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guest1234567
11-09-2010, 02:21 AM
Ego: egotism; conceit; self-importance
When I am training I can feel the different characters of my ukes, if they are calm, relaxed, nervous, rigid,in a hurry or angry. There are a few guys who only like to train with high grades never with newbies, because with the last they cannot exhibit themselves. This is ego in the dojo.
Reading the threads in this forum and thinking about them I found also different personalities.Luckily many are so kind to find the information or just report an experience that might help the person who is posting. But I'm sorry to find some people who like to provoke or if they cannot answer in their own words just quote a famous phrase sometimes in another language, to exhibit themselves even if the person who is asking won't understand it. And finally I found a few who also like to show their great knowledge, these ones enjoy to write endless comments. They have the good intention to help, but don't think that if they put too much information, maybe they will annoy the person who is asking.

I 'd like to quote 3rd Doshu Moriteru Ueshiba Sensei, thanks Niall for your post in your blog..
One must, for example, maintain good Aikido posture and movement throughout the day. More important, however, is to maintain a modest attitude, and harmonize mind and body. In the realm of human relationships, one must avoid conflict and resolve problems in a harmonious Aikido fashion. In order to do this well, one must above all be modest and humble.
http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles/third_doshu/Moriteru_Ueshiba_Q_A_2.php

This is not a personal attack to anybody in this forum, I'm just writing my thoughts reading your posts ant threads as a new member.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-09-2010, 04:20 AM
Are you modest and humble?

niall
11-09-2010, 04:57 AM
Those are things that needed to be said, Carina.

Is it naive to expect aikidoka to have respect for each other and each other's points of view?

And the ai in aikido - why do so many people forget it when they are outside a dojo?

And Demetrio why are you trying to evade the questions? Ask yourself not somebody else.

Flintstone
11-09-2010, 05:31 AM
And the ai in aikido - why do so many people forget it when they are outside a dojo?
I believe the "ai" in "aikido" is inseparable from the "ki". I believe it's not ai-ki-do, but aiki-do.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-09-2010, 05:31 AM
Niall, I'm not evading Carina's questions. In fact there are any questions in her post.

Now, if you want me to question myself If I'm modest and humble, I've already done that. I don't consider myself nor modest nor humble, at least I try not to be one of those modest, humble ad egoless people cause, paraphrasing Spinoza, they are usually most ambitious and envious.

Like Nietzsche said, he that humbleth himself wishes to be exalted.

So, what the ones who are into this "one must above all be modest and humble" are really looking for?

Flintstone
11-09-2010, 05:36 AM
So, what the ones who are into this "one must above all be modest and humble" are really looking for?
Ahhh, your rhetorical way... You already replied yourself, of course. They want to be exalted as the most humble and modest. But you already knew that :D .

guest1234567
11-09-2010, 05:36 AM
Are you modest and humble?

I don't know Demetrio, that is a question for my companions in the dojo and my sensei.

niall
11-09-2010, 06:17 AM
Well it didn't take very long for the personal attacks to start.

Great I get to use the irony mark.

Alejandro your opinion about parsing aikido is yours. Interesting to know you don't believe in blending or harmony. And you've just shown you can't join a debate without making a personal attack.

Q.E.D. Which was Carina's point.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-09-2010, 06:22 AM
Carina, if they say you're modest and humble, you are. If they say you're not modest and humble, then you aren't.

You are defined by what others (the aikido group, but not your family, friends, coworkers, neightbors, etc) think about you, isn't it? Are you in a cult, maybe?

Niall, where is Alex personal attack? I don't see it.

niall
11-09-2010, 06:22 AM
Demetrio I don't mind if you ask yourself or not. But thank you for an honest answer. I wondered why you turned the subject back onto the original poster instead of addressing the point. Because that is avoiding the central debate.

Why in an aikido forum is there so much low level spitefulness and lack of respect.

[I just saw you edited your post to ask me about Alejandro's attack. Sorry Demetrio I thought it was clear. It was when he said that people who are into being modest and humble want to be exalted as the most humble and modest. So that is a personal attack on the OP for starting the thred, on me for joining the debate agreeing with her, nearly every aikido teacher I know and nearly every budo teacher I know.]

phitruong
11-09-2010, 06:29 AM
Well it didn't take very long for the personal attacks to start.

Great I get to use the irony mark.

Alejandro your opinion about parsing aikido is yours. Interesting to know you don't believe in blending or harmony. And you've just shown you can't join a debate without making a personal attack.

Q.E.D. Which was Carina's point.

didn't thought that was a personal attack, but then it might be. question though, without attack how can you do the so-called blending or harmony thing of aikido? without chaos, can you define order? without hate, can you define love? without, yin, do you understand yang? without death, what is life? without ego how can you eat breakfast? :)

Peter Goldsbury
11-09-2010, 06:36 AM
Despite the egoists and the trolls, I think this is an excellent forum. It is owned and managed by Jun Akiyama without any conditions for joining, except those four forum rules that appear whenever you write a post.

It is a large general forum which Jun manages on his own, without the help of any moderators. And there is room for all types of post.

I was once chastized by Kisshomaru Ueshiba for making adverse comments about the aikido of a famous shihan. Doshu gently told me that it was best that I note the differences between my aikido and his, without making any judgments, especially judgments in words.
Kisshomaru Doshu was exhibiting a certain kind of rhetoric, certainly not the adversarial rhetoric favoured by those following a Greek/Roman model.

