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admurillo
08-19-2004, 02:11 PM
G-day,

Does anybody knows the difference between Aikibudo and Aikido. It will be neat to know the major differences between this two arts.

Thankyou friends!

Beto.

Greg Jennings
08-19-2004, 02:14 PM
Which Aikido, which AikiBudo?

???,

admurillo
08-19-2004, 02:27 PM
The Aikido I'm referring to is Chendokan Aikido, http://www.atemi-ryu.com/who_we_are.htm

Regarding Ailibudo, It looks like from 1920 to 1931, the great Master TAKEDA Sokaku passed on to his disciple UESHIBA Moritaka - who later gained fame as Master Ueshiba Morihei - the basics and technics of Daïto Ryu Aïki Jujutsu. Master Ueshiba carried on sharing his knowledge, in continuous evolution, with students that were to become awesome masters, bearers of a long tradition among which : MOCHIZUKI MINORU. Their web-site is the following: http://www.aikibudo.com/

Greg Jennings
08-19-2004, 02:43 PM
The AikiBudo you're talking about is Yoseikan AikiBudo. There are others here that can speak to it in great detail. As a brief summary, YAB is the creation of Mochizuki Sensei from his experiences in pre-war Aikido, Karate, Judo and Katori Shinto Ryu kenjutsu. It's quite fascinating. As an aside, the first YAB dojo in the US was founded at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, AL. There is still a strong YAB presense in AL.

I'll have to let someone else speak to where Chendokan Aikido gets its aikido from.

HTH,

aikidoc
08-19-2004, 03:28 PM
Hasn't "Chedokan Aikido" been discussed before on Aiki-Budo? 10th dan?

AsimHanif
08-19-2004, 03:30 PM
I am very familiar with Moses Powell and Prof.Vee and can only attest to their skill in jujutsu. As far as I know (and I know many of their students) neither has any instructor level certification from a recognized aikido organization, althougth it is possible that Mr. Powell had an association with Abdul Luqman (now of Morocco).
The Atemi Ryu website lists the instructor as having 8TH Dan Aikido United States Karate Association and 6TH Dan Japanese Aikido Association (Tomiki?), 10th Dan in Aikijudokan School Of Aikido, and a host of Dans in other things. I would suspect that this is really an off shoot of jujutsu from the Prof. Vee lineage not the aikibudo of Takeda Sensei or Ueshiba Sensei.

AsimHanif
08-19-2004, 03:35 PM
I should point out that Prof.Vee passed away a few years ago and he was indeed a very credible and innovative martial artist and a very nice and humble man. I had the opportunity to speak with him on several occassions and I am sure he would never classify his art as aikido or aikibudo. He was a practitioner of Tai Chi and the Filipino arts and this no doubt had an influence on his "soft style" jujutsu.

Robert Cheshire
08-19-2004, 09:58 PM
Just have to love Gregg for his good words always on Yoseikan Budo! Minoru was indeed a pre-war student and it was called aikibudo when he first learned it from O Sensei. The site you mention is that of "Master Alain FLOQUET ." Depending on the circles you run in he is anywhere from considered real good to being full of himself and not effective. I haven't really seen what the man can or can't do personally so I can't pass judgement.

As a follow-up to Gregg's reply about Yoseikan Budo here in the U.S. he is right about it being started at Redstone Arsenal and there being a strong group in Alabama. There are two good schools and about to be a third (have an instructor moving back to Gulf Shores, AL). We have several in other states as well and are trying to grow and spread the Yoseikan name.

batemanb
08-20-2004, 01:38 AM
Hasn't "Chedokan Aikido" been discussed before on Aiki-Budo? 10th dan?

It was discussed here a couple of weeks back

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6127

Greg Jennings
08-20-2004, 07:20 AM
Just have to love Gregg for his good words always on Yoseikan Budo!
You're very welcome.


As a follow-up to Gregg's reply about Yoseikan Budo here in the U.S. he is right about it being started at Redstone Arsenal and there being a strong group in Alabama. There are two good schools and about to be a third (have an instructor moving back to Gulf Shores, AL).
Could you put us in contact? I'd like to say Hi if I'm down in that area.

