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-   -   Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15199)

dps 10-02-2008 09:30 AM

Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art before Aikido and before meeting with Takeda?

David

Stefan Stenudd 10-02-2008 06:14 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Not to my knowledge - but there are many on this forum who know much more than I do.

aikidoc 10-02-2008 07:11 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Unless you count Daito-ryu aikijutsu which he was licensed to do I believe. He held other licenses from what I have read but don't recall seeing anything stating he taught other arts.

jennifer paige smith 10-03-2008 09:19 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
I think one would need to decide for themselves the definition of martial art and then decide whether instructing in military service counted or whether one felt it is teaching Budo practice that is at the heart of the question.
Then the question could be answered in that particular context.

I might phrase my response this way: O-Sensei did teach warring arts in the military before he taught budo.

Chicko Xerri 10-03-2008 09:34 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Before Aikido, O'Sensei did teach Japanese martial arts and also posture training related to sword posture, he taught this to Japanese dance school. Then after he created Aikido he never taught Martial Arts again. Remember Aikido is not Martial Arts. O'Sensei never referred to Martial Arts in relation to Aikido. Up until his death all that he practiced was Aikido. All of us today refer to Aikido as Martial arts,( I did, but not any more) this notion is incorrect and irresponsible.
Responsible teachers of Aikido would do well, out of respect for the UESHIBA legacy to express Aikido as it is, a unique art. O'Sensei Intended Aikido to be outside the box, outside any category. Aikido is Aikido and beyond any restricted action or thought. It cannot be placed in the category of Martial Arts.To do so is not O'Senseis Dream. ( Aikido was derived from Japanese Martial Arts only ) .

Enrique Antonio Reyes 10-03-2008 10:19 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Quote:

Chicko Xerri wrote: (Post 217587)
Before Aikido, O'Sensei did teach Japanese martial arts and also posture training related to sword posture, he taught this to Japanese dance school. Then after he created Aikido he never taught Martial Arts again. Remember Aikido is not Martial Arts. O'Sensei never referred to Martial Arts in relation to Aikido. Up until his death all that he practiced was Aikido. All of us today refer to Aikido as Martial arts,( I did, but not any more) this notion is incorrect and irresponsible.
Responsible teachers of Aikido would do well, out of respect for the UESHIBA legacy to express Aikido as it is, a unique art. O'Sensei Intended Aikido to be outside the box, outside any category. Aikido is Aikido and beyond any restricted action or thought. It cannot be placed in the category of Martial Arts.To do so is not O'Senseis Dream. ( Aikido was derived from Japanese Martial Arts only ) .

Never really thought of it that way but I believe (in a way) I share the same argument. Probably why we should never compare (nor contrast) Aikido with the other martial art forms.

aikidoc 10-03-2008 11:32 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
What are the references stating O'Sensei never considered aikido a martial art?

DH 10-03-2008 11:44 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
The Yagyu scroll he possessed was discredited by Yagyu sensei.
When he decided to become a teacher and hung a shingle Ueshiba's first and only art he taught was Daito ryu aikijujutsu. Which he handed out scrolls in until the late 30's he gradually changed the waza as he aged but never stopped doing Daito ryu aiki. Which is the power in aikido.
The name aikido was not invented by him. At a public exhibition of martial arts it was determined politely that Ueshiba;s stuff didn't fit, didn't look like Japanese Koryu jujutsu. So a committee created a category of arts called the way of aiki (aiki-do)
Since Ueshiba had already been hand copying the Daito ryu scrolls and changing the name of the art from Daito ryu Aiki jujutsu, to Aikibudo, to his family art names of Aoi ryu, he opted for this new category title as a name for the art.
1. It is widely recognized that Tohei and Kissomaru are credited for the syllabus now known as Aikido.
2. Ueshiba taught the military and assassins and there is ample evidence that he considered his art-martial. In every way.

Ellis Amdur 10-04-2008 01:34 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Dan -
1. Incorrect. The Yagyu scroll was Yagyu Shingan-ryu. There was nothing for Yagyu to discredit. Different ryu. Also, I've never heard before that Yagyu sensei reviewed the certificate. Muto Masao, headmaster of YSR certified it as genuine Yagyu Shingan-ryu. Also, Ueshiba DID learn some Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and this was recognized by Otsubo shihan of Shinkage-ryu. See my (ahem) b o o k.

EA

DH 10-04-2008 06:55 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 217592)
Dan -
1. Incorrect. The Yagyu scroll was Yagyu Shingan-ryu. There was nothing for Yagyu to discredit. Different ryu. Also, I've never heard before that Yagyu sensei reviewed the certificate. Muto Masao, headmaster of YSR certified it as genuine Yagyu Shingan-ryu. Also, Ueshiba DID learn some Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and this was recognized by Otsubo shihan of Shinkage-ryu. See my (ahem) b o o k.

