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Old 03-05-2001, 11:41 AM   #1
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
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I was trying to find out how many people practice judo when I came accross this:
http://judoinfo.com/kimura2.htm
Contained in here is the story of the fight between Kimura, the judo master, and Helio Gracie, as told by Kimura.

When the merits of BJJ were discussed here a while back, people mentioned the conditions of the UFC being chosen to be favorable to BJJ fighters. This story appears to tell more of the same, as Helio is repeatedly thrown onto soft mats without injury. He was defeated when Kimura broke his elbow, although he didn't actually submit. (His corner threw in the towel)

I only mention the story because I'm sure I read Helio was undefeated on a BJJ website, and it's a myth I'm delighted to be able to find fault with, fearsome competitor though he obviously was.
andrew
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Old 03-05-2001, 02:43 PM   #2
mornmd
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Ai symbol Aikido and Ultimate fighting

Aikido, by nature does not appear to be a competetive martial art. That being said at the beginning, one can analyze practical reasons why aikido would not be suited for this type of fighting. In aikido, many of the techniques can be devastating when properly applied, however on a well cushioned mat, if uke knows how to take a good ukemi, it will not be as effective at disabling an opponent as it would be on asphalt or concrete. If one argues that a submission could be gotten by a pin or joint lock after a fall, I would counter that these techniques are better expressed in the grappling arts.

The Gracie guys do seem to stack the deck with ultimate fighting. If they do not submit, the fight goes on, as in that story of the Judoka having to literally break Helio Gracie's elbow several times to win a submission. The Gracie guys say that "90% of fights go to ground," but I can't remember ever seeing that happen in real life. So the whole thing appears contrived to me.

Aikido and aikijutsu derivatives still seem very effective to me to teach one how to follow an opponents' energy or intentions. It seems particularly well suited to multiple attacks and attacks from weapons.

My two cents,
Matthew
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Old 03-05-2001, 06:02 PM   #3
mornmd
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Also

In an interview with Helio Gracie, he did claim to beat the Judoka Kimura, because Kimura said that before the fight, he doubted Gracie could last 3 minutes in the ring with him, and would consider that a victory. Gracie lasted 13 min before his team threw in the towel for a broken elbow. Wow, some victory for Gracie/grappling.

M
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Old 03-06-2001, 12:02 AM   #4
Chuck Clark
 
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One thing positive about the Ultimate Fighting stuff is... it's making a LOT of money for the guys putting it together. I suspect that's the main intent.


Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 03-06-2001, 06:34 AM   #5
Sam
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Apperently Kimura was about twice the size of Helio. If you have every tried grappling with an opponent just a few pounds heavier than you, you will realise that Helio did well to last so long.
One thing about the UFC - its probably the least graceful sporting event ever.
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Old 03-06-2001, 07:54 AM   #6
Matt Banks
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Damn I just wrote a long reply and it got lost.
Ill summarise.
1) ufc aint real, there's no multiple attacks, no eye gouging etc and interestingly most aikido tecniques are not allowed in the ufc as there counted as ''small joint manipulation'' e.g. sankajo.
2)helio lost many fights, ken shamrock always said ''a person who has never lost a fight is either lying or hasnt been in enough fights''.



thats about it

Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
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Old 03-06-2001, 08:06 AM   #7
andrew
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Quote:
Sam wrote:
Apperently Kimura was about twice the size of Helio. If you have every tried grappling with an opponent just a few pounds heavier than you, you will realise that Helio did well to last so long.
One thing about the UFC - its probably the least graceful sporting event ever.
169cm, 84Kg.
Helio was 180cm and 80Kg
There's a video clip at the site I linked to.
4Kg is, I suppose, a bit of a weight difference.
Helio tastefully brought a coffin along for Kimura. Presumably he thought it was funny he'd killed another judoka a few weeks beforehand. Kimura, apparently, thought it was hilarious when he saw it.
andrew
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Old 03-06-2001, 08:08 AM   #8
andrew
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Quote:
Matt Banks wrote:
ken shamrock always said ''a person who has never lost a fight is either lying or hasnt been in enough fights''.

