

Regardless, no locks work against him, unless of course, as I had previously stated, you have a better ki.

Well that's the difference, then. My keys always work in my locks - if they stick then a little WD-40 usually does the trick...

My, my, where's Dan Harden when you need him :) ?

Best,

Chris

chadsieger

05-28-2002, 11:57 PM

We dont charge fees. We teach for ourselves and others.

Thanks.

05-29-2002, 03:39 AM

Originally posted by Chris Li

My, my, where's Dan Harden when you need him :) ?

:D

Maybe if Jun creates a "Daito-ryu" or "Sword Arts" section...

Jim ashby

05-29-2002, 03:54 AM

Didn't we have a thread about Ki balls..... or was it just Ki balls?
Have fun.

PeterR

05-29-2002, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by chadsieger
The first time he grabbed me katate dori (one hand on one hand) I instantly knew that his ten years training had been an almost complete waste in terms of budo. Had I chosen I could have thrown him easily, and in any manner that I felt. His ki field was hallow. We had a two-month white belt, who although did not have the sensitivity to tell, had greater ki as well.
OK - sometimes new posters are just too easy. Chad - why don't you introduce yourself, how long have you practiced, who is your sensei, what affiliation. Right now all we have to go on is something that comes across as "only me and my sensei have the answer to all the world". Basically I have heard stuff like that before and it usually covers up a serious shortcoming in Aikido. What is your definition of Budo?

Greg Jennings

05-29-2002, 06:25 AM

Chad,

How about emptying your glass? Create an open mind and ask the other members' opinions?

Did you know that there is a person that regularly posts here that has been training, like, 50 years? What about his thoughts?

Did you know that several people that have responded to your posts speak Japanese and/or have spent long periods of time in Japan and could give you the "inside scoop"?

A fellow with a PhD in Biochemistry responded to one of your posts? What about his opinion about "ki". Surely his would be interesting.

Did you know that this has been discussed ad naseaum on a recent thread? You could have been referred to it.

Sincerely,

aiki_what

05-29-2002, 06:39 AM

I once had someone chastise me because my ki was going in the wrong direction to do a throw.......so I smacked him in the cojones lightly and while he attempted to regather his ki I executed a beautiful Kaiten-nage.

Greg Jennings

05-29-2002, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by aiki_what
I once had someone chastise me because my ki was going in the wrong direction to do a throw.......so I smacked him in the cojones lightly and while he attempted to regather his ki I executed a beautiful Kaiten-nage.

In that context, I've heard people use "ki" to mean "momentum" or "the natural path things are headed in".

In that sense, one could certainly have one's "ki" headed in the "wrong" direction(assuming one's goal is to utilize his partner's momentum to execute the technique).

Best Regards,

SeiserL

05-29-2002, 09:05 AM

We are taught that "ki" comes throught proper execution of the technqiue and training. IMHO, my Sensei certainly has it, you can feel it. Sensei Phong was the 5' 6th dan that demonstrated recently at the Aiki Expo and is featured in the July 2002 Black Belt Magazine. Since I train in an Aikikai style, I have been taught more about technical proficiency that extension of ki.

To the best of my understanding, what I do note is that the proper alignment (everything pointing in the same direction), following the natural momentum of the waza, staying relaxed, breathing, and projecting my intent (visualization of the waza continuing) seems to be what I feel. Its like taking all the kinks out of the hose before you try to run the water through it. I know that this is a sumplictic non-mystical description of Ki which does it a real disservice. I guess the Ki that can be described is not the real Ki.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

chadsieger

05-29-2002, 10:10 AM

I'm posting for no other reason than to help those begining on their martial arts quest. I'm not particulary interested in thread ratings, "experts" from Japan, or any other Aikidoka who spend any amount of time griping. Disagree is fine. Disagree with a comment is better. Order me as if I am a newbie, worse.
If the information I present has been discussed on another thread, I am sorry. But then since it must have value, discussing it again will be beneficial.
Momentum is one of the manifests of ki. You can eventually feel an attacker's power coming at you. Simply blend with the ki until you get the opponents center/ki. (To test this, if a kotegaeshi is applied slowly enough, one will feel a threshold where the opponents center/ki is captured. He/she will be unable to move at all.)
Build that feeling add extentsion, softness, circles, and sensitivity and you've learned yourself some martial arts!

tedehara

05-29-2002, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by aiki_what
I once had someone chastise me because my ki was going in the wrong direction to do a throw.......so I smacked him in the cojones lightly and while he attempted to regather his ki I executed a beautiful Kaiten-nage.
Just because someone falls down, it doesn't mean the technique was done correctly. Atemi has often been used to cover up poor execution. :(

tedehara

05-29-2002, 01:31 PM

Hi Chad,

Most people study Aikido in the traditional manner. This means the techniques are learned physically. Through training you can learn to transcend the physical confrontation and lead your partner's intent or ki.

