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Michael Neal
06-03-2005, 11:57 AM
http://www.kusu.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~judo/library/pv300.asf

Above is a promotional clip by the Kyoto Judo Team, posting it here is my answer to the many statements on this forum over the years that Judo is not graceful, ugly to watch, etc.

While Judo can look rough during competition, most Aikido would look just as unrefined under similar circumstances. The clip shows a demonstration of techniques with a non-resistant uke, similar to how Aikido is practiced. Judo can be just as aesthetic as Aikido, and in my view it is more.

The clip also shows a few techniques that are not practiced in competition due to their high risk of injury, I challenge anyone here to argue these "sport" and non-sport techniques are not effective becasue Judo is "just a sport".

akiy
06-03-2005, 12:10 PM
Nice clip, Michael.

I think that anyone who says judo can't be amazing to watch has never seen folks like Kyuzo Mifune sensei. Likewise, some of the most subtle kuzushi that I've felt have come from judo practitioners...

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale
06-03-2005, 12:34 PM
While Judo can look rough during competition, most Aikido would look just as unrefined under similar circumstances. The clip shows a demonstration of techniques with a non-resistant uke, similar to how Aikido is practiced. Judo can be just as aesthetic as Aikido, and in my view it is more.

I've never really thought of its being rough as a downside...as an ex-wrestler, rough doesn't bother me. I do however, find competitive judo way too much of a stalemate breaking game, where risk taking in terms of scoring a point is too rare. I can say the same thing about other forms of jacketed and un-jacketed wrestling in various venue, though.

The clip also shows a few techniques that are not practiced in competition due to their high risk of injury, I challenge anyone here to argue these "sport" and non-sport techniques are not effective becasue Judo is "just a sport".

Well, I'm not sure that statement accurately portrays the case that people make:

It seems all to easy to find a dojo that stresses competition, and not the full range of judo, including the kata, and serious practice of non-competition throws and principles. Lets take the habit of 'turtling' as one easy example...I don't believe there is any way to justify that outside of the competition environment. The one 'serious' dojo in my area now is extremely competition oriented. A very good friend of mine stopped training there due to just this problem. And Phila. was at one time a really great place for high level judo, I think. I believe you would agree that this is as much a problem for judo, as the aiki-bunnies are a problem for aikido, and the koryu wankers are a problem for koryu... :)

I think judo practiced as a complete system is way cool...even the competition oriented stuff is good...you know when you go into the fray, those 3 or 4 waza you love have a high percentage of working. But like anything else, there are draw backs, and people being as they are, will favor whatever seems to fit them best. Doesn't mean something else doesn't have value.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
06-03-2005, 12:50 PM
I meant to say the one serious dojo that I know of...and I haven't looked all that hard. My comments about judo in general should be taken with a LARGE grain of salt...

RT

Don_Modesto
06-03-2005, 01:14 PM
....competitive judo way too much of a stalemate breaking game, where risk taking in terms of scoring a point is too rare....dojo that stresses competition, and not the full range of judo....'turtling' as one easy example...I don't believe there is any way to justify that outside of the competition environment....as much a problem for judo, as the aiki-bunnies are a problem for aikido, and the koryu wankers are a problem for koryu... :)

Another nice post, Ron. I agree 100%.

I also agree with Michael Neal about the parameters of practice in the respective arts and its effect on esthetics.

Michael Neal
06-03-2005, 01:43 PM
I've never really thought of its being rough as a downside...as an ex-wrestler, rough doesn't bother me. I do however, find competitive judo way too much of a stalemate breaking game, where risk taking in terms of scoring a point is too rare. I can say the same thing about other forms of jacketed and un-jacketed wrestling in various venue, though.

What I meant by rough was unrefined and not aesthetic, although I think many people find it too rough in the way you mentioned as well.

Well, I'm not sure that statement accurately portrays the case that people make:

It seems all to easy to find a dojo that stresses competition, and not the full range of judo, including the kata, and serious practice of non-competition throws and principles. Lets take the habit of 'turtling' as one easy example...I don't believe there is any way to justify that outside of the competition environment. The one 'serious' dojo in my area now is extremely competition oriented. A very good friend of mine stopped training there due to just this problem. And Phila. was at one time a really great place for high level judo, I think. I believe you would agree that this is as much a problem for judo, as the aiki-bunnies are a problem for aikido, and the koryu wankers are a problem for koryu... :)

I think judo practiced as a complete system is way cool...even the competition oriented stuff is good...you know when you go into the fray, those 3 or 4 waza you love have a high percentage of working. But like anything else, there are draw backs, and people being as they are, will favor whatever seems to fit them best. Doesn't mean something else doesn't have value.

Best,
Ron

I agree with you to an extent, I think kata and the other aspects of Judo are important and should not be completely ignored. In fact, the Japanese competitors continue to practice many of these things and they usually win most of the competitions. Many Americans tend to think of kata and the like as a waste of time, I think they are wrong.

