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Ron Tisdale
08-06-2004, 12:18 PM
Hi folks,

I'm a yoshinkaner here, so bear with me...

In standard aikikai practice, people often say onigaishimasu to each other when requesting a partner to train with (please help/teach/instruct me, right?). Is this typically said by the jr. to the senior only, or by both partners, or by whoever is asking, and the one who accepts says nothing?

Based on the meaning, I usually say it in aikikai settings regardless of the rank of the person I'm asking to train with for a couple of reasons:

1) since I don't usually train in the aikikai, I figure just about everyone is my senior there

2) even if I am senior (or by some strange trick of fate, actually have something usefull to share) I have no problem asking for instruction from a jr.

Can some people from various associations here (in the states) and in japan enlighten me as to common practice and true meaning?

Thanks,
Ron (yoshinkan impaired / inhanced [your choice] aikidoka)

Chuck Clark
08-06-2004, 12:49 PM
Hi Ron,

In my background, the meaning (in a dojo setting as opposed to in common use in Japan during daily activities) has been explained to me like this. Onegaishimasu = "Please, would you train with me?" Along with this invitation to do something together is an implied agreement that we'll do our best to do this as well as we can and take care of each other.

Juniors usually ask the senior and the senior nods or says something that acknowledges their understanding of the agreement.

This has been explained to me by several senior budo teachers in similar ways but the capsulized version above is mine.

I have heard many other interpretations over the years. I'm always curious to hear more...

Ron Tisdale
08-06-2004, 12:52 PM
Hi Chuck!
So by this understanding then, it would be inappropriate for the senior to respond with 'onegishimasu', correct?

Thanks!
Ron

John Boswell
08-06-2004, 01:10 PM
An observation:

We have a nidan at my dojo who first studied aikido under Frank Doran Sensei in San Fransico. This nidan always begins practice with each individual with "Onegaishimasu" at the start of each technique. His definition of it is about the same as what Sensei Clark has said above, but I've never seen any issue with it as far as rank goes.

My interpretation of it is: it's just good manners! Saying Onegaishimasu is, in my mind, asking someone to train with you in such a way as to help you learn and neither of you get hurt. And afterwards, you thank them with "Domo arigato."

My organization is AAA, and I've seen it done this way at seminars as well as in my own dojo. Dunno if this will help... hope so. :)

Ron Tisdale
08-06-2004, 01:14 PM
It all helps, as it increases my understanding. Thanks,
RT

Greg Jennings
08-06-2004, 01:23 PM
http://www.aikiweb.com/language/onegai.html

Don_Modesto
08-06-2004, 01:27 PM
Hey, Ron. I haven't paid enough attention to details while training to answer your question precisely, but fwiw...

I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".

I've noticed a trend for saying "Onegai Shimasu" both before and after training. I have a couple of students from an Iwama dojo who do that and also say it to me after I've offered a suggestion on their technique. (I'd be interested in comments from people who do this.) I always say thank you in that situation myself.

In Japan, it's used whenever a request is being made and then having been made and granted, used again, i.e., they don't say thank you at that point as we do in English, they repeat "Onegai Shimasu" (in the logic of Jpn protocol, thanking someone at this point is presumptuous somehow).

...not directly pertinent to your question, but I hope it's interesting anyway. Take care.

Ron Tisdale
08-06-2004, 01:36 PM
kool, its good to get so much input. Jun's description is really worth reading, and gives me the impression that the form we use is pretty much stripped of rank connotations. I asked because someone recently told me that only a jr. would say this to a senior...it had never really struck me that way, and I kind of like saying it to anyone I'm training with. Of course, when in Rome...

Thanks again all,
Ron

ps, Hi Don, check out the latest post on e-budo in the AJJ dojo finder, you might have an answer...
RT

akiy
08-06-2004, 01:44 PM
I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".
Basically, likewise here -- although I usually say, "Thank you!" after I train with someone.

It seems odd to my Japanese ears to hear "onegaishimasu" after training. It's usually said before whatever it is that you wish to have the other person undertake (eg train with you, pick you up at the airport, etc)...

I can say that I've heard senior people say that phrase to juniors, most ostensibly in bowing to start a class when they're teaching it. Of course, it's all intertwined in the Japanese hierarchical society. One might argue by saying, "onegaishimasu" that you're placing yourself "under" the other person (as you are, in a way, asking for a favor of the other party). As such, a person more senior might ask you if you can do something for them by asking, "Can you ------ for me?" rather than putting it as a "favor" of sorts.

But, to answer Ron's original question, I'd say that most of the time, both parties training will say, "onegaishimasu" to each other before training. It doesn't seem odd for me to say such to my partner regardless of their rank...

-- Jun

Charles Hill
08-06-2004, 02:11 PM
This nidan always begins practice with each individual with "Onegaishimasu" at the start of each technique.

The younger shihan/shidouin who teach the beginner classes at the Aikikai Honbu do the same, although their purpose might be to model proper behaviour for the students.

Charles Hill

Chuck Clark
08-06-2004, 03:41 PM
Hello,

I often hear onegaishimasu used in reply to someone as they begin, however, there is a "different" intonation that seems to mean to me, "Yes, please lets do...thanks for asking" ... kinda and then thank you (in whatever language is appropriate) after the practice. This often happens quickly and informally depending on the situation, etc.

I do think the word implies an "agreement" or yakusoku that saying please in English does not often carry with it. I like the idea and custom of this understood agreement.

Good discussion, thanks.

senseimike
08-06-2004, 03:55 PM
I always understood it to mean "I ask of you a favor" or something in that nature. The students say it to sensei at the beginning of class to ask the favor of teaching them. The sensei says it to the students at the beginning to ask the favor of their attention. The students say it to each other to ask the favor of training and taking ukemi for each other, basically the favor of the use of their bodies. Just my take on it... may not be correct

Lan Powers
08-06-2004, 06:08 PM
As our instructor has put it to us, ...."Thank you for this favor".
You do the favor to train together....both sides gain. (aiki for it to benifit both without indebtedness implied, to my thought) I like Mike Taylors take on this. :)
Interesting to hear other viewpoints....

Charles Hill
08-06-2004, 06:14 PM
Japanese kids in candy or toy shops scream " onegai, onegai, onegai" when they want mom or dad to buy something. So I guess it can be translated as "do it for me or you'll never hear the end of it."

Charles Hill

otto
08-06-2004, 06:20 PM
Pardon my ignorance ,but i've never heard this word used on an aikido dojo as implied here...

I'm curious about its pronuciation , is in form of an answer? or more like a request?

Japanese kids in candy or toy shops scream " onegai, onegai, onegai" when they want mom or dad to buy something. So I guess it can be translated as "do it for me or you'll never hear the end of it."

