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RDReavis
11-27-2005, 11:20 PM
Okay, so I've got a friend that knows BJJ, which is sometimes *erm* used *erm* against me and my friends at unexpected moments :dead: . I will be starting aikido very soon, but regardless, how does it fair against BJJ (I wouldn't use it against BJJ as described above, but I would like to know none-the-less)?

Many thanks,
Rick

Oh yes, I don't necessarily want to know the stats of when I would encounter a BJJ-ist and have to use aikido against it, but I would like to know the comparison of both, since Aikido was based off of Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu.

eyrie
11-27-2005, 11:34 PM
{sigh}

Learn how to fight before you pick a fight.

RDReavis
11-27-2005, 11:40 PM
I didn't say anything about picking fights or getting in fights; I am wondering how aikido does against BJJ. If I wanted to really kick his arse, I would join BJJ or some other, possibly more violent martial art. He is friendly-fighting, if that makes any sense...joke fighting, if that is any clearer.

Sorry for any confusion.
Richard

PeterR
11-28-2005, 12:01 AM
You know if I had a friend doing a martial art and I was looking for something to train in - I would go to the friend's dojo.

Extra help, extra company, no stranger in a strange land.

Why do you want to start Aikido?

Devon Natario
11-28-2005, 12:12 AM
I will first answer your question:
Aikido vs BJJ

Aikido has good throws. Aikido has good wrist techniques which can be used for submission. Aikido has the focus of Ki which makes your stamina everlasting because you learn to relax. Aikido has good footwork. Aikido has good techniques against multiple people. Aikido is it's own art.

BJJ has good tehcniques on the ground. BJJ has good fighting takedowns and throws. BJJ has great submissions techniques with and without Gi. BJJ can not be compared to in groundfighting.
BJJ uses competition as a way of improving, which leads to someone becoming great at beating people that fight back hard.

Both arts have their own greatness. They both have weaknesses as well.

I was beating Shodans in Aikido and Isshin Ryu Karate when I was an Orange Belt in Jujitsu, but I was able to take them down and make it my fight.

BJJ beats Aikido because Aikido usually includes very little groundfighting, however, this does not mean it can't be trained. If you train your Aikido more on the ground, you will be able to hold your own. Just learn how to defend yourself.

You must understand though, to beat someone in their game, you must become better in their game. So if you wish to be better than him at groundfighting, then do Judo or BJJ. Aikido will add to that if you do both.

RDReavis
11-28-2005, 12:26 AM
Why do you want to start Aikido?

Well, I started with TKD, which I didn't take a liking to, but I saw Aikido and the things that some of the sensei's (multiple sensei?) could do. I looked at it different from other martial arts because it's not like "I can kick your @$$", "No, I can kick yours; I know kung-fu"...or something stupid like that. There was no bragging and it looked quite effective. Which brings me to my next point: I'm looking for something that is fun and different - something that will last a lifetime. Overall, there is nearly no competitive nature - it's a martial art that doesn't focus on attacking as much as defending and gives a way to end conflicts without (many) flying fists of doom, especially from the nage (I think that's what you call the defender).

----------

I just read Devon's post:
So what is it that allows BJJ to advance on an aikidoka? Is there not an attack that we can defend coming from somebody trained in BJJ? Is there a way to "bring them into the game of Aikido" instead of the opposite? Regardless, I'm still taking Aikido :D

Thanks!

eyrie
11-28-2005, 12:45 AM
If I had a dollar everytime someone asks the "Aikido vs [insert MA]" question...

It's the artist not the art. As long as you're playing by someone's else's rules, you'll lose.

Oh, and I'd do what Peter Rehse said too.

Ulises Garcia
11-28-2005, 12:46 AM
Hello Richard,

There is a thread in the General Forum that talks about something very similar to what you are addressing. Try here. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9339)

-U-

ian
11-28-2005, 09:26 AM
All martial arts have at their core certain principles - usually distance, timing and relaxation. BJJ is no different. Martial arts cannot be directly compared in terms of effectiveness - a martial art is a 'training method' not really a set of techniques. BJJ tends to focus on groundwork and thus is not really self-defenced based (if a person is on the floor in a fight it is easy for a 3rd person to kill either participant with repeated kicks to the temple). Aikido tends to stress instantaneous reaction, timing and blending. If you want to be a good martial artist get involved with what appeals to you at the time and spend at least 10 years training sincerely. There is no 'magic' in martial arts or better tehcniques - it's just regular, sincere, training.

Devon Natario
11-28-2005, 09:27 AM
Rich,
Yeah, we have Kaiten Nage which is similar to a wrestling technique that I learned in wrestling. We have Koshi Nage which is a hip throw, etc. We have defenses, but they are not as good as the plain ole' sprawl.

The truth is, I personally never trained in Aikido on the ground in Aikido. I knew BJJ first, then brought Aikido to my ground game. It works wonders on the ground, but in my opinion you need to know how to fight from the ground first, not vice versa in order to use it there.

I am one that likes to know every aspect of fighting.

Aikido added a lot of good things to my fighting game. I can not take away from it.

If you want a BJJ guy to fight your fight, stay away from them, so not let them shoot in for their single leg takedown. But since this is what they do, he will not stay in your game.

In my opinion, you have to learn to groundfight. Anyone that wants to bring the fight to the ground, will, and without knowing it, you leave yourself in a place thats unfamiliar and it makes it hard to win.

roosvelt
11-28-2005, 09:35 AM
Try systema first if you can find one.

Dirk Hanss
11-28-2005, 10:11 AM
I was beating Shodans in Aikido and Isshin Ryu Karate when I was an Orange Belt in Jujitsu, but I was able to take them down and make it my fight.

Devon,
I could beat Karate Shodan while just being Karate blue belt. What does that mean? Karate has some advantages compared to Karate?.

You learned BJJ first and the BJJ paradigms are fixed in your brain.

So everything you said is true, while the opposite is not false.

Many, probably most aikidoka are not able to deal with a typical BJJ attack, because they are not training to fight this way. The principle and even the techniques could provide good skills.

There are good (historical andother) reasons, why it is not trained regularily in most aiki-dojo, and the discussion, what you need today in a "real fight" will never end. So if you learned ground fighting beyond suwari waza and you think you need it, take it as your special value and keep it until you feel different.

But most aikido schools will not change anything, unless they want to participate in MMA contests. If your BJJ skills help you learning aikido faster, it is fine. Maybe you can convince some aikidoka to cross train BJJ, maybe I would if I had spare time.

Everything else has been said a hundred times, so there is no use in repeating it again.


Kind regards Dirk

Bronson
11-28-2005, 11:17 AM
Okay, so I've got a friend that knows BJJ, which is sometimes *erm* used *erm* against me and my friends at unexpected moments

How old is he? Sit him down and have an intervention. Tell him, one adult to another, that you don't like it, you don't appreciate it and that if he keeps it up you'll stop hanging around with him.....or "playfully" kick him hard in the nads ;)

Bronson

darin
11-28-2005, 12:32 PM
BJJ!? Looks like doing karma sutra moves on the mat with men. But hey, its the 21st century so if someone is into that kind of stuff... its ok! Hell, you could do bjj on the beach and when the waves come in it will look like that scene from "From here to Eternity". And I heard a lot of these BJJ guys work out... some even have tats! Give my regards to Mr. U. Mountme.


Ok! to be fair to our BJJ brothers we hold (delete hands) wrists in aikido... for half a second.

seank
11-28-2005, 03:31 PM
I have to ask one burning question regarding BJJ (I'm working up the nerve to ask the guys that train at our dojo). Apart from the dry-humping as Darin described, why would you ever take a fight to the ground and roll around in the broken glass and spilt alcohol on the floor of a bar, whilst simultaneously having your opponents mates kick you in the head whilst you roll around?

a) If you've got into a fight chances are you shouldn't have got into a fight
b) If you get into a fight, why automatically assume that you should take it to the ground? The distance and timing you learn in Aikido can be a great help in avoiding sticky situations like this.

Roy Dean
11-28-2005, 03:54 PM
Richard,

It all boils down to training methods and combative ranges. If your friend has already wrestled you to the ground, Aikido is not going to help. There are very specific movements you need to enact in order to escape his dominant positions (mount, sidemount, or having taken the back). In order to use Aikido, you need to be able to thwart his takedown attempts (either through striking, sprawling, or distance). To learn this, you have to do live sparring sessions with wrestlers, Judoka, and other kinds of grapplers, focusing on just the takedown.

It's difficult at first, and you may not have much success, but if you persevere, you'll get the hang of it and be able to then DICTATE the range of engagment.

It's one thing to know the movements and techniques, it's another thing altogether putting those movements and techniques up against a live opponent who can fully resist. You can train hard, and you can train smart- you don't have to get injured or injure your training partners to have realistic training.

This is my perspective, based on my experiences. I went from Aikido to BJJ, and I honestly feel that my Aikido is much better because of the incorporation of randori in the BJJ training method.

Finally, although BJJ players do roll around with other men on the ground, no one has to wear a skirt!

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

Steven
11-28-2005, 05:10 PM
Okay, so I've got a friend that knows BJJ, which is sometimes *erm* used *erm* against me and my friends at unexpected moments

Ah yes ... this is simple. Play his game. Next time he stands in front of you, kick em has hard as you can in the groin. That'll at least make him think twice about jumping you at unexpected moments.

:rolleyes:

RDReavis
11-28-2005, 05:20 PM
Ah, many thanks to all of you. I'm going to see if I could get some examples of BJJ from my friend in my spare time (once I get started in Aikido, of course) so I can begin to get an understanding of what it involves. Then I might get some insight as to how I should act from there. I am signing up, as planned previously, today during one of the sessions at the local dojo, yet I must wait for my gi to come in (I still have to get around to ordering it :)). Oh yes, I must also order a new bokken and jo (I already have a decent tanto, but the others have been worn down a bit by my mother in her days of practice). Bah! So much to do! Well, thank you all for helping me out by answering my ridiculous and brainless question; I feel much more confident.

Many thanks once again,
Richard Reavis
Soon-to-be Aikidoka
Did I say that right? Ai-ki-do-ka? Heh, just wondering :).

And oh yes...might I add that I am still laughing over Darin's wonderful comments concerning BJJ students :)

RDReavis
11-28-2005, 05:22 PM
Ah yes ... this is simple. Play his game. Next time he stands in front of you, kick em has hard as you can in the groin. That'll at least make him think twice about jumping you at unexpected moments.

:rolleyes:

In response to both Steven and Bronson's comments:
Just got your messages. How cruel...but so justified... ;) I'll think of that next time... :D

darin
11-28-2005, 06:30 PM
Forgot about the skirt! Both arts do techniques from a kneeling position too (but in aikdio not without dinner and a movie).

And you have to admit that you can do aikido into your old age... aiagra!

On a "roll" here guys!

Steven Gubkin
11-28-2005, 06:54 PM
Here is my opinion on the matter.
1. To the people making fun of BJJ because "it looks like gay sex lol!!!11!1", try growing up. "OMG CPR looks kinda like kissing, no way i'd ever practice that on a dood roflmao"

2. No one ever said that being on the ground is the best place to be in a multiple attacker situation. However, the throws that you learn in BJJ will be usefull, and the ground skills will be useful if you get taken down. Also, the only way to get good at takedown defenses is to learn about and practise them with people who are actvely trying to take you down. The takedown defense you learn will be very usefull in any fight, especially if you prefer the stand-up game.

3. To answer your question truthfully, unless you train at a very rare aikido dojo, your pure aikido skills will not be able to compare to your freinds pure BJJ skills. Why? Because it is much easier for a BJJ player to force you to play his game, than it is for you to force the BJJ player to play yours. You will only have a few seconds before he clinches, and goes for the takedown. Your Aikido better be damned good.

