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Michael Neal
07-13-2005, 01:01 PM
I want to start by saying that I practice jiu jitsu myself and think it is a very valuable martial art but this following situation definately shows its weaknesses. it was posted by a BJJ practitioner with a good amount of experience.

I also want to use this as an opportunity for more people to take my previous suggestions to heart, that Aikido would appeal to more people if a bigger effort was made to include more realistic training and randori. Its strength in these type of situations is obvious if you have done any multi attacker Aikido randori. However, Aikido training must contain these elements on a regular basis to be effective in surviving this kind of attack in my view.

I wouldn't call it a fight, but we were on the sidewalk, which is pretty close to a street in most areas.

An altercation flames up out of nowhere, and before we know it, myself and 5 of my buddies from my jiujitsu academy are backing cautiously away from a group of 12+ hispanic fellows.

As I back away trying to keep an eye on everyone, I run right into a fucking TREE. clock my head pretty good and realize instantly that I am completely fucked. A guy dives in from my left and socks me good in the eye, got a nice shiner now, and I react instantly, bum rushing the nearest guy in front of me. I clinch up tight to protect my face from more punches, and drag him back with me, I can feel people hitting the top and back of my head but it doesn't matter.

A few seconds later I shove the guy away from me and break free of the melee. My friends have also broken away, and one suffered a nasty cut under his eye from a punch.

We retreat a few blocks and I notice my side is drenched, probably beer from the cans they chucked at us (which is what started this whole mess) I thought. Then I looked at my hand and it was covered in blood. I lift up my shirt and reveal much to my surprise:

I had been fucking stabbed. Right over my liver, actually.


So during my visit to the ER I learn that they also shanked me in the right thigh, and after extensive testing, x-rays, ultrasounds, cat-scans, it turns out I am a-ok. The knife didn't get through my abdominal muscles, and no organs were damaged. The muscle in my thigh was pretty well fucked up though. Anyway a few stitches later I get released, and told to take it easy and "eat lots of protein."


Interestingly, while I was in there a mexican dude came in with, guess what, a stab wound. When aksed by the nurses where this happened he replied with what was an obvious stuttering lie. My friend broke in, saying "Are you sure it wasn't [street we were on]?" and the guy freaked, so he was obviously involved, his buddies must have stabbed him by accident. I'm betting it was the guy I clinched.



Some thoughts:


-This was a nice neighborhood, about 2 blocks from downtown. Fucked up.
-Jiujitsu is great, but the surprise knife attack is superior.
-I have jiujitsu to thank for the musculature that probably saved my life, or at least kept me out of surgery. Those hanging situps pay off.
-If I hadn't clinched that guy, the knife that hit him would have hit me, and god knows where. Without him as a human shield they would have had an open look at my chest, and could easily have got me in the heart or lungs.
-Don't be a fool, stay in school.

DustinAcuff
07-13-2005, 01:34 PM
Great story. Shows alot of truth. Never expect to leave a knife fight without stitches. Good example of how things can turn intresting quickly.

I disagree that if more schools were reality based that there would be more of a following. Including private students my sensei has only 30ish and no more than 8 at once except for very rare occasions. He has been in the same spot for a number of years, and was active in the community as a bouncer of good reputation. The more quality is taught the fewer people believe it simply because it does not conform to normally accepted truths. I wish you were right, but atleast in this case you are not.

bkedelen
07-13-2005, 01:40 PM
There is no weakness in BJJ, it builds better people, just like Aikido.

bkedelen
07-13-2005, 01:46 PM
I agree with Dustin, if you fight with people, do not be suprised when you get stabbed or shot. It takes two to tango. We train not just to learn to tango better, but to know when to leave the dance.

stratos patsakis
07-13-2005, 06:42 PM
when people ask me about knife fighting i aswer them if you can run away it's the better thing to do!i believe that you need many years of experience and practise to deal with a guy that holds a knife!the training in the dojo with a plastic knife is nothing!you need a lot of practise and experience!and if the guy knows to manage the knife you are fucked up!most people with knifes attack in the front to stab you.the people who know about knifes make cuts like the number 8 and it is very dangerous.they cut all the dangerous spots at human body...so stay away from knifes.one good way of training knife fighting is to wear black t-shirts and take instead of knife that white thing they use in schools to write in the blackboard i don't know the word in english!if you manage to write the other person's t-shirt then he needs more practise in knife fighting!

Roy
07-13-2005, 11:25 PM
I'm not so sure that sport like"randori" in Aikido would be a good idea, particularly with Sankyo techniques. Because man, there sure would be allot of sore arm joints!! But, I most definitely agree that Aikido should have a realistic street based approach to its training. Which is tragically lacking in many Aikido dojos.

Dirk Hanss
07-14-2005, 02:57 AM
I'm not so sure that sport like"randori" in Aikido would be a good idea, particularly with Sankyo techniques. Because man, there sure would be allot of sore arm joints!! But, I most definitely agree that Aikido should have a realistic street based approach to its training. Which is tragically lacking in many Aikido dojos.

Roy, I agree upon randori tournaments having some disadvantages. I have a vague idea of good Aikido randori events - not championships. But I need some time and more experience to make them public.

But I do not think that Aikido dojo should generally focus on "realistic street based approach". If you teach street fighting, you will get street fighters. That is ok, where necessary, i.e. police, armed forces etc. But there you can have extra cross border training with street fight aspects.

For most of the others good self defense practise should be enough. Yes, maybe some more than most dojo offer.

And while you may argue that everyone may be confronted with a real street fight situations with experienced street fighters. I have to agree, there is a chance, but I do not think that the chance of facing a real gun fight situation with auto- or semi-auto weapons.

Does that mean, that every Aikido dojo should teach realistic fight situations with M16, uzi, etc.?