Absoloutely true, but I never saw Ken in a real fight.
andrew
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Old 03-06-2001, 09:33 AM   #9
Sam
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Quote:
andrew wrote:
Quote:
Sam wrote:
Apperently Kimura was about twice the size of Helio. If you have every tried grappling with an opponent just a few pounds heavier than you, you will realise that Helio did well to last so long.
One thing about the UFC - its probably the least graceful sporting event ever.
169cm, 84Kg.
Helio was 180cm and 80Kg
There's a video clip at the site I linked to.
4Kg is, I suppose, a bit of a weight difference.
Helio tastefully brought a coffin along for Kimura. Presumably he thought it was funny he'd killed another judoka a few weeks beforehand. Kimura, apparently, thought it was hilarious when he saw it.
andrew
4kg isn't that much of a difference ( A magazine article about BJJ said Kimura was massive, but I guess it was just trying to build BJJ up) .
I guess Kimura beat him fair and square!
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Old 03-08-2001, 04:23 PM   #10
chrisinbrasil
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Kimuraīs Words...

Was there ever anything written by Helio Gracie about this confrontation? Has anyone here ever seen a response to this when asked about the "never lost" statement?

At your service,
Christopher Wilson
Hito no tachiba wo kanga eru.
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Old 03-08-2001, 05:56 PM   #11
Erik
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Quote:
andrew wrote:
Absoloutely true, but I never saw Ken in a real fight.
andrew
Read "into the Lion's Den" sometime. Assuming he's telling the truth, even some of the time, the man was a scrapper.
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Old 03-08-2001, 08:54 PM   #12
kohai
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Helio Gracie is a martial arts master and deserves respect.

That being said his undeafeated record is obviously false as demonstrated by his loss to Kimura.

Regarding the size difference between Kimura and Helio it was much more than 4 kg. Helio was 140 lbs at the time of the fight which I believe is closer to 65 kg (??). I have a copy of this fight on video and Kimura seems to outweigh Helio by at least 40 lbs.

Growing up and being involved in many "streetfights" as a kid I can honestly say that many (75%) of fights end on the ground. That being said I don't believe that a martial art makes a fighter (whether its GJJ, Aikido, or whatever) I believe that the individual determines how well he will fare in a fight.

Finally-The UFC-It is a sport with rules therefore it is not an ultimate "fighting" competition more like a wrestling match that got out of hand.

The above is my opinion based on my experience-Hope it adds to the forum

Thank-you for letting me learn from you
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Old 03-08-2001, 11:06 PM   #13
darin
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I suggest people enter the UFC or fight any of the Gracies/Machados before making any criticism.





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Old 03-09-2001, 05:00 AM   #14
andrew
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Quote:
kohai wrote:

Regarding the size difference between Kimura and Helio it was much more than 4 kg. Helio was 140 lbs at the time of the fight which I believe is closer to 65 kg (??). I have a copy of this fight on video and Kimura seems to outweigh Helio by at least 40 lbs.
well, anybody can follow the link, find the clip, and make up their own mind about that.
andrew
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Old 03-09-2001, 05:14 AM   #15
andrew
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Quote:
darin wrote:
I suggest people enter the UFC or fight any of the Gracies/Machados before making any criticism.

"Any" criticism? How about "You're lying. The facts are other than you present them." Why would somebody need to fight to point out an obvious lie? That's a really stupid argument.

Regarding Helio, I've never seen/heard/read he himself claiming to be undefeated. (On one site it says he was also defeated by a protogee) He was obviously a skilled fighter, and a tough tough guy. I get sick, though, of frequently seeing people claim he was the best fighter ever, never even got bruised(OK, I made that one up myself), or whatever level of exaggeration they feel like propagating. And I am simply glad to be able to say "No, that's not true" and in the future shut these people up.

andrew
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Old 03-09-2001, 06:25 AM   #16
Kenn
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For those lazy like me:

20,000 people came to see the bout including President of Brazil. Helio was 180cm and 80kg. When I entered the stadium, I found a coffin. I asked what it was. I was told, "This is for Kimura. Helio brought this in." It was so funny that I almost burst into laughter. As I approached the ring, raw eggs were thrown at me. The gong rang. Helio grabbed me in both lapels, and attacked me with O-soto-gari and Kouchi-gari. But they did not move me at all. Now it's my turn. I blew him away up in the air by O-uchi-gari, Harai-goshi, Uchimata, Ippon-seoi. At about 10 minute mark, I threw him by O-soto-gari. I intended to cause a concussion. But since the mat was so soft that it did not have much impact on him. While continuing to throw him, I was thinking of a finishing method. I threw him by O-soto-gari again. As soon as Helio fell, I pinned him by Kuzure-kami-shiho-gatame. I held still for 2 or 3 minutes, and then tried to smother him by belly. Helio shook his head trying to breathe. He could not take it any longer, and tried to push up my body extending his left arm. That moment, I grabbed his left wrist with my right hand, and twisted up his arm. I applied Udegarami. I thought he would surrender immediately. But Helio would not tap the mat. I had no choice but keep on twisting the arm. The stadium became quiet. The bone of his arm was coming close to the breaking point. Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Helio still did not surrender. His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the left arm again. Another bone was broken. Helio still did not tap. When I tried to twist the arm once more, a white towel was thrown in. I won by TKO. My hand was raised high. Japanese Brazilians rushed into the ring and tossed me up in the air. On the other hand, Helio let his left arm hang and looked very sad withstanding the pain.

