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PeterR
07-08-2004, 08:55 PM
So how many out there have entered a Judo dojo after several years training as an Aikidoist - any interesting experiences.

I'll start. In the Judo dojo I attend there are a few kids that are hungry. Very good, very serious about their Judo. One girl has been trying for two years to throw me. Of course I can physically dominate her although she is very strong and of course if she gets close I go down but last week she got me. Perfect timing, balance broken, nothing given, I was down. I've never seen her smile in Judo before (outside yes) but at that moment she had a huge grin. So here I am, on one side very proud of her, on the other side my masculinity destroyed by a 14 year old girl. Oh woe.

Ok so this week - dark thoughts of revenge coursing through my emasculated mind - I show up but she is absent. In her place is a new guy built like a brick shit house. The randori was tough, lots of bumping of heads and twisting of collars, I knew something was up. Tachi was going now where but almost by mutual consent we went down into newaza and then things got interesting. I do think, even though he outweighed me, that I dominated but it was close. Afterward he came up to me and said that his pride was lost (shades of me the week before). Turns out that he was a wrestler and had figured I was toast. I tell you now our next match will be interesting.

I must say I really like the people I've met doing Judo. No need for posturing - its very clear who can do what to who. You may fight hard but before and afterward - very relaxed.

Ian Williams
07-08-2004, 10:52 PM
the benefits of full speed, fully resistant randori...... wistful sigh...

Zato Ichi
07-09-2004, 07:47 AM
Well, this is kinda the opposite of a judo sparring aikidoka... more of an aikido sparring judoka, but it was an eye opener for me, anyways:

During randori, I attempted aigamaeate but didn't have the proper kuzushi, so I wasn't able to throw my opponent. I then reacted purely on instinct: I was in excellent position for koshi guruma and just went for it. By the time I realised what I had done, my opponent was on his back, looking at me with a "What the @?!# was that?" expression on his face. That was bad enough, but sensei was watching at the time (just my luck... three bouts going on, and he was looking my way):

"Hori-san... aikido."

"Hai! Gomen nasai!" <-- I think I had turned a very embarressed red by this time

Oops. :blush:

L. Camejo
07-09-2004, 08:20 AM
Hey folks,

I've got a few interesting Judo stories, but will distribute them as the thread goes.:)

Got a similar story to Hori's actually.

Was doing standing randori with a guy who is about my size, but training Judo pretty regularly (I tend to visit whenever the wind blows me in that direction) and for a long time we were at a stalemate. This was probably because every time he tried to enter or attack I'd keep him off by extending tegatana or sinking weight.

After a while he got frustrated and really tried going for ko soto gari I think. I immediately used tegatana as in Aigamae ate, but against the shoulder. Same time pulling downward on the opposite arm and turning my hips. So it looked like a sloppy Ashi Guruma (without the leg trip).

He dropped to the mat, looking up a bit dazzled and smiling. He said - "you do aikido eh?" I said yeah. The next month he joined our club.:)

Got a few others, I'll leave that one for now. I have a nice Judo VS Aikido one for next time.:)

To echo Peter's comments though, whenever I'm in Judo it's all about what you can do - no dan grade posturing, or "you don't have the right to train with me yet" sort of BS. You get on the mat, if you get pinned, take it, curse to yourself to do better next time, smile to your opponent and move on. Sort of like resistance Randori practice .:)

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Yann Golanski
07-09-2004, 08:21 AM
*laughs* Hori-san, I can imagine Nariyama sensei's face when he told you that! Besides, he will spot you doing something wrong. It's one of those sensei thing. They never see the 99 times you do the technique with perfect kuzushi and timing. Just the one time you mess up... </arrogance></joke>

Chris Birke
07-09-2004, 08:58 AM
Jeez, whenever I do judo with judo people, I get worked. I can slow, stall, get lucky, and hang on the ground, but... it's good breakfall practice otherwise. =)

Mark Mueller
07-09-2004, 09:00 AM
My story is on the painful side....I was sparring with a friend (who by the way is 20 years younger and about 25 lbs heavier). As long as I stayed at a distance where he had to extend to grab I was fine and he was frustrated....Then I got a little cocky and moved to his distance to see what I could do....to make a long story short he swept my leg, dislocated my knee, completely tore my ACL, ripped my PCL, and tore my meniscus. One of the most painful injuries I have ever had.

markwalsh
07-09-2004, 09:44 AM
Aikido v Judo seems to be quite dangerous due to the different training methods, particularly in regards to resistance and competition.

I think many Aikidoka would be shocked at how ineffective their Aikido is against even a moderately experienced Judoka, and even a few lessons may inform their practice. Judo people are so quick and on the ground...

I found it can be frustrating competing within the rules of Judo as most Aikido techniques are illegal. Those lovely wrists were so near and dying to be twisted! What I would like to see is an advanced Aikidoka use kokyu nage in Judo.

I've used Judo techniques a few times by accident in Aikido free practice. Usually when I muck up a technique, lose uke’s momentum (so have to attack) and get too close.

Slight aside: I find Judo techniques are better for play fighting with (non Aikido) friends and children, as they can be applied with less risk of injury.

Mark
x

GLWeeks
07-09-2004, 09:45 AM
My story is on the painful side....I was sparring with a friend (who by the way is 20 years younger and about 25 lbs heavier). As long as I stayed at a distance where he had to extend to grab I was fine and he was frustrated....Then I got a little cocky and moved to his distance to see what I could do....to make a long story short he swept my leg, dislocated my knee, completely tore my ACL, ripped my PCL, and tore my meniscus. One of the most painful injuries I have ever had.


Holy crap!!

I have a nephew in Alaska that's about 17 now(I'm 36) and he loves to try and beat up his uncle when he comes to visit.... We both have karate backgrouds, but now he's been studying Judo for about 3 years.... I took up Aikido about 13 months ago... I'm looking forward to his next visit. :D ;)

L. Camejo
07-09-2004, 10:31 AM
Aikido v Judo seems to be quite dangerous due to the different training methods, particularly in regards to resistance and competition.

Well depending on the type of training one does in Aikido, it's not that different, except in the area of Ne Waza. Some believe Aikido and Judo to be principally the same thing with techinques defined by distance/ma ai.

I think many Aikidoka would be shocked at how ineffective their Aikido is against even a moderately experienced Judoka, and even a few lessons may inform their practice.

I think many Judoka are also surprised (unless they cross train in jujutsu etc.) when in standing waza against an Aikidoka who uses Aikido Tekubi and Atemi waza against them. I've also made the "mistake" of doing a variation kime/tekubi osae technique (Yonkyo for the Aikikai folks) on his forearm while in a Judo Ne waza bout. We heard someone scream and start tapping hard, when we looked around it was the Judo BB I had grabbed with the kime to get into a position for a stranglehold. ooops.... :eek:

He was okay though, just shocked that such a thing could have been applied during ne waza. Afterwards we were looking for ways to hide it from judges in the event it could be sneaked into Judo competition somewhere. evileyes

Judo people are so quick and on the ground...

Very very true. I've found though that the application of tegatana while moving one's hips in certain directions is a great way to escape from mounts and block things like kesa gatame without much energy use.

The one thing that always gets me during Judo Ne Waza is the anaerobic workout. I may drag myself off the Aikido mat after Tanto Randori, but I need to get dragged off the Judo mat after Ne Waza - [Voice of Scottie] I just can't do it Keptin, I just don't have the power.:) [/Voice of Scottie]

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Mark Mueller
07-09-2004, 12:17 PM
"I have a nephew in Alaska that's about 17 now(I'm 36) and he loves to try and beat up his uncle "

Guy, I have the same exact situation with a nephew. Big strapping 17 y.o. (I am 47). He is anxious to prove how strong he his.....I have one piece of advice....pain works! Nikkyo, Sankyo and a variety of pressure points give me the advantage! and I never give him an opening!

AsimHanif
07-09-2004, 12:31 PM
I had some very good experiences training with judo and jujutsu people. At times the best I may get is a stand off which is fine. There is a competive judo club down the block from me so every now and then I visit. It is a challenge playing by their rules, especially me being 5'6", 150 (on a good day). Most of the players there are 6' 200lbs or better, so being physical isn't going to do it for me. It's good training, although I'm not into the competitive thing. The value I get is seeing what works on non-compliant aikido people who are trained well in their own discipline. I do fight the urge to grab fingers and joints though:-)

Zato Ichi
07-09-2004, 07:51 PM
*laughs* Hori-san, I can imagine Nariyama sensei's face when he told you that!

