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Demetrio Cereijo
09-03-2008, 07:16 AM
I think those first generation students had something to build upon.

Think about training today internals to two different groups of people: Group one: high school and collegiate wrestlers. Group two: unathletic geeks and nerds.

How do you see it?

Mato-san
09-03-2008, 07:21 AM
What is important is that you are happy with your aikido. If you are, then great, why bother looking elsewhere to improve?

For many of us, we are looking to continue to grow and expand what we know and find new ways to learn and understand.

In order for that to happen, it requires (at least for me) to put ego and preconceptions to the side, and try new things.

Putting ego an preconceptions to the side does not mean that you need to follow blindly. You stay focused on your endstate and test what it is that you are learning against your endstate/criteria.

Anyway, not really sure what your point of continuing to fight, be dismissive, judge what others do with categorical predjudice, and now attack with sarcasm.

You know somedays I go to Ben and Jerry's to get ice cream...other days to Cold Stone Creamery. Just because I go to one doesn't mean I think the other one sucks, I just wanted a different experience or flavor.

I suppose if you live in a black or white world, you don't consider going to but one Ice Cream store for fear that you might not like the ice cream that you have always eaten. That's okay, but unless you have been to the other ice cream store, you really can't say that it sucks and have people believe you.

However, I suppose if you were trying to convince yourself to stay at that ice cream store you might go around bashing the other one...to validate and convince yourself that you already have the best one.

However, It is hard for me to understand that logic as it is not one that I tend to follow.

Apparently some people do!

Kevin you are a wordsmith, share an icecream with you any day of the week. You choose the store.

MM
09-03-2008, 07:45 AM
I think those first generation students had something to build upon.

Think about training today internals to two different groups of people: Group one: high school and collegiate wrestlers. Group two: unathletic geeks and nerds.

How do you see it?

Considering that I have a background in martial arts and I know someone who didn't and we both train internals -- and he's doing better than I am right now -- well, uh, I'd say that the background really didn't matter. :)

As people have said before -- this training rewires the body in a different manner than what people normally use. If you do the training/solo work/exercises, you will get better. Anyone. I've seen people with various body types and backgrounds training it and getting it, to not believe that.

Mato-san
09-03-2008, 08:35 AM
this training rewires the body in a different manner than what people normally use.

So true, you won`t catch a nerd or a wrestler that handles his Biz like an Aikido practitioner, not just Biz, but life in general.

rob_liberti
09-03-2008, 09:18 AM
how close are his training methods to what is taught today.

I bet all of my life-energy that is not dedicated to family and work that in some circles it's pretty close.

Are you learning in the same way the first generation learned?

I bet all of my life-energy that is not dedicated to family and work that in some circles it's BETTER.

:)
Rob

Michael Douglas
09-03-2008, 09:32 AM
...Do you think that one can defend (him/her)self from a grappler with Aikido techniques, on the ground? I don't mean the "a successful Aikidoka wouldn't go to the ground in the first place". Let's pretend that you fell to the ground.
Just to remind everyone of the OP's question which has nothing to do with Takeda beating Ueshiba beating Tenryu etc etc, or what overall training is best for standing challenges.

My point is still that all the original aikido students were expert ground-grapplers already and therefore the above question is irrelevant to THEM, and only becomes interesting when we consider non-ground-grapplers schooled in aikido who might therefore try to use 'only' aikido techniques on the ground ... a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-03-2008, 10:33 AM
As people have said before -- this training rewires the body in a different manner than what people normally use. If you do the training/solo work/exercises, you will get better. Anyone. I've seen people with various body types and backgrounds training it and getting it, to not believe that.

Internals are a big part (maybe the biggest) of the equation, but in my surely wrong opinion, I'd put my money in the collegiate wrestler and not in the pencil neck (both trained in the real internals) if they have to defend themselves against a trained fighter.

Flintstone
09-03-2008, 10:36 AM
I'd put my money in the collegiate wrestler and not in the pencil neck (both trained in the real internals) if they have to defend themselves against a trained fighter.
So would I.

MM
09-03-2008, 11:15 AM
Internals are a big part (maybe the biggest) of the equation, but in my surely wrong opinion, I'd put my money in the collegiate wrestler and not in the pencil neck (both trained in the real internals) if they have to defend themselves against a trained fighter.

I didn't mean to imply that what one studies for tactics and strategy isn't worth it. If they're both the same in internals, then the wrestler has the advantage, for the most part. Or if you have a background in jujutsu, that doesn't mean you'll fare well against someone who doesn't have that same background. I look at it like the style (jujutsu, aikido, kendo, etc) is the tactics and the school (koryu jujutsu, Shodokan, Yoshinkan, etc) is the strategy.

The better your tactics are and the better you can employ them, then the better you are. But, as has been seen from history, tactics sometimes only get you so far. As has been postulated here, Ueshiba had training in judo, sword, and sumo. But, that got him exactly nowhere with Takeda. Was it really because Takeda was a better tactician? Takeda's jujutsu, sword, and sumo training had so much better techniques?

DH
09-03-2008, 12:04 PM
So would I.

So would I
How does that relate to the topic?
What Mark was pointing out is stated quotes and notations of where experiecned grapplers have met up with men with real aiki.
the Kodokan has listed experiences in the the book "The fighting spririt of Japan" with 6th dan Judoka training these methods, and one fellow as a gift being introduced to whom? An aikijujutsu teacher who blew him away.
I was just rereading Hisa's comments that the asahi dojo was filled with go dan Judoka who had trained with Ueshiba for three years and were getting bored. Then....
They met Takeda, they were stunned and amazed at the difference between Ueshiba's beautiful waza, and the "incomparebly rougher and more effecitve aiki of Takeda"
How was it that there "jujutsu" left them so inept?

Then we had Ueshba with his Yagyu shingen crying in the corner.
Shall we explore the thousands...I'll say it again...thousands...of VERY experienced budo men who found Takeda unstoppable and decided to train with him?

What Happened to Ueshiba, he went on to train with Takeda for 20 years. Stated that "Takeda opened his eyes to true Budo" And Ueshiba went on to become and unstoppable force himself, who used to show up at the kodokan to play, and dislocated the hip of one guy.
So there are men with aiki power all playing with experienced Japanese grapplers, in the heyday of Japanese jujutsu / Judo.

The flaw in the argument is not aiki, not aiki...do, as it was known and practiced then. The flaw is in grapplers making comparisons to Aikido™ as it is most commonly practiced today.

Demetrio Cereijo
09-03-2008, 07:27 PM
Takeda's jujutsu, sword, and sumo training had so much better techniques?