EA

Hi Ellis
I meant Yagyu Shingan when I wrote Yagyu-hey it was late here....
That said, I'll have to look it up but i am quite sure it was questioned. I think Yagyu Sensei said something like, it wasn't signed, or it looked fishy.

Regardless none of that was the point.The point was what he decided to do when he first taught.
Two things remain that were witnessed
When he met Takeda, he quite literally ended up crying in the corner.
Seven years later...when he decided to teach for the first time, he showed up in formal attire one morning at ayabe and announced to his nephew. "I am finally going to be a jujutsu teacher." From then on he taught Daito ryu.

Ellis Amdur 10-04-2008 08:55 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Hi Dan - I think you need a macro of some kind, or better yet, one of those programs that the National Security Agency has. In their case, a button has already been pushed and when certain code words and phrases appear in an email or website anywhere in the world, the computers kick in and scoop up the email for examination. In your case, it would be simpler. Anytime anyone posts anything that asserts or questions that Ueshiba studed something else, or developed something else or that aikido was better than Daito-ryu, the program would kick in and would write, "No, no, no - crying in the corner - everything from DR - Shioda/Horikawa - real aiki - aikido projecting out." Heck, you could refer them to John Driscoll's essay which does a one-to-one correspondence with the various waza. 73% correlation post-war? Bing -one macro, link to John's essay, and we could go out drinking instead.

It's sort of like the judo forum where every time someone posts anything of BJJ, someone has to post that it came from judo - or more often, "all of it is judo newaza." Which isn't true. You change the rules, you change the sport, so why not change the name?
I'm not defending aikido, by the way. It's just that when I corrected the only factually incorrect thing in your post, you popped the macro at me, as if, in noting a factual mistake, I claimed that this meant that Ueshiba - aw heck - blah, blah, blah.

Oh, I'd talk more but I have to go. Every week I make the rounds of all the local churches to remind them that Christianity is just Judaism lite. They keep forgetting.
EA

rob_liberti 10-04-2008 09:17 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Did Jesus practice any other religion than Christianity?

Mark Uttech 10-04-2008 09:31 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 217604)
Did Jesus practice any other religion than Christianity?

Onegaishimasu. Very funny Rob, before Jesus there was no Christianity. Before Christianity, there was no Jesus. On the other hand, before Aikido there was no 'O Sensei'. I've thought about it, and yes, this is the right answer.

In gassho,

Mark

Chris Li 10-04-2008 10:31 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Quote:

Chicko Xerri wrote: (Post 217587)
Before Aikido, O'Sensei did teach Japanese martial arts and also posture training related to sword posture, he taught this to Japanese dance school. Then after he created Aikido he never taught Martial Arts again. Remember Aikido is not Martial Arts. O'Sensei never referred to Martial Arts in relation to Aikido. Up until his death all that he practiced was Aikido. All of us today refer to Aikido as Martial arts,( I did, but not any more) this notion is incorrect and irresponsible.
Responsible teachers of Aikido would do well, out of respect for the UESHIBA legacy to express Aikido as it is, a unique art. O'Sensei Intended Aikido to be outside the box, outside any category. Aikido is Aikido and beyond any restricted action or thought. It cannot be placed in the category of Martial Arts.To do so is not O'Senseis Dream. ( Aikido was derived from Japanese Martial Arts only ) .

In "TakeMusu Aiki" (written well after the war), Ueshiba refers to Aikido as "budo" with great repetition.

Best,

Chris

sorokod 10-04-2008 12:29 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 217604)
Did Jesus practice any other religion than Christianity?

Off-course, Jesus was a jew and practiced Judaism.

Ellis Amdur 10-04-2008 12:50 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Sakyamuni practiced Hinduism. Is Buddhism Hinduism?
Abraham was a pagan. Is Judaism paganism?
Issac Newton practiced alchemy. Is Newtonian physics alchemy? Vasili Oshchepkov practiced judo. Is sambo judo?
Mestre Bimba practiced capoeira angola. Is capoeira regional capoeira angola?
Araki Mininsai learned Takenouchi-ryu. Is Araki-ryu Takenouchi-ryu?
Ono Tadaaki learned Itto-ryu. Is Ono-ha Itto-ryu . . . Itto-ryu?

rob_liberti 10-04-2008 08:09 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Did these people all practice their early study, hang a single teaching their early study, and have someone else change the name of what they were teaching?

Rob

Rennis Buchner 10-04-2008 09:06 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 217595)
I meant Yagyu Shingan when I wrote Yagyu-hey it was late here....
That said, I'll have to look it up but i am quite sure it was questioned. I think Yagyu Sensei said something like, it wasn't signed, or it looked fishy.