Heh. Fortunately, Yann, Nariyama-shihan wasn't teaching this particular class (although, like you, I can see his face in my mind as well). However, it was being taught by his uchideshi, so I pretty much got the same look....

And call me Haruo. Hori-san is what I'm called at the dojo. By the Japanese, at least. Foreigners tend to call me "That Bastard With the Big Wrists". :)

Ian Williams
07-09-2004, 09:17 PM
Those lovely wrists were so near and dying to be twisted!

I hear ya!.....grabbing the gi? luxury!......

Michael Neal
07-09-2004, 09:38 PM
There is one Aikidoka that has given me problems since I started Judo. He can get a rough
Tenchi nage like throw on me on occasion because he is alot stonger than I am. However, I guess it is not really Aikido because it is pure strength he uses. There are two reasons this guy gives me problems 1) Much stonger than me 2) Has been doing Judo for at least 6 months so he is not really just an Aikidoka anymore.

But even him being alot stronger than me I generally am the one throwing and pinning him.

Otherwise I generally throw Aikidoka with impunity and pin and submit them at will. :)

PS: I would love for an Aikidoka to try and grab my wrists during randori, that means you don' have a good grip on me and are likley going for a ride.

kironin
07-10-2004, 12:42 AM
The black belt judoka I have sparred with had trouble doing any kind of throw on me. shrug

now, newaza, is another matter. on the ground it's very easy to get caught up in their game with those who really love doing newaza are really tricky.

Craig

xuzen
07-10-2004, 01:44 AM
Dear all,

It has always facinate me to cross spar with people of other art but I never have the opportunity. Maybe yes, but then these people are also aikidoka as in my dojo there are also TKD players and kalaripayattu students cross trainers.

After reading this thread, it has prompted me to seek out the nearest judo dojo and try to see it for myself, how it feels like to spar with non-aikidoka. So here goes, I am going to a judokan this coming friday. Thank god, one of my co-worker's brother is a judo instructor at this dojo, this i hope will make it easier for me to approach them.

Boon.

Ian Williams
07-10-2004, 01:55 AM
Hi Boon! please report back on your experiences!

PeterR
07-10-2004, 03:34 AM
Yes Boon please do - this is exactly what I am asking for. Some Aikido before exploring a bit of Judo.

I don't think Judo Shodans are that invincible. As Craig pointed out he didn't have too much trouble shutting one down. However, the opposite is also pretty much a given. Most Aikido shodans would have trouble executing Aikido like waza against a Judo Shodan. That really interesting things happen when we try to adapt to non-standard situations. Sometimes we are successful, sometimes not.

L. Camejo
07-10-2004, 12:04 PM
However, the opposite is also pretty much a given. Most Aikido shodans would have trouble executing Aikido like waza against a Judo Shodan. That really interesting things happen when we try to adapt to non-standard situations. Sometimes we are successful, sometimes not.

Very true Peter.

This leads me to my third Judo/Aikido story.:)

A Judo Ikkyu was having fun pinning some TKD folks after a friendly TKD tournament. I was a corner judge and just got fed up of seeing this guy grinning to himself after he obliterated the TKD guys in friendly sparring. He would ruch them, take em down and pin em in a matter of seconds. He saw me shaking my head in the corner and laughing so he asked me to have a go.

I had no gi on so I steppend on the mat in jeans and a polo shirt. Knowing how Judokas tend to go for certain parts of the anatomy/gi to grab and establish control I decided, why fight it? So as we closed ma ai I dangled my right arm temptingly in front of my body. Like a kid to candy he went for it.

I let him grab the arm, stepped in, pivoted 270 degrees, kotegaeshi. The next thing he knew he was turned around and on his back looking at the ceiling, perfect kotegaeshi ukemi and all.:)

I quickly bowed to him and exited the mat before he got any ideas for a re-match.:) I just didn't want to have to go to ne waza in my jeans y'know. :crazy: Of course the TKD sensei and his guys did not feel so badly afterwards as well.:)

So that was my other story.:) most of the others are about me getting my butt kicked in ne waza during normal Judo practice.:)

Regards.
LC:ai::ki:

Michael Neal
07-10-2004, 01:26 PM
I don't think Judo Shodans are that invincible. As Craig pointed out he didn't have too much trouble shutting one down.

I honestly think you guys must be dealing with some subpar Judoka if you are able to shut them down that easy. You might also want to take into consideration that these Judoka may be taking it easy on you as well, we deliberately do not beat down new people who are just starting Judo.

And the only thing that allows me to believe Larry Camejo's story is that he practices Tomiki Aikido where there is randori and Judo techniques are practiced often. He is also a Nidan in that style of Aikido.

I honestly believe the average Aikidoka has almost no chance against the average Judoka. Aikidoka that can beat a Judoka have one or more of the following characteristics 1) They also practice Judo, BJJ, wrestling or Shodokan Aikido. 2) They are very big, strong, or both 3) Have alot more years of martial arts experience than the Judoka.

p00kiethebear
07-10-2004, 02:40 PM
built like a brick shit house

Haha. I gotta remember that one.

L. Camejo
07-10-2004, 03:47 PM
And the only thing that allows me to believe Larry Camejo's story is that he practices Tomiki Aikido where there is randori and Judo techniques are practiced often. He is also a Nidan in that style of Aikido.

Wow Michael you really did your research.:)

In Shodokan Aikido though we don't actually do Judo tecnique but use the same principles of kuzushi, timing etc. to execute Aikido technique.

Also remember that this was in friendly sparring and not serious competition randori in the last case. In the others, my Judo/Jujutsu experience and careful use of body weight helped a lot. I got beat repeatedly in ne waza though whenever I was spent physically and against someone my own size or larger, which is why I always go back to learn more.:) The cardio fitness and ground fighting experience you get from Judo grappling is a great thing. Helps me learn to apply my Aikido principles on the floor as well.:)

I honestly believe the average Aikidoka has almost no chance against the average Judoka. Aikidoka that can beat a Judoka have one or more of the following characteristics 1) They also practice Judo, BJJ, wrestling or Shodokan Aikido. 2) They are very big, strong, or both 3) Have alot more years of martial arts experience than the Judoka.

Generally I agree with you. The best chance most Aikidoka has against a serious Judoka/Jujutsuka on the mat or otherwise has a lot to do with "dealing with the initial assault." Once they get a hold of you it could be over before most of us know it. Hence my insistence (whether implicit or explicit) on playing the game my way or not playing at all when using Aikido against Judo.:)

Just my thoughts. Also it shows the benefits of resistance randori training regardless of which Budo you do. According to Kano - to understand the principles of Shobu Ho, method of fighting - this is why we have randori.

LC:ai::ki:

Chris Li
07-10-2004, 04:39 PM
I honestly think you guys must be dealing with some subpar Judoka if you are able to shut them down that easy. You might also want to take into consideration that these Judoka may be taking it easy on you as well, we deliberately do not beat down new people who are just starting Judo.

And the only thing that allows me to believe Larry Camejo's story is that he practices Tomiki Aikido where there is randori and Judo techniques are practiced often. He is also a Nidan in that style of Aikido.

I honestly believe the average Aikidoka has almost no chance against the average Judoka. Aikidoka that can beat a Judoka have one or more of the following characteristics 1) They also practice Judo, BJJ, wrestling or Shodokan Aikido. 2) They are very big, strong, or both 3) Have alot more years of martial arts experience than the Judoka.


Hmm, I don't fit that profile, I'm a skinny little guy and (when I was practicing Judo) had not had all that much experience in other martial arts and only 3 or 4 years in Aikikai Aikido. FWIW, I didn't have too much trouble holding my own against people of a similar level of experience (theirs in Judo, mine in Aikido) when we were standing up, although my size told against me on the ground. The Judo was certainly not subpar - our instructor had coached both the Japanese and US Olympic teams.

Best,

Chris

kironin
07-10-2004, 07:26 PM
Yes Boon please do - this is exactly what I am asking for. Some Aikido before exploring a bit of Judo.

I don't think Judo Shodans are that invincible. As Craig pointed out he didn't have too much trouble shutting one down. However, the opposite is also pretty much a given. Most Aikido shodans would have trouble executing Aikido like waza against a Judo Shodan. That really interesting things happen when we try to adapt to non-standard situations. Sometimes we are successful, sometimes not.

