"Ultimate" fighting?

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[andrew]

I was trying to find out how many people practice judo when I came accross this:
http://judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm
Contained in here is the story of the fight between Kimura, the judo master, and Helio Gracie, as told by Kimura.

When the merits of BJJ were discussed here a while back, people mentioned the conditions of the UFC being chosen to be favorable to BJJ fighters. This story appears to tell more of the same, as Helio is repeatedly thrown onto soft mats without injury. He was defeated when Kimura broke his elbow, although he didn't actually submit. (His corner threw in the towel)

I only mention the story because I'm sure I read Helio was undefeated on a BJJ website, and it's a myth I'm delighted to be able to find fault with, fearsome competitor though he obviously was.
andrew

[mornmd]

Aikido, by nature does not appear to be a competetive martial art. That being said at the beginning, one can analyze practical reasons why aikido would not be suited for this type of fighting. In aikido, many of the techniques can be devastating when properly applied, however on a well cushioned mat, if uke knows how to take a good ukemi, it will not be as effective at disabling an opponent as it would be on asphalt or concrete. If one argues that a submission could be gotten by a pin or joint lock after a fall, I would counter that these techniques are better expressed in the grappling arts.

The Gracie guys do seem to stack the deck with ultimate fighting. If they do not submit, the fight goes on, as in that story of the Judoka having to literally break Helio Gracie's elbow several times to win a submission. The Gracie guys say that "90% of fights go to ground," but I can't remember ever seeing that happen in real life. So the whole thing appears contrived to me.

Aikido and aikijutsu derivatives still seem very effective to me to teach one how to follow an opponents' energy or intentions. It seems particularly well suited to multiple attacks and attacks from weapons.

My two cents,
Matthew

[mornmd]

In an interview with Helio Gracie, he did claim to beat the Judoka Kimura, because Kimura said that before the fight, he doubted Gracie could last 3 minutes in the ring with him, and would consider that a victory. Gracie lasted 13 min before his team threw in the towel for a broken elbow. Wow, some victory for Gracie/grappling.

M

[Chuck Clark]

One thing positive about the Ultimate Fighting stuff is... it's making a LOT of money for the guys putting it together. I suspect that's the main intent.

[Sam]

Apperently Kimura was about twice the size of Helio. If you have every tried grappling with an opponent just a few pounds heavier than you, you will realise that Helio did well to last so long.
One thing about the UFC - its probably the least graceful sporting event ever.

[Matt Banks]

Damn I just wrote a long reply and it got lost.
Ill summarise.
1) ufc aint real, there's no multiple attacks, no eye gouging etc and interestingly most aikido tecniques are not allowed in the ufc as there counted as ''small joint manipulation'' e.g. sankajo.
2)helio lost many fights, ken shamrock always said ''a person who has never lost a fight is either lying or hasnt been in enough fights''.



thats about it

Matt Banks

[andrew]

Sam wrote:
Apperently Kimura was about twice the size of Helio. If you have every tried grappling with an opponent just a few pounds heavier than you, you will realise that Helio did well to last so long.
One thing about the UFC - its probably the least graceful sporting event ever.

169cm, 84Kg.
Helio was 180cm and 80Kg
There's a video clip at the site I linked to.
4Kg is, I suppose, a bit of a weight difference.
Helio tastefully brought a coffin along for Kimura. Presumably he thought it was funny he'd killed another judoka a few weeks beforehand. Kimura, apparently, thought it was hilarious when he saw it.
andrew

[andrew]

Matt Banks wrote:
ken shamrock always said ''a person who has never lost a fight is either lying or hasnt been in enough fights''.



Absoloutely true, but I never saw Ken in a real fight.
andrew

[Sam]

andrew wrote:
Sam wrote:
Apperently Kimura was about twice the size of Helio. If you have every tried grappling with an opponent just a few pounds heavier than you, you will realise that Helio did well to last so long.
One thing about the UFC - its probably the least graceful sporting event ever.

169cm, 84Kg.
Helio was 180cm and 80Kg
There's a video clip at the site I linked to.
4Kg is, I suppose, a bit of a weight difference.
Helio tastefully brought a coffin along for Kimura. Presumably he thought it was funny he'd killed another judoka a few weeks beforehand. Kimura, apparently, thought it was hilarious when he saw it.
andrew

4kg isn't that much of a difference ( A magazine article about BJJ said Kimura was massive, but I guess it was just trying to build BJJ up) .
I guess Kimura beat him fair and square!