Traditional training also means little, if any, discussion is given to ki or ki development. This parallels traditional Chinese Tai Chi practice, where the teacher says little or nothing about Chi/Qi.

When Koichi Tohei formed the Ki Society, he deliberately emphasized ki development. In contrast, Aikikai emphasized the martial traditions of O Sensei. This split from Aikikai was tramatic. There are still intense feelings that I don't see ending soon.

Just thought you might like to know why there are so many ruffled feathers, when you write about ki. ;)

kironin

05-29-2002, 04:01 PM

Hi Chad,

I may have met your teacher and if so you are fortunate. It does sound like you have a good training environment to learn in. If you are trying to reach beginners about the importance of ki training from the beginning probably a not quite so ernest post would leave a better impression.

Having been around a bit (most recently at the Aiki Expo), I can sympathize with what you are saying. It does say something about that other teacher that he was visiting your dojo. Was he looking for something ? Did you help him (or your Sensei) find it. I could imagine that if his visit helped him to catch on to what was missing that all those years of physical practice would not be a waste. It's only a waste if he never sees what's missing. Too many around like that not even willing to look.

Some may not care for what you say for historical reasons and others may simply have trouble relating to what you are saying simply because their training methodology is so different. Some may be adverse to the use of the K- word but end up using many of the some tools with different labels. It doesn't really matter. The rare gems out there that really do get what Ki is about and are able to effectively teach the rest of us aren't posting to this list.

Craig
Houston Ki Society

guest1234

05-29-2002, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by chadsieger
I'm posting for no other reason than to help those begining on their martial arts quest. I'm not particulary interested in thread ratings, "experts" from Japan, or any other Aikidoka who spend any amount of time griping. Disagree is fine. Disagree with a comment is better. Order me as if I am a newbie, worse.
If the information I present has been discussed on another thread, I am sorry. But then since it must have value, discussing it again will be beneficial.
Momentum is one of the manifests of ki. You can eventually feel an attacker's power coming at you. Simply blend with the ki until you get the opponents center/ki. (To test this, if a kotegaeshi is applied slowly enough, one will feel a threshold where the opponents center/ki is captured. He/she will be unable to move at all.)
Build that feeling add extentsion, softness, circles, and sensitivity and you've learned yourself some martial arts!

At first I thought my 'ignore' filter was broken:eek: ! Then I realized there were neither pressure point nor turtle references:rolleyes: Whew, what a relief...

PeterR

05-29-2002, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by chadsieger
Order me as if I am a newbie, worse.
A bit of background would be nice. Are we dealing with a 5th kyu Shihan, a Shodan who has bought into one system only, or someone with serious Aikido time who happens not to do particularily well on electronic forums.

So far all we have is someone accusing others of having full cups when apparently yours is spilling over.

If by the way you are not interested in opinions - how can you expect others to be interested in yours.

chadsieger

05-29-2002, 11:54 PM

Firstly, I don't mean to offend anyone. My intention is not to preach or talk down to anyone. The purpose of my posts are simply to advise those just begining their martial arts journey, those who are dissatisfied with or just looking for more from their training, or those who simply are getting on in years and are looking for a way to make those old techniques still work now that the body is not so willing. If you have already decide not to persue the ki aspect of martial arts, than I am sorry and that is your decision. If you are still undecided as to its existence and purpose/usefulness in martial arts and especially Aikido, please feel free to read my posts.
I don't care about organizations, I don't care about history or pride. I don't care about belts, I don't care about rankings. Aikido and martial arts in general hold so many more rewards. Go through my posts looking for what you can use, not what to pick at. That's Aikido!
Mr. Hocker, the visiting sensei was interestingly enough looking for new students at his local dojo. My sensei does not charge to train (novel eh?). Needless to say, he has not come back, nor did any or our students leave. If I see him again, I'll suggest for him to train with us.

chadsieger

05-29-2002, 11:57 PM

If anyone is interested, I have posted a brief explanation of ki usage in Aikido.

Thanks for reading!

chadsieger

05-29-2002, 11:58 PM

LOL. It's in GENERAL!