4. The BJJ player will be used to using his skills in a full resistance enviroment, possibly with strikes. Most Aikido is taught through Kata, or through non-resistive randori. This means that the average Aikidoka has no idea how to deal with someone else actually trying to attack them with any real conviction. Wrist locks are REALLY hard to apply when someone just pulls their hand back hard. Most of the throws require Uke to follow you around in a way that is not at all intuitive to most people.

5. As far as Aikido being a more peacefull art, I have already started a thread on this. I still beleive that BJJ offers more peaceful resolutions to a fight than Aikido does. Whereas Aikido relies on applying standing joint locks, which can permanently damage someone if the do not have good Ukemi, BJJ always utilizes a pin in combination with a joint lock or choke. Pulling gaurd and going for a triangle is the most peaceful way I can think of ending a fight. You don't have to worry about the other person getting hurt during the takedown, because you cushion them, and the triangle choke will put them safely to sleep. If you try to whip out a shihonage on someone with no training, however, if you do get it to work, you will probably tear the person's shoulder muscles as a result.

In my opinion, Aikido is not at all usefull in a fight. BJJ is. Where Aikido IS useful, is before the fight starts. If someone is pushing you around trying to get you to fight, I can see aot of Aikido techniques working, and stopping the fight before it starts. If someone throws a wild haymaker and tries to knock you out with the first punch, sure you might be able to get off an iriminage and floor the dude. But if the guy has ever watched any boxing, and tries to emulate them in the fight (hands up, jabbing, throwing hooks), even if they haven't ever trained in boxing, your Aikido probably won't work. If the guy is intent on taking the fight to the ground, Aikido probably will not work. BJJ will.

I would really recommend that you try out both the Aikido and the BJJ for a couple of weeks each, and see which one you personally like better. If you have the time train both! They are both good arts, it's just that they are really geared towards totally different things. Aikido is good exercise, can be very beautiful, and has some application to resolving a fight physically before it really starts. BJJ is an excellent way to learn how to fight, and offers some very good, non-violent solutions. It is also great exercse, and can have the same sort of beauty that Aikido does if you have the eye for it.

Really it all depends on why you want to train. Since it seems like you want to be able to pwn your freind, I would suggest BJJ. Or you could take a good striking art, like boxing, Muay Thai, or Kyukushin karate. If you want to own your freind, don't take Aikido. It probably won't work.

Devon Natario
11-28-2005, 07:50 PM
Devon,
I could beat Karate Shodan while just being Karate blue belt. What does that mean? Karate has some advantages compared to Karate?.

You learned BJJ first and the BJJ paradigms are fixed in your brain.

So everything you said is true, while the opposite is not false.

Many, probably most aikidoka are not able to deal with a typical BJJ attack, because they are not training to fight this way. The principle and even the techniques could provide good skills.

There are good (historical andother) reasons, why it is not trained regularily in most aiki-dojo, and the discussion, what you need today in a "real fight" will never end. So if you learned ground fighting beyond suwari waza and you think you need it, take it as your special value and keep it until you feel different.

But most aikido schools will not change anything, unless they want to participate in MMA contests. If your BJJ skills help you learning aikido faster, it is fine. Maybe you can convince some aikidoka to cross train BJJ, maybe I would if I had spare time.

Everything else has been said a hundred times, so there is no use in repeating it again.


Kind regards Dirk
I may not have written it correctly.

The point is that BJJ practitioners can beat people on the ground with very little training, even those that have trained for long periods. He asked if it was useful against BJJ. My answer was to display that Aikido is pretty darn useless against anyone with some ground fighting experience, unless they train in ground fighting.

I am not here trying to convert Aikidoka to cross train, I am only here to give my opinion in which I have learned over my 20+ years of martial arts experience. The entire reason to answer a post is not to start an argument or hurt feelings, but to pass the knowledge on to others. That is what I do. So if I offended you in any way, I am sorry.

Sanshouaikikai
11-28-2005, 08:45 PM
BJJ isn't all that great for the streets unless you get taken down. Aikido is a lot better for those situations that involve stand up. People on the streets aren't amazing groundfighters or anything like that so if you know how to apply your art properly then you shouldn't have a problem. Let's say that if an aikidoka got somehow attacked by some rogue BJJ expert or judoka on the streets or in the battlefield...Aikido would have the upper hand...that is...if it's an aikidoka that knows how to apply his/her art. Remember, Aikido is the preferred martial art among law enforcement agencies throughout the world.

aikigirl10
11-28-2005, 09:37 PM
I think there are 2 different kinds of fights too. Theres fighter against fighter and fighter against attacker. If you want to train to compete against other fighters then aikido is probably not the best art out there. If you are trying to train to protect yourself from attackers on the street who really dont know any specific fighting skills then aikido can come much more in handy. Thats my take on it.

RDReavis
11-28-2005, 11:47 PM
So in a quick decision, if you were to choose from BJJ or Aikido, which would you choose and why? In my situation a surprisingly large amount of people do martial arts in my surroundings. What I'm seeming to hear is that you have to have somebody that doesn't know what they're doing in order to defeat them with Aikido. From the fights I've seen, people are using fast punches and not fully dedicating themselves. It's getting quite late here, and I'm beginning to think irrationally, but I don't even know much about BJJ, so I don't know what I'm up against with either take-down or other forms of fighting. Should this be something I would talk to my local sensei about? I mean should I ask him/her about grappling arts and if he/she has any experience in those specific areas when put up against Aikido? I'm really not sure now... I mean, hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...

Sorry about my ignorance and arrogance. :(
Richard Reavis

PeterR
11-29-2005, 12:15 AM
I mean, hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...
Well all things being equal (physical size, personality and training style) that is a load of wishful thinking. To get good at BJJ requires practice and time in art, same with Aikido.

You run into this again and again especially on the Internet.


I do [insert martial art] which is more [insert typical macho phrase] then [insert second martial art] and therefore I can beat any one from [insert second martial art].


There are some really solid people that could walk both sides of the fence quite easily and once you step outside known rules anything can happen. There are also some less than impressive practitioners in BJJ and Aikido.

I really do think the comparison is meaningless and would - as I said before - go where your friend goes. Martial arts is after all a social endeavor.

Devon Natario
11-29-2005, 12:42 AM
So in a quick decision, if you were to choose from BJJ or Aikido, which would you choose and why? In my situation a surprisingly large amount of people do martial arts in my surroundings. What I'm seeming to hear is that you have to have somebody that doesn't know what they're doing in order to defeat them with Aikido. From the fights I've seen, people are using fast punches and not fully dedicating themselves. It's getting quite late here, and I'm beginning to think irrationally, but I don't even know much about BJJ, so I don't know what I'm up against with either take-down or other forms of fighting. Should this be something I would talk to my local sensei about? I mean should I ask him/her about grappling arts and if he/she has any experience in those specific areas when put up against Aikido? I'm really not sure now... I mean, hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...

Sorry about my ignorance and arrogance. :(
Richard Reavis

Okay, now you have to realize that there are Aikido techniques you can use on the ground. Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Gokyo, etc etc. Aikido is not left to the wayside on the ground. It does have great tehcniques that can be used on the ground. If you work small circle Aikido I am sure they implement finger locks as well which work very well on the ground. These are all techniques that can be used on the ground.

I personally do not think that most Aikidoka have a chance on the ground, for the simple reason that they do not practice that way.

The Shodan in Aikido I was beating when I was an Orange Belt shortly became a great ground fighter. He already had the balance, center, and certain techniques. He only needed to learn positions and how to defend and offend from them. he had to learn certain submissions in order to reverse or get out of them. He had a great head start on most people because he could feel and manipulate energy. He became quite well after a short period.

I am not saying for one minute that Aikido is not useable or ineffective. It is in many, many ways. I have used more Aikido as a Cop than BJJ. The only time I have used BJJ is on the ground.

IF you are fighting in a street fight, it will more than likely end up on the ground. I have seen it too many times to count or name. Fights end up on the ground. What BJJ does is says, "We end up there, so we will learn how to manipulate and become great there." In my opinion you are better off fighting on your feet, it is safer. But that is not the question originally asked. You asked if Aikido can take BJJ. The answer is no, because BJJ can take Aikidoka somewhere where they are not comfortable or aware. BJJ can fight on their feet too, but the concentration is on the ground.

I hope I am explaining this correctly.

Both arts are great, and both offer such a different thing, and both are effective. In my opinion its best to know as much as possible ever aspect of fighting- just in case...............

CNYMike
11-29-2005, 12:53 AM
So in a quick decision, if you were to choose from BJJ or Aikido, which would you choose and why? In my situation a surprisingly large amount of people do martial arts in my surroundings. What I'm seeming to hear is that you have to have somebody that doesn't know what they're doing in order to defeat them with Aikido. From the fights I've seen, people are using fast punches and not fully dedicating themselves. It's getting quite late here, and I'm beginning to think irrationally, but I don't even know much about BJJ, so I don't know what I'm up against with either take-down or other forms of fighting. Should this be something I would talk to my local sensei about? I mean should I ask him/her about grappling arts and if he/she has any experience in those specific areas when put up against Aikido? I'm really not sure now... I mean, hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...

Sorry about my ignorance and arrogance. :(
Richard Reavis

Hi, Richard,

Get some sleep and think rationally. If you want to do Aikido, do Aikido. Stick with the dojo week in, week out, month in, month out, year in, year out, and see what happens. You may figure out how to turn the tables on your BJJ budy, or you may not. What difference does it make? That's not why you looked into it, is it?

How Aikido would fair against BJJ seems to depend on whom you ask. I don't know one way or the other. It's hard to envision some match ups, like this one, but if we assume for the sake of argument that ki exists and we all have it, Aikido's study of ki should be applicable. Maybe. But don't ask me how. WRT to your friend, as you do Aikido, see if your perception of his moves changes over time. Then see if you can remember what he does that screws you up the most. Then try and reverse it when you see/feel it coming. But don't badger your sensei about grappling experience. Just enjoy.

ad_adrian
11-29-2005, 07:10 AM
you guys have it all wrong
when ur like oh i can take this person on
who cares aikido isnt like that
if u want to brag and take someone on go join another martial art, i avoid all fights and scenarios and never say i can take anyone on nor do i want to

RDReavis
11-29-2005, 07:21 AM
Okay, now it's early in the morning, and I am still tired...lol. I have decided that I'm going to ask him eventually about him showing me techniques to I might be able to improve my perception of BJJ, but since it takes a great amount of time to become proficient in aikido, I may not ask for a while. I may even have to cross-train a little...but for now I'm going to stick with aikido because you never know how his technique is in the present day (he took BJJ a few years ago, so I'm not sure he might be a good teacher of technique). Any input?

Thank you,
Richard Reavis

Just read Adrian's post:
"...if u want to brag and take someone on go join another martial art, i avoid all fights and scenarios and never say i can take anyone on nor do i want to"

Well said.

batemanb
11-29-2005, 08:48 AM
So in a quick decision, if you were to choose from BJJ or Aikido, which would you choose and why?


Richard,

You're asking this on an Aikido forum!

Let me think a while, ummmmmm, Ok, Aikido for me ;). Why, because I enjoy it.

In the early days I used to wonder what would happen if I got attacked by a proficient person from (insert any MA here). Over time, it became less important, now I really don't care. My Aikido is precisiely that, my Aikido. It's me that makes it effective, through my practice, if it doesn't work, it's me that didn't do it properly, but the beauty of practice is that I can try agai, and again, and again........The more I practice, the more I realize that comparing arts or worrying which is better is a fruitless task.

You need to stop worrying about it, stop giving excuses for not starting yet and get your backside into a dojo (you don't need a keiko gi from day one, nor a jo or bokken). One of two things will happen, you'll enjoy it, or you won't, at which point you'll practice more, or leave.

I hope you enjoy it and stay with it, maybe one day it will be as good to you as it has been to me.

