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Norton
08-22-2008, 11:17 AM
Hi,

This may be a little off-topic, but, since there are more experienced people here, I think it's right to ask.
Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground? I don't mean the "a successful Aikidoka wouldn't go to the ground in the first place". Let's pretend that you fell to the ground.

salim
08-22-2008, 11:24 AM
Hi,

This may be a little off-topic, but, since there are more experienced people here, I think it's right to ask.
Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground? I don't mean the "a successful Aikidoka wouldn't go to the ground in the first place". Let's pretend that you fell to the ground.

Picture of O'sensei on the ground (newaza). It looks like he is defending himself to me. I think if an Aikidoka found himself on the ground he/she would do something similar to this picture.

Flintstone
08-22-2008, 11:28 AM
Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground? I don't mean the "a successful Aikidoka wouldn't go to the ground in the first place". Let's pretend that you fell to the ground.
Definitely. But then, you must train for it. Ground is quite an alien place to be for most aikidoka...

Aikibu
08-22-2008, 12:39 PM
If most Aikidoka end up on the ground they have lost.

"ground fighting" is a complex technically rich discipline that requires serious study to become competent. That means cross training.

I am sure other folks here would agree that someone like Roy Dean or Micheal Fooks, Don MaGhee and some other would be good resources to find a good "dirtikido" :) teacher in your area.

William Hazen

James Edwards
08-22-2008, 01:11 PM
I like to think that you can use Aikido principles when you are on the ground as well. There are probably a few hidden kaeshi-waza somewhere that lets you spot an opening and take advantage of it. But that might be only if there is an opening. Perhaps if a BJJ practitioner gets you in the crucifix there may not be much that you can do.

There's a video of Shioda sensei on youtube somewhere with 2 of his students pinning him flat on the ground. The next moment he brought them down with some sort of ki technique..

Norton
08-22-2008, 01:12 PM
I like to think that you can use Aikido principles when you are on the ground as well. There are probably a few hidden kaeshi-waza somewhere that lets you spot an opening and take advantage of it. But that might be only if there is an opening. Perhaps if a BJJ practitioner gets you in the crucifix there may not be much that you can do.

There's a video of Shioda sensei on youtube somewhere with 2 of his students pinning him flat on the ground. The next moment he brought them down with some sort of ki technique..

That's what I actually meant.

salim
08-22-2008, 01:47 PM
If most Aikidoka end up on the ground they have lost.

"ground fighting" is a complex technically rich discipline that requires serious study to become competent. That means cross training.

I am sure other folks here would agree that someone like Roy Dean or Micheal Fooks, Don MaGhee and some other would be good resources to find a good "dirtikido" :) teacher in your area.

William Hazen

When an attacker is attempting to rape a women more than likely she will be on her back. It's a fact of reality. This is the most common situation for a women who is attacked. She will need to know some basic principles of wrist locks, arm locks or chokes to subdue her attacker. These locks and chokes can be applied while on the ground or on her back while standing. Perhaps this will force the attacker to stop the attack or allow the women to escape. The key here is subduing your attacker, restraining the aggression without brute force. The attacker could be 100lbs heavier, it want matter, because it's not about strength, kicks or punches, it's about restraining the attacker.

Newaza is important for an Aikidoka. We never can predict a situation no matter a persons skill level. Better to have knowledge of the situation, than not.

Ellis Amdur
08-22-2008, 02:28 PM
The key here is subduing your attacker, restraining the aggression without brute force. I did not quote the entire post, because it's just above. It is, also, with all respect, terribly wrong. Principals of aiki will assist an individual in fighting off an attacker while on the ground (I do not have to refer to the usual suspects - the Itten Dojo, for example, is doing some wonderful work in this area).
But if one is being physically attacked on the ground -in an attempted rape, no less - the only solution if one chooses to fight, is to devastatingly injure the other person. If you do not utterly stop them, they will become enraged, just like a toddler will throw a toy that pinched his or her fingers. (See the off-shoots of Model Mugging, Impact, etc., "adrenaline stress training," for examples).
One can go too far in the idea of non-resistance, restraint without brutality, etc. Osensei had a daughter. I would wager a fair amount of money that if she were to have asked her father what she should do if being sexually assaulted, he would have suggested reaching up, pulling out one of those long 4 inch pins that held a traditional hairstyle, and ramming it in the man's ear into his brain. (a traditional woman's self-defense tactic in Japan - not a product of my imagination). Maybe I'm wrong. But if he suggested less than that, it would not bespeak well of him as a father - thereby not teaching his daughter something that would actually work.
Best

Aikibu
08-22-2008, 03:54 PM
When an attacker is attempting to rape a women more than likely she will be on her back. It's a fact of reality. This is the most common situation for a women who is attacked. She will need to know some basic principles of wrist locks, arm locks or chokes to subdue her attacker. These locks and chokes can be applied while on the ground or on her back while standing. Perhaps this will force the attacker to stop the attack or allow the women to escape. The key here is subduing your attacker, restraining the aggression without brute force. The attacker could be 100lbs heavier, it want matter, because it's not about strength, kicks or punches, it's about restraining the attacker.

Newaza is important for an Aikidoka. We never can predict a situation no matter a persons skill level. Better to have knowledge of the situation, than not.

Salim,

I highly suggest you attend some rape prevention courses. If a woman is being attacked (and Rape is about power) she needs to do everything she can to survive. Her attackers well being is the least of her worries.

A woman on her back and outweighed by a hundred pounds did not get there with her consent. She is more than likely already suffered some serious physical trauma and under some form of extreme emotional and/or physiological duress (and is perhaps already in shock.)There are specific simple guidelines to follow under such circumstances and perhaps the least of these is some type of choke or "wrist lock from the guard"...

Very few Dojos teach Rape Prevention the way it should be taught. Indeed 90% of the Rape Prevention Classes I see in Dojos are highly dubious. Your best bet is to invite a Local Law Enforcement Agency to come teach a class. Then perhaps you can exchange ideas about how to incorporate your "style" of practice into their training.

There is much much more to rape prevention than Waza my friend. :)

Back to the subject.

William Hazen

salim
08-22-2008, 05:02 PM
Salim,

I highly suggest you attend some rape prevention courses. If a woman is being attacked (and Rape is about power) she needs to do everything she can to survive. Her attackers well being is the least of her worries.

A woman on her back and outweighed by a hundred pounds did not get there with her consent. She is more than likely already suffered some serious physical trauma and under some form of extreme emotional and/or physiological duress (and is perhaps already in shock.)There are specific simple guidelines to follow under such circumstances and perhaps the least of these is some type of choke or "wrist lock from the guard"...

Very few Dojos teach Rape Prevention the way it should be taught. Indeed 90% of the Rape Prevention Classes I see in Dojos are highly dubious. Your best bet is to invite a Local Law Enforcement Agency to come teach a class. Then perhaps you can exchange ideas about how to incorporate your "style" of practice into their training.

There is much much more to rape prevention than Waza my friend. :)

Back to the subject.

William Hazen

I have attended some rape prevention seminars. Date rape is the most common form of rape and these women find themselves on their back. So yes, a good arm lock or wrist lock for an unruly boyfriend to get off of you may work.

I'm not an expert and that's not the point here. Only to suggest that it's an option for self defense.

Kevin Leavitt
08-22-2008, 08:41 PM
The Problem with being on your back, mounted by your opponent is that he controls you. Until you reverse that situation, or escape that mount, no wrist lock or choke technique is going to help you.

You need to learn proper jiu jitsu. That is positional hierarchy. Escaping the mount, passing the guard, shrimping, side control, establishing dominance, and/or escaping. This is all basic JJ.

Shime Waza, (Chokes), joint locks, pins, etc...will not work until you can get a a postiion to do so.

salim
08-22-2008, 10:18 PM
The Problem with being on your back, mounted by your opponent is that he controls you. Until you reverse that situation, or escape that mount, no wrist lock or choke technique is going to help you.

You need to learn proper jiu jitsu. That is positional hierarchy. Escaping the mount, passing the guard, shrimping, side control, establishing dominance, and/or escaping. This is all basic JJ.

Shime Waza, (Chokes), joint locks, pins, etc...will not work until you can get a a postiion to do so.

Think again, this video proves otherwise. You mean if a women is in this position, flat on her back she can't perform an arm lock. Not sure about your Jujutsu or Aiki methods.

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/video/straight_armlock

Kevin Leavitt
08-22-2008, 11:43 PM
Well, one, Roy is in the Guard, not in the mount. So yes, in the hierarchy of positional dominance, he is one up from the mount and has control of his opponents hips. So yes, indeed "possible".

However, have you ever really tried an arm bar from the guard on a fully resistant opponent? Especially one that is bigger than you? Probably not the smartest thing to attempt on the street.

I am a purple belt in BJJ and compete internationallly, I don't get these but every so often, AND we are not allowed to hit, AND we are segregated by weight class, have nice mats, gi's and are rewarded for fighting on the ground.

That said, as a teaching tool, the Arm bar from the guard is a wonderful thing to teach. It teaches you many things that are much more important than getting the arm bar itself.

This is one of the basic techniques we start teaching at the white belt level. Why? not because we expect that students will readily be able to go out on the street and use it, but because it starts developing the ability to move the hips.

Watch the video carefully and you will see that the very first thing that happens in you break spinal alignment by underhooking the leg and moving your hips off to the side. This serves to off balance your opponent (principle of irimi) and his weight is no longer going straight down on you.

More often than the arm bar, you are able to execute a sweep and put yourself in a more dominant position, which allows you to more better control the guy and possibly escape or apply chokes, or by time.

Being able to do this, however, takes a fair amount of practice to develop the skills, the attack chains, and the timing to be able to execute jiujitsu from the guard. It is why we BJJers spend so much time in the Guard.

From the guard for a self defense perspective, I would tend to teach cross collar chokes, strikes, shrimping skills, and teach them to stand up in base once they created distance, way before i'd spend time on teaching the Arm Bar from the Guard as a method of self defense.

Again, it is a good base technique for learning JJ fundamentals, and is an excellent foundation to build attack chains upon. As a money maker....not likely for a female being over powered by a guy...too technical and way too much risk involved, and there are many other things that should be taught first that are more "high percentage" and safer.

Wrist locks, arm bars and such might be useful in buying you time or creating a space in the fight, however they don't typically end a "real" fight or rape, they tend to piss the guy off more.

However, a good blood choke executed shuts things down. I'd put my money on establishing a position that I could execute a blood choke way before ever using an arm bar.

Aristeia
08-23-2008, 01:47 AM
as always.....what Kevin said.

From a self defence point of view (i.e. training soemone who is not going to commit to grappling full time but needs to "cover the base") the focus should be on the baics - which means positional control. Options to improve position with a view to regaining ones feet.

Wristlocking someone from underneath is certainly not a goer.

Roy may well hit an armbar from guard, but then he's a BJJ black belt I believe. So if we're looking for Aikido solutions as per the original poster - this ain't it.

I also think it's a mistake to post those photos of o'sensei doing and average head and arm choke and claim that that's what most aikidoka would do. Just cause Ueshiba had an idea doesn't mean it's passed to the rest of us vicariously through our grading certificates. If you look at those photo's and realise that you've never trained that technique - guess what it don't matter if it's "in aikido" if you haven't personally trained it a bunch.

Having said that, I've never understood the obsesson for finding the "aikido solution" for a problem aikido never traines to deal with. It's a bit like asking what the football solution to a fastball is.

long story short, if you want to know how to deal with a grappler on the ground, you have to go put in some time at a ground grappling school. Trying to reinvent ground fighting seems terribly....inefficient. Particularly when groundfighting typically utlisies many aiki stragegies anywho.

xuzen
08-23-2008, 01:53 AM
Hi,

This may be a little off-topic, but, since there are more experienced people here, I think it's right to ask.
Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground? I don't mean the "a successful Aikidoka wouldn't go to the ground in the first place". Let's pretend that you fell to the ground.

Sure.... use a jo, no I am not cheating, jo is very much part of the syllabus.

Failing that... learn how to T3H GR4PPL3 [tm].

Boon.

tuturuhan
08-23-2008, 05:20 AM
But if one is being physically attacked on the ground -in an attempted rape, no less - the only solution if one chooses to fight, is to devastatingly injure the other person. If you do not utterly stop them, they will become enraged, just like a toddler will throw a toy that pinched his or her fingers.

. Osensei had a daughter. I would wager a fair amount of money that if she were to have asked her father what she should do if being sexually assaulted, he would have suggested reaching up, pulling out one of those long 4 inch pins that held a traditional hairstyle, and ramming it in the man's ear into his brain. (a traditional woman's self-defense tactic in Japan - not a product of my imagination). t

There is no doubt that the grappler's initial "take down" is a force to be reckoned with. As such, can one defend against it?

The "intent" of the grappler is to take you to the ground and force a submission. It is not about "killing". I believe that prior to WWII, O'Sensei and many like him understood that the "foundation" of martial practice was to "kill or be killed". It had nothing to do with morality. It had everything to do with the "responsiblity" that goes with killing. After WWII, and with the continued sanitazation of aikido by it's current inheritors, this "martial blackness" was hidden and remains covered.

As such, many of the young folk "look" only at the "outer layer" of aikido and see "lacking". They believe their is a necessity for going outside of aikido. They do not understand, that "aikido" is a complete martial art. It espouses the "intent" of universality".

At this level of "advancedness" all "complete martial arts" are the same. In other words, everything "they" do we do. Everything "we" do they do, providing there martial art is also complete. (Unfortunately, my naming it, "in this instance aikido" many have mistakenly boxed themselves into a perceived corner.)

There are striking, kicking, grappling, throwing, locks, pressure points in aikido. It's just that the "many" don't see "it".

As such, does the aikidoist have the "tools" to defend against the take-down? Yes...He has the bokken, the jo, the staff, the sword. Any of those weapons will assuredly kill. Or as Ellis says, he can use the "four inch hairpin".

Now, as for all the other "groundwork" in the grappler's limited tool box, once I rip out his throat with the penetration of my "trained fingers", his attempted submissions don't matter much.

It is the "intent", not the limitation of the technique.

Aristeia
08-23-2008, 06:06 AM
wow

salim
08-23-2008, 09:12 AM
Well, one, Roy is in the Guard, not in the mount. So yes, in the hierarchy of positional dominance, he is one up from the mount and has control of his opponents hips. So yes, indeed "possible".

However, have you ever really tried an arm bar from the guard on a fully resistant opponent? Especially one that is bigger than you? Probably not the smartest thing to attempt on the street.

I am a purple belt in BJJ and compete internationallly, I don't get these but every so often, AND we are not allowed to hit, AND we are segregated by weight class, have nice mats, gi's and are rewarded for fighting on the ground.

That said, as a teaching tool, the Arm bar from the guard is a wonderful thing to teach. It teaches you many things that are much more important than getting the arm bar itself.

This is one of the basic techniques we start teaching at the white belt level. Why? not because we expect that students will readily be able to go out on the street and use it, but because it starts developing the ability to move the hips.

Watch the video carefully and you will see that the very first thing that happens in you break spinal alignment by underhooking the leg and moving your hips off to the side. This serves to off balance your opponent (principle of irimi) and his weight is no longer going straight down on you.

More often than the arm bar, you are able to execute a sweep and put yourself in a more dominant position, which allows you to more better control the guy and possibly escape or apply chokes, or by time.

Being able to do this, however, takes a fair amount of practice to develop the skills, the attack chains, and the timing to be able to execute jiujitsu from the guard. It is why we BJJers spend so much time in the Guard.

From the guard for a self defense perspective, I would tend to teach cross collar chokes, strikes, shrimping skills, and teach them to stand up in base once they created distance, way before i'd spend time on teaching the Arm Bar from the Guard as a method of self defense.

Again, it is a good base technique for learning JJ fundamentals, and is an excellent foundation to build attack chains upon. As a money maker....not likely for a female being over powered by a guy...too technical and way too much risk involved, and there are many other things that should be taught first that are more "high percentage" and safer.

Wrist locks, arm bars and such might be useful in buying you time or creating a space in the fight, however they don't typically end a "real" fight or rape, they tend to piss the guy off more.

However, a good blood choke executed shuts things down. I'd put my money on establishing a position that I could execute a blood choke way before ever using an arm bar.

It was just one scenario, but surely not the only solution. Eye gouging, biting are always options. Maybe it want work. You have to try if it will help save you. The possibility is there for one who knows how to execute the technique. Yes it takes some skill. Learning these techniques in Aikido and BJJ both take time and a lot of practice.

In my Aikido dojo we have a black belt BJJ instructor teach us basic techniques. I have by incident pull off an arm bar in our dojo against an unruly student who became angry and wanted to challenge me. I was in the guard and just reacted, it worked. Could I do it again with precision exactly, maybe not. His arm was just there, saying lock the hell out of me. His reactions were pretty slow. Perhaps that was more of the reason I was able to execute the arm bar. Would I try that on the street, probably not. Would I try this if I were in a grassy area or dirt field, maybe. A person has to know their surroundings and learn what's applicable during a particular altercation. Self defense training for every possible situation takes years, maybe never. The key is to make you mind and body accustom to conflict trauma. This will at least hopefully give you the advantage in an altercation.

I've been training in Aikido for about two years. BJJ for almost 7 months. I'm new to both martial arts. Prior to Aikido or BJJ, I trained in Burmese Bando for 5 years reaching a brown belt. Bando is the sister to Muy Thai. Bando has grappling also and we learned chokes and arms locks, but applied differently. Martial Arts isn't new to me. I'm pretty athletic and have a natural deposition for the arts. I learn fast.

Having the knowledge of physical altercations and being familiar with body trauma, prevents unfavorable emotional reactions. A person needs to use their head and think as quickly as possible. Our BJJ instructor always tells the female students that this technique may help you in an assault. It's no guarantee.

Kevin Leavitt
08-23-2008, 10:04 AM
Joseph wrote:

The "intent" of the grappler is to take you to the ground and force a submission. It is not about "killing".

Are you implying that a grappler is not capable of killing? Yes, "intent" is an interesting concept for sure. A Greco Roman guy knows quite a bit about killing with his bare hands, I would venture to say alot. Neck Cranks, slams to the back of the neck etc....BTW he has access to the exact same tool box everyone else does. They just choose to be sportsman in most cases and stick to the rules of competition. They do know how to turn a fireman's throw into a incapacitating thing if they desire.

Martial blackness is hidden in all arts, to include the sport centric ones. they tend not to focus on that level of "competition" like the so of the so called DO or SU arts that seem to like to take a moral high ground, yet claim to NOT be about "competition". Yeah....Right! Competition comes in many forms. I tend to like the directness and honesty that at least arts like G-R and Judo take towards the whole competition/lethal technique thing.

Joseph Wrote:

As such, many of the young folk "look" only at the "outer layer" of aikido and see "lacking". They believe their is a necessity for going outside of aikido. They do not understand, that "aikido" is a complete martial art. It espouses the "intent" of universality"

Is it really "complete"? If so, why do you and I spend so much time outside of it? I am assuming from what I see of what you practice that you spend a great deal of time doing other things.

That said, philosophically, where does aikido begin and end? If you took that argument, then I'd buy it, as for me, my BJJ practice is Aiki.

A blanket statement though that "aikido is a complete art" really doesn't say much and doesn't really help beginners much.

It does though help the instructor that wants to shield or control knowledge or wield warped power over his student though.

Joseph wrote:

There are striking, kicking, grappling, throwing, locks, pressure points in aikido. It's just that the "many" don't see "it".

yes, they don't see it because their instructors don't teach it, or they don't teach it correctly and if they DO teach it, they don't teach them the realitive value of these things as it relates to the whole of the fight because they have never really used it, or tried to in a non-compliant environment.

If it is "hidden" it is hidden because the instructor chose to hide it, not because the students fail to see it.

Joseph wrote:

Now, as for all the other "groundwork" in the grappler's limited tool box, once I rip out his throat with the penetration of my "trained fingers", his attempted submissions don't matter much.


This one is my favorite....

I am always curious...don't you think that the grappler has access to these things as well in a fight?

curious, how much skill does it really take to train fingers? No one has ever been able to show me. I must not be exposed to very good "finger" skilled guys, so it is possible I am talking out of ignorance.

Sure, I get it, there are guys that train their hands to apparently reach in and rip out muscles, throats etc... Dan Harden and Mike Sigman have talked a great deal about this and it is believable.

I think Dan would agree with me though that positional dominance and control is key to even using those tools.

Don't make the assumption that grapplers have such a limited tool box, that just ain't so, he has access to the same basic tool set you do in that situation.

However, if he can grapple better than you, well you will be dealing with the same crap you are trying to institute on him.

Been there done this argument/logic a more than a few times...on the mat.

Joseph wrote:

It is the "intent", not the limitation of the technique

Well I agree, intent is very important, but it is not the only thing that is important.

I intend to be a millionaire.
I intend to be president of the US one day.
I intend to master BJJ and Aikido

However, techniques, tools, and sometimes just plain luck matter.

Kevin Leavitt
08-23-2008, 10:22 AM
Salim,

Sounds like you are on the right track in your training, IMO. It took me 15 years to figure out what you are figuring out in a short amount of time! (2 years Aikido, 7 months BJJ).

I am sure we would be in find much common ground on the mat for sure! Much can be lost in digits!

Mike Fooks does a good job of summarizing what I am trying to convey.

I tend to focus less on techniques such as the arm bar, but look at the whole of the situation. As you progress through Blue Belt, and advance up to purple you will become less concerned with individual techniques and more about position and setting up things two, three, and four moves ahead. You will also find that your set ups allow you multiple options in every position. that is arm bar, guillotine, and sweep from the same basic position.

It is natural to learn a new technique and then go out and look for a way to implement it...it is how we learn BJJ! Then your buddies shut it down and you have to go find a new one...and the cycle continues!

good luck and keep up the post, They are good!

Buck
08-23-2008, 10:50 AM
Principals of aiki will assist an individual in fighting off an attacker while on the ground

one is being physically attacked on the ground -in an attempted rape, no less - the only solution if one chooses to fight, is to devastatingly injure the other person.

One can go too far in the idea of non-resistance, restraint without brutality, etc. Osensei had a daughter. what she should do if being sexually assaulted, he would have suggested, pulling out long 4 inch pins that held a traditional hairstyle, and ramming it in the man's ear into his brain. (a traditional woman's self-defense tactic in Japan - not a product of my imagination).


Oh oh...! Another MMA/BJJ vs. Aikido immortal monster of a thread thing. Gotta love 'em :D

I think this unresolvable question will live on for ever until:

1. Someone bastardizes* Aikido successfully for MMA fights (*don't know if the word is not exceptable, no insult intended. I am not intending to be profane. But the word works well with being without parent connection. Pls. excuse it, if it's seen as profane) .

2. All those who take both MMA and Aikido, and lean more to MMA than Aikido realize the two are worlds apart. That each came into its own at different points in time and culture. One is an art and the other is a combative sport. MMA train for a sport fighting competition, Aikido was never intended to do that. The composite Aikido that does compete wasn't intended for an Aikido venue and not MMA. MMA wasn't around when that style of Aikido was created. Therefore, those who want to make a living fighting or enjoy fighting as done accordingly to MMA rules, do MMA. Those who are looking for something else who isn't about becoming a fighter, but other things go to Aikido. Not everyone wants to do a Hell's Kitchen because they enjoy cooking.

Now shifting gears. If in a real self-defense situation on the street there is a possibility the situation will go to the ground. But keep in mind where Aikido came from. It came from real combat tested martial applications that where effective in killing the other guy. Not from a sport where the loser walks away from a ring with rules, ref, and judges that has to be commissioned to take place, without a medical staff at hand. Aikido techniques designed from that to be use in a time and place when there was a shift in Japanese society, long before MMA. This means that Aikido does have validity in a self-defense situation both like Ellis and William has said. More than likely, depending on your training in either MMA or Aikido you are attacked on the street you are likely to have the advantage. And that is what it all comes down to anyway, where you take them to the ground, or it goes to the ground, or it can't go to the ground or it doesn't go to the ground. The advantage I see Aikido has over MMA in a situation where you are standing is control, like using a come-a-long on a drunk.

The other thing I see like Ellis pointed out is the intensity of the situation being faced and using what ever you have because you are fighting for your life. I doubt very highly that if an Aikidoka happened to found him or herself on top of an attacker their instincts wouldn't kick in to "ground and pound." That is the natural instinct to punch viciously at the face of the guy on the bottom who was trying to kill you. In an intense life or death situation you don't what your going to do, or how you will react. Regardless of your MMA or Aikido training if you have a gun pointed at your head you might freeze, and lose blatter control.

MMA so specific doesn't train to deal with the high-pressure life or death victim situations. Aikido doesn't generally, but it is more adaptable to do so. There are a variety of techniques, and Aikido's techniques are combat life and death stuff. It is those techniques are not taught that way.

So there you go. If your an MMA and interested in proving MMA better than Aikido, in the house of MMA. If your an Aikidoka you probably don't care, cause that is not what your about. What really beyond the talk either is ever faced in a high-pressure life or death situation where your targeted as the victim. What really matters is you don't lose at any cost no matter what you do, whether it be Aikido, or MMA or what ever you need to do to get the job done . Isn't that what really matters instead of all the goating and posturing.

Kevin Leavitt
08-23-2008, 11:12 AM
Phil,

Lots of over generalizations and assumptions I think. Specificallly about what aikido is/isn't and what MMA is/isn't.

that said, okay, you have your opinion and definitions and I can respect that.

Couple of comments:

1. You essentially state that MMA came from sport and aikido came from combat. Not necessarily true.

What you define as MMA (UFC type venues), actually are composites of many things (hence the MMA label). All traditional Sport systems, Greco-Roman, Judo, Free-style wrestling, TKD, Sambo, BJJ...all have their roots in Military or Martial Arts.

The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), which BTW had much influence on it from Heckler-Strozzi Sensei, and The Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) are true MMA philosophically based "Arts" have sport aspects to them, yet are designed to build warriors and instill/refine warrior ethos. Oh yea, and give some really cool skillz.

Drawing a line between sport and combat arts simply is not that easy and too dismissive concerning the importance that "sport" and competition play in the bigger picture of development of a person/martialist.

Phil wrote:

Regardless of your MMA or Aikido training if you have a gun pointed at your head you might freeze, and lose blatter control.

Well some of us know pretty much what we will do if we are still alive and have capacity to do something about it. Because we train with this endstate in mind. It is all about the endstate and goals of your training.....NOT the method (Sport VS DO/SU).

Phil wrote:

So there you go. If your an MMA and interested in proving MMA better than Aikido, it is in the house of MMA. If your an Aikidoka you probably don't care, cause that is not what your about. All that matters is if ever faced in a high-pressure life or death situation where your targeted as the victim you don't lose at any cost. Isn't that what really matters instead of all the goating and posturing?

Well apparently alot of Aikidoka DO care, as this is discussed alot here on aikiweb. Do I? not really, as from my definition of MMA aikido is methodology I use, as is BJJ, as is Judo, as is Greco Roman, as is Aunkai...all apart of MMA.

don't lose at any cost?

hmmm, well now lets get aiki philosophical...

"not lose at any cost"....that is really not part of the aikido philosophy now is it?

We have four basic scenarios:

1. Win/Lose
2. Lose/Win
3. Lose/Lose
4. Win/win

Aikido is really all about striving for Win/Win if you ask me. It may not be obtainable all the time, but I think that is why we study aikido.

If you are really concerned with this as a method to preserve life or "win at any cost", I really wonder why you waste your time with such a inefficient delivery mechanism for self defense. I'd go invest in more sophisticate defense systems and weaponery.

salim
08-23-2008, 11:32 AM
Oh oh...! Another MMA/BJJ vs. Aikido immortal monster of a thread thing. Gotta love 'em :D

I think this unresolvable question will live on for ever until:

1. Someone bastardizes* Aikido successfully for MMA fights (*don't know if the word is not exceptable, no insult intended. I am not intending to be profane. But the word works well with being without parent connection. Pls. excuse it, if it's seen as profane) .

2. All those who take both MMA and Aikido, and lean more to MMA than Aikido realize the two are worlds apart. That each came into its own at different points in time and culture. One is an art and the other is a combative sport. MMA train for a sport fighting competition, Aikido was never intended to do that. The composite Aikido that does compete wasn't intended for an Aikido venue and not MMA. MMA wasn't around when that style of Aikido was created. Therefore, those who want to make a living fighting or enjoy fighting as done accordingly to MMA rules, do MMA. Those who are looking for something else who isn't about becoming a fighter, but other things go to Aikido. Not everyone wants to do a Hell's Kitchen because they enjoy cooking.

Now shifting gears. If in a real self-defense situation on the street there is a possibility the situation will go to the ground. But keep in mind where Aikido came from. It came from real combat tested martial applications that where effective in killing the other guy. Not from a sport where the loser walks away from a ring with rules, ref, and judges that has to be commissioned to take place, without a medical staff at hand. Aikido techniques designed from that to be use in a time and place when there was a shift in Japanese society, long before MMA. This means that Aikido does have validity in a self-defense situation both like Ellis and William has said. More than likely, depending on your training in either MMA or Aikido you are attacked on the street you are likely to have the advantage. And that is what it all comes down to anyway, where you take them to the ground, or it goes to the ground, or it can't go to the ground or it doesn't go to the ground. The advantage I see Aikido has over MMA in a situation where you are standing is control, like using a come-a-long on a drunk.

The other thing I see like Ellis pointed out is the intensity of the situation being faced and using what ever you have because you are fighting for your life. I doubt very highly that if an Aikidoka happened to found him or herself on top of an attacker their instincts wouldn't kick in to "ground and pound." That is the natural instinct to punch viciously at the face of the guy on the bottom who was trying to kill you. In an intense life or death situation you don't what your going to do, or how you will react. Regardless of your MMA or Aikido training if you have a gun pointed at your head you might freeze, and lose blatter control.

MMA so specific doesn't train to deal with the high-pressure life or death victim situations. Aikido doesn't generally, but it is more adaptable to do so. There are a variety of techniques, and Aikido's techniques are combat life and death stuff. It is those techniques are not taught that way.

So there you go. If your an MMA and interested in proving MMA better than Aikido, in the house of MMA. If your an Aikidoka you probably don't care, cause that is not what your about. What really beyond the talk either is ever faced in a high-pressure life or death situation where your targeted as the victim. What really matters is you don't lose at any cost no matter what you do, whether it be Aikido, or MMA or what ever you need to do to get the job done . Isn't that what really matters instead of all the goating and posturing.

Phil,

What would you call Jeet Kune Do, which supersedes MMA by almost 30 years? It's a martial concept. Mixing different martial arts is nothing new. Use what is useful for defending yourself.

Bruce Lee never really competed, but mixed his arts years ago. MMA sport is mostly over zealous, commercialized media hype. Mixing martial arts for self defense purposes is praise worthy.

Buck
08-23-2008, 12:34 PM
Phil,

What would you call Jeet Kune Do, which supersedes MMA by almost 30 years? It's a martial concept. Mixing different martial arts is nothing new. Use what is useful for defending yourself.

Bruce Lee never really competed, but mixed his arts years ago. MMA sport is mostly over zealous, commercialized media hype. Mixing martial arts for self defense purposes is praise worthy.

I don't see how JKD applies. :) Both MMA and Aikido flow. JKD can save your life too. :)

salim
08-23-2008, 07:16 PM
Salim,

Sounds like you are on the right track in your training, IMO. It took me 15 years to figure out what you are figuring out in a short amount of time! (2 years Aikido, 7 months BJJ).

I am sure we would be in find much common ground on the mat for sure! Much can be lost in digits!

Mike Fooks does a good job of summarizing what I am trying to convey.

I tend to focus less on techniques such as the arm bar, but look at the whole of the situation. As you progress through Blue Belt, and advance up to purple you will become less concerned with individual techniques and more about position and setting up things two, three, and four moves ahead. You will also find that your set ups allow you multiple options in every position. that is arm bar, guillotine, and sweep from the same basic position.

It is natural to learn a new technique and then go out and look for a way to implement it...it is how we learn BJJ! Then your buddies shut it down and you have to go find a new one...and the cycle continues!

good luck and keep up the post, They are good!

I see your point and understand. Point well taken. Thanks and good luck also.

rob_liberti
08-23-2008, 09:03 PM
All things being equal, positional dominance is a primary goal. Positional dominance is so important because it tends to result (with normal people) in the situation where you tip the scales in terms of structural advantage.

These days, I'm much more interested in all things not being equal and having such a well trained body that I can prevail when I'm not in an initial position of dominance. Aiki *can* help with that. I haven't found typical aikido to provide much help in this area.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE aikido. I've dedicated my life to it. I do think that aikido will help you defend yourself. I just don't see how it can realistically help defend your loved ones. To me that is what makes MMA so critically important. Training aiki helps me with both.

Rob

Buck
08-23-2008, 10:39 PM
Phil,

Lots of over generalizations and assumptions I think. Specificallly about what aikido is/isn't and what MMA is/isn't.

I think that holds true more for many MMA, don't you with all these types of threads?

I would have to respectfully disagree because I am comment in the context of the thread.