PeterR

05-30-2002, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by chadsieger
I don't care about organizations, I don't care about history or pride. I don't care about belts, I don't care about rankings. Aikido and martial arts in general hold so many more rewards.
I only ask so that some context can be provided. On these forums we have people ranging from only thinking about joining a dojo to those with a serious number of years under their belt - each and everyone provides their opinion. How far along the journey are you? It really is hard to determine that from your posts - at the moment I have you pegged as a hyper-enthusiastic beginner - please correct me if I'm wrong. Let me be clear, it's not the view of Ki that is causing the reaction it's the style. Craig Hocker for example is firmly entrenched in the Ki camp, he is listened to and debated with - no problems. He is also a known entity.

Organization: this forum is all about breaking down false barriers - still it provides context.

History: Can't dismiss that - it's where everything springs from. We are not re-inventing Aikido.

Belts/ranking/pride - doesn't seem to matter too much here. Criteria vary too broadly for it to mean much.

And gee - when I taught I took no money either. It's not that uncommon.

erikmenzel

05-30-2002, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by chadsieger
Firstly, I don't mean to offend anyone. My intention is not to preach or talk down to anyone.

Yet you seem to do so :confused:

The purpose of my posts are simply to advise those just begining their martial arts journey, those who are dissatisfied with or just looking for more from their training, or those who simply are getting on in years and are looking for a way to make those old techniques still work now that the body is not so willing. If you have already decide not to persue the ki aspect of martial arts, than I am sorry and that is your decision. If you are still undecided as to its existence and purpose/usefulness in martial arts and especially Aikido, please feel free to read my posts.

Maybe using a more friendly and open style of writing instead of seemingly ranting about "How you or your teacher are right and the rest of the world does not have a clue about Ki, Aikido, Budo or the meaning of life, the universe and everthing else.

I don't care about organizations

Fair enough, but don't use that as another reason for the proof of your rightousness.

I don't care about history

:confused:

or pride.

Sofar everything you wrote seemed to be very pride orientated. :freaky:

I don't care about belts, I don't care about rankings.
Aikido and martial arts in general hold so many more rewards. Go through my posts looking for what you can use, not what to pick at. That's Aikido!

Why does everyone who seems to be "spreading the holy word" always complain that they are picked on??
Do the feeling of righteousness, the superiority complex and paranoia go hand in hand?

Mr. Hocker, the visiting sensei was interestingly enough looking for new students at his local dojo.

Sad, but a simple reflection of the true world.

My sensei does not charge to train (novel eh?).

Not really uncommon or unheard of. You claiming it to be special suggest you havent seen much of the real world yet.

Needless to say, he has not come back, nor did any or our students leave. If I see him again, I'll suggest for him to train with us.

This is just another way of saying your right ad we are wrong. Just another way of saying you know best. Just another way of saying your sensei is better than mine (or something similar).

Frankly looking at your post I think I find them annoying and arrogant. Somehow they touch exactly that point in the forum that is to provock lots of responses.

Therefor I will now point my finger at you and shout "TROLL ,BEWARE THERE IS A TROLL IN THE WOODS"

Chris Li

05-30-2002, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by chadsieger
If you have already decide not to persue the ki aspect of martial arts, than I am sorry and that is your decision. If you are still undecided as to its existence and purpose/usefulness in martial arts and especially Aikido, please feel free to read my posts.

Hmm, first you'll have to define what you mean by the word, since, in my experience, most arguments start by centering around people arguing for (and against) different definitions.

My sensei does not charge to train (novel eh?).

I've been actually paid for teaching exactly once, but that was more than 10 years ago, and was for a month long intensive training session (maybe some people can afford to take a month's vacation to teach, but not me...).

At two of the dojo that I train at currently, one dojo with two Aikikai 7th dans and one dojo with 3 shihans from assorted Aikido styles, nobody gets paid that I know of. The third dojo that I go to the instructor is actually paid and the fees are a little higher, but that's how he makes his living, so I don't begrudge him the money (he isn't rich, I've spent time at his house). At both of the dojo that I trained at in the US before I came back to Japan this time the instructors actually ran in the red some times because they ended up subsidizing things like the Christmas parties - so it's really not a very unusual thing.

OTOH, Morihei Ueshiba made his living off of Aikido for years, and so did (and does) Koichi Tohei, Gozo Shioda and many others, including Sokaku Takeda. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned - everybody's got to eat, right?

Best,

Chris

aiki_what

05-30-2002, 07:04 AM

"Just because someone falls down, it doesn't mean the technique was done correctly. Atemi has often been used to cover up poor execution. "

Actually you missed my subtle point....rather than working with the technique uke decided to lecture me on where my "Ki" was directed. I simply distracted his "Intent" (or Ki or whatever you want to call it) and directed my energy into the throw.