LOL , I'll have to teach that to my niece :D

Quite a bit of interesting info guys , keep it coming..

maikerus
08-06-2004, 09:03 PM
I'm in Yoshinkan as well and when I trained in Canada I don't believe anyone ever said "onegaishimasu" on the mat (although we always bowed out with "arigatou gozaimashita).

When I came to Japan my first experience with the word was to Kancho Sensei when we were introduced as the members of that years Senshusei course. I remember having a really hard time trying to remember how to pronounce it as I stood up in front of everyone and bowed to him <wry grin>. At the time it was explained to me as "please think upon me favourably" or something close to that that doesn't have an English translation.

Aside: If anyone's interested I think I was told to remember "On a guy she must" and drop the final "T". Okay..not politically correct, but I did remember it! Also, for "doitashimashita" or "you're welcome" I was told to remember "Don't touch my mustache".

During the senshusei course we used "onegaishimasu" as part of our morning shinkoku (report) to the instructors, but not on the mats.

As I stayed in Japan longer I started using it more because it is a large part of Japanese society and language. Interestingly enough, now that I am running my own dojo I have found that most Japanese beginners use "onegaishimasu" automatically when they are beginning to train with their partners. Yoshinkan has a formalized "bowing to partner" before beginning a technique and my Japanese beginners add the "onegaishimasu" during that. My foreign beginners just look a little stunned at the whole bowing thing (unless they've been in Japan for awhile).

I have also noticed that Yoshinkan children's classes have the kids yelling out "Onegaishimasu" at appropriate times. And, now that I think about it, my son's daycare events have the kids lining up and shouting "onegaishimasu" at appropriate times to each other and to the parents.

My son also says "onegai" meaning "please" when he wants something. And if I don't say yes immediately it becomes "onegai! onegai! onegai!".

I guess all this means is that I see "onegaishimasu" as being a significant part of Japanese society (like please/thank-you/excuse me) and is taught to kids as they grow up (like please/thank-you/excuse me) and since we're studying a Japanese martial art we're picking up on this stuff.

As to why its much more prevalent in Aikikai than Yoshinkan...I haven't a clue. Maybe it's because us Yoshinkan types use "Osu!" to cover a zillion meanings that include all those covered by "Onegaishimasu" and we wouldn't want to be inefficient in our use of language <grin>.

Osu!

--Michael

-

Berney Fulcher
08-07-2004, 07:18 AM
There seem to be a lot of Japanese phrases that are used very widely. I'm finding it hard to get a cross cultural/language handle on this. For instance in Aikido, it seems like "Onegaishimasu", "Hai", "Osu" are used a lot in a lot of very different situations.

I'm not sure if this question makes sense, but are there equivalent English / American phrases that would be similarly used? I'm just trying to get a gut level comparison that my mind can wrap itself around...

Lyle Laizure
08-08-2004, 09:59 PM
Onegaishimasu as it was explained to me mean "please, I ask a favor of you" Specifically between practice partners it's sub meaning is that I am offering you my body to use as a training tool please don't abuse it. Between sensei and student I would assume it would mean the same.

batemanb
08-10-2004, 01:30 AM
Tossing into the melting pot, I was taught that "Yoroshiku Onegaishimasu" is translated as "please do me a favour", or "please look kindly on me". "Onegaishimasu" is the shortened version but is used in the context "please look kindly on me". When I was in Japan, at my local dojo everyone said "onegaishimasu" at the first rei, and every time you started to work with a new partner (which was each new technique). At the Kobe dojo I visit often, they have the same formality. At the Aikikai Hombu, the same, but you stick with the same partner, my memory is fuzzy here, but I recollect saying it for each technique, but that may just have been me.

I don't recollect anywhere that seniors didn't say to juniors in normal practice, but I do recollect that if you partnered up with someone of a high level (6th Dan upwards), some of the Shihan just bowed, the onegai if said, was inaudible.

If we were changing partners, we would say "arigato gozaimasu" at the end of training with each partner.


rgds

Bryan

Robert Cheshire
08-11-2004, 07:45 AM
We use this phrase in Yoseikan too. I have always been taught, and as a result teach, that it means "please show/teach me." It is said by both individuals (senior and junior) because both can offer a teaching experience to the other. Obviously, the senior can teach the "technique" to the junior. However, (I think this is sometimes overlooked) the junior can provide the senior a new way to learn how to teach the technique. There are people that have limitations (skill, age, physical handicaps, etc.) where the technique must be taught a little differently than the "traditional" way. Simply said it is (should be at least) a reciprocal relationship. At the end of training we add the formal Japanese "thank you" for the same reasons - thank you for what you have just showed/taught me.

Ron Tisdale
08-11-2004, 08:10 AM
Thank you all for your continued responses...I've learned a bunch!

Ron

Josh Reyer
03-03-2007, 10:10 AM
"Onegai shimasu" is one of those phrases that are a completely normal part of everyday Japanese culture that can sometimes be mystified and grandified beyond it's rather mundane usage.

First, a little linguistic background. As Jun mentioned in his linked post, "o + verb stem + suru (shimasu in this case)" is kenjougo, or "humble speech". One uses humble speech to indicate lower status, and/or modesty. However, "onegai shimasu" is so commonly used in everyday speech that it's actually moved to a different sphere. Rather than carrying connotations of modesty or lower status, it's more like teineigo, "polite speech". It's used in contexts when we'd use "Please", "Thanks," and "I'd appreciate it." For an example of the last two, my boss will frequently say, "You have to do A, B, and C. Onegai shimasu." My aikido sensei will say, "Everyone make sure you've paid the monthly dues! Onegai shimasu." Here the phrase has less literal meaning (sensei isn't saying "I humbly request your monthly dues,") it's more like a general softener tacked on to requests and orders.

Here's an example from our weekly meetings.
Manager: "Miitingu wo hajimemasu." (We'll begin the meeting.)
Us: "Onegai shimasu." (bowing in our seats)
Manager: "Onegai shimasu."

Here, again, the "onegai shimasu"es don't really have a specific meaning. We're not really saying "We humbly request that you do begin the meeting" (and the manager saying, "I humbly request your attention). The manager simply announces the beginning of the meeting, and our "onegai shimasu" is just an acknowledgment of that, and if anything marks a certain change in "kamae", from relaxing and joking before the meeting to being attentive and focused during the meeting. The manager's "onegai shimasu" is just a reflexive response (typically she's not even looking at us, but going over her notes or something). The meeting ends and everyone says, "Arigatou gozaimashita".

This is almost exactly the case in the dojo. Or at least my dojo. We sit in seiza, waiting for the sensei to begin the class. He comes over, kneels down, talks about some related business (upcoming testing, new member introductions, perhaps an acknowledgment of someone who's come for the first time in a while, etc.) and then bows and said "Jaa, hajimemasu. Onegai shimasu." We bow, say "Onegai shimasu" (except this is a dojo, so it's more like, "Ngai shmassss") and then right into tai no henko. Again, here they essentially mark the beginning of class, and acknowledgment of that and change of focus.

