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justinmaceachern
01-25-2006, 11:16 AM
hi every one, my name is justin and i am a 3rd kyu in aikido, high blue belt in taekwando (itf), and have started bjj 3 or 4 months ago. and i want to say that i have the utmost respect for any stlye of martail arts, and i sickins me to here people talk down at some one because of the art they train in. wsnt it Bruce lee, and Morihei usheiba, and Genral Choi hung hi who said "Peace and unity" it seems people are more interested in what they can do versus why they do it. people tend to lean toward the master that they learn from and thats fine, but what gives them the right to put down someone elses art. so if any one reads this thread think carefully of what you say the next time this topic comes up.
Thank you, no disrespect intended.

aikigirl10
01-25-2006, 01:46 PM
Is there a way to unite all martial arts?

No.

There are so many martial arts out there, with totally different training attitudes, reasons for training, methods of training, techniques, kata forms, etc.

Even if we could combine all the physical stuff, there is no way we could combine the mind-set.

Dajo251
01-25-2006, 02:05 PM
why would you want to unite all martial arts...every thing but aikido sucks....sorry bit of sarcasim creeping out,

James Davis
01-25-2006, 03:29 PM
Justin,

You can unite martial artists when they are under your roof. Be cool to people and develope your own reputation. Practitioners of many styles have visited our dojo; We even share space with two TKD schools! We're not interested in the politics of other aikido dojo. We get along at our school, and when we visit other schools. If people are too judgemental and combative, they're crossed off the friend list. ;) Love all the martial arts, and they'll be united in you. Teach others your way of thinking, and you've got a good start. :cool:

Mark Uttech
01-25-2006, 04:10 PM
There's no real point in uniting the martial arts. That is like uniting a football team with an orchestra.
The mountain and the valley do not pay too much attention to each other.

SeiserL
01-25-2006, 05:04 PM
I love a restaurant with a large menu. It allows everyone to get what they want.

crbateman
01-25-2006, 10:35 PM
I love a restaurant with a large menu. It allows everyone to get what they want....and it allows ME to OVEREAT! :D

Sonja2012
01-26-2006, 12:46 AM
The food-analgogy was the first thing that came to my mind as well - I love chocolate, thai curries and sushi, but all in ONE ?! :yuck: :crazy:

crbateman
01-26-2006, 03:37 AM
Sonja, I second your :crazy:

Amir Krause
01-26-2006, 04:21 AM
Excuse me all of you.

But could someone explain to me:
What does uniting different M.A. mean ?

One can not unify the curriculum, that would create a new M.A. not unify the existing ones.
Most M.A. already use similar ranks, but the criteria for grading is different, due to the difference in curriculum (see above)
etc.
So, What does uniting different M.A. mean ?

Amir

justinmaceachern
01-26-2006, 05:27 AM
I think you guys are missing my point that i was trying to make.
I dont want to take all martail arts and combine them for one art. I simply wish i could end this fued. James i am with you 100 percent. if we are taught to love our own martail art then in turn we should be taught to love all martail arts right. in fact afte a while i am more interseted in looking at other forms of self defense. I just want us to under the same roof at the same time without trying to prove who is the best. I truly believe that this is not the way Morihei wanted it. if it was he would not taking aikido outside of japan, same with Kisshomaru. I mean sumo guys facinated Morihei. He wanted tolearn more about them not put them down.
Well that is just my opinion. :cool:

Taliesin
01-26-2006, 06:50 AM
It seems unlikely that Martial Arts will end up unified at all for a number of reasons.

1. There are way to many 'moves, techniqies, etc for people to master every single one.

2. The best martial art is the best for you. So that if you attempted that diffentent people would
concentrate on those aspects of the arts that are best for themselves. (Even in the same Dojo,
with the same rank and the same jiyuwaza, people chose to do different technique)

3. The underlying ethos of what the Art is about - restraint, knocking somebody out, could not be established through an attempt to integrate all martial Arts.

For myself I would suggest, focus on your core Art (whether Aikido or not) and then magpie snatch the techniques and moves from the other arts that are best for you.
3.

justinmaceachern
01-26-2006, 06:55 AM
Again dave iam not talking about unifying by the means of combining arts. i mean respect ones art like you would respect their opinions. Just because one person thinks the art that they ae training in is better the some one elses doesnt give them the right to throught it someone face. Example:
If you were a black belt in taekwando,and you thought that taekwando was the ultamate art, would you start putting down a 3rd of 4th dan in aikido or any other art to his or her face?
probably not. I thank all of you for your opinions. And for taking time to read my threads, It really does mean a lot to me.