As to the atemi comment, I suppose if one practices Aikido as a dance practice where uke and nage work cooperatively to perfect their "execution" this might be relevant. But I would contend from a martial viewpoint that failure to deliver atemi would consitute poor execution.

tedehara

05-30-2002, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by aiki_what
"Just because someone falls down, it doesn't mean the technique was done correctly. Atemi has often been used to cover up poor execution. "

Actually you missed my subtle point....rather than working with the technique uke decided to lecture me on where my "Ki" was directed. I simply distracted his "Intent" (or Ki or whatever you want to call it) and directed my energy into the throw.

As to the atemi comment, I suppose if one practices Aikido as a dance practice where uke and nage work cooperatively to perfect their "execution" this might be relevant. But I would contend from a martial viewpoint that failure to deliver atemi would consitute poor execution.
If someone made that comment to me, I would probably stop the technique and ask them to explain themselves. After listening to them, I'd have to decide if they're correct or mistaken. I've always been intensely interested in my mistakes. Perhaps that's just me.

As for doing atemi, I'm not against using it. However, how can anyone say they can do a technique, when uke is already falling down because of a strong atemi? As an experiment, try doing a technique without atemi, then do it with an atemi. Sometimes there is a real difference.

aiki_what

05-30-2002, 09:05 AM

"If someone made that comment to me, I would probably stop the technique and ask them to explain themselves. After listening to them, I'd have to decide if they're correct or mistaken. I've always been intensely interested in my mistakes. Perhaps that's just me.

As for doing atemi, I'm not against using it. However, how can anyone say they can do a technique, when uke is already falling down because of a strong atemi? As an experiment, try doing a technique without atemi, then do it with an atemi. Sometimes there is a real difference."

Ted,

Good points. I usually like to examine my mistakes "after" a technique (It drives me crazy to stop in the middle). Even though the way we practice usually deals with a pre-determined outcome I feel the intent during the technique should be one of constant adjustment.

As to the question of atemi, isn't all techinque after the initial disruption/blending of balance/ki/flow just icing on the cake independent of whatever it is you use to take charge of the momentum?

The technique is just the stuff that happens after you have either blended and/or established an advantage.

chadsieger

05-30-2002, 09:37 AM

Firstly, I havent said that anyone was doing anything wrong anywhere! I simply laid out a platform for someone interested in ki and the martial arts to follow. If you dont wish to, so be it. How can anyone have a problem with that?
In my opinion the uke's responsibility to hold the nage in place and force the nage to use softness/ki/natural energy to escape , without atemi. That way, making it harder, the nage gets better each time.
If you don't charge to teach, that is good. That's all I was saying.
Lastly, to the gentleman worried about listening to a white belt. It is true that most of the words and concepts that I explain were NOT invented by me. I mearly mimic and add. Judge the material.

Thanks for reading!

Look for what you can USE, not what you can pick at.

Andy

05-30-2002, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by chadsieger
Lastly, to the gentleman worried about listening to a white belt. It is true that most of the words and concepts that I explain were NOT invented by me. I mearly mimic and add. Judge the material.

Right. So you're just regurgitating with nothing original to add yourself.

Yet another 5th kyu shihan.

chadsieger

05-30-2002, 12:01 PM

I'm sorry, did I attack you Andy? No? Then why would you waste time attcking me? Is this not an AIKIDO website?

Andy

05-30-2002, 12:11 PM

If you don't like people disagreeing with you, why post on a discussion board? Just because it's an aikido website doesn't mean what you write won't be challenged.

As for the way I write, I enjoy atemi. Didn't O-sensei say something like "aikido is 90% atemi"?

chadsieger

05-30-2002, 12:14 PM

Discussion is fine.
Insult is not.

Bronson

05-30-2002, 12:31 PM

Hello Chad,

First off let me start by saying that I am firmly rooted in the Ki camp of aikido. Second let me say that I also agree with many of the posters here when they say it's not the content of your posts that we find so disagreeable, it's the tone.

Let me put it a little differently. I recently had a new student show up to my class. He practiced the same style but at a different dojo. As everyone knows even withing styles things happen differently from dojo to dojo. Instead of hanging back and seeing how we did it and making the effort to fit in he just went about doing things his way and ended up making a small spectacle of himself. We haven't seen him again.

What I'm saying is that the forums are just like a dojo. All are welcome, but it's the new persons job to fit into the dynamic that's already there. Anyone who makes an honest effort, even if they occasionally fail, are welcomed with open arms. Anyone who doesn't make that effort will eventually begin to feel like an outsider and leave.

The prevailing feeling (as I read it) about your posts ISN'T the content. It's that you're not making the effort to follow the established etiquette, and traditions of this little online dojo.