[chrisinbrasil]

Was there ever anything written by Helio Gracie about this confrontation? Has anyone here ever seen a response to this when asked about the "never lost" statement?

[Erik]

andrew wrote:
Absoloutely true, but I never saw Ken in a real fight.
andrew

Read "into the Lion's Den" sometime. Assuming he's telling the truth, even some of the time, the man was a scrapper.

[kohai]

Helio Gracie is a martial arts master and deserves respect.

That being said his undeafeated record is obviously false as demonstrated by his loss to Kimura.

Regarding the size difference between Kimura and Helio it was much more than 4 kg. Helio was 140 lbs at the time of the fight which I believe is closer to 65 kg (??). I have a copy of this fight on video and Kimura seems to outweigh Helio by at least 40 lbs.

Growing up and being involved in many "streetfights" as a kid I can honestly say that many (75%) of fights end on the ground. That being said I don't believe that a martial art makes a fighter (whether its GJJ, Aikido, or whatever) I believe that the individual determines how well he will fare in a fight.

Finally-The UFC-It is a sport with rules therefore it is not an ultimate "fighting" competition more like a wrestling match that got out of hand.

The above is my opinion based on my experience-Hope it adds to the forum

[darin]

I suggest people enter the UFC or fight any of the Gracies/Machados before making any criticism.

[andrew]

kohai wrote:

Regarding the size difference between Kimura and Helio it was much more than 4 kg. Helio was 140 lbs at the time of the fight which I believe is closer to 65 kg (??). I have a copy of this fight on video and Kimura seems to outweigh Helio by at least 40 lbs.


well, anybody can follow the link, find the clip, and make up their own mind about that.
andrew

[andrew]

darin wrote:
I suggest people enter the UFC or fight any of the Gracies/Machados before making any criticism.



"Any" criticism? How about "You're lying. The facts are other than you present them." Why would somebody need to fight to point out an obvious lie? That's a really stupid argument.

Regarding Helio, I've never seen/heard/read he himself claiming to be undefeated. (On one site it says he was also defeated by a protogee) He was obviously a skilled fighter, and a tough tough guy. I get sick, though, of frequently seeing people claim he was the best fighter ever, never even got bruised(OK, I made that one up myself), or whatever level of exaggeration they feel like propagating. And I am simply glad to be able to say "No, that's not true" and in the future shut these people up.

andrew

[Kenn]

For those lazy like me:

20,000 people came to see the bout including President of Brazil. Helio was 180cm and 80kg. When I entered the stadium, I found a coffin. I asked what it was. I was told, "This is for Kimura. Helio brought this in." It was so funny that I almost burst into laughter. As I approached the ring, raw eggs were thrown at me. The gong rang. Helio grabbed me in both lapels, and attacked me with O-soto-gari and Kouchi-gari. But they did not move me at all. Now it's my turn. I blew him away up in the air by O-uchi-gari, Harai-goshi, Uchimata, Ippon-seoi. At about 10 minute mark, I threw him by O-soto-gari. I intended to cause a concussion. But since the mat was so soft that it did not have much impact on him. While continuing to throw him, I was thinking of a finishing method. I threw him by O-soto-gari again. As soon as Helio fell, I pinned him by Kuzure-kami-shiho-gatame. I held still for 2 or 3 minutes, and then tried to smother him by belly. Helio shook his head trying to breathe. He could not take it any longer, and tried to push up my body extending his left arm. That moment, I grabbed his left wrist with my right hand, and twisted up his arm. I applied Udegarami. I thought he would surrender immediately. But Helio would not tap the mat. I had no choice but keep on twisting the arm. The stadium became quiet. The bone of his arm was coming close to the breaking point. Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Helio still did not surrender. His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the left arm again. Another bone was broken. Helio still did not tap. When I tried to twist the arm once more, a white towel was thrown in. I won by TKO. My hand was raised high. Japanese Brazilians rushed into the ring and tossed me up in the air. On the other hand, Helio let his left arm hang and looked very sad withstanding the pain.

Peace, Kenn

[ian]

Well based on that, I think I would refrain from challenging either of them.

Ian

[darin]

andrew wrote:
darin wrote:
I suggest people enter the UFC or fight any of the Gracies/Machados before making any criticism.



"Any" criticism? How about "You're lying. The facts are other than you present them." Why would somebody need to fight to point out an obvious lie? That's a really stupid argument.