SeiserL
01-26-2006, 08:12 AM
IMHO, there are many of us who cross-train enough to respect the value of all arts, allowing us to enter and blend with them.

But, that is a mental attitude that must come from within each of us.

IMHO, because by definition, martial arts are an adversarial competitive (win/lose) combat art, there will always be those with that same attitude. Unfortunately, it limits their growth to their own ignorance, making them easier to defeat.

Don't worry about their mental unity and work on your own.

justinmaceachern
01-26-2006, 08:42 AM
Lynn im starting to like your opinions. I really feel that if you have an attitude of one who is better then the other, then you missed the whole point.

Mark Freeman
01-26-2006, 09:38 AM
IMHO, because by definition, martial arts are an adversarial competitive (win/lose) combat art, there will always be those with that same attitude. Unfortunately, it limits their growth to their own ignorance, making them easier to defeat.


As Aikido is non competative, there is no win/lose, could we say that it is not a "Martial" Art

Cheers

Mark

happysod
01-26-2006, 09:59 AM
As Aikido is non competative ducks diving shodothugs...there is no win/lose breaths a sigh of relief at the qualificationcould we say that it is not a "Martial" Art while you'll get a lot of non-aikido people from other ma agreeing with you, there's a few of us here who might take exception to that appellation... back to main thread
but what gives them the right to put down someone else's art humans judge things, sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly, it's part of being human. We all have opinions, often they're contradictory and cause dissension. However, this idea of non-criticism falls into my own pet hate - censorship - if someone has an opinion that you don't like, deal with it, don't whine and say they shouldn't say it in the first place.

Alec Corper
01-26-2006, 11:59 AM
As Aikido is non competative, there is no win/lose, could we say that it is not a "Martial" Art

After 15 years I suddenly find out I went to the wrong address? ;-)
Alec

justinmaceachern
01-26-2006, 12:23 PM
Since when has competiong meant anything. just because we are not competing. what the heck is that. some schools of karate dont compete so i guess they should not be considered a sport right.

justinmaceachern
01-26-2006, 12:27 PM
My point is for ian. I am not "whineing" because they areputting down my art. I am simply stating if you are of a high rank and you still put people, or sorry, their martail art down then in my opinion they dont deserve the tilte (rank) that they have. thats all i am saying

Dajo251
01-26-2006, 12:29 PM
As Aikido is non competative, there is no win/lose, could we say that it is not a "Martial" Art

Cheers

Mark
I have read several things that say that aikido is the last true and purest martial art....


also as for uniting martial arts, A friend of mine goes to a dojo, where they train in jujitsu, kemp, tkd and capoera...is that broad enough to be considered unting martial arts.....and they dont do any comepetions they just do demos

Kevin Leavitt
01-26-2006, 03:15 PM
I always liked the Stephen Covey philosophy of "seeking to understand before being understood". I think this is what needs to happen, not only within martial arts, but the world. Ignorance tends to be the tool of devisiveness and prejudice....which is really what we are talking about here.

I know from my perspective that the longer I study martial arts, and spread out my study between several arts, these things tend to disappear and I can a deeper understanding and appreciation of the various arts.

That does not mean there are things that I do not like, or find inferior in the arts, but I have found the process of seeking to understand to be much more "unifying" than "devisive".

Instead of unifying martial arts, I think martial artist should unify themselves by being open minded and adopting a "student of life" mentality! That in itself would go along way into creating peace and harmony!

James Smithe
01-26-2006, 05:08 PM
Anyone who demonstrates their art can put up a fight works has my respect. Also Kyoushin is better than Shotokan.

Michael O'Brien
01-26-2006, 05:19 PM
Again dave iam not talking about unifying by the means of combining arts. i mean respect ones art like you would respect their opinions. Just because one person thinks the art that they ae training in is better the some one elses doesnt give them the right to throught it someone face. Example:
If you were a black belt in taekwando,and you thought that taekwando was the ultamate art, would you start putting down a 3rd of 4th dan in aikido or any other art to his or her face?
probably not. I thank all of you for your opinions. And for taking time to read my threads, It really does mean a lot to me.

Justin,
I think a lot of confusion came from your wrong use of the term unifying. The definition of unifying is:

"combining into a single unit"

So by unifying MA would mean to bring them all together into one unit or art.

Also, respect is never anything that can be demanded. It is something that has to be earned. For example, when I was in the military it is mandatory to address an officer as Sir out of "respect". Some officers earned that respect and you were glad to call them Sir; Other officers were complete idiots and we called them Sir to their face to stay out of trouble, and behind their backs talked about what idiots they were.