Regards Dirk

Yann Golanski
07-14-2005, 03:18 AM
Just to clarify things... randori as practiced by us Shodokan folks is to help us learn Aikido against a strong and vigorous Resistance. It has nothing to do with sport. Because we don't want people to break bones or die (both happened) we have some rules more to do with safety than anything else. Still, it's hard word and shows you where your Aikido is lacking.

Shiai is randori used within a sport context with points, referees and a plastic cup at the end. It it not something that is taught in Shodokan dojo, you have to go out and do it yourself. Only way to learn.

Would any of this have helped whoever got stabbed in Michael Neal's story?... I have no idea. Would a stab proof vest have helped? I bet! http://www.stabproofvest.co.uk/sitemap/ in case you wanted to get one...

Michael Neal
07-14-2005, 07:04 AM
Maybe Aikido would not have worked in this situation but I don't believe grappling with someone when there are 9 other attackers is ideal. The randori I am talking about is multi attacker randori and not so much to actually throw people but to just get the hell away and deflect some of the initial attacks to avoid being overwhelmed. I think Aikido randori excels in that context, and what I was trying to say is that this is a unique thing that Aikido has to offer and it should capitalized on more.

L. Camejo
07-14-2005, 09:06 AM
Maybe Aikido would not have worked in this situation but I don't believe grappling with someone when there are 9 other attackers is ideal. The randori I am talking about is multi attacker randori and not so much to actually throw people but to just get the hell away and deflect some of the initial attacks to avoid being overwhelmed. I think Aikido randori excels in that context, and what I was trying to say is that this is a unique thing that Aikido has to offer and it should capitalized on more.
I think Michael has a good point.

Having survived a very similar situation to the one in the story, situational awareness, distancing and positioning are key in multiple attacker situations imho. I think the point about situational awareness was most highlighted where the narrator of the story said he backed into a tree and bumped his head and the attackers took that interval of distraction to jump him.

The story also says something about adrenalisation (something I think any self defence training needs to address) where the narrator runs a few blocks before realising he is stabbed. I think this is an area where competitive type practice with serious resistance can have a positive effect. As one becomes more conditioned to dealing with a certain degree of adrenal response from resistance training that has a certain degree of "danger", then one tends to be more predisposed to executing the most appropriate response to the situation (including running away) instead of the typical freeze response as the higher level brain crashes while trying to process data in the midst of the chaos.

Most of the BJJ, JJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, and Aikido folks I know who engage in some sort of serious resistance randori/sparring practice tend not to freeze when adrenalisation occurs, but respond differently. I think this may have something to do with training in an environment where one becomes accustomed to facing serious resistance and also understand how one's own body and mind reacts when faced with this sort of resistance and even danger.

Of course none of this is guaranteed fact.;) But from my understanding, "reality-based" self defence systems like RMCAT utilise Aikido-like evasion and positioning tactics as seen in multiple attacker randori. Of course it is tailored to teaching effective self defence in a short period so there is no philosophy here except to survive.

Personally I think Nike Defence (aka Run like hell) is a great technique for multiple attackers, assuming you can outrun your fastest attacker of course.;)

LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
07-14-2005, 12:33 PM
1. There are no rules.
2. He who was the most buddies will pretty much always win regardless of your skill level.
3. Never go to a gun fight with a knife, never go to a knife fight with empty hand.
4. Don't fight within the paradigm of your training, use every available "weapon" at your disposal.
5. Refer to rule #1...there are no rules.
6. Use common sense, don't fight if the odds are not in your favor, better to retreat and live for another day, then to stand there and take a beating.
7. Always assume that you are out skilled, out numbered, or out weaponed. Therefore, don't fight unless you have to.
8. Get more friends, police or help to even the odds.

This is much better than any randori you could practice in any martial art, it is cheap (as all advice is :)...easy (except on you ego), and easily implemented by all!

I don't think empty hand training does much for you if you are out numbered, or out weaponed.

Other than that...i pretty much agree with Larry. Not sure what adding realistic randori would accomplish in aikido that would greatly enhance your ability to survive a multiple opponent situation to be quite honest. It is nice to practice in principle, but you are living in la la land if you really think you can beat multiple opponents. If you do...you got lucky for some reason!

There is no holy grail that will prepare you to win or survive a multiple opponent situation as far as empty hand is concerned.

Kevin Leavitt
07-14-2005, 12:35 PM
oh yea...get a stab proof vest like Yann recommended, wear it all the time so you are always prepared. :) Much more effective as a martial art for self defense.

bkedelen
07-14-2005, 12:38 PM
I disagree with #4. You always want to play to your own strengths. If you are not a groundfighter, DO NOT go outside the paradigm of your art and go to the ground. You will be ownaged. That is not to say that you should not be willing to adapt to and utilize your environment, but your training is all you really have, do not abandon it.

Kevin Leavitt
07-14-2005, 12:51 PM
Benjamin, I am going to "pull guard" on your post and take it to the ground :)

you might want to abandon your training if it is not appropriate for the situation, or if it really sucks for multiple opponent/weapons environment...which all empty hand arts basically suck at..which is the basis of my post.

bkedelen
07-14-2005, 01:48 PM
Although I know what you mean, my training has permeated every aspect of how I function, and as an Aikidoka, the only way I could abandon it would be to attempt to grapple, kick, or apply weapons with which I have no training (do not pick up that three section staff). It seems to me that when facing armed/multiple opponents, attempting to grapple, kick, or use unfamiliar weapons would put me at a disadvantage compared with other options like running away, getting into a car, or even trying my techniques. In any case, there is no thinking involved when faced with such a situation. Unlike the examples in modern entertainment, we do not manifest emergent properties when faced with conflict, we simply react in the way we have been taught. Your training is your animal-brain response, and you will not be able to abandon it because there will be no thinking involved.