Mark, I think we agree on Takeda's aiki skill as the "mojo" that made him unstoppable. But let me remain a bit skeptic about aiki developement as the only tool you need to face succesfully real physical encounters.

If you are trying to say that a guy who is a "tabula rasa" about martial techniques, tactics and strategies (and psychological aspects of combat) can deliver masakatsu agatsu katsu hayabi when faced with a trained opponent with only his rewired body I'm not going to contradict you, but until a see him (or feel him) doing it allow me to not to take a leap of faith XXXL size.

MM
09-03-2008, 08:23 PM
Mark, I think we agree on Takeda's aiki skill as the "mojo" that made him unstoppable. But let me remain a bit skeptic about aiki developement as the only tool you need to face succesfully real physical encounters.

If you are trying to say that a guy who is a "tabula rasa" about martial techniques, tactics and strategies (and psychological aspects of combat) can deliver masakatsu agatsu katsu hayabi when faced with a trained opponent with only his rewired body I'm not going to contradict you, but until a see him (or feel him) doing it allow me to not to take a leap of faith XXXL size.

Demetrio,
I think we're probably saying the same thing, in our own way. :) Your post cleared up some things for me. I think we probably agree more than we disagree.

Flintstone
09-04-2008, 04:34 AM
So would I
How does that relate to the topic?
How does it relate? Demetrio put it very clearly in words. Thanks for your patience.

salim
09-04-2008, 08:07 AM
Check out this video of Aiki/grappling techniques. Excellent demonstration.

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/video/the_art_of_the_wristlock

rob_liberti
09-04-2008, 06:07 PM
I think he is doing very excellent work but I don't think it fits my current understanding of aiki.

Kevin Leavitt
09-04-2008, 08:45 PM
Rob, can you explain why you feel that way?

I agree with you based on our definition of internal training.

However, I think Roy brings an interesting an relevant perspective to aikido dealing with aliveness that is necessary.

Aiki is a particular concept.

Aikido, however, requires I think several elements to be really considered a martial art.

1. A framework or Waza.
2. Practiced with Aliveness.
3. Incorporates the concepts of Aiki.

Synergizing and putting this all together is key to what I personally want to do.

Your thoughts on why you don't consider this aiki based on the video would be very helpful.

raul rodrigo
09-04-2008, 09:28 PM
I think the Roy Dean video is excellent jujitsu, but aiki is (in my thinking) something different. It's shutting down the opponents power at the instant of contact, so that he's suddenly "floating" or else he feels nailed to the floor. This is the result of internal power. Dean does jujitsu well, but aiki is a different approach.

best,

R

Kevin Leavitt
09-04-2008, 10:12 PM
....and we have no video footage or example of anyone doing this in a grappling situation?

Exception "might" be Rob John...but, even Rob will admit this is a challenge for him, but they are working on it.

I would really like to see an example of someone "shutting down an opponents power at instant contact, and/or a case where "nailing to the floor" actually happens.

Not to pick on you Raul, you just kindly gave your definition (sorry), I am just trying to understand this from a applied application standpoint, which I have yet to be able to do, or find someone that can.

I am open minded and "working on it", and I get the whole floating and nailing thing....heck I was working on it tonight.

Lots of arm chair quarterbacking on this topic, but no one has demonstrated it proficiently in a grappling situation.

Jiujitsu guys of Roy's caliber understand quite a bit about the use of core and the relationship of it to anothers body, how to establish kuzushi, spinal alignment, extension, posture, efficient use of movement.

I have gotten into this debate over the years with Dan. So, I understand that many say that this stuff is "not aiki".

I accept that.

For once I'd like to stop seeing commentary from people that say "well that is good jiujitsu...but it is not aiki"

then purport that aiki is useful in grappling, but yet no demo or video is ever provided that shows a clear distinction between what world class grapplers are doing daily and what all us aiki minions out there are doing.

Convince me, someone please!

I am doing many of the exercises that Ark and Mike showed me, frankly, I am finding them very helpful in developing my game and forming the body connections etc.

Those that have worked with me know that I am not out to disprove that is does not work...actually I think there is application (I hope), yet I can't do it, and I have had know one demonstrate out side of very controlled set of parameters upon which principles (very good ones might I add) were being taught.

I hope I am being clear. My post is not a debate about the relevancy or legitmacy of internal training methodolgy, as I got it and find it very useful.

My questions and concerns center the application of all this "floating" and "nailing" stuff and where it fits into the "martial", as a separate and definable skill set that is unique from what we see in highly skilled judoka, grapplers, and others.

We have plenty of video footage of people "not doing it", and a few videos of guys that are doing it as "waza". None that I have seen what I would call a "Aliveness Randori" situation that is commonly seen in BJJ, Judo, Sambo, and/or Greco Roman.

Stop asking Dan, he has already said his peace on this subject.

rob_liberti
09-04-2008, 10:19 PM
Kevin,

In terms of aiki, my opinion is that I would expect to see his trunk moving and not his hips moving so much. The way he moves with his partner shows slack in his body that is not consistent with what you typically see when someone has aiki. It is extremely clear during one of the tsuki kotegaeshi where you can see shoulder slack.

Rob

Kevin Leavitt
09-04-2008, 11:14 PM
thanks for the clarification Rob.

raul rodrigo
09-05-2008, 12:26 AM
Sorry if I offended you, Kevin.

raul rodrigo
09-05-2008, 01:38 AM
I can't tell you anything about aiki in grappling. Dan or Rob John would. My observations had to do with the standing waza in the video, ikkyo, nikyo and kote gaeshi. The kote gaeshi particularly caught my attention. Roy Dean enters behind, reaches over with his other hand, grabs uke's wrist and throws. Its a waza of someone used to throwing someone who is roughly the same size as tori. Against someone significantly larger, tori would have to make a much closer entry and intercept the incoming hand much sooner, establish a center to center connection very early and take uke's balance. It takes internal power to create that kind of kuzushi with even a light touch.

salim
09-05-2008, 04:51 AM
I can't tell you anything about aiki in grappling. Dan or Rob John would. My observations had to do with the standing waza in the video, ikkyo, nikyo and kote gaeshi. The kote gaeshi particularly caught my attention. Roy Dean enters behind, reaches over with his other hand, grabs uke's wrist and throws. Its a waza of someone used to throwing someone who is roughly the same size as tori. Against someone significantly larger, tori would have to make a much closer entry and intercept the incoming hand much sooner, establish a center to center connection very early and take uke's balance. It takes internal power to create that kind of kuzushi with even a light touch.

