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Old 07-13-2005, 01:01 PM   #1
Michael Neal
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BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

I want to start by saying that I practice jiu jitsu myself and think it is a very valuable martial art but this following situation definately shows its weaknesses. it was posted by a BJJ practitioner with a good amount of experience.

I also want to use this as an opportunity for more people to take my previous suggestions to heart, that Aikido would appeal to more people if a bigger effort was made to include more realistic training and randori. Its strength in these type of situations is obvious if you have done any multi attacker Aikido randori. However, Aikido training must contain these elements on a regular basis to be effective in surviving this kind of attack in my view.

Quote:
I wouldn't call it a fight, but we were on the sidewalk, which is pretty close to a street in most areas.

An altercation flames up out of nowhere, and before we know it, myself and 5 of my buddies from my jiujitsu academy are backing cautiously away from a group of 12+ hispanic fellows.

As I back away trying to keep an eye on everyone, I run right into a fucking TREE. clock my head pretty good and realize instantly that I am completely fucked. A guy dives in from my left and socks me good in the eye, got a nice shiner now, and I react instantly, bum rushing the nearest guy in front of me. I clinch up tight to protect my face from more punches, and drag him back with me, I can feel people hitting the top and back of my head but it doesn't matter.

A few seconds later I shove the guy away from me and break free of the melee. My friends have also broken away, and one suffered a nasty cut under his eye from a punch.

We retreat a few blocks and I notice my side is drenched, probably beer from the cans they chucked at us (which is what started this whole mess) I thought. Then I looked at my hand and it was covered in blood. I lift up my shirt and reveal much to my surprise:

I had been fucking stabbed. Right over my liver, actually.


So during my visit to the ER I learn that they also shanked me in the right thigh, and after extensive testing, x-rays, ultrasounds, cat-scans, it turns out I am a-ok. The knife didn't get through my abdominal muscles, and no organs were damaged. The muscle in my thigh was pretty well fucked up though. Anyway a few stitches later I get released, and told to take it easy and "eat lots of protein."


Interestingly, while I was in there a mexican dude came in with, guess what, a stab wound. When aksed by the nurses where this happened he replied with what was an obvious stuttering lie. My friend broke in, saying "Are you sure it wasn't [street we were on]?" and the guy freaked, so he was obviously involved, his buddies must have stabbed him by accident. I'm betting it was the guy I clinched.



Some thoughts:


-This was a nice neighborhood, about 2 blocks from downtown. Fucked up.
-Jiujitsu is great, but the surprise knife attack is superior.
-I have jiujitsu to thank for the musculature that probably saved my life, or at least kept me out of surgery. Those hanging situps pay off.
-If I hadn't clinched that guy, the knife that hit him would have hit me, and god knows where. Without him as a human shield they would have had an open look at my chest, and could easily have got me in the heart or lungs.
-Don't be a fool, stay in school.
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Old 07-13-2005, 01:34 PM   #2
DustinAcuff
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Great story. Shows alot of truth. Never expect to leave a knife fight without stitches. Good example of how things can turn intresting quickly.

I disagree that if more schools were reality based that there would be more of a following. Including private students my sensei has only 30ish and no more than 8 at once except for very rare occasions. He has been in the same spot for a number of years, and was active in the community as a bouncer of good reputation. The more quality is taught the fewer people believe it simply because it does not conform to normally accepted truths. I wish you were right, but atleast in this case you are not.
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Old 07-13-2005, 01:40 PM   #3
bkedelen
 
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

There is no weakness in BJJ, it builds better people, just like Aikido.
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Old 07-13-2005, 01:46 PM   #4
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

I agree with Dustin, if you fight with people, do not be suprised when you get stabbed or shot. It takes two to tango. We train not just to learn to tango better, but to know when to leave the dance.
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Old 07-13-2005, 06:42 PM   #5
stratos patsakis
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

when people ask me about knife fighting i aswer them if you can run away it's the better thing to do!i believe that you need many years of experience and practise to deal with a guy that holds a knife!the training in the dojo with a plastic knife is nothing!you need a lot of practise and experience!and if the guy knows to manage the knife you are fucked up!most people with knifes attack in the front to stab you.the people who know about knifes make cuts like the number 8 and it is very dangerous.they cut all the dangerous spots at human body...so stay away from knifes.one good way of training knife fighting is to wear black t-shirts and take instead of knife that white thing they use in schools to write in the blackboard i don't know the word in english!if you manage to write the other person's t-shirt then he needs more practise in knife fighting!
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Old 07-13-2005, 11:25 PM   #6
Roy
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