Just my thought,
Bronson

chadsieger

05-30-2002, 02:11 PM

I guess the the disharmony between myself and seemingly everyone on my posts is simply due to the fact that I did not properly acclimate myself to the style of communication that already exists. Proper steps should have been taken on my part to prepare each statement I made to not offend anyone. However, I'm not trying to join a community. I figured that people interested in ki would open my posts. Instead, people who didnt believe in ki picked through them and accused me of being "preachy."
My posts are for those who are newly interested in persuing martial arts, those of physically weak stature, those with a handicap, those who are looking for more from the martial arts than pain and tired muscles, or those getting older who wish to continue the martial arts indeffinately.
If you dont agree, I'm sorry, I hope we can still be friends.

Thanks.

Andy

05-30-2002, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by chadsieger
Discussion is fine.
Insult is not.
So, are you telling us now that you're not 5th kyu?

Tell us. Have you trained for more than a year in aikido? How many dojo have you trained at? How many shihan in different organizations have you trained with?
I figured that people interested in ki would open my posts. Instead, people who didnt believe in ki picked through them and accused me of being "preachy."
Perhaps if you stopped assuming. As they say about one who assumes: ass-u-me.

kironin

05-30-2002, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by chadsieger

Mr. Hocker, the visiting sensei was interestingly enough looking for new students at his local dojo. My sensei does not charge to train (novel eh?). Needless to say, he has not come back, nor did any or our students leave. If I see him again, I'll suggest for him to train with us.

If that's true, then he's a fool and not a good example of your point. He understands very little about human nature and couldn't be much of a teacher anyway.

Craig
Houston Ki Society

kironin

05-30-2002, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by aiki_what

As to the question of atemi, isn't all techinque after the initial disruption/blending of balance/ki/flow just icing on the cake independent of whatever it is you use to take charge of the momentum?

The technique is just the stuff that happens after you have either blended and/or established an advantage.

Good points!

you seem to be broadening your definition of atemi beyond the one your original post suggested.

maybe you need to define what you mean by atemi.

for some of us,
extending ki can become a form of atemi

Craig
Houston Ki Society

Jim23

05-30-2002, 03:50 PM

Chad,

When I first posted here, I was also quite opinionated (still am), quite direct (still am), and I annoyed and offended many people (still do). Actually, I was mainly having fun (still am), but it didn't come across that way. My recommendation to you is to start using those smiley faces more often - it's amazing what a smile can accomplish! :D

All this bickering makes me feel like I'm listening in on a bad aikido sitcom (hate sitcoms). You and many people here seem to have the answers to the aikido universe. I always question people who act like they are experts, even if they claim that they aren't. There's an expression that I like: "long of tongue, short of brain".

Sometimes I think the best advice I've seen here was from Greg (with the type-A-ikido personality), "shut up and train". Please take it the wrong way. ;)

Jim23

tedehara

05-30-2002, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by aiki_what
...As to the question of atemi, isn't all techinque after the initial disruption/blending of balance/ki/flow just icing on the cake independent of whatever it is you use to take charge of the momentum?

The technique is just the stuff that happens after you have either blended and/or established an advantage.
You're correct, if you look at this holistically. What I usually do is try and break down the technique into components. Therefore, if I atemi and then perform a sankyo, I have two components: Atemi and Sankyo. I examine both components to see how they work individually. Then I try and put them back together in the actual technique. So my approach is more analysis and sythesis.

The one problem I've noticed is that you can lose the lead after initially gaining it. You might initially gain the lead/blend with your partner, but during the performance of the technique, the lead can be lost through in attention or technical mistakes. If you're working with someone who can notice this, they might be able to reverse the technique and counter. Why not? After all, they now have the lead/initiative. This is a primary reason why I'm leery of looking and practicing Aikido techniques as a holistic or single experience.

I know the majority of people practice Aikido as a total experience and don't go around breaking down techniques into components. When I visit other dojos, I'm always trying to analyze the instructor's demonstration, while everyone else has already chosen a partner and done a few throws. Oh well... :D

chadsieger

05-30-2002, 04:12 PM

I train and will train for life.
This was my first experiment with a message board. I dont care about the culture and refinement, that I should "get used to." It seems most people didnt even read my messages. They simply found the things that they dont like so they can complain. The one guys even went so far as to call me a troll. Oh well.
Even the well thought out replies took many things for granted. Jim and Bronson think that I believe that only my way is correct and so forth. I just posted what I believe to be true. Read my posts without preconcieved notions and this should all be settled. It probably will never end so...
I will continue to post. Read. Don't read. Think anything you want of me.

