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3girls
11-28-2005, 02:29 PM
I have thought a long time and read many articles and posts regarding this subject and I have been reluctant to post my thoughts on this subject as my lack of experience (3rdkyu) may cause people to dismiss the concepts that I present in this post and if that is the case then so be it. I think we all can share and learn no matter the level of the student. I believe that the generally accepted ideology of aikido is what sets it up for its own demise.

First we must define what aikido is.

The most common definition of Aikido is as a gentle harmonious noncompetitive spiritual art. This lack of competitive aikibudo is one reason most budo practitioners believe aikido is only for show. Now when I use the statement competitive aikibudo, I am not referring to the many trophies and medals, which can be won through tournaments. I am referring to the natural instinctive competition brought on by a combat. The concept of one individual being attacked by another individual (or individuals) on the mat with the willingness to engage honestly and freely regardless rank or the outcome; willing to lose yet striving to win at the same time. In all other budo system this competitive combat exists; karate, jkd, kenpo, judo ECT. In arts such as karate when sparring with the sensei or kohai there exists the understanding between you and your training partner that he/she expects you to try and defeat him/her and vice versa. This is competitive combat, even with the pads for protection there exists a do or die mentality. Traditional Aikido as practiced today lacks that do or die mentality, I watch many aikidoka on the mat and through video and they seem to lack that spirit/reality of engagement; the concept of well it's the dojo and he/she is not really going to hurt me exists. We all know of and have seen this; I as many of you am probably guilty of it at times as well. I believe the perceived nature of aikido is at fault, the gentle spiritual ideology of this wonderful art in which we train overshadows the actual budo practice, which is the heart of this great art in which we train. When I trained in karate this lack of do or die mentality did not exist due to the combative nature of the art itself. When engaging in kumite once paired off the fight was on, and lasted until the completion either through knockdown pin or time limit, a level of realism existed during training.

Another reason aikido suffers is its own feudal nature, the samurai class. At the center exists the great leader surrounding himself/herself with his or her disciples. These disciples right or wrong do not question the effectiveness, neither do they test the theory of what they are taught nor are they encouraged to due so. Why? Is it fear, fear of not being a part of the group? Or fear of being excluded from learning the hidden secrets that only the sensei holds? I do not have the answer for you only the individual aikidoka or sensei can answer that for him or herself. We must always be able to test each other regardless of who or where we are in the hierarchy. The Realization that to be effective the art must grow, even if it means challenging the formula that has been handed down. If you were to ask someone to teach you the golf swing, and they told there is only one way to learn the swing, it is my way no other way works as well or is as effective. Would you believe the instructor? Of course you wouldn't, you would think the instructor was egotistical and conceited. Then why is aikido any different? In truth it is not, we only change our perception of the knowledge we are receiving because of the nature of what we are learning.

Of all the martial arts I have seen or been privileged to train in aikido is by far the most enjoyable and versatile. We have the option to be both gentle and excessively hard unlike many martial arts. However the art that I love suffers from its own idolized spirituality. Where budo takes a back seat to aiki, and competitive combat is nonexistent. As an art we must be competitive within our syllabus, we don not need medals or trophies to further our training or to prove that it is effective, just honest committed attacks with the openness to reveal that our initial technique may or may not be as perfect as we believe it to be and that uke has the freedom to go beyond the initial attack. This must be stressed from the highest instructor down to the beginning aikidoka. This attitude in my opinion will strengthen the foundation of aikido not weaken it. Even the founder himself had his aikido challenged. Why not ours?


Thanks
BK
Jhn20:29

Brian Vickery
11-28-2005, 02:46 PM
Hello Brian,

I'm just curious, have you checked out other dojo, styles or organizations to see how they train? Not ALL aikido dojo fit the description in your message.

Take a look around & see if you can find what you're looking for!

Regards,

Brian Vickery

Jorge Garcia
11-28-2005, 03:11 PM
I know of a high ranking person who switched instructors after his teacher put him in the hospital for the third time (and it involved months of recovery). I also personally heard another high ranking teacher talk about how he broke a 5th dan's student's arm in 36 places between the elbow and shoulder with a shihonage. If you really practice at a dojo where the training is realistic to the core, I not only believe you won't like it, I don't think you'll be in this art very long. The nature of these techniques require a controlled atmosphere in order to practice them safely and sanely. I know how to resist techniques and we do that once in a while but making it a dojo method of training is a good way to get a lot of mileage out of your medical insurance. I know where to find a dojo like the one you described but I for one want no part of it.
Best wishes,

odudog
11-28-2005, 03:16 PM
Why waste your time challenging something that has already been challenged and proven to work? O'Sensei and Takeda Sensei has already proven that this stuff works, plus, all the great Senseis that has come after them. The challenge is to make sure that it works for you as well as it works for them. It already takes on average 5 years to get to the Shodan level, just think how long it will take you if you challenge everything.

On the one of the other points, not all styles, Senseis, or individual dojos put the aiki in front of the budo. I can tell you that from personal experience. Like the previous poster stated, check around and you'll find it.

3girls
11-28-2005, 03:22 PM
Hello Brian,

I'm just curious, have you checked out other dojo, styles or organizations to see how they train? Not ALL aikido dojo fit the description in your message.

Take a look around & see if you can find what you're looking for!

Regards,

Brian Vickery
Hey Brian, I apologize my intent was not to vocalize any displeasure with my dojo or my instructor. The system in which I train puts emphasis on this very subject. There are no disposable uke allowed within this system, thats not just coming from my instructor but from the head of our organization. My intent of this post was an observation things that I have seen and witnessed over time. Granted demonstrations are what they are but if you watch closely over and over again you begin to see subtle things that if evident there are evident in free practice. An example is a demonstration I watched in which uke's strike tracked tori's head which allowed technique to happen. It is physically impossible for a committed attack to track its target unless there was no intent to begin with. Yet uke still threw himself. Yes this was just a demo yet I am certain it occurs in free practice as well. Many times you see uke standing waiting while tori is doing something, I am not attempting to point fingers and say that this dojo is better than that dojo, I feel that for this art that I love to grow we need to look at ourselves and our training partners/instructors and test the waters so to speak. No running from 3 mats away arm raised signaling attack rather attack with commitment and regardless of who is on the receiving end of our attack recover to be dangerous and go again. This is how we practice honestly with each other yet this is not a common practice if the truth be told.

Thanks
BK
Jhn20:29

3girls
11-28-2005, 03:25 PM
Why waste your time challenging something that has already been challenged and proven to work? O'Sensei and Takeda Sensei has already proven that this stuff works, plus, all the great Senseis that has come after them. The challenge is to make sure that it works for you as well as it works for them. It already takes on average 5 years to get to the Shodan level, just think how long it will take you if you challenge everything.

On the one of the other points, not all styles, Senseis, or individual dojos put the aiki in front of the budo. I can tell you that from personal experience. Like the previous poster stated, check around and you'll find it.

See we must challange just as they did the problem is that most dont. Uke does his part tori his part uke falls. There are exceptions the dojo and system I train in but in general this is the case. All you have to do is look around and you will see.

Thanks
BK
Jhn 20:29

3girls
11-28-2005, 03:30 PM
I knew when I posted this the point would be missed. The horror stories of broken arms and hospital bills. The my dojo is better than your dojo mentality. This is not what I am saying. try reading with an objective frame of mind.

Brian Vickery
11-28-2005, 03:54 PM
Hey Brian, I apologize my intent was not to vocalize any displeasure with my dojo or my instructor

Hello Brian,

No apology is necessary! I didn't take it as anything negative, I was just honestly curious if you had seen aikido practiced differently than what you had described. There's alot out there is all that I meant.