Couple of comments:

1. You essentially state that MMA came from sport and aikido came from combat. Not necessarily true.

What you define as MMA (UFC type venues), actually are composites of many things (hence the MMA label). All traditional Sport systems, Greco-Roman, Judo, Free-style wrestling, TKD, Sambo, BJJ...all have their roots in Military or Martial Arts.


Sports like track and field, football and soccer, and things like, Go, Chess are martial for example too. The name MMA doesn't accurately represent the sport. There are no rules that say you have to use any specific fighting style. It is a sport, there are judges, rules, refs, a playing field and all the things that make it a sport. It should be call something like free style fighting, and not MMA because it is about fighting in a subscribed way. Honestly, I don't understand your point.

The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), which BTW had much influence on it from Heckler-Strozzi Sensei, and The Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) are true MMA philosophically based "Arts" have sport aspects to them, yet are designed to build warriors and instill/refine warrior ethos. Oh yea, and give some really cool skillz.

I thought it was based on BJJ and not MMA. The Marines I thought for decades used MMA for training. A mix of Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, and it included ground fighting skills too, etc. I don't know why the Marines want to switch to something that is highly specialized and narrow as taking the enemy to the ground. Why didn't they model after Krav Maga, proven not in a sports arena but by the Israeli Defense Forces. It is a MMA. Just because there is a change doesn't mean it is a good change.

Drawing a line between sport and combat arts simply is not that easy and too dismissive concerning the importance that "sport" and competition play in the bigger picture of development of a person/martialist.


But it is, a sport has rules, judges, ref. rules a playing field, or ring, it is a controlled competition. The goal is to win the competition and no one is seriously hurt or is killed, sportsmanship (well...can't have everything). The philosophy of sports share a common thread in Aikido, don't kill the other guy or team. Gee... O'Sensei was on to something wasn't he :eek:. Boy the idea of being civilized did work out for Aikido, cause today in most countries killing or injuring someone you happen to be fighting with is frown upon and can get you jail time. The US is sue happy, dang if ya took a guy to the ground and did some "ground and pound" or threw a blood choke on him or her for taking a parking place you wanted, You'd facing a Judge who isn't going to look fondly on what you did over a paking space.



Well apparently allot of Aikidoka DO care, as this is discussed allot here on aikiweb. Do I? not really, as from my definition of MMA aikido is methodology I use, as is BJJ, as is Judo, as is Greco Roman, as is Aunkai...all apart of MMA.


No, that isn't true. Allot of these threads are started by MMA guys, and it is only a handful of Aikidoka who care to answer. Do you realize how many people practice Aikido? If Aikido people cared there would be hundreds of Aikido people posting. The Aikido world is just not limited to that of Aikiweb.


don't lose at any cost?

"not lose at any cost"....that is really not part of the aikido philosophy now is it?


Your are right it isn't. What I was saying in a life and death high pressure situation where you are being targeted it is your instincts to survive, to protect yourself that makes you fight back, and not accept the victimization like you would getting the employee of the month award. You will fight and not lose at any cost. Unless you feel completely over powered and in some cases over whelmed with fear for your life. The relates to MMA and Aikido, depending on your level of and how your where trained, there is a high probability under a high-stress situation of life and death if you find yourself on top of the threat you will resort to what MMA has termed "ground and pound." Ground and pound is a very common almost instinctive way of fighting on the ground. You see allot of it on Youtube in women's street fights. It is instinctive as pulling hair and biting. So you will do what ever it takes to fight off an attack, you will NOT lose at any cost. This was all said in support of Ellis's comments. MMA doesn't deal at all in practice or principle for woman about to be raped- as Ellis referred to, use a hair pin and stab into the ear to stab the brain. MMA is about defeating your fellow competitor in the ring, and if you or your fellow competitor matched up by similar weight, size, and forte become too badly injured, or at the point submission the fight is stopped and a winner declared. Which the top fight venues are televised and UFC is making money hand over fist- can’t forget the purse money either.

Many MMA guys don't think there is a world outside a MMA fight. For them MMA is the be all and end all in fighting, and nothing else could possible exist. Very myopic isn't it? It is the same type of true criticism that some Aikidokas get for having their heads in the clouds. It is true for both that there are those who are not grounded in the reality of a high pressure life and death situation. Or understand that Aikido isn't and wasn't designed as a sport or a sports fighting venue.

I appreciate your response. It was a good one. Enjoyed the exhange.

Buck
08-23-2008, 11:08 PM
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE aikido. I've dedicated my life to it. I do think that aikido will help you defend yourself. I just don't see how it can realistically help defend your loved ones. To me that is what makes MMA so critically important.

Rob
This view is a sincere and honest view, but for me I wouldn't choose that route. Here is why for better or worse.

I don't see how MMA can realistically help you defend your loved ones? I don't think it is so critically important. I can see if your in a one-on-one situation with an attacker and you both end up on the ground MMA skills, like wrestling and newaza can work to get the upper hand. Lots of fights end up on the ground because both people don't have any solid fighting skills. You see it on Youtube and on the video shows that show stuff like a store clerk being attacked in a robbery. Knowing how to take someone to the ground is important, be it from a throw, a take-down, a trip, etc. MMA isn't doesn't have the only way. It is a composite art, for self defense purposes know how to wrestle is equally as good. You use a wrestler's take down move and then start swinging at the head.

I prefer have the other guy hit the concrete by himself, I don't want to go down with him. I want to stay standing. That is a dominant and advantageous position. Even Sun Tzu said let the other guys run up the mountain at you. In a self-defense situation standing has allot of advantages, mainly with keeping an eye on your environment incase someone else decides to attack. And if you have to face more then one person, which is very common today. Sure you have some of the same advantages sitting -as standing -on top of your attacker but how mobile are you pinning someone down underneath you with your body weight?

What if your protecting others, and your caught up fighting someone on the ground and the other guy goes after your loved ones. Being on the ground provides very little mobility and flexibility. It is also time consuming when seconds matter. You can knock someone out faster then choke them out, or other MMA moves on the ground. On the ground you are locked in with your attacker, and ground fights and go either way and back and forth very quickly. Like I said are time consuming in comparison.

The ground is the last place you want to be. If you find yourself there you need to escape and end it fast to get back on your feet as soon as possible to act as you need to inorder to protect your loved ones. And MMA isn't the only way to do it

Aristeia
08-24-2008, 03:41 AM
. It should be call something like free style fighting, and not MMA I agree it's somewhat unfortunate that the name MMA was what ended up sticking - it leads to all sorts of misunderstandings.

Why didn't they model after Krav Maga, proven not in a sports arena but by the Israeli Defense Forces. It is a MMA. Like this one. Krav Maga is not MMA

. The US is sue happy, dang if ya took a guy to the ground and did some "ground and pound" or threw a blood choke on him or her for taking a parking place you wanted, You'd facing a Judge who isn't going to look fondly on what you did over a paking space. but breaking someones wrist or arm over a parking space is ok? Or is it possible that we're not comparing apples with apples here?
Allot of these threads are started by MMA guys actually my observation is very few if any of these threads are started by "mma guys". Many of us respond to them, because we feel we have some info to offer on how aikido and bjj/mma sit in relation to each other - having trained in both. But pretty much all the threads are started by pure aikidoka wondering how their art will serve them in certain situations - or prospective aikidoka doing due diligence. This second group will continue to grow as the internet is now simply the number one resource for people looking for info on a new hobby. I think it's going to be increasingly important we're honest with such people.


if you find yourself on top of the threat you will resort to what MMA has termed "ground and pound." I'd prefer not to have to "find myself on top" so much as know some highly effective ways of ensuring that happens. like my coach says - hope is not a strategy.

Aristeia
08-24-2008, 03:42 AM
r. You can knock someone out faster then choke them out, or other MMA moves on the ground. On the ground you are locked in with your attacker, and ground fights and go either way and back and forth very quickly. Like I said are time consuming in comparison.

twhich is why MMA is a step up from BJJ for real world defence.

Kevin Leavitt
08-24-2008, 05:19 AM
Phil Wrote:

I thought it was based on BJJ and not MMA. The Marines I thought for decades used MMA for training. A mix of Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, and it included ground fighting skills too, etc. I don't know why the Marines want to switch to something that is highly specialized and narrow as taking the enemy to the ground. Why didn't they model after Krav Maga, proven not in a sports arena but by the Israeli Defense Forces. It is a MMA. Just because there is a change doesn't mean it is a good change.

No, MCMAP is based on alot of things. elements of LINES training, you will also find much in common with KM. BJJ is the base of the Army's program. Many Marines are doing BJJ as a base now as well as they are finding that it makes sense.

I don't know why the Marines want to switch to something that is highly specialized and narrow as taking the enemy to the ground

Highly specialized and narrow???

A mix of Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, and it included ground fighting skills too, etc.

Phil you are confusing me.

Anyway, it is very apparent you have a particular view of MMA and a beef with UFC. I got it.

MMA by nature and philosophy is NOT narrow and is NOT limited. IT can and does deal very realistically with multiple opponents, at least as well as aikido does...and i'd venture to say better as MMAer tend to and an higher level of "Aliveness" to there training.

I am alway curious if you can't defeat one guy, what make you think you will be able to all of a suddened deal with more than one?

No offense, but on the street with multiple opponents I think if I had my pick of someone to represent me as a proxy I'd pick Randy Coture over Phil Burgess.

I am betting that Randy has enough common sense to not "ground and pound" someone when he has a buddy.

MMA skills, like wrestling and newaza can work to get the upper hand. Lots of fights end up on the ground because both people don't have any solid fighting skills. You see it on Youtube and on the video shows that show stuff like a store clerk being attacked in a robbery. Knowing how to take someone to the ground is important, be it from a throw, a take-down, a trip, etc. MMA isn't doesn't have the only way.

again, you are all over the place here.

MMA skills include Wrestling and Newaza. Are you saying they don't or am I reading your sentence wrong? I surmise that you are saying they are outside of MMA by your last sentence that says "MMA doesn't have to be the only way".

MMA is a concept, not a Style, it is the style of no style. the orginial MMA, most woudl say would be JKD.

As a paradiqm, MMA, borrows whatever works from all arts. MMAers, like myself, will go to subject matter experts in many disciplines and learn from them in order to incorporate those aspects from the SMEs.

Kevin Leavitt
08-24-2008, 05:29 AM
Phil Wrote:

I prefer have the other guy hit the concrete by himself, I don't want to go down with him. I want to stay standing. That is a dominant and advantageous position. Even Sun Tzu said let the other guys run up the mountain at you. In a self-defense situation standing has allot of advantages, mainly with keeping an eye on your environment incase someone else decides to attack. And if you have to face more then one person, which is very common today. Sure you have some of the same advantages sitting -as standing -on top of your attacker but how mobile are you pinning someone down underneath you with your body weight?

Take a random survey of grapplers and BJJers, and you won't find one that will disagree with you.

The catch to the other guy hitting the concrete is that you want him to stay there. What good does it do to put him there, if he can get back up again and help his buddy? ever notice during randori that you eventually lose because Uke's keep coming at you over and over...you eventually get tired and they win?

So, the trick is keeping them there on the ground. If you are lucky you can slam the to the ground hard enough with a throw that they stay there because the land on their head or something. Again, BJJers and MMAer that have decent throws in their arsenals will grasp this concept as well as anyone.

Ever hear of knee on belly? a wonderful thing that we get points for in BJJ. Judo doesn't, but BJJ does. Why do you think that is that we give points for knee on belly in BJJ? 3 points too!

It shows the ability to control your opponent in a way that allows you to remain mobile.

Phil, I'd highly recommend going to a BJJ school and taking them your thoughts and questions. You will find that they will deal with them respectfullly and honestly. It was a huge eye opener for me!

rob_liberti
08-24-2008, 08:47 AM
This view is a sincere and honest view, but for me I wouldn't choose that route. Here is why for better or worse.

I don't see how MMA can realistically help you defend your loved ones? I don't think it is so critically important.
<snip>
What if your protecting others, and your caught up fighting someone on the ground and the other guy goes after your loved ones.
<snip>
The ground is the last place you want to be. If you find yourself there you need to escape and end it fast to get back on your feet as soon as possible to act as you need to inorder to protect your loved ones. And MMA isn't the only way to do it

I didn't say MMA is the only way to do it. Just my opinion is that it is the best way - especially when powered by aiki.

It looks to me like you think MMA is just ground fighting and I assure you that is not true. The ability to hit someone with a fight ending strike is also MMA. The ability to choke someone out while standing is also MMA. The ability to pull such things off while the other person is really trying to do such things or worse to you is also MMA.

I am NOT saying that if someone decides to attack my wife in the parking lot that I will try to wrestle with the guy. (I might, but that wouldn't be plan "A"). Imagine that situation. What aikido technique works so well for that? None of their energy is directed at you to work with/redirect/unify with/ etc. Are you going to try wristy-twisty devoid of unification on someone who isn't even attacking you? That would make you "uke". Are you going to reach into your aikido bag of tricks for attacking the guy? What would you do? The big over the head shomenuchi chop? The big same side step while punching? For god's sake, we practice symbolic attacks. Please don't bet the lives of your loved ones on your ability to deliver a devastating yokomenuchi. I can actually deliver those symbolic attacks with a decent amount of force and I would never even consider that.


Rob

Buck
08-24-2008, 09:03 AM
Krav Maga is not MMA



I was a bit confusing. MMA is a composite of different arts like Kevin pointed out. By that thinking then Krav Maga also is a composite system of different martial arts, which would make it a Mixed Marital Art. I don't think the name MMA is accurate for what is seen in venues like UFC. MMA is a sport, KM isn't. KM is what is better suited for the military use than MMA is.

That is what I was getting at.

Kevin Leavitt
08-24-2008, 09:38 AM
Thanks for the Clarification Phil. It was confusing.

Ironically, we in the Army moved away from KM type training as our base. Many reasons and it would take a while to go into it. Bottomline, it was not the best system for a weapons based army, nor did it do a good job of building macro muscle memory.

Remember when you have weapons at your disposal you create distance and use them. When you don't have that distance, every fight is a grappling fight. Either grappling for dominance to control, grappling to create distance to employ weapons, or grappling over weapons.

FWIW, when I say grappling, it does not imply "ground fighting" or "going to the ground". It includes a range of standup stuff to include pummelling, takedowns, and other stuff you see in stand up fights.

The threat or presence of weapons increases the grappling dynamic actually at close range. No one is really interested in the street fight scenario of trading blows.

Even in a street fight, I really am not too interested in trading blows. I hate getting hit, and I hate hitting as it hurts to hit skulls and things with your bare hands. I tend to like to either be in the fight...or out of the fight. I don't like in between when either I am hitting which means he can hit too! Move in (or out), gain control, subdue, and move out of range or on to the next thing.

Kevin Leavitt
08-24-2008, 09:39 AM
Oh and this. BTW, I don't street fight. I am talking about a non-military situation. I also assume the worst and weapons are involved. Rules of engagement might be different, but I approach the assumptions concerning weapons the same. At my age, I don't do the whole ego fight thing.

Aikibu
08-24-2008, 11:31 AM
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE aikido. I've dedicated my life to it. I do think that aikido will help you defend yourself. I just don't see how it can realistically help defend your loved ones. To me that is what makes MMA so critically important. Training aiki helps me with both.

Rob

This does not make much sense to me Rob. You've dedicated your life to something you don't believe will work when there comes a time to put the mustard on the hot dog?

Then there is that black hole of a concept that sucks in many an Aikiweb Discussion.

"Realistically."

I don't feel that same way at all. Aikido has saved my life on many an occasion and in more ways than one.

That being said I have allot more to learn. :)

William Hazen

Tim Fong
08-24-2008, 12:01 PM
[snip]Why didn't they model after Krav Maga, proven not in a sports arena but by the Israeli Defense Forces. It is a MMA. Just because there is a change doesn't mean it is a good change.

But it is, a sport has rules, judges, ref. rules a playing field, or ring, it is a controlled competition. [snip]
Phil,

You might be interested to know that the Krav Maga training center in Los Angeles incorporates a fully resistive, sport style fight training method, including a ground fighting program based on BJJ. An old friend of mine trained there a few years ago, and I remember him saying that some of the Krav guys there were....competing. At the very least, it's sparring style training.

Best,
Tim

gdandscompserv
08-24-2008, 12:12 PM
My son and I end up 'grappling' while playing randori quite often. Is it still aikido? Hmmm...I haven't gouged his eyes out, so it must not be aikido.;)

Buck
08-24-2008, 12:20 PM
Phil,

You might be interested to know that the Krav Maga training center in Los Angeles incorporates a fully resistive, sport style fight training method, including a ground fighting program based on BJJ. An old friend of mine trained there a few years ago, and I remember him saying that some of the Krav guys there were....competing. At the very least, it's sparring style training.

Best,
Tim

Tim,

I was talking about the USMC choosing BJJ over Krav Maga. Krav Maga would have been a better fit. Krav Maga already has wrestling moves in its composite. Point is why go with a sport that has no combat history or testing over a well tested system that has modern field combat tested success and history. Not all decisions are good.

bkedelen
08-24-2008, 01:41 PM
If you seriously need protection from grapplers, bring a knife and a friend.

Aristeia
08-24-2008, 01:53 PM
Tim,

I was talking about the USMC choosing BJJ over Krav Maga. Krav Maga would have been a better fit. Krav Maga already has wrestling moves in its composite. Point is why go with a sport that has no combat history or testing over a well tested system that has modern field combat tested success and history. Not all decisions are good.ummm....now I'm confused. You are saying the USMC made a bad choice in moving from KM to BJJ as a base? Despite someone like Kevin saying otherwise? What's your role within the military? I must have missed that.

rob_liberti
08-24-2008, 02:24 PM
This does not make much sense to me Rob. You've dedicated your life to something you don't believe will work when there comes a time to put the mustard on the hot dog?

Then there is that black hole of a concept that sucks in many an Aikiweb Discussion.

"Realistically."

I don't feel that same way at all. Aikido has saved my life on many an occasion and in more ways than one.

That being said I have allot more to learn. :)

William Hazen

Well I think aikido works well enough to defend myself.
Defending others (as opposed to self-defense) is a whole different thing. I went on to plenty of examples in a subsequent post. It was directed at someone else, but I'd be happy to read your reply to that as well.

Rob

DH
08-24-2008, 04:19 PM
Picture of O'sensei on the ground (newaza). It looks like he is defending himself to me. I think if an Aikidoka found himself on the ground he/she would do something similar to this picture.

Well, this is Ueshiba performing Daito ryu jujutsu when he was actively teaching and handing out mokuroku scrolls in Daito ryu to all his deshi before the war.
This is from the period many still mistakenly refer to as "Pre-war Aikido."
Also worthy of note is every human being who was actually there and training with him-all the early Aikido giants- told Stan as far as they were concerned and knew "They were doing Daito ryu." Some even considered themselves Takeda Sokaku's students-through the Ueshiba connection.
Doesn't much matter any more, but the early denials and myths seem still to be what it taught and passed along.

As far as AIkido doing these things on the ground. That is interesting. What he is doing is a blood choke or sleeper. I'm not a big fan of the position his body is in, but that's neither here nor there. I would not consider that normal in the majority of aikido schools. Further, the manner by which the constriction is gained and held is not the same as any jujutsu I have seen or the way aikido folks tend to move.. It is done with opposing aiki-age and aiki-sage from the knees, back, sides, or if I could reposition him- his feet, and leaves the attacker's hands, arms, shoulders and body very relaxed and fluid for positional changes.

I maintain aikido has great potential against grapplers. It is, in and of itself, a grappling art. It would just take learning aiki as power and then how to control agression differently then is typically seen. It appears many are at least attempting to do it, albiet by adopting more external fighting methods instead of using aiki...do

Kevin Leavitt
08-24-2008, 04:49 PM
Just to clarify, the USMC does not have BJJ as it base. It did not develop the program this way.

The Army's program does however, have BJJ as it's base. However it is NOT BJJ and is a progressive and comprehensive system.

The Army has over 700 documented cases of Hand to Hand combat in the last 5 years. Many of those attributed their success to the MACP training they recieved.

So it is combat proven and is does work.

Yes, I agree Dan aikido as a methodology has great potential and I agree it is a Grappling art. Having worked with Ark for a weekend, I would agree with you.

Matt Wong
08-24-2008, 06:49 PM
Uhm in reply to the original question,

aikido can certainly be used when on the ground, a couple of my teachers showed how the same principals used when upright can be applied for ground fighting and I was surprised...but it works really well.

I'm only in high school, but I must say that when I was on the wrestling team aikido was very helpful.

Anyway I know nothing about MMA, BBJ, and etc. so this is just a side note I guess.

-matt

Buck
08-24-2008, 08:00 PM
Just to clarify, the USMC does not have BJJ as it base. It did not develop the program this way.

The Army's program does however, have BJJ as it's base. However it is NOT BJJ and is a progressive and comprehensive system.

The Army has over 700 documented cases of Hand to Hand combat in the last 5 years. Many of those attributed their success to the MACP training they recieved.

So it is combat proven and is does work.
.

Thanks Kevin for that. No sense in split hairs, and I don't know the military program in detail of how much of it and to what extent is MMA/BJJ, etc. I still think that what the military training (also mix martial arts) had prior to MMA/BJJ worked and had thousands of proven cases from what WWI to post-vietnam. Why reinvent the wheel? I still think Krav Maga would have been a better choice over MMA/BJJ. But, that is neither hear nor there.

Thanks for the replies it keeps the interest up.

Buck
08-24-2008, 08:05 PM
I do see that an Aikidoka can defend themselves against a grappler. Often it is assumed that anyone one who is a grappler, and I am thinking its MMA/BJJ grappler is at the top contender's level. The fact is most MMA/BJJ isn't even near that level. There are a host of all sorts of things involved in the question.

FWIW: In grappling you have a short shelf life. It is a young man's game. You peak early. Aikido is the opposite. Then what is defeat considered, avoiding a grappler's entry, where he misses his grab. In the original question there was a "what if" you fell to the ground. Well if I fell, I sure in the heck wouldn't lay there. I would get up back on my feet as soon as possible.

The floop: And in the question is it assumed the grappler is at the advantage and the Aikidoka is at the disadvantage because he fell to the ground. Well what if the grappler was caught in gee...off the top of my head, say a Munetsuki Kaitenage for example, cause there are so many Aikido techniques. The drunken grappler chooses first wimp he can easily defeat, with one punch.

Here is how it happened: The grappler was drinking at the bar and was pissed because his girl friend took off with another guy and the grappler needed to take it out on someone and targeted someone who he thought he could take, say that wimpy looking guy that walked by him 5 mins ago and when hunting for him. The grappler in his gross miscalculations of his target throws a punch at the Aikidoka and is thrown to the ground.

Rewind: More accurately, the Aikidoka was aware of his bar environment and had already pegged the grappler as a threat. He left the bar and was gone before the grappler even began looking to attack him. Bingo, the grappler is defeated.

To be fair, let's say the Aikidoka couldn't leave the bar to avoid the drunken grappler. The Aikidoka is the other guy the grappler's girl friend had hooked up earlier and she had to stop and to say good-bye to a girl friend. The engaged drunken grappler of course is following close behind charging like a train going after the Aikidoka. The Aikidoka knows this, waits for the drunken grappler to make his move. The drunken furious grappler takes a swing at the Aikidoka and as he does he slips and falls on his butt on a spilled drink to the bar floor. What does the Aikidoka do next? He takes the principles and concepts he learned in Aikido and applies them, he walks a way with the girl as the drunken grappler lays there staring up at ceilings sprawled out on the bar floor.

The river: What I want to know is what a grappler does when a gun is pointed at his back? Purpose of that is grappling has it weaknesses and flaws. Grappling doesn't make you Superman.

There are Aikibunnies living in bubbles, and there are MMAbunnies living in bubbles too and I don't think MMA hasn't realized it. MMA is not immune.

Will Prusner
08-24-2008, 08:47 PM
...waits for the drunken grappler to make his move.

Why wait? If one of the principles behind Aikido is to enter, implying a proactive mindset, and it's clear that a physical confrontation is imminent, why not step up to the plate and control the situation?

Seems to me a better solution than standing around and waiting for a takedown.

We train (at the dojo I attend) to influence if possible, how, when and where we are attacked, on our terms. Give attacker an obvious target in order to draw an attack. Better than waiting around for whatever the attacker decides to throw. We do want to go home with the girl eventually right? I'd rather not stand around all night waiting for attacker to decide how he wants to go about it (it could take awhile depending on the person and their level of drunkenness).

A true warrior fights on his own terms, or not at all.

Don't box a boxer... and don't grapple with a grappler, either.

W.

Aristeia
08-24-2008, 09:19 PM
FWIW: In grappling you have a short shelf life. It is a young man's game. You peak early. Aikido is the opposite. Then what is defeat considered, avoiding a grappler's entry, where he misses his grab. In the original question there was a "what if" you fell to the ground. Well if I fell, I sure in the heck wouldn't lay there. I would get up back on my feet as soon as possible.

Interested to know what you base this belief on? My BJJ coach is over 50 and will smoke 90% of the population. Helio last I heard was still rolliing into his 80s.

It's a common misconception. Because BJJ "looks" to be about strength people assume is for youngsters. But looks are of course decieving. It's also decieving to walk into a BJJ school and notice the average age - but that is more about the relative newness of BJJ to the western world than anything else.

The floop:

umm...is it me or did you just use an elaborate hypothetical to prove something? Sorry I missed the point? Is it simply that the chances of getting into a serious altercation that you can't avoid with another trained martial artist is negligeable? In which case I would agree for most of us.
The river: What I want to know is what a grappler does when a gun is pointed at his back?

you're right, no MA is highly reliable against attackers with weapons. I doubt you'd find any BJJer or MMAer that disagrees. In fact you'll probably find many more Aikidoka who think they can deal with weapons than bjj/mmaers. So again I'm confused as to the point.

Kevin Leavitt
08-24-2008, 09:32 PM
I'm 43. My Black Belt is 60. I compete in judo and BJJ.

Randy Coture is what...44?

Aikibu
08-24-2008, 09:33 PM
Santos Flaniken The MMA/Judo Teacher I work with on occasion is almost 60 and can still flip up to his feet (without using his hands) from the guard...There is not a stud in his class he can't submit.

http://take-down.com/bio.htm

To his credit Santos is always bugging me to get in top condition since We Aikido Dudes tend to be "softer" than most Martial Artists. :D

It's amazing what one can do if one stays in shape. :)

William Hazen

Buck
08-24-2008, 10:33 PM
I'm 43. My Black Belt is 60. I compete in judo and BJJ.

Randy Coture is what...44?

Kudos to Randy. He is not the norm though. How old is Lindell approaching 40, 41? Even he is part of the elite.

I caused a bit of misinformation, BJJ/MMA is a young man's sport. That is most pro fighters in their careers are peaking in their mid thirties if they stick with it that long. With some of the exceptions like Couture and Lindell. Which are really icons for how we think about age.

Aikido you can get better with age. And I think the major weakness in Aikido is the lack of attention to physical condition, i.e. being in shape. There are a lot of overweight Aikidoka's out there, I watch allot of Youtube. In fact, I seen a couple of such guys in real life! It was last night at a local pub, they were visiting from out of town. who was out of town . One guy was wearing his dojo T-shirt. And his beer belly dwarfted mine. But I had the other guys beat. :D I have yet to see a serious MMA/BJJ with that size of a beer belly. :) But then again they don't understand the demands there are on the kind of training that it takes to "keep your center." :D

Buck
08-24-2008, 10:43 PM
So again I'm confused as to the point.

The point was putting the shoe on the other foot in regard to the original question. That is reverse the fallacy and assumption in the original question, turn the tables. :D

Tim Fong
08-24-2008, 10:50 PM
And his beer belly dwarfted mine. But I had the other guys beat. :D I have yet to see a serious MMA/BJJ with that size of a beer belly. :) But then again they don't understand the demands there are on the kind of training that it takes to "keep your center." :D

Philip, (or do you prefer Phil?)

Right. So what kind of training would that be? How does it give an older person an advantage over someone moving faster? And how would that help one defend against a grappler? Assuming that one somehow thinks of aikido as distinct from grappling?

Best,
Tim

Buck
08-24-2008, 10:53 PM
Why wait? If one of the principles behind Aikido is to enter, implying a proactive mindset, and it's clear that a physical confrontation is imminent, why not step up to the plate and control the situation?

Seems to me a better solution than standing around and waiting for a takedown.

W.

I said, "wait" as a symbolic representation of Aikido being defensive, letting the opponent make the first move, and not offensive/aggressive as demonstrated by the grapplers actions to attack. And to show that there is a greater dynamic stuff going on in Aikido like awareness. The grappler was not aware and rushed the Aikido who was waiting for the grappler to rush out of rage and ego and out of control and likely to make a fatal mistake. Where as the Aikidoka was calm and collected, thus in control, waiting for the grappler to commit to a fatal mistake. It is a classical fighting strategy. "Waiting" is a symbolic device in this case. :)

Buck
08-24-2008, 10:57 PM
Philip, (or do you prefer Phil?)

Right. So what kind of training would that be? How does it give an older person an advantage over someone moving faster? And how would that help one defend against a grappler? Assuming that one somehow thinks of aikido as distinct from grappling?

Best,
Tim

Tim,

Phil is fine, less key strokes. I am not sure if your are joking. I was joking. Ya know, keeping the center...excuse for keeping the beer belly going kind of thing.. ha..ha.. :D

Will Prusner
08-25-2008, 12:36 AM
I said, "wait" as a symbolic representation of Aikido being defensive, letting the opponent make the first move, and not offensive/aggressive as demonstrated by the grapplers actions to attack. And to show that there is a greater dynamic stuff going on in Aikido like awareness. The grappler was not aware and rushed the Aikido who was waiting for the grappler to rush out of rage and ego and out of control and likely to make a fatal mistake. Where as the Aikidoka was calm and collected, thus in control, waiting for the grappler to commit to a fatal mistake. It is a classical fighting strategy. "Waiting" is a symbolic device in this case. :)

Maybe it's cause i've read "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" far too many times, but if I know a fight is certain and unavoidable before the other guy does, then I've got the upper hand. I certainly wouldn't give that advantage away by not taking appropriate action. I believe that knowing that the fight is imminent before the other guy, a definite example of awareness. I don't consider Aikido a "defensive" martial art. I don't think a "defensive" martial art even exists or would be very effective if it did. The way we practice technique in class is not realistic for what happens (oh my god, i can't believe i'm about to say this... here it goes...) on "the street". But that's okay, it's not supposed to be. In an actual confrontation, it's of more value to know that the person intends to attack and do something, anything about it before they do, rather than wait around for them to do something and then react to it. As you stated, if you let them decide how they want to attack you, they might choose with a gun or knife. In which case, you're screwed. I'd rather have them laid out on the floor, and let the police find the gun on them once they arrive.

I think this Aikido v. Grappler match-up is a classic case of "it isnt the martial art, it's the martial artist". I also believe its unrealistic and irresponsible to conform absolutely to the techniques of any particular martial art. I bet that just cause a person is currently enrolled in a BJJ dojo, he wouldn't hesitate to use any and all available and effective techniques, including the TKD that he took when he was nine and the boxing his dad taught him in the backyard, when he comes to attack. I like Aikido because the principles behind the technique translate so well to everything, fighting, cooking, walking up stairs, etc. They make me better at, and give me deeper insight into all the other skills i've acquired and will acquire in the future.

W.

Aristeia
08-25-2008, 06:02 AM
The point was putting the shoe on the other foot in regard to the original question. That is reverse the fallacy and assumption in the original question, turn the tables. :D

Umm....wouldn't the reverse to the original post be "do you think a grappler could defend himself against aikido techniques"?

Or are you suggesting an Aikidoka vs a grappler is a similar advantage differential to a grappler vs a gun to the back?

Demetrio Cereijo
08-25-2008, 06:03 AM
I said, "wait" as a symbolic representation of Aikido being defensive, letting the opponent make the first move,...

Same stances as in No. 1. (Fill yourself with ki, assume a hanmi stance with your feet apart, opened at a sixty-degree angle, and face your opponent with a flexible aiki posture.)
Tori: Step out on your right foot and strike directly at your opponent's face with your right te-gatana and punch his ribs with your left fist.
Uke: Receive your opponent's attack with the right arm.
Tori: Put strength in your right arm and cut down sharply, holding your opponent's wrist and controlling his right elbow. Step in to his right with your left foot, keeping his right arm against your body, and pull him to your front. Move forward and pin him to the ground. (This is called Pin Number One.) You can then pin your partner's right arm with your legs and strike his neck with your right te-gatana.

Seems the founder saw things differently.

Aristeia
08-25-2008, 06:06 AM
The way we practice technique in class is not realistic for what happens (oh my god, i can't believe i'm about to say this... here it goes...) on "the street". But that's okay, it's not supposed to be. In an actual confrontation, it's of more value to know that the person intends to attack and do something, anything about it before they do, rather than wait around for them to do something and then react to it. ..... I bet that just cause a person is currently enrolled in a BJJ dojo, he wouldn't hesitate to use any and all available and effective techniques, including the TKD that he took when he was nine and the boxing his dad taught him in the backyard, when he comes to attack
W.

You see in lies the problem I imo. It's thinking I remember having very clearly at one stage of my aikido career. The mindset that "we train in this way, but in a real altercation we'll make all these changes to our technique".