Peace, Kenn

Kenn

Remember, the only way to be happy always, is to be happy always, without reason.
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Old 03-09-2001, 09:42 AM   #17
ian
 
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Well based on that, I think I would refrain from challenging either of them.

Ian
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Old 03-11-2001, 07:09 PM   #18
darin
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Quote:
andrew wrote:
Quote:
darin wrote:
I suggest people enter the UFC or fight any of the Gracies/Machados before making any criticism.

"Any" criticism? How about "You're lying. The facts are other than you present them." Why would somebody need to fight to point out an obvious lie? That's a really stupid argument.

Regarding Helio, I've never seen/heard/read he himself claiming to be undefeated. (On one site it says he was also defeated by a protogee) He was obviously a skilled fighter, and a tough tough guy. I get sick, though, of frequently seeing people claim he was the best fighter ever, never even got bruised(OK, I made that one up myself), or whatever level of exaggeration they feel like propagating. And I am simply glad to be able to say "No, that's not true" and in the future shut these people up.

andrew
You should take it up with Helio and his family personally. Its probably the only way to find out what is true. As you know with famous people there you have to take everything with a pinch of salt. I doubt Ueshiba was able to do all those so called magical things. I mean seriously now thats exageratting.
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Old 03-21-2001, 03:53 PM   #19
The One
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Question

Sorry but, what is BJJ???

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-21-2001, 04:05 PM   #20
Steve Speicher
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BJJ = Brazilian Ju-jitsu

Steve
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Old 03-21-2001, 05:43 PM   #21
chrisinbrasil
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Cool Been there, done that.

Quote:
darin wrote:
I suggest people enter the UFC or fight any of the Gracies/Machados before making any criticism.
Donīt know about the Machados, but the Gracies are quite good.
No criticism, just introspection, confusion, exhaustion, and a bit of pain. Itīs like fighting an anaconda.

At your service,
Christopher Wilson
Hito no tachiba wo kanga eru.
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Old 03-22-2001, 01:17 AM   #22
Gerardo A Torres
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I have a few issues against the UFC, primarily:

1. The whole ethical issue of arranged fights. Whatever the promoters/fighters say, the focus is on money and fame.
2. Too much focus on promoting certain styles (BJJ).
3. Once you get past the ethical issues, there's the problem with the rules. They have rules. Lots of rules. Below I'm copying the complete set of rules from the MMAC website, which applies to the UFC:

In MMAC sanctioned events [UFC], the use of any of the following techniques shall result in a foul [each foul carries a fine, three fouls gets you disqualified]:

-biting
-eye gouging of any kind (includes chin)
-throat strikes of any kind
-no fingers in opponent's mouth or nose (fishhooking)
-hair pulling
-headbutting
-elbow strikes to back of head or neck
-pressure point strikes of any kind
-groin attacks of any kind
-small joint manipulation
-kicking a downed opponent (three support points kneeling, sitting or prone)
-spitting at opponent
-holding onto fence to stall action
-faking an injury
-unwillingness to fight, timidity (includes dropping to backside)
-lifting or throwing opponent out of enclosed fighting area
-corner interference


So pretty much any kind of realistic self-defense technique (biting, hair pulling, eye gouging) is invalid. Atemi to the groin (which in the aikido style I do is emphasized constantly, specially for "uchi" techniques) cannot be used. A throat strike can disable somebody immediatly (bell rings... throat strike... its over), but I guess it wouldn't attract a large pay-per-view audience. No use of pressue points means that entire martial art styles are not able to participate in UFCs. No small joint manipulation --no sankyo!? -- sometimes all you need to release a hold is to grab a finger, or a pressure point if you know them. A strike to the neck and a kick to the ribs are severe (yet realistic) ways ways of ending a kaiten nage entry and an ikkyo entry, respectively --these are not allowed either. The list of things you cannot do goes on.