The people that slam their dojo usually do it anonymously, since you used your full name & dojo, I didn't take it in a bad way at all, I just figured you wanted to discuss what you see as aikido idealogy.

Regards,

Brian Vickery

Jorge Garcia
11-28-2005, 03:55 PM
I knew when I posted this the point would be missed. The horror stories of broken arms and hospital bills. The my dojo is better than your dojo mentality. This is not what I am saying. try reading with an objective frame of mind.


I think I know what you're talking about. I just think you're not looking at it from an instructor's point of view. Everyone is different and people want different things from the training and they also want to learn it it different ways. You may want something done differently that you believe will help the training overall but that's just you. The training encompasses everyone in the room. We let people practice more in the point of your post but only if they are brown or black belts. By that time, they know enough of the art to have the fundamentals down. They also know how to take care of themselves. At the earlier stages, they tend to get the wrong idea and they get the impression that Aikido is about fighting rather than about stopping fighting.
For sure, there are sloppy attacks out there and things that aren't good from a martial point of view. I'm not arguing for that at all. It's just that people that say they want more realism from aikido need to be in that atmosphere to really appreciate what all that entails. Everything has a direction and a destination. People will take whatever you show them in a dojo and extend it. Then you will be dealing with the "horror stories". That's what I want to stay away from. I have plenty of friends with permanent injuries but I'm still here in one piece years later and I don't have any complaints about how we trained nor do I have any doubts if it worked for me.
Best wishes,

Brian Vickery
11-28-2005, 04:04 PM
No running from 3 mats away arm raised signaling attack...

...Yes, this does look sort of hoeky, but you have to start somewhere, so for 5th & 4th kyu, this kind of training is actually necessary...but that has to change after that!

...rather attack with commitment and regardless of who is on the receiving end of our attack recover to be dangerous and go again. This is how we practice honestly with each other yet this is not a common practice if the truth be told.


...by shodan, this should be how a student practices. If practice nevers advances to this level, but stays at the slow, telegraphed shomenuchi attack, then that dojo has a definite problem! It's sad to see, but it does happen out there!

Regards,

Brian Vickery

Brian Vickery
11-28-2005, 04:25 PM
No running from 3 mats away arm raised signaling attack rather attack with commitment and regardless of who is on the receiving end of our attack recover to be dangerous and go again. This is how we practice honestly with each other yet this is not a common practice if the truth be told.


...everybody comes to the art for different reasons, even instructors. I guess the people who are looking for a particular type of practice will support the instructor who is teaching it that way. It may not be what you or I want to practice, but it must be wanted by somebody, or else it wouldn't be existing out there!

...it may be that you will have to keep this belief inside until the day comes when you start teaching. Beleive me, the way you feel about aikido deep down inside is what you will be teaching! At that time people of like thinking will seek you out & support your dojo.

Brian Vickery

3girls
11-28-2005, 04:44 PM
Hello Brian,

No apology is necessary! I didn't take it as anything negative, I was just honestly curious if you had seen aikido practiced differently than what you had described. There's alot out there is all that I meant.

The people that slam their dojo usually do it anonymously, since you used your full name & dojo, I didn't take it in a bad way at all, I just figured you wanted to discuss what you see as aikido idealogy.

Regards,

Brian Vickery

No problem bro :D

This is exatly what I would like to discuss. In the end the founder wanted his art to be one of peace and non violence I agree. But in searching for this we should no lose site of the martial aspect of what we train in. I fear that the line between the two is becoming blurred to the point where many feel that aikido is not a real martial art. Now I am not talking about the ufc or any such thing along those lines I see them as more of a tough man competition. But as the heart of all budo.

Thanks
BK Jhn20:29

Brian Vickery
11-28-2005, 04:45 PM
At the center exists the great leader surrounding himself/herself with his or her disciples. These disciples right or wrong do not question the effectiveness, neither do they test the theory of what they are taught nor are they encouraged to due so. Why? Is it fear, fear of not being a part of the group? Or fear of being excluded from learning the hidden secrets that only the sensei holds?

...I too have seen this type teacher/disciple relationship at seminars and find it VERY odd. The organization that I am in doesn't have this sort of culture, so it not something that I'm used to dealing with! ...it's just down right cultish & creepy to me!

...but then again, there are those who are SPECFICALLY looking for this in their aikido practice ...so to each his own I guess!

Brian Vickery

3girls
11-28-2005, 04:54 PM
[QUOTE=Jorge Garcia]I think I know what you're talking about. I just think you're not looking at it from an instructor's point of view. Everyone is different and people want different things from the training and they also want to learn it it different ways. You may want something done differently that you believe will help the training overall but that's just you. The training encompasses everyone in the room. We let people practice more in the point of your post but only if they are brown or black belts. By that time, they know enough of the art to have the fundamentals down. They also know how to take care of themselves. At the earlier stages, they tend to get the wrong idea and they get the impression that Aikido is about fighting rather than about stopping fighting.
I agree with what you in that training should come at different levels, and all things have a time and a place. The first premise of aikido is avoidence, simply not being there when uke's strike arrives. Creating off ballance effecting ukes center and so on but ultimatly when some one attacks combat has occured wether we want it or not.

For sure, there are sloppy attacks out there and things that aren't good from a martial point of view. I'm not arguing for that at all. It's just that people that say they want more realism from aikido need to be in that atmosphere to really appreciate what all that entails. Everything has a direction and a destination. People will take whatever you show them in a dojo and extend it. Then you will be dealing with the "horror stories". That's what I want to stay away from. I have plenty of friends with permanent injuries but I'm still here in one piece years later and I don't have any complaints about how we trained nor do I have any doubts if it worked for me.
Best wishes,

I belive realism can occur with minimal risk for injury. A commited attack does not have to be ballistic as a matter of fact a persise controlled uke is much more dangerous than a ballistic non engaged uke. Yes injury can happen in anything that we train even golf ;)

thanks
Bk
Jhn20:29

Brian Vickery
11-28-2005, 04:55 PM
I fear that the line between the two is becoming blurred to the point where many feel that aikido is not a real martial art.

...I tell you where that blurry lines gets re-establishled really quickly ....go to a seminar & get paired up with one of those students who don't really apply their techniques in a martial way ...and when they attack and you ACTUALLY throw THEM ...there's no gray area anymore! ...*LOL*...and boy, are they pissed!

:)

3girls
11-28-2005, 05:06 PM
[QUOTE=Brian Vickery]...everybody comes to the art for different reasons, even instructors. I guess the people who are looking for a particular type of practice will support the instructor who is teaching it that way. It may not be what you or I want to practice, but it must be wanted by somebody, or else it wouldn't be existing out there!

Brian,
I agree my reason was after years of karate I looked at what I was doing, and realized there had to be a better way. The art I loved became nothing more than kata's and kickboxing which is great but it is not a martial art. We all have our own path and must make our own aikido.

...it may be that you will have to keep this belief inside until the day comes when you start teaching. Beleive me, the way you feel about aikido deep down inside is what you will be teaching! At that time people of like thinking will seek you out & support your dojo.
Brian Vickery

Thats a long ways away my friend, I have a long way to go but I love this art!

Thanks
Bk
Jhn20:29

Brian Vickery
11-28-2005, 05:10 PM
Thats a long ways away my friend, I have a long way to go but I love this art!

...it will happen sooner than you think, I guarantee you that!

...time flies when you're having fun!!!

3girls
11-28-2005, 05:13 PM
...I tell you where that blurry lines gets re-establishled really quickly ....go to a seminar & get paired up with one of those students who don't really apply their techniques in a martial way ...and when they attack and you ACTUALLY throw THEM ...there's no gray area anymore! ...*LOL*...and boy, are they pissed!