Regards

Bryan

RDReavis
11-29-2005, 09:10 AM
You're asking this on an Aikido forum!


Heh, indeed. Shows how straight-minded I was last night :).
However, I think you're right; I should be looking into it for the fun, and not comparing it to other MAs. The dojo wasn't open last night, but I can give the sensei a call and let her know that I want to enroll.

Many thanks,
Richard Reavis

ald1225
11-29-2005, 09:13 AM
http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=53&sid=c3efce3cd0f701c17c21d278bdce15f8

Zukai Aikido Nyumon (Scroll half way down)

ald1225
11-29-2005, 09:44 AM
Check this photo of O-Sensei, I would say that's a choke hold rarely seen today...

Aikido is your aikido. Also check out systema (http://www.russianmartialart.com/), some movements are similar to Aikido. Check out their groundfighting (http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=30)

maxwell
11-29-2005, 12:34 PM
If I had a dollar everytime someone asks the "Aikido vs [insert MA]" question...

It's the artist not the art. As long as you're playing by someone's else's rules, you'll lose.

Oh, and I'd do what Peter Rehse said too.

When we play on the street with no rules ?
We never know, in what distance we should fight to defence ourself. :) :)

Sanshouaikikai
11-29-2005, 02:24 PM
hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...

-Richard Reavies

When did this happen? I mean....I know it's possible and all...but...did it really happen?

Williamross77
11-29-2005, 02:40 PM
In my dojo we train specifically against those types of shoots and leg takedowns with kaiten nages or ude garami or hiji gatami, as well as other martial arts styles of combat, but you would need someone to train you in those first. it is the artist not the art. some schools will not augment the attack modes of the Uke at least pre yudansha stage.

verygreen(new)indeed
11-29-2005, 02:48 PM
is this not a rhetorical question? who would win MA V's MA..... depends on the practitioners, the day, the temperature, the surroundings, the way the wind is blowing etc etc etc etc etc surely????

Roy Dean
11-29-2005, 03:58 PM
hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...

-Richard Reavies

When did this happen? I mean....I know it's possible and all...but...did it really happen?


One of my BJJ students relayed his own experience to me: As an experienced yudansha, and being an imposing physical specimen (6'2", 200 pounds), he didn't think anyone would be able to take him down. He had even trained to thwart takedown attempts, using Kaiten Nage other techniques shown to him by Steaven Seagal. They worked fine in the dojo, against people that weren't trained in takedowns. However, when he squared off against a student who had only been training 6 months in BJJ, he admitted that he was taken down at will! That was a real wakeup call to him to supplement his training.

He didn't rely on anecdotes of past masters for proof of effectiveness, he sought to feel it for himself. He and his aikido practice are stronger now because of his courage to experience the unknown. It's an attitude that I feel is often lacking in the Aikido community, but should be a RESPONSIBILITY for those warriors willing to take their training to the next level.


Roy Dean

CNYMike
11-29-2005, 04:48 PM
.... In the early days I used to wonder what would happen if I got attacked by a proficient person from (insert any MA here). Over time, it became less important, now I really don't care. My Aikido is precisiely that, my Aikido. It's me that makes it effective, through my practice, if it doesn't work, it's me that didn't do it properly, but the beauty of practice is that I can try agai, and again, and again........The more I practice, the more I realize that comparing arts or worrying which is better is a fruitless task .....

Well said, Bryan.

For myself, I have a similar attitude, although coming from the opposite direction: In the years since quitting Seidokan Aikido in 1988 or thereabouts, I continued with karate and added other arts, including LaCoste Inosanto Kali, which is an all-inclusive system dealing with not just sticks but many types of weapons and many areas of empty hand combat, including grappling. Along the way my instructors hammered in the idea that at any particualr range -- kickboxing, trapping, grappling, and so forth --- there's enough ground to cover to have a complete martial art in just that area, which has been demonstrated by the fact that such systems exist. And it is ok that there are systems that specialize in certain areas, even excell at them, and may not be all that good at others. This explains why on the one hand, since returning to Aikido, I am happy with it as I find it, but on the other hand, I acknowledge that there are things many Aikido practitioners don't see in the dojo. There's no contradiction here if you understand the big picture of how the arts all sort of relate to each other.

So when I think of Aikido vs. BJJ, it looks to me like a "clash" of two specializations. Yes, an Aikidoka who was taken down by a BJJ person would be in serious trouble. But if the Aikidoka were successful in snagging an arm as the BJJ attempted his entry and managed to apply a technique, the BJJ person would have technical difficulties. Which is more likely? Ask the odds makers in Vegas; they're as likely to be right as anybody. For every anecdote of a yudansha (or a black belt in anything else) conquered by BJJ newbie, there's stories about BJJ people being foiled by people from other arts; I've seen a few posts here and there by Aikido people claiming grapplers couldn't take them down unless they let them. Place yer bets! That's all it's good for.


You need to stop worrying about it, stop giving excuses for not starting yet and get your backside into a dojo (you don't need a keiko gi from day one, nor a jo or bokken). One of two things will happen, you'll enjoy it, or you won't, at which point you'll practice more, or leave.


Couldn't have put it better myself. Richard, JUST DO IT! Your BJJ guy gives you a hard time, don't sweat it unless he's being a real jerk about it. Maybe you could go to both arts -- you join him in BJJ, and he joins you in Aikido. End of argument .... if there ever was an argument to begin with.

RDReavis
11-29-2005, 05:28 PM
He's not really giving me a hard time, just joking around, which brought up my question. But I gave my soon-to-be sensei a call (left a message) and she might get back to me today (the dojo isn't open tonight). Thank you everybody for all of your help!

Thank you!
Richard Reavis

CNYMike
11-29-2005, 11:27 PM
He's not really giving me a hard time, just joking around, which brought up my question ....

If it's all in fun, then don't worry about it too much. As I said in another thread, since he'll throw stuff at you you won't see in the dojo, pay attention to what he does; learn to watch for it and figure out counters.


But I gave my soon-to-be sensei a call (left a message) and she might get back to me today (the dojo isn't open tonight). Thank you everybody for all of your help!

Thank you!
Richard Reavis

You're welcome; hope you like your class.

RDReavis
11-29-2005, 11:34 PM
Heh, I'm downloading - oops, did I say that out loud? I meant somebody is sharing some BJJ instructional videos with me :). That should give me a shallow view as to what I should expect if he pulls anything new. I'll probably ask him to show me some examples of BJJ in his/my spare time; this way I can get some possible skill in each art.

Thank you!
Richard Reavis

xuzen
11-30-2005, 12:43 AM
Just a curious question, for those folks who also do BJJ, what is your counter to the typical ude hineri type pin in aikido. This is also known as the normal osae pin after nikyo or yonkyo. Thanks for sharing your expertise.

Boon.

mathewjgano
11-30-2005, 03:10 AM
I would like to know the comparison of both, since Aikido was based off of Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu.
This thread has grown a bit and I'm sure i won't be adding much substatial to it, but I'd like to simply reiterate that ideally (my opinion) every system should teach you the same principles and that the techniques are merely a means to practice becoming aware of those princples. The difference between arts lies in the different emphasis. Within every art there is a gradient of strengths and weaknesses. I'd say what's generally more important than what system you train in is in who your teacher(s) is/are. One good way to see how Aikido and BJJ relate to each other is to practice with your friend. At the very least you'll be able to learn his perspective.
Anyhoo...my two bits.
Take care,
Matt

Tim Gerrard
11-30-2005, 05:28 AM
Once you start training, after a few months, ask your friend if he feels like cross training with you, so you can mutually help each other and both of you progress. Rather than eyeing each other up ready for a fight every time you meet. I'm not saying don't fight, just do it in a way that you can both benefit.

And one for 'Aikido doesn't work in a fight' people:

"Aikido works, YOUR Aikido doesn't" (said 100 times before and will be said 100 times again)

ps. D'Oh! Just read the above post.....

DaveS
11-30-2005, 06:04 AM
I mean, hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...

Well, shodan translates, iirc, as 'first step'. So a shodan is a relative newbie. It's just that some relative newbies are more relative than others...

James Davis
11-30-2005, 11:12 AM
I mean, hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...

Sorry about my ignorance and arrogance. :(
Richard Reavis
Lack of arrogance should be your strength. If you aren't arrogant, you can make friends. If you have lots of friends, they can kick in the BJJ guy's ribs when he takes you to the ground! :D

Just kiddin'. :p

Seriously, though, if you're gonna be attacked it's probably gonna be by more than one person. Nobody fights fair anymore. :disgust: Train with one guy and behave as if your opponents are many. Train with a few guys and treat them all as one. Awareness is the key. Don't be jumpy; just be ready. ;)

Roy Dean
11-30-2005, 02:06 PM
Boon,

I'm not sure about which pin you're talking about. Are you referring to locking uke's arm with his hand up on your shoulder? Or locking it on the ground with your hand behind their elbow, other hand on their wrist?

Either way, the key to the reversal is awareness, and continuing the momentum of the technique before it's fully completed. All techniques have a beginning, middle, and end. It's much harder to reverse the technique at the end of the end phase!

If the arm is being locked on the floor, I would attempt to roll out of the technique. The arm may be immobilized, so you must move the parts of your body that are free (i.e. hips, other arm, knees). If the arm is perpendicular to the ground and being locked, I would create space by getting up on my elbow and knees, then turn back into my opponent, switching my hips underneath me. I may be able to replace guard, but more likely I'll be sidemounted. Which is still an inferior position, but better than where I was before, and escaping from sidemount isn't that difficult once you know what to do.

I hope this helps answer your question.

Roy

Michael Neal
11-30-2005, 02:59 PM
BJJ isn't all that great for the streets unless you get taken down. Aikido is a lot better for those situations that involve stand up. People on the streets aren't amazing groundfighters or anything like that so if you know how to apply your art properly then you shouldn't have a problem. Let's say that if an aikidoka got somehow attacked by some rogue BJJ expert or judoka on the streets or in the battlefield...Aikido would have the upper hand...that is...if it's an aikidoka that knows how to apply his/her art. Remember, Aikido is the preferred martial art among law enforcement agencies throughout the world.

You sound like someone who has very little experience in martial arts or being in physical confrontations. A pure Aikidoka having an upper hand against a BJJ expert or Judoka? Not likely.

James Kelly
11-30-2005, 04:53 PM
hearing about shodans in aikido being taken down by relative newbies in BJJ seems a little discomforting...

-Richard Reavies

When did this happen? I mean....I know it's possible and all...but...did it really happen?

Happened to me. I'm a ni-dan in aikido in good shape. I went to play with a small bjj club to expand my horizons. I got taken down almost every time by the beginners and choked out in a matter of seconds by the middle level guys.

At first this kind of upset me, but I've been thinking about it.

Why did this happen? Is it because I suck? No. It's because we were playing their game. They train their game every day. We train ours. Remember, there are rules, some explicit: no atemi; no single arm chokes... some obvious: no hidden weapons; no friends to double team... some implied: no long term damage; no sneaky stuff like talking your way out of the fight...

There's also the question of mindset. They train everyday to be aggressive and to choke out their opponents. I don't. I train everyday to stay relaxed and look for another way out. I don't really want to hurt the other guy. They train everyday NOT to tap out. Two guys will be rolling and one will get an arm bar and the other will shout, ‘I'm not tapping out! I'm not tapping out!' I tap out as soon as I feel pain in a joint. I've got nothing to prove there (I'm also older than these guys, except for the professor).

Does this mean bjj is a superior martial art? Not at all. It means it works well on the bjj mat. Bring them to an aikido dojo, where they have to actually try to hit you, where you can move around, where they have to be aware of other attackers, where they have to assume you may have a knife, where your goal is NOT to hurt the other guy and I suspect things'll be different.

It's a mistake to think that you can magically pull off aikido techniques on an experienced bjj guy in a free form situation. All the wrist locks/pins... they're very hard to apply to someone not attacking you. But it's also a mistake to think that this means bjj is somehow better in the real world.