Regarding Helio, I've never seen/heard/read he himself claiming to be undefeated. (On one site it says he was also defeated by a protogee) He was obviously a skilled fighter, and a tough tough guy. I get sick, though, of frequently seeing people claim he was the best fighter ever, never even got bruised(OK, I made that one up myself), or whatever level of exaggeration they feel like propagating. And I am simply glad to be able to say "No, that's not true" and in the future shut these people up.

andrew

You should take it up with Helio and his family personally. Its probably the only way to find out what is true. As you know with famous people there you have to take everything with a pinch of salt. I doubt Ueshiba was able to do all those so called magical things. I mean seriously now thats exageratting.

[The One]

Sorry but, what is BJJ???

[Steve Speicher]

BJJ = Brazilian Ju-jitsu

Steve

[chrisinbrasil]

darin wrote:
I suggest people enter the UFC or fight any of the Gracies/Machados before making any criticism.


Don´t know about the Machados, but the Gracies are quite good.
No criticism, just introspection, confusion, exhaustion, and a bit of pain. It´s like fighting an anaconda.

[Gerardo A Torres]

I have a few issues against the UFC, primarily:

1. The whole ethical issue of arranged fights. Whatever the promoters/fighters say, the focus is on money and fame.
2. Too much focus on promoting certain styles (BJJ).
3. Once you get past the ethical issues, there's the problem with the rules. They have rules. Lots of rules. Below I'm copying the complete set of rules from the MMAC website, which applies to the UFC:

In MMAC sanctioned events [UFC], the use of any of the following techniques shall result in a foul [each foul carries a fine, three fouls gets you disqualified]:

-biting
-eye gouging of any kind (includes chin)
-throat strikes of any kind
-no fingers in opponent’s mouth or nose (fishhooking)
-hair pulling
-headbutting
-elbow strikes to back of head or neck
-pressure point strikes of any kind
-groin attacks of any kind
-small joint manipulation
-kicking a downed opponent (three support points kneeling, sitting or prone)
-spitting at opponent
-holding onto fence to stall action
-faking an injury
-unwillingness to fight, timidity (includes dropping to backside)
-lifting or throwing opponent out of enclosed fighting area
-corner interference

So pretty much any kind of realistic self-defense technique (biting, hair pulling, eye gouging) is invalid. Atemi to the groin (which in the aikido style I do is emphasized constantly, specially for "uchi" techniques) cannot be used. A throat strike can disable somebody immediatly (bell rings... throat strike... its over), but I guess it wouldn't attract a large pay-per-view audience. No use of pressue points means that entire martial art styles are not able to participate in UFCs. No small joint manipulation --no sankyo!? -- sometimes all you need to release a hold is to grab a finger, or a pressure point if you know them. A strike to the neck and a kick to the ribs are severe (yet realistic) ways ways of ending a kaiten nage entry and an ikkyo entry, respectively --these are not allowed either. The list of things you cannot do goes on.

How can one train in martial arts in order to use in real life and have so many contraints? Unless... you don't train martial arts to use in real life but to use in these type of events, in which case we're talking about a different kind of artist.

I've seen quite a few of the UFC, and I don't know why I keep watching them (can't control my curiosity I guess), but every time I watch them I end up dissapointed and feeling that these events are a disgrace to martial arts in general.

So much for Ultimate...

[Sam]

I guess the rules have changed a lot over time.
In the original I saw a lot of elbowing to the neck. It seemed to be the generally agreed way to finish somebody off. (nasty huh?)
In number 3, the only reason Royce Gracie won his bout with the huge monster 'Kimo' was that he managed to take him to the floor while pulling his hair. Under the current rules he would have had a torrid time.
I guess it has had to become more of a sport now the audience has expanded.
I haven't seen it for a long time, but what I remember most about it is most bouts ended up with both fighters laying on each other exhausted for about five minutes followed by a small movement and then another five minute rest.

