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-   -   Mudansha vs Kyudansha (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19914)

Shannon Frye 06-12-2011 01:45 PM

Mudansha vs Kyudansha
 
Both terms are used to mean any students who was under Dan rank. Typically, only one or the other is used in a dojo / organization. Is there a different in the etymology of these 2 terms?

I found a reference online that stated MUdansha implies those WITHOUT, and KYUdansha implies those WITH. Any truth to that?

Thank you in advance...

Peter Goldsbury 06-12-2011 03:56 PM

Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha
 
Quote:

Shannon Frye wrote: (Post 285293)
Both terms are used to mean any students who was under Dan rank. Typically, only one or the other is used in a dojo / organization. Is there a different in the etymology of these 2 terms?

I found a reference online that stated MUdansha implies those WITHOUT, and KYUdansha implies those WITH. Any truth to that?

Thank you in advance...

yuu / 有る aru means to possess, have, or be.
無 mu is a negative particle.

有段者: yuudansha: someone/those possessing a dan rank
無段者: mudansha: someone/those without a dan rank
有級者: yuukyuusha: someone/those possessing a kyu grade
無級者: mukyuusha: someone/those without a kyu grade

級段者: kyuudansha: someone/those with kyuu grades and/or dan ranks. In this case 有 is missing. A similar case would be 高段者 koudansha: someone / those with high dan ranks.

Allen Beebe 06-12-2011 06:53 PM

Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 285298)
yuu / 有る aru means to possess, have, or be.
無 mu is a negative particle.

有段者: yuudansha: someone/those possessing a dan rank
無段者: mudansha: someone/those without a dan rank
有級者: yuukyuusha: someone/those possessing a kyu grade
無級者: mukyuusha: someone/those without a kyu grade

級段者: kyuudansha: someone/those with kyuu grades and/or dan ranks. In this case 有 is missing. A similar case would be 高段者 koudansha: someone / those with high dan ranks.

Peter,

I think you forgot the term used for special cases such as mine . . .

無知愚昧

Without that rank, some of us ;) would have no Aikido rank at all!

Peter Goldsbury 06-12-2011 07:41 PM

Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha
 
Quote:

Allen Beebe wrote: (Post 285310)
Peter,

I think you forgot the term used for special cases such as mine . . .

無知愚昧

Without that rank, some of us ;) would have no Aikido rank at all!

Hello Allen,

Is 無知愚昧 a unique (Beebe-lical) variation of 無知蒙昧? :D

To Shannon Frye,

There is always 初心者 shoshinsha: usually translated as beginner.

PAG

Allen Beebe 06-13-2011 07:04 PM

Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 285314)
Hello Allen,

Is 無知愚昧 a unique (Beebe-lical) variation of 無知蒙昧? :D

PAG

Hi Peter,

Nothing slips by you! Not even little known Beebe-lical variants!!

無知愚昧 ● むちぐまい ● MUCHIGUMAI

むちぐまい
EDICT (1 entry)

無知愚昧 [むちぐまい: MUCHIGUMAI] unenlightened, in the darkest ignorance, not knowing from A to B

VS

無知蒙昧 ● むちもうまい ● MUCHIMOUMAI

むちもうまい
EDICT (1 entry)

無知蒙昧 [むちもうまい: MUCHIMOUMAI] unenlightened, in the darkest ignorance

Not knowing from A to B is the special Beebe twist!! :o

Not everyone is astute enough to detect the subtle :hypno: yet delectable difference between these two. Not even Dante dared plumb the depths that true Beebe's proudly call home!

Greed? Yes! Hatred? Yes! Ignorance? Nope! (In defense of Dante some may assert that heresy is the equivalent of ignorance, but we Beebe's are quick to point out that one can't be a heretic not knowing from A to B!)

By the way, it has been asserted that not knowing from A to B was the original cause for the name "Beebe" (of old English origin BTW) to be first brought into use, as a sort of identifier.

"Oh don't mind him. He's the village "BB!" He means no harm."

But that's just stupid! :rolleyes:

Shannon Frye 07-03-2011 10:59 PM

Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha
 
To Prof. Goldsbury,
Thanks so much ! It makes much more sense now. It would lose it's charm and attraction, but perhaps would be so much more simpler if we here in the US just used English.

Shannon

Peter Goldsbury 07-04-2011 12:02 AM

Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha
 
Quote:

Shannon Frye wrote: (Post 287071)
It would lose it's charm and attraction, but perhaps would be so much more simpler if we here in the US just used English.

Shannon

Thank you.

On the other hand, think how dull Aikiweb would become, without all the discussion about the 'real' meaning of the Japanese terms used: what is the role of a sempai in a dojo, or whether Sensei really means 'teacher'. :)

I had a discussion with Yamada Yoshimitsu Shihan in Tokyo recently. I do not think I am breaking any confidences when I state that the recent loss of two of his friends was a big wrench for him. Someone he could pick up the phone and talk to, whenever he felt like it, was no longer around to listen and respond. We were speaking in English, but he referred to Nobuyoshi Tamura as his sempai. Of course, I knew exactly what he meant, but I think this is because I have lived here for such a long time and have encountered the word in its original context so many times.

But language is a living thing and cannot really be bound by rules. Of course, every language has semantics, syntax and phonology, which help to determine the degree to which someone is talking sense or nonsense. But, what is sometimes overlooked is that virtually every language borrows from, steals from, and donates to, other languages. So it might be that sempai is being anglicized in US English, to an extent not found elsewhere.

Best wishes,


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