Most kote gaeshi that we see or demonstrated in most dojos, uke simply places his hand in front of tori waiting for tori to apply the kote gaeshi, which is not what happens in a real ALIVE altercation. A punching uke (to your face) would require entering from behind. ALIVE training of kote gaeshi is much different than the floating, here's my hand, I'll wait for tori to apply the kote gaeshi. Sure there instances when you have to adjust a technique depending on the situation, REAL ALIVE situations.

Roy Dean is showing ALIVE training. That's the difference in what you are seeing and are accustomed to.

rob_liberti
09-05-2008, 05:50 AM
I have no interest in picking on Roy. I think what he is doing is great.

In terms of "aiki" as I currently understand it:
-the first requirement is that you have a "trained body" for internal power and internal skill - meaning that you have all of your lines of intent in balance - or you can think of it as you are managing all of he forces in your body in in 6 directions
-now, as I understand it, as long as your "trained body" is more well trained then the attacker, ALIVE vs static doesn't seem to make too much difference. I could be wrong. But in my limited experience when I am attacking freely Dan is basically ignoring me.

What seems to happen is that you touch them (or they touch your attacking hand/arm or somewhere else on your attacking body), your trained body is less of a trained body than the person you are punching (or trying to throw), and what happens is that the attackers center becomes instantly available/accessible. And none of what I wrote so far is aiki YET.

At that point - the person being attacked with the better trained body can instantly use "aiki" such that the attacker's body just starts giving up their center and has to desperately try to adjust. No amount of movement seems to help. It is too instant, and you feel like your body is kind of betraying your desire to hit the other person - or throw them (to keep things in line with the thread).

The only thing that helps is to try to start adjusting by managing your own contradictory forces (lines of intent in the 6 directions) in your own body and try to "get ahead" and "stay just ahead" of what the aiki defender is likely to do. So in a sense it's like grappling and aikido in that regard - but all of that adjustment and getting ahead and staying just ahead is all happening primarily internally as opposed to big external movements of should muscles, hip muscles, arms and legs, etc.

I think the idea here is that you get your own aiki going on, but realistically you also still have to train "positional dominance" like everyone else in grappling just in case they have better aiki than you do (you want to have the best chance of getting to use your aiki first where they are weakest relative to you).

So, I don't think LIVE training makes much difference when you have an extreme advantage in terms of body skills and aiki. However, there are enough people out there now teaching such things that "positional dominance" (which was never a bad thing to know well) is still critically important for grappling and defending against grappling. - and most people in aikido do not know it very well at all.

In the best of the aikidoTM dojos we typically learn to move very well in terms of hiding our bodies weaknesses relative to the attacker. (The worst - well are the worst for a reason!) The problem is that the moment you blow it - that grappler owns you. So people like Kevin, Roy, and many others (I was leaning there myself) thought well that's a major gap in my defense I need to close. This is not a bad thing - it's an awesome thing. Buy Roy's tapes!

Kevin if you want to make some money - make tapes of how aikido people can best establish "positional dominance" in all of the typical ways to let them practice their set ups. Just that. I'll buy it. Really.

In terms of tapes with aikido + grappling, it's interesting, but for me personally I am just not terribly interested in anyone else's kotegaeshi these days. Frankly, I like mine the best. :)

Rob

salim
09-05-2008, 11:09 AM
I have no interest in picking on Roy. I think what he is doing is great.

In terms of "aiki" as I currently understand it:
-the first requirement is that you have a "trained body" for internal power and internal skill - meaning that you have all of your lines of intent in balance - or you can think of it as you are managing all of he forces in your body in in 6 directions
-now, as I understand it, as long as your "trained body" is more well trained then the attacker, ALIVE vs static doesn't seem to make too much difference. I could be wrong. But in my limited experience when I am attacking freely Dan is basically ignoring me.

What seems to happen is that you touch them (or they touch your attacking hand/arm or somewhere else on your attacking body), your trained body is less of a trained body than the person you are punching (or trying to throw), and what happens is that the attackers center becomes instantly available/accessible. And none of what I wrote so far is aiki YET.

At that point - the person being attacked with the better trained body can instantly use "aiki" such that the attacker's body just starts giving up their center and has to desperately try to adjust. No amount of movement seems to help. It is too instant, and you feel like your body is kind of betraying your desire to hit the other person - or throw them (to keep things in line with the thread).

The only thing that helps is to try to start adjusting by managing your own contradictory forces (lines of intent in the 6 directions) in your own body and try to "get ahead" and "stay just ahead" of what the aiki defender is likely to do. So in a sense it's like grappling and aikido in that regard - but all of that adjustment and getting ahead and staying just ahead is all happening primarily internally as opposed to big external movements of should muscles, hip muscles, arms and legs, etc.

I think the idea here is that you get your own aiki going on, but realistically you also still have to train "positional dominance" like everyone else in grappling just in case they have better aiki than you do (you want to have the best chance of getting to use your aiki first where they are weakest relative to you).

So, I don't think LIVE training makes much difference when you have an extreme advantage in terms of body skills and aiki. However, there are enough people out there now teaching such things that "positional dominance" (which was never a bad thing to know well) is still critically important for grappling and defending against grappling. - and most people in aikido do not know it very well at all.

In the best of the aikidoTM dojos we typically learn to move very well in terms of hiding our bodies weaknesses relative to the attacker. (The worst - well are the worst for a reason!) The problem is that the moment you blow it - that grappler owns you. So people like Kevin, Roy, and many others (I was leaning there myself) thought well that's a major gap in my defense I need to close. This is not a bad thing - it's an awesome thing. Buy Roy's tapes!

Kevin if you want to make some money - make tapes of how aikido people can best establish "positional dominance" in all of the typical ways to let them practice their set ups. Just that. I'll buy it. Really.

In terms of tapes with aikido + grappling, it's interesting, but for me personally I am just not terribly interested in anyone else's kotegaeshi these days. Frankly, I like mine the best. :)

Rob
Sure, I understand your method of training. This method of training is based on preconceived attacks from uke. ALIVE training is adaptive and trains the body to adjust, learn how to react to a situation. That's the difference. You stated, “is more well trained then the attacker.” That's an idea of assuming. Assumptions are not realistic situations. You can never assume the abilities of an attacker. What tori can do, is train dynamically and make his mind and body accustom to traumatic experiences, then react to a situation. That's ALIVE training. Assumptions are mere imaginative concepts. They don't have real merit to unknown abilities of an attacker.