I spend 90% of my time on competition oriented stuff, but I do take time to practice kata and restricted techniques on occasion to keep them in my mind.

I agree about the turtling but realistically a Judoka against the average thug would not need to turtle anyway so I am not sure it degrades too much from the effectiveness of Judo for self defense.

However, I disagree that the heavy focus on competition in Judo is just as much as disadvantage as Aiki-bunnies are to Aikido. Competition Judo techniques tend to be some of the most effective. Competition "sport" Judo is plently capable of handing a self defense situation while I am not confident many "Aiki-bunnies" could be as successful.

Michael Neal
06-03-2005, 01:47 PM
and to avoid another flame war I want to remind you that I do not mean that all Aikido is ineffective, just those who do not practice it seriously as a martial art, "aiki-bunnies" as Ron calls them

Ron Tisdale
06-03-2005, 02:11 PM
:) Well, to be honest, I borrowed the term from my betters :) But I see all of your points, they are good ones.

Best,
Ron

Chad Sloman
06-03-2005, 03:19 PM
I think as more and more Judo clubs polish their ne waza ala BJJ, we'll see less and less of the turtle. Anybody that turtles is just asking to get choked or armbarred.

Michael Neal
06-03-2005, 03:36 PM
The thing I hate the most about the turtle is that it forces us to spend alot of time working on turtle cracking techniques, this is time that could be better spent on other newaza techniques.

Chad Sloman
06-03-2005, 04:19 PM
The thing I hate the most about the turtle is that it forces us to spend alot of time working on turtle cracking techniques, this is time that could be better spent on other newaza techniques.

you turtle cracking techniques besides repeatedly beating them on the back of the skull? :D

Kevin Leavitt
06-03-2005, 04:26 PM
My last BJJ tournament I got beat by a judoka that in watching the video was an expert at "playing the game" He racked up points on a takedown, then layed there stalling. When I finally got out from under him, he turtled very tightly. I wished like hell that I could strike him to the back of the head to break him up, but it wasn't in the rules. Then once he was in a disadvantage, he would work his way to the edge of the mat so we would get reset, buying time.

I have no issue really since the rules supported his strategy. I just am not that good at the "game". I have no problem with the real fight...I feel pretty confident that I'd be able to own him in that situation.

Red Beetle
06-04-2005, 12:05 AM
Cool video.

Judo can be rough. It can be very suave too.
I think the most physically powerful throws come from Greco-Roman wrestling. They are technical, and they are designed to allow the one throwing to set his body into such a position that he can put every ounce of body strength into the throw.
For example, the Greco-Roman hip toss (as taught by U.S. Olympic Greco-Roman wrestler Dennis Hall) has the thrower start from a stagger stance, and after a lat-pull, drive his lead leg deep between the opponent's leg, then pivot and drive downward. The deep planted leg pivot allows the thrower to use every ounce of leg strength while also using massive upper body rotation to drive the opponent over and down into the mat. You can really hurt someone with this type of throw after some solid practice. It is not unusual to even develop a head-ache just from going at half speed with such tosses. I can not imagine what it would be like to toss some one on the street with such a throw. Ouch.

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

maikerus
06-04-2005, 03:14 AM
Michael...thanks for sharing that clip. Very nice.

--Michael

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 03:47 PM
I have no issue really since the rules supported his strategy. I just am not that good at the "game". I have no problem with the real fight...I feel pretty confident that I'd be able to own him in that situation.

I sometimes turtle when I know that my opponent is stronger and will certainly pin me for a win, but I am working on moving into the guard instead and working submissions from there. Turtling can be a bad habit but if you are good enough you can use the turtle position as a way to launch attacks. For example, if you are in a real fight and you are in the turtle position you may be able to grab the attackers's arm and roll him into a pin or armbar.

MitchMZ
06-09-2005, 06:03 PM
I would agree that Wrestling has some of the most devastingly effective throws. Amazing really. Normally, I can ground myself enough that most intermediate Aikido, Judo, and Hapkido practicioners I've trained with would have a hard time throwing me. (Albeit, Advanced students/Masters of any art are a whole different ball game.)

Wrestling is different. I once threw a wrestler (while grappling) with a sloppy koshinage and he just grabbed my leg while he was on the ground where I threw him and went it for an insane single leg takedown that planted me on my back. I was actually laughing when he did, just because it felt very powerful and was quite a ride. I think wrestling is great because it seems like they can throw you hard even when you are firmly planted. They just get their center under yours and use all their strength to lift you up and then down. Its has been awhile since I was a competitive wrestler...but it all seems to be very vertical in nature.

xuzen
06-11-2005, 10:50 PM
M. Neal,

Lovely Judo clip. Incidentally, during the last Olympics... I had to fight with my siblings over the TV remote control for I wanted to see some top class Judo competition. Though I have never formally learn Judo, I like some of her techniques and will not hesitate to experiment.