I don't disgree. You have to be adaptable and have a healthy respect for what your Judo partner can do.

Who is talking about one, or just a shodan ? nidan, sandan...

but as to shutting each other down, yeah I would not have called it an exciting spectator sport. :-)

my understanding of sport judo is the rules have evolved over the years to keep things moving and more exciting for the crowd.

if you have to constantly bounce around hooked on to each other, not hard to understand that someone's timing is going to get a little off and allow a really sweet throw to happen.

playing on the ground with good judoka though is definitely :crazy:
Craig

kironin
07-10-2004, 07:33 PM
I honestly think you guys must be dealing with some subpar Judoka if you are able to shut them down that easy. You might also want to take into consideration that these Judoka may be taking it easy on you as well, we deliberately do not beat down new people who are just starting Judo.
.


They definitely were not taking it easy and they definitely were not subpar.

but believe what you want to believe.

Craig

Michael Neal
07-10-2004, 08:48 PM
Sorry but I really don't believe you guys. There is definately some embellishing going on.

shihonage
07-10-2004, 09:41 PM
I've noticed that every time someone mentions a specific instance of being able to withstand a Judoka on these forums, Michael chimes in with insightful general statements which are usually one of these :

1) Judo is 100% superior to Aikido under all circumstances and all Aikido folks are wusses.
2) If you had a different experience, then you're lying. You're all lying ! I am surrounded by lies ! They're all after me ! They're saying that Judo is not invulnerable ! I'm having a seizure ! Someone call an ambulance !

Michael Neal
07-10-2004, 10:11 PM
No, what I am saying that is that an Aikidoka does not walk into a Judo dojo and start tossing people around or frustrating Judo blackbelts who does not fit into one of the exceptions I mentioned earlier. There is something being left out that could better explain what happened I am sure of it.

Michael chimes in with insightful general statements which are usually one of these

No I mentioned a specific instance of an Aikidoka in this thread, there are other instances as well if you want to hear them.

1) Judo is 100% superior to Aikido under all circumstances and all Aikido folks are wusses.

No, Aikido is a very useful martial art and can work in many circumstances, and there are some pretty tough people taking Aikido. There some people at my old Aikido dojo that I am sure could whup me good. However, these people are much stronger than me and have many years more martial arts experience than me.

Generally Judo vs. Aikido is a Judo win 9.9 times out of 10. I would be willing to wager on it. The training methods are so drastically different.


2) If you had a different experience, then you're lying. You're all lying ! I am surrounded by lies ! They're all after me ! They're saying that Judo is not invulnerable ! I'm having a seizure ! Someone call an ambulance !

it is quite clear who here is losing their composure

Ian Williams
07-10-2004, 10:19 PM
Generally Judo vs. Aikido is a Judo win 9.9 times out of 10.


it's this sort of gross generalisation that gives very little weight to your cause...

Michael Neal
07-10-2004, 10:28 PM
No I think it is pretty accurate given the fact that most Aikidoka do no randori training whatsoever and the ones that do spend little time with it, with the exception of Tomiki Aikido. I don't really see how you could possibly expect any different result.

shihonage
07-10-2004, 10:40 PM
Given how Ian above has effectively nullified your reply, I'm not going to spend time arguing with the bulk of it and instead take another cheap shot at you.


it is quite clear who here is losing their composure

No need to be so hard on yourself, Michael :p

L. Camejo
07-10-2004, 10:43 PM
I'd have to agree with Ian and Aleksey to a point.

If an Aikidoka fights a Judoka's fight then chances are he may get his butt handed to him, but the same goes for the Judoka who ends up fighting in the Aikidoka's realm.

It's like any other art - If the Aikidoka is unable to avoid a kick/punch combination, chances are the kick/punch artist will win, if the aikidoka succeeds at avoiding the strikes and gets off kuzushi and technique, the tables are turned. If a Judoka does not get a solid grasp on you at his (close) range to apply kuzushi and technique, then you have as good a chance as anyone to pre empt the Judoka's technique with your own. Skill and experience determine marginal variables that can affect this basic dynamic.

I'm not sure if Michael is assuming that the engagement takes place at the typical judo grappling distance. To me, if you're at this point you've alread lost your Aiki initiative. This is one reason why many Aikido techs tend not to work at Judo ranges while practicing in a judo dojo, the maai one is using is for Judo, not Aikido.

I simply cannot agree with that Judo winning 9.9 times out of 10 thing though. It comes down to the practitioner, not the practice.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Michael Neal
07-10-2004, 10:52 PM
I'm not going to spend time arguing with the bulk of it and instead take another cheap shot at you.

Sure, why not when that's all you have :p


If an Aikidoka fights a Judoka's fight then chances are he may get his butt handed to him, but the same goes for the Judoka who ends up fighting in the Aikidoka's realm.

And Larry, the art and how it is trained and practiced has a whole lot to do with it. Under what circumstances do you see a Judoka fighting a Aikidoka's fight and the Aikidoka winning? I mean sure if the Aikidoka keeps a distance by running away the Judoka will never get to throw him but I don't see how that is a win for the Aikidoka.

Ahh, I think I get it now. This all has to do with the Aikido philosophy of avoiding conflict. So what you guys did was go into a Judo dojo and ran around the place avoiding being thrown and consider that a victory and frustrating the Judoka's effort. It makes sense now. :)

shihonage
07-10-2004, 11:11 PM
Sure, why not when that's all you have :p

Nah, that's merely all that I can be bothered with.
It's called "not feeding the troll".

troll

An individual who chronically trolls in sense - regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-10-2004, 11:12 PM
Speaking of avoiding conflict, if I may be so bold, I'd like to try to summarize this discussion and help cool it down. The salient points being argued seem to be:

1) Randori improves adaptability
2) Adaptability is important for 'cross-art' encounters
3) Ma-ai is important
4) An important part of such an "encounter" is to manipulate the ma-ai (presumably, shifting the ma-ai to one at which the majority of your technical training works)

Sounds reasonable.

Mr. Neal seems to believe that Judoka will generally have the advantage in adaptability and ma-ai, due to variant training methods. Others, like Mr. Sundeyev, think that aikidoka can be quite adaptable.

On the whole, I'd weigh in with the others. I think a blanket statement about "who will win X percent of the time" is perhaps true, but only in certain contexts. For instance, Michael's identified training style as a crucial factor, especially with regard to amount of randori. He notes that Tomiki aikido, and presumably some other styles, dojo, and practioners, are exceptions to this. Now, if Michael wants to say that people who study free-form technique have an advantage, I think that's sensible. It's more debatable if there's an advantage to having kata or randori practice as the primary form of training.

Michael Neal
07-10-2004, 11:20 PM
An individual who chronically trolls in sense - regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.
[/i]

then keep trolling away Aleksey, no one here has made personal attacks but you.

Mr. Neal seems to believe that Judoka will generally have the advantage in adaptability and ma-ai, due to variant training methods.

Exactly my point. The training methods make all the difference. A Mixed Martial Arts fighter would in the same light come into a Judo dojo and probably defeat everyone there because they train that much harder and with less restrictions.

It's more debatable if there's an advantage to having kata or randori practice as the primary form of training.

I am not sure that is really that debatable. kata is good for learning the moves but not applying them against a resisting opponent. A mixture of Kata and randori is necessary or effective technique at least against a strong and knowledgable oppponent.

L. Camejo
07-10-2004, 11:21 PM
And Larry, the art and how it is trained and practiced has a whole lot to do with it.

I agree that HOW the art is trained is immensely important. This does not mean that because "Insert Art Here" generally trains a particular way, that a particular individual training in that art may not enhance his own personal training outside of the dojo to meet certain objectives. As a result this person becomes an anomaly within the style or art he trains because he has sought to improve his training in other ways that is not typical to his dojo's training regimen. I have met Aikikai folks who do this and their technique as a result is a lot stronger and works better against resistance than an identically ranked person that may train in that same individual's dojo.

Under what circumstances do you see a Judoka fighting a Aikidoka's fight and the Aikidoka winning? I mean sure if the Aikidoka keeps a distance by running away the Judoka will never get to throw him but I don't see how that is a win for the Aikidoka.

To ask this question tells me you don't understand much about the application of Aikido's tactical elements in actual fighting (not saying that I do either, I only know what works for me.)