Every training situation has rules. People in the sparing arts think that their situation somehow parallels the real world. But the truth is, the sparing situation, where both parties are on equal footing, calmly looking for an opening... how often does this situation arise outside the dojo? In my experience, never (we're not counting 4 o'clock in the alley behind school in the fourth grade). If some stranger and I are circling the room, rolling up our sleeves, getting ready for a ‘real' fight, I've seriously got to rethink what got me there. What could he have done that demands retribution? How bad a guy is he? He's so bad that I'm gong to risk getting disfigured over it? (even if I can kick his ass, there are so many other factors, I could slip and fall... way too much luck involved) If he did something so heinous, call the cops.

Terry Dobson used to say that when the s--t goes down you'll probably have a bag of groceries in one arm and a baby in the other. He would sometimes train holding a baby doll. Getting jumped on the way to your car, that seems a more likely scenario. If he's got a knife or a gun, give him the keys. If not, pop him and break out. If someone lunges at you out of the blue (the only real world physical conflict I've encountered) aikido is exactly what you want. Step aside and keep walking. I don't want to go to ground with a stranger on the street if I can help it. I don't even want to get close enough to throw a koshi.

Anyway, I learned a lot from these bjj guys and when I have some time, I'm going back. What will be interesting to see is if the aikido principals I've been training all these years, if they will speed my progress in bjj. Only one way to find out...

xuzen
11-30-2005, 11:50 PM
Boon,
I'm not sure about which pin you're talking about. Are you referring to locking uke's arm with his hand up on your shoulder? Or locking it on the ground with your hand behind their elbow, other hand on their wrist?
Either way, the key to the reversal is awareness, and continuing the momentum of the technique before it's fully completed. All techniques have a beginning, middle, and end. It's much harder to reverse the technique at the end of the end phase!
If the arm is being locked on the floor, I would attempt to roll out of the technique. The arm may be immobilized, so you must move the parts of your body that are free (i.e. hips, other arm, knees). If the arm is perpendicular to the ground and being locked, I would create space by getting up on my elbow and knees, then turn back into my opponent, switching my hips underneath me. I may be able to replace guard, but more likely I'll be side-mounted. Which is still an inferior position, but better than where I was before, and escaping from side-mount isn't that difficult once you know what to do.
I hope this helps answer your question.
Roy

Roy,

Thank you for answering. The immobilization I referred to is the one where you have uke on the floor, lying on his stomach and you cuddle his arm onto your body and apply a twist until he taps out. Your position will be at the side of the uke. Ude hideri is the Japanese name. This immobilization is the one which aikidoka typically end when he finishes nikyo or yonkyo.

I totally agree with awareness and sensitivity being the successful ingredient in reversal. I have seen my uke rolling out of it, when my lock is sloppy. Other times, he is unable to roll out if I have the lock correctly placed. Personally, I have to improvise the lock to prevent uke from escaping, and they work... through trial and error of course.

Another aspect I want to touch on is that many nage will just let go if uke decide to escape. Personally I try to go with the uke's flow and stick to him like magnet to metal on the ground and when the opportunity arises, reapply the lock. The lock can be the traditional aikido locks, or the judo shime-waza (choke hold) type. I am personally not very good in kesa-gatame (ground hold) so I avoid doing them.

I have also experienced brilliant reversal where-by I thought I have sucessfully apply on my senior (adjutant sensei actually) a choke hold on the ground and he was able to counter it with a painful arm-bar (waki-gatame).

Bear in mind, that I live in a place where BJJ is non-existent, and neither of us know any BJJ stuff. But these are all logical moves and seem rather natural actually. The key thing is awareness as Roy mentioned, sensitivity and the ability to go with the flow. The more relax you are, the less likely it hurts and the more success you have to counter your opponent.

I have been doing aikido for the past 10 years now, if I still keep on doing the traditional type (or kata type aikido) I would have quit much earlier. Each time I attend class, I am still amazed at the potential of applying aiki principle in non-kata circumstances, this is what makes me keep going back to class.

My sensei said, don't compartmentalize aikido as aikido, judo as judo or jujutsu as jujutsu. This tend to stifles your creativity. Aikido, judo, jujutsu are just a continuous line on a spectrum of martial application. Bear in mind, aikido was once aiki-jujutsu not too long ago (less than 100 years), i.e., it was just another school of jujutsu like Fusen-ryu, Kito-ryu or Kosen-ryu etc.

Boon.

JAMJTX
12-01-2005, 12:05 AM
Considering that so many Aikido techniques are barred in the BJJ no holds barred tournaments, it is probably pretty effective.

Coming from judo, BJJ has nothing that is not found in any other martial art. people are just bamboozled by the marketing of it.

My experience with BJJr's is that they can not stand up and fight and they like to scream foul when they lose.

If you like Aikido and think it wil lfit your needs then take it. Just don't fall into the trap later on of letting some one with more BJJ training than you have in Aikido get you into a contest based on thier rules to "prove that Aikido doesn't work".

Roy Dean
12-01-2005, 12:04 PM
Jim,

Could you elaborate on which techniques are barred in BJJ tournaments? In my experience, the only thing disallowed is finger manipulation and very high risk submissions that twist the knee, like the heelhook (however, these are often legal at no-gi competitions).. All wrist locks, shoulder locks, armbars, leglocks, and chokes are allowed. I have seen black belt matches ended by wristlocks, and I'm quite partial to them myself.

I also strongly disagree that the uniqueness of BJJ is nothing more than a clever marketing scheme. Yes, techniques are techniques, and many of the techniques in BJJ are also found in Judo, Sambo, etc. What makes it different is the details: it's how you enter into, for example, a triangle choke; it's the transitions between techniques; and it's the emphasis on positional dominance. Judo was my first art, and in some ways I'll always be a judoka, but the depth that BJJ has brought to the newaza game is astounding.



Boon,

Great post. I completely agree that the application of aiki-principles is almost limitless, whether standing or on the ground. Since I've trained in Judo, Aikido, and BJJ, I see little difference between them all in application. Certainly, teaching methodologies differ, as well as technical emphasis, but in a free flow situation, all these grappling arts boil down to the basics: Push and pull, get to an advantageous angle, use leverage, timing, and sensitivity. And a little momentum helps everything.

Sounds like you're training under an excellent teacher.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean
www.royharris.com
www.jiaiaikido.com

Derek Gaudet
12-01-2005, 12:40 PM
A pure Aikidoka having an upper hand against a BJJ expert or Judoka? Not likely.

Just thought I'd write my two cents out..... I'd have to disagree with the above comment, and hears why.. I can produce a similar argument "A pure BJJ expert or Judoka having an upper hand against and Aikidoka? Not Likely." You see the later is no more convincing than the former, simply bias. I'm studying both arts, neither is more effective then the other, they both have weaknesses and strengths. Personally I prefer to keep on my feet because I consider wrestling on the ground too dangerous, especially if your smaller. Also the ability to defend yourself against others who may chip in to help their friend is extremely limited. However, through studying BJJ I can work on more realistic defenses from an attacker shooting the guard, or if I get knocked over, I can find a way to get back to my feet. In what I have seen both arts are effective at turning the attacker into a human knot, Aikido just prefers to not become part of that knot.

When I started with BJJ one of the newer students approached me from the side while I was talking with another student, shot my guard... and took me down ( the problem was the Ma ai was to close, but I had no reason to keep a larger distance because fellow student shouldn't be considered a threat). Fine we played his game. Later I asked if I could use him to work on my defenses against this attack , he agreed and I got my proper Ma ai, in this situation, he shot the guard, I turned he did a face plant in the mat and found himself incapable of movement. You see two scenarios with two outcomes... Both work if you use them right. As it has been said time and time again, it's the artist not the art. Saying Aikido is better then BJJ or vice versa... is like saying a pen is better than a pencil, both write, both do the same thing. Aikido is a martial art so is BJJ they both do the same thing, keep you safe. Kind Regards.....
Derek Gaudet

Sanshouaikikai
12-01-2005, 02:20 PM
Oh...I have a lot of experience, my good friend. 13 years in Muay Thai, Karate, Wrestling and Chinese martial arts. I've also dabbled in BJJ, Judo, and Dan Zan Ryu Jujitsu. I Started taking Aikido almost a year ago...at least the way we train...it seems a lot more effective and realistic than BJJ...for the streets at least, you know? Also...I've been in a lot of street confrontations...I used to go to schools where pick-pocketing was a daily ritual for some and getting kicked in the face or thrown into something was their answer from me, lol. I only train for the streets...especially since I live in the inner city here and throwing/off balancing techniques and escape/counter techniques (which you learn in Aikido) are the things that work best in street self defense situations...not trying to get someone in a triangle choke hold for fifteen minutes.

Sanshouaikikai
12-01-2005, 02:21 PM
Oh...I have a lot of experience, my good friend. 13 years in Muay Thai, Karate, Wrestling and Chinese martial arts. I've also dabbled in BJJ, Judo, and Dan Zan Ryu Jujitsu. I Started taking Aikido almost a year ago...at least the way we train...it seems a lot more effective and realistic than BJJ...for the streets at least, you know? Also...I've been in a lot of street confrontations...I used to go to schools where pick-pocketing was a daily ritual for some and getting kicked in the face or thrown into something was their answer from me, lol. I only train for the streets...especially since I live in the inner city here and throwing/off balancing techniques and escape/counter techniques (which you learn in Aikido) are the things that work best in street self defense situations...not trying to get someone in a triangle choke hold for fifteen minutes.

This was in a reply to someone on the previous page...just so you guys know, lol.

Chizikunbo
12-02-2005, 09:54 PM
I didn't say anything about picking fights or getting in fights; I am wondering how aikido does against BJJ. If I wanted to really kick his arse, I would join BJJ or some other, possibly more violent martial art. He is friendly-fighting, if that makes any sense...joke fighting, if that is any clearer.

Sorry for any confusion.
Richard
Hello fellow budo-ka,
Aikido is not this type of martial art in the first place. It is a lifstyle of cultivating peace, harmony and compassion and then incorperating them into every aspect of our existance for a peaceful harmonious lifestyle, that aids the world in becoming a better place. It is not the petty type of art that is so common today " my sensei could beat your sensei" "my kung fu can beat your kung fu" this type of attitude is wrong from the beggining. You should htink of Aikido as a life long journy of harmony, peace, compassion and self-discovery, not a way of fighting, but a way of not fighting.
That is the true way of :ai: :ki:
Sincerly,
--joshua paszkiewicz

Abasan
12-03-2005, 07:18 AM
Boon,

There's a bjj class here in KL at Menara Bangsar condo if I'm not mistaken.

mathewjgano
12-03-2005, 11:06 PM
You sound like someone who has very little experience in martial arts or being in physical confrontations. A pure Aikidoka having an upper hand against a BJJ expert or Judoka? Not likely.
I agree it sounds assumptive to say people on the streets aren't that great at ground-fighting (at the very least, planning on odds leaves you open to that rare but existing one-percent), but I think it's equally assumptive to suggest someone who has only trained in aikido will be at an automatic disadvantage against someone of similar experience in another art like judo or BJJ. It's more about your teacher than your art (or, how you train compared to what general stylistic approach you train in), in my opinion. I think it's also a bit assumptive to think BJJ is only about ground-fighting, but I would say that ground-fighting is best done on a mat and not the street. I'd rather not grapple with someone under a non-controlled situation and would much rather throw them if possible, considering I know my buddies would love to see a guy attacking me with his arms and legs preoccupied in some lock. All in all, train for everything you can think of and if you develop doubts about your given school, check out another method and compare.
Cheers!