Here is part of a discourse attributed to the Buddha:
"Speech that the Tathagata knows to be untrue, false, and useless, and also unpleasant and disagreeable to others, he does not speak; that which he knows to be true, real, and useful, but also unpleasant and disagreeable to others, in that case he knows the right time to express it. Speech that he knows to be untrue, false, and useless, but also pleasant and agreeable to others, he does not speak; that which is true, real, but useless, and also pleasant and agreeable to others, that, too, he does not speak; but that which is true, real, and useful, and also pleasant and agreeable to others, in that case he knows the right time to express it." (Edward Thomas, The Life of Buddha as Legend and History, 1975, pp. 136-137.)

The rhetoric that alluded to here has as an overriding principle the knowledge of when to speak (or post) and when to keep silent.

Best wishes,

P Goldsbury

Demetrio Cereijo
11-09-2010, 06:37 AM
Demetrio I don't mind if you ask yourself or not. But thank you for an honest answer. I wondered why you turned the subject back onto the original poster instead of addressing the point. Because that is avoiding the central debate.
.

Niall, I'm not avoiding the central debate. Unless you consider going socratic on OP is avoiding the debate. Maybe you prefer a different aproach to the issue but your dialectic preferences are not mine nor mandatory here afaik.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-09-2010, 06:45 AM
[I just saw you edited your post to ask me about Alejandro's attack. Sorry Demetrio I thought it was clear. It was when he said that people who are into being modest and humble want to be exalted as the most humble and modest. So that is a personal attack on the OP for starting the thred, on me for joining the debate agreeing with her, nearly every aikido teacher I know and nearly every budo teacher I know.]

Or simply he shares Nietzsche, Spinoza and other views instead of sharing the views of said aikido and budo teachers.

BTW, do you consider a personal attack every divergence from your opinion?

niall
11-09-2010, 06:51 AM
Nice post Peter, with a lot of good points. And I agree completely about Jun. But when you say there is room for all types of post let me counter that I have been told explicitly that someone has given up posting in the forums because of the aggressiveness. That's not good. And if people don't bother accessing the site because of it or are reluctant to become contributing members because of it that's not good either. I'm still relatively new on here so I don't have your sang-froid about the atmosphere.

niall
11-09-2010, 06:55 AM
Demetrio I was giving you the benefit of the doubt there for a while but no you just proved Carina's point too. And you're still avoiding the debate.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-09-2010, 07:03 AM
Demetrio I was giving you the benefit of the doubt there for a while but no you just proved Carina's point too. And you're still avoiding the debate.

You've just won the thread.

Mary Eastland
11-09-2010, 07:32 AM
Good Morning:
I like the truth. My truth might be different from others. I have learned much by posting and not posting on Aikiweb.

Thank you, Peter.

I have also learned much from watching and reading posts by others.
In the dojo I don't handpick my ukes. I must accept what they bring to the practice. I do this forum the same way. If the post is to wordy I don't read it. If it is sarcastic or demeaning, I don't take it personally.
This forum is another oppurtunity to train. I watch my thoughts and watch my ego.
When my feelings get hurt, I know I have to much invested and it's time for another time out.
There are some diamonds in the hay here.
Mary

guest1234567
11-09-2010, 07:32 AM
Despite the egoists and the trolls, I think this is an excellent forum. It is owned and managed by Jun Akiyama without any conditions for joining, except those four forum rules that appear whenever you write a post.

It is a large general forum which Jun manages on his own, without the help of any moderators. And there is room for all types of post.

I agree with you Prof Goldsbury it is an excellent forum thanks to Jun Akiyama who controlls very well the egoists and trolls. I hardly recognize a few of them:)

And Demetrio we are in an aikido forum, naturally you can also ask my family , neighbours or coworkers what they think about me, but I don't think it fits in an aikido forum

Flintstone
11-09-2010, 07:38 AM
Please Niall, what are you talking about? Did I troll the thread? Did I really attack Carina or yourself? What's the connection between what Peter said about Jun and trolls with me and the thread? Are YOU trolling me?

Oh, sorry, you don't like my opinion so I must be a troll.

Oh, yes, and I don't believe in blending and harmony? Do you read that from my post? Come on, you still cannot read minds. You failed.

I do believe in blending. I just do not believe the 合 in aikido can be separated from 合気 . Just saying that aiki is not "blending". And you consider that I don't believe in blending. Oh, sorry I'm not in the same level of understanding that you are. Both in Aikido or reading comprehension.

I just don't buy AIKIDO is "the way of harmony with Life, the Universe and Everithing", but "the way of Aiki (which is a set of skills, both internal and external)". But, hey, you are right, I meant it as a personal attack to Carina and/or you.

Go figure. I believe you attacked me, but I'm no friend of Jun and maybe you are. That's why you won't be banned.

Nicholas Eschenbruch
11-09-2010, 07:42 AM
Good Morning:
I like the truth. My truth might be different from others. I have learned much by posting and not posting on Aikiweb.

Thank you, Peter.

I have also learned much from watching and reading posts by others.
In the dojo I don't handpick my ukes. I must accept what they bring to the practice. I do this forum the same way. If the post is to wordy I don't read it. If it is sarcastic or demeaning, I don't take it personally.
This forum is another oppurtunity to train. I watch my thoughts and watch my ego.
When my feelings get hurt, I know I have to much invested and it's time for another time out.
There are some diamonds in the hay here.
Mary

Great post Mary, thanks.

Peter Goldsbury
11-09-2010, 07:55 AM
Hello Niall,

Well, I think we will have to agree to disagree.