In the clip at about 1 min 35 sec, I see a variation of Shihonage Kuzushi, very nice, very 'luverly'. It is interesting to see it done in this manner... you Judo guys just like to take everything to the ground don't ya?

Boon.

Michael Neal
06-11-2005, 11:12 PM
its called Ude Gaeshi, it is not legal in Judo competition but a nice throw to practice anyway

PeterR
06-12-2005, 01:35 AM
By the way that is a great dojo to train in. Shodokan Aikido has it Saturday evenings although the last time I went (slavering over the thought) we were relegated to a side dojo by some sort of special Kendo event (grrrrr!!!).

gwailoh
06-13-2005, 04:19 AM
Michael, ude-gaeshi _is_ legal in shiai. It is considered a skillful takedown into newaza, and so not awarded a point by itself. However it is not often used, one reason perhaps because people are afraid that if it appears the elbow is locked by the technique and used to throw with (and a smart opponent will be an actor and 'play up' to that end) then they will be hansoku-make'd. Or, maybe it is not used often because it is a low-percentage technique, and very hard to get working against an honestly resisting opponent. Or, maybe it is not often used because it is so rarely taught. Cheers,
Charlie

Roy
06-13-2005, 04:25 PM
I personally had the privilege of watching a 2nd or 3rd Jujitsu black belt in action, he was very well known, and respected in the local martial arts community as being a real tuff dude. There was an open house at his kick-boxing/ Jujitsu club, and a few 4-5th black belts from the local judo club attended with a couple of bleu and green belts. Anyway, the Jujitsu dude was demonstrating his "superior martial arts," and was giving explanations on both why Judo was a inferior, and why they would loose against him. He offered to "carefully" demonstrate his superior skill, but all the judo black belts declined; except for a young (about 23 years old) green belt judo guy volunteered. So, they went onto the mat and scuffled at bit and then Whammm!!! The green belt judo guy smashed Jujitsu dude down on the mat. The judo guy backed off and at the same time Jujitsu dude was infuriated and retaliated only to find himself once again, Squashed on the mat. Needless to say I laughed my ass off and accompanied the Judo guys out of the club. What became clear to me was that the style and technique studied will not make you, by any stretch of the imagination, a tuff guy!!!

ian
06-14-2005, 05:52 AM
I agree that if aikido is done competitively that it would look just as scrappy as judo (if not more so) and indeed I think would mostly be less effective in a competition. However, this is why I think O'sensei didn't want competition - aikido is developing reactions from sudden, unexpected or multiple attacks, with no rules. Aikido is also more self-defence orientated in that the gradation of response is easier to manage (i.e. if a young woman or your brother grabs you, you don't do a hip throw and pin them to the tarmac). In real fights you don't wait for the whistle to start, you have to move before they initiate their attack, or failing that, they have to think that they are suprising you. Face to face confrontations are not the arena of aikido, you must have struck before this occurs.

However, if you read the Kodokan Judo manual, you will notice that many of the non-competitve techniques (esp. those when wearing armour) are just like aikido. I don't see too much of a big gulf between them, in fact I think the aims are very similar. I just think aikido is more inclusive, and I prefer the training method.

henry brown
06-14-2005, 04:54 PM
The clip is indeed beautiful, but it is not what I see in my mind's eye (or on TV) when judo is ongoing.
It's amazing what choreography, direction, cinematography and slow motion can do. People being hit by bullets in slow motion can seem aesthetic too.

PeterR
06-14-2005, 08:26 PM
Well it was a big hit at my Judo dojo - I e-mailed the link around.

Joezer M.
06-16-2005, 12:59 AM
Beautiful clip! :D :D
Too bad I still can't find a good judo dojo anywhere near where I live... :(

Regards,
Joezer

neb1979
06-21-2005, 03:52 AM
Hey Michael,
Nice clip I have never really seen Judo in that light before it defiantly made an impact.

Thanks Ben

Michael Neal
06-21-2005, 08:20 AM
By the way that is a great dojo to train in. Shodokan Aikido has it Saturday evenings although the last time I went (slavering over the thought) we were relegated to a side dojo by some sort of special Kendo event (grrrrr!!!).

I would love to practice at a dojo like that

Michael Neal
06-22-2005, 08:40 AM
It seems all to easy to find a dojo that stresses competition, and not the full range of judo, including the kata, and serious practice of non-competition throws and principles. Lets take the habit of 'turtling' as one easy example...I don't believe there is any way to justify that outside of the competition environment.

Well if anyone is ever near the Washington D.C area drop by the Arlington Judo Club, we practice the full range of Judo for the most part. There are always some people doing randori while others are doing kata and others practicing techniques. There is really something for everyone there, both non-competitors and competitors.

There are also several people there with Aikido backgrounds and we like to mix in a little Aikido for fun on occasion.