It wasn't Yagyu sensei, but the "issue" you are bringing up is that supposedly the item in question was missing a stamp on it (if I recall correctly). There were any number of legitimate reasons that this could have happened and as Ellis said previously,Yagyu Shingan-ryu itself found nothing partciularly "fishy" about the document itself and found no real reason to question it. I think the tone of the comments on the "missing stamp issue" were originally in more of a "Yeah, this is the real deal. Hmm a stamp is missing, that's kind of odd, but yeah this seems real" nature rather than "Oh man, this stamp is missing. There is obviously something fishy going on here!". I believe Ellis and others have discussed the issue elsewhere in more detail and a bit of searching should pull up the info rather quickly.

Rennis Buchner

Ellis Amdur 10-05-2008 12:09 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Rob - everyone of them was a profoundly ungrateful wretch, who, apart from their teacher and in the decades afterwards, never had an original thought, a creative impulse, or did anything different from their teacher whatsoever.They will all go down in history as mere copycats, inferior not only in technique, but also in moral stature. Their moral turpitude is so vast that it should, no it must be discussed ad nauseum, and and evidence to the contrary, must be expunged.
One of more ironic things is Tomiki Kenji. He learned judo, yes, but his Shodokan aikido came from - - - Ueshiba. But he changed it. Did competition. Still looks like Ueshiba's aikido. Kisshomaru was mad - why? Because he DIDN'T't change the name.
Well, he too is a being of vast and unimaginable moral depravity, for the opposite reasons, and we should devote endless hours of preoccupation talking about the same points here too.
Gosh, and let's get outraged about it too. Me, I'm mad on behalf of Lucy, the first human, who who never got full and proper credit - because everything we've done since is all based on her
DNA. Oh, and -
Yang learned Chen t'ai chi. Is Yang t'ai chi Chen t'ai chi?
Hao learned Chen t'ai chi. Is Hao t'ai chi Chen t'ai chi?
Wu learned Yang t'ai chi. Is Wu t'ai chi Yang t'ai chi is Chen t'ai chi?
Sheesh.

rob_liberti 10-05-2008 06:21 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
It just seems odd to suggest that every SINGLE example provided MUST be the same EXACT story and circumstances.

While the overall idea of 1 thing growing out of another is common, what I am reading here is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the situation where 1 thing simply got called something else without nearly as much "growing" as other *similar but but exactly the same* situations. That stands out in my mind as "questionable".

[rolling up my sleeves]
Did Quantum Computer Services become AOL?
Did BackRub become Google?
Did Jerry's Guide to the World Wide Web become Yahoo?
Did Computing Tabulating Recording Corporation become IBM?
Did Brad's Drink become Pepsi-Cola?
Did SBC become AT&T?

Were ALL of the name changes significantly more than just "rebranding" - every single one? No different circumstances in the bunch? That doesn't seem reasonable to me. I am fairly certain for instance that some of the things that say SBC had been doing right went very very wrong after they became AT&T and bought themselves that coveted stock ticker? Evolution doesn't have to be 100% for the better. Sometimes (many times) more popular does not result in better quality in some core beliefs.

Rob

C. David Henderson 10-05-2008 08:18 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
I think we are in danger of taking Ellis' examples out of the context of his original critique. I read it not as an assertion that O Sensei reached some threshold of "species differentiation" from Daito Ryu, which in the case of budo likely would be impossible for us to agree upon. I read it as a reaction to Dan's post, and perhaps as suggesting that it would be more useful for the historical details to speak for themselves with respect to the topic at hand. Am I confused? Wouldn't be the first time, nor the last.

DH

mickeygelum 10-05-2008 12:51 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
:hypno: ...:D ....:crazy:....:eek:

Joe McParland 10-06-2008 12:10 AM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Quote:

Mark Uttech wrote: (Post 217605)
Onegaishimasu. Very funny Rob, before Jesus there was no Christianity. Before Christianity, there was no Jesus. On the other hand, before Aikido there was no 'O Sensei'. I've thought about it, and yes, this is the right answer.

Perhaps
  • Christianity is what one believes Jesus meant; and,
  • Aikido is what one believes O Sensei meant.

Andrew S 10-06-2008 02:29 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
I know this is post-Aikido, but I recall reading somewhere that O-Sensei awarded Hikitsuchi Sensei a certificate in a bo-based system that he had created. I'm curious as to the influences behind it - maybe it was not even Daito Ryu based?

jennifer paige smith 10-06-2008 09:50 PM

Re: Did O'Sensei teach any other martial art?
 
Quote:

Rob Liberti wrote: (Post 217642)
Did Quantum Computer Services become AOL?
Did BackRub become Google?
Did Jerry's Guide to the World Wide Web become Yahoo?
Did Computing Tabulating Recording Corporation become IBM?
Did Brad's Drink become Pepsi-Cola?
Did SBC become AT&T?

Rob

:rolleyes: Do bee's be?
Do bears bear? :-)


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