:)

:D Thats funny. You see that is part of the problem though. It should be "wow how did you do that do it again". Not "hey dont do that again".

Thanks
BK
Jhn20:29

3girls
11-28-2005, 05:19 PM
...it will happen sooner than you think, I guarantee you that!

...time flies when you're having fun!!!

:D Its funny most people talk about getting shodan they get it and then they leave. I never understood that heck thats when all the real fun stuff begins :D My system has a kenshushi program begining at 1st kyu, I constantly try and figure a way to get my wife to move to arizona so I could go through the program. I am persistant :)

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

Brian Vickery
11-28-2005, 05:22 PM
:D Thats funny. You see that is part of the problem though. It should be "wow how did you do that do it again". Not "hey dont do that again".

...well, that's just goes back to the reason why a particular person starting practicing aikido in the first place ....some people like the 'art' more than the 'martial' ...I like the 'martial' more than the 'art' ...it's only a problem when we come together at a seminar and they get mad for me throwing them! ...but that's not a problem for me! :)

Brian Vickery
11-28-2005, 05:33 PM
:D Its funny most people talk about getting shodan they get it and then they leave. I never understood that heck thats when all the real fun stuff begins :D My system has a kenshushi program begining at 1st kyu, I constantly try and figure a way to get my wife to move to arizona so I could go through the program. I am persistant :)

...that's a whole other topic, people quitting after shodan! At my dojo about 2 in 100 make it from 5th kyu to shodan ...and of those that are shodans, only about one in 10 make it to nidan! The numbers aren't very reassuring! ...but that's just the way it is!

...and Arizona is great ...and that's coming from someone who spent the first 30 years of my life living in southern California!

Best Regards,

Brian Vickery

3girls
11-28-2005, 06:03 PM
...that's a whole other topic, people quitting after shodan! At my dojo about 2 in 100 make it from 5th kyu to shodan ...and of those that are shodans, only about one in 10 make it to nidan! The numbers aren't very reassuring! ...but that's just the way it is!

...and Arizona is great ...and that's coming from someone who spent the first 30 years of my life living in southern California!

Best Regards,

Brian Vickery

Is it possible that what we are talking about here may play a part in that? I have often thought this when people come and go, I understand we all have personal issues at times I recently took some time off to take care of family issues that I needed to address. Many people do not have a martial arts background and aikido is the first stop or they have a minimal background which clouds their judgement as to what is effective and what is not. I know when I first started aikido I walked into a dojo and saw the 3tatami running shomen uchi and did not think that to be overly effective. I tried the dojo out but left after a few months for many of the reasons I mentioned in my post. Maybe we sould conduct exit interviews ;) much like when you leave a job.

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

Brian Vickery
11-29-2005, 09:34 AM
Is it possible that what we are talking about here may play a part in that? I have often thought this when people come and go, I understand we all have personal issues at times I recently took some time off to take care of family issues that I needed to address.

Hello Brian,

Yes, this could be the reason why some people quit, but probably not the number one reason. In fact, there is no one particular reason, they are as varied as the reasons why people came to the dojo in the first place.

The prevalent factor why people leave seems to be that their aikido practice no longer holds a high priority when it comes to allocating time. Everybody I know is VERY busy, nobody has extra time in their lives with careers, families, school, chores, hobbies, etc, ALL needing to be worked into their daily schedules. So priorities must be established, and when your aikido practice starts to slip further down that list, eventually it just falls into the category of those things that you just don't have time to do anymore.

I guess that's just how life works!

Regards,

Brian Vickery

Brian Vickery
11-29-2005, 09:54 AM
...I know when I first started aikido I walked into a dojo and saw the 3tatami running shomen uchi and did not think that to be overly effective.

Hey Brian,

You know, I had the exact OPPOSITE experience when I 1st walked into an aikido dojo.

At the time, I was taking Tae Kwon Do, and while sparring in TKD I realized that if I were involved in a real fight, there was no way to stop that fight unless one of us got beat down to the point of not being able to continue the fight.

I figured that there just HAD to be a better way! There had to be a way to STOP a confrontation without having to resort to beating another preson silly.

I had heard about aikido, so I stopped by the local dojo to just check it out. The techniques they were working on was kata-dori nikyo. As soon as I saw it, the little light bulb in my head lit up, this was EXACTLY what I was looking for! A guy grabs another guy, the guy being grabbed instantly crumples the attacker & pins him to the ground ...end of confrontation!

I joined that dojo the next week, and have been training there for the last 15 years, and I still love it as much today as I did when I 1st started.

Regards,

Brian Vickery

dj_swim
11-29-2005, 01:00 PM
I also personally heard another high ranking teacher talk about how he broke a 5th dan's student's arm in 36 places between the elbow and shoulder with a shihonage.

Ummm... kay... two things:

1. Please tell me that this is some sort of typo and you meant to say "3" or "6" (both of which are still really horrifying)

2. Please tell me what a shihonage is so I can stay the <censored> away from it.

Thanks!

-Doug

Nick Simpson
11-29-2005, 01:08 PM
'It is physically impossible for a committed attack to track its target unless there was no intent to begin with'

How?

dj_swim
11-29-2005, 02:03 PM
'It is physically impossible for a committed attack to track its target unless there was no intent to begin with'

How?

I think what they meant to say is that it becomes very hard for a truly committed attack to track. Which I personally believe. However I also believe that if nage telegraphs enough (gives an indication of where they will move beforehand), it is indeed possible for a committed attack to track. I personally think that a truly committed attack is committed to hitting someone, not to hitting the space that the person used to occupy... so a certain level of focus is required, not just brute speed/force. IMHO. Of course, I'm really really new at Aikido... but I've been in a few scuffles.

-Doug

Nick Simpson
11-29-2005, 02:30 PM
'However I also believe that if nage telegraphs enough (gives an indication of where they will move beforehand), it is indeed possible for a committed attack to track. I personally think that a truly committed attack is committed to hitting someone, not to hitting the space that the person used to occupy'

Totally agree with that. It depends on the situation and the uke and nage. It's not impossible. Also, there are levels of comittment while attacking, I doubt many people ever attack 100 %.

I believe Robert Mustard sensei said that he attacked Takeno sensei with 90% committment, because the 10 % he held back kept him alive. Was it Oba sensei who was admonished by O'sensei for attacking so hard that O'sensei thought he might have killed him?

Jorge Garcia
11-29-2005, 02:30 PM
Ummm... kay... two things:

1. Please tell me that this is some sort of typo and you meant to say "3" or "6" (both of which are still really horrifying)

2. Please tell me what a shihonage is so I can stay the <censored> away from it.

Thanks!

-Doug

1) It's not a typo.
2) It scared me when I heard it (and I'm fearless! ).
3) I hope I heard wrong but I don't think I did.
4) Its a standard throw.

odudog
11-29-2005, 03:23 PM
See we must challange just as they did the problem is that most dont. Uke does his part tori his part uke falls. There are exceptions the dojo and system I train in but in general this is the case. All you have to do is look around and you will see.

Thanks
BK
Jhn 20:29


We don't need to challenge. The challenges have already been done by previous Senseis. Do you need to challenge great boxers to see if boxing really works? Do you need to challenge your math teacher to see that math really works? No. Too much time has gone by and too many people have already scrutinzed the art so it has been proven to work. Now, you can challenge your Sensei to see if he/she actually knows the art and I pray that your Sensei shows compassion on you if he/she happens to be legitimate.