But I'm afraid it's just not that realistic. I think one of the top advantages bjjers and MMAer have that have driven their success in limited rules, is that when it really hits the fan there is much less "adjustment" that is needed. They can pretty much fight how they train. Whereas some other arts tried to make the adjustments on the fly but in an adrenalised situation.........no good.

I dont' think an MMAer will use the TKD he did when he was nine or the boxing his dad taught him. He will do whatever he's been training to do for the last six months consistantly.

DH
08-25-2008, 09:14 AM
Seems the founder saw things differently.
Ueshiba Morihei wrote:
Same stances as in No. 1. (Fill yourself with ki, assume a hanmi stance with your feet apart, opened at a sixty-degree angle, and face your opponent with a flexible aiki posture.)
Tori: Step out on your right foot and strike directly at your opponent's face with your right te-gatana and punch his ribs with your left fist.
Uke: Receive your opponent's attack with the right arm.
Tori: Put strength in your right arm and cut down sharply, holding your opponent's wrist and controlling his right elbow. Step in to his right with your left foot, keeping his right arm against your body, and pull him to your front. Move forward and pin him to the ground. (This is called Pin Number One.) You can then pin your partner's right arm with your legs and strike his neck with your right te-gatana.

Isn't it interesxting that we see in the above that *Tori* attacks?
Uke receives
Then Tori uses Uke's defense and pins.
What?
Joined with other instances of him visiting the Kodoakn to "play" with the boys and dislocating a guys hip, and teaching assasins, It lends further credence that his message about peace -taken in context of Japan's right wing self-proclaimed superiority- was a bit different then what is commonly believed.

Self defense, and peace and how to effectively acheive it can mean many things to different people.
LIke attacking first.

DH
08-25-2008, 09:28 AM
Just wanted to comment on the aikidoka who waited for the grappler to "charge in."
Having played with many of both test examples, I would not fashion a model over one instance.
Most grapplers I know are intelligent, self-controlled and would be assessing the situation and probably not get involved.
Most Aikidoka I've met would more than likely get tuned by a well trained grappler.
I never bet, but were I forced to place odds by what I know- I would bet on the grappler every time.

All that said. People are full of surprises.
There is a time for pro-actively attacking first-most of the time;)
To include; moving outside of range and peppering punches and kicks. If they do not deck the man, will lead to set ups to throw, choke or lock.
Now if we raise the issue of real aiki.
Aikido at least has the potential (not the way it is commonly practiced though) for having devastating striking power and very effective throw resistance.
I'd like to see the "gap" much closer than I believe it is now.

Norton
08-25-2008, 10:13 AM
You see in lies the problem I imo. It's thinking I remember having very clearly at one stage of my aikido career. The mindset that "we train in this way, but in a real altercation we'll make all these changes to our technique".


That's what we also do, and I agree with you. And unfortunately, I can't see any solution for this.

I think that we should have more realistic attacks in practice. But that decision's left to the instructors, I guess.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-25-2008, 10:20 AM
...Like attacking first.
Don't forget to "fill yourself with ki" before ;)

Will Prusner
08-25-2008, 03:55 PM
I dont' think an MMAer will use the TKD he did when he was nine or the boxing his dad taught him. He will do whatever he's been training to do for the last six months consistantly.

Maybe an "MMAer" wouldn't. However, a sagacious martial artist would use the appropriate tool at the appropriate time. Why not use the skills you already possess, simply because you are currently engaged in acquiring new ones?

I also disagree that the techniques can't be effectively tweaked on the fly. If the MMAer is in fear of his life and sees the opportunity for an eye gouge, to rip an ear off, a bite, he may decide to use these tools even though he hasn't been training that way in class. Why would the aikidoka be any different?

I agree that the lack of opportunities to train with realistic attacks is frustrating. However, I see attempting to practice technique against every type of realistic attack you might encounter as at least as unrealistic as what is practiced at large. How the person attacks is ultimately out of my hands, therefore, I try to focus on what I have control over: my posture, alignment, extension, to name a few.

What I think is more realistic (and attainable) is a simulation of an attack with the center, not the arm. The arm has too many possibilities, the center is much more predictable and it's realistic movement easier to simulate

W..

ramenboy
08-25-2008, 05:02 PM
i remember reading a great interview with mits yamashita sensei. he talked about his various students. he could beat them with his aikido against theirs, but in order to be able to face a wrestler, he learned to wrestle, and incorporated that into his curriculum. in order to face a boxer, he learned to box and incorporated that.

he met helio gracie and said he felt like 0-sensei but on the ground. so he learned to grapple and incorporated that.

i've met tons of aikido instructors who make it a point to say 'you should never go to the ground.' i've only met one instructor who's been able to teach 'so lets work on what happens if you do end up there.' and i continue to practice with him

Aristeia
08-25-2008, 06:00 PM
Maybe an "MMAer" wouldn't. However, a sagacious martial artist would use the appropriate tool at the appropriate time. Why not use the skills you already possess, simply because you are currently engaged in acquiring new ones?
you're right that makes perfect sense. And completely misses the point. Which is that in the middle of a fight - logical considerations don't come into it. In an adrenalised state you won't be thinking "hey that boxing dad taught me 30 years ago maybe I should dust that off". You'll be on autopilot and defaulting to the things you have most recently been training consistantly. Unless of course you acheive a strong enough positional dominance that allows you to "collect your thoughts". But at that point the fight is pretty much won.

Ask anyone who's competed in a sport art what the difference is between what they do when they're in learning mode vs what shows up in competitoin. It's the stuff that you've been drilling for the last x amount of time, day in and day out that shows up, even if you planned going in to try your fancy new sweep.

And a "street" confrontation takes that phenomenum to the next level. It's not about what it's smart or not smart to do - it's about how human physiology and psychology operates under stress.

salim
08-25-2008, 06:49 PM
I do see that an Aikidoka can defend themselves against a grappler. Often it is assumed that anyone one who is a grappler, and I am thinking its MMA/BJJ grappler is at the top contender's level. The fact is most MMA/BJJ isn't even near that level. There are a host of all sorts of things involved in the question.

FWIW: In grappling you have a short shelf life. It is a young man's game. You peak early. Aikido is the opposite. Then what is defeat considered, avoiding a grappler's entry, where he misses his grab. In the original question there was a "what if" you fell to the ground. Well if I fell, I sure in the heck wouldn't lay there. I would get up back on my feet as soon as possible.

The floop: And in the question is it assumed the grappler is at the advantage and the Aikidoka is at the disadvantage because he fell to the ground. Well what if the grappler was caught in gee...off the top of my head, say a Munetsuki Kaitenage for example, cause there are so many Aikido techniques. The drunken grappler chooses first wimp he can easily defeat, with one punch.

Here is how it happened: The grappler was drinking at the bar and was pissed because his girl friend took off with another guy and the grappler needed to take it out on someone and targeted someone who he thought he could take, say that wimpy looking guy that walked by him 5 mins ago and when hunting for him. The grappler in his gross miscalculations of his target throws a punch at the Aikidoka and is thrown to the ground.

Rewind: More accurately, the Aikidoka was aware of his bar environment and had already pegged the grappler as a threat. He left the bar and was gone before the grappler even began looking to attack him. Bingo, the grappler is defeated.

To be fair, let's say the Aikidoka couldn't leave the bar to avoid the drunken grappler. The Aikidoka is the other guy the grappler's girl friend had hooked up earlier and she had to stop and to say good-bye to a girl friend. The engaged drunken grappler of course is following close behind charging like a train going after the Aikidoka. The Aikidoka knows this, waits for the drunken grappler to make his move. The drunken furious grappler takes a swing at the Aikidoka and as he does he slips and falls on his butt on a spilled drink to the bar floor. What does the Aikidoka do next? He takes the principles and concepts he learned in Aikido and applies them, he walks a way with the girl as the drunken grappler lays there staring up at ceilings sprawled out on the bar floor.

The river: What I want to know is what a grappler does when a gun is pointed at his back? Purpose of that is grappling has it weaknesses and flaws. Grappling doesn't make you Superman.

There are Aikibunnies living in bubbles, and there are MMAbunnies living in bubbles too and I don't think MMA hasn't realized it. MMA is not immune.

Phil,

You continue to mix MMA and BJJ together and they are not the same. Mixing martial arts is just that, mixing.

Another note, BJJ is not based on strength and speed necessarily. An older person in there 50s and 60s can utilize BJJ techniques much like an Aikidoka can, as they age. It's about how one moves there body, looking for opportunities to execute a technique.

Kevin Leavitt
08-25-2008, 06:49 PM
William P wrote:

I also disagree that the techniques can't be effectively tweaked on the fly. If the MMAer is in fear of his life and sees the opportunity for an eye gouge, to rip an ear off, a bite, he may decide to use these tools even though he hasn't been training that way in class. Why would the aikidoka be any different?


THey wouldn't be any different. That is the issue. IMO, it requires little or no skill to implement these tools (eye gouges, bittling, punching). NOt that there is not skill in punching...but the skill comes not from the arm moving back and forth, but from the body position and dynamic. As Dan would say...if you do it with aiki...well...

That is the point the guy that has better skills at positional dominance and control of his AND your body, is the one who has better access to these "tools" AND will more than likely win (unless the other guy has a buddy, gun, knife or some other thing to tilt the equation).

I agree that the lack of opportunities to train with realistic attacks is frustrating. However, I see attempting to practice technique against every type of realistic attack you might encounter as at least as unrealistic as what is practiced at large. How the person attacks is ultimately out of my hands, therefore, I try to focus on what I have control over: my posture, alignment, extension, to name a few

Might be semantics, but I see this as fatalistic really. You had better have control over your opponents posture, alignment, and all that if you expect to come out on top. I know that all the various self help books (which I love) talk about "the only thing you can really control is you"...however, in a fight, you'd had better be controlling more the YOU if YOU expect to survive.

paw
08-25-2008, 06:56 PM
Another note, BJJ is not based on strength and speed necessarily. An older person in there 50s and 60s can utilize BJJ techniques much like an Aikidoka can, as they age. It's about how one moves there body, looking for opportunities to execute a technique.

As an aside, one of the most impressive things I've personally seen was a then 70-something Helio Gracie completely dominating a younger, larger, athletic 20-something while Helio was talking with his grandson.

Regards,

Paul

Kevin Leavitt
08-25-2008, 06:57 PM
Kudos to Randy. He is not the norm though. How old is Lindell approaching 40, 41? Even he is part of the elite.

I caused a bit of misinformation, BJJ/MMA is a young man's sport. That is most pro fighters in their careers are peaking in their mid thirties if they stick with it that long. With some of the exceptions like Couture and Lindell. Which are really icons for how we think about age.

Aikido you can get better with age. And I think the major weakness in Aikido is the lack of attention to physical condition, i.e. being in shape. There are a lot of overweight Aikidoka's out there, I watch allot of Youtube. In fact, I seen a couple of such guys in real life! It was last night at a local pub, they were visiting from out of town. who was out of town . One guy was wearing his dojo T-shirt. And his beer belly dwarfted mine. But I had the other guys beat. :D I have yet to see a serious MMA/BJJ with that size of a beer belly. :) But then again they don't understand the demands there are on the kind of training that it takes to "keep your center." :D

Again, be careful in your logic and conclusions based on limited observation. I can see how you might draw this conclusion.

I agree, young guys will always be faster, stronger etc, and will on a whole do better at competition. Of course.

The real issue I have is your division of things along the lines of "Aikido" "BJJ/MMA" as if some how two methodogies, (yes methodologies) some how are distinctive enough to give different advantages and skills to deal with the same basic conditions...that is physical violence. It simply is not so.

What you observe is older guys being better at Aikido as aikido as an art is all about the methodology to acheive aiki (which we all debate what that really means) (I tend to agree with Dan Harden, Mike Sigman, and the "2 Robs" these days).

What you are dismissing, whether you do it or not, is the "old guys" in BJJ that are actually "getting better with age" along the same critteria that you are using to judge aikido.

Helio, Rorian, my instructor, the Machados, Carlos, Carlson (deceased) all got/or are getting better as they gain the wisdom of age. Get with Jacare Cavlacanti in Atlanta, a 6th Dan in his 50s and a majority of the "20 somethings" that are studs can't touch him.

In a "competition" like UFC, sure none can compete with the young guys in that venue. Nor could any Aikidoka...young or old.

Make sure you are applying the same criteria and conditions and keep them consistent as you make your arguments.

You can't have it both ways. You assume that there is nothing else to BJJ/MMA than fighting in the ring. You are wrong in that respect.

Buck
08-25-2008, 07:24 PM
Just wanted to comment on the aikidoka who waited for the grappler to "charge in."

Most grapplers I know are intelligent, self-controlled and would be assessing the situation and probably not get involved.

Most Aikidoka I've met would more than likely get tuned by a well trained grappler.

I never bet, but were I forced to place odds by what I know- I would bet on the grappler every time.

All that said. People are full of surprises.
There is a time for pro-actively attacking first-most of the time;)
To include; moving outside of range and peppering punches and kicks. If they do not deck the man, will lead to set ups to throw, choke or lock.
Now if we raise the issue of real aiki.
Aikido at least has the potential (not the way it is commonly practiced though) for having devastating striking power and very effective throw resistance.
I'd like to see the "gap" much closer than I believe it is now.

Dan says some good things. All of what he wrote, and the stuff in bold text, highlights what I am talking about when I said putting the shoe on the other foot. Dan, captures and frames very well the anti-Aikido prejudice and myopic view point of Aikido that is really unrealistic by many MMA.

My point is to place that one-sided view of those MMA guys who don't look in the mirror and criticize Aikido. For those MMA guys who have this view to always place MMA in a better light over Aikido is very unrealistic. Not everyone who practices MMA wins in a fight.

Aikido has it's faults, the same faults MMA has. Not every MMA fighter is a good fighter, in great condition, and training realistically, or sees themselves realistically Just because you do MMA makes you a fighting god that can handle any and all situations. MMA aren't Ph.D.s, few pros like Chuck Lindell have degrees, most don't. And look at the MMA culture, look at TapouT for example. It ain't MasterPiece Theater. Really many MMA have to look in the mirror and see they are living in fantasy and vicariously through the MMA pros. It is starting to look like pro-wrestling's fan base with all the MMA blind hero worshiping.

No art is perfect, and no one is perfect. Aikido doesn't have faults. The faults lay in the individual. MMA as a sport, MMA is a complete sport, and it doesn't have faults, the faults lay in the individual. Each individual has a right to train as they wish, and pick the sytle they wish to train in and with whom.

I've rattled on enough now. I hope those who post such one-sided, baiting, anti-Aikido threads stop for a moment before they post and look in the mirror. I hope they think about the criticisms they will be saying are the same criticisms for MMA.

Peace.

Aristeia
08-25-2008, 08:18 PM
.

I've rattled on enough now. I hope those who post such one-sided, baiting, anti-Aikido threads stop for a moment before they post and look in the mirror. I hope they think about the criticisms they will be saying are the same criticisms for MMA.

Peace.there's alot I could have responded to in that post but lets stick with this.
Firstly I still get the feeling you think there's a bunch of MMAers starting up threads to bash aikido. which is patently untrue. But when people like the OP ask the question - we give our perstective.

As for "the criticisms they will be saying are the same criticisms for MMA" on the face of it this seems ..umm..less than obvious. Sure BJJ/MMA isn't perfect, but that's not to say that it is imperfect in exaclty the same way Aikido is. BJJ/MMA is better for some things, Aikido is better for other things.

here's the question though. When these discussions come up - why is it that *everyone* who has a degree of experience in both Aikido (by which I mean a dan grade in aikido and at least a blue belt in bjj) have the same perspective? is it possible there's something in that?

Buck
08-25-2008, 09:21 PM
Michael,

I haven't had a chance to see your webpage until now. Nice BJJ page. You guys are Machado. Your place is really nice. Looks like you have a big group there coach at the GroundControl Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I recommend people hit it.

I understand what your saying, I hope you understand what I am saying. If we want to talk about MMA and Aikido it has to be on neutral ground. The original question was a loaded one, with a strong prejudice against Aikido. Not a particular Aikidoka, but Aikido. It is evident when a question phrased in the same kind of why about MMA it go over well with MMA. Yea, it is a hard pill to swallow, but it is good medicine. A good shot in the arm. Turn-about-is fair play.

Like I said, is there Aikidoka that are Aikibunnies, sure. But that isn't Aikido. Is there MMAbunnies, sure. But that isn't MMA. Let's not confuse the individual with the art or sport. If criticism are to be made, make them fair and honest. Neither the art or the sport are the be all and end all.

And in what street situation would an Aikidoka fall when facing a grappler. In what situation would a Aikidoka face a grappler? Wow, how plausible is that? The only time I could think of that is remotely plausible is in a bar in the scenario I described. I have yet to hear about such an event. And that is why it was posted here because I think a street situation it is really rare.

If the picture that Kevin paints of MMA grapplers/fighters, it should never happen then that a Aikidoka would face-off with a grappler on the street. I really think the original question is a weak one. I think what would be a better "what if' question would be looking at something on Youtube like what David Valadez started http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=214306#post214306 and say what techniques from MMA or Aikido would be used to handle the situation. That would be a better use of our time and knowledge.

Kevin Leavitt
08-25-2008, 09:40 PM
Phil wrote:

say what techniques from MMA or Aikido would be used to handle the situation. That would be a better use of our time and knowledge.

I couldn't answer that question as I don't have a technique oriented paradiqm...all I see is principles and the dynamics of the situation.

What techniques exist in aikido that do not exist in MMA and vice versa?

We can discuss the realitive merits of various training methodolgies all day long...strengths, weaknesses etc...

but to discuss HOW a particular methodolgy would fair in a fight...

well...I can't even begin to answer that one as I find it a sophmoric question of limited view. (Sorry).

Aristeia
08-25-2008, 09:41 PM
as you'd expect, I agree in some areas and disagree in others. I'm not so sure there are MMAbunnies. Having said that, MMA is a bit of a looser term - so we get to look at the local kung fu school claiming MMA and say tthat's not really MMA. But most true MMA schools train with resistance which takes away alot of the bunnyness in my experience.

In general, TMA's (such as Aikido) provide a training environment where bunnies can multiply (really running with the metaphor now), where as live training environments tends to either weed them out or turn them into something else.
That's why I'm pretty comfortable to say in a one on one combat situation (no weapons) I'm happy to put one of my 1 year guys up against and aikidoka with 5 times that training and put my money on my guy. Because I know there's very little he has to adjust from his training to the combat where as the aikido chap will have to do more "filling in the gaps".

Having said that - if we could wave a magic wand and have all of my guys have 5 years aikido behind them before the walked in the door - that would suit me fine. It would make them better BJJers and MMAers (once we fix the damn stance). Aikido is a great training method for teaching some very useful principals. But I believe it needs something alongside it to truly functionalise those principals.

Where I agree with you is that the chances of a well trained grappler and an aikidoka going at it in a bar seeem pretty slim. It may be worth though looking for the question behind the question - which imo is someone looking to be reassured about Aikido's effectiveness. And it's in this light I think it behooves us to answer - with honesty and integrity - what aikido is and isn't good for , where it will and will not be useful.

Kevin Leavitt
08-25-2008, 11:22 PM
Agree with Michael.

FWIW, i studied Aikido for about 8 years, then got in a conversation one day with one of my NCOs who is a MMA guy, and currently one of the top Army fighters. We got into this same debate. It ended with me getting into a fully resistant sparring situation with various sets of rules....I could not do much with him.

He then put me on the mat with a few MACP guys with less than one years experience and no MA or wrestling background...I to had a hard time with those guys...embarrassingly so.

How could I train 15 years in MA, 8 in Aikido and be bested by "grapplers" and MMA guys with less than a year?

That said, within 12 months I was a BJJ blue belt, and within 3 years a purple belt. My aikido background helped me immensely in BJJ once I figured out it was basically the same, albeit different in timing etc.

It seems that guys like me, Michael Fooks, Roy Dean, Don Magee all have almost the exact same story, and the exact same experience, and the exact same conclusion concerning MMA/BJJ and full resistance training and the influence/place that aikido fits very well in the overall picture.

Bring in the internal stuff that a few guys are doing with Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, and Aunkai and it gets even more interesting!

However, many can't get past the whole aikido in the bar thing..or aikido is a complete system thing, and MMA is bad thing...and continue to spin this over and over.

Anyway, I like to share my experiences and such, as I love this stuff and hope somewhere that maybe some others might take the chance to take a different look at things.

I know I wasted many years in denial about MMA/BJJ and now the IMA training stuff....only to now get on board and start expanding my training.

It has been an interesting 12 months!

Will Prusner
08-25-2008, 11:53 PM
you're right that makes perfect sense. And completely misses the point. Which is that in the middle of a fight - logical considerations don't come into it. In an adrenalised state you won't be thinking "hey that boxing dad taught me 30 years ago maybe I should dust that off". You'll be on autopilot and defaulting to the things you have most recently been training consistantly. Unless of course you acheive a strong enough positional dominance that allows you to "collect your thoughts". But at that point the fight is pretty much won.

Ask anyone who's competed in a sport art what the difference is between what they do when they're in learning mode vs what shows up in competitoin. It's the stuff that you've been drilling for the last x amount of time, day in and day out that shows up, even if you planned going in to try your fancy new sweep.

And a "street" confrontation takes that phenomenum to the next level. It's not about what it's smart or not smart to do - it's about how human physiology and psychology operates under stress.

Maybe we should be training to keep our heads about us and keep the ability to think logically and rationally under pressure? Sounds good to me.

I agree that 30 years would be a long time to go without practicing a technique to think that you'll pull it out of the bag and actually do something useful with it. However, I'm really not feeling the whole "six months" argument either. If a guy who has been training boxing for 10 years decides to take six months off and practice ballet, i don't think he's going to perform Swan Lake if he gets in a fight.

Basically, I agree with you. The body and mind behaves unpredictably when under stress. Every time I hear this though, I can't help but think about the firing range. Are all those cops out at the firing range wasting their time because no one is shooting back at them, and they don't really know how they'll react when someone does? I know when I practice defensive shooting I attempt to induce varying physiological (psychological stress is harder for me to realistically induce) stresses; running as fast as possible for as long as possible and then trying to stay on target, doing curls with dumbbells until arms are completely exhausted and then trying to stay on target, etc. Preparing for, if not the worst, then at least an uncomfortable situation

It's really all academic as I have ice water flowing through my veins.:D

you'd had better be controlling more than YOU if YOU expect to survive.

Agreed, but it seems somewhat circular. As far as i can tell, the ability to control someone else is directly proportional to one's ability to maintain control of themselves. It would be impossible to control them if you are not in control of yourself, so then which control is more important (should be practiced more). I'd say control of yourself.

W.

Buck
08-26-2008, 12:13 AM
Phil wrote:

I couldn't answer that question as I don't have a technique oriented paradiqm...all I see is principles and the dynamics of the situation.

What techniques exist in aikido that do not exist in MMA and vice versa?

We can discuss the realitive merits of various training methodolgies all day long...strengths, weaknesses etc...

but to discuss HOW a particular methodolgy would fair in a fight...

well...I can't even begin to answer that one as I find it a sophmoric question of limited view. (Sorry).

Chicken...:D Com' on Kevin you have jumped on topics less then this just to comment on something more sophmoric then this. Heck you respond to me! :D

Isn't that what it's about, right. Telling the world what you would do based on viewing a real situation! You should be partin' the red sea to comment on that instead commenting on hypothetical posts. :)

Buck
08-26-2008, 12:26 AM
That's why I'm pretty comfortable to say in a one on one combat situation (no weapons) I'm happy to put one of my 1 year guys up against and aikidoka with 5 times that training and put my money on my guy. Because I know there's very little he has to adjust from his training to the combat where as the aikido chap will have to do more "filling in the gaps".


Ahhh..come on, Michael! No weapons, thats reducing the reality of a street fight to a sporting match. I would put up an escrima guy with 1 year of training against one of your own BJJ guys with 10 years experience. Talk about filling gaps, Wow, with all those that the poor BJJ guy is going to have to fill is countless. I have my money on the stick guy.

Don't get me wrong a stick fight would be tough for an Aikidoka, but there are less gaps to fill. He isn't going to lay down and fight from the gound -don't be getting those neck hairs raised too high, it's good natured ribbing that's all. I am just playing. :)

Demetrio Cereijo
08-26-2008, 03:53 AM
It may be worth though looking for the question behind the question - which imo is someone looking to be reassured about Aikido's effectiveness. And it's in this light I think it behooves us to answer - with honesty and integrity - what aikido is and isn't good for , where it will and will not be useful.
If people really wanted answers about aikido's effectiveness, they surely had found themselves. What they want is validation.

Aristeia
08-26-2008, 03:56 AM
If people really wanted answers about aikido's effectiveness, they surely had found themselves. What they want is validation.I'm not so sure. I think part of the issue we're discussing is that you never quite know how effective Aikido is just by training aikido...

Aristeia
08-26-2008, 04:01 AM
Ahhh..come on, Michael! No weapons, thats reducing the reality of a street fight to a sporting match. I would put up an escrima guy with 1 year of training against one of your own BJJ guys with 10 years experience. Talk about filling gaps, Wow, with all those that the poor BJJ guy is going to have to fill is countless. I have my money on the stick guy.

well yeah - I'd put my money on the guy with the weapon vs *any* martial artist.
I know this is somewhat tongue in cheek - still trying to "turn the tables" rhetorically. But it's a fairly common comeback - and I often wonder if those that use it realised they have just effectively said that aikido vs bjj is as much of a mismatch as empty hand vs weapon is....


Don't get me wrong a stick fight would be tough for an Aikidoka, but there are less gaps to fill. He isn't going to lay down and fight from the gound -don't be getting those neck hairs raised too high, it's good natured ribbing that's all. I am just playing. :)heh - again I disagree - I think the bjjer will do better against a stick fighter than an aikidoka....

seriously.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-26-2008, 04:14 AM
I'm not so sure. I think part of the issue we're discussing is that you never quite know how effective Aikido is just by training aikido...

Exactly, and people wants to know if aikido is effective without stepping themselves outside the training environment.

So, to the OP and every other who wants to "know" how to defend himself against a grappler/bjj'er/mma'er/whatever with his aikido in "the street": Go to the street and find it yourself. The answers you're looking for aren't in the dojo and much less in a internet forum.

Aristeia
08-26-2008, 06:21 AM
or, if you prefer to stay out of prison - go visit a grappling school and have a play.

Buck
08-26-2008, 06:48 AM
If people really wanted answers about aikido's effectiveness, they surely had found themselves. What they want is validation.

Validation for what? Again, are we assuming that just because you roll on a mat it instantly makes you the best fighter in the world?

With all this slanted MMA vs. Aikido post and the original question what I think is there are MMA/BJJ out that are looking for a we are better then everyone validation, because they aren't at the pro-level or appreciate the value of other martial arts. :) I understand, it happens.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-26-2008, 07:25 AM
Validation for what?
Self-image.

Again, are we assuming that just because you roll on a mat it instantly makes you the best fighter in the world?
No. Rolling in a mat is rolling in a mat, no more, nor less. So don't include me in the "we", please. Thanks.

With all this slanted MMA vs. Aikido post and the original question what I think is there are MMA/BJJ out that are looking for a we are better then everyone validation, because they aren't at the pro-level or appreciate the value of other martial arts. :) I understand, it happens.
This happens in BJJ/MMA, in Aikido and in a lot of venues, no big deal. It's human nature. But if the question is "Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground?" what comes to my mind is the "Achilles vs. turtle" thing so, instead of going into philosophy, semantics and maths, I'll ask for someone to bring me a turtle, even if I'm not Achilles, and let's see what happens.

Of course, there are people who prefer philosophy, semantics and maths and conclude that Achilles can't catch up with the turtle, but I can accept diversity. No problem.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-26-2008, 07:42 AM
or, if you prefer to stay out of prison - go visit a grappling school and have a play.

But going musha shugyo and dojo yaburi-ing is very un-traditional and lacks proper samurainess. Storming biker bars (if the bikers are trained in mma/bjj, of course) is what counts.

If you want to play the blues you got to pay your dues. :)

salim
08-26-2008, 08:56 AM
Agree with Michael.

FWIW, i studied Aikido for about 8 years, then got in a conversation one day with one of my NCOs who is a MMA guy, and currently one of the top Army fighters. We got into this same debate. It ended with me getting into a fully resistant sparring situation with various sets of rules....I could not do much with him.

He then put me on the mat with a few MACP guys with less than one years experience and no MA or wrestling background...I to had a hard time with those guys...embarrassingly so.

How could I train 15 years in MA, 8 in Aikido and be bested by "grapplers" and MMA guys with less than a year?

That said, within 12 months I was a BJJ blue belt, and within 3 years a purple belt. My aikido background helped me immensely in BJJ once I figured out it was basically the same, albeit different in timing etc.

It seems that guys like me, Michael Fooks, Roy Dean, Don Magee all have almost the exact same story, and the exact same experience, and the exact same conclusion concerning MMA/BJJ and full resistance training and the influence/place that aikido fits very well in the overall picture.

Bring in the internal stuff that a few guys are doing with Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, and Aunkai and it gets even more interesting!

However, many can't get past the whole aikido in the bar thing..or aikido is a complete system thing, and MMA is bad thing...and continue to spin this over and over.

Anyway, I like to share my experiences and such, as I love this stuff and hope somewhere that maybe some others might take the chance to take a different look at things.

I know I wasted many years in denial about MMA/BJJ and now the IMA training stuff....only to now get on board and start expanding my training.

It has been an interesting 12 months!

I hate to say it, but I will. Most Modern Aikidoka are in denial due to the cult like status or religious fanaticism that has developed within most Modern Aikido circles. Modern Aikido has done something in the history of America's quest for marital arts that is significant, unlike most. It allowed, strongly advocated religious idioms as it's bases and made those who didn't accept those methodologies as somehow bastardized heathens. That's why those Aikibunnies mention, walk around in a fantasy world, speaking of super human capabilities. It's slowly developing into a superiority complex.

When an Aikibunnie is embarrassed or challenged beyond there martial abilities, then they begin to question Modern Aikido. They come to the realization about true self defense, much like so many of us have. Aikido is not the all, be all of self defense.

I myself have experienced similar situations much like you have.

Flintstone
08-26-2008, 09:16 AM
I'll ask for someone to bring me a turtle, even if I'm not Achilles, and let's see what happens.
Well... if we count Otenjime as an Aikido technique, then turtle will lose...:p

No, seriously. Let's admit Demetrio is right: we aikidoka are always looking for validation. Best thing to do is go train with other MAists and share and learn. Dojo yaburi is not in the like of AIKIDO (TM) practicioners, so it's not really an option.

Best.

DH
08-26-2008, 09:31 AM
I hate to say it, but I will. Most Modern Aikidoka are in denial due to the cult like status or religious fanaticism that has developed within most Modern Aikido circles. Modern Aikido has done something in the history of America's quest for marital arts that is significant, unlike most. It allowed, strongly advocated religious idioms as it's bases and made those who didn't accept those methodologies as somehow bastardized heathens. That's why those Aikibunnies mention, walk around in a fantasy world, speaking of super human capabilities. It's slowly developing into a superiority complex.


Is that really a fair comment anymore? I don't know I'm just asking.
It seems going way back to Aikido Today magazine and Sue refusing to publish any more "effectiveness" debate articles or letters-to-the-editor that something was a foot. Now you can hardly go to an aikido forum anywhere where effectiveness isn't a major issue.
Secondly as a follow up, more and more left, or got training outside but stayed involved.
Now you have the recent internal power (aiki) debate which is giving many in Aikido new hope for power being used more commensurate with their art-and hundreds are going to train it.

Overall it seems the issue really is only "debated" by a small fraction of those holding on, or those who frankly are not in aikido for "effectiveness" in the first place. Maybe its just me, but it seems the denial days are -for the most part-past us, and folks are involved in fixing it, in one form or another.
Am I wrong?

salim
08-26-2008, 10:27 AM
Is that really a fair comment anymore? I don't know I'm just asking.
It seems going way back to Aikido Today magazine and Sue refusing to publish any more "effectiveness" debate articles or letters-to-the-editor that something was a foot. Now you can hardly go to an aikido forum anywhere where effectiveness isn't a major issue.
Secondly as a follow up, more and more left, or got training outside but stayed involved.
Now you have the recent internal power (aiki) debate which is giving many in Aikido new hope for power being used more commensurate with their art-and hundreds are going to train it.

Overall it seems the issue really is only "debated" by a small fraction of those holding on, or those who frankly are not in aikido for "effectiveness" in the first place. Maybe its just me, but it seems the denial days are -for the most part-past us, and folks are involved in fixing it, in one form or another.
Am I wrong?
I use the analogy, much like the Conservatives vs Liberals dilemma within American politics. The Conservative Aikidoka will ostracize you with intensity, if you don't agree with there principles and call you UNPATRIOTIC, Aiki style. The Liberals will advocate using what works for you. Try BJJ/MMA and learn it effectively. The Liberals will tell you to accept BJJ/MMA and utilize it's full potential.