Chizikunbo
12-04-2005, 08:13 AM
Hello everyone,
thought I might as well add my "two cents"
In physical confrontation a truly dedicated Aikidoka would have the "upper hand" in my opinion. My teacher can stun you in your trackes without even touching you, it sounds far fetched but its true, this comes from his aikido training with Hikitsuchi Hanshi to my understanding. He teaches the use of the mind is very important, that when we have the right mind we can overcome any obstical, such things as "I Tai Ka", and "Zan Shin", "Wa Shin", "Fu Do Shin" and many all come together, and allow to two people to connect on a mental and spirtual level, in this way you can anticipate your opponets rash actions, and very quickly overcome him or her, with little effort, but strong mind.

THIS IS NOT OFFICIAL TEACHING OF TENSHINICHIRYU(tm), FOR MORE INFORMATION VISIT WWW.TENSHINICHIRYU.COM

Yours in :ai: :ki: ,
--Joshua

Michael Neal
12-05-2005, 10:03 AM
There are always some here that get so defensive when their assumptions about Aikido are challenged. For the record I want to note that I am not starting an argument about Judo/BJJ being better than Aikido. I am responding to a previous post claiming that Aikido would have an upper hand against a Judoka or BJJ practicioner on the street.

First I want to point out that there is a big difference between Judo and BJJ, while BJJ focuses almost exclusively on groundfighting, Judoka are quite skilled at standup throwing and use groundfighting as a secondary skill. I have a little training in BJJ but since my focus has been in Judo I will only speak to my experience in it as it relates to Aikido. Due to the many hours the average Judoka dedicates to live sparring in standup and ground fighting, compared to the very little randori the average Aikidoka does, I find it would be very very unlikely for an Aikidoka to defeat a judoka of comparable experience.

We have had many Aikidoka train at our Judo dojo and they learn much faster than other students and pick up Judo fast, but their Aikido techniques are very limited against a trained Judoka. I have given them all permission to use Aikido against me in randori and have yet to have anyone apply anything effectively on me.

Let me clarify that I don't think Aikido is ineffective, I just don't think it is particularly useful against experienced grapplers.

I agree with many here that bringing a fight to the ground deliberately is probably not a good idea in most situations, but to assume that is all a Judoka has in their arsenal is pretty ignorant. A judoka is intent on ending an encounter with a debilitating throw and only following up with groundwork if neccesary.

It is dangerous for an Aikidoka to assume that they can absolutely prevent a fight from going to the ground. What will you do if you find yourself there and have no skills to get yourself out of that situation? I think the weakness of BJJ is their almost complete dedication to fighting on the ground but a big weakness of Aikido is a complete absence of that type of training.

I

Lyle Bogin
12-05-2005, 02:23 PM
I think BJJ gets more free promotion through these threads than any other martial art.

Devon Natario
12-05-2005, 02:44 PM
I think Michael Neal is pretty much correct in everything he says. I have taken all three arts and I agree with his statements.

I do however believe that the three combined make a great art. I think they call it Jujutsu

Steven Gubkin
12-11-2005, 12:47 PM
A BJJ player will not automatically go to the ground in every fight. At least at my club, we take alot of time practising throws, doing takedown only sparring, ... etc. The BJJ player has a lot of stand-up options available to them, and since they practice throws against fully resistant opponents, they will have very good strong throws. Not only this, because we have to denfend against fully committed takedowns all the time in a non-cooperative format, we have good takedown defense as well. I know that if I got in a fight with more than one person, I would rely on the throws I learn in BJJ, and only fight from the ground if I get taken down.
Someone said that the reason they coudn't use their Aikido against the Bjj people was because they were not throwing strikes at them. I have 2 answers for this. #1 A huge portion of the Aikido training I received started from a grappling situation: someone pulling the lapels, pushing me, grabbing my wrist, trying to circle around for a choke,... etc. Aikido should work against these things when the Bjj player tries to do them to you. #2 A lot of people who do Bjj are interested in NHB, and will spar NHB if you are freindly with them (or if you really piss them off lol). If you want to test your ability against strikes, just ask one of your Bjj buddies to put on some MMA gloves, and go to it.
Also someone claiming to practise Bjj claimed that the defended against another Bjj player who was "shooting the gaurd", by doing a tenkan. I have never heard the phrase "shooting the guard" before. Their is "shooting" (attempting a leg takedown where you change levels and "shoot" in - the kind of takedown you see in high school wrestling alot), and their is "pulling guard", which means jumping up and wrapping your legs around your opponents hips. "shooting the gaurd" really doesn't make any sense. I suspect that you are either very new to BJJ, or do not do BJJ. Also a properly executed shot is extremely hard to defend against. Doing a tenkan would not result in the person shooting falling over, if they were doing it right, because you are supposed to be balanced the whole time.

JAMJTX
12-17-2005, 11:26 AM
"Jim, Could you elaborate on which techniques are barred in BJJ tournaments?"

I know at one time Kote Gaeshi and Nikkajop were barred. Here's how I know that.

I trained at an Aikido Dojo that also taught Jujutsu. The jujutsu club was interested in getting involved in the Gracie tournaments. That led to the son of the teacher being invited out to train at some of the Gracie schools in L.A. and Las Vegas. He was a brown belt preparing for Shodan. He reported back that they never fully explained thier rules to him and each time he submitted someone they told him that technqiue violated the rules. He came back rather unimpressed with them.

There was a local tournament coming up that the dojo was trying to prepare for. Knowing that there were barred techniques they wanted to know in advance what the rules would be so that they could eliminate the barred techniques from thier practice, which would allow them to develop a strategy and find a work around for techniques that they likes that may be banned. The gracies refused to provide the rules in advance, saying there will be a rules meeting before the tournament. That would have the Gracie team training according ot the rules that they wrote then springing a surpise on all the other competitors just moments before the competition. That would not guarantee that the Gracie team would win all matches, but it surely put the non-Gracie teams at a disadvantage. The dojo decided to not go to the tournament.

Roy Dean
12-17-2005, 12:54 PM
Jim,

You might want to check out these rules:

For Gracie Competitions:

http://www.igjjf.com/openchamp_official_rulesNEW.html

For General BJJ competitions:

http://bjj.org/tournaments/rules.html

Kotegaeshi and NIkkajo are currently allowed, and to my knowledge have always been legal. I have seen wristlocks win matches at the highest levels.

If the son of your Jujutsu dojo instructor was unimpressed by training with the Gracies, then he must have standards higher than many. many world class martial artists. Hearsay is one thing- I'd invite you to actually feel it for yourself. I have many Aikido yudansha, from excellent lineages, in my grappling classes that are impressed with the Gracie style techniques, and are hungry to learn more.

I think it was a missed opportunity for the son of your jujutsu instructor to not go and clean house at the tournament. After all, he could have submitted them and shown how ineffectiveness of the world's premier groundfighting art! It all sound very likely...

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

mj
12-17-2005, 02:22 PM
I have to ask one burning question regarding BJJ ... why would you ever take a fight to the ground and roll around in the broken glass and spilt alcohol on the floor of a bar, whilst simultaneously having your opponents mates kick you in the head whilst you roll around?...
Because you're master there. Sure enough people may try to hit you but between you and the other guy on the ground with you - only one of you is getting up.

And just because those UFC and NHB guys seem to take ages groundfighting on TV - don't think you'll last 2 seconds down there if you're not trained. They'll snap your elbows off, crush your ribs or knock you out before you even know where they are. And if that is a problem then you shouldn't be rolling around on the ground trying to hurt them.

Groundwork is an art trained at a very high level these days and it shouldn't be taken lightly with arguments like 'ah but in a dirty bar someone would kick you' - it is extreme and it is probably insulting to a lot of groundfighters - the implication being they inhabit that kind of place.

JAMJTX
12-18-2005, 09:07 PM
"Kotegaeshi and NIkkajo are currently allowed"

I want to first make sure that I did not leave the impression that my friend (the Jujutsu teachers son) won every match. He did actually lose some.
But those he won using Kotegaeshi and Nikkajo, after the submission he was told they were barred technqiues.

They may now have the rules posted on a web site. If they were available back then, they should have directed others to the site so they would know the rules. For this tournament, the promoters were refusing to make the rules known prior to the event, despite numerous requests for the rules.

Maybe they cleaned up thier act now. But back then they left the impression that they were trying to fix the tournaments and cried foul every time they lost.

Michael Neal
12-19-2005, 11:53 AM
I don't think the Gracies try and fix the rules to their advantage but they do pick their fights carefully to minimize the possibility of losing.

But the rules lawyers are definately in play at various MMA events. In UFC for example, you can not knee someone in the face when they shoot for your legs, this puts wrestlers at an advantage against somone trained in Muay Thai or other striking art.

BJJ is no longer the dominate style of fighting for MMA but it is the best style for groundfighting, they have to crosstrain to round out their skills just like everyone else.

Every martial art has weaknesses that need to be balanced with other types of training. What gets me is the Aikidoka (or any other martial artist) that think their style is perfectly suitable for any type of situation. It simply is not true.

Originally jujitsu included all this type of training: groundfighting, joint locks, throws, strikes, etc. And I am not talking about the various modern Japanese influenced jujitsu schools that we see today that are pretty much just a weak mixture of karate, judo, and aikido. Jujitsu really does not exist anymore as it was originally practiced.

Jujitsu split up into a variety of martial arts specializing in one aspect of fighting. Aikido focuses on joint locks and multiple opponents, Judo on big throws and newaza, BJJ on groundfighting, karate on striking etc. None of these is a complete system, they all have weaknesses in particular situations.

I am particularly biased towards Judo because if you practice all it has to offer you will cover the most apects of fighting when compared to other arts. Throws & groundwork combined with frequent randori makes you a formidible and well rounded grappler at close range. The katas teach many of the same joint manipulation techniques as Aikido as well as defense against strikes and weapons.

I think Aikido, BJJ, and karate all have valuable martial applications and are quite good if the practioner gets some sort of crosstraining to round out the weaknesses, but on their own they can get you in trouble fast. BJJ is not very effective in multiple attacker situations or any circumstance where going to the ground is not a good idea, Aikido starts to break down when a situation turns to grappling or the opponent is very skilled at striking, and karate is pretty much hopeless after the striking range in breeched. Judo if practiced exclusively for sport does limit some of the applications of the art as well.

But in a style vs. style fight, I think most Aikido and Karate practioners would be at a disadvantage since they rely on some medium range distance to be successful, if that distance is breeched and they have no grappling training it is pretty much over for them if their opponents does have those skills.

jonreading
12-19-2005, 01:44 PM
Minimize the risk of losing...I like that idea. I know that sometimes it is difficult to imagine ground fighting as efficient or true combat, but ground fighting is important to rounded combat training and martial arts. BJJ has some advantages that we sacrifice in training, and vice versa. Aikido is rooted in a concept of warfare, where ground fighting is a disadvantage; that has nothing to do with the superiority of any style over another.

I don't know if a couple of bad experiences is enough to condemn an entire martial art. If so, I would no longer practice aikido...

Ron Tisdale
12-19-2005, 03:03 PM
Jujitsu really does not exist anymore as it was originally practiced.

Sorry, but I can't accept this. Visit www.e-budo.com and under koryu arts, the jujutsu forum. There you will find many extent arts classified as jujutsu that are quite old. Some arts are composite arts, which practise sword, grappling, other weapons, strategy, etc. Araki ryu would be one example of these. Takeuchi-ryu is an example of a classical school that still exists that trains jujutsu. Interestingly enough...I don't believe you will find any BJJ style 'ground grappling' in it. I wouldn't be surprised if much the same could be said about Kito ryu and the other traditional jujutsu styles that judo comes from. But I could be proven wrong. Just to be clear, something like kosen judo would NOT qualify as a 'classical' style of jujutsu.