I think 95% of martial artists have respect for other arts, no matter what style it is already. Probably closer to 100% for those of us that have done any training in another art for any length of time.

The other 5% are the ones who are training only to prove "how bad they are" and those are pretty much a lost cause.

*drops .02 in the bucket and heads back to the dojo*

Mike

James Smithe
01-26-2006, 05:23 PM
I think 95% of martial artists have respect for other arts, no matter what style it is already. Probably closer to 100% for those of us that have done any training in another art for any length of time.

Where did take my dough come from then?

Derek Gaudet
01-26-2006, 05:38 PM
Anyone who demonstrates their art can put up a fight works has my respect. Also Kyoushin is better than Shotokan.
And here in lies an example of opinion, and how it creates the atmosphere where arts can't get along. ;) See even in a thread about "Unifying arts" there is separation. I think much that has been said sums it up. To see value in others is what's important. It takes a lifetime if not longer to comprehend an "art", "budo", "the way", whatever, to understand all of them would be a great accomplishment. You do not have to make a unification, only keep an open mind. As Seiser said, a large menu is a good one.

Michael O'Brien
01-26-2006, 05:40 PM
Where did take my dough come from then?

LOL James!

The former Tae Kwon Do, now more aptly in most parts of the world known as "take my dough" was founded in Korea, but I'm sure you knew that already.

I actually had a wonderful start to my MA history in TKD. It was the only art I studied for many years but that was a long time ago. It seems after it became an Olympic "sport" most, if not all, schools have gone to teaching it as a "score a point" style sport now instead of a martial art.
*note* The last statement is the opinion of the author only. :)

When I trained it was taught very traditional and our sparring was heavy to full contact in the dojo, not this tap for a point stuff they do now and I loved it.

All that said though, for the people that train in Tae Kwon Do, learn the kata, and progess up through the ranks as proficent martial artists, I still respect them and their commitment to their chosen art.

Mike

neb1979
01-26-2006, 07:05 PM
Hey Justin,

I don't think we should unite all Martial Arts but I think we should try and help unite the people of the Martial Arts. That being said I would have to say in my experience with in the Arts today this is already happening on a large scale. There is only a minority that don't appreciate and accept different Arts. These people that won't or can't accept the difference's with in the Arts in my opinion, aren't really worth getting yourself worked up over.

Just my opinion :)

justinmaceachern
01-27-2006, 05:06 AM
question for james. do you even study martail arts, and if so. Why :freaky:

justinmaceachern
01-27-2006, 05:13 AM
Thank you Ben. Mike whenb you were talking about taekwando being a olympic sport, you have to remember that, that is only with WTF (world taekwando federation). I belong to a harder style that is not aloud in the olympics, wich is ITF (International Taekwando Federation). Confusing but still a difference. I am not even aloud to take part in any wtf style events. Plus i heard that some of the wtf schools have taking out kata's whats up with that.
Thanks for your guy's time and have a good day.

justinmaceachern
01-27-2006, 05:15 AM
I see you on here sempei gaudet

Derek Gaudet
01-27-2006, 05:17 AM
Well, it got to a point where I thought I would contribute my 2 cents...

Mike Haftel
01-27-2006, 09:43 AM
"Is there a way to unite all martial arts?"

Yes and no.

All martial arts are inherently the same. So, in a sense you can not unite what is already united.

But it also depends on what you mean by "unite." Do you mean to ask if it is possible to get all different martial arts styles and arts and somehow have everyone sit down at a big table and get along and agree on everything? Then no. Not gonna happen.

I say that all martial arts are the same because they all use the same exact principles and fundamental foundations of movement, physiokinetics, etc.

Michael O'Brien
01-27-2006, 02:25 PM
Thank you Ben. Mike whenb you were talking about taekwando being a olympic sport, you have to remember that, that is only with WTF (world taekwando federation). I belong to a harder style that is not aloud in the olympics, wich is ITF (International Taekwando Federation). Confusing but still a difference. I am not even aloud to take part in any wtf style events. Plus i heard that some of the wtf schools have taking out kata's whats up with that.
Thanks for your guy's time and have a good day.

Justin,
I also studied USTF/ITF Tae Kwon Do back in the 80's. It was wonderful, and I loved every minute of it. In the last few years though even seeking out USTF/ITF schools (in my area at least) they are still teaching the kata but have gone to either no contact / very light contact sparring when they spar.

It isn't like it used to be, or at least I can't find it around here.