The Conservatives will use media venues such as Aikiweb.com to covertly manipulate the psyche of those who are not well versed in the martial arts/self defense methods in general. They will continue this perpetration by using psychoanalysis within the dojos. This will help flourish and foster the mindset. That is the Modern Aikido movement of today.

Yes, it's true, many are starting to question Modern Aikido, venture into BJJ/MMA. Yes, I think it's fair now. Although Stanley Pranin and others, years ago, attempted to share and uncover some misconceptions about Modern Aikido's history, it was not widely accepted in the beginning. The MMA/BJJ craze and the advent of the Internet has changed the game of ignorance. People no longer have to accept at face value what there Sensei saids. People are more opt to question anything these days, and that's powerful.

Roy Dean and his academy, along with many others, hold bright features for Aikidoka to come. They are sharing, responding professionally, and advocating intelligent thinking, ask questions to much about a martial art. Bruce Lee try to do this over 30 years ago, but only a handful of people listened. Now information is everywhere, readily available for us to think intelligently without blinders.

Another note, the mindset is still very prevalent, that's why we are having this discussion.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-26-2008, 10:29 AM
Overall it seems the issue really is only "debated" by a small fraction of those holding on, or those who frankly are not in aikido for "effectiveness" in the first place. Maybe its just me, but it seems the denial days are -for the most part-past us, and folks are involved in fixing it, in one form or another.
Am I wrong?

Only over-optimist, methinks.

Aristeia
08-26-2008, 02:29 PM
Only over-optimist, methinks.
Agree. For everyone that posts on a thread like this on the internet there's probably 20 aikidoka who never discuss it online -just go to the dojo 3 times a week and believe whatever sensei says (who in turn is just repeating what their sensei said...and so on).

Phil - you persist in the claim that MMA/BJJ practioners have some sort of complex that means we need gain validtion from comparing MMA/BJJ to aikido. So once more:
look back through all the threads like this in aikiweb - and there are ample - and you'll notice something.

THE TOPIC IS NEVER, EVER RAISED BY SOMEONE VERSED IN BJJ/MMA!!

Why would we? It's purebred aikidoka or newbies asking the question.

Aikibu
08-26-2008, 02:45 PM
Wow....

It's pretty simple really...Either you have an open mind or you don't.

We poor Aikidoka just seem to "roll" on doing the best we can with or without an open mind. :)

William Hazen

Aristeia
08-26-2008, 03:05 PM
end of the day if you're off the couch and enjoying what you're doing it's all good - open or closed.

Aikibu
08-26-2008, 03:19 PM
end of the day if you're off the couch and enjoying what you're doing it's all good - open or closed.

Amen...

What I enjoy doing most is making connections with folks. I must remember not to lose sight of that here on Aikiweb. :) I have met a ton of folks because of the Web and some of them have taught me a good thing or two about life and the Martial Arts. :)

Hopefully we'll hang out one day too. I would love to visit New Zealand. I have an RNZSAS buddy who runs a sheep farm there, and surfs beautiful uncrowded waves... Another ex-pat who lives here in Malibu and goes back during your summer. And then there's David Lynch... Another cool Aki-Kiwi I would like to meet.

William Hazen

DonMagee
08-26-2008, 03:33 PM
Was this thread seriously created in 2008?

I have to chime in here. While the art does matter, what matters even more is the training method.

In that regard I place my money on the guy who has been in more real fights, been actually hit more, actually had to respond to 'real' attacks more, and actually used their art against a resistant attacker more.

Essentially it comes down to this, actual experience trumps pretend experience. This is true in all senses. The closer to real your training is (towards the goals you are trying to develop), the better you will be at it.

Everyone here says if you want to train for the ring, you have to train for the ring. That means sparing with the rules of the ring. Does anyone here think you can make a pro maa fighter without sparing and aliveness?

What makes you think you can skip the same type of training and make a street fighter?

What we have here is a religious, faith based argument based on what I would loosely call a Chinese telephone system of training.

Aikibu
08-26-2008, 03:41 PM
Was this thread seriously created in 2008?

I have to chime in here. While the art does matter, what matters even more is the training method.

In that regard I place my money on the guy who has been in more real fights, been actually hit more, actually had to respond to 'real' attacks more, and actually used their art against a resistant attacker more.

Essentially it comes down to this, actual experience trumps pretend experience. This is true in all senses. The closer to real your training is (towards the goals you are trying to develop), the better you will be at it.

Everyone here says if you want to train for the ring, you have to train for the ring. That means sparing with the rules of the ring. Does anyone here think you can make a pro maa fighter without sparing and aliveness?

What makes you think you can skip the same type of training and make a street fighter?

What we have here is a religious, faith based argument based on what I would loosely call a Chinese telephone system of training.

Help me here Don...How did you reach this conclusion and what 'argument" are you specifically referring to?

William Hazen

dalen7
08-26-2008, 04:06 PM
The attacker could be 100lbs heavier, it want matter, because it's not about strength, kicks or punches, it's about restraining the attacker.

With everything there is a piece of truth - and also something that is not quite accurate.

The above statement can, and Im sure has, led many people to false security about whatever style they are in. (i.e., ground fighting.)

When I was but a young lad... ;)
...in highschool, I was on the weightlifting team.
Weighed about 145lbs and benched 245 (not really all that great...I had sustained an injury keeping my bench down a bit.)

Anyway, I was with a group of guys and we were fighting for fun - one of the guys was on a college wrestling team, and he could not pin me for the life of him...if he got me, then I just popped back up, and I was able to pin him and keep him for a good bit of time pinned, and then he would escape, and I would pin him again.

He was using technique, etc., and I had no technique, just relying on pure strength.
It worked for the most part as I just pointed out. (Technique would have helped me out, of course.)

After he had pinned everyone...except me...he commented on the uncanniness of my strength.. :D

The guy was actually trying to show off, because he was shorter than the rest of us - and for the most part, with the other guys, he made his point that it was about technique.

Point - there are no absolutes in life.
There are pointers that many people get lost in and make an idol. ;)
(So much so with martial arts...people looking for the unreachable holy grail of martial arts - think they found it, and miss the point altogether.)

As Bruce basically said, "be the water". ;)

Peace

dAlen

Norton
08-26-2008, 04:25 PM
Why would we? It's purebred aikidoka or newbies asking the question.

To be honest, I'm both.

Was this thread seriously created in 2008?

I have to chime in here. While the art does matter, what matters even more is the training method.

In that regard I place my money on the guy who has been in more real fights, been actually hit more, actually had to respond to 'real' attacks more, and actually used their art against a resistant attacker more.

Essentially it comes down to this, actual experience trumps pretend experience. This is true in all senses. The closer to real your training is (towards the goals you are trying to develop), the better you will be at it.

Everyone here says if you want to train for the ring, you have to train for the ring. That means sparing with the rules of the ring. Does anyone here think you can make a pro maa fighter without sparing and aliveness?

What makes you think you can skip the same type of training and make a street fighter?

What we have here is a religious, faith based argument based on what I would loosely call a Chinese telephone system of training.

I don't think it's so weird to ask this. It's simply a technical question, and people who are not very proficient in a matter may have confusions and questions about it, which is quite natural.

And secondly, of course real fight experience is very important to foresee the result of a fight, but there are obvious things that give you advantage on certain things, and after seeing lots of guys with no ground-fight experience but proficient on other styles struggling against the grapplers on lots of videos, I think it's wise to ask "what would I do in that situation?" even just for the scientific approach and hobbyist curiosity.

And thirdly, I think that there are lots of "used to be high school wrestler" guys who would try to pin you off in a barfight.

I'm just trying to explore what I've been getting into. Call me impatient if you want.

DonMagee
08-26-2008, 04:32 PM
Help me here Don...How did you reach this conclusion and what 'argument" are you specifically referring to?

William Hazen

The argument is the whole street vs sport, MMA vs aikido, aliveness vs 'traditional' (I quote it because I do not feel it is traditional training at all.)

As for how I've reached this conclusion. I can not force myself to write out my explanations any further. I'd suggest doing a search for the keyword aliveness and my username. Pick one. :D

Aikibu
08-26-2008, 05:43 PM
The argument is the whole street vs sport, MMA vs aikido, aliveness vs 'traditional' (I quote it because I do not feel it is traditional training at all.)

As for how I've reached this conclusion. I can not force myself to write out my explanations any further. I'd suggest doing a search for the keyword aliveness and my username. Pick one. :D

Been There Done That Don. I hope you get over your frustration someday. :) I think Illker represents his question well.

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
08-26-2008, 05:48 PM
William P wrote:

Agreed, but it seems somewhat circular. As far as i can tell, the ability to control someone else is directly proportional to one's ability to maintain control of themselves. It would be impossible to control them if you are not in control of yourself, so then which control is more important (should be practiced more). I'd say control of yourself.

Yes, agreed, this is really the irony of the whole thing. It is really more about a paradigm or perspective than anything else. The GOAL should be to control the other guy. The means to that end is that you have to control yourself. I think too many times we get caught up in carrying over PC and philosophical concepts to martial arts and we start forgetting about what it was that we were really trying to do with MAs to begin with.

But I agree.

Kevin Leavitt
08-26-2008, 05:56 PM
Salim wrote:

I hate to say it, but I will. Most Modern Aikidoka are in denial due to the cult like status or religious fanaticism that has developed within most Modern Aikido circles. Modern Aikido has done something in the history of America's quest for marital arts that is significant, unlike most. It allowed, strongly advocated religious idioms as it's bases and made those who didn't accept those methodologies as somehow bastardized heathens. That's why those Aikibunnies mention, walk around in a fantasy world, speaking of super human capabilities. It's slowly developing into a superiority complex.

No, I think it is much simpler than that. People come to aikido and most martial arts with no framework for what it is, isn't or what it should be. It is simple, it is not a part of our culture, or wasn't until the last 50 years. Even then it is a very small subset.

No denial, cognitive dissonance, and surrounding yourself with people and situations you are comfortable with is human nature. Couple that with economic law that requires most of us to make a living or have a dojo that at least pays the bills and break even, then you get something slightly less than an honest approach, even if the sensei or organization has the best intention.

Pareto princple is alive and well in everything we do, as well as the ole bell curve. It is simply an element of socialization.

It will be especially rampant in arts in which the measure is highly subjective in nature and there are very few measures that allow for accountability and objectivity.

It just is this way.

Buck
08-26-2008, 07:23 PM
I hate to say it, but I will. Most Modern Aikidoka are in denial due to the cult like status or religious fanaticism that has developed within most Modern Aikido circles. Modern Aikido has done something in the history of America's quest for marital arts that is significant, unlike most. It allowed, strongly advocated religious idioms as it's bases and made those who didn't accept those methodologies as somehow bastardized heathens. That's why those Aikibunnies mention, walk around in a fantasy world, speaking of super human capabilities. It's slowly developing into a superiority complex.

When an Aikibunnie is embarrassed or challenged beyond there martial abilities, then they begin to question Modern Aikido. They come to the realization about true self defense, much like so many of us have. Aikido is not the all, be all of self defense.

I myself have experienced similar situations much like you have.

And MMA /BJJ aren't? MMA/BJJ are cults where guys live out absurd fantasies, etc. and are weekend warriors and arm chair quarterbacking, fighting the mid-life crisis, or got to prove something. MMA/BJJ is a cult and many are in denial.

Aikido doesn't have the commercial fight exploitation with a splash of of circus atmosphere to it. Those TapouT guys are professional wrestling colorful. There are people making money hand-over fist capitalizing on the MMA trend, the fights etc. The exploitation is unbelievable and the hordes of guys willing to be exploited just get in a venue the exploits them even more. $$$$$$$$$

No thank you that is not for me. I don't want to be thrown into a cage and told to fight. Winning a few trophies at a local tournament of amateur MMA/BJJ doesn't make me feel what I do or what I am invincible thats just me. If you need that kind of thing, go for it. At some point in your life you will grow out it, and realize just because you take martial arts or sports will not make you superman.

There is a beauty in Aikido, a grace, an adventure that is life-long. You don't have to believe in the Omoto religion to get something valuable out of O'Senseis words. I look at Aikido less of a spiritual thing and more of a social and cultural revolution in Japan. I don't believe ki is physical thing that can be manipulated. And all the other things discussed like some don't train hard, or correctly, or realistically etc. I may disagree with some or all of that. But, it doesn't mean I have to stop respecting those Aikidoka I disagree with and treat them poorly and talk trash because I disagree. I don't know everything, and I am not an expert Aikidoka.

There are stronger things then might. And might isn't the only thing.

It is easy to criticize the other guy, when not looking into the mirror.

Aikibu
08-26-2008, 07:34 PM
And MMA /BJJ aren't? MMA/BJJ are cults where guys live out absurd fantasies, etc. and are weekend warriors and arm chair quarterbacking, fighting the mid-life crisis, or got to prove something. MMA/BJJ is a cult and many are in denial.

Aikido doesn't have the commercial fight exploitation with a splash of of circus atmosphere to it. Those TapouT guys are professional wrestling colorful. There are people making money hand-over fist capitalizing on the MMA trend, the fights etc. The exploitation is unbelievable and the hordes of guys willing to be exploited just get in a venue the exploits them even more. $$$$$$$$$

No thank you that is not for me. I don't want to be thrown into a cage and told to fight. Winning a few trophies at a local tournament of amateur MMA/BJJ doesn't make me feel what I do or what I am invincible thats just me. If you need that kind of thing, go for it. At some point in your life you will grow out it, and realize just because you take martial arts or sports will not make you superman.

There is a beauty in Aikido, a grace, an adventure that is life-long. You don't have to believe in the Omoto religion to get something valuable out of O'Senseis words. I look at Aikido less of a spiritual thing and more of a social and cultural revolution in Japan. I don't believe ki is physical thing that can be manipulated. And all the other things discussed like some don't train hard, or correctly, or realistically etc. I may disagree with some or all of that. But, it doesn't mean I have to stop respecting those Aikidoka I disagree with and treat them poorly and talk trash because I disagree. I don't know everything, and I am not an expert Aikidoka.

There are stronger things then might. And might isn't the only thing.

It is easy to criticize the other guy, when not looking into the mirror.

Amen...Shoji Nishio once said something to the effect of "We are here to change ourselves by practicing Aikido, and not just simply to learn another method to destroy each other."

William Hazen

Demetrio Cereijo
08-26-2008, 07:57 PM
I don't think it's so weird to ask this. It's simply a technical question, and people who are not very proficient in a matter may have confusions and questions about it, which is quite natural.

Yes, it's natural but the people here who have years of first hand experience in both aikido and grappling/bjj/judo/mma et al. are a bit tired of trying to explain how things work while the ones who base their opinions on what they see on TV try to derail this kind of threads by all means.

I think it's wise to ask "what would I do in that situation?" even just for the scientific approach and hobbyist curiosity.
The scientific approach implies experimenting, so sooner or later you have to step on the mat. Sooner the better, imho.

People come to aikido (...) with no framework for what it is, isn't or what it should be. It is simple, it is not a part of our culture, or wasn't until the last 50 years

And if you can't be sure about translation accuracy....things become more confusing.

Aristeia
08-26-2008, 08:17 PM
And MMA /BJJ aren't? MMA/BJJ are cults where guys live out absurd fantasies, etc. and are weekend warriors and arm chair quarterbacking, fighting the mid-life crisis, or got to prove something. MMA/BJJ is a cult and many are in denial.
Interesting belief. what fantasies did you have in mind (sounds like I've been getting the wrong training)

Aikido doesn't have the commercial fight exploitation with a splash of of circus atmosphere to it.

True. Of course some people like that atmosphere <shrug>


No thank you that is not for me. I don't want to be thrown into a cage and told to fight.

Fair enough. Watch what happens to MMA over the next 5-10 years though...

Winning a few trophies at a local tournament of amateur MMA/BJJ doesn't make me feel what I do or what I am invincible thats just me. If you need that kind of thing, go for it. At some point in your life you will grow out it, and realize just because you take martial arts or sports will not make you superman. Again go an MMA gym. You'll find very few people who think they're superman - because the training method means they all have their ass kicked at some point. You seem to be assuming a mindset that just doesn't exist in my experience.

There is a beauty in Aikido, a grace, an adventure that is life-long. You don't have to believe in the Omoto religion to get something valuable out of O'Senseis words. .This is true. However I also have found in my own experience - I have gained many more "life lessons" from BJJ than I have from Aikido.

Aristeia
08-26-2008, 08:21 PM
. But, it doesn't mean I have to stop respecting those Aikidoka I disagree with and treat them poorly and talk trash because I disagree. I.
Just to clarify - are you implying anyone on this thread has been treating people poorly or talking trash?

Kevin Leavitt
08-26-2008, 09:54 PM
I know Michael already covered it well, but I am going to add my two cents anyway...

Cult/Fantasy: well far from it in the world I live and train in. I am a soldier, a warrior. I train soldiers and warriors, and believe me, being a part of a fantasy is the furthest thing from our minds. We train this stuff because we have found value in it.

I travel alot around the world and I have looked up schools on the internet Romania, Bulgaria, Italy, Germany, South Africa and all across the U.S. I have never experienced this cult/fantasy you discuss. What I do find is a common bond among guys training with good spirit even though we don't speak the same language.

How much experience are you speaking from? How many BJJ/MMA schools have you been to? How many have you found to be training in things that are unrealisitc and cultish? Please give examples, i'd like to avoid those places.

You know I was thinking on the way home. When I got invovled in aikido years ago, I remember walking into Saotome Sensei's dojo in Takoma Park. If you go there, he has posted in the sitting area, the first thing you see...the rules and expectations of aikido. I read them the first 5 minutes in my aiki career. Never did it say anything about beating grapplers or fighting effectiveness. Had more to do with Budo and refinement of self as a holistic means.

It has never been confusing for me as to what we are doing in ASU at least. Now did I try and turn it into something else...sure. However I reminded myself from time to time that it was MY issue, and not the issue of Sensei or the fact that he gave me false expectations about what it is in aikido that we are here to do.

Phil wrote:

There is a beauty in Aikido, a grace, an adventure that is life-long. You don't have to believe in the Omoto religion to get something valuable out of O'Senseis words. I look at Aikido less of a spiritual thing and more of a social and cultural revolution in Japan. I don't believe ki is physical thing that can be manipulated. And all the other things discussed like some don't train hard, or correctly, or realistically etc. I may disagree with some or all of that. But, it doesn't mean I have to stop respecting those Aikidoka I disagree with and treat them poorly and talk trash because I disagree. I don't know everything, and I am not an expert Aikidoka.

There are stronger things then might. And might isn't the only thing.

It is easy to criticize the other guy, when not looking into the mirror.

Phil all I can say to the above is take your own advice. I could change Aikido to BJJ/MMA in the above and say "right back atcha".

The BJJ/MMA guys we have on this list, as Michael has pointed out have never criticized aikido categorically or holisitcally. Might we compare methodogies and constructively point out strengths and weaknesses? Yes. However we do it based on our actual experiences in training...not from casual observation from watching TV or reading magazines, which as best I can tell is your level of experience with MMA. (feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

We have really only tried to be the mirror and attempt to point out the areas that we feel your argument is wrong in. I really do take offense at the categorical dismissal of a whole genre and culture of training that is based on prejudice and bias. It is wrong, and really is not very much in the aiki culture of "seeking to blend and understand" if you ask me.

I am probably not going to comment much more on this topic as it has been beaten to death. I really have no inclination to convert you to MMA/BJJ as I have enough training partners already that want to do it. It is becoming apparent that continued discussion with you on this subject will end up getting personal if we continue down this road.

Good luck in your training and I hope you find happiness, harmony, and peace.

DonMagee
08-26-2008, 10:18 PM
Been There Done That Don. I hope you get over your frustration someday. :) I think Illker represents his question well.

William Hazen

I'm just sick of these threads. There are two kinds of people who post in these threads.

Those who have trained 'traditional' and alive and see its value, and those who have never trained alive and feel they know everything there is not know about what mma/bjj/etc is and isn't.

I try to never say aikido can't do this, or can't do that. I point out that I strictly deal with training methods. You can do aikido and train alive. You can do bjj and train 'traditional'. But if all you do is static armbars you are never going to armbar someone who has even half a desire to hurt you.

See, there I go again. I broke my own rule and started explaining things I've written here at least 50 times.

Hopefully the people who never tried it will just keep getting older, and the younger generation will get out there and learn for themselves and understand the value of a good rough and tumble. At least while they are young enough to get the very valuable experience from it.

And before you ask why I can't just stay out of it....well I'm a fighter :-)

salim
08-26-2008, 10:21 PM
And MMA /BJJ aren't? MMA/BJJ are cults where guys live out absurd fantasies, etc. and are weekend warriors and arm chair quarterbacking, fighting the mid-life crisis, or got to prove something. MMA/BJJ is a cult and many are in denial.

Aikido doesn't have the commercial fight exploitation with a splash of of circus atmosphere to it. Those TapouT guys are professional wrestling colorful. There are people making money hand-over fist capitalizing on the MMA trend, the fights etc. The exploitation is unbelievable and the hordes of guys willing to be exploited just get in a venue the exploits them even more. $$$$$$$$$

No thank you that is not for me. I don't want to be thrown into a cage and told to fight. Winning a few trophies at a local tournament of amateur MMA/BJJ doesn't make me feel what I do or what I am invincible thats just me. If you need that kind of thing, go for it. At some point in your life you will grow out it, and realize just because you take martial arts or sports will not make you superman.

There is a beauty in Aikido, a grace, an adventure that is life-long. You don't have to believe in the Omoto religion to get something valuable out of O'Senseis words. I look at Aikido less of a spiritual thing and more of a social and cultural revolution in Japan. I don't believe ki is physical thing that can be manipulated. And all the other things discussed like some don't train hard, or correctly, or realistically etc. I may disagree with some or all of that. But, it doesn't mean I have to stop respecting those Aikidoka I disagree with and treat them poorly and talk trash because I disagree. I don't know everything, and I am not an expert Aikidoka.

There are stronger things then might. And might isn't the only thing.

It is easy to criticize the other guy, when not looking into the mirror.

Phil,

Who said anything about cage fighting or winning trophies? Dude, you're not listening. I'm not sure if prejudice, tainted views from commercialized TV hype is preventing a deeper understanding. BJJ/MMA is not just what you see on TV. The point of the thread is effective self defense, what works and what doesn't work. You totally missed the mark.

Unbelievable!!!!!!

Keith R Lee
08-26-2008, 10:23 PM
Haven't visited Aikiweb in a few months; a combination of being busy and growing tired of the same discussions coming up again and again. I come back and lo and behold, what do I discover on the front page:

"Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido"

L-O-freaking-L. People really can't let this go can they? I think Michael summed it up best here:


here's the question though. When these discussions come up - why is it that *everyone* who has a degree of experience in both Aikido (by which I mean a dan grade in aikido and at least a blue belt in bjj) have the same perspective? is it possible there's something in that?

It's pretty straightforward in my mind (that being said, I fall into Micheal's category above). There are those who come up with elaborate hypothetical situation to determine why their Aikido will work in one of these encounters. Then there are those who just go to a BJJ/MMA gym and try it out and see what happens. Then some of them go on to study BJJ/MMA and Aikido. Considering that these people have the greatest depth of knowledge in regards to the subject, it would follow that people would yield to their greater amount of experience and expertise. But nope, by the tone of a significant amount of the rest of the posters, the people who have years of experience in Aikido and BJJ are just doing it wrong.

Personally, I just got tired of reading this type of thread again and again, and going :freaky: . Finally, I just got to the point of :rolleyes: and just shook my head at the naivete of the majority of posters here who come into these discussion with only Aikido experience. It's just not worth it trying to convince some people. Although Michael, Kevin, Don, Roy Dean when he posts, are to be commended for sharing their knowledge and experience here.

Beyond all that, I would think that Aikidoka would not fall into the trap of Aikido v. anything. The entire point of Aikido is to move beyond conflict. The question should not be how does Aikido fare v. BJJ or whatever? It should be how does Aikido blend, adept, and compliment BJJ?

Whenever someone talks of BJJ or MMA as a brutish, sport-oriented, essentially soulless activity, it is patently obvious to me that such a person has never spent any significant time at a BJJ or MMA gym. They are ABSOLUTELY places of kenshin - the intensity of the training, the bond with other students, the pushing of boundaries, testing one's mettle, pushing beyond what you thought you had within yourself to find something greater - all exist in a BJJ/MMA gym. Perhaps more so than an Aikido dojo. It inevitably depends on the individual and in the manner in which they wish to forge themselves.

Invariably I think this versus, or absolute Aikido or nothing mindset rests on the twin specters of fear and ego. Many Aikido fear BJJ and its ilk in that they don't understand it. They also fear that it is a superior method of actually dealing with a physical crisis scenario which, in turn, assaults their ego. They fear that they have vested too much work into something that might have been a waste of time and effort. These people have used Aikido to transform aspects of their lives and feel as though they are being told it is false. IMO, these people have missed a large part of Aikido training, which is to subsume the self (ego) and banish fear.

There is no need to create a "us" v. "them" barrier between Aikido and combat sports; "traditional" v. "alive." Both have their place in training and, for what it's worth, I find that they seem to compliment one another in many respects.

salim
08-26-2008, 10:26 PM
With everything there is a piece of truth - and also something that is not quite accurate.

The above statement can, and Im sure has, led many people to false security about whatever style they are in. (i.e., ground fighting.)

When I was but a young lad... ;)
...in highschool, I was on the weightlifting team.
Weighed about 145lbs and benched 245 (not really all that great...I had sustained an injury keeping my bench down a bit.)

Anyway, I was with a group of guys and we were fighting for fun - one of the guys was on a college wrestling team, and he could not pin me for the life of him...if he got me, then I just popped back up, and I was able to pin him and keep him for a good bit of time pinned, and then he would escape, and I would pin him again.

He was using technique, etc., and I had no technique, just relying on pure strength.
It worked for the most part as I just pointed out. (Technique would have helped me out, of course.)

After he had pinned everyone...except me...he commented on the uncanniness of my strength.. :D

The guy was actually trying to show off, because he was shorter than the rest of us - and for the most part, with the other guys, he made his point that it was about technique.

Point - there are no absolutes in life.
There are pointers that many people get lost in and make an idol. ;)
(So much so with martial arts...people looking for the unreachable holy grail of martial arts - think they found it, and miss the point altogether.)

As Bruce basically said, "be the water". ;)

Peace

dAlen

I know 50 and 60 year old men who practice BJJ and will kick my ass and many young guys my age. It's not about strength necessarily, sure it helps. It's more about thinking smart and application of the technique.

DonMagee
08-26-2008, 10:48 PM
I wouldn't place me in the same category as guys like them. My aikido experience is very limited. I am not a black belt, hell I'm not even close. I still train aikido from time to time, but the time to time is less frequent. This is mostly because my goals have changed to really reflect what I want from martial arts (to be a teacher). I want to teach sport grappling some day. Along the lines of judo and bjj (probably both together) so I have changed my focus to strictly being good at judo/bjj.

While training aikido will probably help my judo or bjj in some way, it will not help me more then just practicing judo or bjj. No more then learning to program in ruby will help my boxing.

Guys like Roy Dean have dedicated their lives to the martial arts. I'd trust what they have said over what I have said. I've done various martial arts my whole life, but besides my kitty TKD black belt, and my upcoming (if I ever learn the damn kata properly) judo black belt, I am a long way from being on that level. I still have many butt kickings to receive, and many more to give.

In terms of tough guys doing bjj/mma/judo. I should post a picture of me. I'm not even close to what anyone would call tough looking. I'll never be a physical monster. I'm always out muscled out cardioed, etc. I do just fine with my witts, tactics, and trickery.

Tim Fong
08-26-2008, 10:52 PM
I think (but cannot prove) that if you could travel in time and bring a 29 year old Shioda Gozo back to today, he would love MMA. He had the core body development that make Aikido what it is, and I'm sure, he could have figured out how that development would apply against BJJ exponent. In fact, there's a post over at Judoforum about a challenge Shioda fought against one of Kimura Masahiko's students:
http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=18518

One of the posters has put up the interview/article...but it's in Japanese. If someone would like to translate it, I'm sure there would be lots of interested readers :)

I guess what I don't understand is a distinction between on the one hand effectiveness in a challenge/ring situation and on the other "beauty, grace, tradition, self defense, it's only for use against weapons" and all the other stuff aikido is supposed to really be about. It's pretty clear that at one point in time, at least one guy (who was small statured)
1) had orthodox aikido training (from the Man Himself, no less)
2) fought at least one grappler in a challenge and prevailed. If the translation of the article is correct, Shioda broke his opponent's arms.

Obviously if one wants to go all post-modern (or post structuralist if you wish) then aikido can mean whatever you want, and it's whatever you say it is. In that case, you know, then whatever, embrace your nihlism. Then again, if everything is equally true, then my belief that everything is not equally true is also equally true. How's that for paradoxical?

Vulgar relativism aside, if on the other hand one claims to be about the ongoing tradition, then it would make sense to actually, I think, be able to manifest the outward signs of that tradition.

Don,
I'm not an imposing guy either. And I agree that cardio is important. But as for Shioda, there was something at work a lot deeper than technique.

Aristeia
08-26-2008, 11:11 PM
Haven't visited Aikiweb in a few months; a combination of being busy and growing tired of the same discussions coming up again and again. I come back and lo and behold, what do I discover on the front page:

"Defending Against Grappler Using Aikido"

L-O-freaking-L. People really can't let this go can they? I think Michael summed it up best here: to be fair Keith I think this is the first time it's come up in a while - don't be disheartened...


Beyond all that, I would think that Aikidoka would not fall into the trap of Aikido v. anything. The entire point of Aikido is to move beyond conflict. The question should not be how does Aikido fare v. BJJ or whatever? It should be how does Aikido blend, adept, and compliment BJJ? I'll drink to that

Aristeia
08-26-2008, 11:12 PM
I'm always out muscled out cardioed, etc. I do just fine with my witts, tactics, and trickery.amen to that!

DonMagee
08-26-2008, 11:13 PM
I think (but cannot prove) that if you could travel in time and bring a 29 year old Shioda Gozo back to today, he would love MMA. He had the core body development that make Aikido what it is, and I'm sure, he could have figured out how that development would apply against BJJ exponent. In fact, there's a post over at Judoforum about a challenge Shioda fought against one of Kimura Masahiko's students:
http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=18518

One of the posters has put up the interview/article...but it's in Japanese. If someone would like to translate it, I'm sure there would be lots of interested readers :)

I guess what I don't understand is a distinction between on the one hand effectiveness in a challenge/ring situation and on the other "beauty, grace, tradition, self defense, it's only for use against weapons" and all the other stuff aikido is supposed to really be about. It's pretty clear that at one point in time, at least one guy (who was small statured)
1) had orthodox aikido training (from the Man Himself, no less)
2) fought at least one grappler in a challenge and prevailed. If the translation of the article is correct, Shioda broke his opponent's arms.

Obviously if one wants to go all post-modern (or post structuralist if you wish) then aikido can mean whatever you want, and it's whatever you say it is. In that case, you know, then whatever, embrace your nihlism. Then again, if everything is equally true, then my belief that everything is not equally true is also equally true. How's that for paradoxical?

Vulgar relativism aside, if on the other hand one claims to be about the ongoing tradition, then it would make sense to actually, I think, be able to manifest the outward signs of that tradition.

Don,
I'm not an imposing guy either. And I agree that cardio is important. But as for Shioda, there was something at work a lot deeper than technique.

Yet he, like most other aikido greats did at some point do sport/alive training.

From wikipedia
"His father was a keen judo practitioner who had his own dojo called the Yoshinkan as well. Shioda junior was a black belt in judo by the time he entered high-school."

I'm not saying this is why he was so awesome. But I am saying that aliveness training will allow you to use other kinds of training more readily. Having a judo/boxing/mma/bjj/etc background or just sparing on a regular schedule or training with aliveness will greatly improve the odds that what you train to do will actually be what you can do.

One more thing again from wiki
"In those days, aiki budo was still a very hard martial art and training at the Kobukan was intense. It was this kind of training that Shioda loved and strove to preserve when he later founded the Yoshinkan. He and other uchi deshi would often go around Tokyo at night picking fights with gangs in order to test out their skills, despite being forbidden to do so by Ueshiba."

Just fits in what I've said. If you want to be good at fighting. You need to train that way, aka aliveness. This is one way to do it, abit a very rough way to go about it.

Ok one more edit. Maybe the problem is that these teachers don't put much importance on what they did to get to where they are. Instead they teach ideals of what they want it to be? I'd say if you want to be like Shioda, you'd have to train like he did.

Tim Fong
08-26-2008, 11:18 PM
Yet he, like most other aikido greats did at some point do sport/alive training.

Just fits in what I've said. If you want to be good at fighting. You need to train that way, aka aliveness. This is one way to do it, abit a very rough way to go about it.

Yep. Don't worry Don, you don't have to sell me on aliveness
:)

And, I agree , coming to aikido with some freestyle experience seems not to have hurt Tohei Koichi either.