When I stated that there is room for all types of post, I meant a wide spectrum, from the heavy-duty researched columns that I write, to the much more general chat discussions that take place often. You countered with a suggestion that I did not intend. I do not condone breaking of the rules of the forum, but I think it is up to Jun to decide what is aggressive. Sometimes I send him my opinions by PM, but it is his forum.

I have some experience of general martial arts forums and I moderate one of them. It is not the first time that someone has noted displays of egotism, conceit and self-importance in such forums and I am sure that Carina's post won't be the last.

I think people do not post for a variety of reasons, not merely because of aggression displayed. The fact that one does not have anything useful or appropriate to contribute is quite a powerful reason for me. I do not do blogs, nor do I like Facebook, though I have a very uneventful page there. How I see my own aikido, on or off the mat, is a private matter and I have no desire to reveal this to anyone, and certainly no obligation to do so.

Nice post Peter, with a lot of good points. And I agree completely about Jun. But when you say there is room for all types of post let me counter that I have been told explicitly that someone has given up posting in the forums because of the aggressiveness. That's not good. And if people don't bother accessing the site because of it or are reluctant to become contributing members because of it that's not good either. I'm still relatively new on here so I don't have your sang-froid about the atmosphere.

Best wishes,

PAG

Demetrio Cereijo
11-09-2010, 07:59 AM
I'm starting to thing some people would like to see enforced an Aikiweb version of japanese Peace Preservation Laws.

Kokutai must not be altered. So let it be written, so let it be done.

niall
11-09-2010, 08:24 AM
Thank you, Peter. Sorry for misinterpreting your point.

Demetrio I believe debate can be lively and robust without being aggressive and without personal attacks. There's plenty of that on bullshido and other places. If I misinterpreted your posts or Alejandro's I apologize.

By the way joking aside maybe another historical thread (about kokutai) is a good idea - your Turbulent priests and millenarian protest link was very interesting.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-09-2010, 09:33 AM
Niall, in reality there is nothing to be discussed.

Doshu said:

"In the realm of human relationships, one must avoid conflict and resolve problems in a harmonious Aikido fashion. In order to do this well, one must above all be modest and humble."

Sacred magisterium is not to be discussed by puny humans.

On Kokutai. Easy:

1- Get a Kokutai no Hongi (maybe there are still some available in Japan)
2 - Put the "aikido" where necessary.
3 - ....
4 - Profit

PS: You don't need to apologize to me.
PS 2: If you are still wondering why in an aikido forum is there so much low level spitefulness and lack of respect, the answer is... because is an aikido forum.

lbb
11-09-2010, 10:02 AM
If I cast the first stone, do I automatically get the "without sin" badge?

Anthony Loeppert
11-09-2010, 10:15 AM
Good Morning:
I do this forum the same way. If the post is to wordy I don't read it. If it is sarcastic or demeaning, I don't take it personally.
This forum is another oppurtunity to train. I watch my thoughts and watch my ego.
When my feelings get hurt, I know I have to much invested and it's time for another time out.


Of course an excellent strategy... and for the cases when one notices a consistent stream of (in the eyes of the beholder) useless posts from a particular person, there is the very practical "Add XYZ to your ignore list" when you click on someone's name.

I've yet to employ this feature as I'm relatively new here and don't want to pre-maturely exclude anyone but I've got a short mental list.

phitruong
11-09-2010, 10:38 AM
If I cast the first stone, do I automatically get the "without sin" badge?

only if you are Mary Jesus's mother :)

C. David Henderson
11-09-2010, 11:08 AM
Its true things get aggressive here at times. I've been angry and hurt before. But it takes two egos rubbing together to create a spark.

My problem with the premise of this discussion is the person spraying sparks over dry tender apparently doesn't perceive the piece of flint in her own hands.

I'm also certainly not convinced everyone believes in "robust debate," or distinguishes it from "personal attack."

In fact, it seems to me the OP expresses disapproval of people who do more than "humbly provide information," even though this thread appears to have little or nothing to do with requesting information, and even though there are clearly a lot of other reasons why people do engage in conversation here.

I accept for discussion's sake the statement that the thread wasn't started as a "personal attack on anyone."

Still, the opening post largely consists of negative feedback --- framed in a groovy way but nonetheless negative feedback -- suggesting the people who act differently in their posting behavior than the OP would prefer have an ego problem.

All of which may be well-intended too, as some perceive. My instincts suggest however, some of this may reflect a history of interactions that haven't been revealed.

Certainly, the initial responses reflected recognition by folks who were being addressed but not named that, yes they understood who was being discussed even without a $20,000 reward offer.

In any event, among the more polite (and logical) responses I can imagine to this kind of post, particularly when it doesn't explicitly own its antecedents, would be to turn the question around.

I didn't see this as an attack, but I did see the use of that label to deflect the question as a bit aggressive, not that I am in any position to disapprove.

Finally, shouldn't this thread be in "Open Discussions?" To call it "spiritual" and frame it in terms of "ego" just adds to the red flags for me.

YMMV, and that's the point.

Rob Watson
11-09-2010, 11:23 AM
Ego: egotism; conceit; self-importance
When I am training I can feel the different characters of my ukes,

'We' train together. 'I' train is the ego.
There are a few guys who only like to train with high grades never with newbies, because with the last they cannot exhibit themselves. This is ego in the dojo.
I don't like to train with lower ranks either for very similar reasons. I always train with upmost sincerity and try to repay the debt to those that helped me when training with lower ranks because I think that is what I'm supposed to do and liking it is not relevant nor required.
But I'm sorry to find some people who like to provoke or if they cannot answer in their own words just quote a famous phrase sometimes in another language, to exhibit themselves even if the person who is asking won't understand it. And finally I found a few who also like to show their great knowledge, these ones enjoy to write endless comments. They have the good intention to help, but don't think that if they put too much information, maybe they will annoy the person who is asking.