Likewise, the "onegai shimasu" between two students who are about to practice doesn't carry precise meaning (aside from maybe "Please be my partner"), and in my dojo, at least, is completely divorced from rank. Whoever notices the other person first is the first to say it, regardless of sempai-kohai. It's essentially an attention-getter/signal of change in attitude.

Another example outside of aikido: you'll see almost all interviews on TV/radio begin with mutual "onegai shimasu"es.

crbateman
03-03-2007, 10:57 AM
Japanese is all Greek to me :D , but I have often wondered why, if "onegai shimasu" is supposed to be a formal statement in this context, should not "onegai shimashita" be used? My limited training has imparted that the "-masu" verbs are informal, and the "-mashita" verbs are formal. (Of course, I have also learned that there are seemingly infinite exceptions to this type of grammatical "rule". I think I'll stick to English. I have a hard enough time with that. ;)

Josh Reyer
03-03-2007, 11:57 AM
Japanese is all Greek to me :D , but I have often wondered why, if "onegai shimasu" is supposed to be a formal statement in this context, should not "onegai shimashita" be used? My limited training has imparted that the "-masu" verbs are informal, and the "-mashita" verbs are formal. (Of course, I have also learned that there are seemingly infinite exceptions to this type of grammatical "rule". I think I'll stick to English. I have a hard enough time with that. ;)

Actually, "-masu" and "-mashita" forms are polite/formal. The former is the imperfective (present and future tense), and the latter the perfective (past tense). "Onegai shimasu" - "I make/will make a humble request." "Onegai shimashita" - "I made a humble request."

crbateman
03-03-2007, 12:17 PM
So "arigato gozaimasu" is "thank you" and "arigato gozaimashita" is "thanked you"??? Now you know why this poor ole country boy gave up...:confused: Returning now to my Jeff Foxworthy picture book...

Josh Reyer
03-03-2007, 12:32 PM
So "arigato gozaimasu" is "thank you" and "arigato gozaimashita" is "thanked you"??? Now you know why this poor ole country boy gave up...:confused: Returning now to my Jeff Foxworthy picture book...

Well "Arigatou" derives from "arigatai", originally meaning "rare, precious", and thus to the modern meaning "grateful, thankful". "Arigatou gozaimasu" is a rather archaic form essentially meaning "(what you do/have done/will do for me) is rare and precious (and thus I am grateful)". "Arigatou gozaimashita" essentially means "(what you did for me) was rare and precious (and thus I am grateful)".

So basically you use "Arigatou gozaimasu" for something someone is doing or will do, and "Arigatou gozaimashita" for something they already did. Although "Arigatou gozaimasu" can also be used in that situation. My understanding is that the Japanese people collectively decided to do this just to screw with newbies to Japanese. :D

charyuop
03-03-2007, 01:00 PM
When I was a teenager I tried to study Japanese as self taught student. The hardest part was giving a meaning to a phrase. Many times you could translate the whole phrase, but not catch the real meaning, or misunderstand it.

I have always seen the Onegaishimasu as the English "Pleae". If you turn towards a dojo mate and tell him please it can be meant by you as in "please, step on the mat", "please, train with me", "please, help me learn", "please, I am a beginner, don't hurt me too much hee hee"...and so on. I have always seen as Onegaishimasu the same way, it is in the mind of who says it the meaning hidden in it.
Same way I gave my interpretation of Doomoarigatoogozaimasuta. Even tho literally it should mean "I Thanked You", I have always meant it as "I thank you for what you just did".

Joshua, I have a question. By what you said about Onegaishimasu, is it correct to say that it has a similar meaning of Doozo?

crbateman
03-03-2007, 02:18 PM
My understanding is that the Japanese people collectively decided to do this just to screw with newbies to Japanese. :D
Mission accomplished...

I have a brushing of O'Sensei's, and weeks of discussion among even native speakers transpired, without a firm consensus even of whether it should be read left-to -right or right-to-left.

Josh Reyer
03-03-2007, 11:54 PM
Joshua, I have a question. By what you said about Onegaishimasu, is it correct to say that it has a similar meaning of Doozo?

Just "Josh", onegai shimasu. :)

Doozo and onegai shimasu are quite different, meaning-wise.

One use of "doozo" is an intensifier in requests and prayers. In this way it might seem similar to "onegai shimasu", since it's so often related to "negau", humbly requesting or praying for something. But it's merely in an intensifier, essentially meaning "somehow, in some way".

"Doozo" is used in this manner, then, when offering someone something. Imagine you offer someone some food. In Japanese society, you downplay the quality of whatever you are giving someone, so you say, "Doozo omeshiagari kudasai". Translated somewhat stilted, "Please partake of this somehow." From this kind of usage it's become now commonplace in any kind of situation where you offer or give something to another person, or indeed, just handing someone something.

Me: So-and-so-san, could you hand me that stapler?
So-and-so-san (grabbing the stapler and holding it out in my direction): Hai, doozo.
Me: A, doomo.

And so now, when one says "Doozo tabete kudasai" (please eat this), it doesn't so much have the sense of "somehow, in some way", but rather, "Go ahead and eat, please!"

Josh Reyer
03-03-2007, 11:55 PM
Mission accomplished...

I have a brushing of O'Sensei's, and weeks of discussion among even native speakers transpired, without a firm consensus even of whether it should be read left-to -right or right-to-left.

Seriously? That kind of thing tends to be easy to figure out... :confused:

Mato-san
03-07-2007, 06:42 AM
Ngai shmassss....I like that...thanks Josh I get lost here sometimes. Great points made!

Ngai shmassss is that similar to the shop keeper that says agagozamassta? as you leave the mise?

MM
03-07-2007, 07:26 AM
So "arigato gozaimasu" is "thank you" and "arigato gozaimashita" is "thanked you"??? Now you know why this poor ole country boy gave up...:confused: Returning now to my Jeff Foxworthy picture book...

Let's see if I can translate this. :)

In Jeff Foxworthy terms.

masu, as in arigato gozaimasu would be if a relative came up to you and gave you ten dollars that they owed you. You'd say, right then, "Shiiiiiiit, 'bout time ya paid me back, Cousin/Uncle/Grandfather Slim." Translated -- arigato gozaimasu. (English - Thank you for repaying me right now.)

Now, let's say that yesterday your neighbor helped you round up five cows that had strayed beyond your fence. The neighbor had something to do so you didn't get to talk to him after you put the cows back in your field. You see the neighbor the next day and say, "Hey Billy Bob, ya'll sure got me out of a pickle tha ot'er day." Translation -- arigato gozaimashita. (English - Thank you for helping me yesterday)

Mark

Mato-san
03-07-2007, 08:18 AM
nice translation mark.....so we have past tense and present of thank you very much but what does onegaishimasu mean in the context of Aikido and in accord to rank and forms of speaking in a cultured kind of way in regards to the mat ,thank you? Josh? I think you already had a nice say on this...but it seems we are moving towards comedy.....I can handle that wait let me get another beer!