Mike

James Smithe
01-27-2006, 03:09 PM
question for james. do you even study martail arts, and if so. Why

Yes of course I study Martial arts. Why? That's a reason I like to keep to myself.

James Kelly
01-27-2006, 04:26 PM
All martial arts are inherently the same. So, in a sense you can not unite what is already united.I've gotta disagree here. I know it's probably a futile argument because on one hand everything is inherently the same and on the other everything is unique and the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but for me, the commonly held belief that all martial arts are just different paths to the same end is false.

Leaving aside the many reasons an individual may practice a specific art, the ends, the entire reason for the existence of various martial arts, are not uniform:
- In some arts the aim is explicitly to learn the most effective way to harm (or kill) your opponent.
- Some arts are practiced for self improvement/meditation alone and the martial aspects are secondary, or even frowned upon (I'm thinking of the Shaolin Gong Fu I took).
- Others, Capoeira for example, grew as an expression of black freedom against an oppressive colonial regime and are still fundamentally about expression.
- Some are sports where the goal is to learn how to score points within a specific set of rules.
- And then there's Aikido, the aim of which is the unification of the practitioner's individual ki with the ki of the universe (or what have you...:) ).

And the list goes on.

My long winded point here is that to call these wildly diverse practices already united is stretching it. The only definition that would fit all the above would also include yoga and tennis (go Baghdatis) so the only thing that unites them is the fact that they consider themselves martial arts... a long way from inherently the same.

My 0.0632 Zlotych

ESimmons
01-27-2006, 07:55 PM
A unification of all martial arts would either be (a) all martial arts in their entirety or (b) a new martial art consisting of fragments of all previous martial arts.

In the case of the former, each individual martial art would retain its distinctive theory and methods, and no unification in any pragmatic sense has actually occurred. In the case of the latter, yet another martial art with its own distinctive theory and methods has been created.

Anarchism adjures us to be bold creative artists, and care for no laws or limits. But it is impossible to be an artist and not care for laws or limits. Art is limitation; the essence of every picture is the frame. If you draw a giraffe, you must draw him with a long neck. If, in your bold creative way, you hold yourself free to draw a giraffe with a short neck, you will really find that you are not free to draw a giraffe.

Mike Haftel
01-28-2006, 04:31 PM
I've gotta disagree here. I know it's probably a futile argument because on one hand everything is inherently the same and on the other everything is unique and the answer lies somewhere in the middle, but for me, the commonly held belief that all martial arts are just different paths to the same end is false.

Leaving aside the many reasons an individual may practice a specific art, the ends, the entire reason for the existence of various martial arts, are not uniform:
- In some arts the aim is explicitly to learn the most effective way to harm (or kill) your opponent.
- Some arts are practiced for self improvement/meditation alone and the martial aspects are secondary, or even frowned upon (I'm thinking of the Shaolin Gong Fu I took).
- Others, Capoeira for example, grew as an expression of black freedom against an oppressive colonial regime and are still fundamentally about expression.
- Some are sports where the goal is to learn how to score points within a specific set of rules.
- And then there's Aikido, the aim of which is the unification of the practitioner's individual ki with the ki of the universe (or what have you...:) ).

And the list goes on.

My long winded point here is that to call these wildly diverse practices already united is stretching it. The only definition that would fit all the above would also include yoga and tennis (go Baghdatis) so the only thing that unites them is the fact that they consider themselves martial arts... a long way from inherently the same.

My 0.0632 Zlotych

That's not what I was intending to imply by my previous statement. When I said that all martial arts are inherently the same I was not talking about every arts specific goals or intentions about technique or etiquitte, or philosophies, or ethical guidlines, or the sport/martial/fighting/art aspect. I was speaking from a more physiological mindset.

A nikyo is a nikyo. Of course everyone does it differently and every art or style does it differently (some arts don't even have nikyo or insert technique here) but nikyo works because of something. And that 'something' is present in every art; this is because every martial art or fighting art or sport or whathaveyou works on the same principles. Do not confuse this with the cliche about the path up a mountain.

James Kelly
01-28-2006, 09:38 PM
Sorry, didn’t mean to put the path up the mountain cliché in your mouth, but I have to ask, what are the principles that are common to all martial arts? As far is I understand it, the whole big deal about aikido is that O Sensei changed the principles of traditional bujutsu.

Mike Haftel
01-28-2006, 11:16 PM
Sorry, didn't mean to put the path up the mountain cliché in your mouth, but I have to ask, what are the principles that are common to all martial arts? As far is I understand it, the whole big deal about aikido is that O Sensei changed the principles of traditional bujutsu.