I 'd like to quote 3rd Doshu Moriteru Ueshiba Sensei, thanks Niall for your post in your blog..
One must, for example, maintain good Aikido posture and movement throughout the day. More important, however, is to maintain a modest attitude, and harmonize mind and body. In the realm of human relationships, one must avoid conflict and resolve problems in a harmonious Aikido fashion. In order to do this well, one must above all be modest and humble.
http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles/third_doshu/Moriteru_Ueshiba_Q_A_2.php

This is not a personal attack to anybody in this forum, I'm just writing my thoughts reading your posts ant threads as a new member.

To 'resolve problems in a harmonious Aikido fashion' presupposes there is/are conflict and problems that need resolution. What audacity and naked ego to suppose that one has the ability, right or even obligation to step in and 'execute' said resolution! Ego on the forum, you bet, out in the world too and everywhere one cares to look (especially inward). Why fight its existence when all that is needed is to treat it the same as any other perceived conflict or problem? Maybe doing it well requires one to be modest and humble but such is not a necessary requirement (we can resolve, maybe not well, but resolved nonetheless without being modest nor humble).

Maybe Rene Descartes needs a bit up updating for the 21st century: "I am ego therefor I post."

Ryan Seznee
11-09-2010, 01:35 PM
Ego: egotism; conceit; self-importance
When I am training I can feel the different characters of my ukes, if they are calm, relaxed, nervous, rigid,in a hurry or angry. There are a few guys who only like to train with high grades never with newbies, because with the last they cannot exhibit themselves. This is ego in the dojo.
Reading the threads in this forum and thinking about them I found also different personalities.Luckily many are so kind to find the information or just report an experience that might help the person who is posting. But I'm sorry to find some people who like to provoke or if they cannot answer in their own words just quote a famous phrase sometimes in another language, to exhibit themselves even if the person who is asking won't understand it. And finally I found a few who also like to show their great knowledge, these ones enjoy to write endless comments. They have the good intention to help, but don't think that if they put too much information, maybe they will annoy the person who is asking.

I 'd like to quote 3rd Doshu Moriteru Ueshiba Sensei, thanks Niall for your post in your blog..
One must, for example, maintain good Aikido posture and movement throughout the day. More important, however, is to maintain a modest attitude, and harmonize mind and body. In the realm of human relationships, one must avoid conflict and resolve problems in a harmonious Aikido fashion. In order to do this well, one must above all be modest and humble.
http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles/third_doshu/Moriteru_Ueshiba_Q_A_2.php

This is not a personal attack to anybody in this forum, I'm just writing my thoughts reading your posts ant threads as a new member.

I don't consider it an issue of ego when people want to train with the best people in a class. Good Aikidoka get better by training with good Aikidoka, not beginners. Selfish, maybe, egocentrically... I don't think so, but then again it depends on their motives.

As for on this site... yes I would have to agree. Most people that post give vapid answers to questions that even someone who has never stepped out on a mat can give you. I imagine they are only doing it to pat themselves on the back to say, "gee aren't I helpful". Even this observation could be made without a real understanding of Aikido :D

But to be fair, most people that post questions about a martial art on the internet when they have the ear of their instructor during class time are most likely seeking attention and less interested in getting advice anyway. Neither side is really being untruthful because they both understand that the situation is a lie, they are just both playing their codependent parts and get mutual validation from each other.

C. David Henderson
11-09-2010, 02:11 PM
As for on this site... yes I would have to agree. Most people that post give vapid answers to questions that even someone who has never stepped out on a mat can give you. I imagine they are only doing it to pat themselves on the back to say, "gee aren't I helpful". Even this observation could be made without a real understanding of Aikido

Where did she say this?

Most people?

But to be fair ... [n]either side is really being untruthful because they both understand that the situation is a lie, they are just both playing their codependent parts and get mutual validation from each other.

Why in the world do you participate in such sordid exchanges?

Demetrio Cereijo
11-09-2010, 02:27 PM
Vapid answers?

Carina complaints about:

But I'm sorry to find some people who like to provoke or if they cannot answer in their own words just quote a famous phrase sometimes in another language, to exhibit themselves even if the person who is asking won't understand it. And finally I found a few who also like to show their great knowledge, these ones enjoy to write endless comments. They have the good intention to help, but don't think that if they put too much information, maybe they will annoy the person who is asking.

It seems to me Carina has no problem with vapid answers. In fact it seems the opposite.

RED
11-09-2010, 02:44 PM
I appreciate the long answers. I have no problem reading, especially if the person knows what they are talking about.

Ryan Seznee
11-09-2010, 03:20 PM
Where did she say this?

Most people?

Why in the world do you participate in such sordid exchanges?

A) English 101... There is a period at the end the the sentese "I would have to agree with you." Meaning I ended my thought. I then add another thought to that to reinforce the central theme of the paragraph that is a separate thought from the first or else it would be included in the same sentence as, such as "I would have to agree with you that most of the answers obtained are vapid." But I didn't say that, I said "I would have to agree with you. Most of the answers given are vapid." This does not imply that she thought the answers given are vapid, only that I did in addition to what she thought. Please let me know if you have anymore questions on the English, that's what I'm here for... wait, no it isn't.