Mark Uttech
03-07-2007, 03:31 PM
Onegaishimasu: "please, to share this practice..." That to me also means: "please, to share this moment". So it is an excellent honorific to use when writing letters, answering the phone, etc. I usually accompany it with a slight standing bow. It is a true way of bringing aikido into the world off the mat, which brings it to yourself as well.

In gassho

Mark

Peter Goldsbury
03-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Let's see if I can translate this. :)

In Jeff Foxworthy terms.

masu, as in arigato gozaimasu would be if a relative came up to you and gave you ten dollars that they owed you. You'd say, right then, "Shiiiiiiit, 'bout time ya paid me back, Cousin/Uncle/Grandfather Slim." Translated -- arigato gozaimasu. (English - Thank you for repaying me right now.)

Now, let's say that yesterday your neighbor helped you round up five cows that had strayed beyond your fence. The neighbor had something to do so you didn't get to talk to him after you put the cows back in your field. You see the neighbor the next day and say, "Hey Billy Bob, ya'll sure got me out of a pickle tha ot'er day." Translation -- arigato gozaimashita. (English - Thank you for helping me yesterday)

Mark

Here is an example commonly used in day-to-day Japanese. My nephew is staying with me and we spent a few days in Tokyo. At every station we heard this refrain on the Shinkansen.

As the train left Tokyo Station, and all the other stations on the route:
Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimasu.
Thank you for using the Shinkansen.

Shortly before the train stopped at each station:
Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimashita.
Thank you for using (=having used) the Shinkansen.

Best wishes,

MM
03-07-2007, 06:46 PM
Here is an example commonly used in day-to-day Japanese. My nephew is staying with me and we spent a few days in Tokyo. At every station we heard this refrain on the Shinkansen.

As the train left Tokyo Station, and all the other stations on the route:
Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimasu.
Thank you for using the Shinkansen.

Shortly before the train stopped at each station:
Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimashita.
Thank you for using (=having used) the Shinkansen.

Best wishes,

Ah, a very nice example, sensei. arigatou gozaimashita.

Mark

Mato-san
03-09-2007, 08:28 AM
Onegaishimasu: "please, to share this practice..." That to me also means: "please, to share this moment". So it is an excellent honorific to use when writing letters, answering the phone, etc. I usually accompany it with a slight standing bow. It is a true way of bringing aikido into the world off the mat, which brings it to yourself as well.

In gassho

Mark

This is exactly how I would see it! But then again off the mat it holds different meaning based on context and by no means am I an expert I have only lived in Japan 2 years but if I wanted to make it simple I would say that it means "lets do" and applied to different situations it would take on a different meaning. Josh is more informed on this level.

Pauliina Lievonen
03-09-2007, 10:38 AM
Onegaishimasu always reminds me of a phrase I learned when my family moved to a town in northern Finland when I was 9. Kids up there will ask each other, on the playground or coming to the front door "Will you begin me?" ("Alakkonää mua?") and yes, it's sounds just as odd and grammatically incorrect in Finnish. :D Anyway, what they mean is "will you come out and play with me?" and that's the same feel I have with onegaishimasu when I bow to my partner. :)

kvaak
Pauliina

Ethan Weisgard
03-15-2007, 02:00 AM
Hey, Ron. I haven't paid enough attention to details while training to answer your question precisely, but fwiw...

I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".

I've noticed a trend for saying "Onegai Shimasu" both before and after training. I have a couple of students from an Iwama dojo who do that and also say it to me after I've offered a suggestion on their technique. (I'd be interested in comments from people who do this.) I always say thank you in that situation myself.

In Japan, it's used whenever a request is being made and then having been made and granted, used again, i.e., they don't say thank you at that point as we do in English, they repeat "Onegai Shimasu" (in the logic of Jpn protocol, thanking someone at this point is presumptuous somehow).

...not directly pertinent to your question, but I hope it's interesting anyway. Take care.

Hey, Ron. I haven't paid enough attention to details while training to answer your question precisely, but fwiw...

I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".

I've noticed a trend for saying "Onegai Shimasu" both before and after training. I have a couple of students from an Iwama dojo who do that and also say it to me after I've offered a suggestion on their technique. (I'd be interested in comments from people who do this.) I always say thank you in that situation myself.

In Japan, it's used whenever a request is being made and then having been made and granted, used again, i.e., they don't say thank you at that point as we do in English, they repeat "Onegai Shimasu" (in the logic of Jpn protocol, thanking someone at this point is presumptuous somehow).

...not directly pertinent to your question, but I hope it's interesting anyway. Take care.

Hi Don,

In reply to your question regarding Iwama dojo reigi: when we were in the dojo under the tutelage of Saito Morihiro Sensei, the person who received instructions or corrections from Sensei during the class would bow (zarei) and say "arigatou gozaimshita." The person's partner would bow as well (zarei) and say "onegaishimasu."

If the person who was the partner to the person who was being corrected wanted to, this person could also say "arigatou gozaimashita" instead of "onegaishimasu."

Other trainees who were in the vicinity of the people who were receiving the corrections would sit down while Sensei was demonstrating, to make room for him, and show respect. These people would also say "onegaishimsu" when he was done with his corrections. This is the equivalent of when Sensei would show a technique for the entire class, and then say "Hai, dozo" as a sign for us to begin training. All the practitioners would bow and say "onegaishimasu," before beginning practice.

I believe that the tendency for some Iwama practitioners to say "onegaishimasu" when they are finished training with their partner, and are bowing "out", may come from the abovementioned situation, and a misunderstanding of what to say and when. In this kind of situation you had one person (the one who received the correction) saying “arigatou gozaimashita” and a whole bunch of people saying “onegaishimasu.” It is possible that foreign students thought that they should use what most people were saying, namely “onegaishimasu” in situations like these.
The Japanese practitioners in the dojo would not finish a training session by saying say "onegaishimasu." I try to explain to students here in Europe who finish their training and say "onegaishimasu" that this is a phrase for beginning your practice with someone, and not a means to thank them. It actually indicates that you want to continue to practice!

Another possible reason for using "onegaishimasu" in other settings could be that people equate it with the ubiquitous term "osu." There could be a cross-over influence from “osu” since this is used for just about anything. I remember that Inagaki Sensei’s students would always say “osu” in the Iwama dojo, and Sensei finally told them that you don’t use “osu” in the dojo here-to which they all replied with a loud “OSU!” A great dojo moment!

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Josh Reyer
03-15-2007, 11:58 AM
Mishearing may also be the culprit as well. Said in the quick and rough way that many Japanese budo folk tend to use, "arigatou gozaimasu" can sound a lot like "onegai shimasu." Particularly in the Kanto area, where "g" is often pronounced like the "ng" in "singer". As I said, in my dojo "onegai shimasu" often comes out as "Ngai shmassss." "Arigatou gozaimasu" often comes out "Ar'ga't'g'zaimasu". (Needless to say, it's not easy to transcribe!)