DonMagee
08-26-2008, 11:19 PM
I'm wondering now if I just advocated going out and picking street fights with gangs as a valid method of learning aikido? LOL

Will Prusner
08-26-2008, 11:49 PM
Yes, agreed, this is really the irony of the whole thing. It is really more about a paradigm or perspective than anything else. The GOAL should be to control the other guy. The means to that end is that you have to control yourself. I think too many times we get caught up in carrying over PC and philosophical concepts to martial arts and we start forgetting about what it was that we were really trying to do with MAs to begin with.

But I agree.

Eloquently phrased and I agree 100%. I suppose I take for granted that one of the major reasons we train a martial art is to subdue an opponent. I guess some folks have lost sight of that goal. I guess I just assumed that if the only goal was self control, there are many (potentially less dangerous) options, calligraphy, gardening, meditation, etc..

It's the paradox that i find extremely interesting in martial arts and life.

W.

Aikibu
08-27-2008, 12:54 AM
And again the "discussion" loops back on itself

Aikido is effective
Aikido is not effective

And on and on and on and on and on.

As long as we're stuck on this semantic duality this discussion will never achieve harmony.

I have been doing all kinds of Martial Arts since I was a boy and in every practice the answer always lies with the man or woman. It is up to me to determine how "effective" I want my practice to be and O'Sensei said exactly the same thing.

William Hazen

Aiki x
08-27-2008, 04:55 AM
I'm only a first dan in Iwama Aikido but I have been able to tap out several blue belts at my local BJJ club using Nikkyo. I have done this with them in my guard (between my legs). One funny thing is that I usually have to dry my hands on my gi first as the sweat makes getting a good grip difficult. However, I've done Judo for the last 25 years so maintaining the guard position is relatively easy.

With regards beating grapplers I believe Iwama Aikido is quite effective. The bokken and jo subburi teach the student to develop power with pretty much any weapon or object of a similar shape. This level of weapons skill is a key benefit of Iwama Aikido training that should not be overlooked in any self defence situation.

Weapons aside (a big thing to leave out in my opinion) I genuinely don't think that a pure aikidoka would have any chance at all against a seasoned Judoka or BJJ'er in a ground fight. I have invited many highly experienced Aikidoka to my dojo to try ground fighting and they have all come away enlightened and surprised by amount of "ju" and the lack of "strength" that good judo requires and how utterly futile their attempts to fight on the floor are.

Flintstone
08-27-2008, 07:35 AM
[...] I genuinely don't think that a pure aikidoka would have any chance at all against a seasoned Judoka or BJJ'er in a ground fight.
Ahhh... but then you must give us a definition of what constitutes a "pure aikidoka".

DonMagee
08-27-2008, 08:35 AM
I'd define it as someone who trains aikido as a martial art and does not have direct competitive sport experience (judo, wrestling, bjj, sambo, etc).

If I take someone to the ground, sweep with a nice flower sweep, secure a mount , dominate an arm, then tap them out with a wrist lock, is that my aikido or bjj training? It would seem I used all the fundamental tactics and techniques of bjj.

However I do not think it should be broken down into pure bjj, pure judo, pure aikido. I think there are two groups. Those who train with aliveness and those who don't. Inside that aliveness group there are two more groups. Those who train for all ranges of fighting and those who don't. MMA for example trains for all ranges of unarmed fighting. BJJ and Judo do not.

But even in a fairly restricted alive style (say boxing) you are developing a sense of timing , motion, and the ability to deal with resistance that simply can not be built any other way. This is what makes successful combative athletes that much more awesome in a traditional martial art. The problem is when people who do not train as these people trained and expect to develop the same type and level of skills. If a high end competitive kickboxer suddenly joined a traditional style of jujutsu and then years later started destorying guys in fights, would you be suprised that his jujutsu students and peers are going to claim it was all jujutsu and point to him as the example of how awesome their art is?

I however, do not believe in using individuals as examples of a good training method. Pointing at a top MMA athlete and saying "see X works" does not prove anything. Neither does pointing at Osensei or some other great. When someone asks me, I point at the green/brown belts in my judo club, or the blue belts in my bjj club. Every one of them has trained for a similar amount of time (for the most part) and has a quantifiable, measurable level of skill. They can all beat guys of lower rank constantly in matches and all have good fundamentals that can be demonstrated against a person who is trying to put a hurting on them.

Are they uber badasses? Nope. Are they prepared to win a street fight against 4 men armed with bats? Nope. What they are is an example of a training method that builds consistent, useful, testable results. And as you move up the chain, you see the same thing all the way up to black belt.

You do not have to be a pro mma fighter to have effective self defense. More so, you do not need to beat a pro fighter for effective self defense. But you do need to be able to take the average tough guy. Most people with a short time of sport training can do that. Not because of some awesomeness in the art, but because of the training method. And they know they can do it because those same tough guys show up and try the classes, get beat up and leave.

In my opinion the only way to develop those skills effectively is the kind of training that combative sports gives you. Explicitly repeatable, measurable, and useful results.

Science can make everything better.

Aiki x
08-27-2008, 10:08 AM
Ahhh... but then you must give us a definition of what constitutes a "pure aikidoka".

As Don says, someone who's martial arts training comprises of Aikido and no other styles. Clearly an Aikidoka with a heavy Judo / BJJ backgound will fair better against a grappler. In such a case it might be the Aikido that gives them the edge.

Flintstone
08-27-2008, 10:34 AM
As Don says, someone who's martial arts training comprises of Aikido and no other styles. Clearly an Aikidoka with a heavy Judo / BJJ backgound will fair better against a grappler. In such a case it might be the Aikido that gives them the edge.
Sorry to sound repetitive here but now... what is Aikido? Do you mean AIKIDO (TM) or maybe the application of aiki principals to (not) fighting? I mean, is Tomoe Nage Judo or Aikido? Me thinks (again) that it depends on the principals used and not on the actual technique itself. I can do a fairly "aiki" Kata Guruma and then outmuscle an Ikkyo out of a resisting opponent. I guess the first Kata Guruma will be Aikido while the late Ikkyo would be... well, just brute force.

Not well defined boundaries in my (poor) view of the arts, but more of blurred and overlapping areas. Just my view, maybe.

DH
08-27-2008, 10:48 AM
For the interest of the discussion (as I outlined above) not all aikidoka are lame, not all grapplers are good either. I agree with Don with the caveat that there is a means and method to train aiki within aikido that
a) does not require experience in grappling
b. does not depend on waza
And delivers the goods...in spades.
And where BJJ and Judo are limited to no punching kicking, Aikido can use at least punching and body parts to hit with can't it? WIth the correct training those body parts can be fight enders for most people. They can also be become very sticky and controlling for set-ups and soft (meaning hard to take or stop) throwing

From that point on -there is the agreed and absolute necessity for training in an alive setting against grapplers to reach expertise. So the real question maybe shouldn't be "What most people in them are doing." Rather "What are YOU doing?"
I think great potentials are there in both arts. Its up to the people doing them to make them something more than collection of waza or a spiritual pursuit....if they so choose. Again, Aikido-so often dismissed due to the large numbers of people with lack-luster skills defnining its potential- is going to be joined by grappling. "Large numbers of hobbyist joining, just to have fun." Who's lack luster skills...will soon be defining -it- as well.
So again its up to the individual.

Flintstone
08-27-2008, 11:32 AM
So again its up to the individual.
Amen to that.

gdandscompserv
08-27-2008, 11:35 AM
The individual being more important than the art.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-27-2008, 11:59 AM
A good training method is what makes the difference.

Aristeia
08-27-2008, 01:03 PM
Are they uber badasses? Nope. Are they prepared to win a street fight against 4 men armed with bats? Nope. What they are is an example of a training method that builds consistent, useful, testable results. And as you move up the chain, you see the same thing all the way up to black belt. well put Don.

Which is the exact opporsite of "it's the person not the style". The style, the method of training - however you want to call it. Should show observable results over time. Those results should be fairly predictable with in a band that allows for fast learners and not so fast learners. But still pretty much predictable.

Because I always come back to the same question - if it's the person not the style, you're really saying it's individual attributes not the training - so why train at all?

gdandscompserv
08-27-2008, 01:12 PM
well put Don.

Which is the exact opporsite of "it's the person not the style". The style, the method of training - however you want to call it. Should show observable results over time. Those results should be fairly predictable with in a band that allows for fast learners and not so fast learners. But still pretty much predictable.

Because I always come back to the same question - if it's the person not the style, you're really saying it's individual attributes not the training - so why train at all?
It is individual attributes that drive them to train the way they do.

Aristeia
08-27-2008, 01:15 PM
tell me more about what you mean by that?

gdandscompserv
08-27-2008, 01:30 PM
I think those who are driven will find what they seek. If they seek a style, they will find a style. If they seek a better training method, they will find it. Your training is YOUR responsibility, not the style's and not the training method's. It is all about YOU and what YOU want. Budo is very individual. I also think, ultimately, it should be 'style-less.' It is totally and completely an expression of yourself.

DonMagee
08-27-2008, 01:46 PM
I agree, training methods have to be important. If they were not,then why train. You could read a book and be just as awesome as you would be going to class. Physical goods are also important. I don't care what anyone says, If you are 5'7", 280 pounds, smoke, and live on mcdonalds you are at a major disadvantage without about everyone who can walk on their own more then 10 feet in a fight.

What the a good alive training method does is show you your physical and mental strengths and weaknesses. You can then work to minimize the impact of these weaknesses. On top of that you build good solid skills that should work for anyone and everyone (the style). This is the mark of a good style. It should not focus on things that everyone of reasonable fitness can not do and it should focus on improving the health, physical, and mental attributes of it's participants.

I will use me as an example.

I was in TKD my entire youth. The style focused on physical fitness and extreme flexibility. I simply am not flexible. I stretch every single day just to keep a level that most people have from the start. There are techniques in TKD I simply can never do. In my style those were the focus of the higher belts, which put me at an impasse. It was impossible for me to do these techniques. A sign I now know as a sign of a bad style.

Fast forward to my adult life. I got fat, old, lazy. I wanted to change this. I decided martial arts was the way to do this (remembering my military like youth training). I find TKD has watered down into a feel good activity. So I start reading. Eventually things lead me to aikido and that leads me to judo and that leads me to bjj. My first judo instructor was a lot like my aikido instructor in terms of practice. It was a focus on pure technique. To the point that I never really 'worked out' while in class. He, like my aikido instructor do not believe physical attributes or fitness matter. They do not warm up or stretch before class. The only time you are winded or stressed physically are in those small short moments of randori. In my first judo class, that was maybe once a month. The rest of the time we would do slow uchi komi under constant adjustment from the instructor. I made it a few ranks under him, found a love of ground work and started bjj class.

BJJ class was different. The instructor focuses on a training method very close to how I would run a school if I was put in charge of it. First, try to get in the best reasonable physical condition possible. For him this brought on running, crunches, pushups, stretching, two and three man body exercises, body movement drills, squats, box jumps, even weights. If you do not have a good level of fitness, you are not practicing good self defense. Once this was done, he would move on to teaching good fundamental martial movements and techniques. These are things everyone with a good fitness level can do, from 8 to 80 years old. From time to time he would show something 'cool' just to give us ideas on how to leverage our strengths, but 95% of the time, it is fundamentals. Finally, you would spar and spar a lot. Almost half the class time. This is where you learn to take those movements and techniques and learn to minimize your weaknesses and maximize your strengths.

What you find is that gab between the weakness and strength shrinks. In my case I had horrible cardio. I could spar for maybe 2 minutes. I learned how to control my stress levels, breathing, etc and developed better physical shape, that weakness became less and less of an issue. I can now spar for 15 - 20 minutes at a time. I also have very little physical strength. This has increased, but most of my peers are much stronger, so I learned how to use my body to work against their strength. You get the picture.

Eventually I met a judo coach who trains the same way. Working under him got me my brown belt very quickly. I quickly became competitive in judo for my rank.

How much of that was the person? I'd say maybe 25%. You have to have the desire to learn, and the intelligence and creativity to learn how to deal with your weaknesses and apply your strengths. But the other 75% is a good training method that gives you the tools to use those physical attributes.

I guess I'm saying it takes a special kind person to do a flying armbar or a crescent kick to the head. But these things are not required to win fights. Solid fundamental skills trained in an alive manner, along with allowing the creativity to figure out how to solve your own problems (rather then looking for a technique that solves them) will build a much better marital artist in physical confrontation. Just being strong or fast is useless if you have not been taught what to do with that speed and strength.

Again, I don't think this is a should be looked at from a bjj or aikido angle. Look at it from a training method angle.

rob_liberti
08-27-2008, 01:49 PM
Personally, I'm all for cock-fighting using people. :)

I just want to have aiki based skills to do it myself. YMMV

Rob

Aristeia
08-27-2008, 02:35 PM
How much of that was the person? I'd say maybe 25%. You have to have the desire to learn, and the intelligence and creativity to learn how to deal with your weaknesses and apply your strengths. But the other 75% is a good training method that gives you the tools to use those physical attributes.

Gold - great post Don.

A reflection I had after training last night. I probably use aikido every night in sparring. (by which I mean something I can point to and say that's a variation of....) When I first started, such attempts were guaranteed to get me tapped. Now that I have a base level of BJJ those aikido moves (primarily tenchi nage but some others) are extremely effective. But I needed a base of alive training to put them onto.

Kevin Leavitt
08-27-2008, 08:05 PM
Don and Dan, very good comments and post.

The challenge with training all range of combat is that you must constantly struggle with time management. That is, what do you spend your time doing the most?

My Army buddies discuss this all the time. We have to balance weapons based training along with empty hand, all along with going to work just like everyone else and working a "day job" doing some inane administrative stuff.

I spend most of my time on body work/structure/conditioning and grappling skills as they form the core structure for everything else.

DonMagee
08-27-2008, 10:00 PM
Don and Dan, very good comments and post.

The challenge with training all range of combat is that you must constantly struggle with time management. That is, what do you spend your time doing the most?

My Army buddies discuss this all the time. We have to balance weapons based training along with empty hand, all along with going to work just like everyone else and working a "day job" doing some inane administrative stuff.

I spend most of my time on body work/structure/conditioning and grappling skills as they form the core structure for everything else.

Because of this thread, I ditched bjj and did some aikido tonight. My perspective still has not changed. I did however learn that my extension still sucks :D

dalen7
08-28-2008, 04:28 AM
What the a good alive training method does is show you your physical and mental strengths and weaknesses. You can then work to minimize the impact of these weaknesses. On top of that you build good solid skills that should work for anyone and everyone (the style). This is the mark of a good style. It should not focus on things that everyone of reasonable fitness can not do and it should focus on improving the health, physical, and mental attributes of it's participants.

I enjoyed your post - good read.
I could not tell from your post if you still train in Aikido or not and if so how is your Aikido different then before. (i.e., you found a new Judo instructor, did you find an Aikido Instructor that was similar?)

Just curious - and again, a good assessment of the situation in martial arts I would say. :)

Peace

dAlen

DonMagee
08-28-2008, 07:00 AM
I enjoyed your post - good read.
I could not tell from your post if you still train in Aikido or not and if so how is your Aikido different then before. (i.e., you found a new Judo instructor, did you find an Aikido Instructor that was similar?)

Just curious - and again, a good assessment of the situation in martial arts I would say. :)

Peace

dAlen

I've trained with my current aikido instructor and his instructor who have very similar methods (a shock huh :) ) and I've trained with another guy who claimed to teach a 'harder style of aikido' which imho really turned out to be a 'less then reputable' instructor (one of those guys with a million belts and claims he can teach you everything from tai chi to mauy thai if the price is right). So no, I have never found an aikido school that has a training method based on my definition of aliveness. I belive my instructors aikido school to be the only legit aikido school within at least an hour of my house.

That said, I do not train aikido often anymore. In fact, last night was the first time in probably 4 or 5 months. I have to get in the mood for it.

DH
08-28-2008, 10:03 AM
Because of this thread, I ditched bjj and did some aikido tonight. My perspective still has not changed. I did however learn that my extension still sucks :D

And I and a few of my guys walk into BJJ / MMA schools occasionaly and walk away with the same opinions you did about aikido. Then again the last time I did Aikido™ I felt the same way you did also. So I remain firmly in the middle. A staunch advocate for live training, while remaining a staunch advocate for real Aiki...do.
Both arts have tremendous potential in the hands of the right people.

Demetrio Cereijo
08-28-2008, 10:37 AM
Slighty back on topic (defending against "The evil grappler™")

What worries me is when people points to techniques like the one you can see in this clip (http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/media/aikido/2004-12-11/Jutsuri_No_Kata.wmv) (1:37 to 1:44) as takedown defense (as I have seen posted in another forum), especially when they haven't trained it against competent resisting opponents in alive settings.

IMO, giving technical advise about sd/fighting without checking if the technique works in a realistic environment is irresponsible.

Flintstone
08-28-2008, 10:45 AM
IMO, giving technical advise about sd/fighting without checking if the technique works in a realistic environment is irresponsible.
Call me irresponsible then. But I bet Mochizuki Sensei put that technique there for a very good reasson. Anyway this is Jutsuri no Kata, translated as the "kata of the construction of the technique" (same ri as in riai). And that takedown is performed... well... in a kata manner. Maybe not the best takedown, and surely not the best technique anyway.

Ey, see you when come to Zaragoza. Hopefully we can share a drink and a fight ;) !

DH
08-28-2008, 10:52 AM
Slighty back on topic (defending against "The evil grappler™")

What worries me is when people points to techniques like the one you can see in this clip (http://www.nadeo.ca/daniel/media/aikido/2004-12-11/Jutsuri_No_Kata.wmv) (1:37 to 1:44) as takedown defense (as I have seen posted in another forum), especially when they haven't trained it against competent resisting opponents in alive settings.

IMO, giving technical advise about sd/fighting without checking if the technique works in a realistic environment is irresponsible.

I don't know why you separated any one thing out from the rest of what they were doing as irresponsible and in-effective. Unfortunately, I watched it. I would have pointed out 0:00 to 2:28
You know even the sutemi at 1:57 is so open, and his position so poor that a competent guy would just bend with it and land on him not go over him. Kata or drills are fine but they are meant to instill proper placement and timing at the very least. So even in a staid and static demo the pieces are right.
Live...much of that can go out the window. So if you can't do it in a kata-good luck when Murphy steps up to greet you..

Demetrio Cereijo
08-28-2008, 10:57 AM
Call me irresponsible then. But I bet Mochizuki Sensei put that technique there for a very good reason.
Sure he had a good reason but, are you sure he wanted to teach takedown defense?, are you sure nothing was lost in transmission?. Sadly he's not with us, we can't ask him, but we can spar (like he did, and a lot) and see if something is missing.

And that takedown is performed... well... in a kata manner. Maybe not the best takedown, and surely not the best technique anyway.
What's the purpose of the kata, then?

Ey, see you when come to Zaragoza. Hopefully we can share a drink and a fight ;) !

I hope some day mid september. I'll pm you when I know the date. Take care.

I don't know why you separated any one thing out from the rest of what they were doing as irresponsible and in-effective. Unfortunately, I watched it. I would have pointed out 0:00 to 2:28
Because Mr. Villanueva is a long time e-friend of mine. I'm not a "very" bad guy. :)

Flintstone
08-28-2008, 10:58 AM
I don't know why you separated any one thing out from the rest of what they were doing as irresponsible and in-effective. Unfortunately, I watched it. I would have pointed out 0:00 to 2:28
You know even the sutemi at 1:57 is so open, and his position so poor that a competent guy would just bend with it and land on him not go over him. Kata or drills are fine but they are meant to instill proper placement and timing at the very least. So even in a staid and static demo the pieces are right.
Live...much of that can go out the window. So if you can't do it in a kata-good luck when Murphy steps up to greet you..
Guys... this video of the kata is not performed by top exponents of the art.

Flintstone
08-28-2008, 11:02 AM
Sure he had a good reason but, are you sure he wanted to teach takedown defense?, are you sure nothing was lost in transmission?. Sadly he's not with us, we can't ask him, but we can spar (like he did, and a lot) and see if something is missing.
It is always something lost in transmission. And you are absolutely right about the sparring part.

What's the purpose of the kata, then?
Still not sure about that :(.

I hope some day mid september. I'll pm you when I know the date. Take care.
See you then. Stay cool!

DH
08-28-2008, 11:36 AM
Guys... this video of the kata is not performed by top exponents of the art.

I think that was exacty the point...he...was making. And it's a good case for there being far less video, far less teachers, and far less writing as to technical know how.

Kevin Leavitt
08-28-2008, 01:48 PM
Agreed. That is the problem with kata of this nature. It becomes so disconnected from the mechanics of reality that the reasons for doing it become completely lossed in translation. It then becomes so lost that only the "top exponents" are the ones that can do it properly.

Ironically, it plays to their advantage (intentionally or not) as it guarantees them students that will strive to "one day be as good at it as them".

Certainly this video represents an extreme on one end of the spectrum of kata and aliveness. You could do the same kata and incorporate a great deal of aliveness in it and still accomplish the same things, but you would have guys with much less experience doing it pretty darn good (of course always room for improvement) but it would not be a requirement to be a "top exponent" only an average guy.

think about that logic. Those are pretty darn basic things going on there. Controlled, methodical, predictable, and slow....what is so skilled about it that would require years of experience?

Not much....other than the communication process that is needed between the two participants because they have an artificial relationship between the two of them because it is so "unalive". That process WOULD take two "top exponents" that have worked together for years so that they could move very easily together and look good as they did it.

Add aliveness to it, and it requires much less communication between the two as they respond to the dynamic of the situation.

This is the very reason it is easy for me to walk into a BJJ dojo anywhere in the world and immediately be able to "communicate" physically and speak the same language.

Not the same in aikido dojos. If I am visiting one, I make sure that I understand who is running it, what style they are doing, and I have a general feel and idea of where they are coming from.

Not that there is anything wrong with the differences in approach and timing etc....only that when you factor out the aliveness, you have to realize that you are complicating the communication and transmission process tremendously. That needs to be considered.

I think it is why we have all grown to believe that it takes 20 years to learn aikido. Yes, it might take 20 years to learn Aikido (tm), depending on your brand...I agree.

DonMagee
08-28-2008, 03:59 PM
Compare that video to this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wsQE6K3a6s

What differences do you perceive?

Or for that matter, this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvxJYM_LsHw

MM
08-28-2008, 04:23 PM
I had a chance to work with someone who had a background in Judo. Didn't ask the rank and it had been some years since he'd studied. Take that for what you will.

Anyway, I wanted to show him the stability with aiki in a judo format. So, I have him grab me and try to throw me. He can't enter to get a throw. (If you've seen my vids on youtube, you can see how big Brian is in them. The judo guy is bigger than Brian.) He tries a couple more times and can't enter. Then, on one, I slip in my intent and he gets inside to get a fit. But then he stops. He didn't think it was going to work. :) It might have and it might not have, but we didn't get to find out.

So, I say, no, you should go for it. I purposely let him do the same thing again, but this time once he's got the fit and starting for the throw, I have my structure back. He can't throw. He's trying a throw like uki goshi (sorry, my judo is bad so I'm not exactly sure). All the time, I'm not trying to *do* anything to him at all, just use structure to not get thrown.

So, I tell him, let me try something different. We go back to the same type throw and I tell him to do his best to throw me. As he tries, I get heavy. (Um, hard to describe. It's like my body is covered in chain mail where the links are all spread out and I draw them all together into a tightly linked mesh with no holes while my feet are anchored to the ground -- so it brings me downwards.) He stops quickly because it's like I weighed a whole lot more than what I should have.

Then, I showed him how to use structure in his arms to not let someone break them. It was a different feel in his body between his normal self and his trying to use structure. More solid, but still a lot of muscle. Course, the muscle part goes away after time. He seemed to have fun with it.

But it's definitely nice to see aikido work in a non-aikido environment. Not saying I have anything perfected, mind you. Just that the training for aiki is making a difference -- one I'm really beginning to see after only a year and a half (technically 1 year 5 months). Cool.

DH
08-28-2008, 05:31 PM
I can't tell you how happy I am to hear you say that Mark. What is particularly fulfilling for me is remembering back to our first meeting after all the arguments with people here about this training making you all but unthrowable-and you being so surpised at feeling it from me. Now here you are just starting to do it yourself. I told you then that anyone can do this if they train.:cool:
It is my hope, that we can imagine a day when aiki re-introduced and trained -back into aikido- will produce aikido people that are so profound, so incredible that grapplers are going to look at them and say... "how do I learn that?"
Further that an Aikidoka's punches will be devestating, all while their controls and body movements are hard to avoid, and while being all but unthrowable-will be planting other MA for trying. One, by one, by one. you guy's are going to change Aikido and it will become a force to be reckoned with. With the choice- to not cause harm but control agression, being a very real choice,

I can't wait to see all these guys in three or four years...ten. And mores the point, what's going to happen when these Japanese Shihan start feeling these Americans.
The power of Aiki, ya gotta love it.
Good on ya Mark. I hope the travel and hard work and sacrifice continues to pay off.

MM
08-28-2008, 06:50 PM
I can't tell you how happy I am to hear you say that Mark. What is particularly fulfilling for me is remembering back to our first meeting after all the arguments with people here about this training making you all but unthrowable-and you being so surpised at feeling it from me. Now here you are just starting to do it yourself. I told you then that anyone can do this if they train.:cool:


Thanks and yeah, I remember. :)


It is my hope, that we can imagine a day when aiki re-introduced and trained -back into aikido- will produce aikido people that are so profound, so incredible that grapplers are going to look at them and say... "how do I learn that?"
Further that an Aikidoka's punches will be devestating, all while their controls and body movements are hard to avoid, and while being all but unthrowable-will be planting other MA for trying. One, by one, by one. you guy's are going to change Aikido and it will become a force to be reckoned with. With the choice- to not cause harm but control agression, being a very real choice,


The next 5 years are going to get very interesting.


I can't wait to see all these guys in three or four years...ten. And mores the point, what's going to happen when these Japanese Shihan start feeling these Americans.
The power of Aiki, ya gotta love it.
Good on ya Mark. I hope the travel and hard work and sacrifice continues to pay off.

In Aiki News Issue 34 in an interview with Saito, Saito states this:
"I think Aikido will be reimported to Japan in the future." It's an interesting section. While he doesn't really mean what we're talking about specifically, he's pretty close.

So far, it's all been more than worth it. Can't imagine another year. Should be fun ... amidst all the hard work, travel, and sacrifice. :)

Mark

Buck
08-28-2008, 07:19 PM
Sounds like all the pro-MMA/Bjj are having a great time pointing out what is all wrong with Aikido because of one Youtube clip. Each is his own.

But, the original question and much of this thread reminds me of a South Park episode "Make Love Not War Craft." Here is the similarity, it seems there are a number of MMA/Bjj that are wrapped up in this like in the fantasy MMORPG of South Park where the 30 something year old with no life and a candidate for a mental health study ( here is where there are similarities I talked about) renegade player builds a character that is intended to be invincible. That is what the original ( trolling - but entertaining) question is build on fantasy.

As the question assumed in the view of the MMA/Bjj the Aikidoka does fall and is submitted. So if the Aikidoka doesn't fall then it would be fair to say the grappler in the question was used like a mop to clean the floor by the geeky wimpy Aikidoka.

Since the question is full of assumptions, let’s assume the grappler was a woman between 21-25 years of ages no more then 50 kgs. And she is an FHM model or Sports Illustrated swimsuit model. And the Aikidoka was a 20-30 something single male. Do you think the Aikidoka isn't going to fall? Well of course he does, and the fight is on as the romance fantasy novel stuff chugs on. Then afterward they both get a latte together discussing their performances on the net. :blush:

I don't not know why there are a number of MMA/Bjj caught up in the fantasy that was the original question like that South Park character who built an invincible MMORPG character which was defeated by the "lesser" skilled players. I don't get it why it is an obsession with MMA/Bjj. The proof is in the number of posts and threads here and else where. So denial is mute.

I didn't get in the martial arts with the single-minded goal to prove to the world and other arts my testosterone is secure. Well to cockfight. If I wanted to do that, I would instead learn arts that are quick and easy to learn work hard at it and combine them. First I would take backyard fighting tactics, like sitting on top of someone and punching them, etc. Boxing, wrestling's principles of balance and escape techniques, some judo principles, arm bars, and chokes the stuff before 1964 Olympics ( I am told ), and get on the "juice." Then go to a MMA/Bjj place like Mike Fooks ' place and tear 'em up. Or skip the juice, put in half the effort into physically learning the things, read up on all the arts, and troll other arts. You know get people talking.

But I am not that way. I have no reason or purpose to prove in a cyclone fenced or roped off ring I have more testosterone then the other guy, or on the net. I prefer to never have to use my Aikido. Because the reality that has never been mentioned in this thread is that physical contact does results in injury of both fighters. In the original question it was assumed the grappler didn't get a scratch. That isn't true. Not every Aikidoka has the same mentality of defending themselves. The natural instinct to protect yourself from harm is strong under a high pressure situation. In those situations you don't know what a person is capable of under that pressure. So if the Aikidoka did fall and the natural instincts kicked in etc. and felt under a high pressure to survive the grappler may not be rolling on the ground with a few less body parts. Because we assume the grappler and the Aikidoka to both be male in the question that is another of many flaws with the question .

I think it can be said there are a number of MMA/Bjj also not in touch with reality. Really. Of all the MMA and Bjj who train how many are good vs. how many think they are good. I know. It is easy. The few who make it in the pro venues, and even less are those who are the top fighters in those venues. Everyone else is MMORPG. I say this because really a mirror needs to be held up to many MMA/Bjj who trash talk and troll Aikido. Aikido has had mirror held up to us for years.

I was told in the 1964 Olympics Judo went from a martial art to a sport. Due to that, it has deteriorated, less effective then it was with all the rules and scoring etc. MMA is on that very same path ever since NHB went commercial to MMA. Bjj faded out losing the spot light to the MMA fighters who made fights more exciting, etc. But with all the shift in rules, regulations and more rules etc. to come, and the exploitation and commercialization, and the marketing to keep it a entertaining Pro Wrestling comes to mind with TapouT, etc. it will choke MMA out. MMA will lose out to the next trend. as Bjj lost out to MMA. In time, it will be like Judo and wrestling now. I feel for you guys. :(

mathewjgano
08-28-2008, 08:13 PM
All the time, I'm not trying to *do* anything to him at all, just use structure to not get thrown.
...As he tries, I get heavy. (Um, hard to describe. It's like my body is covered in chain mail where the links are all spread out and I draw them all together into a tightly linked mesh with no holes while my feet are anchored to the ground -- so it brings me downwards.) He stops quickly because it's like I weighed a whole lot more than what I should have.
That sounds very much like when I'm extending my ki/intention to the "center of the Earth." My mental image is often of filling up...as with iron, and I become much more difficult to move...when successful:uch: .
...But it's definitely nice to see aikido work in a non-aikido environment. Not saying I have anything perfected, mind you. Just that the training for aiki is making a difference -- one I'm really beginning to see after only a year and a half (technically 1 year 5 months). Cool.
I hear ya! I highly value the extremely few moments I've had in which my Aikido training has kicked in (and worked as described) that wasn't also on the Aikidojo mat. It's crucial to find and train with folks who have a deep understanding of aiki (and can transmit that understanding reasonably well), particularly if you're trying to learn Aikido for self-defense or other physically demanding activities.
Specifically regarding grapplers, I've only had a smidgen of experience with jujutsu and other grappling folks. I was able to escape a technique better than I was able to perform one, but I was also able to spend far less energy than him when I was resisting his efforts (the most notable of my few meetings).
I think that if someone wants to learn Aikido in the hopes of learning to defend against anyone, let alone a grappler, they should think of it in terms of its principles. Techniques drive the system, but the principles (which ki exercises are designed to illustrate) drive the techniques...thus for this system to work it's techniques must be based upon the use of sound principles (and sound exercises/drills). Once principles are the foundation of movement, technique is circumstantial and almost happens of its own accord...in my limited experience at least.

Will Prusner
08-28-2008, 09:14 PM
with all the shift in rules, regulations and more rules etc. to come, and the exploitation and commercialization, and the marketing to keep it a entertaining Pro Wrestling comes to mind with TapouT, etc. it will choke MMA out. MMA will lose out to the next trend. as Bjj lost out to MMA. In time, it will be like Judo and wrestling now. I feel for you guys. :(

Dude! Really?!?! Is it possible for an art to "lose out"? How exactly did BJJ "lose out" to MMA? Aren't there still plenty of people all over the world who enjoy practicing BJJ? Don't alot of people practice BJJ and MMA simultaneously? Are they traitors? Did Greco-roman wrestling "lose out" to Hulk Hogan?

Maybe even a better question: Did Jiu-Jitsu lose out to "Brazilian" Jiu-jitsu? If so, why are people all over the place happily enjoying training it? Didn't anyone have the courtesy to tell the poor saps that it lost out?

Look, if anybody takes time out of their life to "bash" something on the internet, doesn't that say alot more about them, than it does about whatever they're talking about?

Just relax, Don't take it personally. If Aikido works, great. But it stands on it's own, it doesn't need anybody to come to it's rescue.

W.

P.s. - Hotdogs totally lost out to hamburgers.

Buck
08-28-2008, 09:39 PM
Dude! Really?!?! Did Greco-roman wrestling "lose out" to Hulk Hogan?

Yep.