B) Most people, yes. Like yourself. You added no new information to this discussion, no opinion on what I said is added, and no thought is given to what I wrote as is evident by the fact that I had to read you what I just wrote... again. I think that is a very vapid statement. The only people who are worth listening to are the ones that rarely post, in my experience. Others may differ.

3) Yes I know I went A, B, 3, D. I did it so you will have something to comment about.

D) I am here to read articles by people who know what they are talking about. That is not most people. I comment as a joke.

Ryan Seznee
11-09-2010, 03:26 PM
Vapid answers?

Carina complaints about:

But I'm sorry to find some people who like to provoke or if they cannot answer in their own words just quote a famous phrase sometimes in another language, to exhibit themselves even if the person who is asking won't understand it. And finally I found a few who also like to show their great knowledge, these ones enjoy to write endless comments. They have the good intention to help, but don't think that if they put too much information, maybe they will annoy the person who is asking.

It seems to me Carina has no problem with vapid answers. In fact it seems the opposite.

See English 101. I commend your use of BOLD CHARACTERS but it is essentially shouting that part of the quote in writing. Maybe only quote the part you want to reference with "..." in between the parts you don't next time? Comes off less offensive.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-09-2010, 03:37 PM
See Typography 101: WRITING IN ALL CAPS is shouting. Bolding is emphatizing.

Don't try to teach your grandma to suck eggs. Kthxbai.

C. David Henderson
11-09-2010, 03:45 PM
You know, Ryan, you came across as angry, defensive, condescending and inauthentic, not joking.

It seems to me labelling "most people's" comments
as "vapid" isn't in agreement with the OP at all, but illustrative of the kinds of posts that she finds problematic.

So tell me, funny guy, what "theme" connected her point and yours? Or is that the punch line?

mathewjgano
11-09-2010, 03:55 PM
Ego: egotism; conceit; self-importance
...
This is not a personal attack to anybody in this forum, I'm just writing my thoughts reading your posts ant threads as a new member.

This is exactly why I love the internet. The anonymity it provides is such a great remover of inhibitions. We get to often see what people are really thinking about because of this. It's invaluable for that.
That said, sure, some folks like short posts, some folks like long posts. We're bound to annoy someone eventually...particularly since new people continue to be born ignorant every day. That and the individualized nature of taste dictates this will happen. I think Ego is something we're bound to, so it's supposed to be there. The question to my mind isn't whether or not someone is being egocentric, but whether they're being productive to the social grouping that person is interacting with. Some of the nicest people I've known seemed very egocentric...in fact I've come to believe any large amount of introspection will produce egocentric behavior. Personally speaking, I know mine has because I've always grown more confident from periods of intense introspection. I do what I can to keep balance...to keep my inescapable ego from ruining the balance of the system of friendship, training, etc. in which I happen to be engaging.
The process of refining this is another example of yamabiko...If I'm not mistaken. We put something out there and something is reflected back to us. The product of our initial expression and the shape of the mountain range. Many people seem to think the range needs changing in order to get the sound they're looking for. That's one way to do it, but good luck there. Personally, I'd rather change my voice since that's the part I have the most control over.
I'm feeling a little unorganized here, so I hope I'm making sense. I guess the gist or my message here is that as long as we're making an effort to "make things work" (never mind sorting out how that might be defined) it's more or less good and natural to the process. The problem comes when people shut down and refuse to adapt their responses while commanding others to adapt...although sometimes that's needed too so again I'm left with the idea that we just need to be mindful and hope we can find concordance with, well, whatever.
Ok, done babbling.
Take care all,
Matt

RED
11-09-2010, 04:32 PM
See Typography 101: WRITING IN ALL CAPS is shouting. Bolding is emphatizing.

Don't try to teach your grandma to suck eggs. Kthxbai.

I've taken typography.

All Caps is in fact shouting, or for OVER emphasis.

Bold print however is not emphasis. Typing in bold typically has an allusion in typography that the writer has to under-value the reader's intelligence ( :p ), thus they have to put direction to the portion of writing they want the reader to see as primarily cited. In most settings, bold print is considered inappropriate for this reason. Specifically in business or marketing where it is considered rude.

Italics is meant to give special emphasis, declare ownership, or to declare novelty within text.

Underlined text refers to any portion of type that directly correlates to the main subject of the text.

Just so we are all clear on the great typography debate of 2010. :cool:



this is all in jest BTW I'm not picking on you

Keith Larman
11-09-2010, 04:32 PM
"Speech that the Tathagata knows to be untrue, false, and useless, and also unpleasant and disagreeable to others, he does not speak; that which he knows to be true, real, and useful, but also unpleasant and disagreeable to others, in that case he knows the right time to express it. Speech that he knows to be untrue, false, and useless, but also pleasant and agreeable to others, he does not speak; that which is true, real, but useless, and also pleasant and agreeable to others, that, too, he does not speak; but that which is true, real, and useful, and also pleasant and agreeable to others, in that case he knows the right time to express it." (Edward Thomas, The Life of Buddha as Legend and History, 1975, pp. 136-137.)


Just wanted to say "great quote".

I was at a martial arts demonstration one day. I was watching a local "sensei" do his demonstration. I know he was a "sensei" because he called himself sensei repeatedly and he had a patch on his gi that said "sensei" just in case anyone forgot. I was sitting next to one of my teachers who quietly asked what I thought of the demo. I said in all honesty that I thought it was quite terrible. He looked at me and suggested I could learn something by watching any demonstration, even if it was learning what I should never do. He then said I should try to be kinder and not say such things.