Ethan Weisgard
03-17-2007, 05:58 AM
Hello Josh,

I agree with your point also, regarding mishearing. Actually it's not even mishearing, it's the alternative pronunciation, as you mentioned. I have heard some pretty funny ones, and by native speakers as well; ranging from "..shmas!" to a bellowed "Yoooosu!" (clearly leaning towards our aforementioned ubiquitous "osu!").
Not to mention the tendency for some non-Japanese to pronounce the "gae" in onegaeshimasu as "gei" (Japanese pronunciation stated), creating a sentence that sounds llike something spoken by Yoda - have fum enterpreting what he might be saying:-)

Best regards,

Ethan

jennifer paige smith
03-27-2007, 09:25 AM
Ah, 'tis so good to be in the company of people concerned with courtesy. In case any one else has noticed too, we're in a society(American) that is tragically short on politeness and courtesy.
I've paid alot of attention to this subject because courtesy is part of the backbone of healthy relationships. So here goes my spiel:

Oneigaishima(su) is the future tense of the word thank you. It means thanks in advance(a.k.a."please") for what we're about to do together. Japanese Hierarchy can be brushed aside at this point. Agreements to train are mutual relationships(you are the universe and so is your partner) and the voicing of a request is only appropriately responded to with the exact same courtesy, 'onegaishimasu'. The subtlety with which this request (eye gestures, a grunt, a nod) is made is as subtle as all language and takes an effort to gain nuance The words are signals that you will be treated with deserved respect for your offering. This applies in all training.
It is very important to understand the words that you are using so that you may use them appropriately. Onegaishimasu is not interchangable with Domo Arigato gozaimashita strictly based on word tense. Gozaima(shita) is past tense and refers to what has already happened.Onegaishima(su) is future tense.
As for the amount of use of courtesy to use (i.e. Rei etc.), "when in doubt, bow"::triangle: :circle: :square: . If you have a teacher who demands special treatment or exclusive courtesies you may regard these as 'red flags of the ego':hypno: . Pay close attention!!!
If we are to locate our real selves through training then we need to offer as much courtesy to ourslves as to others. Most of us need a little help in the self esteem department and being treated with basic courtesy is a most beautiful way to achieve good spirit. Some other great Aikidoka once said, " Love your neighbor as yourself." I just can't seem to remember who said it.

MM
03-27-2007, 09:50 AM
Ah, 'tis so good to be in the company of people concerned with courtesy. In case any one else has noticed too, we're in a society(American) that is tragically short on politeness and courtesy.


Well, if you'd just post where you live, I'll make sure to stay away from that area. ;) (Just to be clear, this sentence is meant in jest.)

I find that where I am now (WV), there's a good bit of politeness and courtesy. So, no, I guess i haven't noticed. Let me give you some examples.

If there's construction or an accident where one lane of two is closed, we all get into that one lane about 1-2 miles before it closes. The only people you see rushing up to the closure point and trying to horn in are out-of-state people.

People here will come to a dead stop on a road, no matter who's behind them, and let someone on a side road out.

We wave at strangers. Strangers will say hello to you.

If someone bumps into your cart at WalMart, they'll say excuse me.

When a traffic light goes green, no one blows their horn (If they do, they're from out of state). That light will turn red again and still no one will blow their horn. Instead, people will get out and check on the person in the lead vehicle to make sure they are okay.

You'll see people hold the door open for other people (and not just for women).

Course, we get called all sorts of names like redneck, hillbilly, and backwoods hick. But, really, they're just words and I wouldn't trade the civility, courtesy, and politeness here just to move to a place where I'd get called progressive, intelligent, or liberal and yet find a great lack of civility, courtesy, and politeness.

But that's me.

Mark

Chuck Clark
03-27-2007, 10:06 AM
Mark, all of those "out of state" drivers you write about... they're going through basic training and then advanced levels of subtle irriatation here in the Valley of the Sun before going out into the world to spread their skills. (tongue slightly in my cheek)

(Shochugeiko this year will be right down your alley if you can make it.)

tarik
03-27-2007, 10:33 AM
(If they do, they're from out of state).

Wow, Mark, my part of the country is SO similar.

All the rude people I encounter aren't locals!

:freaky:

MM
03-27-2007, 10:42 AM
Mark, all of those "out of state" drivers you write about... they're going through basic training and then advanced levels of subtle irriatation here in the Valley of the Sun before going out into the world to spread their skills. (tongue slightly in my cheek)

(Shochugeiko this year will be right down your alley if you can make it.)

LOL.

I'd love to make Shochugeiko, sensei. But won't be able to this year. As a sort of consolation prize for myself, I am looking at making at least one of these three: OKC, Portland, Indiana. I'm really pushing for Portland. :) Some good people out there that I haven't seen in far too long.

Mark

Don_Modesto
03-27-2007, 02:47 PM
Hi Don,

In reply to your question....Ethan,

Thanks for your careful reply. I only noticed it just now, or I would have responded earlier. It answers my question very well indeed.

jennifer paige smith
03-28-2007, 08:57 AM
Well, if you'd just post where you live, I'll make sure to stay away from that area. ;) (Just to be clear, this sentence is meant in jest.)

I find that where I am now (WV), there's a good bit of politeness and courtesy. So, no, I guess i haven't noticed. Let me give you some examples.

If there's construction or an accident where one lane of two is closed, we all get into that one lane about 1-2 miles before it closes. The only people you see rushing up to the closure point and trying to horn in are out-of-state people.

People here will come to a dead stop on a road, no matter who's behind them, and let someone on a side road out.

We wave at strangers. Strangers will say hello to you.

If someone bumps into your cart at WalMart, they'll say excuse me.

When a traffic light goes green, no one blows their horn (If they do, they're from out of state). That light will turn red again and still no one will blow their horn. Instead, people will get out and check on the person in the lead vehicle to make sure they are okay.

You'll see people hold the door open for other people (and not just for women).

Course, we get called all sorts of names like redneck, hillbilly, and backwoods hick. But, really, they're just words and I wouldn't trade the civility, courtesy, and politeness here just to move to a place where I'd get called progressive, intelligent, or liberal and yet find a great lack of civility, courtesy, and politeness.

But that's me.

Mark

Dear Mark, No one calls me progressive, liberal and intelligent and gets away with it.:D

I'm with Tarik, the rude people around here aren't the locals; and the locals, like myself, are considered hillbillies, rednecks, dumb, slow, etc. :drool:
Don't let national stereotypes sway you either. The locals are just as happy and civil on the left coast as they are anywhere. Now, get outta my way, I got granola to purchase. :)
[B]
Please check out the thread for 'breathing life into the curriculum'. It is a video expose' of the program I'm running in the schools here.

tarik
03-28-2007, 04:25 PM
LOL.
I'd love to make Shochugeiko, sensei. But won't be able to this year.