Maybe even a better question: Did Jiu-Jitsu lose out to "Brazilian" Jiu-jitsu? If so, why are people all over the place happily enjoying training it? Didn't anyone have the courtesy to tell the poor saps that it lost out?

Gee...I don't hear Gracie anymore, like in the 1990s, maybe Matt Huges pounded that last nail in that coffin. It's MMA now and not Bjj that is hot.


Look, if anybody takes time out of their life to "bash" something on the internet, doesn't that say alot more about them, than it does about whatever they're talking about?

Thats my point!


Just relax, Don't take it personally. If Aikido works, great. But it stands on it's own, it doesn't need anybody to come to it's rescue.

W.

P.s. - Hotdogs totally lost out to hamburgers.

Is that Vegan or Pork, or Chicken, or Turkey, or Beef or any type of combination hotdogs? :D

Aristeia
08-28-2008, 09:49 PM
ummm....you do know bjj is a core component of mma right?

And you're completely wrong about it only being the upper echelons that are effective. there's a reason for the saying "blue belt beat the world, puple belt beat blue belt"

It's interesting to me that you like to talk about "fantasy" when it's clear that you've never set foot in a bjj or mma school. So you make assumptions about testosterone levels and all sorts of other stuff which are simply not true.

So my question is - if the people you are debating with have expereince of both Aikido and BJJ/MMA, and you have experience only of aikido but are imagining what the other side is like - which of the two sides is engaging in fantasy?

DH
08-28-2008, 09:53 PM
Excellent points Michael.

Buck
08-28-2008, 10:48 PM
ummm....you do know bjj is a core component of mma right?


Ya. Know, something down deep inside said someone is going to say that. I figured it was obvious that Bjj is used by many pro fighters, but not all, and not completely. Allot of what Bjj is, is judo and classical jujitsu any way. It is the Pro fighters that dictate to the amatures the sport of MMA. I wouldn't say a core componet. I would say early influence. Have you seen pro venues lately.


And you're completely wrong about it only being the upper echelons that are effective. there's a reason for the saying "blue belt beat the world, puple belt beat blue belt"


And where does black belt and BB levels come into play? Blue belt isn't the new black belt, is it?


So my question is - if the people you are debating with have expereince of both Aikido and BJJ/MMA, and you have experience only of aikido but are imagining what the other side is like - which of the two sides is engaging in fantasy?

That has been played. Scratch it. It has nothing to do with the original question or my opinion of it. I can't see why it is so important to defend the original question that is full of assumptions, it is fantasy, flaws, and dang right unrealistic. So why do you and so many others support it. Why do you and other fail to realize that if Aikido isn't about fighting for money in a fenced ring called a sport. Well a human cock-fight with fans and cheerleaders, and a large fantasy following, I am surprise there isn't something on MMA like other sports like fantasy baseball. Hey that is it! Maybe you start something like that I think it would work for you guys.

You have to understand I didn't start a thread that said, what would a grappler do if the grappler throws a punched at an Aikidoka say based on Dan Harden's teaching on how to improve or do Aiki. And the Aikidoka was a male of 105kg and 195 cm talls, and the grappler a woman half the Aikidoka's weight and frame, and 160 cm tall. :)

Buck
08-28-2008, 11:18 PM
Also, I don't have any reason were I need to defend Aikido. I have nothing at stake. I don't need to convince or win people over. More people in the world do Aikido then MMA and Bjj combined.

I don't have to convince people who would win in a fantasy scenario fight via a "What if question."

The world isn't full of people who want to beat he other senseless and look to Aikido for all the other things it offers.

Not everyone can be the champion, there is only on champion at a time. So what are then the other people in MMA and what are all the other people doing in MMA if they not the champion or pros? The best fighters are the pros who are already pros. That means everyone else in the sport is doing what, working in restaurants in Hollywood telling everyone they are going to be the next big star once they are discovered?

That is why I do Aikido, because I am not waiting in the wings on the net for my big break to be a champion that will never come, because I am not good enough and don't realize that I will not stand in the middle of the ring and hear my name and the word Champion in the same sentence as my arm is raised. Some people still cling to that fantasy. Honestly, allot of people are not facing that reality they will never be pros, they are drinking the hype Kool-Aid. And the other reality is in MMA everyone loses to someone, at least at this point of the entertainment game.

I don't enjoy beating the bloody someone for the sake of entertainment. I never could. I hope I never have to. I hope I will die with the luxury of knowing Aikido was a journey and I got so much from it, it enriched my life, and it always stayed an art for me. I don't live by the sword, and I don't want to die by the sword. That is why I do Aikido, and because I realized along time ago that it is the politician with the pen that sends the solider into combat. And the only reward for the solider is the glory and his life. The politician gets the spoils of power and war without ever having to step on a battlefield. It is the pen that is the greatest martial technique. The politician is the greatest and most powerfull warrior. :)

DonMagee
08-28-2008, 11:51 PM
This is one of the best trolls I've read in a long time. My wife actually came in to ask why I was laughing so hard. You sir are genius. I started off thinking you were just messing around, then i realized you were actually serious about this crap you are spouting. I'm sorry for being rude, and maybe I'll get in trouble, but that is what this is. As this could very well be my last post here at aikiweb (due to the content). I'm going to make one last shot at this and just be brutally honest.

Sounds like all the pro-MMA/Bjj are having a great time pointing out what is all wrong with Aikido because of one Youtube clip. Each is his own.
And here I thought my clips were proving a point that kata even in alive sports does the same damn thing. I guess I was just being blinding by the massive testosterone running though my 155 pound body. I have a question for you, instead of griping about it, do you have any physical evidence to examine? No, then you might as well try to convince me unicorns exist.

But, the original question and much of this thread reminds me of a South Park episode "Make Love Not War Craft." Here is the similarity, it seems there are a number of MMA/Bjj that are wrapped up in this like in the fantasy MMORPG of South Park where the 30 something year old with no life and a candidate for a mental health study ( here is where there are similarities I talked about) renegade player builds a character that is intended to be invincible. That is what the original ( trolling - but entertaining) question is build on fantasy.

Please provide proof again, or just freaking stop writing. I would accept a picture of you in a bjj or judo club engaged in sparing. Bonus points if you are actually not getting tossed like a ragdoll.


As the question assumed in the view of the MMA/Bjj the Aikidoka does fall and is submitted. So if the Aikidoka doesn't fall then it would be fair to say the grappler in the question was used like a mop to clean the floor by the geeky wimpy Aikidoka.

No the question is how does the aikido person stop the takedown? More so than just the technique, how do you actually train to do it? My assumption is you sat on the mat and talked about extending ki and moving off the line of attack, then you made some gay jokes about bjj and went went out for pancakes. When a guy in a 'sport' says this works, did you know he actually did it for real?? Hard to believe? Go find out for yourself. Do some research.


Since the question is full of assumptions, let’s assume the grappler was a woman between 21-25 years of ages no more then 50 kgs. And she is an FHM model or Sports Illustrated swimsuit model. And the Aikidoka was a 20-30 something single male. Do you think the Aikidoka isn't going to fall? Well of course he does, and the fight is on as the romance fantasy novel stuff chugs on. Then afterward they both get a latte together discussing their performances on the net. :blush:

I know a few little girls who would kick the ass of most guys here in a ring, even if we were fighting our hardest. I'm sure there are even some on the web willing to travel just to do it.


I don't not know why there are a number of MMA/Bjj caught up in the fantasy that was the original question like that South Park character who built an invincible MMORPG character which was defeated by the "lesser" skilled players. I don't get it why it is an obsession with MMA/Bjj. The proof is in the number of posts and threads here and else where. So denial is mute.

Hmmmm........maybe the obsession is because people are seeing a rise in popularity and want to understand what is happening. Sadly there are people like you who would rather put Galileo to the sword rather then run the same test to see the sun does not revolve around the earth (yes I know Galileo was not killed, but they tried to).

The difference between people like you and the people who 'defend' alive training (yes they don't defend bjj/mma/judo/whatever they defend the training method. Is that these people have evidence. More on this later.


I didn't get in the martial arts with the single-minded goal to prove to the world and other arts my testosterone is secure. Well to cockfight. If I wanted to do that, I would instead learn arts that are quick and easy to learn work hard at it and combine them. First I would take backyard fighting tactics, like sitting on top of someone and punching them, etc. Boxing, wrestling's principles of balance and escape techniques, some judo principles, arm bars, and chokes the stuff before 1964 Olympics ( I am told ), and get on the "juice." Then go to a MMA/Bjj place like Mike Fooks ' place and tear 'em up. Or skip the juice, put in half the effort into physically learning the things, read up on all the arts, and troll other arts. You know get people talking.


You can see how I got confused and thought you were joking. You just said that if you wanted to actually quickly learn to fight you would train MMA and do illegal drugs. I can see though you have already selected your second option. Probably a good choice.



But I am not that way. I have no reason or purpose to prove in a cyclone fenced or roped off ring I have more testosterone then the other guy, or on the net. I prefer to never have to use my Aikido. Because the reality that has never been mentioned in this thread is that physical contact does results in injury of both fighters. In the original question it was assumed the grappler didn't get a scratch. That isn't true. Not every Aikidoka has the same mentality of defending themselves. The natural instinct to protect yourself from harm is strong under a high pressure situation. In those situations you don't know what a person is capable of under that pressure. So if the Aikidoka did fall and the natural instincts kicked in etc. and felt under a high pressure to survive the grappler may not be rolling on the ground with a few less body parts. Because we assume the grappler and the Aikidoka to both be male in the question that is another of many flaws with the question .

Ahh, the deadly instincts. If that is all you have, why bother training at all. I suppose from under the mount you can gouge eyes, or oh oh oh rip the grion!!! yea, the groin, so accessible during those brief moments of consciousness while your face turns to mash potatoes and ketchup.


I think it can be said there are a number of MMA/Bjj also not in touch with reality. Really. Of all the MMA and Bjj who train how many are good vs. how many think they are good. I know. It is easy. The few who make it in the pro venues, and even less are those who are the top fighters in those venues. Everyone else is MMORPG. I say this because really a mirror needs to be held up to many MMA/Bjj who trash talk and troll Aikido. Aikido has had mirror held up to us for years.

See again, proving you have done no research. Had you bothered to go to a school that trained with aliveness you would see that most students who have trained the same amount of time have the same level of skills. In the case of bjj, by the time these skills are a purple belt, you are basically 100% screwed if you are not an expert striker or have a significant alive grappling background. This is EXACTLY what the alive training method is about; consistently building the same skill sets and skill levels in a large group of people. You put the pro fighters at a disservice. You think that is the goal. Pro fighters are a cream above the sport. Better then the black belts. It does not take a pro fighter to be good. This s not like what I assume you are told by your instructor. It takes months, not decades to gain skill in alive arts. You think that it takes a master to be any good, and you are sadly mistaken. Again, had you done ANY research, you would of found this.


I was told in the 1964 Olympics Judo went from a martial art to a sport. Due to that, it has deteriorated, less effective then it was with all the rules and scoring etc.

You are simply wrong. The majority of throws used in competition have not changed much at all from the beginning. Different areas have been weakened by the rules, such as ground work, but the rules didn't make my harai goshi any less effective then some guys in the 1900's. FACT: when a skull meets the concrete, it doesn't end well for the skull. Have you spent any time sparing against judo practitioners? No, then stop posting assumptions about what you think you know. It makes you look like a fool.


MMA is on that very same path ever since NHB went commercial to MMA. Bjj faded out losing the spot light to the MMA fighters who made fights more exciting, etc. But with all the shift in rules, regulations and more rules etc. to come, and the exploitation and commercialization, and the marketing to keep it a entertaining Pro Wrestling comes to mind with TapouT, etc. it will choke MMA out. MMA will lose out to the next trend. as Bjj lost out to MMA. In time, it will be like Judo and wrestling now. I feel for you guys. :(
WHAT????? hang on a sec, I want to just write what a few more times...pretend I did that.

Have you been following MMA at all? There is a resurgence in grappling. Here is some homework, check out these guys:
Shinya Aoki
Jason Miller
Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira
Nick Diaz
Mitsuhiro Ishida
Ronaldo "Jacare" Souza
God I hope I really don't have to say this one - Fedor Emelianenko
Hidehiko Yoshida
Kazuhiro Nakamura
Karo Parisyan
Kenny Florian

Well you get the point. The number is only growing. What is changing is fighters are learning more and it is getting harder to win by submission. So the focus of the grappling is changing to be either better at setting up submissions, or using these skills to get takedowns and pound out your opponent.

Yes, there is the annoyance of show boating and clowning before and after fights. But that is really only in the UFC. You do realize there is more to MMA then the UFC right? I'm hoping you watch different mma venues before making up your mind on what mma is or isn't. Or MAYBE your like those mythical bjj guys you talk about who only went to 5 bjjc lasses found one under skilled crappy aikido teacher, tried it for 20 minutes, went home, got on the internet, came here, made a few hundred or thousand posts over a few years about how bjj totally owns aikido, and wastes your bandwith. Nah, i'm going to assume you have indepth knowledge of the rules and training methods employed in mma (took me a while to type that sentence)

And where do I get off all high and mighty? What gives me the right to come here and say what I say? Well nothing. EXCEPT for the fact that I put my money where my mouth is. I wanted to know what judo was like, and rather then listen to the crap spouted by everyone who was afraid to get out there and try it. All the self conscious guys worried about not being good enough, or having to do hard work, or maybe just have egos so freaking huge they had to buy a bigger hakama, I went out and tried it. Not just took a class, but gave sincere effort to learn and ask questions. Then I tested myself and saw where I was lacking. Finally I went back and tried to see how what I was doing would help me achieve my goals. I realized that what I was doing was the slowest possible path. I don't know about you, but I'm not getting any younger.

So rather then just accept what I've been told and just use blind faith and convince myself that everyone else is wrong and only this one guy I am paying money to is right, I decided to not just accept his answers without testing. I gave him the same amount of attention I gave everyone else. I also used logic and science to test what I thought might work.

The results? I did judo for a few months, new guy came in and we did some randori and he could not throw me. He was outward and clumsy. I do aikido for over a year. New guy comes in and I can't even do the simplest of techniques I've been working on 3 times a week. I do bjj for a month, new guy comes in and the stuff my teacher has taught me works. I keep doing aikido and try to show my friends a few wrist locks and find myself just holding hands with guys. I try some mma sparing and find everything I learned in aikido in all that time is just getting me punched in the face. I clinch and judo throw and now I'm not getting punched in the face.

Then I start doing interviews with people (informal). I start meeting not just a few, but dozens of people who have the same experience. Not with aikido mind you, but with tons of 'traditional' arts. And it clicks, what if I applied this alive training method to what I learned from aikido?? Fast forward a few months and now ikkyo actually works! oh my I can do wrist locks in sparing!!! I go back to aikido, and I see that yes the students are getting better. They can do awesome breakfalls, but the progress seems stalled compared to the rate i see in bjj/judo/boxing/whatever. I'm told it is because these techniques take years of drilling to master. I wanted effective self defense and fitness NOW. I didn't want a black belt now or mastery now. I wanted skills that were actually useful now.

And would they ever be useful had I not trained them alive. I would say no. I honestly believe that without alive training, nothing I ever learned would ever help me. I'll say that again.

I honestly believe that without alive training, nothing I ever learned would ever help me.

Now for the why. The first time I ever got seriously punched in the face. I've been in school yard fights, but those kids didn't want to really hurt anyone, they wanted to prove dominance. This is why I ended up friends with a lot of these guys afterward. You would fight it out and be friends. But the first time I ever did any MMA sparing. I remember that. I remember working with a guy who just hit me in the face, and I remember what I did. I turned away and covered. I didn't enter even after all that time of drilling it and being told to do it. I didn't cover and counter. I didn't clinch. I turned the back of my head to a guy throwing punches at me and exposed my back.

I've gotten past it for the most part. But when overwhelmed, I still turn away and cover when I should enter or circle. How would you suggest I fix that? I could have someone throw a shomen strike at my head over and over while I step off the line and enter. Or, I could just keep sparing and keep trying to force myself to do what I know I'm suppose to do. In any case, you would have me wait until it is simply too late to find out. if I can handle a guy in padded gloves trying to tag me, what do you think will happen when I guy wants to really hurt me? I assume you believe some mystical power will surge though me and I will rip his heart out with my bare hands (or bear hands) and then finish off his friends in true steve segal fashion, keeping one in a finger lock just long enough to fire off a witty line.

I'll tell you what would of happened. I would of trained and felt so bad ass. Then when I needed it I would of been struck and turned my head and hopefully woke up without any serious damage.

The good news? I stopped training with self defense in mind. Now i try to improve my physical health and engage in healthy friendly competition. The kind that you believe doesn't exist and I assume you traveled the world looking for.

Again, i'm sorry for being brash (but not if I offend). But I just got back from doing well over 200 squats and 50 jump sprawls, teaching a judo class, and getting my ass handed to me by a purple belt in bjj (hur hur, gay joke hur..) and read that someone with no idea of what I do wants to try to make the people who do what I do look like fools. The post I've quoted is by far the most ignorant, intolerant, holier than thou thing I've replied to on aikiweb. And (probably because of my lack of aiki) simply just pushes my buttons. And quite frankly, ever single time a discussion comes up that has the potential to help people better learn how to apply what they know or learn methods to help train what they know, some know it all has to show up from 1991 and tell us to ignore all the evidence with arguments well past the point of rebuttal. Rather then try to impart any knowledge, they simply just clutter up the page with worthless drivel.

I've tried to be polite and post evidence, but that does not work. I want to be brash in the hopes that some young impressionable student does not come here and believe this bull. But instead does their homework and actually tests out these 'theories' and finds out what actually works.

I leave you with this http://yunshui.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/2007-01-15-science-vs-faith.png

Will Prusner
08-29-2008, 12:07 AM
Yep.

oh...


Gee...I don't hear Gracie anymore, like in the 1990s, maybe Matt Huges pounded that last nail in that coffin. It's MMA now and not Bjj that is hot.

So you're upset that people are trendy?


Thats my point!

Well, that also holds for fanatically defending something.


Is that Vegan or Pork, or Chicken, or Turkey, or Beef or any type of combination hotdogs? :D

It's apples and oranges, man. You like oranges better, fine. I get it.

So what are then the other people in MMA and what are all the other people doing in MMA if they not the champion or pros?

Hopefully enjoying themselves. If not, they should find something they enjoy. But I kinda suspect most of them are just enjoying themselves.

-

Y'know normally I'd just think "Troll" and leave it at that. But you have more posts than usual trolls. It's quite a conundrum. Maybe, God forbid, you actually buy the stuff you spew.

W.

P.S. - I've never trained BJJ, Judo, or MMA in my life. But I have an open mind. It's made all the difference.

DH
08-29-2008, 12:16 AM
Just ignore him Don. You can't change the world. It's not worth trying. 5 minutes playing with the boys usually shakes some sense into people. Particularly when they see the rather benevelant and fun personalities of these "dreaded" grapplers. Personally I think the mindest, skill set, and demeaner of grapplers wins over a lot of nay sayers.
I'm arguing both sides- I'd love to get my hands on him and have a discussion, but that the only way- hands on. Let it go man, it just isn't worth it.

salim
08-29-2008, 12:17 AM
Don,

I agree with you. Unfortunately, people like Philip Burgess are the typical modern Aikidoka. I couldn't help but laugh when I read his last post. All I could say was, WOW, this guy and his thinking. His living in a fantasy world about Aikido.

Will Prusner
08-29-2008, 12:19 AM
My assumption is you sat on the mat and talked about extending ki and moving off the line of attack, then you made some gay jokes about bjj and went out for pancakes.

LMFAO. Can't breathe... omigod....laughing to hard!!!

Good points, Don!!!!!!!!!!!:)

DH
08-29-2008, 12:29 AM
LMFAO. Can't breathe... omigod....laughing to hard!!!

Good points, Don!!!!!!!!!!!:)
Well be careful. Don't go over board.
You can eat the pancakes, and I'll take all the internal ki jokes you care to dish out. Then I'll move and hit you with 6 oz gloves and actually let you in to try and throw me while "I imagine extending ki" and I will be more than happy to see who has something they want to learn after we're done. Just because one guy doesn't understand a method does nothing to invalidate or dimminish the method. Don't fall prey to the same ignorance -you- are accusing him of.

Will Prusner
08-29-2008, 12:50 AM
Well be careful. Don't go over board.
You can eat the pancakes, and I'll take all the internal ki jokes you care to dish out. Then I'll move and hit you with 6 oz gloves and actually let you in to try and throw me while "I imagine extending ki" and I will be more than happy to see who has something they want to learn after we're done. Just because one guy doesn't understand a method does nothing to invalidate or diminish the method. Don't fall prey to the same ignorance -you- are accusing him of.

No, no, no, you misunderstand, I found it hilarious because I've actually done all of those things. It just hit too close to home. For me, it was funny because it was true. Long conversations about Ki at IHOP actually makes for a pleasant evening.

I practice Qigong, too. If "imagining extending ki" is funny to me, then I would be a constant source for my own amusement.

I'm always eager to learn. Besides the one inside, my only enemy is ignorance.

W.

Aristeia
08-29-2008, 02:33 AM
Don.

Bravo.

Tim Fong
08-29-2008, 02:52 AM
Don,
I totally feel you on the aliveness thing. I've been through it too. I think that judo was a huge part of my developmental process.

As to aikido, if your instructor is saying it takes years to develop stuff like extension, well, it doesn't. To be blunt, either he doesn't have the skills , can't teach, won't teach, or you're a bad student. Sounds like you're methodical and work hard, so we can scratch bad student off the list. I know I'm being blunt here about your aikido teacher, but those are the facts.

I've seen it with my own two eyes-- a person can develop significant bodyskills within a few years, if they practice every day. I mean that. You combine those skills with alive training and well, it's good times. I know you said "you no longer concern yourself with what's internal." I'm telling you, it's a similar empirical process, just like mastering grappling or striking or any other skill. It's just a different type of attribute training. REALLY activity specific training. Proper internal development training goes solo, then two people to test the understanding against limited resistance (to test your understanding), then to actual wrestling/striking practice in freestyle (to severely test your understanding in chaotic situations). No joke. It's a _different_ way of using the body than what we normally think is the way of using the body.

Just because science can't currently explain it, doesn't mean it isn't explainable. That's a fact-- Stanford University had a taiji master in their motion capture/gait lab and the scientists couldn't explain how the guy could generate the power he did, or even how to train it. That doesn't mean it's not explainable. There's a difference between science as dogma , and science as process. Science as dogma is when people see something that isn't adequately (yet) documented and explained and say "OMG, that can't be possible, that's qi, that's stupid Asian dorks , that's bogus, that's not scientific wah wah wah." Science as process is looking at something like that and saying "weird. it's obviously happening, but we can't explain it. I wonder how it works?" And then, playing around with it to see how it works. Of course some people (I'm not putting you in this category at all) like to stick their fingers in their ears while screaming "I'm not listening, I'm not listening," despite many credible reports to the contrary. Oh well.

To me that another thing about this entire internal-arts internet movement that is so fascinating-- it's watching people from all over the world come together online (and in person, mediated by online interactions) to work on the cutting edge of what is understood about the limits of the human body. And THAT is exciting.

So why did I post this? Because I read your post and I could tell you've spent a long time thinking about and testing your training, going through a disillusionment process with aikido. So , I thought maybe you'd like to hear that there's other stuff out there that paints in the eyes of the dragon, so to speak. I think if you got a chance to check this stuff out , you'd find it fascinating. Changed my life, I can tell you that.

All the best,
Tim

DonMagee
08-29-2008, 07:08 AM
Well be careful. Don't go over board.
You can eat the pancakes, and I'll take all the internal ki jokes you care to dish out. Then I'll move and hit you with 6 oz gloves and actually let you in to try and throw me while "I imagine extending ki" and I will be more than happy to see who has something they want to learn after we're done. Just because one guy doesn't understand a method does nothing to invalidate or dimminish the method. Don't fall prey to the same ignorance -you- are accusing him of.

I mentioned ki because it pushes buttons and well, I was in a button pushing mood. My real point was in saying they talked about doing it, didn't test it, and moved on secure in the thought that they had now mastered every bjj guy on the planet.

From reading your posts I get the impression you test your stuff. That's a lot different. If you said, you can stop it like this, then got a bjj guy to work out with and tested it. That's GOOD martial training.

MM
08-29-2008, 07:23 AM
As this could very well be my last post here at aikiweb (due to the content). I'm going to make one last shot at this and just be brutally honest.


Hi Don,
Don't give up on AikiWeb. Jun is a very gracious host, a true gentleman, and worth knowing. He's created a place where the content runs from wild speculation (Takeda's training, for example) to core Aikido techniques to Seminars and everything in between. It's a pretty good place to be at.


No the question is how does the aikido person stop the takedown? More so than just the technique, how do you actually train to do it?


I didn't have time to write out my thoughts on this matter in my other post. I was going to post them in another forum, but, well, they're applicable here with your latest post.

So, how do you stop a takedown? Well, as we all laugh and joke about, we can use ki. But, the problem with that is -- "ki" has been translated and used as a definition for everything from heavenly-harmonious-merging-of-the-soul-and-universe to intent-driven-internal-rewiring.

As Dan and Tim Fong's posts point out, there is a whole different world out there for using "ki". I would hope that you'd keep an open mind about other schools and their training. You'll find yourself pleasantly surprised with some people and their training. :)

Anyway, there's certain exercises which have been posted here on AikiWeb quite a few times. They deal with contradictory forces in the body. (bear with me as I go through this) So, if you stand with your feet side by side, shoulder width apart and your arms out to your sides, use your intent to send a force out your arms and out your palms. If you just stand there and imagine this, it won't work. There really has to be a full force intent. In the very beginning, if your arms aren't feeling like they're coming out of their sockets, you aren't getting enough intent. (The reason this feels this way, IMO, is because most people use a lot of muscle to drive the intent in the beginning. As you progress, the use of muscle lessens and different feelings creep in.) So, you've got that going. Now, at the same time, use your intent to bring a force back into your palms, through your arms, and into your spine. Sometimes, beginners will actually, physically pull their scapulas together. (More muscle, but that goes away.) You have to get both going at once. If you aren't sweating after doing this for 2-3 minutes, you aren't using enough intent.

Then, you start working the spine the way you just worked the arms. The spine goes up and down, so you have to get the intent going up and down so that it stretches the spine out. Then pull the spine back together to get the contradictory force going.

Lastly, you work the legs. Each leg has a contradictory force going down into the ground and back up into the hara/center/dantien.

When all three are working, it builds a stability in the body that is hard to overcome. If your intent drops, the body becomes less stable. So, yeah, it's a lot of work to keep things going at first, but after time, you don't have to spend as much on "intent".

But, if you just start working the arms, you'll find that people will have a harder time collapsing them. Yeah, you'll still get your feet swept in judo because you're just working arms, but that's why you work all three. :)

You work these "intent" exercises until your loosen up your muscles and can get them going in a relaxed, solid manner.

And yes, it's well worth testing in an "alive" format when you get the chance. Not sure where you're located, but if I'm ever in the area, let me know and I'll try to stop by.

Mark

Demetrio Cereijo
08-29-2008, 07:43 AM
Well be careful. Don't go over board.
You can eat the pancakes, and I'll take all the internal ki jokes you care to dish out. Then I'll move and hit you with 6 oz gloves and actually let you in to try and throw me while "I imagine extending ki" and I will be more than happy to see who has something they want to learn after we're done.

Let's see: a turkish guy asks how to defend himself with aikido against grapplers...

Option A: Study Aikido and learn the real internals under a competent instructor, i.e. you or very few others who are not available to him.

Option B: Study Aikido and learn how to grapple under a competent instructor, i.e. Judo/BJJ/MMA/Sambo/Yağlı güreş... who is teaching where he lives.

Which one do you recommend?

gdandscompserv
08-29-2008, 08:04 AM
Unfortunately, people like Philip Burgess are the typical modern Aikidoka.
Now there's a sterotype fo ya!

DH
08-29-2008, 08:12 AM
Let's see: a turkish guy asks how to defend himself with aikido against grapplers...

Option A: Study Aikido and learn the real internals under a competent instructor, i.e. you or very few others who are not available to him.

Option B: Study Aikido and learn how to grapple under a competent instructor, i.e. Judo/BJJ/MMA/Sambo/Yağlı güreş... who is teaching where he lives.

Which one do you recommend?
Years ago on E-budo I had a fella ask me:
"I want to develop aiki to the point where I have usable skills.Should I stay in Aikido, or go to a Daito ryu dojo?"
To which I responded.
"If you have a really good Judo dojo in your area, walk in and ask them."
He did, and never left.
Answer your question?

These days I'd include BJJ. MMA is dicey as there are more and more grappling gyms opening up that I would go to experiment in but not learn in.

a) I would never train without internals-they are the single greatest advantage in the world-bar none.
b) Live training is the second greatest advantage in the world

Both of which need to compliment each other. Grappling practice; drill's coupled with punching, kicking, positional control, with continually trained internal power for increased speed and control and power generation is the bast way to maximise your game.
After all the hoopla, in the end good grappling is taught and learned through "kata" yes...kata- now called drills. The advantage of live training is trying to get it to work against someone who doesn't want it to work. Then...finding out just what an advantage internal power is in being able to knock someone out from one foot away when trying to make it work or in seeing guys get gassed fighting a body that is relaxed in motion and that feels like a steel belted radial all while using less energy to do so.

The really encouraging part for folks who want to remain in aikido is that training (a) offers power that gives the aikidoka a stunning advantage over those who train in (b) only. While I think aikidoka will start to look different in their movements and responses to a grappler, there method in doing so will be their aiki, able to deliver power and control...in spades.
No more need for turning and evading.

MM
08-29-2008, 08:55 AM
The really encouraging part for folks who want to remain in aikido is that training (a) offers power that gives the aikidoka a stunning advantage over those who train in (b) only. While I think aikidoka will start to look different in their movements and responses to a grappler, there method in doing so will be their aiki, able to deliver power and control...in spades.
No more need for turning and evading.

I think the last sentence should have a disclaimer on it. No more need for turning™ and evading™. Turning and evading can still be practical strategy tools.

gdandscompserv
08-29-2008, 09:27 AM
I think the last sentence should have a disclaimer on it. No more need for turning™ and evading™. Turning and evading can still be practical strategy tools.
Especially if being pursued by pit bulls!:eek:

Kevin Leavitt
08-29-2008, 10:32 AM
Don,

Tim gives some good advice. I agree with his comments and observations concerning teaching aikido and extended KI and what not.

FWIW, I worked with Tim a little when he was over here on the east coat for the Aunkai seminar.

Tim, you weigh like what....145-155 pounds soaking wet?

Tim has been working hard on aiki, BTW I don't think he is an Aikidoka either by any stretch of the imagination.

Doing the Aunkai exercises and Jo staff work, Tim was very impressive and strong. I weigh about 90 lbs more than Tim for sure.

He will also tell you that he is not any where near and expert level, but a rote beginner, which I would agree to, but much better and the conditioning drills, and internal skills stuff than I.

Anyway, has nothing to do with "he can kick my ass" or "yea I can't do it, but I can kick his ass" mentality. The thing is, that is impressive to see guys learn "Aiki" (Aunkai) and be able to do this stuff.

Just thought I'd throw that out there!

If you have time, it would be well worth it for you to spend time with Mike Sigman, Dan, or Ark...if only for a weekend. It will open your eyes to looking at aiki in a way that you may not have considered.

As you know, I share your same observations concerning aliveness, grappling, Judo, and BJJ.

I do have to laugh eating pancakes and talking about KI..I have done that very thing as well. :)

barry.clemons
08-29-2008, 10:33 AM
As this could very well be my last post here at aikiweb (due to the content). I'm going to make one last shot at this and just be brutally honest.


Please don't do that, sir. I personally value your insight and would very much miss your contributions here. :(

DH
08-29-2008, 10:55 AM
Guys
What Don meant was he was going after the poster in a way that Jun may object to and thus it may be his last post as Jun would "card him" for it. He wasn't saying he was going to leave. I swear people skim posts and don't read.

Jun has had enough of the perosnal side of debating and is asking us to find a way to debate the subject not the people.
I fail occadionally and try to apologize and stay on point.

DonMagee
08-29-2008, 12:11 PM
Exactly, I wrote my post, read it considered not posting it because it is a verbal attack and probably insulting, but I decided that the content was valuable enough to me to risk going against what is considered proper attitude. I just wanted to make it clear that I accept the consequences of any and all of my actions, I felt it was that important.

Kevin Leavitt
08-29-2008, 12:46 PM
If I stop responding directly to a poster, it pretty much means that I have nothing left good/constructive to say, or I think he/she is full of crap. That is how I handle it.

mathewjgano
08-29-2008, 05:04 PM
Exactly, I wrote my post, read it considered not posting it because it is a verbal attack and probably insulting, but I decided that the content was valuable enough to me to risk going against what is considered proper attitude. I just wanted to make it clear that I accept the consequences of any and all of my actions, I felt it was that important.