Regards,

Robert Cheshire
08-20-2004, 08:00 AM
I'll get the contact info and PM it to you.

admurillo
08-20-2004, 10:46 AM
We have no Yoseikan tradition schools here in Costa Rica… yet!
This site is so nice. In such a small amount of time, I’ve received tons of e-mails from friends regarding the above topic in discussion. What really amazes me is to see how a huge and big network this site is, in terms of knowledge, tips and cross-references. I’m quite excited to re-start my training again.

I got this link from one friend here http://www.yoseikanbudo.com/eng/index.shtml its pretty good. Again, thank you all for all the info you’ve given me!
Greetings from sunny Costa Rica!
Beto.

Greg Jennings
08-20-2004, 10:58 AM
Hi Beto,

I think you'll find the AikiWeb-folk to be mostly very open minded and helpful. I'm pretty isolated here and AikiWeb has been my extended dojo...giving me access to experiences and insights that would have otherwise been out of my reach.

Best regaards,

Robert Cheshire
08-20-2004, 11:50 AM
I got this link from one friend here http://www.yoseikanbudo.com/eng/index.shtml its pretty good. Again, thank you all for all the info you've given me!
Greetings from sunny Costa Rica!
Beto.

That site belongs to the group lead by Patrick Auge. It does have a lot of information that is good. However, he does not belong to our organization. Sites from our international organization that have information are http://www.yoseikan.asso.fr/ and http://www.yoseikan-budo.org

Perhaps you can contact the Mochizuki family at the sites I mentioned and inform them of the desire to have Yoseikan Budo in Costa Rica.

Dominic Toupin
11-15-2004, 02:58 PM
The group lead by Patrick Augé is also called Yoseikan Budo. Augé Sensei trained with Minoru Sensei. Is they are connection between the two groups or YWF does not recognize Augé Sensei?

Robert Cheshire
11-15-2004, 03:17 PM
The YWF is lead by Hiroo Mochizuki (Minoru Sensei's eldest son). Hiroo was the one who sent Patrick Auge to train with Minoru.

The YWF does recognize the skill and teaching ability of Patrick Auge. It is my understanding that Mr. Auge does not recognize the YWF as the progression he feels is true to what Minoru Sensei wanted Yoseikan to take. As you may know, Minoru Mochizuki passed complete control of Yoseikan to Hiroo several years before his death after he saw that Hiroo was taking Yoseikan in the direction he wanted it to go.

The Mochizuki family has expressed interest in being one of the demonstrators at the Aiki Expo 2005. They wish to show how Yoseikan has evolved over the years. They want to make it clear that they do not wish to try to "show up" Mr. Auge or his group. They are not asking to be one of the expo instructors - just demonstrate the way Yoseikan has developed.

Dominic Toupin
11-16-2004, 10:53 AM
Is there any tension between the two groups. In Quebec, Yoseikan Budo (Hiroo Sensei) and Canadian Federation of Yoseikan Aïkido are not that much of "friends" organization

phil farmer
11-16-2004, 11:54 AM
Yes, there is a great deal of tension between the two groups, Yoseikan International and Yoseikan World Federation (Hiroo Sensei) because of a lawsuit brought by Mr. Auge and because Mr. Ague has refused to follow the wishes of Minoru Sensei. It is most unfortunate that this chasm exists. The truth is that USYBA members have been told that they may not attend Auge Sensei's clinics, while USYBA and YWF welcome all martial artists, especially ones with Yoseikan as their background. I know this to be true of the world federation because I have attended the World Stage in Les Saintes Marie de le Mer and other groups from around the world work out with us every year. I am very sorry about this gap because some very talented people, on both sides, have allowed personal issues to stain the name of Yoseikan. I know in direct conversation with Master Hiroo Mochizuki that this troubles him deeply and that it troubled his father even more. Who knows, Dominic, maybe you and I can be the ones to find the peace that should exist within a family, the one called Yoseikan. I am willing to work on it.