Mark, I wonder if we've met at a prior Shochugeiko?

Hmm? :)

MM
03-28-2007, 06:44 PM
Mark, I wonder if we've met at a prior Shochugeiko?

Hmm? :)

My memory is horrible. We could have met at some point in time or a seminar, but it would have been years ago. We'll have to get together at a future seminar and talk about it. :)

Mark

Ethan Weisgard
04-27-2007, 04:45 AM
Ethan,

Thanks for your careful reply. I only noticed it just now, or I would have responded earlier. It answers my question very well indeed.

Hi Don,

You are most welcome. I'm glad I could be of help.
I've just come back from Japan, so my re-reply is late, too!

In Aiki,

Ethan

Mike James
04-27-2007, 09:23 AM
I have heard it explained variously as "let's begin" or "I am in your hands". I have also heard it could be inferred as "if you would be so kind".

matsusakasteve
04-27-2007, 10:33 AM
I say "onegai shimasu" when I meet people, order food, do my banking, buy a beer or a train pass. A versatile expression eh?

Walter Martindale
05-23-2007, 01:17 AM
As the train left Tokyo Station, and all the other stations on the route:
Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimasu.
Thank you for using the Shinkansen.

Shortly before the train stopped at each station:
Shinkansen go-riyou itadakimashite, arigatou gozaimashita.
Thank you for using (=having used) the Shinkansen.

Best wishes,

Naruhodoo.....
:)
Walter

Paul Crist
05-27-2007, 10:13 PM
... I remember having a really hard time trying to remember how to pronounce it as I stood up in front of everyone and bowed to him . ....

Aside: If anyone's interested I think I was told to remember "On a guy she must" and drop the final "T". Okay..not politically correct, but I did remember it! Also, for "doitashimashita" or "you're welcome" I was told to remember "Don't touch my mustache". ...
-

In our dojo, we teach our beginning kids to say "oh my gosh a mouse" before further confusing them with the correct pronunciation. Seeing the more adult version above made me smile. I haven't heard "doitashimashita" at our dojo, so while "Don't touch my mustache" also made me smile, it didn't have the personal effect.

Hanna B
05-30-2007, 03:08 PM
In standard aikikai practice, people often say onigaishimasu to each other when requesting a partner to train with (please help/teach/instruct me, right?))
You going Aikikai? Just translate it to "May I have this dance?" :D

edit:
Darn, this thread is old! well...

Ron Tisdale
05-30-2007, 03:13 PM
You going Aikikai? Just translate it to "May I have this dance?" :D

edit:
Darn, this thread is old! well...

Hey! I'm just another Budo Bum...and not even a very good one! ;)

B,
R (miss ya round here...)

ramenboy
05-30-2007, 03:55 PM
hey ron

this is an oooold thread. i'm sure you've had your fill of answers in the last 3 years!!!!1 hahaha

anyways, here's another one. real simple. 'negai' = favor. shimasu = to do. '0' is an honorific term.

basically, you're just saying 'please do me a favor.' one of the many japanese ways of saying 'please'

Sonja2012
05-31-2007, 12:37 AM
I am familiar with saying onegaishimasu whenever I start to train with a new partner, too. It is not standard procedure in the organisation I train with, but I picked it up at seminars of other organisations and like it very much.
I have heard people reply simply "masu" in return. Is that correct or did I just not hear the rest? :)

David Orange
06-14-2007, 03:12 PM
I say it to whomever I'm training with as we begin; finishing, I say "Arigato Gozaimashita".[/quote}

Don,

That's the actual correct form.

[QUOTE=Don J. Modesto;77199]I've noticed a trend for saying "Onegai Shimasu" both before and after training. I have a couple of students from an Iwama dojo who do that and also say it to me after I've offered a suggestion on their technique. (I'd be interested in comments from people who do this.) I always say thank you in that situation myself.

In Japan, it's used whenever a request is being made and then having been made and granted, used again, i.e., they don't say thank you at that point as we do in English, they repeat "Onegai Shimasu" (in the logic of Jpn protocol, thanking someone at this point is presumptuous somehow).

That, I think, is a misunderstanding.

It's not generally considered presumptuous to thank someone after they've granted your request, but Japanese speakers may sometimes say "onegaishimasu" again, especially if the one who helped them threw in a comment or two that would enhance the thing they did for them. In that case, it comes closer to the meaning of "yoroshiku onegaishimasu," which is sort of like saying, "Please keep looking out for me," or "Please keep doing this sort of good thing for me."

Non-native speakers can easily miss the thanks among the flurry of words that might surround any exchange between Japanese. But they might note hearing "onegaishimasu" again and get the idea that you say it both before and after you get what you want.

A little further on that, "Onegaishimasu," literally means "I am making a humble request," or "I am asking for your help."

In casual settings, it can be shortened to "onegai," usually after a request has been made a couple of times already. In that case, it translates more or less to "I'm asking you!" and is rather insistent. It's not likely to be heard in the dojo.

But I think it's important for aikidoka to understand the everyday meaning of words to appreciate the deeper meanings of "martial" words. Thinking the two can be separated loses a lot of depth in meaning and leads to people approaching aikido as a kind of cult.

Best wishes.

David

David Orange
06-14-2007, 03:24 PM
Japanese kids in candy or toy shops scream " onegai, onegai, onegai" when they want mom or dad to buy something. So I guess it can be translated as "do it for me or you'll never hear the end of it."


My wife says it about the third time she repeats a request. Would you do that?

Would you do that thing I asked?

ONEGAI!!!

Then, yes, it's do it or you'll never hear the end of it! :D

David

Charles Hill
06-15-2007, 03:02 AM
ONEGAI!!!


I was rear ended sitting at a red light a few weeks ago on my way to work in the morning. We both pulled into a 7/11 and this young guy with dyed hair and a rumpled suit gets out, stumbling and mumbling, clearly drunk. I called the cops and in the TWENTY minutes it took them to arrive, the guy must have said "onegai," literally 100 times. He wanted me to call the cops back up and say that no, I made a mistake and there was no need to come. He kneeled on the pavement and put his forehead into the gravel at least 20 times. He finally started crying.

Two cops pulled up on bicycles and took a report and gave him a breathalyzer. He was just under the limit. He also explained that he had worked all night and was just driving home ie, he was tired and that was the cause for rear ending me. The cops gave him a ticket and let him go. He GOT INTO HIS CAR and DROVE AWAY!

ONEGAI! Get me outta this country!

Sorry,
Charles

PeterR
06-15-2007, 03:09 AM
You know of course what being over the limit can cost you now. I'ld be on the gravel too?

300,000 Yen for each adult in the car.