Roy Dean is using ALIVE training, because you can't assume an attackers ability. Body trauma usually makes some people cringe. That's why most modern Aikidoka train with this cooperative concept, that may cause you to get killed or seriously injured in a real altercation. Your mind and body want be trained to deal with a REAL traumatic situation.

rob_liberti
09-05-2008, 11:47 AM
Maybe I represented my view poorly. Here's the deal - there are not a lot of people who have "trained bodies" to the degre I'm talking about.

If I run up against someone with a significantly more well trained body than mine like if I offend someone in Dan's barn, or Mike goes into a psychotic rage at a seminar or something then I need to make damn sure I have studied live training with the intent of establishing positional dominance.

However, if I run up against someone significantly less trained body than mine which I assume is the most probable situation at this point, then live training is not nearly AS necessary. I'm actually speaking from a bit of experience in this regard as opposed to theory. Since that experience my body is much, much more trained (and there is a lot of room for improvement still don't get me wrong).

Rob

DonMagee
09-05-2008, 01:32 PM
I think it is simpler then that. Kata/drills show you possibilities of what might happen and what you might do. This is to prime the mind and body with ideas or proper form/structure, balance, technique, etc.

Aliveness teaches you how to actually do it.

Aristeia
09-05-2008, 02:38 PM
well put don

Eric Joyce
09-05-2008, 04:23 PM
I think it is simpler then that. Kata/drills show you possibilities of what might happen and what you might do. This is to prime the mind and body with ideas or proper form/structure, balance, technique, etc.

Aliveness teaches you how to actually do it.

Nicely put Don :)

rob_liberti
09-05-2008, 05:07 PM
No argument here. I'm just finding it to be the #2 most important thing.

Rob

Kevin Leavitt
09-05-2008, 08:53 PM
Raul,

You did not offend me. I am sorry it came across that way. You were simply the guy that walked into the mess.

I appologize as you are only trying to be sincere in your response.

Thanks for your patience and contributions.

Kevin Leavitt
09-05-2008, 09:09 PM
Rob,

Thanks for taking the time to respond with a detailed description of what you are talking about. Of course, we can't really deal with this subject in digits, and we have been down this road a thousand times, so really not much we say without the actual laying of hands to communicate the differences.

HOWEVER, (you knew it was coming!)

What you wrote is essentially is essentially the same thing that a judoka, or grappler would tell you is there modus operendi for being effective.

I understand you are only trying to put into words what you feel is different in your experiences. I accept that it may be hard to do.

I will leave it at the point that I need to get together with Dan and maybe you to reach a clearer understanding of what it is that your are trying to say!

On making videos on positional dominance:

Well there are tons of good videos out there by people that are much better at this stuff than I. Actually Roy's Blue Belt basics is an outstanding video that does just that!

I have a copy of it, it is first class.

One note on Positional Dominance. I get the feeling that many people think that it is something that just happens. That is....a bunch of stuff happens, things get crazy, people fall down, scramble and then someone ends up in positional dominance.

Of course that happens often, especially in fights where one or two people don't really have any skill at all. They flail and spaz aimlessly until someone ends up on top.

However, if you take two very experienced grapplers, it is a completely different thing. It is a very tight, balanced game which involves many things. Most of what it involves is centering, not being off balanced, proper posture and alignment, shifting weight, getting your center underneath your opponent, uprooting , and off balancing.

An arm drag down properly is really much along the lines of what I learned from Ark and Mike.

I have recently started working with a world class Greco Roman guy. What I feel in him is much the same as this internal stuff. Maybe not as codified, and yes, maybe not honed in on like a laser as they tend to also take advantage off other aspects that come into play in the alive environment such as speed, weight, timing. But interesting is the lack of proprioception and uprooting that occurs when they lock up and get underneath you.

Anyway, that should not take away from the fact that what I experienced with Mike and Ark was very, very useful and applicable as training methodologies. Probably amongst the some of the best use of my time to get better.

The point is, that I think many simply don't have a grasp of the dynamics of what is occurring in the alive environment that is offered in arts like BJJ, Judo, and Wrestling.

Many of these guys do much of the core stuff intuitively....you simply have to develop a certain degree of it in order to grow and be successfful.

I do think also though, that if they isolated it more, and maybe focused a little bit on the methodologies of Ark and Mike that it would only serve to strengthen them that much more maybe!

Anyway, those are my thoughts right now.

DH
09-05-2008, 09:10 PM
I think it is simpler then that. Kata/drills show you possibilities of what might happen and what you might do. This is to prime the mind and body with ideas or proper form/structure, balance, technique, etc.

Aliveness teaches you how to actually do it.

No disagreement except to add "flow." I'm a bit of a nut on position as it can make quite a difference. But flow, and more importantly the transition that makes it happen is key. The problem with many arts are that they remain static-in that they train either one or two step kata's or hyper-limited, semi-cooperative freestyle.
I think one of the defining differences from just drills (kata) to live training is the give and take of ever changing conditions. I might be perceiving an opening for an omo plata and they might be feeling real antsy about where their arm is placed and oops....there they go and I have a pair of hips hiking up on my side that I need to respond to .
So I think you'd agree its not just "about how to actually do it", its doing that under very adversarial conditions- maybe against someone equally versed.And hey, its not even just doing it, its thinking and planning, offering openings, feints and following up, maybe on your second attempt, maybe not. Add in fists and knees and it's more complex. I think that places things in a more complex environment that transcends simple definitions of stand up or ground. Its why I have always referred to grappling as physical chess, and classical jujutsu as pretzal logic.
IMO Most classical waza-ain't gonna happen. The stuff that does, needs to be trained with someone who doesn't give a crap about it .
Learning from the flat of your back can be the best classes of all.

DH
09-05-2008, 10:58 PM
An arm drag down properly is really much along the lines of what I learned from Ark and Mike.
And the response or resistence to it is not?
An arm drag down usuallty breaks their connection, or lifts them from their hips when on the ground. Or brings them to be forward weighted on their toes and then up and down- when standing.
All of which is exceedingly enhanced and increased (either in execution or in resistence and change) through internal training. That enhancement is not made manifest in just single techniques or movements. It is throughout everything you do.
Again I suggest that you give this a while to develop in you. I believe that as your body changes-so will your asessments and opinions of its affect on you and all you do.
In that respect a grappler is different than most budo people. their harder to convince for some very logical reasons. As the stress level of resistence in fighting goes up, the more development is needed to meet the demand, and the less likely someone is to be patient to allow such a shift to grow. They don't see the results in that venue as rapidly or as clearly as in less stressful environtments or arts.
An aikidoka is hardly going to deliver the same level of stress to your internal developement as a grappler.
Therefore aikido people will see "results' first. Their developement -at any given phase- is demonstrabable due to far less stress in testing.