Michael Neal
07-14-2005, 02:24 PM
I don't think the randori would train you to beat mutiple opponents but maybe to survive the initial attack and get away while many people are swinging at you.

L. Camejo
07-14-2005, 03:24 PM
There is no holy grail that will prepare you to win or survive a multiple opponent situation as far as empty hand is concerned.
I think this is very true.

LC:ai::ki:

DustinAcuff
07-14-2005, 03:49 PM
Dirk, I disagree that if you train for reality that you will produce street fighters. If you train for reality you can do techniques on people who not only are not cooperating, you can do techniques on people who want to rip your head off. Maybe not any specific technique you want but they will be neutralized.

I agree that using anything at your disposal is a good idea. I have been taught to use everything from a quarter to a business card to a broken broom handle to defend myself and to do so without striking. If an engagement happens and you happen to see something that could be used as a weapon, go for it.

I disagree that multiple attackers are impossible. In our randori we don't stop until every uke is dead or out of the game or neutralized in some way. Sensei is quite famous in town for having to deal with a 20 man bar-riot with only one other bouncer and walking away relatively unharmed. Few of the rioters could say that though. If your only goal is to throw the uke's through the air then I will happily agree with you but if you want to lock them up or remove them then it is very possible. Multiples is an ability that can be developed over time, not something you can do just because you have earned -kyu or -dan X.

That said, I firmly believe that one cannot and will not attain proficiency (and all the nifty abilites that come with it) enought to apply this art 100% in the real world until every bit of training becomes a conditioned response. I keep hearing from sensei that if you want to be fast and fluid it takes 1000 times a day, and from someone who has been doing this for his entire life I believe it.

Roy
07-14-2005, 06:04 PM
to be completely honest, I don't think any martial art would prepare "me" to deal what that guy had to deal with. Bottom line for me is, he was very lucky he did not get killed. I realize this may irrelevant, but perhaps joining anti street violence/gang advocates is the strongest weapon to stop that kind of bullshit described above.

Kevin Leavitt
07-15-2005, 08:45 AM
I agree Roy. Sometimes our martial training prepares us to be strong as good citizens and stand up and say "we are not taking this crap any more". To me, this would be a good use of budo.

Kevin Leavitt
07-15-2005, 08:51 AM
Wonder why I have never seen a video on the web showing someone defeating upwards to 20 dudes without eating it in the end? Seems like by now we'd be able to capture footage of some bad ass that could do that. He'd be a millionaire cause he'd sell many, many tapes, books etc.

Not saying that someone might not fair better than another, or not be able to get out of the door, or escape the altercation to live another day. Training is good for that. But, I seriously doubt that there many...if any that could soundly defeat 20 dudes in a "real fight (tm)" like in the movies and stand around a pile of bodies.

No disrespect to your sensei...I am just not a believer since the stories are many, but the proof is few and far in between.

I wouldn't hang my hat on my sensei's success as an indication that what he teaches, or what you are learning will one day allow you to defeat multiple opponents, or give you a "get out of jail free" card. There ain't no holy grail.

Sometimes you're the bug and sometimes your the windshield.

Yann Golanski
07-15-2005, 08:56 AM
I can defeat 20 duds in a fight thanks to my trusty general electrics mini gun!

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_20052123.asp

Yadda yadda yadda yadda... Now I have a machine gun... HO! HO! HO!

Yann, the mad shodothug.

Roy
07-15-2005, 06:10 PM
Realistic view Kevin! I thing we get the idea that martial arts can almost be inviseble to that sort of thing, from waching Hollywood movies.

DustinAcuff
07-15-2005, 11:56 PM
I agree with everyone. Just b/c sensei did it once don't mean I can, when I'm 80 years old I hope to be half as skilled as he is. Don't take unbelievable stuff on heresay: I don't, I know people who were there. I think anit-gang groups are probably a good idea, but having grown up in the Southeast US where there are no gangs and seeing the results of anti-gang groups in California I tend to think they are a waste of time.

Kevin, I agree completely, there ain't no holy grail. But I do believe that the more you train the more likely you are to survive when things get ugly.

DustinAcuff
07-16-2005, 12:20 AM
Just an observation: the situation I speak of with my sensei may have been misconstrued a little bit.

It was a riot against something or another with around 20 beer'd up people, sensei was responsible for helping the other guy quell the riot and keep things as undercontrol as possible.
They were not all attacking sensei at the same time, I doubt they were anywhere close to organized.
Coincidering the space allowed, at the most he might have had 3 people at once and their ability to attack was questionable.
I never claimed that he put down the riot or that he took down each and every one, just that he walked away with no permanent injuries and the majority of the rioters did not.
The bar is in downtow, I suspect it was a matter of minutes before the police arrived.

I can see why it looked like BSing, but I was trying to make the point that multiple attackers is not an impossibility that you only walk away from if you are lucky. Lucky is the a gun in your face and the dude pulls the trigger and the round is a dud. As far as I've been able to determine, at best only 1-2 people can attack you at a time unless you get someone behind you, but you can't have 4 people come at you at the same time, they will get themselves tangled up and you can do quite a bit to help them stay that way.

L. Camejo
07-16-2005, 10:08 AM
Hi Dustin,

I've heard of a theory being propagated that at any one time you can only have 4 people attacking simultaneously (one from each side of your body and front and back) without running the risk of hitting each other or getting in each other's way, hence if one can handle four simultaneous attackers one can theoretically handle any amount. Of course this is just theory.:)

I also agree with the point about your Sensei not having to personally take down each and every single attacker (which is just a silly waste of energy imo). To me, this approach often comes from a very limited view of multiple attacker tactics that tends to come from those accustomed with the one-on-one only fighting systems and scenarios. My Judo, Karate and TKD students tend most to have this problem of trying to engage and deal with each attacker personally aand getting crowded instead of utilising timing, kuzushi, positioning, attack rhythm, space and your attackers' bodies as shields or projectiles against each other.