Don, I felt you were in keeping with the tone of the post you were replying to. Buck gave his impressions; you gave yours. I dig what he was saying about testosterone and competitive sports like MMA. I also think he was overly simplistic in his description, never mind the relative differences in what "testosterone driven" means to different people. The fact is you can't talk about a large group of people in simple terms because large groups always have a large variety. That's one of the reasons I tend to "retort" so much to folks I perceive as describing the Aikido community as this or that (something I think Buck was trying to do though I could be wrong of course).
For the same reason I was having difficulty forming a post of my own in this thread (I managed:uch: ) because taking a "grappler" and an "aikidoka" can mean taking any number of traits and abilities, all of which have more to do with the specific dojo/whatever those individuals actually spend their time training in. The art means little to me; it's what we do with the art which makes it what it is.
That said I don't see much different between grappling and aikido except that to me grappling implies more use of contractive forces (my assumption) while aikido as I understand it is purely expansive (relative to the center/hara). I've had people try to take me to the ground by pulling on my leg. This contractive motion makes my expansive efforts shoot my knee right into their chest. I'm not saying this is an accurate description of "grappling" because the more I pay attention, the more it seems that really at the highest levels, all arts begin to look the same...probably because at those levels people are realizing a more complete interaction with their body and we all share the same basic human shape.

Buck
08-29-2008, 07:30 PM
I guess my posts have hit home for allot. I am sorry the reactions are not constructive but that is what happens when a cord is struck and they don't like it. And they run out of defenses and have to see things for what they are.

It is easy to dish it out, but harder to take it, criticism that is. This is an Aikido board and there is a wide range of serious Aikidoka of different styles and beliefs in what Aikido is and isn't. But we all agree on one thing that Aikido offers more then one thing. It is an art that is to be explored and it isn't reduced to a fight that lasts mins. Aikido is complex and allot of people don't have the patience to go the distance.

Aikido is often criticized because I think it is misunderstood by those on the outside and inside. O'Sensei wasn't definitive and was very artistic and skilled. Great artists are often misunderstood. Because of O'Sensei there have been great Aikidoka, martial artists, and those inspired and impressed by him from common folk to royalty all over the world. Aikido because of O'Sensei is internationally recognized and respected. Aikido is a common household world in many places for decades. It was and is taught and used by military, police, and governments around the world for decades. It has proven its worth and effectiveness. There are thousands of books written on it. And countless amount of bandwith dedicated to it. Aikido isn't simply a fighting art, it is an embassador of the world that has a message so many people are willing to follow to make the world a better place. That is worth every amount of criticism anyone can throw at it, including the original (trolling) question that started this thread. Aikido isn't simply about fighting with someone else in a ring for money. Aikido for all its faults is about being human. I think that is also what this Aikido board reflects.

Kevin Leavitt
08-29-2008, 07:54 PM
BJJ is often criticized because I think it is misunderstood by those on the outside and inside. Carlos wasn't definitive and was very artistic and skilled. Great artists are often misunderstood. Because of Carlos there have been great BJJer, martial artists, and those inspired and impressed by him from common folk to royalty all over the world. BJJ because of Carlos is internationally recognized and respected. BJJ is a common household world in many places for decades. It was and is taught and used by military, police, and governments around the world for decades. It has proven its worth and effectiveness. There are thousands of books written on it. And countless amount of bandwith dedicated to it. BJJ isn't simply a fighting art, it is an embassador of the world that has a message so many people are willing to follow to make the world a better place. That is worth every amount of criticism anyone can throw at it, including the original (trolling) question that started this thread. BJJ isn't simply about fighting with someone else in a ring for money. BJJ for all its faults is about being human. I think that is also what this Aikido board reflects.

Will Prusner
08-29-2008, 08:10 PM
Thanks, Kev. I subscribe to the belief that you could pretty much interchange just about any serious discipline in the place of BJJ or Aikido.

DH
08-29-2008, 08:18 PM
Hi Kevin
I agree with every single thing you just laid out, but I think I have to take that one step further. I think most wrestllers, grapplers, Judoka and...BJJers I have met and played with over the years are a model of good budo men by any standard I have ever...ever, seen. I have never met a single one who exhibtied the passive agressive garbage I have seen in some Traditional artist and teachers. Are they confident? you bet, but it is a confidence born from sweat, failure and wins. Most having learned from honing those skills many times from the flat of thier backs.
Most grapplers have a very real sense of failure and testing and that...changes a man. Grapplers are on the whole among the cleanest (less issues) and good to go folks you will find in MA. Everytime I hear comments about meatheads, or blood and guts violent men in grappling I know they come from folks with little exposure in the field discussed.

Kevin Leavitt
08-29-2008, 08:54 PM
Dan you did catch the irony of that post didn't you? Look at Phil's last paragraph above mine. Just making a point.

I agree with your comments.

Interesting we had a new guy show up this morning. 30 something..never really done much jiujitsu...first time in a GI.

20 years Greco Roman, Freestyle, Nationally Ranked NCAA guy back in the day.

He is a natural at this stuff. Owned all of us pretty much, with the exception when I pulled some cheap crap like pulling guard or ankle locks cause he wasn't used to them.

Anyway, I fully expect that he will be promoted to a senior blue or purple belt very soon in BJJ as his skills are up to par.

We were discussing the honesty that comes along with grappling arts as they have a way of holding you accountable and keeping you focused on reality.

None of us were reallly too upset that a new guy could walk in and own us..we were really excited at the proposition that we now had a big challenge which would only serve to make us better.

The passive agressive stuff doesn't last. It tears you up inside and ends up eating a hole in you. Guys that have this tude will leave usually after a while anyway as they can't stand it.

That bonds that are formed, as you know, through the hard work, blood, sweat, and pain forges you both as a person and as a team.

The competition aspect is but the stage for us to come together and test ourselves.

Those that have never experienced bond and experience might have a hard time understanding the nature of it.

It can be found in other ways, like in aikido.

However, the best experiences for me have been the really physically and mentally demanding ones that challenge you at the core.

barry.clemons
08-29-2008, 11:11 PM
Guys
What Don meant was he was going after the poster in a way that Jun may object to and thus it may be his last post as Jun would "card him" for it. He wasn't saying he was going to leave. I swear people skim posts and don't read.

Jun has had enough of the perosnal side of debating and is asking us to find a way to debate the subject not the people.
I fail occadionally and try to apologize and stay on point.

I knew what he meant. My plea was for him to reconsider.

Keith R Lee
08-29-2008, 11:33 PM
Great post Don. Agreed 100%.

I've posted this before, but Kevin's post brought it to mind again:


"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt
"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910

Aristeia
08-30-2008, 01:04 AM
I guess my posts have hit homec for allot. I am sorry the reactions are not constructive but that is what happens when a cord is struck and they don't like it.

Interestingly enough it's also what happens when people are faced with repeated ignorance and lose patience. Go figure.

But we all agree on one thing that Aikido offers more then one thing. It is an art that is to be explored and it isn't reduced to a fight that lasts mins. Aikido is complex and allot of people don't have the patience to go the distance.

Same with BJJ. And MMA for that matter. Your problem is the only exposure you have to it is what you've seen on the UFC - which is why you assume that that's all there is to it. You're spectacularly wrong. You make comments that indicate you think everyone that trains mma is doing so to enter the ufc - and are thus fooling themselves. This makes you look silly. People train mma for the same reasons they train any art. Fitness, self improvement, a venue to test oneself (and thus meet oneself)and of course self defence.
Competition is but a small aspect of the gig for many of us.

Tim Fong
08-30-2008, 01:16 AM
Don,

Tim gives some good advice. I agree with his comments and observations concerning teaching aikido and extended KI and what not.

FWIW, I worked with Tim a little when he was over here on the east coat for the Aunkai seminar.

Tim, you weigh like what....145-155 pounds soaking wet?

Tim has been working hard on aiki, BTW I don't think he is an Aikidoka either by any stretch of the imagination.

Doing the Aunkai exercises and Jo staff work, Tim was very impressive and strong. I weigh about 90 lbs more than Tim for sure.

He will also tell you that he is not any where near and expert level, but a rote beginner, which I would agree to, but much better and the conditioning drills, and internal skills stuff than I.

Anyway, has nothing to do with "he can kick my ass" or "yea I can't do it, but I can kick his ass" mentality. The thing is, that is impressive to see guys learn "Aiki" (Aunkai) and be able to do this stuff.

Just thought I'd throw that out there!

If you have time, it would be well worth it for you to spend time with Mike Sigman, Dan, or Ark...if only for a weekend. It will open your eyes to looking at aiki in a way that you may not have considered.

As you know, I share your same observations concerning aliveness, grappling, Judo, and BJJ.

I do have to laugh eating pancakes and talking about KI..I have done that very thing as well. :)

Kevin,
Thanks for the kind words. I'm around 130, and definitely a beginner. I know I have a long way to go before my training is complete. And though I may have some internal training, I'm a ways from being able to absorb one of your full power overhand rights. Not to mention 4 or 5 of them in a row :) And the training you and your guys do, is awesome. Bujutsu for the modern era, I think. Thank you for sharing your insights with me.

Stay safe out there this weekend, and I hope we can all train together again soon.

Best,
Tim

Aristeia
08-30-2008, 01:55 AM
Good to see some actual bonding going on.

You see it's interesting - the veracity of the source makes such a difference. A year ago I would have dismissed out of hand any talk of internal power, yaddah yaddah as just not valid - TMAers living in their ivory castles (the same ones in which I used to reside)

But then Dan talks as someone who understands aliveness and sounds like he trains that way. Intriguing. Intrigued but not convinced.

Then Kevin says he's experienced some of what Dan talks about and it's real. Given every thing else Kevin says is pretty much bang on with what I've experienced this gives me serious pause.

So now while I'm still not sure what guys like Dan are talking about, if I had the opportunity to find out I'd definately be interested. (shame I'm so far away).

IOW you can tell who's talking from a position of live experience and who's opinions deserve merit even if they don't mesh with your beliefs, and who's just blowing smoke..

rob_liberti
08-30-2008, 06:35 AM
I totally see where people are coming from here.

I think though that I may be one of the few people who have an aikido class after a grappling class in more than 1 place.

I see the the look of disdain in the faces of the wrestlers/bjj/whatever groundfighting system is before my classes when we start doing simple warms ups.

Both lead to better people, but neither system necessarily works miracles.

Rob

DonMagee
08-30-2008, 09:02 AM
I guess my posts have hit home for allot. I am sorry the reactions are not constructive but that is what happens when a cord is struck and they don't like it. And they run out of defenses and have to see things for what they are.

It is easy to dish it out, but harder to take it, criticism that is. This is an Aikido board and there is a wide range of serious Aikidoka of different styles and beliefs in what Aikido is and isn't. But we all agree on one thing that Aikido offers more then one thing. It is an art that is to be explored and it isn't reduced to a fight that lasts mins. Aikido is complex and allot of people don't have the patience to go the distance.

Aikido is often criticized because I think it is misunderstood by those on the outside and inside. O'Sensei wasn't definitive and was very artistic and skilled. Great artists are often misunderstood. Because of O'Sensei there have been great Aikidoka, martial artists, and those inspired and impressed by him from common folk to royalty all over the world. Aikido because of O'Sensei is internationally recognized and respected. Aikido is a common household world in many places for decades. It was and is taught and used by military, police, and governments around the world for decades. It has proven its worth and effectiveness. There are thousands of books written on it. And countless amount of bandwith dedicated to it. Aikido isn't simply a fighting art, it is an embassador of the world that has a message so many people are willing to follow to make the world a better place. That is worth every amount of criticism anyone can throw at it, including the original (trolling) question that started this thread. Aikido isn't simply about fighting with someone else in a ring for money. Aikido for all its faults is about being human. I think that is also what this Aikido board reflects.

I can take what I dish out. I can dish out examples, testing, and evidence. What you were dishing out was opinion on a subject where you have done zero research or training and gave no real examples, but simply made claims.

I do not feel that modern aikido has proven its effectiveness. I feel that it can add a extra layer of strategy to someone who has skill in fighting, but as a stand alone training system, it does not develop the skills needed properly. I base this on my limited experience in aikido, my intermediate experience in judo and bjj, my first hand experience with aliveness n training, and my talking to the many many aikidoka about how they train and what they expect to get from that training.

And that would be fine. Except that there are people who want to claim aikido is everything to everyone. It is either a martial art, or it isn't. If it is not useful in fighting, stop using the word martial.

http://yunshui.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/2007-01-15-science-vs-faith.png

gdandscompserv
08-30-2008, 09:52 AM
I do not feel that modern aikido has proven its effectiveness. I feel that it can add a extra layer of strategy to someone who has skill in fighting, but as a stand alone training system, it does not develop the skills needed properly.It is either a martial art, or it isn't. If it is not useful in fighting, stop using the word martial.
Don,
I think you are holding aikido to a standard that you don't hold other martial arts to. Most people recognize that no single martial art is a "stand alone training system." Isn't that why people developed MMA? Sincere martial artists have been cross training since the dawn of martial arts. And to say that it's not useful in fighting is a bit over the top.
Ricky

Aikibu
08-30-2008, 11:59 AM
I do not feel that modern aikido has proven its effectiveness. I feel that it can add a extra layer of strategy to someone who has skill in fighting, but as a stand alone training system, it does not develop the skills needed properly. I base this on my limited experience in aikido, my intermediate experience in judo and bjj, my first hand experience with aliveness n training, and my talking to the many many aikidoka about how they train and what they expect to get from that training.

LOL Once again it comes down to this....

You have been saying this for years on a few forums and no matter where you start in a thread it always comes down to this.Why?

Read my words carefully Don...

You can't change something by whining about it. Either you roll up your gi sleeves and DO something about changing the status of Aikido Training or We Aikidoka on the mat are going to tune out your "observations" from the peanut gallery at the back of the bleachers.

And that would be fine. Except that there are people who want to claim aikido is everything to everyone. It is either a martial art, or it isn't. If it is not useful in fighting, stop using the word martial.

Again I have read about this chip you have on your shoulder forever...These mythical "people" who claim Aikido is everything to everyone represent less that 1/100 of 1% of all the Aikidoka practicing and That would be like me saying the WWF/WWE and Vince McMahon represent grappling.

Ever heard of the "80/20" rule for modern management?

Stop wasting your time Don. Either put up or with all due respect find something more constructive to do with your time.

The simple fact is Aikido is a Martial Art and it works. Maybe not as well as it should but last time I checked there was room for improvement in every Martial Art I have experienced including Boxing, Grappling and BJJ.

Don't believe me. the go see Dan Hardin. I'll bet after a few sessions with him you "feel' exactly what I am talking about. I can't wait to see what that practice will do for our Aikido... Which technically is pretty darn good to begin with as a Martial Art.

http://yunshui.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/2007-01-15-science-vs-faith.png

LOL....Oh man....

Take Care Don.

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
08-30-2008, 04:32 PM
Don wrote:

I do not feel that modern aikido has proven its effectiveness. I feel that it can add a extra layer of strategy to someone who has skill in fighting, but as a stand alone training system, it does not develop the skills needed properly. I base this on my limited experience in aikido, my intermediate experience in judo and bjj, my first hand experience with aliveness n training, and my talking to the many many aikidoka about how they train and what they expect to get from that training.

Well I think it depends on what you mean by effectiveness. For most of us grapplers on the list, I think we have a good idea about how we would define effectiveness.

Once you start taking a budo mindset, I think it takes on a different and maybe a deeper meaning. I am wondering where all us MMA guys will be in our training 20 and 30 years from now. Does it evolve into something else as we grow older, wiser, calmer?

How do you envision yourself in the dojo in your 70s? What will be the important thing you are trying to cultivate in your students? What legacy are you aspiring to leave the world?

Here is essentially what I was told the purpose of AIkido was when I began Training: (excerpt from Aikido Shobukan's Website...Saotome Sensei's Dojo)

http://www.aikido-shobukan.org/?ref=42

Purpose of Aikido
Aikido is different in its training purpose from other martial arts. Martial arts are often practiced to gain fighting prowess. Through his varied experiences, O Sensei realized that simply accumulating strength for fighting is ultimately futile. He saw the true purpose of Budo to be refinement of the individual. O Sensei created Aikido as a martial way for students to develop a strong body and a mind that is calm, free from contentious thoughts, and whose natural reaction is defense rather than offense, protection rather than counter-destruction.

O Sensei wrote:
“Budo is not felling the opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world into destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect, and cultivate all beings in nature.”

Kevin Leavitt
08-30-2008, 04:52 PM
"O' Sensei created Aikido as a martial way for students to develop a strong body and mind that is calm, free from contenious thoughts, and whose natural reaction is defense rather than offense, protection rather than counter-destruction".

An interesting statement. One that is loaded with lots of room for interpretation.

Strong body. How much time in aikido do we really spend developing a "strong body"?

What IS a "Strong Body"?

I think Dan, Mike, and Ark have some very good opinions on what this means. Also much of the core conditioning I do in Grappling and Yoga is also good. But again, how much time or effort do most dojos really put in devleoping this?

Mind that is calm. Well Budo practice I think CAN do this, if it is trained properly, over and over, and over. I think most of us here also agree that "Aliveness training" allows us to go through the forging process while also developing appropriate reponses (startle/flinch).

I think most aikido organizations take the approach which we would call "dry fire" or "relfexive fire training in shooting and CQB. Doing things slow and methodical to develop good habits. At some point it needs to be linked back to aliveness though.

Free of contentious thought. I think this is where things get a little squirrely. Couple that with the comment immediately following...Defensive, not offensive....and you have the makings for a bad budo situation for those that do not come from a martial culture.

We begin to think things such as "MMA is the opposite of Aikido because it trains you to be offensive...therefore, it must fill you with contentious thoughts".

I know that seems silly, but think about the logic a minute....

THose that form a affinity with something like aikido really want to believe that there is something special, different, and unique, about the Budo practice that give us special or unique insight that cannot be gained easily from any other way.

I think it is natural for us to want to assume that we must draw a clear distinction from other forms of MA training.

Anyway, I think it is a noble goal (and one of mine) to better learn to free myself from contention. I think aikido, done properly allows you to explore all aspects of physical and mental violence, and can indeed show us ways to better refine our skillfulness.

I think it can be a wonderful allegory for peace and harmony.

I also think that it cannot come easy without walking the line between offense and defense, violence and no violence...AND it must be done full spectrum with elements of aliveness and connection.

Anyway...starting to ramble.

I think that alot of what we do in aikido is misunderstood, misinterpreted, and applied incorrectly as a training methodology.

You can't have calm without understanding violence. You cannot have a good defense without understanding offense.

What many of us grapplers that have stuck with aikido...I think, have discovered is a better understanding of that dynamic.

A dynamic that I think in many respects has become lost in the translation in many cases in the west as aikido took hold here in the 1970s. (over generalization, I know, but I think it is probably true in alot of cases) YMMV with various instructors etc.

Aristeia
08-30-2008, 05:43 PM
I am wondering where all us MMA guys will be in our training 20 and 30 years from now. Does it evolve into something else as we grow older, wiser, calmer?

How do you envision yourself in the dojo in your 70s? What will be the important thing you are trying to cultivate in your students? What legacy are you aspiring to leave the world?


Couple of thoughts on this from my personal perspective.

First of all from an MMA perspective - I think we're still in the sports youth and we'll see plenty of evolution still to come, that'll take care of another 10-15 years.
BJJ as you know, the better you get the more it flows so at 70 I hope to be flowing round the young bucks.

My goal as an instructor and coach I feel is pretty simple. Have people leave training more empowered than when they walked in. That covers a gamut of things - physical efficacy, confidence, mental strategies for succes, pursuit of execellence....etc etc.

Whatever tools I'm using to do that, BJJ MMA, NLP, Aikido - the goal remains the same.

As to what I'll be doing in 20 years time - still BJJ and MMA. But if I was looking in a crystal ball, I wouldn't be surprised to learn Aikido has become a more central part of my training again.

And here's why. I have never figured out away to take the techniques and approach of Aikido and transform it into a sparring environment due the difference in assumptions on the intent of the attacker. But I believe the Aikido method needs to be build on a more solid foundation of live training - which means other arts.

It seems likely Ueshiba had lots of rough n tumble training before settling on the "peaceful" method. Same with his top students. As I believe has been discussed on this board before, I think an issue with modern Aikido is people trying to start at Ueshibas end point without going through a simiilar type of evolution.

Theres aspects of aikido which can be effective just from training aikido. There are a few stories floating around about folk using it against the untrained- so there's something there.

But I suspect, after 20 years of BJJ/MMA, I will have an indepth appreciation of leverage, balance and body movement under pressure. A finely tuned sense of timing and distance, an ability to see attacks,gaps and opportunities.

In other words all the things that would make the "techniques" of aikido truly functional. At this point I may well be ready to go back to it in more detail.

Will be interesting to see...

Kevin Leavitt
08-30-2008, 06:03 PM
Michael Fooks wrote:

First of all from an MMA perspective - I think we're still in the sports youth and we'll see plenty of evolution still to come, that'll take care of another 10-15 years.
BJJ as you know, the better you get the more it flows so at 70 I hope to be flowing round the young bucks.

A BJJ black belt friend of mine rolled with Helio in the past couple of years (in his 90s), I asked him what it was like. He said, "well he is good, but he is in his 90's and you know, he does "old guy" jiujitsu, so you have to work with it." but he is still impressive for his age and still has lots to teach.

And here's why. I have never figured out away to take the techniques and approach of Aikido and transform it into a sparring environment due the difference in assumptions on the intent of the attacker. But I believe the Aikido method needs to be build on a more solid foundation of live training - which means other arts.


I have the same issue as well. Of lately, I am thinking that the issue is not with trying to adapt aikido, as it assumes that there is something inherently different and distinct that is not in BJJ and vice versa. The issue I think is simply, as you state, the paradiqm dealing with different assumptions etc. It is starting to make sense to me now as I no longer view it from a technical standpoint of a collection of moves or an attack chain, if you will, but from a perspective of "appropriate response".

The stuff I did with Mike Sigman and Ark/Rob John shed some light on this issue as I experienced more connectedness and began understanding what really moving form the core and ground is all about, (not that I can do it very well).

NLP! I thought I was the only one that got into that stuff! I agree it has a place. Never have heard anyone else mention it though!

Michael, you and I have alot in common on how we see things.

Aristeia
08-30-2008, 06:13 PM
yeah I'm a certified NLP practitioner (as part of my day job) and will probably get my master practitioner next year. I use it alot in the club as well to pretty good effect.

Michael, you and I have alot in common on how we see things.

yep - hopefully at some stage we'll find ourselves on the same part of the planet with some mats nearby...

Shany
08-30-2008, 06:20 PM
yeah I'm a certified NLP practitioner (as part of my day job) and will probably get my master practitioner next year. I use it alot in the club as well to pretty good effect.

yep - hopefully at some stage we'll find ourselves on the same part of the planet with some mats nearby...

NLP is a superb way to help people excel in many areas in life and shorten the way to their success.

Michael, you had the chance of learning / listening from/to Chris Howard's NLP (Practitionair / Master ) serieses? Or learned (ever thought of) from the source it self: Bandler ?

Aristeia
08-30-2008, 06:20 PM
Yeah - unfortunately once the marketers got a hold of it it is percieved by some as tool for manipulation. Which is a shame cause it completely misses the point.

Shany
08-30-2008, 06:25 PM
Yeah - unfortunately once the marketers got a hold of it it is percieved by some as tool for manipulation. Which is a shame cause it completely misses the point.

True on that note.

Kevin Leavitt
08-30-2008, 06:38 PM
Wow, I have only been exposed to the concept of NLP, many years ago. I see the application, but have no background in it at all. Would love to hear your insights.

Aristeia
08-30-2008, 07:16 PM
it's a big topic - I'll start a new thread later tonight...

Kevin Leavitt
08-30-2008, 07:37 PM
thanks. Look forward to it.

Kevin Leavitt
08-30-2008, 07:39 PM
I have to warn you in advance though that we will probably have a thread eventually called "defending against NLP using Aikido". :)

Aristeia
08-30-2008, 08:31 PM
lol

DonMagee
08-30-2008, 10:59 PM
LOL Once again it comes down to this....

You have been saying this for years on a few forums and no matter where you start in a thread it always comes down to this.Why?


Because it is what I believe and I've come across no evidence to the contrary.


Read my words carefully Don...

You can't change something by whining about it. Either you roll up your gi sleeves and DO something about changing the status of Aikido Training or We Aikidoka on the mat are going to tune out your "observations" from the peanut gallery at the back of the bleachers.


You can lead a horse to water....

I simply do not care about 'fixing' aikido. It's not worth my time. What I care about is stopping people from spreading what I feel are lies about what people can and can't gain from 'sports'. I'm sick of hearing it, and being that I have a lot of free time on the internets, I make it my personal mission to put forth a counter argument. I don't want to fix anything, I want people (especially new ones looking for what they want) from getting lied to. Every time someone says "Oh don't worry about X, thats a sport and useless against the power of our art, they do a huge disservice to the truth. People in martial arts tend to be very faith based. They tend to go along with what they are told because they are paying money and deep down simply do not want to face the truth that what they are paying money for may not work. I want people to just think about what they want and what they are getting from their training and to be honest. Nothing more.


Again I have read about this chip you have on your shoulder forever...These mythical "people" who claim Aikido is everything to everyone represent less that 1/100 of 1% of all the Aikidoka practicing and That would be like me saying the WWF/WWE and Vince McMahon represent grappling.


The problem is that the 1/100 of 1% seem to be the most vocal. And yes, I do have a chip. I've wasted TONS of time because I was lied to. I don't want to see that happen to anyone else. If I was on a bjj forum and was reading the same kind of bull, I'd call them on that as well.


Ever heard of the "80/20" rule for modern management?

Stop wasting your time Don. Either put up or with all due respect find something more constructive to do with your time.


You are right. I should stop wasting my time. But I am an idealist. I believe that if I can save one kid from wasting their time on ineffective training, it was worth it. If I can save one kid from believe his is a modern day samurai and can defeat anyone with a wave of his hand, it was worth it. One of the purposes of judo was to foster mutual benefit and welfare. It is for our benefit that we cut this crap already. It has existed for far too long. I have worn thin however and honestly, I've hoped every day I go to a place that does not training with aliveness that I will be wrong and that something fundamentally life changing will happen. Every time I make a post, I secretly hope for the same. How many posts have I made? How many times has someone on the other side of the argument posted a single shred of evidence? It is disheartening.


The simple fact is Aikido is a Martial Art and it works. Maybe not as well as it should but last time I checked there was room for improvement in every Martial Art I have experienced including Boxing, Grappling and BJJ.

Maybe, but I never said it was not a martial art. The problem is that when confronted with evidence that there are better ways to develop skills, the common response is "well we are not training for actually using these techniques". In the same breath you will then be told that X sensei could defeat all comers. It ether is or it isn't. You either train for martial application, or you don't.


Don't believe me. the go see Dan Hardin. I'll bet after a few sessions with him you "feel' exactly what I am talking about. I can't wait to see what that practice will do for our Aikido... Which technically is pretty darn good to begin with as a Martial Art.



Is he an average modern aikdoka? I don't talk about special people. I don't care about top MMA fighters, or unique skills some guy has. I care about the average guy. (That is not to say that I personally do not want to train with unique or top individuals.) If you take a room full of guys and send them to different aikido schools all over the country for 1 year, what results can you expect? Are they ready to defend themselves? Can they handle being punched in the face? How would they fair in a controlled fighting situation with a untrained opponent of equal or greater size and strength?

There are plenty of people out there that can school me using anything. I'm not all that tough. My judo and bjj instructors both blow my mind every time I get on the mat with them. That doesn't matter to me. But when I see that guy do a week of judo and know that in a few months if a guy comes off the street to grapple with him there is a better then average chance he is going to throw him on his head, that matters to me. When I see that training method that is predictable and repeatable, that matters to me.

And if someone says "I'm not in it for that" then I'm all for them. Honesty in training is what this is about. That is why I waste my time here. If I didn't have to spend some much time in front of a computer for work, I'd probably be at the club and you would never even know I exist.

Would I train with him? Sure, if I had the means I would train with everyone who offers it. There is no substitute for experience as long as you are honest about what is happening and what you want. I frequently make drop ins in places within my travel range and train with them. I make no challenges and I do what is asked and respect the customs. I am also honest when asked, which has lead to a few 'misunderstandings'.


LOL....Oh man....

Take Care Don.

William Hazen

You too, I'm always happy to have a conversation.

DH
08-31-2008, 11:25 PM
William Hazen wrote:
Don't believe me. the go see Dan Hardin. I'll bet after a few sessions with him you "feel' exactly what I am talking about. I can't wait to see what that practice will do for our Aikido... Which technically is pretty darn good to begin with as a Martial Art.

Don wrote:
Is he an average modern aikdoka? I don't talk about special people. I don't care about top MMA fighters, or unique skills some guy has. I care about the average guy. (That is not to say that I personally do not want to train with unique or top individuals.) If you take a room full of guys and send them to different aikido schools all over the country for 1 year, what results can you expect? Are they ready to defend themselves? Can they handle being punched in the face? How would they fair in a controlled fighting situation with a untrained opponent of equal or greater size and strength?
I care about the average guy too Don. Thats why I started doing this for the first time in my life.

A few things
Don't get me involved in defending Aikido™. On any other day I'm on Don's side.
And were someone to ever, hopefully, finally, please God someday........express a real understanding of my views- they would see I am advocating both sides!!!

1. Anyone asks me the best martial training to do? Aikido or Daito ryu? I tell them to go do judo, BJJ or MMA.

2. Anyone asks me what the finest skill in the world is? I tell them internal power / aiki.

What William and most others misunderstand is nowhere in that equation would I EVER.... E-V-E-R recommend training in Aikido™ to attain those goals. Not under any single person I have ever met, or know or have heard of. I most certainly do NOT agree with Wiliam that technically (Aikido™) is pretty darn good to begin with. In fact I think Aikido suffers serious technical flaws and even foundational errors in its approach to training a "martial" method to anyone.

What I am advocating is Aiki...do. Which is not to be confused with Aikido™. It is my intention, to become part of the solution. To train aikido teachers to regain the power that was in Ueshiba's vision in the first place, and re-instate the aiki arts as formidable martial arts. To make an art that is more than capable of handling grapplers as well as less narrow in scope threats. Aikido™ as I currently see it-is not. I’ll bet on the grappler-every time.

Don is right in that I am not to be used as an example. Don will be wrong about Aikido as aiki...do-in years to come- if I am successful in my own small contribution to the art. Notice I do not speak of Mike or Ark. While both are more than capable-Mike seems by his repeated commentary to be uninterested in the martial aspects of this. And I don't know what Ark's goals are.

Have great holiday everyone.

Buck
09-01-2008, 09:56 AM
I care about the average guy too Don. Thats why I started doing this for the first time in my life.

A few things
Don't get me involved in defending Aikido™.

And were someone to ever, hopefully, finally, please God someday........express a real understanding of my views- they would see I am advocating both sides!!!

1. Anyone asks me the best martial training to do? Aikido or Daito ryu? I tell them to go do judo, BJJ or MMA.

2. Anyone asks me what the finest skill in the world is? I tell them internal power / aiki.

What William and most others misunderstand is nowhere in that equation would I EVER.... E-V-E-R recommend training in Aikido™ to attain those goals.

In fact I think Aikido suffers serious technical flaws and even foundational errors in its approach to training a "martial" method to anyone.

What I am advocating is Aiki...do. Which is not to be confused with Aikido™.

It is my intention, to become part of the solution.

To train aikido teachers to regain the power that was in Ueshiba's vision in the first place, and re-instate the aiki arts as formidable martial arts.

To make an art that is more than capable of handling grapplers as well as less narrow in scope threats. Aikido™ as I currently see it-is not. I’ll bet on the grappler-every time.

Don is right in that I am not to be used as an example.

Don will be wrong about Aikido as aiki...do-in years to come-

if I am successful in my own small contribution to the art.



I have been wrong. I see the error in my ways. Godspeed. Aikido really needs someone to restore it, and make it impervious to the threat of grapplers who all are superb fighters over all other MA. I am glad to hear finally the best martial arts are judo, bjj and MMA, and not Aikido ™. And it is Aiki...do is what I am missing. Which you will be teaching all Aikido teachers to do. I will have my instructor contact you. :)

Demetrio Cereijo
09-01-2008, 10:16 AM
I will have my instructor contact you. :)

I thought you were an instructor... ooops, my bad. Sorry.

DH
09-01-2008, 10:40 AM
I appreciate the sentiments in your response Phil. I really do. I balance it- in light of quite a few teachers already pursuing this type of training from 3rd dans to 6th dans, from fifteen years to forty years experience. More than are discussed here on Aikiweb. And that training is from various sources -not just me. Yet they are now training this way. They have a *very* high opinion of these skills. Two very high level teachers called the aiki it expresses "life changing."

When I consider listening to opinions these are the types of opinions I find to be more qualified.
a) due to their years-in and in many cases the breadth of their experiences in those years
b) due to their going out an actually feeling men with these skills and taking part in training it.

What was more telling to me was showing this to a person who actually trained and got their ranks -from- Ueshiba himself.. Who upon feeling what I was doing, and then having me explain it stated:.
This is Ueshiba's AIkido. They don't teach this anymore. It's not in modern Aikido.
When told about the debate on aikiweb- the response was. How would -they- know? Did they train with Ueshiba?