I have recently started working with a world class Greco Roman guy. What I feel in him is much the same as this internal stuff. Maybe not as codified, and yes, maybe not honed in on like a laser as they tend to also take advantage off other aspects that come into play in the alive environment such as speed, weight, timing. But interesting is the lack of proprioception and uprooting that occurs when they lock up and get underneath you.
I disagree and I spent years playing with Greco Roman guys. There is relaxed wrestling and changing of body parts being used within on position, say a headlock being driven by a down weight, switching to a hip lever, changing to squeeze and lift-all while standing there fighting. What this does is very intersting to both parties. In a prolonged choke attempt it helps a wredtler not get as gassed as different body parts are assigned the work. It also has a signficant affect on the guy being handled as he has trouble resisting any single load. By the time he recognizes the source it's changed. In all its forms this is sophisticated wrestling. However, it is externally driven use of muscle. It isn't internal.

The point is, that I think many simply don't have a grasp of the dynamics of what is occurring in the alive environment that is offered in arts like BJJ, Judo, and Wrestling.
Uh...okay

Many of these guys do much of the core stuff intuitively....you simply have to develop a certain degree of it in order to grow and be successfful.
core training is not the same as the training you are pursuing, or I think are pursuing.

I do think also though, that if they isolated it more, and maybe focused a little bit on the methodologies of Ark and Mike that it would only serve to strengthen them that much more maybe!
Well the guys who taught me to wrestle were collegiatw champs and don't have a freakin clue what I am talking about nor the foggiest idea of how to get there.

Anyway, those are my thoughts right now.
Again, if you remain training it will be interesting to read you in 5 years or so. But you never know about people. You're not only as guilty as aikido people trying to learn it through waza...your worse!!
I know...I was you. How are -we- worse? It's a higher stress environment requiring a total revamping to get there. I didn't want to do it. I couldn't stop. I had to stop lifting and fighting, and re-learn through failing at something I was previously good at and going slow. It was humiliating and I had to endure friends telling me I was nuts to pursue this junk. Faith in it, kept me going when I was continually landing on the flat of my back.
I wouldn't trade that training, those continuous failures, and what I developed for gold. But I had to face stopping, developing my body, going back, failing, developing the body, failing, etc. there was no way to learn it...there.
In the end, the same power used in that venue, will make aikido one of the most powerful arts in the world. It is a way to answer some of the unanswered questions of the power of aikido.
But there really is only one way to get there. You have to be invested in it-barring all else. If you practice in part, you will know in part, it's that simple.
Most guys I know cannot and will not let go of what they know, and it bleeds into what they think they know when assessing other things. It can't be helped.
We won't know about every group now training and how they learn to develop power for a few years.
It should be interesting to see who devoted their whole selves to it and who just kept doing their arts.
The former will become the new "go to guys" for the later.
I suspect it's always been that way.

Kevin Leavitt
09-05-2008, 11:30 PM
thanks Dan.

makuchg
09-24-2008, 07:05 AM
I think the reason this conversation continues is because there is never going to be an answer. The original question posed is aikido against a grappler...this is a very open question and IMO the answer is yes and no and maybe. It depends on the fighters. Miyamoto Mushashi, a revered swordsman, studied cane and bo and chain weapons not so he could use them, but so he could defend against them with his sword.

If you want to know if YOUR aikido works against a grappler, find a grappler and try. If you determine there are weaknesses, study the weaknesses so you can use your base system to defend against them. Trying to learn multiple systems can be daunting, but if you use Aikido (assuming its your primary art) as a base for foot work, centering, blending, and entering; then learning how other arts attack or enter, you can apply our aiki principles to the defense.

If you are a grappler and never learn to strike or effectively deal with strikers you are going to be unprepared to deal with this offense in a situation. Every MMA fighter I have seen and know, has a base system, whether it is kick boxing, wrestling, or even aikido (DeLuca) who learn how other fighting systems apply their techniques in order to make their base system effective against them.

I like Kevin's line from earlier in this string....my BJJ is Aiki.

--Greg

Buck
09-24-2008, 07:57 AM
I think the reason this conversation continues is because well...
I think this is a question that is well....never mind.

Here is the formula for against a grappler which 99.9% of Aikidoka will never come up against in a self-defense situation.

1. Yes, find a grappler and train against him intensely and relentlessly. If you want.

2. Or you can by-pass all that long hard work and go to an outside sourse and get the "special how to" info. Good luck with that because that may tell you how without all the hard work but is it isn't the same as putting in the time with the hands on.

Aristeia
09-24-2008, 12:52 PM
Every MMA fighter I have seen and know, has a base system, whether it is kick boxing, wrestling, or even aikido (DeLuca) who learn how other fighting systems apply their techniques in order to make their base system effective against them.

this is already not the case for many and over the next 5 years or so you'll find most serious MMA fighters got their base simply in MMA...

DonMagee
09-24-2008, 01:40 PM
I think the reason this conversation continues is because well...
I think this is a question that is well....never mind.

Here is the formula for against a grappler which 99.9% of Aikidoka will never come up against in a self-defense situation.

1. Yes, find a grappler and train against him intensely and relentlessly. If you want.

Valid, but slightly flawed. More on this in a second.


2. Or you can by-pass all that long hard work and go to an outside sourse and get the "special how to" info. Good luck with that because that may tell you how without all the hard work but is it isn't the same as putting in the time with the hands on.
Might work, but without actually grappling yourself how do you know...
A) The teacher knows how to do it and has done it.
B) You learned correctly.
C) Even with the proper information that you can do it.

It comes down to this. If you want to learn to fight a grappler, you need to learn how to grapple AND get proper grappling instruction. The same goes if we are talking about striking. Yes, you are going to learn a few things without instruction, but you are also going to learn a lot of bad habits. Does this mean you need to take bjj to beat a bjj fighter? No, there are plenty of grappling systems out there. But you need to make sure your teacher has fought bjj fighters if he is to comment on how to beat them.

NOTHING makes me get snippy faster then a instructor who says "BJJ guys do this" and has never trained bjj or fought a bjj student.

Buck
09-24-2008, 04:24 PM
Flawed, naw more like I implied it. Perhaps I should have put in proper. I agree. You just can't get any one who says they have Bjj or grappling experience if you really are serious about taking on a grappler. You have to train up against the best, those who are top end competitors the pros and not the amateurs. Otherwise your only as good as your training. Your only as good as what you trained against. Yea, too many people research then lecture subtituting that for hands-on experience. I guess it is easier to get credibility talking about it.