In my own 8 person mugging situation all I had to do (luckily) to keep the group in check was to fully off balance and control the initiator and use him as an effective shield/projectile for my own defence. In the end his pals did more damage to him than I did.

Kevin, I agree completely, there ain't no holy grail. But I do believe that the more you train the more likely you are to survive when things get ugly.
I think the above quote is absolutely true. I know if not for the training I did the stuation would have been very different with me being hospitalized if lucky. This was the result for other people who got attacked that waay on that same day.

Train hard, be safe folks.
LC:ai::ki:

Red Beetle
07-19-2005, 12:46 AM
Michael Neal,

I don't think that BJJ shows weakness in multiple attacker situations.
I recently challenged a guy to fight when he came into my dojo saying the same thing. He was uneducated in BJJ, and he quickly apologized and retracted his statement. Why was I quick to challenge this guy? Because I have used BJJ in fights when I found myself outnumbered 3 to one, sometimes even more and won easily.

When several people do not know how to fight, and they decide they are going to jump you, they are still at a disadvantage if they are going up against a skilled fighter with a systematic plan. Gracie Jiu-jitsu gives you such a plan, and a realistic one at that.

Just because one guy makes a mistake in mathematics, don't rule out mathematics for that particular situation. The same holds for Jiu-jitsu. Just because one guy didn't do so hot, and it sounds like Jiu-jitsu saved his life considering he had little to no help from his friends, don't rule it out all together.

When I was attacked, I quickly threw one attacker after the next with O-goshi. Two more who were considering helping their buddies saw this and quickly backed down when I faced them. I threw the other guys a bit more, and very quickly they decided that bouncing off the ground was little fun. But wait, Red Beetle, I didn't think that throwing was Brazilian Jiu-jitsu specialty! Well, glad you brought that up, because Relson Gracie and Rorion Gracie was the guys who showed me how to engaged multiple attackers with Jiu-jitsu while standing. When I clinched one guy, I quickly shot my hips across his front and tossed him, but I tossed him toward one of his buddies, this took care of two of them leaving me one to quickly handle one on one. I literally piled them up on top of each other at one point. None of the guys were physically hurt, and I was not hurt in the exchange as well. I had a friend, also BJJ, who watched, but did not interfere. He claimed he would have helped out if "things got out of control."

If you get a chance to use Aikido on multiple attackers, then I say go to it. If they close the range, then you better know some Judo or Jiu-jitsu, or your done.

One of my friends, a purple belt under Marc Laimon, recently whipped three guys at the same time while two other guys were jumping on his buddy. It was 5 on two. He and his friend are bouncers. The three that jumped him all ended up choked out. He took care of them one at a time even though they insisted on attacking him at once. It is not hard to kick a guy when he is that close to your buddy, people forget this. His friend, on the other hand, who had only limited training in grappling, but studied Muy Thai, went to the hospital. There were over 20 witnesses, and no one offered to help. How's that for reality. When it comes down to it, even in public, you better know how to fight. Remember, like Royce Gracie says, a black belt only covers two inches of your butt, you have to cover the rest.

This is why challenge matches are good. You need to test yourself from time to time.

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

Michael Neal
07-19-2005, 07:53 AM
If you get a chance to use Aikido on multiple attackers, then I say go to it. If they close the range, then you better know some Judo or Jiu-jitsu, or your done.

I agree with that

Roy
07-20-2005, 01:05 PM
I'm not so sure that the altercation described (12 to 1), shows that their is weakness in BJJ.

Sirhoward90
11-01-2010, 12:27 PM
But what if you face 4 competent attackers, who surround you and all grab and control you at the same time? I haven't been able to think of anything in jiu jitsu that accounts for that. We had a demonstration a little while back and we had a 2nd degree karate black belt volunteer to try out 3 attackers. He had said he worked on multiple attacker drills, and he was confident that 3 attackers (especially considering 2 of us weren't even 4th kyu yet) wouldn't be a problem. It took us 3 seconds to immobilize him. He tried to hip toss one of us, but by the time his technique was being executed, the other 2 had ahold of him. In a situation with more than 1 attacker. My personal opinion is that the only thing you can do to stay alive is move. Get out of there. If they chase you then try some technique, but all for the point of getting out of there. It's very easy to be killed in multiple attacker situations. Scary stuff.

DonMagee
11-01-2010, 12:35 PM
The guy telling the story lived, he fended off a attack by superior numbers with superior weaponry and he escaped.

I call that winning. He did as well, if not better then most martial artists can hope for.

Randall Lim
11-01-2010, 05:42 PM
I want to start by saying that I practice jiu jitsu myself and think it is a very valuable martial art but this following situation definately shows its weaknesses. it was posted by a BJJ practitioner with a good amount of experience.

I also want to use this as an opportunity for more people to take my previous suggestions to heart, that Aikido would appeal to more people if a bigger effort was made to include more realistic training and randori. Its strength in these type of situations is obvious if you have done any multi attacker Aikido randori. However, Aikido training must contain these elements on a regular basis to be effective in surviving this kind of attack in my view.

In my opinion, Aikido is;

50% Philosophy & Spirituality
30% Mental Development
20% Practical Effectiveness.

Physical techniques are only a small aspect for Aikido and should never be emphasised more than it should be.

If practical effectiveness is what one is solely looking for, then Aikido is not what one should pursue. Try other Japanese martial arts which contain "Jitsu" in their names or any others.

Budd
11-01-2010, 06:38 PM
In my opinion, Aikido is;

50% Philosophy & Spirituality
30% Mental Development
20% Practical Effectiveness.