I join their highly qualified experience-which I do not have- with my own experiences outside of the aiki arts in wrestlers/judo, and MMA types for most of my life. So that is balancing view of my own.

Again, oddly enough the men of the first group, once feeling and seeing the power and sensitivity can now understand how their art can truly have the ability to handle men of the second group.

What we have here is a burgeoning movement *within* aikido to change aikido, back to aiki...do, that will empower it once again as a stellar martial art.
So while I appreciate your sentiments, Phil. I have a collection of other much more considerable experiences that I go by-to include people with decades of experience -in-aikido past your own. I find the ability to type and use a computer does not make everyone's opinions...equal.
For what it's worth I have no wish to be negative or judgemental. You make some pretty declarative statements that many here find unsupportable and counter to their experiences. Our opinions have not only been supported with personla expereinces0they have been vetted by some pretty serious seniors in your art.
Its sometimes wise to listen, Phil. I hope we can remain cordial.

Aikibu
09-01-2008, 12:17 PM
Well Well,

Don....

1.Too bad you were "lied" to...Good Luck with your training. As for me I had the exact opposite experiance after years of Judo Karate and other Arts. I still cross train allot but for me it's Aikido

Dan...

I think you took my words out of context I said Our Aikido (not Aikido) is technically good and I looked forward to adding an internal practice to it. I have trained with some internal folks... experianced Aiki "Power" ( Ever practice Ryu Te...Good Bagua...Gung Fu San Soo LOL) There is plenty of Documentation about the technical aspect of our Aikido out there. So I will just make the natural assumption you're completely ignorant of it other than You Tube and decided to lump it in with everything else. Many have made the same mistake. I am not saying our Aikido is better than others Aikido However we practice it being mindful that our practice MUST (not maybe... not perhaps.. not sometimes...) work "against" other Martial Arts in order for us to consider it a Martial Art.

I do partially agree with both you and Don. There is allot of Non Martial Aikido out there...but to dismiss all Aikido as "ineffective" is just plain ignorant

"This is not O'Sensei's" Aikido Well lets address the elephant in the room since you brought it up. According to you Dan You practice 8 hours a day everyday and have for the last 20+ years. I humbly submit this is the ONLY reason you are so far advanced. This was the primary reason O Sensei was so good He lived breathed and slept Aiki everyday.

Simply put it's the man...O'Sensei had a natural talent and he worked on it all day everyday. A True Budoka. Same with you. You put in the work you get the results. According to some that know you had some natural ability at the beginning and you just simply worked as hard as you could to develop it.

O'Sensei is dead. His Aikido is not. You want what he had? Put in the work...You seem to be giving it a shot. Most don't... so...

You got me beat there. I work out at best perhaps 1 to 2 hours everyday and that is evident when I step on the mat. Within seconds of working with someone I know how much time they put in to thier respective practice.

Back to Don...Again You have been saying the same thing for years and now I understand why...You have been lied to Well lets not forget it was a man who lied to you...Not Aikido...Sadly there are allot of Rex-Fu's out there but I submit the same suggestion to you that I have to others. Put in the work...make the changes...Show me the money...

William Hazen

DonMagee
09-01-2008, 01:00 PM
I'd submit that I am out there putting in the work and following what I feel is the right path using the information I have at hand. As I've said, I train as much as possible, I travel when time and money allows and when I do I try to train with as many unique people as I can find.

What is the point of trying to change an art? I will do what I feel is right, and if I ever become a full time instructor I will teach them in the method I feel is right. In the mean time I will keep encouraging everyone to give what I feel is right a try.

Aikibu
09-01-2008, 01:14 PM
I'd submit that I am out there putting in the work and following what I feel is the right path using the information I have at hand. As I've said, I train as much as possible, I travel when time and money allows and when I do I try to train with as many unique people as I can find.

What is the point of trying to change an art? I will do what I feel is right, and if I ever become a full time instructor I will teach them in the method I feel is right. In the mean time I will keep encouraging everyone to give what I feel is right a try.

Thank You Don. You have my respect and admiration. :) I look forward to reading more about your journey of discovery.

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
09-01-2008, 01:48 PM
There is no point in changing the art. Why would you?

The only thing you can do is to form your own opinions, perspective, and methods.

I think that is what most of us in this discussion are doing. Learning to think for ourselves....making it our own.

Don, I agree, I pretty much do and teach what I know, and try and keep open to learn more when someone show me a better way.

I think this is all we can ask of ourselves and others.

Buck
09-01-2008, 05:07 PM
I appreciate the sentiments in your response Phil. I really do. Phil. I hope we can remain cordial.

You made me see the light that Aikido is lacking and you have the missing piece. I can't wait to get started.

I want to see the stuff Aikido is lacking and what will make Aikido work again, all of what I have been missing, like you said. I want to defeat any and all grapplers like you said. I am excited that your willing to re-teach all the Aikido teachers. I can't wait to see your Aiki...do. Like you said, you have what O'Sensei had- you are the only one who has made it to his skill level and you are willing to revolutionize Aikido by putting your Aiki..do into Aikido like you said. I can't wait for it to happen! :)

Kevin Leavitt
09-01-2008, 06:12 PM
What is important is that you are happy with your aikido. If you are, then great, why bother looking elsewhere to improve?

For many of us, we are looking to continue to grow and expand what we know and find new ways to learn and understand.

In order for that to happen, it requires (at least for me) to put ego and preconceptions to the side, and try new things.

Putting ego an preconceptions to the side does not mean that you need to follow blindly. You stay focused on your endstate and test what it is that you are learning against your endstate/criteria.

Anyway, not really sure what your point of continuing to fight, be dismissive, judge what others do with categorical predjudice, and now attack with sarcasm.

You know somedays I go to Ben and Jerry's to get ice cream...other days to Cold Stone Creamery. Just because I go to one doesn't mean I think the other one sucks, I just wanted a different experience or flavor.

I suppose if you live in a black or white world, you don't consider going to but one Ice Cream store for fear that you might not like the ice cream that you have always eaten. That's okay, but unless you have been to the other ice cream store, you really can't say that it sucks and have people believe you.

However, I suppose if you were trying to convince yourself to stay at that ice cream store you might go around bashing the other one...to validate and convince yourself that you already have the best one.

However, It is hard for me to understand that logic as it is not one that I tend to follow.

Apparently some people do!

Aikibu
09-01-2008, 06:22 PM
One of the great benefits of Budo is humility...One of the great banes of the Web is arrogance...

Both are on display in this thread....

I wonder which one is more important?

William Hazen

Buck
09-01-2008, 06:41 PM
What is important is that you are happy with your aikido. If you are, then great, why bother looking elsewhere to improve?

For many of us, we are looking to continue to grow and expand what we know and find new ways to learn and understand.

In order for that to happen, it requires (at least for me) to put ego and preconceptions to the side, and try new things.

Putting ego an preconceptions to the side does not mean that you need to follow blindly. You stay focused on your endstate and test what it is that you are learning against your endstate/criteria.

Anyway, not really sure what your point of continuing to fight, be dismissive, judge what others do with categorical predjudice, and now attack with sarcasm.

You know somedays I go to Ben and Jerry's to get ice cream...other days to Cold Stone Creamery. Just because I go to one doesn't mean I think the other one sucks, I just wanted a different experience or flavor.

I suppose if you live in a black or white world, you don't consider going to but one Ice Cream store for fear that you might not like the ice cream that you have always eaten. That's okay, but unless you have been to the other ice cream store, you really can't say that it sucks and have people believe you.

However, I suppose if you were trying to convince yourself to stay at that ice cream store you might go around bashing the other one...to validate and convince yourself that you already have the best one.

However, It is hard for me to understand that logic as it is not one that I tend to follow.

Apparently some people do!

But Kevin, I got people telling me Aikido sucks and they have the answer to fix it. I got people telling me Aikido is ineffective and incomplete and fake and I should try other art and my training is poor in comparison, and I am following blindly without questioning and all these holes in Aikido.......etc. Well, then my answer is show me. Put the money where the mouth is, Cowboy up, show me the money.... I sheath my sword and yield the floor, let's get'r done. Stop the chit chat and show us your hand. I call. :)

Kevin Leavitt
09-01-2008, 07:10 PM
Phil, I am with you on that one. I believe if you wade through aikiweb over the past couple of years you will see that I have stated almost the same thing. That is, "show me".

In fact, that is how I got involved in MMA/BJJ. I was "teaching" Aikido to a few fellow Officers in my battalion and one of my NCOs was doing some ground stuff. We debated over weeks, and finally it boiled down to "show me".

I had the same discussions, many of them very animated with Dan and Mike. It boiled down to "show me". Haven't met with Dan yet, however did with Mike and Ark/Rob John and they "showed me".

The showed me within the context of what they promised to teach, and I learned a great deal in a short amount of time. Having Mike Sigman use a fraction of his power and essentially blow through you with a palm placed on the chest. Me striking Ark with overhand blows in the chest as hard as I could over and over.

Not only that, but then they proceed to spend the weekend showing you how to begin to do those things. Training methods, many of which I had done in aikido, but either it was never explained "why" or it was done incorrectly.

Having BJJ guys show you how to correctly use your hips and develop your core power, to adjust your timing and movements to make efficient use of the "energy" in the "alive" situation. AND have you doing it within a few short months...proficiently.

THEN, bring these lessons BACK into your aikido (tm) training, things that you did not learn (or failed to to be fair) in the past 12 years and be able to see measurable improvement in the Aikido dojo.

Working with your fellow dojo mates who have chosen the same or a similar path, watching each other's aiki get better and better....

It sort of gets you thinking when you experience all of this.

It puts the things that Dan Harden says that really do grate you the wrong way in a different light. It makes you wonder if indeed maybe he is not so far off base after all...regardless of how you might feel about his demeanor or directness.

Show you the money?

I am always happy to get with ANYONE on ANY DAY and work with them on whatever they want to work on. Not that I am remotely even good at any of this aiki stuff. However, If your "aiki" won't work on me, then you really should reconsider who you are spending your time training with, as I am a rote amateur when it comes down to all this stuff.

Phil, not sure where you are located, but if you are within a drive of the DC area you should come on down to train with us some time.

It ain't about "beating grappler" are "fighting" but about training perspectives. I love to train with "aliveness" and I am always happy to work with anyone!

Jim Sorrentino
09-01-2008, 07:21 PM
Hi Dan, What was more telling to me was showing this to a person who actually trained and got their ranks -from- Ueshiba himself.. Who upon feeling what I was doing, and then having me explain it stated:.
This is Ueshiba's AIkido. They don't teach this anymore. It's not in modern Aikido.
When told about the debate on aikiweb- the response was. How would -they- know? Did they train with Ueshiba? Unless you're willing to identify this person, it is simply not helpful to bring up his (or her?) aikido experience and rank. The fact is that there are still many people alive who attended classes at Hombu or Iwama in which O-Sensei was present, either as the primary instructor, or because he "happened" to walk in on the class when another instructor was teaching. Some of these people received several of their dan rankings during O-Sensei's lifetime, but I am quite certain that not all of them, perhaps relatively few of them, would claim that their primary teacher was O-Sensei. Thus, if you are going to use the allegedly authoritative experience of this person to support your argument that what you are doing is O-Sensei's aikido, you must share with us some additional information about this person, and his or her aikido experience, if you expect us to take this argument seriously.

You yourself have, on many occasions, declined to provide details of your martial arts "resume" on the grounds that your skills, and other people's experiences of your skills, speak for themselves. If I remember correctly, you state that it is sufficient for your arguments that "your understanding is in your hands." If you believe that is so, then it is inconsistent for you to argue from authority, especially anonymous authority. If you wish to quote the experience of a "highly qualified" individual to support your arguments, then you ought to provide the evidence of the person's qualifications - otherwise, you should not cite it. I wager that you would lose credit with Professor Goldsbury (and others whose opinions you value) if you were to use an argument from anonymous authority with him - please treat us with similar respect.

Sincerely,

Jim

Aikibu
09-01-2008, 09:12 PM
I second that motion Jim....

It can't be Abe Shihan...His "Aiki" has already been discounted by Dan and his students.

William Hazen

DonMagee
09-01-2008, 09:33 PM
I am also perfectly happy to train with anyone in my area (Northern Indiana/southern michigan). I can obtain mat time at a few different locations for any purpose. I am not skilled in weapons, but I am willing to work on grappling, striking, aiki, or just general friendly sparing with whatever ruleset is applicable.

The big difference though is that I have experienced what I'm claiming, where as from what I've read from you Phil is that you have not gone out and experienced bjj or mma first hand. I am by no means an authority on everything aikido, bjj, judo, or mma. But I have experienced both sides, and that I believe qualifies me to comment.

So get out there! Try one, or find one of us and lets work out!

Buck
09-01-2008, 10:11 PM
I think then the issue here is that Dan did advertise that he has what O'Sensei had, implying he was the only one, and he is willing to teach all Aikido teachers. And that what he teaches will have an Aikidokas defeating grapplers. And he can put the Aiki back in Aikido. All that is the pitch. Now the next step is that needs to be seen. And it looks like what Dan isn't the only one on the block selling the same turn-key operation. It looks as if you, Kevin and Don your both are saying you can do the same thing, a bit of competition. I want to see the goods in action before I buy into it. It is foolish to buy in blindly, I giving it a fair change for it to happen. Let's see it. Am being fair because it was the same approach I took with Aikido for the first time, and everything else in my life. Please don't be offended. :)

Kevin Leavitt
09-01-2008, 10:42 PM
Dan's a big boy and I am not going to get into this one. He says alot of things, some I agree with, some I don't, some I have no experience or opinion about. He can defend himself on all this. Never having met the man, I couldn't say one way or the other.

Based on what others have said, that I have met and trained with, that have trained with Dan, I have no doubt he has something to contribute to us. I look forward to working with him if and when I get the chance.

No, I am not saying the same thing necessarily that Dan is saying. I don't profess to be able to put the aiki back in aikido, never said anything about that. I have enough trouble trying to get it in me!

No, all Don and I are saying is if you want someone to put up or shut up, we are more than happy to "put up". that is all. What little I do know about aikido and martial effectiveness, I am willing to get on the mat with you or anyone else and go at it. (within reason, of course).

Not sure what you mean by "I want to see the goods in action before I buy into it". What do you mean by that?

All we are saying is Define the parameters upon which you wish to measure things. Since the conversation deals with grappling, multiple opponents and how well a pure aikidoka, using so-called aikido skills would do in that situation....I say, fine, lets set up that situation and test it as such. You do what you want to do, and i will do what I want to do and we can see who's way seems to work better.

That is all that is being said.

If you want to work something like a Jo Test...lets do that to! I love to get on the end of a pole and have someone push me around.

For me it isn't about proving who is right or wrong, only getting together and figuring out different, innovative, or better ways to do things. Either I show you somethings, you show me somethings, or we both realize that we are both jacked up.

Grappling (defined as groundfighting) is only a small subset or component of the spectrum of fighting. An important one, that people dismiss way too easily for whatever reason. It is not the only range of fighting either. To be honest, I spend a fair amount of time teaching people how to avoid groundfighting and what to watch for when fighting a possible groundfighter.

Phil, you are really missing the point and drawing some illogical inferences from the information that is being presented.

I am not offended in the least. Just don't see how you form the opinions and inferences you do on certain things.

Kevin Leavitt
09-01-2008, 10:54 PM
ah what the hell Phil, you can watch me get my ass kicked 10-0 in the European BJJ Championships, Absolute, Purple Belt Division in Lisbon in January. Just want to make sure you get to see the "goods in action". :) My match is at 1:42. The video was heavily edited by the guy that is self promoting himself (Jean Paul "Geeza" Grodin). He is an excellent fighter, I don't feel bad I lost to such a strong opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGe2lXQGZZw

Note how hard it was for me to get away from the guy when I pretty much dominated the top end of the fight. Trust me, if I could have gotten free, I would have.

DH
09-01-2008, 11:30 PM
Well Well,
Dan...
I think you took my words out of context I said Our Aikido (not Aikido) is technically good and I looked forward to adding an internal practice to it. I have trained with some internal folks... experianced Aiki "Power" ( Ever practice Ryu Te...Good Bagua...Gung Fu San Soo LOL) There is plenty of Documentation about the technical aspect of our Aikido out there. So I will just make the natural assumption you're completely ignorant of it other than You Tube and decided to lump it in with everything else.....
....I do partially agree with both you and Don. There is allot of Non Martial Aikido out there...but to dismiss all Aikido as "ineffective" is just plain ignorant
William Hazen

Hi William
This is what I said
1. Anyone asks me the best martial training to do? Aikido or Daito ryu? I tell them to go do judo, BJJ or MMA.

2. Anyone asks me what the finest skill in the world is? I tell them internal power / aiki.

What William and most others misunderstand is nowhere in that equation would I EVER.... E-V-E-R recommend training in Aikido™ to attain those goals.

Not under any single person I have ever met, or know or have heard of. I most certainly do NOT agree with Wiliam that technically (Aikido™) is pretty darn good to begin with. In fact I think Aikido suffers serious technical flaws and even foundational errors in its approach to training a "martial" method to anyone.

As I stated I was arguing both sides
In an ironic twist- I said this in the same post.
And were someone to ever, hopefully, finally, please God someday........express a real understanding of my views- they would see I am advocating both sides!!!
Not one....
Not the other....
Both
I was saying I have never seen it in those I had felt or had heard of, even some who keep telling me to meet this or that guy-who winds up having a small fraction of what they were supposed to have-aiki, and doesnlt train to use it with power in a more MMA environment. I'm optimistic that sooner or later I might find one of you with a really connected body and power and who do or have trained MMA...I just haven't yet.
You want to name some aikido teachers who you are sure have something that's going to impress me in both venues? I'm all ears and will look forward to meeting them-and seeing if their students have it too.

What's more I will share what I know and try to get them to share their teaching methods. If you notice-I, we, they, point to others in all types of arts including Internal Chinese arts. It really can't be about individuals, it has to be about "it" and various places we can go to get it and learn it and place it back in the arts.

Training time to start to get it
"This is not O'Sensei's" Aikido Well lets address the elephant in the room since you brought it up. According to you Dan You practice 8 hours a day everyday and have for the last 20+ years. I humbly submit this is the ONLY reason you are so far advanced. This was the primary reason O Sensei was so good He lived breathed and slept Aiki everyday.

Simply put it's the man...O'Sensei had a natural talent and he worked on it all day everyday. A True Budoka. Same with you. You put in the work you get the results. According to some that know you-you had some natural ability at the beginning and you just simply worked as hard as you could to develop it.

You got me beat there. I work out at best perhaps 1 to 2 hours everyday and that is evident when I step on the mat. Within seconds of working with someone I know how much time they put in to thier respective practice.

As far as the time-in to get it. I think citing eight hour a day training regimens puts people off. We train that way twice a week. the rest is our personal time training at home. I probably only train an hour a day, some days two or three with my son. I don't ever train eight hours a day-as in every day!!!
The good news is knowing that -getting it- doesn't require that much time. Further, anyone *can* get it -to various degrees- training twice a week in a dojo with work at home.You just need to know the right things to train. As has been stated here I have plenty of folks- who are evidence of that. I think someone should ask Mike or Ark what there personal regimens were are various stages, and then their students success at getting it.

Perhaps the most important message being missed is that there are hundreds training and gaining these skills without being superhuman or unusual in any way.

Live training
The second part of the equation is who chooses to train in a live environment. Nothing is going to prepare someone for grappling as well as grappling can. There is simply no argument worth the having here. If you don't fight or haven't fought-you're just kidding yourself about your preparedness. That's a choice you make and you go train. If you put in the work-you get results in more normal time frames. Its never about being as good as this or that person, its about being a better you.

Experiences
Providing anecdotal evidence is never the best we can hope for. I grant you that, but it is all I am willing to provide until people want to come forward. Were I presenting a paper or making a case I would certainly use a different method. Howver, we are discussing a topic that isn't empirical yet and can only be vetted person by person. Some come forward on their own, some have written in here others are not willing to do so. Just now I am thinking of the words of a teacher with 40 yrs in aikido calling this training "Life changing" and being what he has been searching for his entire career. It is worth mentioning as it addresses -once again- the validity of the method, not the individual but the method that, many are advocating.
While that may not satisfy you, or Jim, it continues to provide further impetus to have folks go out and test the type of training I am advocating -and try it.
How I do know?
Folks continue to have enough trust and faith in what many voices (who do not even know each other) have written and reported -to want to pursue training it themselves. There is a sense of credibility and trust in what we are collectively saying. At any rate, in the end, it continues to be beneficial to people going out and looking for those to train with, and making further discoveries.
Some people trust in what they are reading, then make contacts to go out to train and make judgements of their own. .
Others doubt it or don't consider it evidence of any sort for them to consider this. That's fine by me as well. The rest of us will just continue training.

rob_liberti
09-02-2008, 05:46 AM
The first question was: Is Dan a nut who has no skills what-so-ever? The fact remains - no one has met Dan and said "that guy is fake". No one. People we all know here on aikiweb - like I believe that even Ron Tisdale went to visit him. He is not a liar.

The question is now - is what Dan has SO GREAT that that it can defeat MMA to the point that it must be the same skillset that O sensei used in his martial application.

Well, first clue to that puzzle is that Dan's place is a MMA place powered by aiki. Second clue, Dan learned from the same line of people who taught O sensei. Third clue - everyone and I mean everyone who has any idea of what Osensei could do from personal account to what his writings must have meant - that has met Dan all agree that what is being practiced there MUST be what Osensei was doing. You put it together...

Then you look at the people who have been arguing with Dan the most recently. One guy stated 45 years of training. I looked at his web site and it says over 30 years of martial arts. I considered that his web site hasn't been updated in the last 15 years (until I thought about the fact that 15 years ago was 1993 when the internet was not like it is today!). Don't be on THAT side of the arguments. Really, it's just not a good place to be.

Haven't we wasted enough time? Can we start from a cautiously optimistic place that Dan _probably_ has something incredible to offer and just get him to spend his time on aikiweb giving us useful advice about dealing with grappling or whatever else is helpful (you know the entire point of aikiweb - as opposed to the place for arguing silly and unhelpful things).

Rob

Buck
09-02-2008, 07:06 AM
Thanks Kevin for the clip. That was very helpful. I don't have time right now to really discuss your performance. But again thanks that was important to see. :)

Rob,

Testimonials, clues, guessing etc. are good to get attention and wanting a peak at it, but isn't a good subsitute for not seeing it. Often things heard aren't what they seem, it is natural to see what it is, will I be impressed or disappointed, who knows until I see it. Really, we are in the modern age of communication, now it isn't difficult to get a sample is it? If some is going to go out there and say what has been said with great confidence you just gotta see it. Your curiosity is up and interest is up, and now Dan has my attention, now I gotta see it. We are past talk, aren't we? Stop the teasing. :)

rob_liberti
09-02-2008, 09:03 AM
I sincerely doubt that seeing it will help. Go feel it the first moment you can. There are many seminars that Mike and Aukuzawa are doing. There are places that train this way now.

My point here is that until then, instead of endless debates. Try assuming there is probably something important here and lets focus on what we can get out discussions with Dan, Mike, and Rob J.

For instance, wouldn't it be more productive to ask Dan what he suggests people like you do in the mean time if you are interested in ever eventually using your aikido against grappling?

Rob

Aikibu
09-02-2008, 11:27 AM
Please Rob and Dan,

I have never doubted Dan's ability...

And to answer both Dan and you in short.

This is the Aikiweb... and yes Dan you are presenting a paper...There are some of us who will never get to experience what you have to offer personally, or through some of your students. We can only go by what you present here. Given the number of modern media tools available I just don't understand your "reasons" considering the amount of energy you put into advocating your methods and how simple you state this practice is to learn. Let's just take a look at your "peers"

Mike Sigman-Online with vids
Ark- Online with vids
Obata Sensei-Online with vids
Kondo Shihan-Online with vids
Mark Murray!!! :) Online with vids

There are dozens and dozens of others.

Like I said you spend allot of time and energy advocating "it" here... but respectfully... You marginalize those out there who don't have any "first hand experience" and may never experiance it. Not only that but I personally have spent way too much time in this beautiful life refuting arguments about how Aikido is worthless to one degree or another.. When I know dozens if not hundreds or thousands who have found Aikido as they practice it very effective.

If you found another way to discuss your concerns without denigrating Yudansha who do not practice the way you do, and backed it up with helpful 'presentations" (something to his credit Mark Murray has tried to do)
We could get on with living beautiful lives and stop wasting them as blind men advocating our part of the elephant. With all the tools available that conundrum is easily solved.

Let's see what you're talking about.:)

William Hazen

Michael Douglas
09-02-2008, 11:57 AM
Mike Sigman-Online with vids
Ark- Online with vids
Obata Sensei-Online with vids
Kondo Shihan-Online with vids
Mark Murray!!! :) Online with vids

I was expecting at least a couple of links William! :)
Please? (Seen lots of Ark ones already)

rob_liberti
09-02-2008, 12:04 PM
I kind of really want more people to discsuss aikido defending against grappling so I created a thread dedicated to the goal of convincing Dan to change his mind about putting himself on video:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15053

Thanks,
Rob

Michael Douglas
09-02-2008, 04:10 PM
I kind of really want more people to discsuss aikido defending against grappling ...
Oh yeah, the last few pages made me forget what I really wanted to comment on in this thread.
So, back on-topic ;
Since most(all?) of the 'original' aikidoka were experts at judo/jiu jitsu before studying aikido, the ground-grappling question becomes rather pointless ... they would excel at dealing with grappling standing or on the ground using their own expertise honed through both jiu jitsu and aikido training.
The question only becomes worth discussing if we get aikidoka who were not already jiu jitsu experts before studying aikido ... and are such students a valid representation of the art? (a question, not rhetorical) :confused:

MM
09-02-2008, 04:50 PM
Oh yeah, the last few pages made me forget what I really wanted to comment on in this thread.
So, back on-topic ;
Since most(all?) of the 'original' aikidoka were experts at judo/jiu jitsu before studying aikido, the ground-grappling question becomes rather pointless ... they would excel at dealing with grappling standing or on the ground using their own expertise honed through both jiu jitsu and aikido training.
The question only becomes worth discussing if we get aikidoka who were not already jiu jitsu experts before studying aikido ... and are such students a valid representation of the art? (a question, not rhetorical) :confused:

I think you'd have to post historical data to actually back that claim up. Ueshiba studied a bit of other martial arts before meeting Takeda but that didn't do him any good with Takeda. At all.

Shioda handled other martial artists with ease.

Tomiki may have been ranked in Judo but couldn't best Ueshiba.

Ueshiba handled Tenryu with ease and Ueshiba didn't have a sumo background.

In fact, there are lots of evidence out there for some of the big names in Aikido handling other martial artists where they had no background.

So, the argument that some may have been experts at jujutsu before aikido doesn't really hold any water. They also had no expertise in other arts, yet fared just as well against them. So much so for Ueshiba, that high ranking martial artists came to him.

It wasn't the jujutsu background that gave them their skill. It was the Daito ryu aiki passed down to Ueshiba and then to some of his students.

Kevin Leavitt
09-02-2008, 05:21 PM
Michael Douglas wrote:

Since most(all?) of the 'original' aikidoka were experts at judo/jiu jitsu before studying aikido, the ground-grappling question becomes rather pointless ... they would excel at dealing with grappling standing or on the ground using their own expertise honed through both jiu jitsu and aikido training.


I am no historical expert of what they did and didn't. I would be inclined to say that many did have this background and it would have had to count for something.

Although I would also have to agree with Mark. I have so very good aikido instructors/sensei that have no grappling background and do very respectable tactically at what they do. So don't think it is always necessary.

That said, it is a range of combat. It is one that we tend to not focus on in aikido. That range of combat allows for a certain degree of aliveness to occur with a great deal of connectedness between two individuals. It has been most helpful for many of us in the process.

My personal experiences have been very favorable to this range of skills in improving my "mid range" skills concentrated on in aikido. I think, as many other do, that incorporating this range into the mix more is positive to aikido, not negative. that is, it does not take away from the study.

Anyway, I suppose there are many ways to study. These are just my opinions and observations.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-02-2008, 06:55 PM
I think you'd have to post historical data to actually back that claim up.
Let's see...

Shioda handled other martial artists with ease.
"On May 23, 1932, the 17-year-old Gozo appeared at the Ueshiba dojo to witness a demonstration. Having had a strong background in both kendo and judo, the confident young Shioda was skeptical of the clean, controlled techniques he saw performed. Sensing the lad's unimpressed attitude, Ueshiba then invited him to attack and, in the blink of an eye, the young man found himself on his back rubbing his head after an unsuccessful kick attempt."
Morihei Ueshiba and Gozo Shioda by Stanley Pranin (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=71)

Tomiki may have been ranked in Judo but couldn't best Ueshiba.
"He (Tomiki) was a Shodan (first degree black-belt) when he entered Waseda University but, because of his outstanding performances, he was promoted each year and was a Yondan (4th degree black belt), by the time he graduated from Waseda. In 1926, while still a student at Waseda, he was introduced to Master Morihei Ueshiba, who was famous for his Aiki-bujutsu. "
Tomiki Aikido History, by Yoji Kondo (biography by Fumiaki Shishida) (http://www.fullcircleaikido.com/archive.htm)

Ueshiba handled Tenryu with ease and Ueshiba didn't have a sumo background.
"Around the age of seven Morihei was sent to Jizodera, a nearby Buddhist temple of the Shingon sect, to study the Confucian classics and Buddhist scriptures. He was enthralled by the miracle tales told of the Buddhist saint Kobo Daishi, and he began to experience recurring dreams, a tendency that caused his father some concern. Yoroku therefore encouraged him in more physical pursuits, and taught him sumo and swimming."
The Life of Morihei Ueshiba (by Kisshomaru Ueshiba), Budo - Teachings of the Founder of Aikido. Kodansha Int. ISBN 4-7700-2070-8

It wasn't the jujutsu background that gave them their skill. It was the Daito ryu aiki passed down to Ueshiba and then to some of his students.

Sure, but data available shows the people you cited had previous experience in martial arts. Even if it was not relevant to the skills they developed under O Sensei, they had it, like most of people who attended school in Japan at that time.

"Several factors combined to keep the arts alive through this period. The Dai Nippon Butokukai was organized in 1895 and in 1911 formed a specialty school which hired many of the budo experts of that generation. In the same year Kendo and Judo were introduced into the middle schools as compulsory exercise. This resulted in the budo being taught to the general public which allowed some of the old teachers to make a new living."
THE IAIDO NEWSLETTER Volume 2 number 4 absolute #6 Sept 1990 (http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/06TIN90.htm)

Aikibu
09-02-2008, 07:03 PM
Game Set Match....:)

William Hazen

DonMagee
09-02-2008, 09:17 PM
Let's see...

I could actually see this being a factor. Why bother teaching them the things they already knew. They knew the value of 'aliveness', they had the background in those areas already. Now teach them these new things and let them learn how to make it part of them. The question is, how much of gaining that skill was the person, the person's background in previous arts, or in Ueshiba's training methods. And if the last was the greatest part, how close are his training methods to what is taught today.

The question is? Are you learning in the same way the first generation learned?

Kevin Leavitt
09-02-2008, 10:14 PM
you know...it makes sense to me! I don't know how you can really grasp an understanding of it without the aliveness aspect, or at least learning from someone who has a good foundation in it.

MM
09-03-2008, 07:05 AM
I could actually see this being a factor. Why bother teaching them the things they already knew. They knew the value of 'aliveness', they had the background in those areas already. Now teach them these new things and let them learn how to make it part of them. The question is, how much of gaining that skill was the person, the person's background in previous arts, or in Ueshiba's training methods. And if the last was the greatest part, how close are his training methods to what is taught today.

The question is? Are you learning in the same way the first generation learned?

Consider this, Don. If what some of the people here have postulated about having a jujutsu background is true, then why did Takeda decimate Ueshiba on their first meeting? And then, after training with Takeda, why did Ueshiba decimate Tomiki on their first meeting? After all, both Ueshiba and Tomiki had "solid" backgrounds in jujutsu of some sort. Shioda had, as has been posted, a background in Judo and Kendo. He didn't stand a chance against Ueshiba. Now, if backgrounds count for something, why is it that *all* these people (who had jujutsu/judo/kendo backgrounds) came upon someone trained in Daito ryu (seriously, not just the thousands that attended Takeda's seminars), that these people didn't stand a chance at all. They got manhandled completely.

And to drive the point home even more ... once these people started learning Daito ryu, they started manhandling everyone else. And now, people are saying, well, the background in jujutsu helped? Quite a few of these people had extensive backgrounds in jujutsu/judo/kendo before meeting anyone with a serious Daito ryu background. It certainly didn't help them then, why in the world would someone think it would help them after?

It wasn't Ueshiba's training methods, per se. It came from Takeda. And before that ... well, no one is really sure. Although Ellis might have some historical stuff in his next book. We'll just have to wait and see.

As I've been posting in other threads, Ueshiba's training methods are not what are taught today. And, no, I don't believe that we are learning the way the first generation learned. If we were, there would be more greats of Aikido out there.