Craig here is a short piece on atemis I wrote:

Every single technique in Aikido requires a spiritual atemi. Every single technique in Aikido requires a ki atemi. And yes, some of the inside moves, which are therefore more dangerous, do in fact require a physical atemi. So, O'Sensei was correct when saying that certain techniques do require atemi. He did not say however, to use atemis to practice Aikido. The purpose
of training with Aikido techniques is to teach you the feeling of budo. "Learn and forget." Using atemis on the mat degrade the nourishment. Similar to frying food.
I'm not saying strikes have no place in budo. Quite to contrary. However, at O'Sensei's skill level his true budo strike would look far beyond our comprehension.
Regardless, learn Aikido, always use it in defense, and your ki will conquer alone.

Thanks for reading.

chadsieger

05-30-2002, 04:17 PM

When I say a spiritual Atemi, I simply mean, that he/she as the aggressor have by intiating an attack have created an "unnatural" situation. If you are also in the wrong, for whatever reason, it will be intrisically more difficult for you to conteract the disharmony. Your positive spiritual atemi is required. Should you respond with hate, the attacker now has a better reason to attack. If you maintain the spirtual calm that we all strive for, the attacker could theoretically be subdued by your lack of aggression.
A ki atemi is far more "physical." Everyone has a ki field, whether you belive in it or not. Developing ki, though no simple task, can be done by anyone with the proper relaxed mindstate. Hopefully, your ki is more developed than your attacker's, in which case techniques may not be necessary. Extend though the attacker, and strike them with your ki!
Atemi on the mat degrades the lesson. Don't muscle through techniques! Use ki for better results.

tedehara

05-30-2002, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Andy
...Didn't O-sensei say something like "aikido is 90% atemi"?
You are correct!
However I wouldn't take that quote too seriously. It seems that people misinterpet authorities like O Sensei. One of the main reasons is that modern people interpet things literally. Ancient people and I would put O Sensei in this category because of his psychology, were not literal but poetic.

Perhaps a commentary could be like: Aikido is the spirit of atemi. You are doing something completely. You are not passively waiting for something to happen.

After all, if you literally believed Aikido is 90% atemi, then what is the other 10%? Why didn't O Sensei mention that also? ;)

akiy

05-30-2002, 04:32 PM

Hi Chad,

Originally posted by chadsieger
This was my first experiment with a message board. I dont care about the culture and refinement, that I should "get used to."

I don't have a section on netiquette here on AikiWeb, but, if I can say so, you (as well as everyone else here) might want to go read the one I wrote for the Aikido-L mailing list a while back:

http://www.aikido-l.org/netiquette/

In my opinion, you should care about how the community here works. If you're not here to share what you're presenting (and sharing, in my mind, involves a give and take), please take a moment to reconsider what you wish to accomplish with your posts.

I created these forums for people to share their thoughts and experiences. As such, you should expect people with dissenting thoughts and experiences to speak their mind as well. Just as you have the "right" to write and express your opinions, so do they.

In closing this part of my post, I just wanted everyone to remember the first rule of these Forums (listed right there under where you compose your post) is, "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect."
So, O'Sensei was correct when saying that certain techniques do require atemi. He did not say however, to use atemis to practice Aikido. The purpose
of training with Aikido techniques is to teach you the feeling of budo. "Learn and forget." Using atemis on the mat degrade the nourishment. Similar to frying food.
I'm not saying strikes have no place in budo. Quite to contrary. However, at O'Sensei's skill level his true budo strike would look far beyond our comprehension.
To stay on topic here, I wrote the following back in 1999 about Morihei Ueshiba sensei's book, "Budo Renshu" (which loosely translates to "budo training/practice"), one of the only books that the founder wrote himself on training in aikido:

I borrowed this book (nicely bound, Japanese edition) a while back and found it quite interesting. I wish I could afford a copy. I think we had a discussion of it a while back whether O-sensei ever used atemi in his aikido; Lisa was nice enough to fax me pages from "Budo Renshu" and it's just full of things like "strike your opponent forcefully in the face with your fist" accompanied by O-sensei putting a fist in his uke's face. Neat stuff.

Hope that helps.

-- Jun

kironin

05-30-2002, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by chadsieger
I guess the the disharmony between myself and seemingly everyone on my posts is simply due to the fact that I did not properly acclimate myself to the style of communication that already exists. Proper steps should have been taken on my part to prepare each statement I made to not offend anyone. However, I'm not trying to join a community. I figured that people interested in ki would open my posts. Instead, people who didnt believe in ki picked through them and accused me of being "preachy."
...