How can one train in martial arts in order to use in real life and have so many contraints? Unless... you don't train martial arts to use in real life but to use in these type of events, in which case we're talking about a different kind of artist.

I've seen quite a few of the UFC, and I don't know why I keep watching them (can't control my curiosity I guess), but every time I watch them I end up dissapointed and feeling that these events are a disgrace to martial arts in general.

So much for Ultimate...
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Old 03-22-2001, 05:07 AM   #23
Sam
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I guess the rules have changed a lot over time.
In the original I saw a lot of elbowing to the neck. It seemed to be the generally agreed way to finish somebody off. (nasty huh?)
In number 3, the only reason Royce Gracie won his bout with the huge monster 'Kimo' was that he managed to take him to the floor while pulling his hair. Under the current rules he would have had a torrid time.
I guess it has had to become more of a sport now the audience has expanded.
I haven't seen it for a long time, but what I remember most about it is most bouts ended up with both fighters laying on each other exhausted for about five minutes followed by a small movement and then another five minute rest.
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Old 03-22-2001, 06:29 PM   #24
darin
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Quote:
gerardo wrote:
I have a few issues against the UFC, primarily:

1. The whole ethical issue of arranged fights. Whatever the promoters/fighters say, the focus is on money and fame.
2. Too much focus on promoting certain styles (BJJ).
3. Once you get past the ethical issues, there's the problem with the rules. They have rules. Lots of rules. Below I'm copying the complete set of rules from the MMAC website, which applies to the UFC:

In MMAC sanctioned events [UFC], the use of any of the following techniques shall result in a foul [each foul carries a fine, three fouls gets you disqualified]:

-biting
-eye gouging of any kind (includes chin)
-throat strikes of any kind
-no fingers in opponent's mouth or nose (fishhooking)
-hair pulling
-headbutting
-elbow strikes to back of head or neck
-pressure point strikes of any kind
-groin attacks of any kind
-small joint manipulation
-kicking a downed opponent (three support points kneeling, sitting or prone)
-spitting at opponent
-holding onto fence to stall action
-faking an injury
-unwillingness to fight, timidity (includes dropping to backside)
-lifting or throwing opponent out of enclosed fighting area
-corner interference


So pretty much any kind of realistic self-defense technique (biting, hair pulling, eye gouging) is invalid. Atemi to the groin (which in the aikido style I do is emphasized constantly, specially for "uchi" techniques) cannot be used. A throat strike can disable somebody immediatly (bell rings... throat strike... its over), but I guess it wouldn't attract a large pay-per-view audience. No use of pressue points means that entire martial art styles are not able to participate in UFCs. No small joint manipulation --no sankyo!? -- sometimes all you need to release a hold is to grab a finger, or a pressure point if you know them. A strike to the neck and a kick to the ribs are severe (yet realistic) ways ways of ending a kaiten nage entry and an ikkyo entry, respectively --these are not allowed either. The list of things you cannot do goes on.

How can one train in martial arts in order to use in real life and have so many contraints? Unless... you don't train martial arts to use in real life but to use in these type of events, in which case we're talking about a different kind of artist.

I've seen quite a few of the UFC, and I don't know why I keep watching them (can't control my curiosity I guess), but every time I watch them I end up dissapointed and feeling that these events are a disgrace to martial arts in general.

So much for Ultimate...
Majority of the techniques you talk about are almost impossible to use on experienced martial artists.

Even if you had a 100% realistic no rules competition the BJJ/Wrestlers/Grapplers would still win.


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Old 03-23-2001, 04:47 AM   #25
KaiWarrior
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Darin, I am not sure what you mean by an experienced martial artist, but I have personally used pressure points and small joint manipulations on many of my BJJ, Judo, Ninjutsu,and greco roman friends with alot of success. Granted, I have never fought a person that is a UFC champion, and I do a bit of grappling myself, but to say that these techniques are not usuable against "experienced" opponents is false. The easiest of all to use are pressure points such as the one under the mandible. One good thumb there will move many BJJ's off of you long enough to either set up a submission, our attempt to get back on your feet. It is also very easy to hit a person in the groin. Very very easy. So easy, it happens by accident alot.

Thanks for listening.

KaiWarrior
Mitch

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