He sat there for a minute. Then he added. "At least don't say it so loudly..."

I never quite knew how to interpret that exchange :)

So... I like your quote better. :D

mathewjgano
11-09-2010, 04:47 PM
...the writer has to under-value the reader's intelligence[/B] ( :p ), thus they have to put direction to the portion of writing they want the reader to see as primarily cited. In most settings, bold print is considered inappropriate for this reason. Specifically in business or marketing where it is considered rude.
LOL! Two fields that routinely (my opinion of course) undervalue the intelligence of folks. I love it!

Italics is meant to give special emphasis, declare ownership, or to declare novelty within text.
evileyes I knew that already. You just insulted my intelligence.
It's ok though, there isn't much to insult so I'm not that mad.
:p :D

Rabih Shanshiry
11-09-2010, 05:55 PM
I've taken typography.

All Caps is in fact shouting, or for OVER emphasis.

Bold print however is not emphasis. Typing in bold typically has an allusion in typography that the writer has to under-value the reader's intelligence ( :p ), thus they have to put direction to the portion of writing they want the reader to see as primarily cited. In most settings, bold print is considered inappropriate for this reason. Specifically in business or marketing where it is considered rude.

When Ryan is thrown at your dojo, do you take the ukemi for him too?

It seems like you guys tag-team virtually every thread, always rushing to each other's defense, when it is obvious you are each more than capable of responding for yourself.

Abasan
11-09-2010, 06:21 PM
That's great stuff. I've been very rude in some of my presentations unknowingly. All this time when we've been doing PPT presentations, some paragraphs inevitably become quite wordy and the only way I could emphasise some aspects which were special was by bolding it... so now I find it out it assumes the reader is stupid.:eek:

I'm wondering if colouring the words differently would amount to the same thing.

I've taken typography.

All Caps is in fact shouting, or for OVER emphasis.

Bold print however is not emphasis. Typing in bold typically has an allusion in typography that the writer has to under-value the reader's intelligence ( :p ), thus they have to put direction to the portion of writing they want the reader to see as primarily cited. In most settings, bold print is considered inappropriate for this reason. Specifically in business or marketing where it is considered rude.

Italics is meant to give special emphasis, declare ownership, or to declare novelty within text.

Underlined text refers to any portion of type that directly correlates to the main subject of the text.

Just so we are all clear on the great typography debate of 2010. :cool:

this is all in jest BTW I'm not picking on you

RED
11-09-2010, 06:43 PM
When Ryan is thrown at your dojo, do you take the ukemi for him too?

It seems like you guys tag-team virtually every thread, always rushing to each other's defense, when it is obvious you are each more than capable of responding for yourself.

Gosh, go take a joke and lighten up :p I was kidding around. :D

RED
11-09-2010, 06:47 PM
I'm wondering if colouring the words differently would amount to the same thing.

Hey, some of my favorite books have colourful letters. :freaky:

akiy
11-09-2010, 08:05 PM
Hi folks,

I'd like to take a moment and ask each of you to please direct your thoughts toward the topic being discussed rather than to the person discussing the topic. One suggestion that may be interesting to try would be to ask yourself, "How would I respond were the poster someone else?"

Otherwise, I would also like to ask people to tone down your rhetoric. Really, folks! If you feel the need to incite the flames of difficult communication, please do so elsewhere. Much more can be achieved, I believe, through communicating with respect -- even (or, perhaps, especially) the most controversial and "touchy" subjects.

Thank you, all, for your consideration(s).

-- Jun

RED
11-09-2010, 08:30 PM
There are a few guys who only like to train with high grades never with newbies, because with the last they cannot exhibit themselves. This is ego in the dojo.


In comment to this statement. I don't know if this is caused by ego per-say. I would call it selfish--maybe. Maybe it is ego for some ???
I tend to prefer to train with the highest ranked person I can find. Selfishness maybe. It's about wanting to be the best you can, train at the highest level you can for the longest you can.
I'm not opposed to training with a new student, I trained with a 12 year old girl a bit today..it's cool, but not my preference.
I don't train with the highest ranked people so I can to show off, I do it to learn, to train at a high level.

Frankly, I've never been hurt by a black belt either. I've only been hurt by low kyu ranks. I train a lot, so I do have to worry about injury, and getting bruised and pulped up. Low kyu ranks are the only people that trash me. I'll be honest some new students can be rigid, use too much force, wrench the hell out of you..etc. A black belt or high kyu rank has never injured me. I prefer to work with the people that will ensure that I can train more hours at a higher level. One bad move can take you out of training for a week or two, or at best make training slow and irritated for days, or even weeks.
I was always told to train hard while you're young; it'll decide the quality of Aikido you do when you're too old to train hard for hours a day.
My reasons...ego? I don't think so. But I guess its up for interpretation. lol

You can in my opinion be lacking in ego, while maintaining your self respect and standards for performance.

guest1234567
11-10-2010, 01:53 AM
I don't consider it an issue of ego when people want to train with the best people in a class. Good Aikidoka get better by training with good Aikidoka, not beginners. Selfish, maybe, egocentrically... I don't think so, but then again it depends on their motives.


Training with a newbie you can also learn a lot, if you are uke beeing a good one, if you are tori controlling uke in a way that you throw or leave him exactly in the point of the mat you want to.