I agree you need to know a grapplers game is, but not necessary. See it goes along the same lines as you need to read your attacker. You don't know what any one who attacks you is capable of skilled at before the attack. You have that luxury in sport fighting.

You can study your opponent's past fight and fighting strengths and weaknesses prior to a sport fight, that isn't a luxury on the street. On the street you don't know who you are dealing with and sometimes the ones that aren't trained in anything can be the most unpredictable and thus the most dangerous.

Enrique Antonio Reyes
09-30-2008, 09:10 PM
Definitely. But then, you must train for it. Ground is quite an alien place to be for most aikidoka...

In my opinion. An Aikidoka may be able to defend himself by adopting techniques from grappler's themselves. You can't rely on your Aikido when it goes to the ground just as grappler's couldn't rely on grappling or ground fighting when faced with multiple attackers.

I recently watched a 4th degree aikido blackbelt almost got choked out by a whitebelt who learned grappling while watching you tube. The future of martial arts has already arrived. Everybody cross trains nowadays and I believe we should too.

One-Aiki,

Iking

Enrique Antonio Reyes
09-30-2008, 09:15 PM
I think the reason this conversation continues is because there is never going to be an answer. The original question posed is aikido against a grappler...

Again IMO the reason why this thread continues is because we are afraid of the answer. The answer is simply...NO. The aikidoka will not be able to hold his own in the ground against a certified grappler. We never trained against an unwilling opponent and that puts us at a disadvantage versus grapplers not only on the ground but I say even standing up.:straightf

salim
09-30-2008, 11:34 PM
Again IMO the reason why this thread continues is because we are afraid of the answer. The answer is simply...NO. The aikidoka will not be able to hold his own in the ground against a certified grappler. We never trained against an unwilling opponent and that puts us at a disadvantage versus grapplers not only on the ground but I say even standing up.:straightf

Wow, I admire your honesty. I couldn't agree more, it's reality.

John A Butz
09-30-2008, 11:58 PM
Mr. Reyes,

While I do agree with the statement that a lack of live training against resistance will make dealing with real martial conflict of any variety difficult, I would caution you to be careful about the use of such blanket statements as "We never trained against an unwilling opponent and that puts us at a disadvantage versus grapplers not only on the ground but I say even standing up."

There are many people practicing aikido, in a variety of dojo, with a variety of goals and objectives to their practice, and frankly, even within an given organization you will encounter a wide variety of interpretations of the art and methods of practice, with widely varying results. Even just the relatively small sample size of practicioners that can be found on aikiweb contains more then a few people with concerns for martial effectiveness and training paradigms that allow them to use their aikido even in resistive environments. Because it is a concern and a goal for them, they DO train for it.

I understand your statement as implying that mainline aikido, as is generally practiced and perceived, lacks a live training method, and I do agree. I don't think that those of us that are interested in live training and applied, martially sound aikido do our cause any help, however, by making blanket statements about ALL aikido.

With respect,

--John A Butz

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-01-2008, 12:25 AM
Mr. Reyes,

While I do agree with the statement that a lack of live training against resistance will make dealing with real martial conflict of any variety difficult, I would caution you to be careful about the use of such blanket statements as "We never trained against an unwilling opponent and that puts us at a disadvantage versus grapplers not only on the ground but I say even standing up."

There are many people practicing aikido, in a variety of dojo, with a variety of goals and objectives to their practice, and frankly, even within an given organization you will encounter a wide variety of interpretations of the art and methods of practice, with widely varying results. Even just the relatively small sample size of practicioners that can be found on aikiweb contains more then a few people with concerns for martial effectiveness and training paradigms that allow them to use their aikido even in resistive environments. Because it is a concern and a goal for them, they DO train for it.

I understand your statement as implying that mainline aikido, as is generally practiced and perceived, lacks a live training method, and I do agree. I don't think that those of us that are interested in live training and applied, martially sound aikido do our cause any help, however, by making blanket statements about ALL aikido.

With respect,

--John A Butz

Hi John. Thank you for your inputs. I do admire you because you have put your Aikido training in context with reality.

As sweeping as my statement sounds It is really just under the premise of an Aikidoka grappling with a grappler.

I believe that Aikido is a martial art on a different plane and incomparable to grappling arts (I'm talking about the spirit from which the art was founded). On a one-on-one physical/combat level it is just plain inferior. Again, as I always emphasize IMO (In My Opinion)

Have a nice day.

One-Aiki,

Iking

raul rodrigo
10-01-2008, 09:16 AM
On a one-on-one physical/combat level it is just plain inferior. Again, as I always emphasize IMO (In My Opinion)

I understand where you are coming from, and in fact most aikidoka confronted with a wrestler or skilled judoka would have major problems. On the other hand, a sweeping statement about the art as a whole being inferior would seem iffy to me. Many of the original students of Osensei were skilled dan grade judoka--Tomiki, Mochizuki, Saotome, Shioda, Chiba, Kanai, Nishio---and yet they found something in the art that their grappling and fighting skills could not overcome. Saotome was a young judo nidan when he met Yamaguchi in 1955 and found that he couldn't throw him with judo, Yamaguchi would throw him effortlessly.

But yes, in our country, most aikidoka cant handle a jujitsu attack. But there are a few aikido sensei here who have cross trained in judo/jujitsu; one could learn much from them.

best,

R

DH
10-01-2008, 08:45 PM
Again IMO the reason why this thread continues is because we are afraid of the answer. The answer is simply...NO. The aikidoka will not be able to hold his own in the ground against a certified grappler. We never trained against an unwilling opponent and that puts us at a disadvantage versus grapplers not only on the ground but I say even standing up.:straightf
While I agree that the answer is no- I don't think it should be limited to groundwork. I think grappling is so profound that is can disharge most TMA'ers and remain standing. Add in MMA capabilities and it supports my contention that good Grapplers / MMA people -are- the senior shihans of the Martial arts world.

Tim Fong
10-01-2008, 11:26 PM
While I agree that the answer is no- I don't think it should be limited to groundwork. I think grappling is so profound that is can disharge most TMA'ers and remain standing. Add in MMA capabilities and it supports my contention that good Grapplers / MMA people -are- the senior shihans of the Martial arts world.

I think one of the hardest things about using internal skill and grappling, is learning not to "fight" the opponent. I'm still working on that. Any suggestions Dan?

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-02-2008, 03:44 AM
I think one of the hardest things about using internal skill and grappling, is learning not to "fight" the opponent. I'm still working on that. Any suggestions Dan?