3girls
11-29-2005, 03:25 PM
Hey Brian,

You know, I had the exact OPPOSITE experience when I 1st walked into an aikido dojo.

At the time, I was taking Tae Kwon Do, and while sparring in TKD I realized that if I were involved in a real fight, there was no way to stop that fight unless one of us got beat down to the point of not being able to continue the fight.

I figured that there just HAD to be a better way! There had to be a way to STOP a confrontation without having to resort to beating another preson silly.

I had heard about aikido, so I stopped by the local dojo to just check it out. The techniques they were working on was kata-dori nikyo. As soon as I saw it, the little light bulb in my head lit up, this was EXACTLY what I was looking for! A guy grabs another guy, the guy being grabbed instantly crumples the attacker & pins him to the ground ...end of confrontation!

I joined that dojo the next week, and have been training there for the last 15 years, and I still love it as much today as I did when I 1st started.

Regards,

Brian Vickery

Hey Brian,
Let me claify My disbelief was with the reality of the initial attack. IMHO begining at toimai is far more realistic and dangerous than a balistic attack. I switched from karate as I said eariler for similar reasons and like you the idea of what aikido is is what hooked me.

Thanks

Bk
jhn20:29

odudog
11-29-2005, 03:32 PM
Brian Keesler wrote:
No running from 3 mats away arm raised signaling attack...


It might look stupid to you viewed with the modern eye but you need to look back into history to see the use of this type of attack. Back in the day, there was the Bonzai charge. We've all seen them in old black and white samurai movies, Braveheart, The Patriot, etc... Japanese like tradition and most of us in Aikido like tradition hence the traditional attack.

3girls
11-29-2005, 03:49 PM
'It is physically impossible for a committed attack to track its target unless there was no intent to begin with'

How?

Hey Nick,
Let me attempt to explain, First lets look at bullet that has been fired from a weapon. Once a target is acquired and the round fired that round will not deviate from its target (now I understand that muzzle velocity, weight, windage,etc have and effect on trajectory) but at short distance the slug will not deviate from its intended target. Now once fired the round has intent, intent to strike its intended target and if the target were to move after fireing the round cannot change course do to its intent.
Now a committed strike is much like this bullet once the punch is fired with intent to strike a target it must complete its course other wise there was no intent to strike that target. What changes is that we are able to think unlike the bullet. We perceive action as it happens and attempt to adjust to that action, unfortunately our mind can not process information through our nervous system to our muscles fast enough to change our intent unless there was no intent to begin with.
As an exercise with this principle have a partner hold a striking pad and you two square off at toimai. This will require you to fully commit since your target will just be outside of your range. Now strike the pad with the intent to do damage as you would in reality, have your partner test this several times by not moving out the pad out of the way. Then at his/her discretion once the strike is launch have them do aikido, move out of the way of the attack you try and track the pad with your strike you will not be able to I know I have tired many many many times. If you have intent to strike and strike with intent whether fast or slow you can not track tori. This gets much harder when done slowly yet still with intent from uke. try it sometime.


Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

3girls
11-29-2005, 04:01 PM
Brian Keesler wrote:
No running from 3 mats away arm raised signaling attack...


It might look stupid to you viewed with the modern eye but you need to look back into history to see the use of this type of attack. Back in the day, there was the Banzai charge. We've all seen them in old black and white samurai movies, Brave heart, The Patriot, etc... Japanese like tradition and most of us in Aikido like tradition hence the traditional attack.

Hey Mike, I agree that it has tradition and I feel tradition is important and it is important to remember it as such. IMHO I ask you as an attack is it the most effective attack to use? I admit that in aikido I am just and infant barely able to crawl but that does not mean I have not trained in other martial arts. From tori's stand point it is easy to work with leave ample time to prepare and anytime uke is ballistic tori's job is made easier. However, would not a uke that is closer to you, more precise with there attack yet still has intent to strike and then be dangerous after the initial attack be better?

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

3girls
11-29-2005, 08:27 PM
I suppose that I am partly to blame so i appologise but the point I was attempting to make has been swept under. the essence of what I was getting at was not this style or that style is better, that attack is stupid or not this is not my point.

If you look at what I am trying to get at it is this type of attitude, I understand that in order to train we must have faith in the art/sensei we choose, however why is it so unreasonable to accept other ideas and implement them, there is no one who knows all in regards to aikido. I have always been taught that for example shodan is just another beginning,that every rank you attain is just another learning process. Yet talk to someone with rank about trying something from another syllabus and see how far you get with it.

Secondly why is competition bad? I am not advocating tournament aikido. So why is it shunned other than the founder did not want his art to be competitive.

thanks
BK
jhn20:29

3girls
11-29-2005, 08:46 PM
I am partly to blame for the direction of what my post was about but the main point of this post has been overlooked. I have attempted to defend small parts of the matter instead of directing to the whole subject so for that i do apologize.

My desire is as always for knowledge, I understand that we must have faith in our system and its instructors but we should always strive to learn. Yet It seems that so many do not truly see it that way. We used to have guest instructors from other styles come to our karate dojo to teach, test and learn how often do you see that in aikido other than a seminar but they are generally people from the same system. We talk about sharing and the spirituality of this art and this is true as long as you are part of this group or that group and do it the same way they do.

Why not competition? , why is that a four letter word in aikido? I am not talking about what has become of tkd or karate but after a demonstration how about a little friendly competition, the sharpening of the sword so to speak. I know that I am not some 30 year aikido vet but I have always been told that advancement in rank is just another starting point and new opportunity to learn, HMMM

Thanks
BK
20:29

Jorge Garcia
11-30-2005, 07:28 AM
[QUOTE=Why not competition? , why is that a four letter word in aikido? I am not talking about what has become of tkd or karate but after a demonstration how about a little friendly competition, the sharpening of the sword so to speak.
Thanks
BK
20:29[/QUOTE]

I think this is the answer to your question.

"The training and discipline common to all the Ways, martial or cultural, consist of three levels of mastery: physical, psychological and spiritual. On the physical level of mastery of form (kata) is the crux of training. The teacher provides a model form, the student observes carefully and repeats it countless times until he has completely internalized the form... In the ultimate mastery of form the student is released from adherence to form. (p.7) …the internal psychological changes (are) taking place from the very beginning. The tedious, repetitious and monotonous learning routine tests the student's commitment and willpower, but it reduces stubbornness, curbs willfulness, and eliminates bad habits of body and mind. In the process…real strength, character and potential begin to emerge. (p.8)
In every martial and cultural art, free expression of self is blocked by one's own ego. (Faced with an opponent) if an opening does occur, it is created by one's ego. One becomes vulnerable when one stops to think about winning, losing, taking advantage, impressing, or disregarding the opponent. When the mind stops, even for a single instant, the body freezes, and fluid movement is lost… (p.8). The egoless self is open, flexible, supple, fluid, and dynamic in body, mind, and spirit. Being egoless, the self identifies with all things and all people, seeing them not from its self-centered perspective, but from their own respective centers… the ability to see all existence from a non-self-centered perspective… (is)… its highest expression (and) none other than compassion. Such a way of thinking is the essence of all the martial and cultural Ways in the Japanese tradition. Aikido is a modern formulation of this essence, perfected by the genius of Master Ueshiba Morihei. Aikido, being a form of traditional martial art, realizes this universal (principle) through rigorous training of the body. Ultimately, physical, psychological, and spiritual mastery are one and the same. (p.9) (This is why a dojo is a)…place of enlightenment…the place where the ego self undergoes transformation into the egoless self."(p.10) (8)

From Taitetsu Unno (Writer of the preface to "The Spirit of Aikido")

3girls
11-30-2005, 07:47 AM
First thanks to Brian and Jorge for helping me. I posted this as my thoughts because these are things that I have struggled with since beginning aikido. I posted here because of the experienced practitoners within this fourm. My intent was not to create conflict instead expose/bare to you people my thoughts in search of answers/ understanding for these questions. Is it not what these forums are for? So I ask You all help me to understand.