Phil Farmer

Dominic Toupin
11-16-2004, 01:07 PM
Mr. Farmer,

Here in Quebec, it will be a very hard thing to do. They are tension between Yoseikan Budo members in the Yoseikan Canada federation and tension between Yoseikan Budo and Yoseikan Aïkido (USYBA from Patrick Augé) and Canadian Association of Mochizuki Aikido. Yoseikan Budo is synonym of tension up north !!!

darin
02-14-2005, 12:36 PM
I haven't seen much of Yoseikan aikido outside of Australia except for a bit of Seifukai back in 1996. Is there much of a difference between the different styles? The style I do is similar to Yoshinkan aikido. I know that YWF aikido has been evolving. Do the Mochizuki Minoru groups only teach the original style?

phil farmer
02-15-2005, 10:17 AM
Hello Darin,

The Yoseikan aikido you are referring to is the older version that was taught at Hombu dojo in Shizuoka and the seifukai and Yoseikan International and the other old groups teach the old versions. If you saw the seifukai, then you saw what these various styles do. In my opinion, these groups are pursuing a form of Yoseikan that is stagnant and perhaps even dead as a practice. I say this because Minoru Sensei was always changing and improving Yoseikan (a characteristic his son also possesses). A long time teacher came to visit him several years ago, in France, and told Master Minoru that he was faithfully teaching what Sensei had taught 30 years before. Minoru Sensei laughed at him and was sad that the teacher had not grown in 30 years. This is the problem with these groups who want to follow the traditional way, it died on May 30, 2003. If these teachers in so many places will not move on to new things, they did not know Sensei Minoru very well.

In truth, there is not a great difference between these traditional groups and YWF. YWF does all of the throws that have ever been done in Yoseikan, with one difference, Hiroo Sensei has taken out the techniques that are ineffective or inefficient. The other important difference is this: YWF instructors are better at doing all of these traditional techniques from very realistic and dynamic attacks. YWF is Yoseikan but it is a living and dynamicart that is constantly being refined and reviewed for effectiveness and efficiency. I have the unique perspective of my teacher being a direct student of Minoru Sensei and one of those students at the Redstone Arsenal so many years ago and teaching me the traditional. Then we went to France together and he saw what is being done and was able to explain to me, while we watched, the connections. His belief, the YWF instructors are better at Yoseikan and can perform the techniques from every possible attack with great proficiency. And, to brag on my teacher only a little, he is recognized by Master Hiroo as a Master Teacher of Yoseikan Budo, because my teacher has been able to make the bridge from traditional to current. It is a consistent system. By the way, in addressing this thread's main question, aiki budo is practiced by Floquet and others that do the traditional. Yoseikan Budo is not an aikido style, it is its own martial art. In conversation with Hiroo Sensei, he believes that what his father created should never have been called aikido but should have been called a soft jiujitsu. In light of this thread, I think Master Hiroo's belief is very accurate. Yoseikan Traditional is much closer to daito ryu than aikido.

Phil Farmer

Dominic Toupin
02-15-2005, 10:34 AM
Mr. Farmer,

I want to know your opinion about International Yoseikan Budo Federation lead by Augé Sensei. This particular group didn't follow Hiroo Sensei. Does that mean that this particular aikido can not and will not evolve by their own.

The other example are Canadian Association of Aïkido Mochizuki lead by Roy Sensei. They withdraw from YWF because of all the changes that Hiroo Sensei made (Blue and White gi, changes in the curriculum and other). I think that considering all the sensei that this group has, IMHO I think that this style can evolve in a good way. It will be an evolution different from YWF but it could be a good evolution too.

It's sad that here in Quebec, they are three groups called Yoseikan and none of these group are in the same page

Dario Rosati
02-15-2005, 03:51 PM
The Aikido I'm referring to is Chendokan Aikido, http://www.atemi-ryu.com/who_we_are.htm


I've found this thread on the "bad budo" section of e-budo...

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12568&highlight=atemiryu

Interesting, to say the least :)

L. Camejo
02-15-2005, 07:25 PM
Actually the whole Chendokan and the veracity of their Head Instructor's Aikido claims issue has also come up recently on Budoseek.net here - http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=8811.

As far as we know the head of Chendokan holds no rank issued by the Japan Aikido Association as his website claims here - http://www.atemi-ryu.com/masters.htm.

It appears this guy is famous or maybe infamous on the net. Red flag - buyer beware.;)
LC:ai::ki: