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Old 06-12-2011, 02:45 PM   #1
Shannon Frye
Dojo: Aikido Fellowship of VA / Chesapeake Va
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Mudansha vs Kyudansha

Both terms are used to mean any students who was under Dan rank. Typically, only one or the other is used in a dojo / organization. Is there a different in the etymology of these 2 terms?

I found a reference online that stated MUdansha implies those WITHOUT, and KYUdansha implies those WITH. Any truth to that?

Thank you in advance...

"In the end there can be only one"

www.AikidoFellowship.com
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Old 06-12-2011, 04:56 PM   #2
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha

Quote:
Shannon Frye wrote: View Post
Both terms are used to mean any students who was under Dan rank. Typically, only one or the other is used in a dojo / organization. Is there a different in the etymology of these 2 terms?

I found a reference online that stated MUdansha implies those WITHOUT, and KYUdansha implies those WITH. Any truth to that?

Thank you in advance...
yuu / 有る aru means to possess, have, or be.
無 mu is a negative particle.

有段者: yuudansha: someone/those possessing a dan rank
無段者: mudansha: someone/those without a dan rank
有級者: yuukyuusha: someone/those possessing a kyu grade
無級者: mukyuusha: someone/those without a kyu grade

級段者: kyuudansha: someone/those with kyuu grades and/or dan ranks. In this case 有 is missing. A similar case would be 高段者 koudansha: someone / those with high dan ranks.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 06-12-2011, 07:53 PM   #3
Allen Beebe
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Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
yuu / 有る aru means to possess, have, or be.
無 mu is a negative particle.

有段者: yuudansha: someone/those possessing a dan rank
無段者: mudansha: someone/those without a dan rank
有級者: yuukyuusha: someone/those possessing a kyu grade
無級者: mukyuusha: someone/those without a kyu grade

級段者: kyuudansha: someone/those with kyuu grades and/or dan ranks. In this case 有 is missing. A similar case would be 高段者 koudansha: someone / those with high dan ranks.
Peter,

I think you forgot the term used for special cases such as mine . . .

無知愚昧

Without that rank, some of us would have no Aikido rank at all!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 06-12-2011, 08:41 PM   #4
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Peter,

I think you forgot the term used for special cases such as mine . . .

無知愚昧

Without that rank, some of us would have no Aikido rank at all!
Hello Allen,

Is 無知愚昧 a unique (Beebe-lical) variation of 無知蒙昧?

To Shannon Frye,

There is always 初心者 shoshinsha: usually translated as beginner.

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:04 PM   #5
Allen Beebe
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Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Allen,

Is 無知愚昧 a unique (Beebe-lical) variation of 無知蒙昧?

PAG
Hi Peter,

Nothing slips by you! Not even little known Beebe-lical variants!!

無知愚昧 ● むちぐまい ● MUCHIGUMAI

むちぐまい
EDICT (1 entry)

無知愚昧 [むちぐまい: MUCHIGUMAI] unenlightened, in the darkest ignorance, not knowing from A to B

VS

無知蒙昧 ● むちもうまい ● MUCHIMOUMAI

むちもうまい
EDICT (1 entry)

無知蒙昧 [むちもうまい: MUCHIMOUMAI] unenlightened, in the darkest ignorance

Not knowing from A to B is the special Beebe twist!!

Not everyone is astute enough to detect the subtle yet delectable difference between these two. Not even Dante dared plumb the depths that true Beebe's proudly call home!

Greed? Yes! Hatred? Yes! Ignorance? Nope! (In defense of Dante some may assert that heresy is the equivalent of ignorance, but we Beebe's are quick to point out that one can't be a heretic not knowing from A to B!)

By the way, it has been asserted that not knowing from A to B was the original cause for the name "Beebe" (of old English origin BTW) to be first brought into use, as a sort of identifier.

"Oh don't mind him. He's the village "BB!" He means no harm."

But that's just stupid!

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 07-03-2011, 11:59 PM   #6
Shannon Frye
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Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha

To Prof. Goldsbury,
Thanks so much ! It makes much more sense now. It would lose it's charm and attraction, but perhaps would be so much more simpler if we here in the US just used English.

Shannon

"In the end there can be only one"

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Old 07-04-2011, 01:02 AM   #7
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Mudansha vs Kyudansha

Quote:
Shannon Frye wrote: View Post
It would lose it's charm and attraction, but perhaps would be so much more simpler if we here in the US just used English.

Shannon
Thank you.

On the other hand, think how dull Aikiweb would become, without all the discussion about the 'real' meaning of the Japanese terms used: what is the role of a sempai in a dojo, or whether Sensei really means 'teacher'.

I had a discussion with Yamada Yoshimitsu Shihan in Tokyo recently. I do not think I am breaking any confidences when I state that the recent loss of two of his friends was a big wrench for him. Someone he could pick up the phone and talk to, whenever he felt like it, was no longer around to listen and respond. We were speaking in English, but he referred to Nobuyoshi Tamura as his sempai. Of course, I knew exactly what he meant, but I think this is because I have lived here for such a long time and have encountered the word in its original context so many times.

But language is a living thing and cannot really be bound by rules. Of course, every language has semantics, syntax and phonology, which help to determine the degree to which someone is talking sense or nonsense. But, what is sometimes overlooked is that virtually every language borrows from, steals from, and donates to, other languages. So it might be that sempai is being anglicized in US English, to an extent not found elsewhere.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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