[darin]

gerardo wrote:
I have a few issues against the UFC, primarily:

1. The whole ethical issue of arranged fights. Whatever the promoters/fighters say, the focus is on money and fame.
2. Too much focus on promoting certain styles (BJJ).
3. Once you get past the ethical issues, there's the problem with the rules. They have rules. Lots of rules. Below I'm copying the complete set of rules from the MMAC website, which applies to the UFC:

In MMAC sanctioned events [UFC], the use of any of the following techniques shall result in a foul [each foul carries a fine, three fouls gets you disqualified]:

-biting
-eye gouging of any kind (includes chin)
-throat strikes of any kind
-no fingers in opponent’s mouth or nose (fishhooking)
-hair pulling
-headbutting
-elbow strikes to back of head or neck
-pressure point strikes of any kind
-groin attacks of any kind
-small joint manipulation
-kicking a downed opponent (three support points kneeling, sitting or prone)
-spitting at opponent
-holding onto fence to stall action
-faking an injury
-unwillingness to fight, timidity (includes dropping to backside)
-lifting or throwing opponent out of enclosed fighting area
-corner interference

So pretty much any kind of realistic self-defense technique (biting, hair pulling, eye gouging) is invalid. Atemi to the groin (which in the aikido style I do is emphasized constantly, specially for "uchi" techniques) cannot be used. A throat strike can disable somebody immediatly (bell rings... throat strike... its over), but I guess it wouldn't attract a large pay-per-view audience. No use of pressue points means that entire martial art styles are not able to participate in UFCs. No small joint manipulation --no sankyo!? -- sometimes all you need to release a hold is to grab a finger, or a pressure point if you know them. A strike to the neck and a kick to the ribs are severe (yet realistic) ways ways of ending a kaiten nage entry and an ikkyo entry, respectively --these are not allowed either. The list of things you cannot do goes on.

How can one train in martial arts in order to use in real life and have so many contraints? Unless... you don't train martial arts to use in real life but to use in these type of events, in which case we're talking about a different kind of artist.

I've seen quite a few of the UFC, and I don't know why I keep watching them (can't control my curiosity I guess), but every time I watch them I end up dissapointed and feeling that these events are a disgrace to martial arts in general.

So much for Ultimate...

Majority of the techniques you talk about are almost impossible to use on experienced martial artists.

Even if you had a 100% realistic no rules competition the BJJ/Wrestlers/Grapplers would still win.

[KaiWarrior]

Darin, I am not sure what you mean by an experienced martial artist, but I have personally used pressure points and small joint manipulations on many of my BJJ, Judo, Ninjutsu,and greco roman friends with alot of success. Granted, I have never fought a person that is a UFC champion, and I do a bit of grappling myself, but to say that these techniques are not usuable against "experienced" opponents is false. The easiest of all to use are pressure points such as the one under the mandible. One good thumb there will move many BJJ's off of you long enough to either set up a submission, our attempt to get back on your feet. It is also very easy to hit a person in the groin. Very very easy. So easy, it happens by accident alot.

Thanks for listening.

KaiWarrior
Mitch

[AEH]

quote (darin wrote):
Majority of the techniques you talk about are almost impossible to use
on experienced martial artists.

Even if you had a 100% realistic no rules competition the BJJ/Wrestlers/Grapplers would still win.


If the techniques are impossible to use on experienced martial artists then why have they been banned?

[BC]

gerardo wrote:

So pretty much any kind of realistic self-defense technique (biting, hair pulling, eye gouging) is invalid.

LOL! Biting? ROFL! Biting is a realistic self-defense technique? In what art or style is this taught? Dog fu? Tyson-do? In my seventeen years practicing martial arts I have never seen this taught! I'm sorry, but I thought this was so funny I almost fell off my chair laughing! I'm not trying to criticize your post, so no offense Gerardo, but I just found this to be a pretty humorous in what I consider a somewhat humorous and very frivolous thread.


[Edited by BC on March 23, 2001 at 10:13am]

[chrisinbrasil]

Hi everybody,
Mr. Cronin, you´ve disappointed me a bit. I love your posts and you are extremely informative and pleasant to discuss with, but the fact that you have equated self-defense to martial arts got ME laughing and rolling around as you put it. Nobody said that biting was taught in a martial arts class. To my knowledge, which is quite limited, there are no kata in any art which include a roundhouse bite, or a deadly bite immobilization. The point is that biting is indeed a most splendid self defense. Self defense has never been limited to Martial Arts my dear friend.

As for Darin... whatever big guy. I hope you don´t truely subscribe to the theory that any BJJ/wrestler/grappler, would win in a real situation. That, to me, is very narrow-minded and completely subjective. It all depends on the fighter not the art.