Eva Antonia
11-10-2010, 02:41 AM
Hi,

coming back to the initial issue of training with newbies, I like it very much. Training with someone who is more advanced than I am is great because he can point out some issues to me I didn't remark before, he can smoothly correct or improve some specific points or he could just resist a bit more so that I find the kanck point myself.

But when training with a complete newbie, especially those of the rigid, strong and hard sort, the challenge is greater. Discarding explanations like "newbie attacked badly" (this would not count in the street when I wouldn't be able to defend myself), what might be the other reasons why I am not able to do ikkyo omote or kaiten nage correctly? Why is he able to wriggle out of shiho nage and I am not able to control him? Newbie can't tell, so I have to find out myself.

What I don't like so very much is training with small, light newbies who attack like a feather. But then again I suppose that's exactly the impression I would make on strong and dynamic yudansha who have to train with me...so that's fine also.

As to ego in the forum - no comment.
But I liked very much Peter Goldsbury's quote.

Best regards,

Eva

Ryan Seznee
11-10-2010, 08:29 AM
Training with a newbie you can also learn a lot, if you are uke beeing a good one, if you are tori controlling uke in a way that you throw or leave him exactly in the point of the mat you want to.

Newbies don't have has much to teach you because they don't know much to begin with. If they did, they wouldn't be newbies. I am not saying it is a waste of time, but no one drives for miles to see a day one beginner (but they do travel several hours to see a shihan). There was no lesson a beginner is able to teach me that someone more experienced can't do better, but (I'll be the first to admit) this is a selfish attitude.

Ryan Seznee
11-10-2010, 08:44 AM
...

But when training with a complete newbie, especially those of the rigid, strong and hard sort, the challenge is greater. Discarding explanations like "newbie attacked badly" (this would not count in the street when I wouldn't be able to defend myself), what might be the other reasons why I am not able to do ikkyo omote or kaiten nage correctly? Why is he able to wriggle out of shiho nage and I am not able to control him? Newbie can't tell, so I have to find out myself.

What I don't like so very much is training with small, light newbies who attack like a feather. But then again I suppose that's exactly the impression I would make on strong and dynamic yudansha who have to train with me...so that's fine also.

Eva

By in large, aikido is taught through dynamic kata. An uke litterally knows what you are going to do before you do it (unless you are practicing randori), so he should be able to escape the technique if he really wants by virtue of the fact that he knows where, how, and when you are going to attack. This isn't a failure of the technique per se, but his failure to do proper ukemi for the technique so you can practice it. It still leaves him open for another, just not that one. For instance, if someone attacks with a shomanuchi with a straight, stiff arm, it is impossible to do ikkyo without forcefully bending the arm. It does make a nice opening for rokyo, however. Higher level practitioners tend to switch to whatever works best based on body position, or such has been my experience.

guest1234567
11-10-2010, 08:46 AM
Newbies don't have has much to teach you because they don't know much to begin with. If they did, they wouldn't be newbies. I am not saying it is a waste of time, but no one drives for miles to see a day one beginner (but they do travel several hours to see a shihan). There was no lesson a beginner is able to teach me that someone more experienced can't do better, but (I'll be the first to admit) this is a selfish attitude.
Yes, newbies don'thave to teach you, you must learn by yourselve training with a newbie, it is a challenge,
As Eva Antonia said they are rigid and strong, or attack like a feather, you must teach them beeing a good uke or as a tori telling them always to hold the contact with you,turning them the way you need to do the technique, telling them to relax, showing them how to fall down without hurting themselves, sure it is easier training with a higher grade and sure it will look better , but you can learn really a lot training with a newbie, think about it .

guest1234567
11-10-2010, 08:53 AM
B. For instance, if someone attacks with a shomanuchi with a straight, stiff arm, it is impossible to do ikkyo without forcefully bending the arm. It does make a nice opening for rokyo, however. Higher level practitioners tend to switch to whatever works best based on body position, or such has been my experience.
It is no impossible, just turn the arm because otherwise you will hurt him.

Josh Reyer
11-10-2010, 09:34 AM
I don't consider it an issue of ego when people want to train with the best people in a class. Good Aikidoka get better by training with good Aikidoka, not beginners. Selfish, maybe, egocentrically... I don't think so, but then again it depends on their motives.
Ego = self. It is after all the Latin word for "I". If something is selfish, it's perforce an ego problem. "Egocentric" is merely a high-falutin' Latin word for good old Old English "selfish". Perhaps the biggest misunderstanding in the budo world is the idea that training to lose the ego merely means training to not be a jerk about things. It's about something much deeper, and much harder: abandoning the whole sense of "self". The term 無我 muga long predates Freud's use of "ego", or it's derived modern sense of "exaggerated sense of self-importance".

Of course, that's a Buddhist take on budo, and aikido's more of a Shinto-flavored art, so take it FWIW, and YMMV.

Flintstone
11-10-2010, 10:08 AM
As Eva Antonia said they are rigid and strong, or attack like a feather, you must teach them beeing a good uke or as a tori telling them always to hold the contact with you,turning them the way you need to do the technique, telling them to relax, showing them how to fall down without hurting themselves, sure it is easier training with a higher grade and sure it will look better , but you can learn really a lot training with a newbie, think about it .
Where is the "uke is always right" attitude? Look, you don't need to teach him to maintain contact, because that won't happen in Real Life (TM). You will say, if uke doesn't keep contact tori will strike him; I always heard that from César upwards. Well, maybe uke will strike / take down / whatever tori.