That's what AIKIDO (I think) is all about. I mean the training is (I believe) just an expression. The real point of AIKIDO is not fighting...or grappling (in my opinion).

One-Aiki,

Iking

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-02-2008, 03:49 AM
I understand where you are coming from, and in fact most aikidoka confronted with a wrestler or skilled judoka would have major problems. On the other hand, a sweeping statement about the art as a whole being inferior would seem iffy to me. Many of the original students of Osensei were skilled dan grade judoka--Tomiki, Mochizuki, Saotome, Shioda, Chiba, Kanai, Nishio---and yet they found something in the art that their grappling and fighting skills could not overcome. Saotome was a young judo nidan when he met Yamaguchi in 1955 and found that he couldn't throw him with judo, Yamaguchi would throw him effortlessly.

But yes, in our country, most aikidoka cant handle a jujitsu attack. But there are a few aikido sensei here who have cross trained in judo/jujitsu; one could learn much from them.

best,

R

I admire the breadth of knowledge you contribute to these forums. I guess there's really no way to question the exploits of Yamaguchi Sensei.

But as you mentioned, the few aikido sensei's who could hold their own would be the ones who has cross trained. My point is that we just could not rely on Aikido when faced with a grappler (I guess unless were one of the masters).

One-Aiki,

Iking

Kevin Leavitt
10-02-2008, 06:47 AM
Enrique wrote:

That's what AIKIDO (I think) is all about. I mean the training is (I believe) just an expression. The real point of AIKIDO is not fighting...or grappling (in my opinion).

I think this is probably caught in semantics somewhat.

Philosophically, I agree with your perspective on aikido.

I say aikido is a grappling art.

Your best grapplers in the world intuitively understand that grappling is not about "fighting". They don't understand this from the philsophical standpont, (nor do they necessarily care). They understand it from a trial and error perspective. The more they relaxed and "stopped fighting" the more successful they were in "grappling".

Much of this goes back to the "chicken and the egg"...what came first?

Did O'Sensei develop his philosophy first, then seek to construct a martial methodology out of that philosophy.....

OR

did he learn the lessons through trial and error, much hard work, grappling and fighting...THEN realize that it was a wonderful allegory for his spiritual philosophy?

I think this is important to understand as it affects HOW you approach your training and what you are open to see.

Tim Fong is on the right track. He spends time training internally, then goes out and gets with people that think differently than he does, fails, then goes back and re-thinks and retools.

I personally don't think that you will get far with this stuff if you don't approach it this way.

Allowing the philosophical/spiritual over pinnings (not under) to cloud your perspective of what Aiki is all about puts some severe constraints on what is within the context of aikido and what is not.

Aikido is a grappling based art...one that is practiced very poorly in many ways in order to emphasize the spiritual/philosophical nature of the art.

Our desire to overcome "fight", to "harmonize" and "blend" has left many of us with a skewed and disjointed methodology in many ways I think.

Not saying that we should all go out at mix it up or change dramatically what we are going in aikido...not at all.

On the personal level though, I think it is important to think hard about how your perspective is affected by a particular social paradigm that is strong and pervasive in Aikido.

That is...what came first....the Martial...or the Philosophy? (chicken/egg).

salim
10-02-2008, 08:23 AM
Enrique wrote:

Allowing the philosophical/spiritual over pinnings (not under) to cloud your perspective of what Aiki is all about puts some severe constraints on what is within the context of aikido and what is not.



Kevin, I couldn't agree with you more. Religious zealousness (spiritual) from modern Aikido has left many void of live application. Many simply want to “pray” away marital effectiveness and speak philosophical of what Aikido might be able to do. The real world just doesn't work that way. I always felt from the beginning, from my introduction of Aikido, that there was too many religious undertones and almost no live application. This is something I would like to see change in some circles. I have alway said, I think Roy Dean is one who is advocating for this change. His newest video exemplifies the necessity for live training.

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/dvds

MM
10-02-2008, 08:46 AM
I think this is probably caught in semantics somewhat.

Philosophically, I agree with your perspective on aikido.

I say aikido is a grappling art.



Nice post, Kevin.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-02-2008, 08:55 AM
Your best grapplers in the world intuitively understand that grappling is not about "fighting". They don't understand this from the philsophical standpont, (nor do they necessarily care). They understand it from a trial and error perspective. The more they relaxed and "stopped fighting" the more successful they were in "grappling".

I'm not a competent "grappler" but this "not fighting" and being relaxed is what allows me to deal with those bigger and younger guys who roll like angry wild boars.

DH
10-02-2008, 09:05 AM
I think one of the hardest things about using internal skill and grappling, is learning not to "fight" the opponent. I'm still working on that. Any suggestions Dan?
Hi Tim
I spend time training with grapplers who ask if they can just go at it (no strikes though-that's different training) all out to try and take me down. I never fight back and don't do a single definable waza, until they collapse in a sweaty heap. I don't think someone who just started re-training their bodies are going to get there. It takes time to strengthen and tune your connections so that speed and direction become axiomatic. I only know what we do, and I am not privy to others methods. From the beginning steps I have people moving against resistance and in short order resistance from all sides and angles. With that, there are ways to train to have your connections hold while being fluid and ever changing, then certain things to do, and ways to do them that make instant change of directed forces coming into you. The real key is learning to nuetralize and "change" fast moving power. Grapplers aren't going to use single point forces, or continue a push something that isn't working, we will change. Add in fients and dodges and their own changes and it becomes easy to see that trying to "do" things is not the answer. Usually when the body feels vulnerable its resorts to waza or "fight back." It will forever vex you and hold you back until you "train-through-it." Most people won't. They will forever continue to fight back and use waza to bolster vulnerable position changes and engage.
When you do finally train-through and gain power through a connected body the first thing you realize is that not-fighting was the best fighting, as the ability to throw, hit, choke, etc grow in both ease and opportunity. Not fighting doesn't mean you are not effective, far from it. It just means that moving, without dedication of weight and emminating power without dedication, means you're fighting, throwing, knocking out, without substantial commtiment in doing so.
It makes "holding your own" take on a whole new meaning.

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-03-2008, 12:47 AM
That is...what came first....the Martial...or the Philosophy? (chicken/egg).

Very nice post Kevin. Thank you for your insight... O' Sensei is a well accomplished martial artist. I mean on a physical level he would have probably seen/felt it all. He wanted to change everyone's perspective of the martial arts and that's why he developed Aikido not as a "physical martial practice but rather a "spiritual" one...I could only speculate though (and argue)...so would my argument be the chicken argument or the egg?:)

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-03-2008, 12:52 AM
Many simply want to "pray" away marital effectiveness and speak philosophical of what Aikido might be able to do.