Thanks Bk
jnn20:29

Jorge Garcia
11-30-2005, 09:19 AM
Thanks for your post. I know that folks on the forum don't mind answering sincere questions. I think that understanding some things can change a persons perspective a lot. They did mine. I recommend looking at the introduction to Best Aikido as well. I read at that often to think about Doshu's explanation of budo.
Best wishes,

Chuck Clark
11-30-2005, 09:42 AM
Another take on the question about "competition" is located here,
Roger Alexander's article (http://www.jiyushinkai.org/competition.html)

I think it's also worth looking into the discussions concerning the quotes of Morihei Ueshiba relating to the idea of "competition" in aikido practice. Look for comments by Professor Peter Goldsbury, Jun Akiyama, Chris Li, and others concerning these comments in the original Japanese. These discussions can be found here on AikiWeb.

I am not in favor of sport or tournament style activities (kyogi and shiai) in budo training, however the correct understanding of competition and how it should be managed in training is very important.

odudog
11-30-2005, 10:04 AM
Hey Mike, I agree that it has tradition and I feel tradition is important and it is important to remember it as such. IMHO I ask you as an attack is it the most effective attack to use? I admit that in aikido I am just and infant barely able to crawl but that does not mean I have not trained in other martial arts. From tori's stand point it is easy to work with leave ample time to prepare and anytime uke is ballistic tori's job is made easier. However, would not a uke that is closer to you, more precise with there attack yet still has intent to strike and then be dangerous after the initial attack be better?

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29


We are learning to protect ourselves from several maai. Uke is not always going to right in your face when he/she attacks. If you were to actually let someone get that close to you before he/she attacks and you know something is going to jump off then you made a very big mistake. Not all the knuckle heads out there are going to wait until they are close before they show their true intentions. Just think about it, two guys get into a yelling match at a distance. One of them decides to take it a step further and charges. Again, if you have seen a UFC match. You will have seen at least several times that one guy will rush over to the other side of the octagon in hopes of getting really close. Aren't these the same as the 3 tatami mat Banzai charge?

CNYMike
11-30-2005, 11:33 PM
..... The most common definition of Aikido is as a gentle harmonious noncompetitive spiritual art. This lack of competitive aikibudo is one reason most budo practitioners believe aikido is only for show. Now when I use the statement competitive aikibudo, I am not referring to the many trophies and medals, which can be won through tournaments. I am referring to the natural instinctive competition brought on by a combat. The concept of one individual being attacked by another individual (or individuals) on the mat with the willingness to engage honestly and freely regardless rank or the outcome; willing to lose yet striving to win at the same time. In all other budo system this competitive combat exists; karate, jkd, kenpo, judo ECT. In arts such as karate when sparring with the sensei or kohai there exists the understanding between you and your training partner that he/she expects you to try and defeat him/her and vice versa. This is competitive combat, even with the pads for protection there exists a do or die mentality. ......

Our dojos must have been looking at differently because one of my senseis approached jiyu kumite as "just another drill." He yelled at us to keep it light, and drove home the idea of targeting the chest only by repeating the story about how he almost lost a student who got kicked in the throat by someone who didn't follow directions. Lost as in "he almost died."

My first karate sensei outlined three attitudes in karate:

Attitude 1: Purely defensive. You block or parry without counterattacking.

Attitude 2: Give and take. You trade attacks and block each other. This is where jiyu kumite lives (or should live).

Attitude 3: You go after the person, totally offensive, to take him out.

My Kali instructor -- who, BTW, has an instructorship in Jun Fan/JKD -- has also introduced us to sparring, and has emphasized that we are supposed to do it WITHOUT trying to "win." The goal is for sparring to feel no different than any other type of partner training, the only difference being that it's totally random. But it's easier said than done, and he's been shepherding us through levels of "practice sparring" to get to that point. I don't think anyone except for one of the seniors is there, and even then, the gentleman in question has been there for a while.

His goal is to have us "play" when we spar, as in "play to learn." Guro Dan Inosanto says, "Whatever drill you do, make a game of it." That way you take the pressure off and it's easier to learn. He also cites Thai Boxer, who manage to spar all day in a hot and humid climate by going slower than full tilt. Don't think it pays off? Hop in the ring with one of those guys.

So from where I sit, sparring ISN'T supposed to be "competitive" on any level. If you're dojo did it that way, that's fine, but that's not the direction any of my instructors have tried to steer it.


.... Another reason aikido suffers is its own feudal nature, the samurai class. At the center exists the great leader surrounding himself/herself with his or her disciples. These disciples right or wrong do not question the effectiveness, neither do they test the theory of what they are taught nor are they encouraged to due so. Why? Is it fear, fear of not being a part of the group? Or fear of being excluded from learning the hidden secrets that only the sensei holds? .....

Because it would be disrespectful, period.

Asian cultures have place greater value on respect than ours seems to, I'm sorry to say. Part of that is that you give people the respect they're due, and learn what they have to teach you. This is true of many Asian cultures, not just the Japanese; in the Indonesian system I've been learning, respect is called "hormat" and challenging Serak in the manner of you describe could be construed as breaking hormat. And since hormat applies to everyone, not just your sensiors in Serak, it's the lense I view Aikido from. So it's been disconcerting to come here and see posts by people who think they can't be respectful because they're not Asian. That's your business, but I can name some non-Asian martial artists who won't train with people whom they consider disrespectful. And they have instructorships in JKD.

Between those two points, as far as I'm concerned, the rest of your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Mike

CNYMike
11-30-2005, 11:43 PM
Secondly why is competition bad? I am not advocating tournament aikido. So why is it shunned other than the founder did not want his art to be competitive.

That's why.

I talked abou this with my Kali instructor one time (and anyone from my dojo, I'm going to tell you how to win an argument that you may never have anyway). Guro Andy Astle is a big advocate of sparring. He can talk your ear off for a million years on the advantages of doing it. His practice sparring regime has helped me learn to like sparring. Yet he also agreed with me that if your instructors and seniors in an art tell you not to spar, you don't spar. He takes respect very seriously, and going against not just your sensei but everyone in your lineage all the way back to O Sensei would be disrespectful.

(So that's how you win the argument, guys: "That's interesting, Andy, but my insturctors don't want me to do that." The end.)

As I noted in another post, there are people in the martial arts who want nothing to do with rei/hormat/resepct, who don't care for the cultural side, any of that. That's their business. But when O Sensei gives rei such a central part in Aikido, you want to think twcie before going against him.

CNYMike
11-30-2005, 11:49 PM
.... We used to have guest instructors from other styles come to our karate dojo to teach .....

My karate dojo did that a few times, though. Not for a while, though.


.... how often do you see that in aikido other than a seminar but they are generally people from the same system .....

Common in the AIkido dojos I go to, but not really a bad thing. And any group can be prone to "group think." I've been to a whole bunch of seminars with Guro Dan Inosanto, and I can't remember the last time someone at one of them promoted Shotokan; it's all from the JKD/FMA/Thai Boxing/grappling/SE Asian family. There's a similar clustering around Aikido, a family of Aikido, Kenjutusu, Kendo, and so forth. It happens.

Nick Simpson
12-01-2005, 02:29 AM
Good posts Brian and Co, I'll come back to this because it's too early in the morning for me to write a eloquent response. And talk of bullet's, trajectory and intent is way over my head for another couple of hours ;)

3girls
12-01-2005, 11:44 AM
Hey Jorge,

"The training and discipline common to all the Ways, martial or cultural, consist of three levels of mastery: physical, psychological and spiritual. On the physical level of mastery of form (kata) is the crux of training. The teacher provides a model form, the student observes carefully and repeats it countless times until he has completely internalized the form... In the ultimate mastery of form the student is released from adherence to form. (p.7) …the internal psychological changes (are) taking place from the very beginning. The tedious, repetitious and monotonous learning routine tests the student's commitment and willpower, but it reduces stubbornness, curbs willfulness, and eliminates bad habits of body and mind. In the process…real strength, character and potential begin to emerge. (p.8)

This I understand no problems here

In every martial and cultural art, free expression of self is blocked by one's own ego. (Faced with an opponent) if an opening does occur, it is created by one's ego. One becomes vulnerable when one stops to think about winning, losing, taking advantage, impressing, or disregarding the opponent. When the mind stops, even for a single instant, the body freezes, and fluid movement is lost… (p.8). The egoless self is open, flexible, supple, fluid, and dynamic in body, mind, and spirit. Being egoless, the self identifies with all things and all people, seeing them not from its self-centered perspective, but from their own respective centers… the ability to see all existence from a non-self-centered perspective… (is)… its highest expression (and) none other than compassion. Such a way of thinking is the essence of all the martial and cultural Ways in the Japanese tradition. Aikido is a modern formulation of this essence, perfected by the genius of Master Ueshiba Morihei. Aikido, being a form of traditional martial art, realizes this universal (principle) through rigorous training of the body. Ultimately, physical, psychological, and spiritual mastery are one and the same. (p.9) (This is why a dojo is a)…place of enlightenment…the place where the ego self undergoes transformation into the egoless self."(p.10) (8)

From Taitetsu Unno (Writer of the preface to "The Spirit of Aikido")[/QUOTE]

This you must help me with please

Thanks
Bk
jhn20:29

3girls
12-01-2005, 11:49 AM
Another take on the question about "competition" is located here,
Roger Alexander's article (http://www.jiyushinkai.org/competition.html)

I think it's also worth looking into the discussions concerning the quotes of Morihei Ueshiba relating to the idea of "competition" in aikido practice. Look for comments by Professor Peter Goldsbury, Jun Akiyama, Chris Li, and others concerning these comments in the original Japanese. These discussions can be found here on AikiWeb.

I am not in favor of sport or tournament style activities (kyogi and shiai) in budo training, however the correct understanding of competition and how it should be managed in training is very important.


Hey Sensei Thanks excellent article, and like most people I am using the wrong connitation. I also looked up and found this post as well http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90
minus one an excellent post, especially numbers 29,31, and (43(deffinately a fine line and unfortunately one I have crossed to many times in my life. A side of me I have tried to put to my heel))

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

3girls
12-01-2005, 11:54 AM
[Mike Braxton]We are learning to protect ourselves from several maai.

Hey Mike, This is very true

Uke is not always going to right in your face when he/she attacks. If you were to actually let someone get that close to you before he/she attacks and you know something is going to jump off then you made a very big mistake.

I agree if uke is inside of toimai I should be executing already

Not all the knuckle heads out there are going to wait until they are close before they show their true intentions. Just think about it, two guys get into a yelling match at a distance. One of them decides to take it a step further and charges. Again, if you have seen a UFC match. You will have seen at least several times that one guy will rush over to the other side of the octagon in hopes of getting really close. Aren't these the same as the 3 tatami mat Banzai charge?[/QUOTE]

Most deffinate, I never said it was not an attack nor did I say it was stupid. To my eye I see a one punch attack not a combination happening, the latter to me is more dangerous for tori. I would prefer the 3 tatami attack believe me especially at my level ;)

Thanks
BK\
Jhn 20:29

3girls
12-01-2005, 12:09 PM
Our dojos must have been looking at differently because one of my senseis approached jiyu kumite as "just another drill." He yelled at us to keep it light, and drove home the idea of targeting the chest only by repeating the story about how he almost lost a student who got kicked in the throat by someone who didn't follow directions. Lost as in "he almost died."

My first karate sensei outlined three attitudes in karate:

Attitude 1: Purely defensive. You block or parry without counterattacking.

Attitude 2: Give and take. You trade attacks and block each other. This is where jiyu kumite lives (or should live).

Attitude 3: You go after the person, totally offensive, to take him out.

My karate instructor was a bit more aggressive, A frequent qoute he used was "Do unto others before they do it to you." I do not agree with this statement anymore nor have I for a long time. As for sparring it was both light and hard depending, point fighting was alway light, free sparing tended to get hard quick. Every so often we would as a group go to Mike Hallabaugh's dojo in town and get pounded hard :hypno: And it was very combative(used appropriately) and I embraced it I had no choice at a young age I had to learn to block my dads right.

Thanks
BK
Jhn20:29




Because it would be disrespectful, period.

Asian cultures have place greater value on respect than ours seems to, I'm sorry to say. Part of that is that you give people the respect they're due, and learn what they have to teach you. This is true of many Asian cultures, not just the Japanese; in the Indonesian system I've been learning, respect is called "hormat" and challenging Serak in the manner of you describe could be construed as breaking hormat. And since hormat applies to everyone, not just your sensiors in Serak, it's the lense I view Aikido from. So it's been disconcerting to come here and see posts by people who think they can't be respectful because they're not Asian. That's your business, but I can name some non-Asian martial artists who won't train with people whom they consider disrespectful. And they have instructorships in JKD.

Between those two points, as far as I'm concerned, the rest of your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Mike

First of all I was raised to be very respectfull, but I agree as a nation we are moving away from that. To question someone is not disrespectfull, its not the question but the heart and mind of the person asking the question. What you are really talking about is ego, and having worked with doctors for over 20yrs I understand ego very well as theirs can be very fragile. Had Osensei not questioned what he had learned there would be no aikido today. I have never met any of the fine people within these boards yet I have nothing but respect for them, These thoughts that I have had that has brought on these question is not from disrespect but desire to learn. When I first saw aikido I knew that was what I saw in my mind martial arts to be and I wanted to do.

CNYMike
12-01-2005, 09:36 PM
My karate instructor was a bit more aggressive, A frequent qoute he used was "Do unto others before they do it to you." I do not agree with this statement anymore nor have I for a long time. As for sparring it was both light and hard depending, point fighting was alway light, free sparing tended to get hard quick. Every so often we would as a group go to Mike Hallabaugh's dojo in town and get pounded hard :hypno: And it was very combative(used appropriately) and I embraced it I had no choice at a young age I had to learn to block my dads right.

Thanks
BK
Jhn20:29

Right, so if you look at sparring that way, and assume that is the way it has to be, then yes, your argument makes sense. But if you look at sparring as less do-or-die, more a form of training, then no, it doesn't. And as you've noticed by now, there's variation all over the map.




..... To question someone is not disrespectfull, its not the question but the heart and mind of the person asking the question .....

Let me clarify: In this context, being respectufl as a martial arts student means aborbing and learning what your teacher has to teach you. Yes, there is a point where you can experiment, have your own opinions, and so forth, but that's LATER, somewhere above shodan or its equivelant. But probably not down in the lower ranks.


Had Osensei not questioned what he had learned there would be no aikido today.

Maybe, but I doubt he did it right at the start of his martial arts career. More likely he kept his mouth shut and did what his sensei told him to do. And he was pretty strict himself: Even if you met his entrance requirements of having two trustworthy sponsors he knew personally and martial arts experience, if you behaved badly when he interviewed you, you were out.