A principle is something that is true in every case and instance, otherwise it isn't a principle. Some principles that I can list, among many others, would be triangulation (the two points on the ground where another leg would be if we had them..think of a tripod or a table), down, up, power paradox (power, not strength, comes from proper body alignment, structure, and relaxation rather than from muscle strength and tension), secondary pressure, indirect pressure, how gravity works, void (uke can not fight where uke is not), I can go on and on here.

The point is that there are common threads which link all martial arts together and make the infinite amount of techniques work. If you can learn and study the comparatively small number of principles and physiokinetics instead of techniques then you have a much better foundation to build upon and no matter what art you study, you are pretty much doing the same thing (I say pretty much because obviously every art goes about applying these principles in different ways).

Catch my drift?

I don't think Ueshiba went up on a mountain and reinvented the wheel, so to speak. He just put a different spin on what was already there. He said it himself. He didn't invent Aikido or even discover it. He simply utilized what was already there and pointed it out to other people. It didn't hurt that he was quite good at it though.

So, in that sense, every martial art is already united.

James Kelly
01-29-2006, 03:59 AM
A principle is something that is true in every case and instance, otherwise it isn't a principle.

Catch my drift?Sure I catch your drift. But these principals are by no means specific to martial arts. They apply to yoga, tennis, football (American and European), dance, ..., anything that involves more than one person in a physical, dynamic situation... so to say that all martial arts are united, why leave it there? All physical activities are united by that definition. Which of course is true, but too broad I think.

Mike Haftel
01-29-2006, 02:44 PM
Sure I catch your drift. But these principals are by no means specific to martial arts. They apply to yoga, tennis, football (American and European), dance, ..., anything that involves more than one person in a physical, dynamic situation... so to say that all martial arts are united, why leave it there? All physical activities are united by that definition. Which of course is true, but too broad I think.

Exactly.

James Kelly
01-30-2006, 02:39 AM
So tennis is a martial art...?

Edwin Neal
01-30-2006, 03:45 AM
yeah what a bunch of knuckleheads... how would we ever unify people who can't even agree on what is a martial art? (just messing with ya!)
but seriously... I have proposed the same thing with "just Aikido" and recieved much of the same misunderstanding
unity/unifying... doesn't necessarily entail uniformity or conformity...it does not mean that you must combine all the teaching of individual styles, or learn all the techniques of every style... it does not mean that everyone must have or share the same reason(s) for training

the mountain and the valley are united under the vault of the heavens and supported by the firmament of the earth...

a restaurant with a large menu is very good, but an ENORMOUS BUFFET is AWESOME...

setting aside for a brief moment the idea of ALL MA... i would like to re explore the idea of a unified aikido... don't fall into the traps of being limited by the word Unify or Unite... perhaps we should think of it as a reunion of a family parted by time and distance coming together in community to reaffirm our love and respect for all... in spite of and because of the variety and richness of our characters...

or are we aiki-ostriches that bury our heads and see nothing?

Peter Seth
01-30-2006, 06:09 AM
I don't thing it is possible to unite all martial arts. (Though I think that it is a reality that they are all just translations/interpretations of the same thing - could try to explain but don't have time at the moment).
What can be done, is to unite different Arts towards a single goal and in doing so improve the awareness of each art/group as to the similarities all arts share. Also to the potential of sharing knowledge and expertise - 'only a fool does not want to learn more'.

Six years ago I organised a Martial arts festival to raise funds for Cancer Research UK. The first year I contacted 10 different arts who freely gave up their time and expertise to take part in a day long demonstration of their arts in front of an audience of about 300 - we raised around £1000.
Last year ( the 5th) 14 different arts/ groups took part raising £2600 This year will be the sixth annual festival, planned for May, and I have Marts groups already contacting me wanting to take part -
:) A single goal!!
But as an added bonus there has been created a 'network' of arts who as martial artists and also friends - are only too willing to get involved in basically any way they can to support each other. Whether it be raising funds for charities, doing demo's/seminars for each other giving advice, sharing info, contacts etc, etc.

I have myself delivered Aikido seminars for Martial Arts 'friends' who study Kung fu and Karate - I learned a lot just by being there with 'other arts'.

(In the near future I have arranged for a senior Kenjutsu sensei to deliver a seminar for my Aikido class - I know myself and my students will gain a tremendous amount from this seminar).
And I am hoping to invite a very senior Karate instructor along to share his art with us in the near future.

Mutual respect, friendship, co-operation and an open, mature outlook on fellow M Arts.

Nearly forgot - the interest in the 'Martial arts' in and around the city where I live also increased.

:) Cheers Peter.