Hi Salim. I'm all for what Roy Dean is advocating.

btw, I like the thought of "marital effectiveness" :)

One-Aiki,

Iking

Norton
10-11-2008, 05:46 PM
Hi Salim. I'm all for what Roy Dean is advocating.

btw, I like the thought of "marital effectiveness" :)

One-Aiki,

Iking

Yeah, marital problems are quite common nowadays. I heard that %50 of the couples divorce in the US.

:D

salim
10-12-2008, 09:27 AM
Yeah, marital problems are quite common nowadays. I heard that %50 of the couples divorce in the US.

:D

Oops, fat finger the entry, martial arts effectiveness.

Brion Toss
10-13-2008, 12:13 PM
Oops, fat finger the entry, martial arts effectiveness.

No, no, maybe it should be a new thread, but I think we have something here. How does one achieve marital effectiveness? Grappling will be involved, of course, but perhaps this is what Dan Harden has been talking about when he refers to the importance of "sparing".

Yours,
Brion Toss

Norton
10-14-2008, 04:16 PM
No, no, maybe it should be a new thread, but I think we have something here. How does one achieve marital effectiveness? Grappling will be involved, of course, but perhaps this is what Dan Harden has been talking about when he refers to the importance of "sparing".

Yours,
Brion Toss

I think that training in BJJ would be great to try out the Aikido wristlocks and some other techniques. And since you have a greatly resisting opponent, it's even better.

Demetrio Cereijo
10-14-2008, 09:28 PM
However, BJJ's guard game will need some "adjustments".
:D

salim
10-14-2008, 09:39 PM
However, BJJ's guard game will need some "adjustments".
:D

Roy Dean has already produced a professional video demonstrating Aikido wrist locks and throws combined with BJJ. An interesting mix that looks very effective. You can purchase the video from his website. http://www.roydeanacademy.com/dvds

Check out the preview of the video. http://www.roydeanacademy.com/video/the_art_of_the_wristlock

Demetrio Cereijo
10-14-2008, 09:45 PM
Roy Dean has already produced a professional video demonstrating Aikido wrist locks and throws combined with BJJ.

Dean is awesome, but you do not know my wife. She has "teh IT".
:)

salim
10-15-2008, 06:24 AM
Dean is awesome, but you do not know my wife. She has "teh IT".
:)

Oh my god. I feel sorry for you. :D

phitruong
10-15-2008, 10:31 AM
Dean is awesome, but you do not know my wife. She has "teh IT".
:)

no butterfly or rubber guard then? :D

Demetrio Cereijo
10-15-2008, 10:27 PM
no butterfly or rubber guard then? :D

My frying-pan dori waza still needs some work :D

salim
10-16-2008, 10:19 AM
Women "POWER."

http://www.maniacworld.com/guy-loses-to-a-girl-in-wrestling.html

aikiSteve
10-16-2008, 09:59 PM
One thing that is different about Aikido versus other grappling arts are the lack of rules in Aikido.

We rarely talk about a biting atemi, but no rules in Aikido say we can't.

Grapplers train for very specific types of responses because they are confined inside of a competitive game. I think to use Aikido on the ground you have to remove yourself from the idea that it's a game.

DonMagee
10-17-2008, 06:50 AM
Sigh............

You know what? I'm simply going to say that shows a lack of insight into what the goal of a grappling art is. How do you bite someone sitting on your chest dropping elbows on your face?

The goal of grappling is not to lay down on the ground and wrestle for 5 minutes. It is to put you in a submissive position while I (the grappler) am in a dominate position. From here you are ineffective and I am effective. This means I can do far more damage to you with my 'sport' techniques then you can do with your 'street' techniques by the simple nature of this positioning.

Or put more simply who can eye gouge better? The guy on top sitting on your chest, or you stuck on the bottom with no grappling training to get out? If you think it would be you, because your art has no rules I suggest a simple teaching exercise. Lay down and have a friend sit on your chest with his knees under your armpits. Make sure he is sitting up straight and tall. Now try to touch him anyone 'dangerous'. You are going to find it basically impossible to do damage from this position. Now try to stop him from poking you in the forehead over and over. Now pretend he is a trained grappler who spends years learning how to hold that position.

Yes you could bite my nipples inside my guard. But the guard is not used on the street, it is used to stop someone from putting you in a dominate position. If you have no grappling training, then I have no fear of that happening, thus no guard is required. I would simply take you down into side control (notice the phrase control), trap both your arms in a mouse trap position and use my free arm to turn your face into a pizza.

The dirty moves are for use when you are in a dominate position. Simply put, if you try to poke me in the eyes while I'm choking you, i'm going to move my head around until you go unconscious. At that point, rather then let you go I'm going to just keep on hurting you while you lay there out cold. If you were a trained grappler who knew a proper escape from a choke, you could escape and try to reverse the position, secure a dominate position and then bite my nipples with impunity.

This doesn't just happen to grapplers. I've seen TKD guys positive that their kicks shatter knees only to get punched in the face while they kick me in my knee. I've seen guys positive they can gouge a guys eyes out only to learn they don't have the skill to punch a man in the face. I've seen an aikido instructor 100% positive his dirty (bites and pinches) would get him out of a full on armbar only to tap out before I snapped it.

So to recap"
Step 1) Learn how to grapple so you can defend against grappling with real defenses
Step 2) Now you can nipple bite.

Aristeia
10-18-2008, 10:27 PM
One thing that is different about Aikido versus other grappling arts are the lack of rules in Aikido.

We rarely talk about a biting atemi, but no rules in Aikido say we can't.

Grapplers train for very specific types of responses because they are confined inside of a competitive game. I think to use Aikido on the ground you have to remove yourself from the idea that it's a game.Don's pretty much covered this but here's my initial reaction.

What you are effectively saying is "we never talk about much less train biting but I guess there's nothing to stop us in theory therefore we will be much better at biting than grapplers who also don't train biting" Which brings us back to Dons point. Take your average aikidoka and your average bjjer and neither are training to bite. So it's a wash. Except that the bjjer will likely have positional dominance and is thus more able to deploy whatever strategy they like.

Enrique Antonio Reyes
10-19-2008, 09:09 AM
marital effectiveness...nipple biting...

Bring it on!!!:D

Demetrio Cereijo
10-19-2008, 03:45 PM
And don't forget the rule: Use videos as supplements to discussions.
:D