The instance I outlined above with the Ikkyu is an example of that - the Judoka lost the engagement when he decided to shoot for the arm and dedicate his weight and balance in a particular direction without seeing the set up for the following technique. I knew that if he got a hold on me the fight would go to ne waza. As such the best option was to get him at the point of the initial attack - deception with a bit of go no sen timing and a strong kuzushi did it. If he had pulled back when he saw me move, the dynamic would have changed and my next move would have been to restore maai that was preferential to me - issoku itto. At that distance I am in control, he has to come in to get control of me using Judo.

Had I been in his shoes using Judo, knowing that my opponent did Aikido, I would have released the arm and gone for a knee takedown before the initial kuzushi had taken full effect. But like I indicated before, setup, timing and kuzushi did not give him much of a choice. Another Judoka may have fared differently.

Going back to your "training methods" concept - how many Judoka do you know who train regularly to deal with and counter Atemi and Tekubi waza?

Interesting discussion folks.

LC:ai::ki:

shihonage
07-10-2004, 11:42 PM
then keep trolling away Aleksey, no one here has made personal attacks but you.

Nah, those were merely friendly nudges meant to give you a hint to stop and think, why is it that every time Judo and Aikido are mentioned, your buttons get pushed ?
Secure much ?
You're the one taking everything very personally, Michael.

Also, you do fit the core of the definition.


An individual who chronically trolls in sense - regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.


Surely I have degraded myself to your level as well, but thats the price we pay for engaging trolls. Hey, no one's perfect :cool:

Michael Neal
07-10-2004, 11:43 PM
Larry, I would have to honestly say that one weakness of Judo training is the lack of training against striking techniques. I have pointed out how I feel Aikido has weaknesses but Judo certainly has them as well. However, a striker would only have one or maybe two hits against a good judoka before they are grabbed, and these hits would be against a moving target coming rapidly in on them. There are very few people that can just knock somone out under such a circumstance with 1 or 2 panicking hits, so I still think the striker is still at a disadvantage.

The Judoka that put himself out of balance to grab your arm made a big mistake. Judoka rarely overextend themselves or put themselves off balance to grab somoene. In a situation where someone was keeping a typical Aikido distance I would personally probably just shoot for your legs and if that failed I would already be in the right distance to move on to another technique immediately.

And on kuzushi, there are some 300lb Judoka that have trouble getting kuzushi on me, I am pretty sure I am safe from most attempts from Aikidoka to force me off my balance.

I also would like to again say that you are a Nidan in a style of Aikido that regularly practices randori so you understand how off balancing applies in fluid situations.

Most Aikidoka do not practice this kind of randori on a regular basis and would not be prepared to spar with somoene like a judoka who on avergae spends at least half of each class doing free sparring.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-11-2004, 02:02 AM
I imagine individual sensei, and each organization, has to make choices about what to focus on. There are millions of things to study, and we only have so much time on this planet to learn our respective arts. As Larry's mentioned, there's also the question of what you do in class, and what you leave for students to do on their own time. Not only might different sensei have different objectives - for example, what they think their students should learn first - but I would argue that different arts might well have different best methods. Perhaps judo is best taught with lots of randori, but aikido is best taught with more kata.

Would anyone object to ending this thread with a summary of, "Randori is important, and possibly neglected." ?

batemanb
07-11-2004, 02:53 AM
In Shodokan Aikido though we don't actually do Judo tecnique but use the same principles of kuzushi, timing etc. to execute Aikido technique.

That`s not limited to Shodokan Larry, Kuzushi and timing are fundamental to all Aikido techniques, regardless of style :).


No I think it is pretty accurate given the fact that most Aikidoka do no randori training whatsoever and the ones that do spend little time with it, with the exception of Tomiki Aikido.

Where on earth are the facts to back that up? We may not focus on randori in the same way as Tomiki Aikido, but I`ve been in pleanty of dojo`s that practice randori. In our association, the shodan tests end with a 3 minute 2 onto 1 anything goes (the numbers increase with the Dan level), the person testing has to be standing at the end. You don`t do this straight off the bat for the first time on the night and stay up. Whilst this may not fit the judo or Tomiki templates for randori, it`s still randori, and the same Aikido principles should be applied if the template changed. I`m sure that if it went to ne waza, we`d be toast, that `s pretty accurate given that nearly all Aikido dojo`s do no ne waza practice what so ever ;). However, the aikidoka would be aiming to stay on his feet, and that doesn`t necessarily mean running away to do so. If he stays up and keeps his ma ai, the percentage odds (assuming he has as much experience in Aikido as the judoka has in Judo) give him a better chance than 0.1%.



Rgds

Bryan

bob_stra
07-11-2004, 05:11 AM
My $0.03

This is almost a silly argument. You're going to outperform someone at something they specialize in, by *not* training in it? No - you're not.

Aikidoka vs judoka at judo / wrasslin? Aikidoka loses 99% of the time.

But...

aikidoka vs judoka at something else...?

Look - if a judoka is able to impose his game upon you, 99.9% it's over. (And more often than not, they can. Judo ma-ai is seems much more... "natural"? for scrapping. Judo maai "just happens" in RL. Aikido ma-ai / techniques aren't as 'natural' IMHO )

Here's a little something. It may not be applicable * , but I'll "throw" it (aha ha ha) out there.

I study judo, but I'm terrible, terrible at it. Yet when I feel like it, I have zero trouble taking my opponents to the mat, or countering their throws. It's ugly by judo standards, but I can do this because I've studied wrestling, BJJ, aikido, jujitsu and judo.

IOW - while they play judo, I play bob-jitsu. And, as it turns out, I'm fairly decent at bob-jitsu ;-) Why, you could even say that it was "my thang".

Who knows - maybe other folk grok-ed onto what it took me five arts to figure out? I don't know - most anything is possible.

Can't say I've beaten any black belts though ;-) In fact one soundly kicked my butt a few weeks ago by going at about 15% speed and strength. Real...aikidoish.

(* the reason I said that this might not be applicable is because the main art I study (1) Does "live randori" in similar spirit to judo (2)IMHO "live randori" against non compliant opposition, at clinch range is the biggest piece of this puzzle. You do that and it doesn't matter if you study Mongolian pimp wrassling. You'll still be able to give a good showing for yourself)

mj
07-11-2004, 05:41 AM
Michael Isn't actually trolling imo.

As an ex judoka he just sounds like any other judoka. If he gets his hands on you he will most likely throw you, if you go down to the ground you will be in a world of pain, confusion and exhaustion. :D

Of course we could digress into multi-opponents or weapons or striking waza but that would merely be turning it into an argument.

I will see if I can think of some stories for the thread too :)

shihonage
07-11-2004, 06:10 AM
Michael Isn't actually trolling imo.

As an ex judoka he just sounds like any other judoka.

Not really. There are several other judoka on this board, but Michael is the only one who starts beating his chest every time someone dares mention that they sparred with a Judo practitioner and weren't immediately thrown 99% of the time.

How dare they, they are lying, I'm tough, etc etc. :rolleyes:

L. Camejo
07-11-2004, 07:54 AM
Larry, I would have to honestly say that one weakness of Judo training is the lack of training against striking techniques. I have pointed out how I feel Aikido has weaknesses but Judo certainly has them as well. However, a striker would only have one or maybe two hits against a good judoka before they are grabbed, and these hits would be against a moving target coming rapidly in on them. There are very few people that can just knock somone out under such a circumstance with 1 or 2 panicking hits, so I still think the striker is still at a disadvantage.

I can agree with that.:) All I am saying is not to stereotype a "striker" or an "Aikidoka" or "judoka" into a pre-set pattern, else other things that they practice outside the obvious may come to shock you.

The Judoka that put himself out of balance to grab your arm made a big mistake. Judoka rarely overextend themselves or put themselves off balance to grab somoene. In a situation where someone was keeping a typical Aikido distance I would personally probably just shoot for your legs and if that failed I would already be in the right distance to move on to another technique immediately.

Again, I totally agree. I knew he could shoot for my legs, which is why I made sure my arm was close enough to him so he could not ignore how easy it was to get at. It's called leading. A more experienced Judoka may have seen through the set up for an easy kuzushi and done something else. The shoot would not have helped him much either though imo, but it would have made things a little more difficult, all things considered. Like Paul said - it's what you decide to focus on.