Physical techniques are only a small aspect for Aikido and should never be emphasised more than it should be.

If practical effectiveness is what one is solely looking for, then Aikido is not what one should pursue. Try other Japanese martial arts which contain "Jitsu" in their names or any others.

I believe what you are describing is AIKIDO TM as it's largely practiced, today. There are others that are interested in aikido as a means of the Founder's simplified version of Daito ryu, guided by his own religious principles - even as he encouraged others to find their "own" aiki-do.

Michael Neal
11-01-2010, 07:01 PM
wow, this is an old thread.

Still agree that Aikido randori is the best for this type of situation plus some striking art experience.

Chris Evans
11-01-2010, 11:38 PM
1. don't get "hit" first.
2. "hit" first, where it counts.
3. leave no trace.

Chris Evans
11-02-2010, 12:12 AM
1. don't get "hit" first.
2. "hit" first, where it counts.
3. leave no trace.

If your're ambushed then you retreat. If you can not prevent violence then defuse it, but If it must be then it must be worth fighting for (a.k.a. "self-defense") with all that you have, worth the risk of life-time of injury, disability, or death.

So, then if you must fight, "hit" hard first. If they take you down you get up. Ideally you'll have to "hit" with penetrating bullets, along with a CCW Permit, or sharp knife or a small baseball bat, or cane, etc. -- an effective weapon.

If all you have is empty hands then hit hard and break the felons' will and means of violence.

Now, try to survive the law (criminal and tort) and any revenge attacks to you or your dependents.

Aikido's sounding pretty useful, and so is Judo or Jiujitsu, but Karate (gungfu) offers techniques at the furtherest contact distance, esp. with leg or knee kicks.

There is no honor in fighting, there's only degrees of survival. But there is honor in deterring a fight through Budo preparation.

Aikido is one among an array of good Budo, assuming, you have a practical instructor and handful of advanced students that can handle pain and fear in training, just like any other Budo art.

Delusionary mindsets and practices abound, esp. among the more "educated." I must admit though, BJJ people seems to be among the most grounded (no pun intended).

Randall Lim
11-02-2010, 06:42 AM
If your're ambushed then you retreat. If you can not prevent violence then defuse it, but If it must be then it must be worth fighting for (a.k.a. "self-defense") with all that you have, worth the risk of life-time of injury, disability, or death.

So, then if you must fight, "hit" hard first. If they take you down you get up. Ideally you'll have to "hit" with penetrating bullets, along with a CCW Permit, or sharp knife or a small baseball bat, or cane, etc. -- an effective weapon.

If all you have is empty hands then hit hard and break the felons' will and means of violence.

Now, try to survive the law (criminal and tort) and any revenge attacks to you or your dependents.

Aikido's sounding pretty useful, and so is Judo or Jiujitsu, but Karate (gungfu) offers techniques at the furtherest contact distance, esp. with leg or knee kicks.

There is no honor in fighting, there's only degrees of survival. But there is honor in deterring a fight through Budo preparation.

Aikido is one among an array of good Budo, assuming, you have a practical instructor and handful of advanced students that can handle pain and fear in training, just like any other Budo art.

Delusionary mindsets and practices abound, esp. among the more "educated." I must admit though, BJJ people seems to be among the most grounded (no pun intended).

Aikido's philosophy, or any other true Budo, is to protect your enemy or leave him unharmed even while defending from his attacks.

This is of a very high calling, thus extremely difficult to achieve unless one has reached spiritual enlightenment.

Lorel Latorilla
11-02-2010, 07:16 AM
Aikido's philosophy, or any other true Budo, is to protect your enemy or leave him unharmed even while defending from his attacks.

This is of a very high calling, thus extremely difficult to achieve unless one has reached spiritual enlightenment.

How are you preparing yourself for this very high calling?

Richard Stevens
11-02-2010, 07:53 AM
It's pointless to get into the whole "this art is better than that art" debate, however, the poster does have a point in regard to training. The full force Randori BJJ and Judo practitioners do help prepare them for resistance in a real-life situation. However, this would be far more dangerous in an Aikido dojo and would certainly result in a big increase in injuries.

Judo/BJJ techniques allow you to go full-contact and know that you probably aren't going to seriously injure your training partner as long as they have good ukemi and know when to tap. Many Aikido techniques just don't lend themselves well to this kind of training. Sankyo can go from lock to spiral-break far faster than someone can tap. You would need to limit the techniques to those that are safe.

With that being said learning to move around multiple attackers moving at full speed would certainly help people in a violent encounter. Some dojos may already be doing it this way. If not it would simply be a matter of them cranking it up a notch, if that is how they wanted to train.

This topic made me think of the Randori Seagal was putting his students through in the Path Beyond Thought. Some may have found it inappropriate, but I thought it was good training. Of course I grew up with a USMC drill instructor for a father...;)

Kevin Leavitt
11-02-2010, 12:57 PM
Aikido's philosophy, or any other true Budo, is to protect your enemy or leave him unharmed even while defending from his attacks.

This is of a very high calling, thus extremely difficult to achieve unless one has reached spiritual enlightenment.

I am not so sure that this is aikido or budo's philosophy..that is specifically as you state...that is, to protect of leave your enemy unharmed.

I think that might be your own personal value/goal etc...but not necessarily the goal of budo.

I would agree that this is extremely difficult if not next to impossible...especially since your enemy's intent is on harming or killing you.

To me, it evokes the Koan..."Do no harm, Stop Harm".

I think that koan is well known for a reason.

For me, I think the purpose of budo is along the lines of what is talked about in the Book of Five Rings.

That is being Prepared, and doing what is necessary.

Being prepared has alot meanings. Being mentally, spiritually, and physically prepared. Having the right tools, having situational awareness...a clear mind...those kinda things.

