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David Humm
08-13-2004, 03:25 AM
Just wondering if there is a name for the types of Ukemi

IE basic ukemi (rolling)
Advanced ukemi (overhead)

Whilst i'm on the subject, many Sensei have described "Ukemi" as being much more than just a skill of breakfalls, that, it is the encompassing skills used by Uke to help nage/tori develop their aikido.

I was wondering if there is a term or expression in Japanese that decribes this ?



Thanks in advance

PeterR
08-13-2004, 03:35 AM
Whilst i'm on the subject, many Sensei have described "Ukemi" as being much more than just a skill of breakfalls, that, it is the encompassing skills used by Uke to help nage/tori develop their aikido.

I was wondering if there is a term or expression in Japanese that decribes this ?
Yeah its called ukemi. The term literally means receiving body. A well trained uke in kata can allow tori to perform full speed technique without getting hurt. As such it involves much more than just falling down.

Traditionally in kenjutsu kata - uke was the senior person. The teacher if you will.

MaryKaye
08-13-2004, 10:12 AM
I met a sensei recently who talked about the dark side of this. "I could get a novice like you through a shodan test, with twelve weeks or so to memorize the basic moves"--and he proceeded to have me throw him with kata tori ikkyo. He was a fraction of a move ahead of me the whole way, so that it looked as though I was throwing him nicely, but really he was in total control. He then did it with a sincere attack and no collaboration, and, well, it's a long way to shodan....

There's a lot going on for uke, not just rolling/falling; I suspect you could spend just as much time on it as on being nage and none of it would be superfluous.

Mary Kaye

Lyle Laizure
08-13-2004, 12:53 PM
Ushiro hanten ukemi - Back breakfall (roll backward then back forward to standing position)
Koho kaiten ukemi - Full back breakfall (backward roll returning to standing position)
Zempo kaiten ukemi - Front breakfall (forward roll back to a standing position)
Yoko Ukemi - Side breakfall

I believe there are more depending on what source you go with. I found these in Best Aikido. Hope this helps.

Charles Hill
08-13-2004, 01:57 PM
I met a sensei recently who talked about the dark side of this. "I could get a novice like you through a shodan test, with twelve weeks or so to memorize the basic moves"--and he proceeded to have me throw him with kata tori ikkyo. He was a fraction of a move ahead of me the whole way, so that it looked as though I was throwing him nicely, but really he was in total control.

This is a great way for someone with more experience to teach technique to someone with less experience. This is how women social dance teachers teach their male students how to lead.

BTW, this may have no relevence to those outside of Japan, but I think the words "ukemi" and "uke" can be problematic for Japanese people. The word ukemi means "passive" and I have found too many students and fellow practioners in Japan to take this too literally. I'm wondering if others who have practiced in Japan have had a similar experience.

Charles Hill

David Humm
08-13-2004, 03:44 PM
Lyle.. many thanks mate.. Appreciated.

To everyone else .. Likewise.. thanks :)

I have a little issue with how the word "ukemi" is generally used.

I try to explain to students that when you "uke" you aren't simply receiving the technique and making the appropriate breakfall.

As we know our training partners are an invaluable source of feedback in our development, after all without an uke, we can't learn however; I often hear the term 'ukemi' to simply refer to the skills of falling to the ground and, although this isn't entirely wrong, the descriptive falls vastly short of explaining the full potential of a student for his training partner when he/she acts as 'uke'

I just wondered if any of you guys have a way of explaining the value of uke's within a class environment ?

Lyle Laizure
08-29-2004, 06:24 PM
Very good point Dave. I agree.

Ron Tisdale
08-30-2004, 01:24 PM
My best approximation of yoshinkan terminology...pardon any misspellings...