Best,
Ron

Best,
Ron

Michael Neal
12-19-2005, 03:27 PM
kosen is just a term that refers to a style of Judo that was practiced at many Universities. it is actually based on Fusen-Ryu. Fusen-Ryu was developed in the 1800's from many different koryu jujitsu styles.

http://www.geocities.com/ibfaustralia/jujutsu.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosen_judo

Ron Tisdale
12-19-2005, 03:32 PM
Absolutely correct. Which makes me wonder why you said what you did in the quote above...
Best,
Ron

Michael Neal
12-19-2005, 03:36 PM
As far as classic jujitsu still being a viable option to train in, yes there are a few schools that can trace their lineage but the vast majority of jujitsu schools are really just cheap imitations. And the ones that do exist probably do not practice the same as they did in the past. The most effective styles and techniques tested by intense competition were pretty much merged into Judo, this included newaza, tachiwaza and many of the self defense and joint manipulations that are also found in Aikido.

Michael Neal
12-19-2005, 03:37 PM
Absolutely correct. Which makes me wonder why you said what you did in the quote above...
Best,
Ron

Because it was pretty much absorbed into Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. You would hard pressed to find some authentic Fusen-Ryu schools out there.

Takeuchi-ryu is an example of a classical school that still exists that trains jujutsu. Interestingly enough...I don't believe you will find any BJJ style 'ground grappling' in it. I wouldn't be surprised if much the same could be said about Kito ryu and the other traditional jujutsu styles that judo comes from. But I could be proven wrong. Just to be clear, something like kosen judo would NOT qualify as a 'classical' style of jujutsu.

You were trying to say that ground grappling did not exist in classical jujitsu and I was countering that point by showing where it came from.

Ron Tisdale
12-19-2005, 03:41 PM
What would make you say that they "probably do not practice the same"? One of the major features of a koryu is kata training, and it's use in maintaining the traditions of the ryu.

Again, the majority of schools in say, the US was not what you said. You said it does not exist anymore as originally practised. I named some that are. Are you saying they don't?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
12-19-2005, 03:45 PM
The following is a list of koryu jujutsu styles described at www.koryubooks.com, and the approximate dates of their founding.

Araki-ryu kogusoku
founded late Muromachi period (ca. 1573)
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
founded mid-Meiji period (ca. 1890)
Hontai Yoshin-ryu jujutsu
founded early Edo period (ca. 1660)
Sekiguchi Shinshin-ryu jujutsu
founded early Tokugawa period (ca. 1640)
Sosuishitsu-ryu jujutsu
founded early Edo period (ca. 1650)
Takenouchi-ryu jujutsu
founded late Muromachi period (1532)
Tatsumi-ryu heiho
founded late Muromachi period (ca. 1550)
Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu
founded ca. 1830
Yagyu Shingan-ryu taijutsu
founded early 1600s

Michael Neal
12-19-2005, 03:50 PM
some koryu trained only kata others did a combination of kata and randori. Mostly, the ryu that did randori type training were merged into Judo.

Takeuchi-ryu is an example of a classical school that still exists that trains jujutsu. Interestingly enough...I don't believe you will find any BJJ style 'ground grappling' in it. I wouldn't be surprised if much the same could be said about Kito ryu and the other traditional jujutsu styles that judo comes from. But I could be proven wrong. Just to be clear, something like kosen judo would NOT qualify as a 'classical' style of jujutsu.

Sure they exist, but the real ones are very rare.

Michael Neal
12-19-2005, 03:54 PM
The following is a list of koryu jujutsu styles described at www.koryubooks.com, and the approximate dates of their founding.

Araki-ryu kogusoku
founded late Muromachi period (ca. 1573)
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
founded mid-Meiji period (ca. 1890)
Hontai Yoshin-ryu jujutsu
founded early Edo period (ca. 1660)
Sekiguchi Shinshin-ryu jujutsu
founded early Tokugawa period (ca. 1640)
Sosuishitsu-ryu jujutsu
founded early Edo period (ca. 1650)
Takenouchi-ryu jujutsu
founded late Muromachi period (1532)
Tatsumi-ryu heiho
founded late Muromachi period (ca. 1550)
Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu
founded ca. 1830
Yagyu Shingan-ryu taijutsu
founded early 1600s

Ok Ron you got me, they exist. My point really was not that they do not exist at all but that they are very rare and do not really represent a viable training option for most people.

I would also contend that the best of koryu jujitsu was tried under contest and absorbed into Judo, including those styles that included ground grappling. Existing koryu jujitsu is probably more useful as a museum exhibit than a martial art for the modern world.

Ron Tisdale
12-19-2005, 04:14 PM
Huh...since many of them used kogusoku to dispatch their opponants, I don't think they would have a problem with working just fine. You may think they are just a museum piece, but I certainly don't, and I don't think you would if you had much experience with them.

As far as the best comment, judo is pretty much from Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, both of which are still around. Judo's main innovation is in the area of the type of randori practiced, and that it is the central feature of the training. Just remove the locks against the joints, the neck breaks, etc., and train what you can train safely. That doesn't say that the other methods don't work. It does say that to go full out, full resistance, you don't want to use those other things. That's a far cry from 'these are the best waza'. Those are the best waza for that method of training, if you want to walk home that night.

Best,
Ron

xuzen
12-20-2005, 12:06 AM
I don't think the Gracies try and fix the rules to their advantage but they do pick their fights carefully to minimize the possibility of losing.
Many masters do this. The ability to know before hand if they can win or not makes them stand out as masters. Sun-tzu the military sage said, "Know thy enemy; a thousand battle fought, a thousand battle won" The Gracies are smart people.

But the rules lawyers are definitely in play at various MMA events. In UFC for example, you can not knee someone in the face when they shoot for your legs, this puts wrestlers at an advantage against someone trained in Muay Thai or other striking art.
Also, rules are there for safety and crowd pleasing aspect. No legitimate state will sanction a sport if its participant routinely leaves the ring in body bag. Plus, things like these depend on spectator and their willingness to spend money on the tickets, the rules are there to make the sport attractive.

BJJ is no longer the dominate style of fighting for MMA but it is the best style for ground-fighting, they have to cross train to round out their skills just like everyone else.
When BJJ first made appearance at NHB events, many participants are caught unaware of its tactics and strategies. Therefore BJJ'ers swept the medal tally. Now, through research and development many participants and their coach have found BJJ's weakness.

Every martial art has weaknesses that need to be balanced with other types of training. What gets me is the Aikidoka (or any other martial artist) that think their style is perfectly suitable for any type of situation. It simply is not true.
The technical form may not be the end all and be all; but its principles are... as many martial arts in the market.

Originally jujitsu included all this type of training: ground fighting, joint locks, throws, strikes, etc. And I am not talking about the various modern Japanese influenced jujitsu schools that we see today that are pretty much just a weak mixture of karate, judo, and aikido. Jujitsu really does not exist anymore as it was originally practiced.
Guns made jujutsu redundant.

Jujitsu split up into a variety of martial arts specializing in one aspect of fighting. Aikido focuses on joint locks and multiple opponents, Judo on big throws and newaza, BJJ on ground fighting, karate on striking etc. None of these is a complete system, they all have weaknesses in particular situations.
If there is an art that is complete and addresses all scenarios, then we would not have other arts would we?

Judo if practiced exclusively for sport does limit some of the applications of the art as well.
A sport oriented judo dojo will produce mainly athletes, not self defense oriented person. Like you said Michael, cross training in some self defensed focused dojo/centre will produce well rounded martial artist.

But in a style vs. style fight, I think most Aikido and Karate practitioners would be at a disadvantage since they rely on some medium range distance to be successful.
IF being the operative word. Personally, if it is breached... change to jujutsu mode.

Boon.

Michael Neal
12-20-2005, 08:59 AM
Huh...since many of them used kogusoku to dispatch their opponants, I don't think
they would have a problem with working just fine. You may think they are just a museum piece, but
I certainly don't, and I don't think you would if you had much experience with them.

We will just have to disagree, I just don't find much value in training based almost completely on kata.
Judo and its training methods have proven on more than one occasion its superiority over classical jujitsu
when put head to head. There is definatley some cross training value in classical jujitsu but I think
there are better choices out there, including Aikido.

As far as the best comment, judo is pretty much from Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, both
of which are still around. Judo's main innovation is in the area of the type of randori practiced, and that it is
the central feature of the training.

No, Judo encompasses many more styles than that including Fusen-Ryu. Remember Kano brought many jujitsu
masters into Judo, Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu are just the styles that Kano practiced. By the way,
Tenjin Shinyo-ryu did include newaza which Kano originally based much of Judo's ground curriculum from.
later being supplemented by Fusen-Ryu.


Just remove the locks against the joints, the neck breaks, etc., and train what you can train safely.
That doesn't say that the other methods don't work. It does say that to go full out, full resistance,
you don't want to use those other things. That's a far cry from 'these are the best waza'. Those are
the best waza for that method of training, if you want to walk home that night.

Best,
Ron

Again, the neck breaks may be perfectly fine techniques but if you can not train them in some sort of
realistic manner they are not going to be as useful as the techniques you train in randori. Judo still contains
many of these dangerous techniques in its kata but what makes Judo so effective is its live training. The
techniques that you can apply to fully resisting opponents are going to be much more useful to you than techniques
you practice in kata. So the "best waza" are those you can use effectively in a live situation, not the ones that are
the most"deadly." And this goes right into my next point on why classical jujitsu is so archaic, we now live in a society that
would frown on using many of those "neck breaking" techniques, even in self defense.

Here is a quote from Kano on some of the principles behind his system, it is much more than just training techniques
that are safe for randori, it is based on what works.

When I encountered differences in the teaching of techniques, I often found myself
at a loss to know which was correct. This led me to look for an underlying
principle in jujutsu, one that applied when one hit an opponent as well as when one threw him.
After a thorough study of the subject, I discerned an a1l-pervasive principle: to make the most
efficient use of mental and physical energy. With this principle in mind, I again reviewed all
the methods of attack and defense I had learned, retaining only those that were in accordance with
the principle. Those not in accord with it I rejected, and in their place I substituted techniques
in which the principle was correctly applied. The resulting body of technique, which I
named judo to distinguish it from its predecessor, is what is taught at the Kodokan.

Luc X Saroufim
12-20-2005, 09:38 AM
I think BJJ gets more free promotion through these threads than any other martial art.

so true! :D

Aristeia
12-20-2005, 11:11 AM
When BJJ first made appearance at NHB events, many participants are caught unaware of its tactics and strategies. Therefore BJJ'ers swept the medal tally. Now, through research and development many participants and their coach have found BJJ's weakness.


Kind of true, but I think it's less a case of having found BJJs weakness than a case of other people getting their own ground game to a point where they have a chance to utilise other tools. I think if you were to find some of the sprawl and brawlers that are successfully beating BJJers and just grapple with them, you'd be surprised at how good their ground game is. It has to be to deal with those guys. To be familiar enough with take downs they can see them coming early. To have their escapes and reversals at a point where they can keep the fight standing.

In the old days no one knew what to do on the ground and got schooled. Today it's not a case of "oh we've found the secret to beating ground fighters" so much as a case of "we're now good enough at ground fighting ourselves to somewhat neutralise that and take the fight back to where we want it:"

M. McPherson
12-20-2005, 11:12 AM
I would also contend that the best of koryu jujitsu was tried under contest and absorbed into Judo, including those styles that included ground grappling. Existing koryu jujitsu is probably more useful as a museum exhibit than a martial art for the modern world.