And I think what was meant by the eye gouging statement is that it´s not that easy to hit someone in the eyes. You think you´ll just " ding... eye gouge... fight´s over..."? You´ve got another thing coming. That´s like saying you´ll walk into the ring with a kickboxer, punch him on a pressure point and end the fight, like the guy has never been punched and wouldn´t be expecting it. What makes someone think that eye gouging is all that different? Especially since the target is MUCH smaller. Yeah ok... dream on.

[Steve Speicher]

Biting is a realistic self-defense technique.
Biting is not an honorable martial arts technique.
Martial arts is not self-defense.

I see what you are saying Robert. Anyone can bite, the human jaws are powerful, and the teeth strong. To allow biting in a martial arts competition would be silly, as the most untrained person could cause serious injury using their mouth.

However, in a real life situation biting is a perfectly valid means of self-defense. I say this with utter confidence, because my mother was accosted in her younger years in Europe, and escaped by biting the thumb of her attacker with the intent of removing it. The attacker was surprised and in so much pain that she was able to escape without being raped or beaten. The outcome might have been much worse had she stopped to wonder whether biting was allowable as a means of defending herself.

[Steve Speicher]

Chris,
Not to mention that the eyes are also one of the most protected, reflexively, places on the human body. Who doesn't instictively protect their eyes from attack?? ..... (aside from the blind)

[Jim ashby]

Aikido is a martial art. I have studied martial arts and self defence, they are different things. Defence is "in the gravest extreme" and literally anything and I mean anything goes.The outcome is one standing and able to escape and one not able to continue the attack. The question of who would win between this one and that one is irrelevant. I agree it depends on the fighter, not the art.
Have fun.

[BC]

chrisinbrasil wrote:
Hi everybody,
Mr. Cronin, you´ve disappointed me a bit. I love your posts and you are extremely informative and pleasant to discuss with, but the fact that you have equated self-defense to martial arts got ME laughing and rolling around as you put it. Nobody said that biting was taught in a martial arts class. To my knowledge, which is quite limited, there are no kata in any art which include a roundhouse bite, or a deadly bite immobilization. The point is that biting is indeed a most splendid self defense. Self defense has never been limited to Martial Arts my dear friend.


Mr. Wilson:

I SO sorry to have "disappointed" you. :rolleyes: Geez, first its my parents, then my teachers, then my wife, then my boss, and now you. Who's left? Oh yeah, my son when he becomes a teenager.

Sigh...

My post was meant to be humorous. I'm frankly surprised that anyone actually took me seriously. However, if you want to get technical...I understand that biting might be used in a self defense situation on the street by some people, but I seriously doubt that any well-trained martial artist would do it unless it were under the most desperate of circumstances. And in such circumstances, if they allowed themselves to be placed in a position were they were forced to try biting their opponent, my belief is that they will be so compromised that it might not help them escape.

By the way, have we met? Because I didn't know that we were "dear friends." :rolleyes:

Sorry, but it's the end of the week, and I'm a little bit "punchy."

[Edited by BC on March 23, 2001 at 02:19pm]

[kohai]

There is a section within the Phillipino art of Kali called Kino Mutai-this section consists of biting and eye gouging. Kino Mutai was mentioned in Black Belt magazine a couple of months ago and was demonstrated by Paul Vunak. I don't know much about the art but there is a martial art that deals with biting.

[KaiWarrior]

As far as biting and eye gouges go. I think they are pretty easy to use, and they are effective. Here is a good example.

You are taken down to the ground and you are mounted.(Please do not comment by saying that a good Aikidoka would not be taken down) Time is against you, and you are not sure if there is more than one attacker around. Instead of "playing" the ground game and looking for a submission,You lock you legs around the opponent putting them in your guard position, and you pull your attacker's head down into your chest(very common as a BJJ "resting" and setup technique) and manuver your thumbs into your attackers eyes. Now he or she has two options. He or she can resist and subject themselves to blindness or they can attempt to retreat and allow you on your feet.(keep in mind that with their head pinned to your chest, it is hard for them to generate much punching force) If for some reason that does not work, trap one of there hands with one of your hands, and use your other hand to protect your head. Take your opponents hand and bite the everliving dog poo out of a nice tender area, or even a finger. The opponent is in a compromising position for sure!

I am not saying that this is the end all be all form of martial science, but surely anyone can see how effective these techniques can be and how easy they would be to learn and attempt in a life threatening situation.