So when someone goes to a dojo to learn Aikido, they should make it their business to learn Aikido, not pick every little thing apart, especially when they're nowhere near completing that first step of reaching shodan.

Jorge Garcia
12-02-2005, 03:53 AM
This you must help me with please

Thanks
Bk
jhn20:29[/QUOTE]

This is one where you should just read the actual book, the Spirit of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. It explains in some detail what he believes that Aikido is and does for the practitioner. Doshu's introductions to Best Aikido are also excellent explanations as well. I recommend them to you.

crbateman
12-02-2005, 08:42 AM
So when someone goes to a dojo to learn Aikido, they should make it their business to learn Aikido, not pick every little thing apart, especially when they're nowhere near completing that first step of reaching shodan.
A valid point, but it must also be said that when you go lookin' for Aikido, sometimes what you find is not exactly that (assuming you've enough experience to know the difference). If what you are being taught does not seem valid, you should probably walk, rather than seek corrections. Continuing in that place usually does not improve things, as your skeptical attitude will almost always affect those around you, which is not fair to them. Being critical of the instruction is both impolite and hopeless.

CNYMike
12-02-2005, 10:41 AM
A valid point, but it must also be said that when you go lookin' for Aikido, sometimes what you find is not exactly that (assuming you've enough experience to know the difference). If what you are being taught does not seem valid, you should probably walk .....

Oh, I'm not saying you shouldn't vote with your feet. That's one thing. But if you vote to stay -- and it doesn't matter what art -- you should make it your business to learn. There's a time when you can branch out, but that's not it. IMHO, anyway.

3girls
12-02-2005, 11:06 AM
This you must help me with please

Thanks
Bk
jhn20:29

This is one where you should just read the actual book, the Spirit of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. It explains in some detail what he believes that Aikido is and does for the practitioner. Doshu's introductions to Best Aikido are also excellent explanations as well. I recommend them to you.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Jorge I will pick one up this weekend. If you do not mind if I have questions regarding may I pm you? EIther way thanks for all your help. :cool:

Thanks
BK
jnh20:29

3girls
12-02-2005, 11:26 AM
Hey Michael G and Clark B

Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumption. :) I believe you are judging me unfairly given that you do not know me, If I could change the title of my post to My Deep Question on My thoughts on aikido I would(maybe Jun you could help with that) Unfortunately I cannot. As I have said my Intent was neither to cause conflict, nor prove whether I am right or wrong this was not meant to be an argument :D (adding to convey intent) My interest to to understand to say that I am being critical and impolite or nit picking is an unfair judgment. :confused: If you wish to attack me then continue if you wish to help I accept graciously, the choice is yours to make.

I question the things I see so I can better understand why it is done this way. Leaning is a multifaceted thing, we all learn through sight, sound, touch, verbal instruction. I learn best through visual stimulus I can copy anything, that said you lose the intricate detail that my be to quick for the eye so you use verbal communication to convey the missing part. You ask why. Why do they attack differently? Why is that technique different? Why does uke do that when I do this? Icould go on and on. I ask not to be disrespectful but to understand so I can learn. You see in my mind I see aikido even through my body may not be able to do what I see but because I give life to it my minds eye so I will give life to it with my physical aikido one day. The mind can understand the concept it is the physical body that lags behind. So by understanding the intricate detail of how and why things are done for me is essential.

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

Jorge Garcia
12-02-2005, 01:05 PM
This is one where you should just read the actual book, the Spirit of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. It explains in some detail what he believes that Aikido is and does for the practitioner. Doshu's introductions to Best Aikido are also excellent explanations as well. I recommend them to you.

Thanks Jorge I will pick one up this weekend. If you do not mind if I have questions regarding may I pm you? EIther way thanks for all your help. :cool:

Thanks
BK
jnh20:29[/QUOTE]


You're welcome to pm me anytime.

ikkitosennomusha
12-02-2005, 01:53 PM
"Martial Art". What does this mean? What does "Martial imply"? Give this some thought.

Is Karate a "Martial" art? Some may say yes. Ok, if this is your stand, what is karate "Martial" in relation to? Martial can be defined in various ways and taken in various context. For example, Martial can mean the following: military or warlike, superior, etc..

Karate is a classical art and in my opinion, karate is only "Martial/superior" to the common layman. I reason this because most other arts of "Martial Ways" fall into a category of being more complex and diverse such as kung fu, jujitsu, aiki jujisu, aikido, etc.

While some arts are a culmination of differnt methodologies becaue they characterize resemblence of arts predeveloped, they stand unique and individual becuase of their ideology and principles. This is where aikido comes in.

Like many of you, I had humble beginings in several differnt brands of karate such as shodokhan, american free style, etc. etc. and have even dabled into ninjitsu which after years of fascination, discovered it was a flop.

Im my opinion, Aikido is the most effective art thus truely deserving of the title "Martial". In my experience, it is vastly superior to the likes of karate, BJJ, judo, etc. It agrees with me mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally.

There is no such thing as bad aikido, there is only a possibility of a bad aikidoka. When one trains aikido wtih sincereity and shugyo, one becomes a single flesh with philosophies cultivated through hard work and meditation. Through this, a certain level of understanding occurs and you no longer see things the way you used to. You preconcieve uke's movement, things move in slow motion and you have a feeling of ample time to make any move you want, etc etc.

When you have this, you have the harmony between heaven and earth O-sensei talked about. Your mind and body is linked to the very environment in which you are standing and you can use the force of nature to champion the foe and become the victor no matter what life's situation is. The ability to conduct your life force and master your environment is in essence, "Martial".

3girls
12-03-2005, 08:25 AM
[
You're welcome to pm me anytime.[/QUOTE]

Much appreciated Jorge!

Thanks
BK
Jhn20:29

CNYMike
12-03-2005, 05:08 PM
..... I question the things I see so I can better understand why it is done this way ..... I ask not to be disrespectful but to understand so I can learn ....

Well, I didn't mean to say that you, personally, were being disrespectful, but that the understanding of respect in Asian countries affects the transmission of Asian martial arts from generation to generation. And it also reflects my Kali instructor's attiude, which is understandable as I've know him longer than Aikido sensei.

As for why Aikido is the way it is, well, as you've noticed by now, there are a lot of books on it; your sensei should also be a resource in that regard. Just showing up and practicing is also a good way to learn, too. :p But as to things like, "Why don't they question what they are taught? Why don't they look at other syllabi?" That's where the respect issue comes in. I'm all for cross-training, but I'm also all for keeping the arts separate -- in Kali class, do Kali; in Aikdio, do Aikido, and so forth. As I said, the whole point of going to Aikido class is -- or should be -- to learn what your Aikido sensei has to teach! Yeah, you can talk to him after class; I once told him about an Inodnesian version of Shiho-nage after he introduced it by saying it pops up in arts all over the world. But the whole point of my being there is for me to learn from him.

You also get more bang for your buck that way: I've found that when I put my own thinking on the back burner and focus on what I'm doing in that class, I get more out of it, and my techniques look better. Sometimes it's difficult, especially when some blatant similarites leap out at you. But it can be done.