Mr. Neal,

Respectfully, that's a pretty broad and inaccurate brush you're painting with. I see the point of your argument that judo randori provides a much more demonstrable avenue of skill application than kata might seem to, and generally agree. There's oft-times no better way to "test" a technique than during the adrenal dump and aerobic torture of randori or a shiai. And I can think of very few koryu grappling exponents who would not recommend off-setting kata study with some freestyle. Just remember that they're, in many ways, two different animals. Kata practice in the koryu is not about demonstration, the kind you'd see at an enbu - it is a means of instruction of potentially injurious or lethal techniques within "safely" proscribed parameters. You can correct me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't part of Kano's intent to provide an avenue of instruction that circumscribed dangerous waza? To provide practitioners of his new art the means of a long life of (relatively) injury-free practice? The koryu can't do that - you put a blade someone's hands, with the intent of teaching them how to kill with that blade, and it's a bit self-defeating to tell your students to have at it to see how well things work, don't you think? Hence, kata. Competition grappling (judo, bjj, etc) have incredible applications beyond shiai, but their combative applications can't touch what koryu jujutsu teach of the same (and have some classical jujutsu ryu become vitiated? Sure. So has a lot of modern stuff)
Re: the above quoted, I think it's fairly parochial to think judo somehow dominated contemporaneous jujutsu ryu, and therefore sent them all packing into irrelevance and extinction by dint of its superior waza. You should head on over to ebudo and check out some of the threads concerning the matter. There's an interesting post (you'll have to do some searching) by a man named Scott Laking, who is actually a member of a branch of Fusen Ryu (still extant and operating, by the way, in Okayama Prefecture). He mentions the point that judo's burgeoning popularity during this time was due to several factors, but mostly a result of social trends, politics, and marketing. It excelled in shiai because this is what it did, but it came about at a time when Japanese society in general was embracing social egalitarianism - the very antithesis of the classical arts. Something else you touched upon, too, but yeah, koryu are tough to find, and most of them prefer it that way. It's just how they're set up. You can't transmit a nonstandardized fighting tradition in anything more than small groups. It just doesn't seem to work.
Please don't read this as a critique of the limitations of judo - I'm a strong proponent of the art, and its training methods (and randori in particular) above most current gendai budo. But to consider that judo is somehow the final, correct form of grappling evolution is, to me, a bit shortsighted. And koryu jujutsu a museum piece? From what I've seen and experienced, hardly. To me, judo and its antecedents are just two wheels on the same cart.

Sincerely,
Murray McPherson

Michael Neal
12-20-2005, 11:40 AM
Murray, I was not trying to say that judo was the end all be all of grappling, and if you read my posts more carefully you will see that I find value in kata training. In fact, Judo has many different katas that demonstrate various classical jujitsu techniques. I am a firm beliver that those Judoka who choose not to practice any of the katas and variations of techniques and strategies for self defense situations, put themselves more at risk for street encounters.

My point however is that those classical styles that do no randori are at a huge disadvantage since they rarely get to test their technique in realistic situations. This was demonstrated in the famous Tokyo Police Tournament, these matches were not like today's judo matches as there were virtually no rules.

The new Kodokan Judo was the centre of public attention. Everyone admired it tenets and slogans and its high idealism. But its practical merits in combat were looked upon with doubts and suspicion and even contempt by old Jujitsu men, including the then outstanding master Hikosuke Totsuka, who commanded a very large following. Naturally there developed a keen rivalry between the Totsuka School and the Kodokan. In 1886, under the auspices of the Chief of Metropolitan Police, a grand tournament was arranged between both schools. This was a decisive battle. Defeat would have been fatal to the Kodokan. But in that tournament, to which each school sent 15 picked men, the Kodokan won all the bouts excepting two which ended in a draw (note: it is tempting to speculate that such contests were more like duels than sporting events, considering the time period). That brilliant victory established once and for all the supremacy of the Kodokan Judo over all Jujitsu schools, not only in principles but also in techniques.

It is also shown in modern matches where arts like Judo and BJJ are very powerful forces in MMA, classical jujitsu is not. The fact is that in order to believe that classical jujitsu is an equal to Judo in effectivenss would take almost blind faith because you would be hard pressed to provide any example or evidence of this other than intellectual theory.


You can read more about Judo history here if you are interested
http://judoinfo.com/history.htm

This is why I have always been an outspoken (to the point of being annoying) advocate of more randori in Aikido because I think it is vital to the effectiveness of the art. If I were an Aikido instructor, regardless of style, I would have at least 15-20 minutes of some form of randori each class.

M. McPherson
12-20-2005, 12:35 PM
Michael,

No, I'm fairly certain I read your posts. The quote I used of yours, however, gave the impression that you feel most of these arts were subsumed by judo because of the results of shiai. Even one like the Tokyo Police tournament. That's a small sample set. And it's historically incorrect (the quote, not the results of the Tokyo shiai). These arts do continue on, and some of them do include randori. Are they as popular as judo? No way, no how. Can they compete with it in popularity. Again no, nor would they want to at this point. (As an aside, many current heads of classical grappling ryu also teach judo on alternate nights, such as Hontai Yoshin Ryu, and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I can't believe that men of such high rank in both arts are doing one versus the other just because they need something to fill the off nights)
Also, you seem to be arguing the irrelevance of classical jujutsu in the modern arena (the literal arena). I'd be strongly inclined to agree. But there are a considerable number of active military and LEO folks who see the strong need for it as a healthy combative balance to the sportive arts. (I'd be happy to provide some online and written resources of such people, if you'd like. Just send me an email)
Many of the jujutsu ryu of the day did, in fact, have randori in their syllabi. Do many of them now? No. Why? Again, judo. I wrote about the rise of judo, and why that was (I should mention that I have no race in this horse. I've very glad judo came about).
Also, read back where I wrote that the putative intent of a koryu practitioner and a judoka are different. No, koryu jujutsu will probably not be as effective as judo within the rules and intent of shiai judo, because the various ryu were not aimed at competition, or fostering a social ideal. You're mistaking apples for oranges if you see their aims as identical. You could also argue it the other way, Michael: it would take a blinding amount of naivete to consider a judoka would do anything but bleed to death quickly when seriously confronting, say, a Takeuchi Ryu adept holding a blade of any size in his hand. So it smacks of logical fallacy to compare what most classical jujutsu ryu would do in a mma arena. You'd have to then wonder how any of the Gracie clan might fare at Sekigahara.
I agree wholeheartedly with you about the need for judoka to have a firm grounding in the kata of the art. I like the judo kata a lot. But watch them side by side with any of the demonstrable kata from Takeuchi Ryu, Araki Ryu, Sosuishitsu Ryu, or any of the other Sengoku jujutsu ryu, and you'll see an appreciable difference in timing, distance, and certainly intent. A very appreciable difference.
Thank you for the link to the JudoInfo site. I've been there many times, and have taken away much. A caveat, though: it is generally agreed upon by those who know far more than me that the site's weak point is its collection of articles dealing with judo history. You can scour the various fora for posts about the matter by the following folks: Ellis Amdur, Steve Delaney, Kit LeBlanc, Russ Ebert (those are some I can remember off the top of my head), or Mark Feigenbaum. They've pointed out some glaring mistakes with regard to judo history on judoinfo, and it provides a necessary balance to the surplus of amazing offerings there.

Best regards,
Murray McPherson

Ron Tisdale
12-20-2005, 12:41 PM
Hi Murray, good to see you posting. I think we're fighting a lost battle here. But it was fun while I had the patience for it.

Best,
Ron

M. McPherson
12-20-2005, 12:48 PM
Hi, Ron.

I'm going to stop posting because I'm probably contributing to some serious thread drift!
Hope you have a great couple of holidays (why, oh why did they have to jam them together like this? My waistline suffers...)!

Best regards,
Murray

Michael Neal
12-20-2005, 12:53 PM
Michael: it would take a blinding amount of naivete to consider a judoka would do anything but bleed to death quickly when seriously confronting, say, a Takeuchi Ryu adept holding a blade of any size in his hand. So it smacks of logical fallacy to compare what most classical jujutsu ryu would do in a mma arena

Now you are getting ridiculous and you know it, hopefully

They've pointed out some glaring mistakes with regard to judo history on judoinfo, and it provides a necessary balance to the surplus of amazing offerings there.

I would love to see a discussion about it, I would like to invite those people you mentioned or anyone else to my judo site http://www.judoholics.com or http://www.judoinfo.com and begin that debate where some Judoka of much more experience than I could participate. I think it would be great debate.

The quote I used of yours, however, gave the impression that you feel most of these arts were subsumed by judo because of the results of shiai. Even one like the Tokyo Police tournament. That's a small sample set. And it's historically incorrect (the quote, not the results of the Tokyo shiai)

The fact is that they were subsumed by Judo due to such competetions, again I welcome the debate about the supposed historical inaccuracies.

M. McPherson
12-20-2005, 12:55 PM
Er, in the longer of my previous posts, I meant to write that I don't have a "horse in this race," not "a race in this horse." I've been trying to fool folks that my dyslexia is currently in remission. So much for that.

M. McPherson
12-20-2005, 01:33 PM
Now you are getting ridiculous and you know it, hopefully.

Hey, thanks for the condescension, Michael. No, I guess I'm living blissfully unaware. Which part of either of my posts (you know, the ones where I repeatedly mentioned that trying to compare the aims of koryu to a gendai, sportive budo is, oh, a bit ridiculous in and of itself) did you skip over?
If you're reading my posts to say that I honestly think that any koryu practitioner would actually ever confront someone one with a knife, then, again, I think you've misread. My point (and I'm considering writing this in florid, large, colored font) is that you can't compare efficacy of one art with another in their respective arena.
I would love to come visit your site, but I'm afraid that this issue (wasn't really much of a debate, as I remember it) has been covered extensively on fora like e-budo and budoseek, at least. No need to reinvent the wheel, unless you're just looking for filler material to get your own board up and running. Good on you for that, but nobody needs another martialist.com. If you're not already, register on the sites I mentioned, and then you'll be able to perform some searches (it's free). Most of those in the know on any of the decent fora are pretty approachable. I would suggest that if you're inviting people to any discussion about that matter that you invite both judoka and koryu folks. Preferably those who have vast experience in both, of which many of the aforementioned do.
By the way, Michael, just what *is* your experience in koryu? You know, 'cuz I'd like to hope (given my abiding faith in humanity) that you're speaking from well-measured experience in the matter, and can actually make comparisons. Me? I have a smattering of experience in both, and try to learn from those who have more. Needless to say, I have a long way to go. Maybe I'll set up a website.

Ron, methinks you're right. Okay, as of now, no more thread drift from me.

Michael Neal
12-20-2005, 02:16 PM
It is really difficult to have a discussion here without people's insecurities showing by either throwing up their hands in frustration or becoming defensive. I am not fighting with you guys, I am just stating my opinion like everyone else.

Hey, thanks for the condescension, Michael. No, I guess I'm living blissfully unaware. Which part of either of my posts (you know, the ones where I repeatedly mentioned that trying to compare the aims of koryu to a gendai, sportive budo is, oh, a bit ridiculous in and of itself) did you skip over?

No condescention by me, I was just stating the fact that bringing swords and knives into the argument is absurd, you can not compare the "deadly" open hand techniques of jujitsu to swords and knives. The fact remains that koryu was defeated repeadly by Judo in contest, I have seen no example of the opposite happening, your argument is purley theoretical and take blind faith to believe. Just because koryu contains techniques that are "too deadly" for competition does not mean that they would win if able to use such techniques, Judo has such techniques as well. What koryu, for the most part, does not have is the live training to make their techniques the most applicable in real life situations. A "safer" Judo technique perfected through years of randori and shiai would be much more likely to succeed in combat than a "deadly" technique practiced only through kata.

would love to come visit your site, but I'm afraid that this issue (wasn't really much of a debate, as I remember it) has been covered extensively on fora like e-budo and budoseek, at least. No need to reinvent the wheel, unless you're just looking for filler material to get your own board up and running. Good on you for that, but nobody needs another martialist.com. If you're not already, register on the sites I mentioned, and then you'll be able to perform some searches (it's free). Most of those in the know on any of the decent fora are pretty approachable.

E-budo is pretty much a traditional/classical oriented site run by a few wannabee ninjas so it it really is not very suprising that they they supposedly reached a conclusion like that. I really have no interest in going to their site, I stopped going there years ago.