These lists are about communication, but the usual expectation is that it will be a two-way communication. If you look at what you have written, would you be comfortable walking into a room of strangers at an aikido dojo and start saying the same things verbatim out loud ? How many new students in the croud would you think would be immediately swayed by the statements you have made ? People interested in ki can read books or surf the web or post questions to this list (that you can happily answer) or ,heaven forbid, actually visit schools. There is a lot already out there.

Rather than immediately jump on a soap box, as you give the appearance of wanting to do here,
you would probably do more good to your cause by just hanging out, chill, and answer specific posts by beginners about ki in a thoughtful manner. Those posts would hang around and be readily available to future beginners too.
It takes patience to do that, however, and a calm mind when others disagree.

Craig
Houston Ki Society

akiy

05-30-2002, 04:49 PM

Hi Ted,

Originally posted by tedehara

You're correct, if you look at this holistically. What I usually do is try and break down the technique into components. Therefore, if I atemi and then perform a sankyo, I have two components: Atemi and Sankyo. I examine both components to see how they work individually. Then I try and put them back together in the actual technique. So my approach is more analysis and sythesis.
Interesting! I find myself looking through techniques (both empty-handed and weapons) thinking, "Now, how does this work?" at each step. It's kind of like looking at the notes and the spaces in between the notes if we were talking about music, I guess...

The one problem I've noticed is that you can lose the lead after initially gaining it. You might initially gain the lead/blend with your partner, but during the performance of the technique, the lead can be lost through in attention or technical mistakes. If you're working with someone who can notice this, they might be able to reverse the technique and counter. Why not? After all, they now have the lead/initiative.
I think this kind of practice where each side recognizes the opportunity to take the initiative (sente) is one of the most interesting. As Chuck Clark has said before, it's a lot like playing chess...

I've noticed some people give me some quizzical looks when I "give" my balance as nage to uke, almost as though they think I'm "losing" or something. They often say, "Once again?" and offer another "try" at the technique in hand as though I didn't learn something from not getting my partner to fall down that time. I find such feedback of uke letting me know when I've given back the initiative, recognizing that I've given away the initiative, and accepting it to be very, very important, too.

-- Jun

aiki_what

05-31-2002, 11:21 AM

Craig said,

"for some of us,
extending ki can become a form of atemi "

What you define as ki I define as intent which is indeed a form of atemi. I am sure you have seen examples of shihan making subtle movements that impact uke's intent which are just as effective as atemi (so in reality the desired result is the end, you have impacted ukes' rhythm/balance/intent.)

Ted said,

"You're correct, if you look at this holistically. What I usually do is try and break down the technique into components. Therefore, if I atemi and then perform a sankyo, I have two components: Atemi and Sankyo. I examine both components to see how they work individually. Then I try and put them back together in the actual technique. So my approach is more analysis and sythesis.

The one problem I've noticed is that you can lose the lead after initially gaining it. You might initially gain the lead/blend with your partner, but during the performance of the technique, the lead can be lost through in attention or technical mistakes. If you're working with someone who can notice this, they might be able to reverse the technique and counter. Why not? After all, they now have the lead/initiative. This is a primary reason why I'm leery of looking and practicing Aikido techniques as a holistic or single experience. "

I agree to a point. We learn techniques component by component rather than holistically. However there is a danger in breaking down techniques. How we practice is how we will perform.....that is if you have learned the technique as Step 1 - Atemi, Step -2 Sankyo, there will always be an inherent pause in the way you perform the technique under pressure....giving uke an opening to re-direct/change the intent and regain the initiative. If I can direct my intent constantly throughout so that atemi (or intent to atemi) flows directly into technique you eliminate the opportunity for uke to find an opening. Actually the better way to think about it is " the atemi is the technique is the pin....all one flow.

tedehara

05-31-2002, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by akiy
...I think this kind of practice where each side recognizes the opportunity to take the initiative (sente) is one of the most interesting. As Chuck Clark has said before, it's a lot like playing chess...
-- Jun
When you analyze your technique, you'll find yourself gaining and losing the lead during the technique. However, I agree with Mark, in that the whole technique should be done in one smooth movement. A movement where you don't lose the lead at any point. I do think that you need analysis understand where you go wrong. Having a training partner who can notice your mistakes is also very helpful.

Just because you gain and lose the lead or initiative, doesn't mean performing a technique becomes like a chess game. In chess, all games would theoretically end up in a draw, since neither side starts with an advantage that could be converted into a win. What happens is that one side or both can steer the game into unclear positions, hoping to gain a winning advantage through sharp play.

So my interpetation of correctly done aikido technique translated into chess terms is that one side has a decisive advantage and utilizes correct procedure to a win! Of course, in practice things can turn out differently in both chess and aikido. :eek:

akiy

05-31-2002, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by tedehara

In chess, all games would theoretically end up in a draw, since neither side starts with an advantage that could be converted into a win.
Actually, white (who moves first) in chess does have an advantage as s/he has the initiative/sente. Of course, such an advantage is sliver thin for a game such as chess.