Thanks for listening
KaiWarrior
Mitch

[darin]

KaiWarrior wrote:
Darin, I am not sure what you mean by an experienced martial artist, but I have personally used pressure points and small joint manipulations on many of my BJJ, Judo, Ninjutsu,and greco roman friends with alot of success. Granted, I have never fought a person that is a UFC champion, and I do a bit of grappling myself, but to say that these techniques are not usuable against "experienced" opponents is false. The easiest of all to use are pressure points such as the one under the mandible. One good thumb there will move many BJJ's off of you long enough to either set up a submission, our attempt to get back on your feet. It is also very easy to hit a person in the groin. Very very easy. So easy, it happens by accident alot.

Thanks for listening.

KaiWarrior
Mitch

Whatever, but remember that the UFC guys know how to strike and protect themselves on the ground. Also if eye gouging, groin strikes etc are allowed don't you think the grapplers would have more expertise using them on the ground then say stand up fighters?

Your pressure point techniques may be effective in sport juijitsu where there is no striking. If you watch Rickson Gracie or Royce Gracie fight you will see them use a lot of head butts, knees, heel kicks and punches.

[darin]

chrisinbrasil wrote:
As for Darin... whatever big guy. I hope you don´t truely subscribe to the theory that any BJJ/wrestler/grappler, would win in a real situation. That, to me, is very narrow-minded and completely subjective. It all depends on the fighter not the art.


I also believe that it all depends on the fighter. But the UFC, in its early days, showed us how effective BJJ/wrestling/grappling is. Remember that most UFC or no hold barred fighters today are well rounded fighters. They can punch, kick, throw and grapple. Also most of them have done some self defence training.

[KaiWarrior]

Darin, Although I respect your opinion, I do not think that you have alot of experience in the areas in which we are discussing. To be honest, I have never sparred on the ground without striking being allowed. We strike, knee, etc. Perhaps you should take the opportunity to do some of this type of training, so that you can see for yourself that these techniques are viable options in ground fighting.

Respectfully,
Mitch

[darin]

KaiWarrior wrote:
Darin, Although I respect your opinion, I do not think that you have alot of experience in the areas in which we are discussing. To be honest, I have never sparred on the ground without striking being allowed. We strike, knee, etc. Perhaps you should take the opportunity to do some of this type of training, so that you can see for yourself that these techniques are viable options in ground fighting.

Respectfully,
Mitch

Mitch, I totally agree with you that striking on the ground is valid. I mean you watch any of the UFC champions fight and you will see them use striking to position or defeat their opponents. But this is at an advanced level of grappling.

All I am saying is that many "self defence" techniques are very difficult to use against experienced martial artists/street fighters.

[chrisinbrasil]

KaiWarrior wrote:
As far as biting and eye gouges go. I think they are pretty easy to use, and they are effective. Here is a good example.

Now he or she has two options. He or she can resist and subject themselves to blindness or they can attempt to retreat and allow you on your feet.

Take your opponents hand and bite the everliving dog poo out of a nice tender area, or even a finger. The opponent is in a compromising position for sure!

Mitch

Though I agree with the use of biting and eye gouging as defense techniques, I don´t believe that they are easy to use or that this was a good example.

There is an old (insert country with long lineage adjective here) Proverb. There are ALWAYS more than two options. For example, some of the options you didn´t consider were: a)staying right there and covering his eyes while beating the crap out of you or b)putting his own finger in your eye which is no safer than his, since he´s on top he gets the pressure advantage, or c)for the biting example, flurrying quickly to release his hand while simultaneously elbowing you in the face or headbutting.

Biting doesn´t work as well when you try to plan it I think. Just bite whatever´s closest. Don´t try to set the guy up for a hand pin-to-bite maneuver.

To Robert. Your choice of verbal irony makes me smile. I guess I shant be your dear friend until you so desire. Didn´t mean to impose. I didn´t think the afore mentioned post sounded humorous in nature since you chided the guy then said what you did about MA equals Self-defense. Reread your post... does it sound like you didn´t mean what you said or that you were being funny? I posted what I did because it sounded odd coming from you. Therefore, excuse my pretentiousness when calling you my dear friend and poking fun at you when you say something dumb that you later try to disguise as intentional comic relief. hehe
Still feel "punchy"?
regards,
your frie... I mean guy that reads your posts from time to time and likes them but shouldn´t address you as friend,
Chris

[BC]

In truth, I actually was attemtping some humor and wasn't trying to cover my a$$ afterwards. I guess it was a poor choice of words on my part. By the way, I made a point of not criticizing Gerardo. Whatever. No biggie. Time to move on.