I'm not so sure that sport like"randori" in Aikido would be a good idea, particularly with Sankyo techniques. Because man, there sure would be allot of sore arm joints!! But, I most definitely agree that Aikido should have a realistic street based approach to its training. Which is tragically lacking in many Aikido dojos.
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Old 07-14-2005, 02:57 AM   #7
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
I'm not so sure that sport like"randori" in Aikido would be a good idea, particularly with Sankyo techniques. Because man, there sure would be allot of sore arm joints!! But, I most definitely agree that Aikido should have a realistic street based approach to its training. Which is tragically lacking in many Aikido dojos.
Roy, I agree upon randori tournaments having some disadvantages. I have a vague idea of good Aikido randori events - not championships. But I need some time and more experience to make them public.

But I do not think that Aikido dojo should generally focus on "realistic street based approach". If you teach street fighting, you will get street fighters. That is ok, where necessary, i.e. police, armed forces etc. But there you can have extra cross border training with street fight aspects.

For most of the others good self defense practise should be enough. Yes, maybe some more than most dojo offer.

And while you may argue that everyone may be confronted with a real street fight situations with experienced street fighters. I have to agree, there is a chance, but I do not think that the chance of facing a real gun fight situation with auto- or semi-auto weapons.

Does that mean, that every Aikido dojo should teach realistic fight situations with M16, uzi, etc.?

Regards Dirk
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Old 07-14-2005, 03:18 AM   #8
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Just to clarify things... randori as practiced by us Shodokan folks is to help us learn Aikido against a strong and vigorous Resistance. It has nothing to do with sport. Because we don't want people to break bones or die (both happened) we have some rules more to do with safety than anything else. Still, it's hard word and shows you where your Aikido is lacking.

Shiai is randori used within a sport context with points, referees and a plastic cup at the end. It it not something that is taught in Shodokan dojo, you have to go out and do it yourself. Only way to learn.

Would any of this have helped whoever got stabbed in Michael Neal's story?... I have no idea. Would a stab proof vest have helped? I bet! http://www.stabproofvest.co.uk/sitemap/ in case you wanted to get one...

The people who understand, understand prefectly.
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Old 07-14-2005, 07:04 AM   #9
Michael Neal
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Maybe Aikido would not have worked in this situation but I don't believe grappling with someone when there are 9 other attackers is ideal. The randori I am talking about is multi attacker randori and not so much to actually throw people but to just get the hell away and deflect some of the initial attacks to avoid being overwhelmed. I think Aikido randori excels in that context, and what I was trying to say is that this is a unique thing that Aikido has to offer and it should capitalized on more.
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Old 07-14-2005, 09:06 AM   #10
L. Camejo
 
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Maybe Aikido would not have worked in this situation but I don't believe grappling with someone when there are 9 other attackers is ideal. The randori I am talking about is multi attacker randori and not so much to actually throw people but to just get the hell away and deflect some of the initial attacks to avoid being overwhelmed. I think Aikido randori excels in that context, and what I was trying to say is that this is a unique thing that Aikido has to offer and it should capitalized on more.
I think Michael has a good point.

Having survived a very similar situation to the one in the story, situational awareness, distancing and positioning are key in multiple attacker situations imho. I think the point about situational awareness was most highlighted where the narrator of the story said he backed into a tree and bumped his head and the attackers took that interval of distraction to jump him.

The story also says something about adrenalisation (something I think any self defence training needs to address) where the narrator runs a few blocks before realising he is stabbed. I think this is an area where competitive type practice with serious resistance can have a positive effect. As one becomes more conditioned to dealing with a certain degree of adrenal response from resistance training that has a certain degree of "danger", then one tends to be more predisposed to executing the most appropriate response to the situation (including running away) instead of the typical freeze response as the higher level brain crashes while trying to process data in the midst of the chaos.

Most of the BJJ, JJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, and Aikido folks I know who engage in some sort of serious resistance randori/sparring practice tend not to freeze when adrenalisation occurs, but respond differently. I think this may have something to do with training in an environment where one becomes accustomed to facing serious resistance and also understand how one's own body and mind reacts when faced with this sort of resistance and even danger.