Hope that clears things up, or at least takes it from murky to foggy.

crbateman
12-03-2005, 05:36 PM
Hey Michael G and Clark B

Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumption. :) I believe you are judging me unfairly given that you do not know me, If I could change the title of my post to My Deep Question on My thoughts on aikido I would(maybe Jun you could help with that) Unfortunately I cannot. As I have said my Intent was neither to cause conflict, nor prove whether I am right or wrong this was not meant to be an argument :D (adding to convey intent) My interest to to understand to say that I am being critical and impolite or nit picking is an unfair judgment. :confused: If you wish to attack me then continue if you wish to help I accept graciously, the choice is yours to make. Brian, I think if you go back and re-read my posts with an objective POV, you will see that I have neither judged nor attacked anybody, but have spoken in generalities. IN GENERAL, it is impolite and usually fruitless to criticize one's instructor in an open forum such as this, as opposed to discussing the matter privately with that individual. This is where, IMHO, the distinction lies between "questioning" and "criticizing". When it's put it out there for all to see, people are going to respond with their opinions. If those opinions are perceived as personal attacks, then the problem is in the perception. The opinions themselves (mine, anyway) are intended to do GOOD, NOT HARM. Please take them that way. Be well.

3girls
12-04-2005, 09:46 AM
Hey Craig and Mike, Fair enough, no harm :cool: like I said it is hard to convey meaning without expression :D But I am not nor have I been criticizing my sensei, he has absolutely nothing to do with this post at all, I apologize if I gave you that perception but that is just not the case. Like you said the problem is in perception so if you perceive this forum post to be about me criticizing my sensei or any sensei you are completely off base. If you were to read through all of my posts not once have I mentioned my system or sensei in a negative light or any system for that matter. All I am searching for is discussion and informantion. Also I have not been negative with any of my posts on the contrary I have said multiple times my intent was not to do that. However, if that were the case I would address those issues with him not with you or anyone else. :)

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

3girls
12-04-2005, 12:43 PM
I would have just edited my previous post but I am unable to for some reason, but I did not mention this but since it was brought up I also emaild my sensei the first post as well. Since it was irrelevent to the subject I did not mention it.

Thanks
Bk
jhn20:29

CNYMike
12-05-2005, 12:26 AM
I would have just edited my previous post but I am unable to for some reason ....

Aikiweb won't let you edit something after 15 minutes. I don't know why that is, but it is.

CNYMike
12-05-2005, 12:35 AM
..... If you were to read through all of my posts not once have I mentioned my system or sensei in a negative light or any system for that matter. All I am searching for is discussion and informantion. Also I have not been negative with any of my posts on the contrary I have said multiple times my intent was not to do that. However, if that were the case I would address those issues with him not with you or anyone else. :)

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

I went back to the first post, Brian, and unfortunately, you had a couple of strong statements in it. A couple of excerpts:

I believe that the generally accepted ideology of aikido is what sets it up for its own demise.


And:

the art that I love suffers from its own idolized spirituality

Referring to Aikido being set of its "demise" and "suffering" doesn't come across as I want information. It comes across as saying flat out that the way things are done are wrong.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; I certainly have mine. But saying something provacative is going to have its effects, whether you wanted to cause them or not.

3girls
12-05-2005, 07:54 AM
I went back to the first post, Brian, and unfortunately, you had a couple of strong statements in it. A couple of excerpts:



And:



Referring to Aikido being set of its "demise" and "suffering" doesn't come across as I want information. It comes across as saying flat out that the way things are done are wrong.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; I certainly have mine. But saying something provacative is going to have its effects, whether you wanted to cause them or not.

I hear what you are saying I guess I just do not get as easily as offended as others. There I just my thoughts I did not say they were right or wrong a perception if you will. Even when I felt I was being flammed I was not upset about it truth be told. Why is it that people are so quick to be offended? Why cant we have open dialogue with hate or anger? For example when people attack me for being christian I dont get mad or upset thats their choice, the same goes for what we are talking about now. if your offended by what I said I truely appologize. All i ask is maybe we should all be more understanding and less quick to jump to preconcieved notions without first understanding. The benefit of the doubt. :)

Thanks BK
jhn20:29

Ben Joiner
12-05-2005, 08:32 AM
Hi Bryan,

I am also 3rd Kyu and like yourself have found myself trying hard not to ask too many of the kind of questions you have posed above. I too trained in another art previously - Kickboxing - where the majority of the learning, after the basics, took place during the sparring. I think there are a few of us out there who reach the point in our aikido where we begin to feel that we aren't quite the clunky robots that we may have been when first starting ;) I know I was. Maybe the point at which, when we were studying other arts, things began to' liven up' and questions about effectiveness began to be answered 'on the mat' . Naturally our inclination is to bring this model to our Aikido practise.

As I'm coming to understand it, the problem with doing this is that we are simply not ready to progress to the next stage yet. Maybe stages is not the correct term. It seems to me that you never stop learning the basics in Aikido. I, as you seem to, have difficulty taking things on board which don't seem to make sense/ fit into the model I have so far constructed of what Aikido is to me. It can be frustrating when so many of my questions, which seem very valid to me, are met with slightly exasperated polite explanation from those to whom it appears the answers are glaringly obvious. :blush:

I do remember feeling like this before however, when I was growing up. I think the best advice I've had along these lines is also the most frustrating :D : Relax, enjoy the training don't be afraid to ask question but be prepared to accept the answers or find somewhere else to train where you prefer the answers. Just to emphasise my point, I feel like I'm right there with you on all the points you have raised in this thread. I'm just gonna try real hard to put them to one side until I've reached shodan when perhaps I will have answered at least some of them already. :confused: :D

Ben

3girls
12-05-2005, 03:03 PM
Hi Bryan,

I am also 3rd Kyu and like yourself have found myself trying hard not to ask too many of the kind of questions you have posed above. I too trained in another art previously - Kickboxing - where the majority of the learning, after the basics, took place during the sparring. I think there are a few of us out there who reach the point in our aikido where we begin to feel that we aren't quite the clunky robots that we may have been when first starting ;) I know I was. Maybe the point at which, when we were studying other arts, things began to' liven up' and questions about effectiveness began to be answered 'on the mat' . Naturally our inclination is to bring this model to our Aikido practise.

As I'm coming to understand it, the problem with doing this is that we are simply not ready to progress to the next stage yet. Maybe stages is not the correct term. It seems to me that you never stop learning the basics in Aikido. I, as you seem to, have difficulty taking things on board which don't seem to make sense/ fit into the model I have so far constructed of what Aikido is to me. It can be frustrating when so many of my questions, which seem very valid to me, are met with slightly exasperated polite explanation from those to whom it appears the answers are glaringly obvious. :blush:

I do remember feeling like this before however, when I was growing up. I think the best advice I've had along these lines is also the most frustrating :D : Relax, enjoy the training don't be afraid to ask question but be prepared to accept the answers or find somewhere else to train where you prefer the answers. Just to emphasise my point, I feel like I'm right there with you on all the points you have raised in this thread. I'm just gonna try real hard to put them to one side until I've reached shodan when perhaps I will have answered at least some of them already. :confused: :D

Ben

Ben Thanks for the post it is VERY much appreciated. In reading some and thinking a great deal on many of the posts I agree that most of this is applicable later on (shodan etc) and like you the best thing is to just keep training, . I look a competition differently now, I also see there is puropose for all things we just may not see it yet but it is there.

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

3girls
12-05-2005, 03:16 PM
Jorge will probably appreciate this since he is an educator if i remember correctly but I was always the kid in the back of the class that never asked a question...... ever :D Irony....funny

CNYMike
12-06-2005, 12:47 AM
....Why is it that people are so quick to be offended? ....

I think it is more important to recognize that it can happen instead of wondering at why it does, and learn to be careful about what you say and how you say it.

..... if your offended by what I said I truely appologize ....

Thanks, but I wasn't offended. I've been doing karate in particular and martial arts in general for twenty years now (where has the time gone?), and your description of sparring didn't square with how I was taught it, but the reason for that is how you were taught it. But I wasn't offended. When someone spouts off on an area I know something about, I speak up.