Making the best possible decision based on the input given..

Using the appropriate amount of force....

Aikido/budo can do alot of things for us in this area...things that are acheivable in our lifetime...and things that are not near impossible to achieve such as "doing no harm...no matter what" to our enemy.

Budo can show us how to better ourselves, can teach us alot about "self" and expand our ability to see things that we may not have seen before and make better, more informed choices. It can help us be more compassionate, less angry...etc.

All those things can help us make good choices.

However, in the end...we may find that we must use force and cause harm....and that may be the right choice given the circumstances.

It does not mean we have failed at all if we use force. It may be the right choice and one that is well with in the realm and ethics of budo.

Chris Evans
11-02-2010, 01:10 PM
Aikido's philosophy, or any other true Budo, is to protect your enemy or leave him unharmed even while defending from his attacks.

This is of a very high calling, thus extremely difficult to achieve unless one has reached spiritual enlightenment.

That could be be a dangerously idealistic when loved ones lives are in danger. That sounds like some hopeful Aikido idealism, not necessarily that of "Budo."

I say be of no mind, "mushin," and hit with doing what's safest to the innocents in stopping the felony-in-progress.

So, not fighting with your ego's paramount.

spiritual enlightenment would be see the danger and prevent or deter that violence before it happens or hit so effectively that the violent mind no longer exists.

fyi
http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/

An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it is also more nourishing.
H. L. Mencken

Kevin Leavitt
11-02-2010, 01:35 PM
Chris Evans wrote:

If your're ambushed then you retreat. If you can not prevent violence then defuse it, but If it must be then it must be worth fighting for (a.k.a. "self-defense") with all that you have, worth the risk of life-time of injury, disability, or death.


Hey Chris, Just a few comments...

In my experiences, if you are ambushed, the worse thing you can do most of the time is retreat. The default statistically should be the opposite actually...that is to "push" into the fight to regain what you lost.

Hard to explain here, but by definition, an ambush means that your opponent has "suprised" you and has the cards, so to speak. He has already accounted for your "backward" movement and moving away, simply gives him more ground to continue to bring the fight to you.

The best strategy typically is to "ACT" in someway to disrupt his pattern of attack forcing him to deal with that. When you disrupt his fight tempo/attack...then he must respond to that and abandon his plan.

Your goal is to "get ahead" of his decision cycle and force him to react to you.

Running area..giving ground, or avoiding...usually will simply put you further behind in the process. However, these are my experiences in dealing with ambushes, other's might have different ones.

As far as "diffusing violence"...that is not really your option if the fight was brought to you...you can control your actions..and indeed your actions may influence your opponents...but ultimately he makes up his own mind how he responds.

The point I guess I am trying to make is that "diffusing violence" is a conceptual/philosophical notion...and in the end when people meet in a violent situation...they make their own choices and we must keep that in mind first and foremost.

We cannot control how they respond ultimately, we can only control how we respond. If they are hell bent on hurting us, no matter how much we may ethcially feel about violence and the desire to "diffuse" it...He may not share that feeling or see/visualize or understand the situation as you see it.

So, to me...the concept of diffusion, redirecting, or resolving it peacefully may not be an option at all. That choice was one that was made by your opponent at some point when he chose to pursue a violent/lethal path.

What we must do, in line with my post above...it prepare ourselves to make sure we have done as much as we can to correctly and accurately read the situation and make a decision to commit to an action in a timely matter. This assumes, of course, that we are living right and are not the one that is acting as the "bad guy".

"making sure it is worth fighting for". I agree. a big part of budo is reaching an understanding of what our "triggers" are and what is worth fighting for. For me, if I am in a fight, it is because my opponent/enemy decided to cause harm to me. So, it really is no issue for me to ponder the use of force nor do I concern myself with the risk to myself...as that choice was made for me by my opponent and I am simply reducing the risk that he has decided to expose me to.

There is no honor in fighting, there's only degrees of survival. But there is honor in deterring a fight through Budo preparation.


I think there is honor in fighting. That is, when you are fighting to protect. that is, fighting to protect others from harm. We need people that are willing to stand up for what is right and just in the world. We need people that have courage to stop those that intend to use force, fear and power to harm others. There is honor in that.

I agree however, that fighting or using violence simply for the sake of fighting...there is no honor or justification.

As far as deterring violence through budo and preparation. Absolutely. I am a firm believer that if we prepare ourselves and have the willingness, ability, courage, and strength to stand up to those that intend to harm us...then we can quite possibly deter violence. I really believe that. However, it is not always possible to do this as you state.

For me...as far as laws and legalities and all the technicalities that go with that. Never a concern for me. I try to live a good and decent life and do the right things. If I have to fight. I simply fight and do what I feel is necessary and appropriate at that time. I do believe as a budoka...if I live properly...then it really becomes a non-issue.

Good stuff...thanks for sharing and posting!

Budd
11-02-2010, 02:38 PM
This thread highlight's the "weakness" of BJJ about as much as a falling tree shows its "weakness" to gravity :rolleyes:

Chris Evans
11-02-2010, 02:55 PM
This thread highlight's the "weakness" of BJJ about as much as a falling tree shows its "weakness" to gravity :rolleyes:

This thread highlight's the "weakness" of that particular BJJ budoka and I am grateful for him sharing.

Chris Evans
11-02-2010, 03:05 PM
Chris Evans wrote:

Hey Chris, Just a few comments...

In my experiences, if you are ambushed, the worse thing you can do most of the time is retreat. The default statistically should be the opposite actually...that is to "push" into the fight to regain what you lost.

Hard to explain here, but by definition, an ambush means that your opponent has "suprised" you and has the cards, so to speak. He has already accounted for your "backward" movement and moving away, simply gives him more ground to continue to bring the fight to you.