Of course none of this is guaranteed fact. But from my understanding, "reality-based" self defence systems like RMCAT utilise Aikido-like evasion and positioning tactics as seen in multiple attacker randori. Of course it is tailored to teaching effective self defence in a short period so there is no philosophy here except to survive.

Personally I think Nike Defence (aka Run like hell) is a great technique for multiple attackers, assuming you can outrun your fastest attacker of course.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 07-14-2005, 12:33 PM   #11
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

1. There are no rules.
2. He who was the most buddies will pretty much always win regardless of your skill level.
3. Never go to a gun fight with a knife, never go to a knife fight with empty hand.
4. Don't fight within the paradigm of your training, use every available "weapon" at your disposal.
5. Refer to rule #1...there are no rules.
6. Use common sense, don't fight if the odds are not in your favor, better to retreat and live for another day, then to stand there and take a beating.
7. Always assume that you are out skilled, out numbered, or out weaponed. Therefore, don't fight unless you have to.
8. Get more friends, police or help to even the odds.

This is much better than any randori you could practice in any martial art, it is cheap (as all advice is ...easy (except on you ego), and easily implemented by all!

I don't think empty hand training does much for you if you are out numbered, or out weaponed.

Other than that...i pretty much agree with Larry. Not sure what adding realistic randori would accomplish in aikido that would greatly enhance your ability to survive a multiple opponent situation to be quite honest. It is nice to practice in principle, but you are living in la la land if you really think you can beat multiple opponents. If you do...you got lucky for some reason!

There is no holy grail that will prepare you to win or survive a multiple opponent situation as far as empty hand is concerned.
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Old 07-14-2005, 12:35 PM   #12
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

oh yea...get a stab proof vest like Yann recommended, wear it all the time so you are always prepared. Much more effective as a martial art for self defense.
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Old 07-14-2005, 12:38 PM   #13
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

I disagree with #4. You always want to play to your own strengths. If you are not a groundfighter, DO NOT go outside the paradigm of your art and go to the ground. You will be ownaged. That is not to say that you should not be willing to adapt to and utilize your environment, but your training is all you really have, do not abandon it.
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Old 07-14-2005, 12:51 PM   #14
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Benjamin, I am going to "pull guard" on your post and take it to the ground

you might want to abandon your training if it is not appropriate for the situation, or if it really sucks for multiple opponent/weapons environment...which all empty hand arts basically suck at..which is the basis of my post.
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Old 07-14-2005, 01:48 PM   #15
bkedelen
 
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Although I know what you mean, my training has permeated every aspect of how I function, and as an Aikidoka, the only way I could abandon it would be to attempt to grapple, kick, or apply weapons with which I have no training (do not pick up that three section staff). It seems to me that when facing armed/multiple opponents, attempting to grapple, kick, or use unfamiliar weapons would put me at a disadvantage compared with other options like running away, getting into a car, or even trying my techniques. In any case, there is no thinking involved when faced with such a situation. Unlike the examples in modern entertainment, we do not manifest emergent properties when faced with conflict, we simply react in the way we have been taught. Your training is your animal-brain response, and you will not be able to abandon it because there will be no thinking involved.
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Old 07-14-2005, 02:24 PM   #16
Michael Neal
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

I don't think the randori would train you to beat mutiple opponents but maybe to survive the initial attack and get away while many people are swinging at you.
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Old 07-14-2005, 03:24 PM   #17
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
There is no holy grail that will prepare you to win or survive a multiple opponent situation as far as empty hand is concerned.
I think this is very true.

LC

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Old 07-14-2005, 03:49 PM   #18
DustinAcuff
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Dirk, I disagree that if you train for reality that you will produce street fighters. If you train for reality you can do techniques on people who not only are not cooperating, you can do techniques on people who want to rip your head off. Maybe not any specific technique you want but they will be neutralized.

I agree that using anything at your disposal is a good idea. I have been taught to use everything from a quarter to a business card to a broken broom handle to defend myself and to do so without striking. If an engagement happens and you happen to see something that could be used as a weapon, go for it.