It is tori's job to make uke "turn the way you need...". Not to tell him how to do it. But to make him do it. That's performed by means of technique, not by means of indoctrination.

Uke is always right, stiff or pliable, hard or soft, fast or slow. It's tori's job to make uke do what he (tori) wants him (uke) to do. I thought that was what aiki was about (in its exterior form).

And, please, this is not a personal attack on you, your Sensei or those who think like you.

Flintstone
11-10-2010, 10:09 AM
It is no impossible, just turn the arm because otherwise you will hurt him.
Wonder if you can teach me that should we get to meet in the mat.

Flintstone
11-10-2010, 10:12 AM
Ego = self. It is after all the Latin word for "I". If something is selfish, it's perforce an ego problem. "Egocentric" is merely a high-falutin' Latin word for good old Old English "selfish".
Well, I don't know in English, but in good old Spanish there surely is a difference between "egocéntrico (egocentric)" and "egoísta (selfish)". In my part of the world, egocentric is used to describe the person who believe that he is the... well... center of everything else, that everything's about him, that he's the bride in the wedding, the baby in the baptism, the dead in the funeral. Selfish is the one who wants it all. But maybe we should move this to the Latin Subforum.

C. David Henderson
11-10-2010, 10:47 AM
Practice with kids; you'll learn alot if you're open to study.

Janet Rosen
11-10-2010, 11:01 AM
Training with newbies, peers and seniors is all of very high value to me although the aspect of my training on which I'm working will vary.

A good senior will challenge me to push my boundaries, to improve. A peer can provide a mirror of where I am, reflecting it back to me, and we may laugh together as we learn.
A beginner will challenge me to confront what I think I already know/can do and in the need to transmit knowledge through the body I test the depth of my abilities.

The only people I don't enjoy training with are those who deliver absolutely ho-hum attacks or crank or muscle their way through techniques. The only people I turn away from when it's time to partner up are those who hurt others - mercifully this hasn't come up in many many years in my training.

But....the only person who can waste my time on the mat is ME.

Janet Rosen
11-10-2010, 11:02 AM
Well, I don't know in English, but in good old Spanish there surely is a difference between "egocéntrico (egocentric)" and "egoísta (selfish)". In my part of the world, egocentric is used to describe the person who believe that he is the... well... center of everything else, that everything's about him, that he's the bride in the wedding, the baby in the baptism, the dead in the funeral. Selfish is the one who wants it all. But maybe we should move this to the Latin Subforum.

Same in English. Two very different words to describe two very different people.

Flintstone
11-10-2010, 11:03 AM
Practice with kids; you'll learn alot if you're open to study.
I love to practice with them a well as with newbies. See, now I'm being egocentric, but not selfish...

Ryan Seznee
11-10-2010, 12:04 PM
It is no impossible, just turn the arm because otherwise you will hurt him.

I had said it was impossible without forcefully bending the arm. Turning the arm is just another way to bend it through another joint, in my mind at least... I meant that there were techniques better suited to that body position, not that some newbie had miraculously discovered the secret to beating all Ikkyo.

mickeygelum
11-10-2010, 12:11 PM
I love to practice with them a well as with newbies. See, now I'm being egocentric, but not selfish...


Oh, Alejandro...you have such a way with words...:D

Mickey

guest1234567
11-10-2010, 12:18 PM
Wonder if you can teach me that should we get to meet in the mat.

I'd like it, I'll tell you when I will go to a seminar to the peninsula, ok:)

guest1234567
11-10-2010, 12:37 PM
Where is the "uke is always right" attitude? Look, you don't need to teach him to maintain contact, because that won't happen in Real Life (TM). You will say, if uke doesn't keep contact tori will strike him; I always heard that from César upwards. Well, maybe uke will strike / take down / whatever tori.

It is tori's job to make uke "turn the way you need...". Not to tell him how to do it. But to make him do it. That's performed by means of technique, not by means of indoctrination.

Uke is always right, stiff or pliable, hard or soft, fast or slow. It's tori's job to make uke do what he (tori) wants him (uke) to do. I thought that was what aiki was about (in its exterior form).

And, please, this is not a personal attack on you, your Sensei or those who think like you.
I know that, and Alejandro we are not on the street we are in a dojo with a newbie who wants to learn aikido..
When did you see Cesar last? He changed a lot, I hope for you you will also become some sense in a few years;)

sakumeikan
11-23-2010, 06:06 PM
Newbies don't have has much to teach you because they don't know much to begin with. If they did, they wouldn't be newbies. I am not saying it is a waste of time, but no one drives for miles to see a day one beginner (but they do travel several hours to see a shihan). There was no lesson a beginner is able to teach me that someone more experienced can't do better, but (I'll be the first to admit) this is a selfish attitude.

I might be in a minority but I can gain from practicing with all levels of skill in Aikido.In some ways a raw beginner can be an invaluable aid in your training.Since the beginner is moving in a natural manner rather than in a conditioned manner of some experienced person , it can be a challenge to pin /throw a beginner [who might be strong /stiff or built like King Kong.Another point is this, how would newbies get experience if everybody avoided training with them?.At least you admit your a selfish individual.I suggest you reconsider your mind set.
Cheers, Joe.

Tony Wagstaffe
11-24-2010, 03:40 PM
Ego is every where, some good, some bad, some quiet, some sad.... It's what you are.....

guest1234567
11-24-2010, 04:21 PM
Ego is every where, some good, some bad, some quiet, some sad.... It's what you are.....

very nice:)