Since it is judoinfo.com that the people you mentioned are taking issue with it is only logical that they would go there to make their case. There are very few people at Judoinfo.com that read Aikiweb and E-Budo so I actually find it somewhat cowardly to make their criticisms anywhere else but there. If I had a problem with some inaccuracy at Aikiweb I would take the issue up here.

And you are comparing my site to "The Martialist"?

By the way, Michael, just what *is* your experience in koryu? You know, 'cuz I'd like to hope (given my abiding faith in humanity) that you're speaking from well-measured experience in the matter, and can actually make comparisons. Me? I have a smattering of experience in both, and try to learn from those who have more.

I have absolutely no experience in koryu, I did my research well before choosing an art to practice. I do have about 1 1/2 years of Aikdo and some experience doing Judo kata so I do know the difference between kata and randori and the effectiveness between the two.

Ron Tisdale
12-21-2005, 01:35 PM
It is really difficult to have a discussion here without people's insecurities showing by either throwing up their hands in frustration or becoming defensive. I am not fighting with you guys, I am just stating my opinion like everyone else.

Hi Michael,

It's got nothing to do with insecurites. Sorry you feel that way. We probably just need to accept we differ on these points, and let it go at that.

Best,
Ron

Michael Neal
12-21-2005, 01:44 PM
Ron, I agree it's best just to let it go. But I did do some looking around here and at E-Budo and found nothing to indicate some sort of consensus that the Tokyo police tournament history was innacurate. Direct links would be helpful.

darin
12-21-2005, 02:55 PM
I think the absence of competition in aikido has made it less effective as a "sports" martial art. Maybe by filtering the system of useless techniques and adding punching, kicking and ground fighting you will make a more effective martial art but it won't be aikido anymore.

I am no psychologist but I have met a few bjj, mma and mui thai practicioners who really need therapy. I mean all these guys do is talk about beating the crap out of someone, get in bar fights every weekend and compare scars. They just walk around with that "What the #@%$ you looking at @$%$?" expression on their face. I have never met people like that in aikido, traditional karate, judo or any other classical martial art. I think the spiritual/zen aspect produces calmer, self controlled people who are less likely to get into a violent situation and are easier to get along with.

Kevin Leavitt
12-21-2005, 03:42 PM
I think the spiritual/zen aspect produces calmer, self controlled people who are less likely to get into a violent situation and are easier to get along with.

True to a degree, but many TMA guys also walk around either a world of delusion about what they can really do in a "real fight" (tm), or deep inside know there limitations, but are afraid to face them and use psuedo japanese rituals and philosophy as a shield to hide behind.

I think MMA and TMA both have advantages and disadvantages in training. I train in both methodologies and have grown to appreciate and understand how both methods can help me be a better person and a more effective martial artist.

I am certainly not an advocate of adding in "sport" aspects to aikido as it was not or is not designed to do this, or be an effective fighting system, but a DO or a way to develop you as a person.

MMA methodologies have a whole other focus.

To be honest, in my experiences in dealing with BJJ or MMA and Muay Thai guys, I have not found them to be as you state, but certainly I have not met all of them and I know their are guys out there like you state. I tend to steer clear of them I guess. I wouldn't dismiss these arts based on a few bad apples. I have met plenty of aiki-jerks as well.

Ron Tisdale
12-21-2005, 03:45 PM
Hi Darin,

My experience differs wildly. I've don't hang out with a lot of MMAers, but the few I have met have been gentlemen. No attitudes at all. Don't know what the majority are like.

I have met some REAL peaches in aikido though... ;) Sometimes been one myself...

Best,
Ron

Yo-Jimbo
12-21-2005, 04:36 PM
You must understand though, to beat someone in their game, you must become better in their game.
I totally agree. Remember that there is another option though, don't get drawn into their game. If you draw them into your game where you are better, it also works well.
When I cross trained with our own BJJ club, this is the rule I used when testing what I knew. Even though/because I am a shodan, I started with their least experienced and worked my way up. I knew that if I progressed slowly up through more experienced people that the chance of either of us being injured was greatly lessened. First I used good aikido principles and kept myself safe. When I was convinced that I could keep myself safe against each person if I didn't play be their rules, I would then progress to learning what I could from them by making controlled vulnerabilities and seeing what they would try to do. When I wanted to learn from them, I would immerse myself in their world and rules instead of trying to impose mine. I learned some good things.

Kevin Leavitt
12-22-2005, 10:23 AM
James...I believe your experiences parallel mine. reassimilating all the inbetween stuff between the various "rules" and paradigms between BJJ and Aikido is where much of my own growth, understanding, and learning has taken place.

Ellis Amdur
12-23-2005, 04:34 PM
The oldest schools of grappling extant in Japan are Takenouchi-ryu and Araki-ryu. The kata training (grappling, not longer weapons) focused on iidori - fighting on the knees. This was NOT a simulation of court etiquette. It was a simulation of what happened in the muck. You'd usually be deploying your dagger when you lost your weapon or when you were at grips, both of you hit the ground and continued fighting. There were also techniques on how to kill a downed enemy from your feet. Also mutual standing techniques, but these are stuff like grabbing his collar from behind, yanking him down and stomping on his head.

Originally, there were few "unarmed" kata (even the one just cited - the uke has a blade in his belt to deploy if tori makes a mistake). One of the reasons you don't see a lot of typical throwing techniques - empty-handed - in older jujutsu schools is that everyone did that anyway - in sumo - which was the main form of male recreation, and was practiced in dojos all the time.
In the Edo period, the older grappling arts became jujutsu, which was more self-defense oriented, and focused more and more on defenses from an "inferior" position. Bit-by-bit, free-style grappling became part of practice. Starting like sumo (often on a wooden floor), hitting the deck and trying to lock, choke or break one's opponent. There are accounts of these matches from early Meiji, and they were both crude and violent. Throwing an outsider on a nail sticking up from the floor, or thru the doors into the garden, hopefully right on a rock.

Kano Jigoro came along (insert judo history). Most of the classical schools associated with judo first as a kind of umbrella organization. It provided a safe way to compete and to hone skills in fluid situations. Yes, certain techniques in jujutsu are too dangerous, but this is a straw-dog issue. They are not that hard to replace if deleted for competition. But purely kata trained people often cannot deploy the techniques they know (weapons training is rather different - I'm talking body-to-body here).
In the early days of judo, according to an interview with Yamashita - I think - see E.J. Harrison, can't find the book (one of the four gods of judo) - the strongest guy in East was himself and the strongest in the West was in Takenouchi-ryu. Essentially, what happened next was that younger people lost interest in the kata practicing for dead history situations of a period long ago. Why not just do the shiai training - the judo? The older arts faded. (Enter Takenouchi-ryu young folks in judo shiai now - I've seen most of them - and they'd be creamed).

BJJ - one difference between BJJ and judo is this. BJJ has the best, most sensitive and sophisticated transition game on the ground. One doesn't go for pins - a win in judo. Katame waza in judo have their own value, but because they allow you to win, AND because a lot more techniques are legal in BJJ - there is less subtlety in transitions from one move to another. And the transitional game is the heart and soul of good grappling. I've rolled in judo and BJJ and I've never felt more helpless, as if in the coils of a snake as I do with good BJJ folks. (In judo I trained at the Kodokan and at Tokai University's 5th high school - perenial Japan champions).

As for koryu jujutsu - I do it. Araki-ryu. And I require all my students to also train in wrestling, judo or BJJ, or to already be expert at it. I still do my own cross-training now in modern grappling outside my own group. Several of my students are expert in one or another modern grappling systems, and in randori, without weapons, they destroy me. If they attain a teaching level in Araki-ryu, they will be able to teach the randori, empty-handed component in-house. And there will be no need for extra training elsewhere, except for fun and to supplement.
And yes, we do grappling with weapons and that changes everything. There, the old kata have far more relevance - BUT, the gendai grappling is what makes it live for me, as it did for my own teacher.

Most koryu today no longer has a randori component, except for those schools who also train judo (I do know of a few exceptions - like Fusen-ryu, by the way). And even watching embu, one can usually tell which schools still train randori and which one's don't.
What randori training does is prepare one to fluidly respond to a counter when someone doesn't respond according to kata-plan. A koryu jujutsu person today who doesn't have skills at sumo/judo/wrestling on his feet, and something like BJJ or judo-newaza on the ground is incomplete, unless the equivalent exists in their dojo.

Finally, aikido. It's good too. Not for grappling. For aikido

Best

Kevin Leavitt
12-23-2005, 04:55 PM
Thanks Ellis! Awesome comments and insight. Couldn't agree more!

Michael Neal
12-23-2005, 05:58 PM
I can find no fault in what Ellis just stated, that is exactly the point I was trring to make about classical jujitsu, it has value but often is missing the very important randori element.

Ron Tisdale
01-03-2006, 01:23 PM
Yeah, but somehow when Ellis said it it sounded soooooo different. Why is that?

Best,
Ron

dan guthrie
01-05-2006, 08:29 AM
Okay, so I've got a friend that knows BJJ, which is sometimes *erm* used *erm* against me and my friends at unexpected moments :dead: . I will be starting aikido very soon, but regardless, how does it fair against BJJ (I wouldn't use it against BJJ as described above, but I would like to know none-the-less)?

Many thanks,
Rick

Oh yes, I don't necessarily want to know the stats of when I would encounter a BJJ-ist and have to use aikido against it, but I would like to know the comparison of both, since Aikido was based off of Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu.



If you've already received a good response, ignore my post. I haven't had time to read the entire thread.

If you just want your friend to stop using you as a training dummy, call his dojo and inform the teacher. Don't use your friend's name or your own.
If it doesn't stop, go to the dojo and ask for help countering the BJJ moves your friend is using on you. Identify him as a last resort.

I pities the fool.

rick_tsdmdk
02-09-2011, 07:50 AM
Hello everyone,
thought I might as well add my "two cents"
In physical confrontation a truly dedicated Aikidoka would have the "upper hand" in my opinion. My teacher can stun you in your trackes without even touching you, it sounds far fetched but its true, this comes from his aikido training with Hikitsuchi Hanshi to my understanding. He teaches the use of the mind is very important, that when we have the right mind we can overcome any obstical, such things as "I Tai Ka", and "Zan Shin", "Wa Shin", "Fu Do Shin" and many all come together, and allow to two people to connect on a mental and spirtual level, in this way you can anticipate your opponets rash actions, and very quickly overcome him or her, with little effort, but strong mind.

THIS IS NOT OFFICIAL TEACHING OF TENSHINICHIRYU(tm), FOR MORE INFORMATION VISIT WWW.TENSHINICHIRYU.COM

Yours in :ai: :ki: ,
--Joshua

Do people that study aikido really believe this? The whole no touch knockout, stun me with your mind thing? I am just curious.

lbb
02-10-2011, 08:58 PM
Do people that study aikido really believe this? The whole no touch knockout, stun me with your mind thing? I am just curious.

This is a five-year-old thread. FYI.

rick_tsdmdk
02-18-2011, 10:49 PM
This is a five-year-old thread. FYI.

Yes thank you, I just stumbled upon it. I was not aware that discussions had an expiration date, sorry.

Hebrew Hammer
02-19-2011, 12:33 PM
Yes thank you, I just stumbled upon it. I was not aware that discussions had an expiration date, sorry.

They don't officially Rick, they should probably be locked after a certain amount of time, because most of the participants will not be monitoring or responding to your queries. Its probably best to start a new thread based on your questions or comments. Welcome to the martial arts forums...there are all kinds of interesting unspoken social norms and morays for you to learn about.

Michael Neal
03-03-2011, 08:15 AM
Wow this thread is old, well anyway I apologize for how I came off with my previous posts. I was suffering from unbridled enthusiasm about Judo and Jiu Jitsu. I still love the arts but now have a healthier attitude.