I disagree that multiple attackers are impossible. In our randori we don't stop until every uke is dead or out of the game or neutralized in some way. Sensei is quite famous in town for having to deal with a 20 man bar-riot with only one other bouncer and walking away relatively unharmed. Few of the rioters could say that though. If your only goal is to throw the uke's through the air then I will happily agree with you but if you want to lock them up or remove them then it is very possible. Multiples is an ability that can be developed over time, not something you can do just because you have earned -kyu or -dan X.

That said, I firmly believe that one cannot and will not attain proficiency (and all the nifty abilites that come with it) enought to apply this art 100% in the real world until every bit of training becomes a conditioned response. I keep hearing from sensei that if you want to be fast and fluid it takes 1000 times a day, and from someone who has been doing this for his entire life I believe it.
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Old 07-14-2005, 06:04 PM   #19
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

to be completely honest, I don't think any martial art would prepare "me" to deal what that guy had to deal with. Bottom line for me is, he was very lucky he did not get killed. I realize this may irrelevant, but perhaps joining anti street violence/gang advocates is the strongest weapon to stop that kind of bullshit described above.
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Old 07-15-2005, 08:45 AM   #20
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

I agree Roy. Sometimes our martial training prepares us to be strong as good citizens and stand up and say "we are not taking this crap any more". To me, this would be a good use of budo.
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Old 07-15-2005, 08:51 AM   #21
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Wonder why I have never seen a video on the web showing someone defeating upwards to 20 dudes without eating it in the end? Seems like by now we'd be able to capture footage of some bad ass that could do that. He'd be a millionaire cause he'd sell many, many tapes, books etc.

Not saying that someone might not fair better than another, or not be able to get out of the door, or escape the altercation to live another day. Training is good for that. But, I seriously doubt that there many...if any that could soundly defeat 20 dudes in a "real fight (tm)" like in the movies and stand around a pile of bodies.

No disrespect to your sensei...I am just not a believer since the stories are many, but the proof is few and far in between.

I wouldn't hang my hat on my sensei's success as an indication that what he teaches, or what you are learning will one day allow you to defeat multiple opponents, or give you a "get out of jail free" card. There ain't no holy grail.

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Old 07-15-2005, 08:56 AM   #22
Yann Golanski
 
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

I can defeat 20 duds in a fight thanks to my trusty general electrics mini gun!

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/...s_20052123.asp

Yadda yadda yadda yadda... Now I have a machine gun... HO! HO! HO!

Yann, the mad shodothug.

Last edited by Yann Golanski : 07-15-2005 at 09:03 AM.

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Old 07-15-2005, 06:10 PM   #23
Roy
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Realistic view Kevin! I thing we get the idea that martial arts can almost be inviseble to that sort of thing, from waching Hollywood movies.
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Old 07-15-2005, 11:56 PM   #24
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

I agree with everyone. Just b/c sensei did it once don't mean I can, when I'm 80 years old I hope to be half as skilled as he is. Don't take unbelievable stuff on heresay: I don't, I know people who were there. I think anit-gang groups are probably a good idea, but having grown up in the Southeast US where there are no gangs and seeing the results of anti-gang groups in California I tend to think they are a waste of time.

Kevin, I agree completely, there ain't no holy grail. But I do believe that the more you train the more likely you are to survive when things get ugly.
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Old 07-16-2005, 12:20 AM   #25
DustinAcuff
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Re: BJJ shows weakness in this street fight

Just an observation: the situation I speak of with my sensei may have been misconstrued a little bit.

It was a riot against something or another with around 20 beer'd up people, sensei was responsible for helping the other guy quell the riot and keep things as undercontrol as possible.
They were not all attacking sensei at the same time, I doubt they were anywhere close to organized.
Coincidering the space allowed, at the most he might have had 3 people at once and their ability to attack was questionable.
I never claimed that he put down the riot or that he took down each and every one, just that he walked away with no permanent injuries and the majority of the rioters did not.
The bar is in downtow, I suspect it was a matter of minutes before the police arrived.

I can see why it looked like BSing, but I was trying to make the point that multiple attackers is not an impossibility that you only walk away from if you are lucky. Lucky is the a gun in your face and the dude pulls the trigger and the round is a dud. As far as I've been able to determine, at best only 1-2 people can attack you at a time unless you get someone behind you, but you can't have 4 people come at you at the same time, they will get themselves tangled up and you can do quite a bit to help them stay that way.
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