The best strategy typically is to "ACT" in someway to disrupt his pattern of attack forcing him to deal with that. When you disrupt his fight tempo/attack...then he must respond to that and abandon his plan.

Your goal is to "get ahead" of his decision cycle and force him to react to you.

Running area..giving ground, or avoiding...usually will simply put you further behind in the process. However, these are my experiences in dealing with ambushes, other's might have different ones.
!

In an ambush where contact's inevitable, better to fight now then to run and die tired. In an ambush of personal, non-military, nature where you have room to retreat then disappear (and prepare to be a good witness, if do-able).

All in all, I'm mostly in agreement with Kevin. My haste to post may not read as such.

A Budo teacher can only teach you some of the skillsets, but you must really teach yourself.

When you see the Budda on the Road, "Kill" It, don't follow It: Become your own Budda, learn what you may then seek your own path..

Chris Evans
11-02-2010, 04:36 PM
The guy telling the story lived, he fended off a attack by superior numbers with superior weaponry and he escaped.

I call that winning. He did as well, if not better then most martial artists can hope for.

An excellent obseration.

Andrew Macdonald
11-02-2010, 09:46 PM
i am kinda at a loss to see how this story shows a weakness in BJJ. what is the weakness? that he couldn;t take on more than 12 guys.

is the OP implying that aikido prepares people to do that?

at the end of the story he got away with only a couple of stab wounds to non vital parts. thats a win in my book

Randall Lim
11-03-2010, 01:35 AM
I am not so sure that this is aikido or budo's philosophy..that is specifically as you state...that is, to protect of leave your enemy unharmed.

I think that might be your own personal value/goal etc...but not necessarily the goal of budo.

I would agree that this is extremely difficult if not next to impossible...especially since your enemy's intent is on harming or killing you.

To me, it evokes the Koan..."Do no harm, Stop Harm".

I think that koan is well known for a reason.

For me, I think the purpose of budo is along the lines of what is talked about in the Book of Five Rings.

That is being Prepared, and doing what is necessary.

Being prepared has alot meanings. Being mentally, spiritually, and physically prepared. Having the right tools, having situational awareness...a clear mind...those kinda things.

Making the best possible decision based on the input given..

Using the appropriate amount of force....

Aikido/budo can do alot of things for us in this area...things that are acheivable in our lifetime...and things that are not near impossible to achieve such as "doing no harm...no matter what" to our enemy.

Budo can show us how to better ourselves, can teach us alot about "self" and expand our ability to see things that we may not have seen before and make better, more informed choices. It can help us be more compassionate, less angry...etc.

All those things can help us make good choices.

However, in the end...we may find that we must use force and cause harm....and that may be the right choice given the circumstances.

It does not mean we have failed at all if we use force. It may be the right choice and one that is well with in the realm and ethics of budo.

According to the book "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" by A. Westbrook & O. Ratti, on page 33 under the section entitled "The Ethics of Defence in Combat", it states that there are four levels of Ethics of defence in combat:

The lowest level of Ethics is Level 1:
Level 1: Unprovoked Tori initiates attack & kills innocent Uke.

Level 2: Unprovoked Tori provokes innocent Uke who initiates attack. Tori defends & seriously injures Uke.

Level 3: Innocent Tori receives unprovoked Uke's initiated attack.
Tori defends & seriously injures Uke.

Level 4: Innocent Tori receives unprovoked Uke's initiated attack.
Tori defends but does NOT injure Uke (through controlled technique).

Level 4 is the highest. What do you guys think??

Randall

Randall Lim
11-03-2010, 01:44 AM
How are you preparing yourself for this very high calling?

I suppose it is through dedicated & consistent meditation. The same path towards Spiritual Enlightenment.

Bear in mind that Aikido is a very spiritual Budo system. One should never ignore the spiritual emphasis in Aikido, or it would just be the tip of the iceberg we are scrapping.

Michael Varin
11-03-2010, 03:00 AM
The full force Randori BJJ and Judo practitioners do help prepare them for resistance in a real-life situation. However, this would be far more dangerous in an Aikido dojo and would certainly result in a big increase in injuries.

Judo/BJJ techniques allow you to go full-contact and know that you probably aren't going to seriously injure your training partner as long as they have good ukemi and know when to tap. Many Aikido techniques just don't lend themselves well to this kind of training. Sankyo can go from lock to spiral-break far faster than someone can tap. You would need to limit the techniques to those that are safe.

This is flat out untrue. Unfortunately, it is a common misconception.

At my school we have been training aikido techniques against fully resisting opponents for over three years and have only had one injury during that time.

I really liked Kevin's 2010 posts in this thread. (Don't know if it was Halloween or what, but there have been a lot of threads resurrected in the past week.)

The realities of non-sport/ego fighting are: 1) numbers, 2) surprise, and 3) weapons.

The direction this thread has taken has given us another great opportunity to explore where aikido's techniques fit into the spectrum of martial arts.

Evading attacks until you can access your weapons, utilizing techniques to allow you to continue using your weapons, and applying techniques that can stop someone from using their weapon and force them to release their grip on that weapon are crucial.

Oh! One more thing the bjj guy from the story that the OP referred to should have used the lowly katate dori. He might have had fewer stab wounds. Think about that.

Randall Lim
11-03-2010, 07:12 AM
At my school we have been training aikido techniques against fully resisting opponents for over three years and have only had one injury during that time.

The direction this thread has taken has given us another great opportunity to explore where aikido's techniques fit into the spectrum of martial arts.
.

Regarding RANDORI.

Training Aikido techniques against resisting opponents is not Randori. It should be called simply Resistance Kata training.

Randori is FREE-play. However, a set of rules still need to be set up to ensure safety & authenticity (preserving the essence of Aikido).

Can you come up with a set of rules that can ensure safety & authenticity while being easily enforced by a referee?? How would a referee detect the presence of Aiki in a technique that has just been executed?? The presence of Aiki can only be testified by the Uke.

Aikido techniques are not only about those joint locks that we use. Aikido is the art of receiving, yielding & blending with the opponent's energy, causing him to over-extend his posture & break his balance.

Can this strategy be detected by the referee?? Only Tori & Uke will know.

Regarding Aikido as a Martial Art.

In my opinion, Aikido is only about 20%Physical Techniques,
30% Mental Development, while 50% Philosophcal & Spiritual.

Aikido's place in the Martial Arts is only about 50% (20% + 30%).

Demetrio Cereijo
11-03-2010, 10:47 AM
Regarding Aikido as a Martial Art.

In my opinion, Aikido is only about 20%Physical Techniques,
30% Mental Development, while 50% Philosophcal & Spiritual.


That makes a degenerate :triangle: and considering the importance of the :triangle: in the physical, mental and philosophical-spiritual aspects of aikido...
:D

Flintstone
11-03-2010, 11:08 AM
In my opinion, Aikido is only about 20%Physical Techniques, 30% Mental Development, while 50% Philosophcal & Spiritual.
Certainly not in Flintstone Ryu.

C. David Henderson
11-03-2010, 11:29 AM
Certainly not in Flintstone Ryu.

:eek:

Flintstone
11-03-2010, 11:54 AM
:eek:
:confused:

Budd
11-03-2010, 12:30 PM
I prefer Yabba Dabba Do

thisisnotreal
11-03-2010, 12:45 PM
judo chop technique (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlx3ay8dELQ). if do right... no can defend.
"What Happen?"

C. David Henderson
11-03-2010, 12:55 PM
:confused:

Alejandro,

Sorry, I enjoyed your quip, s'all.

Take care.

Flintstone
11-03-2010, 03:24 PM
Alejandro,

Sorry, I enjoyed your quip, s'all.

Take care.
No problemo, bro. Stay cool.

Michael Varin
11-04-2010, 03:39 AM
Regarding RANDORI.

Training Aikido techniques against resisting opponents is not Randori. It should be called simply Resistance Kata training.

Randori is FREE-play. However, a set of rules still need to be set up to ensure safety & authenticity (preserving the essence of Aikido).

Can you come up with a set of rules that can ensure safety & authenticity while being easily enforced by a referee?? How would a referee detect the presence of Aiki in a technique that has just been executed?? The presence of Aiki can only be testified by the Uke.

Aikido techniques are not only about those joint locks that we use. Aikido is the art of receiving, yielding & blending with the opponent's energy, causing him to over-extend his posture & break his balance.

Can this strategy be detected by the referee?? Only Tori & Uke will know.

:confused:

You really need to read posts in the context of the thread. It eliminates the need for unnecessary explanation.

Obviously, I am not talking about training single techniques with uke blocking them and nage forcing through. That is not martially effective and it is not aiki.

I am talking about dropping the uke/nage roles and giving each partner a goal to achieve while stopping the the other partner(s) from achieving their objectives.

I'm not sure why you are concerned with a referee. The vast majority of my training has been outside the presence of a referee and has still been very useful.

It's not difficult to come up with rule sets that allow for this to occur.

Not that it matters for the exercises that I was describing, but once you are acquainted with aiki you can easily see it occur.

Lorel Latorilla
11-04-2010, 05:17 AM
I suppose it is through dedicated & consistent meditation. The same path towards Spiritual Enlightenment.

Bear in mind that Aikido is a very spiritual Budo system. One should never ignore the spiritual emphasis in Aikido, or it would just be the tip of the iceberg we are scrapping.

Bear in mind that Aikido's idea of Budo could be possibly adulterated with ultraright Japanese politics. What does 'love and peace' mean considering these political motivations?

Kevin Leavitt
11-04-2010, 10:31 AM
:confused:

You really need to read posts in the context of the thread. It eliminates the need for unnecessary explanation.

Obviously, I am not talking about training single techniques with uke blocking them and nage forcing through. That is not martially effective and it is not aiki.

I am talking about dropping the uke/nage roles and giving each partner a goal to achieve while stopping the the other partner(s) from achieving their objectives.

I'm not sure why you are concerned with a referee. The vast majority of my training has been outside the presence of a referee and has still been very useful.

It's not difficult to come up with rule sets that allow for this to occur.

Not that it matters for the exercises that I was describing, but once you are acquainted with aiki you can easily see it occur.

Here is an example of training we do. I'm not refereeing as much as serving as a control measure.

I define the constraints in order acheive the training objectives and ensure safety, however, it is non-compliant and they are free to pretty much do what they want in order to "win".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-rZAR6DH20

Amassus
12-11-2010, 01:46 PM
Kevin, I always enjoy your dose of practicality you add to posts. Considering your background I value your insights and take what you say on board.

As for the OP. Maybe knives were not apparent initally, from what I understand, the knives come out in the last moment to gain the element of surprise.
A guy who used to teach Philipino (sp?) stick/knife fighting and who is now retired, used to say "When confronted with a knife, use what ever you can as a barrier against the knife and get out of there as soon as possible." So ripping off your jacket and wrapping about your arm as a shield, throwing a garbage can lid at your opponent, anything as a distraction to get out.
Knives are fast and take little effort on the attacker's behalf to do harm.

Yes, having a good awareness would help to establish where you are at. So aikido randori is useful, provided it is done honestly with a sense of urgency.

My brother was ambushed many years ago (attempted mugging). He was studying a Jujutsu style at the time and he did as Kevin suggested, he took the fight to his two assailants and came out of it OK, but mentally messed up. His training saved him. He was lucky and I think the attack wasn't thought out that well.

Scary stuff.