Josh Reyer
06-15-2007, 06:30 AM
That's in addition to whatever sanctions his employer might have given him. At Toyota Motor Corporation, for example, a DWI is an immediate firing offense. You probably held his life/livelihood in your hands that night. Yeah, I'd be on the gravel, too.

Of course, he shouldn't be drinking and driving. OTOH, a young company man? Well, it may not have been easy to just say no...

Rupert Atkinson
06-15-2007, 06:32 AM
Onegaeshimas is not unique to the dojo. Japanese people use it all the time when making requests. Usually, one person - the requester - says it. But in the dojo, typically, both say it. However, when I did Judo juniors would run up to seniors and shout it out. The first one to reach the senior was the one who got to train with them - usually, but not always, as sometimes, the senior would ignore them and choose someone else nearby. In this particular Judo class - in Japan - the seniors never said anything. In an Aikido context it might appear rude, but as I already mentioned above, it is actually the norm in society outside the dojo that only one person says it - the requester. I also saw other Judo dojos that operated as Aikido ones in this respect.

Dirk Hanss
06-15-2007, 07:21 AM
In an Aikido context it might appear rude, but as I already mentioned above, it is actually the norm in society outside the dojo that only one person says it - the requester.
Hi Rupert,
it might be a difference in the view, who is the requestor. If you are working in a strong hierarchy, where the senior only eaches the junior and the junior only learns from the senior, probably only one has to ask for a favour.
I was told that the student asks for lectures and the (aikido) teacher asks for the students to learn from him. During practice, both should be learning from each other. That is probably the reason, why in aikido both ask for the favour train with the other. There are two requestors and consequently two "onegaishimasu".

regards Dirk

Ethan Weisgard
06-17-2007, 01:05 AM
Further on the use of onegaishimasu: in the Ibaraki Shibu Dojo (Iwama Dojo), when a technique is demonstrated by the sensei, and after the sensei bows to his uke (saying "arigato gozaimashita"), the sensei then bows to the class and says "onegaishimasu" to the students. They say "onegaishimasu" in return. In many cases - in dojos - the sensei usually says "Hai, dozo" to the students after having shown the technique. In the Shibu Dojo the reigi saho shows, in my opinion, the wish of the sensei for the students to kindly receive the teaching that he has presented, and the students say "onegaishimasu" in the way of wishing to receive. I have especially seen Inagaki Sensei and Nemoto Sensei using this reigi saho.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

nekobaka
06-19-2007, 01:56 AM
It's a fine line, but mashita kind of implies thank you for what you've done, whereas masu is thank you for what you will do or what you are doing. in reality, I would say regardless of the situation, people use masu, and they usually use mashita as a kind of saying goodbye. :hypno:

Ethan Weisgard
06-19-2007, 02:16 AM
When we finish training with our partner, we thank each other for the training that we have done together by saying arigatogozaimashita. We change partners for each technique, so therefor we are finishing something, ergo the past tense form.

But the jury is definitely still out (and I think always will be!) regarding the use of -gozaimasu or-gozaimashita. I notice this more and more when I am in Japan, that some people thank others using one or the other form. I have even heard two people thanking a third party, with one using the past tense and the other the present. I heard store clerks consistantly using arigatogozaimasu when customers were leaving the establishment, whereas most of the time you hear the past tense form used when people are leaving the shop. Interesting!

In Aiki,

Ethan

Rupert Atkinson
07-08-2007, 04:20 PM
Ethan's comment is right on the mark. And mashita / masu (past / present) endings - often it doesn't really matter in the moment, unless you are being specific.

Think English: would we really get into a discussion about say, 'See you', and 'See you later'. ??? You could imagine students English arguing about it: 'See you' is present, 'See you later' is future, but off course the reality is that both are fine. Like, who cares? Getting too specific leads away from understanding - kinda like ikkyo, right?

tarik
07-09-2007, 10:28 AM
Ethan's comment is right on the mark. And mashita / masu (past / present) endings - often it doesn't really matter in the moment, unless you are being specific.

Think English: would we really get into a discussion about say, 'See you', and 'See you later'. ??? You could imagine students English arguing about it: 'See you' is present, 'See you later' is future, but off course the reality is that both are fine.

I really don't have a strong opinion on tenses in Japanese or English, except that it is obvious when one is correct or one is using an improper or slang form. Slang is a fine way to communicate at times, but being specific has it's place.


Like, who cares? Getting too specific leads away from understanding - kinda like ikkyo, right?

I think being more specific leads to greater understanding, not less. When is good enough, good enough, and when do we need to be more specific?

Regards,

Tarik

Rupert Atkinson
07-11-2007, 03:48 PM
I think being more specific leads to greater understanding, not less. When is good enough, good enough, and when do we need to be more specific?
Tarik

It can, but often it is overdone, which is why all the students of one school might do ikkyo one way, and all the students of another school might do it another, with both schools thinking their own to be correct and the other to be wrong. In this sense, being specific leads to self-delusion - and it is very, very common.

Being more specific should work, of course, but in martial arts it can be confounded by the human inquisitive element. We want answers, so teachers give them, and students believe them. I prefer to figure things out for myself.

tarik
07-11-2007, 03:58 PM
It can, but often it is overdone, which is why all the students of one school might do ikkyo one way, and all the students of another school might do it another, with both schools thinking their own to be correct and the other to be wrong. In this sense, being specific leads to self-delusion - and it is very, very common.

I can think of at least 5 different ways to 'do ikkyo' without even beginning to rack my brains. All of them demonstrate the same specific principles. I guess it depends upon what you're being specific about, principles or techniques.


Being more specific should work, of course, but in martial arts it can be confounded by the human inquisitive element. We want answers, so teachers give them, and students believe them. I prefer to figure things out for myself.

Comprehension is comprehension whether it is taught or self-discovered. All actual learning consists for varying proportions of both.

My experience is that people learn more quickly when they (and their teachers) are more specific about what it is they need to be learning. As with anything, this can be overdone and become confusing.

Regards,

Tarik

jennifer paige smith
07-12-2007, 10:05 AM
"Comprehension is comprehension whether it is taught or self-discovered. All actual learning consists for varying proportions of both."


Good idea.
One definition of the word 'comprehension' is; the capacity to include.

People do this in many ways ( as in, more than 2, unless you include 'realized' as part of self-discovered). Especially if they are interested in including 'mystery' which is a state rather than an answer.

Not to split hairs. Just to add to the concept.

Mike Haftel
08-24-2007, 12:02 AM
I didn't read through the entire thread.

But, "onegaishimasu" has many, many meanings which vary depending on the context.

It basically means "please." But, depending on the situation, it can be interpreted as, "Please do this for me," or "Please teach me."

Josh Reyer
08-24-2007, 01:47 AM
I didn't read through the entire thread.


If you had, you could have saved yourself some typing. :D

Peter Goldsbury
08-24-2007, 06:44 AM
Well, I did read through the thread (again) and thought (again) about how the term is used by the Japanese I regularly encounter.