So my interpetation of correctly done aikido technique translated into chess terms is that one side has a decisive advantage and utilizes correct procedure to a win!
Mine would be that one side (nage) looks ahead four, five, or six "moves" ahead and makes sure that, each step of the way, the other side (uke) has no other alternative but to move in a certain manner -- kind of like getting rid of their alternatives before they really happen; that's why expert chess players can concede when there's still multiple moves they can make before getting checkmated. In aikido terms, this might mean that uke has no other movement except one -- that which nage "allows" him or her to do to keep "safe."

In aikido, though, I think this sort of look-ahead becomes a lot more intuitive than in chess (although my chess experience is pretty much nil...).

-- Jun

Bronson

05-31-2002, 10:30 PM

Jim and Bronson think that I believe that only my way is correct

Funny, I don't remember saying that :freaky:

That doesn't mean I didn't...I just don't remember :D

Bronson

erikmenzel

06-01-2002, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by tedehara
In chess, all games would theoretically end up in a draw, since neither side starts with an advantage that could be converted into a win.

Hmm, this is kind of an unfounded claim. Gametheorists are researching this for years already and the nature of the chessgame has not been determined yet (Meaning nobody has proven that in chess at optimal play of both parties it will always be white winning, black winning or be a draw.) So al what remains is just believe about the nature of the chess game.

tedehara

06-01-2002, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by erikknoops

Hmm, this is kind of an unfounded claim. Gametheorists are researching this for years already and the nature of the chessgame has not been determined yet (Meaning nobody has proven that in chess at optimal play of both parties it will always be white winning, black winning or be a draw.) So al what remains is just believe about the nature of the chess game.
At the start of the game, the only difference between the two sides is the fact that white moves first. This gives white an advantage of one tempi. It is generally considered that three tempi equals one pawn. A winning situation is generally considered to be up two pawns, since drawing chances are still great if there is only a one pawn advantage.

The ability to draw increases as skill gets better. There are several forcing lines in the openings that lead to draws. By forcing, I mean that if the other side deviates from recommended play the drawing player can then play for a win.

This is not a theory, this is an over-the-board principle that most tournament and match players always consider.

erikmenzel

06-01-2002, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by tedehara
At the start of the game, the only difference between the two sides is the fact that white moves first. This gives white an advantage of one tempi. It is generally considered that three tempi equals one pawn. A winning situation is generally considered to be up two pawns, since drawing chances are still great if there is only a one pawn advantage.

The ability to draw increases as skill gets better. There are several forcing lines in the openings that lead to draws. By forcing, I mean that if the other side deviates from recommended play the drawing player can then play for a win.

This is not a theory, this is an over-the-board principle that most tournament and match players always consider.

Still all statements over the nature and possibilties of the chess game are based on this over the board principle and other forms of common sense rules.
This does however not lift these statements above the level of unproven conjectures. Still no proof giving the nature of the chess game is known within gametheory!

efredeluces

06-09-2002, 06:10 PM

:p Hello ! I've read you posts and if its not a big trouble, do you have a list of advance ki exercises ? I mean exercises aside from the ones we practice in our dojo like ki breathing, unbendeable arms and the aiki taisu exercises.

Happy training ...

chadsieger

06-10-2002, 10:28 AM

Hello,

All of the drills that you have mentioned are excellent tools for delveoping one's ki. Let us define this type of ki so that everybody can follow. Their is a way for anyone to recondition their body/mind to move with the most effeciency/power. Aikido training is one of those ways.
We say that once a person can move in this fasion (one quick tip, keep your hands in your center, as if holding a bokken) with their mind and body as one, they now possess "good ki." There are other aspects of ki which have little obvious relation which we will not go into here.
To answer Mr. Fredeluces's question, Kokyo Doza and Push Hands (also done in Tai Chi) are probably my favorite drills for developing good ki feeling, except that you need two people. For extension try Ikkyo Undo or Funekogi Undo (I mix the two as part of my daily routine.)
Also, bokken and jo suburi (repeated steps ie. kata) help as well. They teach proper mai as well as proper body and hand positioning. Remember, the jo and bokken are extensions of YOUR HARA so always try to keep that in mind as you train. Practice with weapons will greatly improve your Aikido.
Of course you could always supplement your Aikido training with some Tai Chi. They go wonderfuly hand in hand.
Remeber developing ki is developing your body and mind together, always.

Thanks, hope this helps!