IE basic ukemi (rolling)
koho ukemi ichi -- basic back breakfall # 1 (no slapping)
koho ukemi ni -- " " " " 2 (slapping)
koho kaiten ukemi ichi, ni, san -- variations of backward roll (step back, sit, step back bring leg through)

zenpo kaiten ukemi ichi -- basic forward roll
zenpo kaiten ukemi ni -- basic forward roll with slap
zenpo kaiten ukemi san -- forward roll one leg straight
zenpo kaiten ukemi yon -- forward roll 'crossing over' leg bent
zenpo kaiten ukemi go -- forward roll 'crossing over' one leg straight

Advanced ukemi (overhead)
Hayaku ukemi -- no hand touches until the slap
Tobi something ukemi -- jumping over

MaryKaye
08-30-2004, 07:00 PM
One thing I think Ki Society gets out of the practice of taigi (competitive pair work, where the pair is judged as a unit) is that you realize how important uke is throughout the technique. A pair with a skilled nage and weak uke has little chance in taigi competition, because it's very hard to produce the desired smoothness, grace and timing with an uke who is giving weak attacks, dragging through the movements, or stiffening up.

I think people often feel uneasy about teaching the lead-following parts of ukemi (as opposed to the falling parts) because a street attacker wouldn't be getting coaching on making a better attack.... Taigi gives you a way around this argument, and to my mind a beneficial one. There are a lot of throws I understand much better for having done them with a skilled partner who can help me feel the flow.

One thing teachers can do to encourage good form from uke is to be uke themselves. I think we lose out if sensei are always nage, both because we don't get to see how they'd handle uke, and because it sends an implicit message that being nage is more prestigious. My favorite teachers are willing to take ukemi even for very junior students, and you can sure learn a lot by throwing them. They model making a good attack, following the lead cleanly (or refusing it if it's not adequate), and taking the fall well. They also show how much fun it is to work with a really good uke, which in turn inspires people to polish their own ukemi skillls.

If you aren't afraid of encouraging competitiveness, you can also attach some bragging rights to being asked to take ukemi from the teacher or for tests. I know I worked harder on polishing my shomenuchi attack because I wanted my partner to be pleased with me on the test.

Mary Kaye

Lan Powers
08-31-2004, 10:17 PM
>One thing teachers can do to encourage good form from uke is to be uke themselves. I think we lose out if sensei are always nage, both because we don't get to see how they'd handle uke, and because it sends an implicit message that being nage is more prestigious. My favorite teachers are willing to take ukemi even for very junior students, and you can sure learn a lot by throwing them. They model making a good attack, following the lead cleanly (or refusing it if it's not adequate), and taking the fall well. They also show how much fun it is to work with a really good uke, which in turn inspires people to polish their own ukemi skillls. <

Very nice! Our instructor is also the best at ukemi as well. It certainly clarifies things for you as nage when you can "feel" how it AUGHT to be done.
(Although you phrased it so much better than I :) )
Lan

Nick Simpson
09-01-2004, 08:04 AM
I cant remember who says it but its qouted on this site frequently, that "ukemi is the most important part of aikido", I agree. If no one learnt how to be a decent uke then no one would be able to do aikido. I feel you learn a lot more from being Uke than from being Tori, as Tori generally relys on Uke's feed back to realise if the technique worked, whereas uke knows by having it applied.

Tim Gerrard
09-01-2004, 06:33 PM
as Tori generally relys on Uke's feed back to realise if the technique worked, whereas uke knows by having it applied.

Also to add to this, a good uke can help improve technique, as training with a stiff nervous uke means that you concentrate not only on your own technique but what uke is doing.

billybob
09-02-2004, 12:20 PM
Maslow, the famous psychologist who gave us Maslow's hierarchy of needs wrote that the final level of human development is self-actualization. he described feelings of floating, lightness, and a gentle awareness of the present and one's surroundings. sounds like ukemi to me!

the first time i felt inner peace was during ukemi. it was a big judo shoulder throw. i gave in completely and felt like i was in my mother's arms. it has been 25 years since then, and i am gimpy but ukemi is my path!! throw me!

billybob

Ron Tisdale
09-02-2004, 01:03 PM
Also to add to this, a good uke can help improve technique, as training with a stiff nervous uke means that you concentrate not only on your own technique but what uke is doing.

Aren't we always supposed to concentrate on what uke is doing?

RT

PeterR
09-02-2004, 07:49 PM
Aren't we always supposed to concentrate on what uke is doing?

But then where is the Mushin :D <----- joke

Nick Simpson
09-03-2004, 09:11 AM
Moo!