There is a lady who works at the check-out in the university Co-op here in Hiroshima and she uses onegai-shimasu several times during the payment transaction. Even after you have paid, picked up the bag with what you have bought, and made to leave the check-out, there is still a final 'onegai-shimasu', to send you on your way. I do not think the phrase has any specifiable meaning here. It is similar to suminasen, used in almost the same way by the lady who runs my local sake shop. Here there are three or four sumimasens uttered each time I make a transaction, usually interspersed with one or two doomo's (but never doomo-doomo).

The weather is very hot and humid here, with daily temperatures in the mid-thirties. However, encounters with neighbors invariably start with stating the obvious: atsui desu-neee (with the length and pitch of the neeee adjusted according to the temperature) and I have sometimes wondered what answer they are expecting, if any. Inevitably, I vigorously agree and go on my way.

So in the local dojo, there are many more of these 'phatic' occasions, where you utter phrases like onegai-shimasu, simply as a means of social lubrication: somewhat like drinking green tea.

jennifer paige smith
08-24-2007, 08:55 AM
Well, I did read through the thread (again) and thought (again) about how the term is used by the Japanese I regularly encounter.

There is a lady who works at the check-out in the university Co-op here in Hiroshima and she uses onegai-shimasu several times during the payment transaction. Even after you have paid, picked up the bag with what you have bought, and made to leave the check-out, there is still a final 'onegai-shimasu', to send you on your way. I do not think the phrase has any specifiable meaning here. It is similar to suminasen, used in almost the same way by the lady who runs my local sake shop. Here there are three or four sumimasens uttered each time I make a transaction, usually interspersed with one or two doomo's (but never doomo-doomo).

The weather is very hot and humid here, with daily temperatures in the mid-thirties. However, encounters with neighbors invariably start with stating the obvious: atsui desu-neee (with the length and pitch of the neeee adjusted according to the temperature) and I have sometimes wondered what answer they are expecting, if any. Inevitably, I vigorously agree and go on my way.

So in the local dojo, there are many more of these 'phatic' occasions, where you utter phrases like onegai-shimasu, simply as a means of social lubrication: somewhat like drinking green tea.

A corollary I have discovered is the Hawai'in word Aloha and perhaps even the word Mahalo. They have actual meanings but they are used to convey spirit and to lubricate ( retain fluidity ) all relations. Another term that comes to mind is Shalom. Which is used in the place of the word peace but doesn't actually mean peace.
Even closer to home is the phrase 'dude' which is used in proliferation where I've grown up; Coastal California. It means almost anything depending on how you influx.

I'll take yet another stab at the thought with an observation that these are all symbolic language expressions rather than linear language expressions.

Thoughts, please?

Josh Reyer
08-24-2007, 09:17 AM
I'll take yet another stab at the thought with an observation that these are all symbolic language expressions rather than linear language expressions.

Thoughts, please?

To be honest, I'm not exactly clear on your terminology. All language expressions are inherently symbolic, and I'm not sure what you mean by "linear". Perhaps you are saying in this case that such words don't have one universal meaning in all contexts, but rather have multiple shades of meaning heavily influenced by context?

If so, I'd certainly agree. My main feeling vis a vis "onegai-shimasu" and aikido is one of stressing the everyday naturalness of the phrase, so it doesn't overly imbued with solemn and reverent meaning.

jennifer paige smith
08-25-2007, 08:11 AM
To be honest, I'm not exactly clear on your terminology. All language expressions are inherently symbolic, and I'm not sure what you mean by "linear". Perhaps you are saying in this case that such words don't have one universal meaning in all contexts, but rather have multiple shades of meaning heavily influenced by context?

If so, I'd certainly agree. My main feeling vis a vis "onegai-shimasu" and aikido is one of stressing the everyday naturalness of the phrase, so it doesn't overly imbued with solemn and reverent meaning.

Yeah.

I'm trying to express an observation that I have had throughout my life regarding different types of language use. So I guess it is an attempt to to describe 'spirit' in language. I believe it goes beyond context; yet includes context.

I'll think about it some more and try to find another way to say this.

However, I think that you got the gist; and at least I could communicate that.
You know, I speak a different language;)
thanks for the note.

(oh, that's kinda it. Music can speak in the same way. It can be extremely interpretive or only what is written note for note. It depends on the approach...hmmm, probably not getting closer here.)

I'll keep working on it.
jen

Mark Uttech
08-26-2007, 07:45 AM
In my own observations: 'onegaishimasu' I translate as: "please, to share", and I use it outside of aikido class to begin all of my written correspondence, whether an email, or notes written in longhand. Yes, very symbolic, we use language to create self portraits of how we see the world and ourselves in the world.

In gassho,

Mark

Erik Calderon
09-05-2007, 01:41 AM
I love the word, "Onegashimasu." It is a humbling phrase that places the one it is said to above the one that says it.

Erik Calderon
http://www.shinkikan.com

The Jawz
09-05-2007, 02:26 AM
My student handbook defines 'Onegaishimasu' as "Thank you for what we are about to do".

Dunno if that's accurate though.

Mark Uttech
09-05-2007, 03:46 AM
I love the word, "Onegashimasu." It is a humbling phrase that places the one it is said to above the one that says it.

Erik Calderon
http://www.shinkikan.com

Thanks for that wonderful description Erik!

In gassho,

Mark

Falc
07-06-2011, 10:13 PM
FWIW, Taka and Reynosa Senseis explained it as

"Thank you for what you are about to show me," and
"Thank you for what you have shown me" (respectively.)

Yes, you're asking a favor, asking the other person to potentially have his/her body abused for the sake of your learning.

Perhaps as important is the simple spirit beneath it all, a spirit that you'll learn through practice in the dojo, if it's there to be gained. That is appreciation for both the senior and equal/junior members of the dojo, for that they're making the opportunity to learn and grow available to you.

Arigato Gozaimashita,

JT

lbb
07-11-2011, 10:40 AM
FWIW, Taka and Reynosa Senseis explained it as

"Thank you for what you are about to show me," and
"Thank you for what you have shown me" (respectively.)


Is that also what it means when the waitress says it as she hands your order to the sushi chef?

"Thank you for what you are about to show me!"

"....uh, ok...'scuse me while I whip this out..."

Janet Rosen
07-11-2011, 12:06 PM
Is that also what it means when the waitress says it as she hands your order to the sushi chef?

"Thank you for what you are about to show me!"

"....uh, ok...'scuse me while I whip this out..."

LOL - but yes, that is also the context in which I most often hear it outside the dojo. So I figure it is basically "Excuse me" or here in California, "Yo, dude!" or "Yo, dawg!"

Keith Larman
07-11-2011, 12:33 PM
Is that also what it means when the waitress says it as she hands your order to the sushi chef?

"Thank you for what you are about to show me!"

"....uh, ok...'scuse me while I whip this out..."

Egads, not while holding the knife I hope.