My instructor used to practice a lot of judo to improve his competition Aikido, as a result he also learnt how dangerous certain Aikido practices could be if one is faced with a competent grappler. As a result we sought to minimise these openings in our own training from a long time ago. Maybe all these things are factors that come into play. Like I said - anomalies.:)

Also, one thing about "typical Aikido distance". In Chinese MA training I learnt that I could manipulate my ma ai to different ranges and be able to react effectively once I did a few things to make sure my CNS could detect things early enough and send the signals to my limbs. As a result, I tend not to always operate at Aikido ma ai, but play with it depending on who I am dealing with. I also apply this during Tanto Randori. Remembering my little thing with the Judoka, I don't think I was exactly using typical ma ai - I was pretty close, which helped him to think he could get the arm before I could react.

I also would like to again say that you are a Nidan in a style of Aikido that regularly practices randori so you understand how off balancing applies in fluid situations.

Though at the time of the encounter I was a Shodan, but I see your point.

Most Aikidoka do not practice this kind of randori on a regular basis and would not be prepared to spar with somoene like a judoka who on avergae spends at least half of each class doing free sparring.

And this is the crux of your argument, which makes sense - resistance randori training (not just kakari geiko aka basic randori as practiced by most Aikido systems) lets one develop things that are hard to develop otherwise, usually in the area of reaction, adaption, application of kuzushi etc. These things, when applied against someone like a Judoka may increase the Aikidoka's chances of success against the Judoka. This type of training however, is not in the mainstream. Is that correct?

If it is, let me know.:) I agree with this, but like I said earlier, beware of the anomalies who cannot be categorised, classified and catalogued.:)

Bateman: If you looked at the context of my post, I was replying to something that Michael said specifically about the training practices of Shodokan, my post was merely to qualify, not indicate that other styles didn't use kuzushi.

Also, I believe when Michael says randori he is implicitly referring to resistance randori, which is not what you are referring to in your post. In my experience, most folks from other schools catch sheer hell with Shodokan resistance randori, which is still Aikido. Michael's point is because of the absence of this sort of training in many other styles, it removes and edge that one may have against a Judoka.

As far as Michael's feelings go about the majority of Aikidoka, based on the training methods used, it appears that he has come across more than a few Aikidoka whose technique basically couldn't cut it when put under the pressure of resistance - Judo or otherwise. Sadly, I can't say that I have had dissimilar experiences. But this does not mean that we can generalise - there are many many anomalies out there.:)

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Michael Neal
07-11-2004, 09:12 AM
there are many many anomalies out there

Yes there are a few anomalies out there but that certainly does not prove my generalization wrong

mj
07-11-2004, 11:48 AM
Not wrong, but perhaps ill-considered :)

MitchMZ
07-11-2004, 01:02 PM
I have about a year of Judo experience and about two of BJJ. I had basically tried to skip around in martial arts until I found one I loved. I love Aikido. Now for your comparison of Judo vs. Aikido. I think there are definitely weaknesses in Judo technique and Aikido technique. This weakness is lack of perfection in technique and timing. This is our failure, not the fault of the arts we train in.

But, my dad is a blue belt in Judo and he cannot throw me with anything he learned. Why is that? Simply, because I know everything that is coming. Suprise is a HUGE factor in a successful technique, and I am more centered now than I ever have been. IMO, train in both arts if you want because they both have a lot to offer. In fact, I'm thinking about training in BJJ again along with Aikido.

Michael Neal
07-11-2004, 01:48 PM
But, my dad is a blue belt in Judo and he cannot throw me with anything he learne

I definatley think that is because of your year of Judo and 2 years of BJJ. I am sure that you Aikido helps some here but if you just had Aikido training I am sure your Dad would toss you pretty easily.

Aikido does help some in Judo, you are certainly better off than someone who has no type of grappling experience at all. When I first started Judo I was able to get some Aikido techniques to work on other students at my same experience level in Judo. But there was no way of getting it to work on a Judoka with more than 6 months of experience.

I think you all have to take another thing into consideration about walking into a Judo dojo and training. A Judo dojo is a learning environment, it is not a competition. During randori we try new things and take risks we would not do in Shiai.

When we train with beginners we let them throw us so they can learn. There are different levels of randori, whe I train with black and brown belts I go 100%, when I train with new white belts I go about 40%- 50%, my own level I go about 60-75%. So if you throw someone in Judo class there are plenty of reasons why it might have happened other than Aikido being effective againt Judo.

If you really want to honestly test your Aikido skills go to the Judo dojo and tell them you think you can kick their asses and want a match with one of them, I am betting that this will not happen though:)

mj
07-11-2004, 05:10 PM
That was not so much ill-considered as insulting.

No real judoka would even think of it, and only a person with ego problems would do it
.If you really want to honestly test your Aikido skills go to the Judo dojo and tell them you think you can kick their asses and want a match with one of them, I am betting that this will not happen though

And it also shows a total lack of understanding about Aikido :)

Michael Neal
07-11-2004, 06:06 PM
Of course this won't happen Mark but my point is that if you are going to a Judo school to test your Aikido skills against an unsuspecting Judoka you are kind of being a jerk and also being dishonest about the results of such sparring.

It would be just as wrong for me to go to an Aikido dojo and then when we are practing all of a sudden throw my partner down on the ground and start choking and pinning him with newaza. Do see how it might be a little disrespectful for an Aikidoka to start applying joint locks and such during Judo randori when his partner may just be doing a little light sparring. The judoka is participating in the randori under the impression the sparring is governed by the rules of Judo competition, and he is likely taking it easy on the beginner as well. For an Aikidoka then to pull some Aikido move out of his hat and then declare this Aikido to be an effective technique against Judoka is pretty much a lie.

This why I say if you want to honestly test your skills against a Judoka you must first challenge him to match and fight under a different set of ground rules you agree to. But to go there and pull off sneaky moves that are against the rules and then claim your Aikido works against Judo is really pathetic.

Michael Neal
07-11-2004, 06:15 PM
A few here want to point the finger at me for being insulting but if you are going to post a thread about how you supposedly go to Judo dojos and toss them around you has better expect some response to this from a Judoka.

You also should rethink how this stuff could be very insulting to Judoka in the first place, this might help you understand why some of the posts in this thread got such a strong response from me.

How about I start a thread on a Judo forum and encourage people to go to Aikido dojos and test them out. How about the Judoka just start throwing unsuspecting Aikidoka around, choking them out, doing arm bars etc. Would you then feel that such a thing would be inappropriate? I sure would.

mj
07-11-2004, 06:42 PM
There is nothing insulting to Judo here mate coz it is an Aikido forum. And the first post was extremely complimentary to Judo.

I mean...it's ok, you don't know what Aikido is yet. Do more Judo, do more Aikido...keep training.

MitchMZ
07-11-2004, 07:44 PM
I definatley think that is because of your year of Judo and 2 years of BJJ. I am sure that you Aikido helps some here but if you just had Aikido training I am sure your Dad would toss you pretty easily.

Aikido does help some in Judo, you are certainly better off than someone who has no type of grappling experience at all. When I first started Judo I was able to get some Aikido techniques to work on other students at my same experience level in Judo. But there was no way of getting it to work on a Judoka with more than 6 months of experience.

I think you all have to take another thing into consideration about walking into a Judo dojo and training. A Judo dojo is a learning environment, it is not a competition. During randori we try new things and take risks we would not do in Shiai.

When we train with beginners we let them throw us so they can learn. There are different levels of randori, whe I train with black and brown belts I go 100%, when I train with new white belts I go about 40%- 50%, my own level I go about 60-75%. So if you throw someone in Judo class there are plenty of reasons why it might have happened other than Aikido being effective againt Judo.

If you really want to honestly test your Aikido skills go to the Judo dojo and tell them you think you can kick their asses and want a match with one of them, I am betting that this will not happen though:)

Okay, I'll be the first to admit nothing is Aikido works...the past six months has been a complete waste of time and I shouldnt give any credit to Aikido to helping me unterstand body movement. I should only give credit to BJJ and Judo. :rolleyes:

Michael Neal
07-11-2004, 07:59 PM
I should only give credit to BJJ and Judo

For being able to resist judo throws and techniques, yes your 6 months of Aikido is probably not as helpful as your previous year of Judo and 2 years of BJJ experience.

I never said Aikido was useless or that none of it worked.

PeterR
07-11-2004, 08:35 PM
I was really hoping this thread wouldn't degenerate into Judo versus Aikido. The general feeling I get is that those who do make the journey find that they are not totally obliterated (probably because Judoka tend to be pretty nice) the first time and with a bit of practice they do all right. My experience is that the Aikido training had me more prepared than if I was a total novice to Budo and I had strengths in surprising places. My newaza is far better than tachi for example.

Frankly speaking the opinion of Aikidoists that haven't crossed over is really not germane. Sparring with a Judoka on your own ground is only slightly more interesting. I'm talking about entering the lion's den.

Michael Neal
07-11-2004, 08:47 PM
The general feeling I get is that those who do make the journey find that they are not totally obliterated (probably because Judoka tend to be pretty nice) the first time and with a bit of practice they do all right. My experience is that the Aikido training had me more prepared than if I was a total novice to Budo and I had strengths in surprising places

I think that is a fair statement

Zato Ichi
07-11-2004, 09:05 PM
I was really hoping this thread wouldn't degenerate into Judo versus Aikido.

Hmm. Let's see... this topic was started on 2004.07.09 at 10:48. Things were generally friendly and folks were having a good discussion. Then, on 2004.07.11 at 10:55, this little gem was posted:

Sorry but I really don't believe you guys. There is definately some embellishing going on.

A two day half-life for a message board thread before things start to go sour or off topic is not too bad. Isn't the internet great? :D

Michael Neal
07-11-2004, 10:12 PM
Actually I thought it started to go sour when people started with some of their stories.

Ian Williams
07-11-2004, 10:30 PM
. Do see how it might be a little disrespectful for an Aikidoka to start applying joint locks and such during Judo randori when his partner may just be doing a little light sparring. .

Only if we were practicing Judo.. if we were practicing randori then I'd do what I like, and expect him to do likewise..

I study Jujitsu, but if someone told me to practice against a judoka using only legal judo techniques, I WOULD be thrashed.. no doubt about it .. so much of what we learn is based around atemi and other dangerous things which are illegal in judo.

PeterR
07-11-2004, 10:36 PM
What you didn't like my little story? :(

I like Larry's and there was nothing sneaky about it. Perfectly legal Judo move just outside the norm. I tend to use an adapted shomen-ate and aigamae-ate when the situation calls for it. These variations are what make the stories interesting and gives me a little edge.

Zato Ichi
07-11-2004, 10:46 PM
Actually I thought it started to go sour when people started with some of their stories.

When you said that people had embellished their stories, IMO most took it to mean "You're lying". I'm not in a position to say whether that was your intention or not, but I'm sure you'll agree, calling people liars tends to piss them off. <shrug>

In any case, no offense was intended - just called it like I saw it.

Michael Neal
07-11-2004, 11:17 PM
No I don't think they are lying I just think we are not getting the complete picture, thats all.

batemanb
07-12-2004, 03:48 AM
Bateman: If you looked at the context of my post, I was replying to something that Michael said specifically about the training practices of Shodokan, my post was merely to qualify, not indicate that other styles didn't use kuzushi.

Also, I believe when Michael says randori he is implicitly referring to resistance randori, which is not what you are referring to in your post. In my experience, most folks from other schools catch sheer hell with Shodokan resistance randori, which is still Aikido. Michael's point is because of the absence of this sort of training in many other styles, it removes and edge that one may have against a Judoka.


Hi Larry,

You can call me Bryan ;). I appreciate that the randori in judo is different, what I said was that if you are going to practice Aikido against Judo, you need to use the Aikido principles. If you are going to enter the Judo world and play the judo game, you've given up your ma ai straight away, entering into resistance also means that you have given up the Aiki principle of harmonising with your opponent, therefore, you are no longer doing Aikido.

At this point I agree that you will most likely become the victim.

Rgds

Bryan

paw
07-12-2004, 07:12 AM
I found that my "defense" was very good. Even though I wasn't aware of the setups and exact throws that were being attempted, aikido allowed me to sense that I was going to be led off balance and let me adjust.

Personally, I had a harder time throwing judoka. I never really "found" a throw...I always ended up with some ugly variation of a traditional throw.


re: Michael Neal, et al....

I didn't read all the interactions that carefully, but I hope I'm not too off base if I mention a few thoughts. To the best of my knowledge:

Randori is training for judoka. They don't keep "score". It's just training. Some dojo I visited will even suggest that it you're not getting thrown, you're not learning.

It would be, well, disrespectful, if during aikido practice in the process of having trouble with koshi nage that my instructor came over, worked with me and then eventually allowed herself to be thrown by me...that I ran to the internet and posted I threw a 5th dan in aikido the other day

There's a huge difference between the average judo black belt, and someone who's nationally ranked. I'll randori with an average judo black belt anytime. A person who is nationally ranked however ..... can throw me at will, hard enough that I'm not going to get back up ---- on padded floors. It's like the difference between a bicycle and a car. There's a similar difference between an average judo school and a competitive one.

My experience was with an average judo dojo. There were a handful of men and women who were pretty good (could do well in a state tournament), but no one who was regional or national level caliber. Places like that will let someone like me train there. I'm not going to walk into SJSU without an introduction....and a fairly good competitive resume. Those men and women would kill me.

Regards,

Paul

L. Camejo
07-12-2004, 08:21 AM
Hi folks,

Bryan: You are perfectly correct.:) This is what I have been saying as well.

It's funny how Micheal simply assumes that certain things that apply to effectiveness against Judoka can only be learnt doing judo/jujutsu like randori or some other sort of resistance randori. I have another story with this point in mind (hope this one does not generate another explosion). :freaky:

I attended a Judo technical training workshop with 7th Dan Judoka Steven Jimerfield recently. He instructed some of the finer points of competition Judo etc., including things like leg picks and more efficient variations of doing techs like ippon seoi nage etc.

What was interesting was that a lot of things he showed to make Judo techniques more energy and movement efficient came directly out of Aikido. One of my students joined me on that trip and he was catching hell to get things to work with his Judo partner at first, until I started to explain the Judo stuff in Aikido terms to him, and then he started to really get the stuff being taught. This was practice however, not randori.

Jimerfield had taught some interesting applications of tegatana while on the ground to block any sort of arm control techs like kesa gatame, and used a movement like that used in koshi nage to perform what he called "small man" ippon seoi nage.

At the end of it we had a little scrap session and the Judo folks found out a few things as well-

By always keeping weight low and posture straight, it was nearly impossible to get a leg pick on the Aikido folks there.

By using tegatana and tai sabaki effectively we could shut down most of the tachi waza and one or two of the ne waza. To the shock of some of the attendees.

On the other side the Aikido folk learnt that if you want to survive on the floor, harmonise with the concept of being a greased snake, else it's good night.:)

Also that the closer the hips are to the floor in ne waza pins the better.

This is not so much about randori sparring in Judo, but it may show to a point where the principles and methodologies taught in the different arts may not be as different as some might think and can be applicable in both directions with slight modifications sometimes. In my early Judo days, what had hampered me the most was my mindset from Aikido training that one was supposed to be cooperative - as soon as that left, things changed. evileyes

Like Bryan said - when you enter Judo range and ma ai and start grasping lapel and arm, your Aikido initiative has already left the building. At this point you're in Judo's domain, but it does not mean that there are not things that one can't apply from Aikido in a modified form that will be almost as effective as if the aikidoka had trained in judo to a certain degree. Of course this does not apply to everything in Judo, else we wouldn't have 2 different martial arts.

Just my 2 cents.
Onegaishimasu.
LC:ai::ki:

Michael Neal
07-12-2004, 08:50 AM
What was interesting was that a lot of things he showed to make Judo techniques more energy and movement efficient came directly out of Aikido

No it did not come directly from Aikido it came from Jujutsu from which both Judo and Aikido were derived. Of course there are simularities on movement and off balancing but the randori that Judoka do makes them better at doing kuzushi against resisting opponents.


In my early Judo days, what had hampered me the most was my mindset from Aikido training that one was supposed to be cooperative

This one of those important details that was left out of the previous story that sheds light on what happened, you have previous Judo training.

but it does not mean that there are not things that one can't apply from Aikido in a modified form that will be almost as effective as if the aikidoka had trained in judo to a certain degree

I disagree, "almost as effective" is being too generous.

L. Camejo
07-12-2004, 11:35 AM
No it did not come directly from Aikido it came from Jujutsu from which both Judo and Aikido were derived. Of course there are simularities on movement and off balancing but the randori that Judoka do makes them better at doing kuzushi against resisting opponents.

So by that phrase, as long as mainstream Aikido starts doing a lot more resistance based randori they should kick some serious a$$ in most Judo dojo, right?

This one of those important details that was left out of the previous story that sheds light on what happened, you have previous Judo training.

Lol. Let me clarify - the encounter we were talking about hapened over 2 years ago. At that time, I had about 6 hours of total Judo instruction under my belt. Of that, 5 of those hours were just ne waza and rolling, not much technical stuff.

So if an Aikidoka who has under 10 hrs. of official Judo instruction can be that effective using Aikido against a resisting Judoka who has been training for years, then (1) It don't take much to shut down some experienced judoka in tachi waza after all, if you know Aikido or (2) Save for resistance randori (which may not be as uncommon as one may think) the average effectiveness gap between the 2 arts is not as great as being indicated.

You are missing the first point of effective Aiki my friend - you engage the attack before ma ai has even been set - resistance does not matter, since you are applying kuzushi before your attacker has the chance to react or resist. This is what made my technique effective.

I use Judo/Jujutsu when I get resistance and end up in that range (which means my Aiki has failed), my Judo pal never had the chance cuz I set him up to be where I wanted him from the beginning and he followed quite nicely. The only element of judo knowledge that I used is the Judoka's programming to grab certain parts of the clothing or anatomy, so I used it to my tactical advantage. But this last part has nothing to do with Judo, it has to do with martial strategy.

Wasn't it one of those really smart sword guys who said when blades touch the battle has already been decided?

I disagree, "almost as effective" is being too generous.
I agree with you, in tachi waza Judo cannot compare if one understands how to use Aiki and timing. I think even Kano saw this.;)

Train hard, train conscientiously folks. Both martial arts have great benefits to those who can understand them. My fingers are tired.:)

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

Chris Li
07-12-2004, 12:04 PM
No it did not come directly from Aikido it came from Jujutsu from which both Judo and Aikido were derived.

Derived from different, and unrelated, schools of jujutsu, actually. A minor point - there was Aikido influence on the Judo curriculum through Kenji Tomiki.

Of course there are simularities on movement and off balancing but the randori that Judoka do makes them better at doing kuzushi against resisting opponents.

At least the Judo folks like to think so - but isn't that the disagreement at the heart of the thread anyway?

Best,

Chris

paw
07-12-2004, 12:21 PM
It don't take much to shut down some experienced judoka in tachi waza after all, if you know Aikido or (2) Save for resistance randori (which may not be as uncommon as one may think) the average effectiveness gap between the 2 arts is not as great as being indicated.


Larry,

I hope you don't mind me jumping here, but I think you'll need to express these two points differently to have a meaningful discussion with Michael.

"Shutting down" technique is anathema to judo randori. Anyone can prevent technique by running away...hence penalties in shiai for such behavior.

I think what you want to express is that aikido allowed you to not be thrown while engaged in and participating in judo randori. (Maybe something like, "I was able to use tai sabiki to thwart throws and create opening")

As for your second point I fear that the way it is stated will cause Michael to turn around and reply that:
a) randori is training --- so "wins" mean nothing
b) the level of players you randori'ed with wasn't particularly high

..and then the accusations are really going to start flying.

I think what you want to express is that most judo clubs/dojo are recreational. They aren't hard-core clubs like SJSU, the OTC or Tokai. And a recreational judo club isn't all that dissimilar from an aikido dojo in effectiveness.

I hope I've not put words into your mouth.

Regards,

Paul

Michael Neal
07-12-2004, 12:30 PM
So if an Aikidoka who has under 10 hrs. of official Judo instruction can be that effective using Aikido against a resisting Judoka who has been training for years, then (1) It don't take much to shut down some experienced judoka in tachi waza after all, if you know Aikido or (2) Save for resistance randori (which may not be as uncommon as one may think) the average effectiveness gap between the 2 arts is not as great as being indicated.

I am sure a Nidan Aikidoka can go throw around some low ranking Judoka or maybe some guys that practice a non competitive form of Judo in the back of some Tae Kwon Do Academy. But a Judo competitor who trains most of his time doing full randori will mop the floor with most Aikidoka. An Aikidoka that trains randori regularly will come closer to being a match to the Judoka because they are using similar training methods, however I still would place my money on the Judoka.

agree with you, in tachi waza Judo cannot compare if one understands how to use Aiki and timing. I think even Kano saw this

LOL, really? So why did Kano not give up Judo and start taking Aikido?

At the end of it we had a little scrap session and the Judo folks found out a few things as well-
And what was this supposed to mean? Are you trying to say you and your Aikido students whipped up on the Judoka?

I also did a little research on Steven Jimerfield, the 7th Dan who's school you visited. He is a member of the United States Martial Arts Association . His school does not appear to be part of any Judo governing body sanctioned by the International Judo Federation.

For those who do not know, the United States Martial Arts Association is a break off organization from the United States Judo Association. It is run By Phil Porter who refers to himself as the O' Sensei of Judo, I kid you not. He basically left the office of President of the USJA in scandel for basically running the organization financially into the ground and also by issuing rank in return for political support. His schools are generally thought to be subpar because of the lack of standards being enforced on them. I have no idea whether Mr. Jimerfield is completely legit or not, he may a fine Judoka and so could some other Judoka under the USMA but there is a credibility issue there that can't be ignored.

I also visited Mr. Jimerfield's website and it appears he teaches Judo from a purely "self-defense" perspective for law enforcement and such, there is no mentioned of any competition and given the fact that he is not affiliated with any official Judo organization his students could not legally participate in sanctioned Judo events, so there is really no competion for his students.

To me tthis answers alot of question why you were able to handle these Judoka.

Michael Neal
07-12-2004, 12:48 PM
I think what you want to express is that most judo clubs/dojo are recreational. They aren't hard-core clubs like SJSU, the OTC or Tokai. And a recreational judo club isn't all that dissimilar from an aikido dojo in effectiveness.

I would even take issue with that, my school is not very hard core we are recreational but we do compete in tournaments. Some of our members have even competed nationally and internationally. We are definately not anything near SJSU but I am confident that most Aikidoka would have serious problems sparring with our Judoka.

Maybe he can make that claim with Judo clubs that do not do any competition and who are more "self defense" oriented like Mr. Jimerfield's dojo I mentioned above but thats all I will give him.

Michael Neal
07-12-2004, 01:19 PM
Another suspect sign about this Judo Instructor, he is a member of the United States Martial Arts Hall of Fame, http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/ind2000.php These types of organization usually are created to inflate people's credentials.

Here are some useful links.

Vancouver Judo Club
Mr Steven Jimerfield
P.O. Box 6157 Vancouver, WA 98668
Phone: (360) 571-9665
EMAILl: sjimerfield@uswest.net
Website: http://www.jimerfield.com \

http://www.mararts.org/index.shtml

In the above link to the United States Martial Arts Association, scroll down and click the link labeled "Important news concerning the USMA Insurance Program" One of the reasons Phil Porter was removed from the USJF is that he allegedly lost insurance coverage for the organization, seems like the same thing is happening to this new group.

Clayton Drescher
07-12-2004, 01:40 PM
Funny about that Martial Arts Hall of Fame, my instructor recently tacked up the "certificate"(nice low-quality xerox) he received from them, I would almost guarantee he has never talked with them. I guess they just send out certificates randomly in hopes of donations?

L. Camejo
07-12-2004, 02:41 PM
Paul: Well said, I think you stated more clearly what I wanted to say than I did. You did not put words into my mouth. Thank you for the attempt at clarification.

Michael: I see now that you are not interested in even trying to appreciate another opinion, so I will leave this as is. I will still post on this thread, but only if the movement changes from this topic to something reflecting the initial point of the thread. It is obvious that you hold onto only what you want to believe to "prove" your point.

As I said earlier, I was Shodan during that silly little thing, with not much Judo training, it was a chance encounter, it could have happened in a number of ways, but that time it worked for me. The Jimerfield seminar that I went to was over a year after the Judo thing occurred, his website here (http://www.jimerfield.com/Schedule.htm) shows the time when he visited this country last year. Apparently he visits regularly at this time in the year. Before he came I had no idea who he was, his defensive tactics system is taught to the defence forces in this country - having seen it though I was not very impressed. The invitation to his Judo seminar was given to the national body, the T&T Judo Association, of which I am an executive member as our Aikido Club is a member of this association. From what he said (information I cannot confirm or deny) he has a 7th Dan in Judo and did some competitive stuff at the U.S. national level many years ago. In training with him, he does have some skill in Judo and wherever he learned I don't think he is faking what he knows.

I do not know where you get the idea that my students whipped anyone at that seminar, I indicated that both styles learnt much, yet you choose to see what you wish. I never indicated that I or anyone else could throw around highly skilled judoka who trained for comps. etc. to me every encounter is different. The guy I threw 2 years ago may wipe the floor with me today, as well as he may not.

It's funny, all of my encounters with Judoka thus far have been extremely pleasant ones, including during randori. I was happy to not find the arrogance that I find in some Aikido poisoning their practice. But today I see that there are elements that have this arrogance in Judo as well. But such is the way.:)

Peter: Many many many apologies for any part I may have played in degenerating this thread. I will only post in future if this thread takes on a different light and moves away from this sort of thing. It's hard to see how one little 2 second encounter can cause so much pain for some people.

Gomen Nasai Minasan.
LC:ai::ki:

Michael Neal
07-12-2004, 03:17 PM
I do not know where you get the idea that my students whipped anyone at that seminar

It was the following comment that gave me that idea, maybe you did not mean it that way but that is how it sounded to me.

At the end of it we had a little scrap session and the Judo folks found out a few things as well-


From what he said (information I cannot confirm or deny) he has a 7th Dan in Judo and did some competitive stuff at the U.S. national level many years ago. In training with him, he does have some skill in Judo and wherever he learned I don't think he is faking what he knows.

He may be very skilled who knows, but what I am saying is that he is not part of any Judo organization that is affiliatied with the IJF. What it seems like is being taught is not standard Judo but something he has put together for self defense training, not heavy randori and competition.

I never indicated that I or anyone else could throw around highly skilled judoka who trained for comps

The vast majority of Judo is competition based with people who train for competition. Do you see my point now? This is why I said before there was more to these stories than what they appeared to be. Not that they were lies but there were important facts left out that may explain why things occured the way they did, other than Aikido being very effective against competitive Judoka.

Michael Neal
07-12-2004, 03:49 PM
I hate getting into these arguments because it makes it look like I think Aikido does not work or something. I like Aikido and think it is a worthwhile martial art. My argument has to do with how different arts train.

Muay Thai Boxers completely thrash most Tae Kwon Do and Karate practicioners who spar or fight with them. This is because Muay Thai fighters train alot harder and spar more frequently with full contact. There may be a few exception on occasion but it is rare. This does not mean that Karate and TKD are worthess martial arts, it just means they are not that effective against Muay Thai. I think the same applies for Judo and Aikido.

shihonage
07-12-2004, 04:34 PM
http://www.speakeasy.org/~shihonage/kittyfence2.jpg
http://www.speakeasy.org/~shihonage/kitties_800.jpg

Erik
07-12-2004, 08:25 PM
They aren't hard-core clubs like SJSU, the OTC or Tokai.

Paul, I have to admit that this surprised me. I saw the SJSU go by and thought he must be referring to some other place. It couldn't be. Then I did some research and there it was.

I guess there really are things that you don't know you don't know. :)

PeterR
07-12-2004, 10:19 PM
It's a bit disingenuous to compare your average Aikidoist with top ranked Judo competitors. I'm talking about your average Aikidoist (as in me) going down to the local Judo club and sure enough they learn from me as well. This was what Larry was saying I am sure. The idea that enlightenment/entertainment is all one sided is a bit much.

I've met all kinds at the local Judo club. Besides the regular members I am often fed to imported lions and surprise surprise get fed on occasion also. Last years All-Japan Junior High School Champion originally comes from this local dojo and there are two kids right now that have the makings. They all have to start somewhere.

AriesS
07-13-2004, 02:39 AM
JUDO VS AIKIDO

When I was still very new with Aikido one from our class asked our Sensei regarding an Aikidoka sparring with a Judoka. His replywas simple, WHOSE RULE? Then the student replied, why, is this important? Of course, came the reply. If they dont allow ATEMIS I will not advise that you do it. With Atemis a Judoka will have hard time with an Aikidoka.

Made sense to me!

PeterR
07-13-2004, 03:30 AM
When I was still very new with Aikido one from our class asked our Sensei regarding an Aikidoka sparring with a Judoka. His replywas simple, WHOSE RULE? Then the student replied, why, is this important? Of course, came the reply. If they dont allow ATEMIS I will not advise that you do it. With Atemis a Judoka will have hard time with an Aikidoka.

Someone already mentioned that randori is practice - there is no winner or looser although usually it is clear who dominates. With this in mind randori can, by mutual agreement, diverge from strict shiai rules.

Judo randori is pretty rough and tumble and in my experience because of this Judoka have an easier time shrugging off discomfort than those that don't partake it. I would say the strike must be pretty effective to prevent the Judoka from closing if that is what he wants to do. One thing about randori and sparring in general is that there is fear to overcome - once managed atemi is minor and more importantly strikes are pretty basic to use. Nothing stopping a Judoka from using his own. The same applies to an Aikidoist going after a PK guy - if you resign yourself to taking a hit all sorts of possibilities open up.

It is the rough and tumble nature of Judo practice that is one of the major benefits for Aikidoists.

However, I agree that which rules you play under have a major say in the outcome if an outcome is what you are after.

mj
07-13-2004, 08:03 AM
You better not put too much energy into that atemi if your Judoka can touch it ;)

Maybe you could throw something at him, or just leave him in peace?

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 08:06 AM
It's a bit disingenuous to compare your average Aikidoist with top ranked Judo competitors

No I am not talking about top ranked Judo competitors, I am talking about the average competitor


With Atemis a Judoka will have hard time with an Aikidoka.

LOL, what if the Judoka are allowed to strike too?

AriesS
07-13-2004, 08:16 AM
Michael:

If they are allowed to hit then we have boxing. LOL.

happysod
07-13-2004, 08:24 AM
I have to admire Michael's tenacity on this, but I think what we really need now is a new Aikido Alcoholics thread perhaps entitled "I'm an aikidoist and I train in a really crap manner and thus get pawned by judoists"

See the problem is Michael, you're not going to get anyone on this thread to actually admit that they don't actually train in an "alive" (please forgive me everyone for that phrase) manner - note all the non-violent and most aiki-fruities have left you tough guys to this thread. With this in mind, what you're going to get is

1. In the Red Corner, Judo exponent M. Neal
2. In the other corner, nearly everyone else

Topic for the day - equal training time aikido vs Judo, who wins
1. Red corner = judo
2. Others = bollocks, look [add own experiences here]

So, I'm going to be a sod and ask you if you think that, assuming both dojos (aikido and judo) practiced with all the elements which are increasingly being accepted even by internal TMA's as necessary for self-defense (full contact sparring, conditioning etc. etc.), would there be any real difference between the aikidoist and the judoist other than individual skill (and body type) in their chosen art?

Is there anything in judo or aikido which you believe is truly missing?

OT - Aleksey, I'm annexing your kittens, give them to me now...

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 09:17 AM
So, I'm going to be a sod and ask you if you think that, assuming both dojos (aikido and judo) practiced with all the elements which are increasingly being accepted even by internal TMA's as necessary for self-defense (full contact sparring, conditioning etc. etc.), would there be any real difference between the aikidoist and the judoist other than individual skill (and body type) in their chosen art?

I have already stated several times that I think if Aikidoka did intense randori as frequently as Judoka then they would become much closer in effectiveness. At this point it would be more about the individual than the art I think.

Is there anything in judo or aikido which you believe is truly missing?

Aikido's weakness is a lack of frequent sparring. Also I think they have weaknesses when it comes to grappling, standing and on the ground, when the range is close. The strikes Aikidoka often practice against are pretty unrealistic, nobody really strikes like a shomen or yokomen.

While I believe the frequent randori and competition in Judo is sets it apart from many martial arts, sometimes Judo gets consumed by competition. I think that the randori and cometition are the most important but Judo defense against strikes, striking, kata, and the goshin jujitsu techniques often get ignored completely. Just a little attention to these things would make it better. On the other hand Judo clubs that focus on the self defense techniques at the expense of competition significantly weaken the effectiveness of their technique.

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 09:21 AM
BTW, cute kittens Aleksey

Ron Tisdale
07-13-2004, 10:19 AM
this post was excellent Paul...the people you describe are a completely different animal. I walk up to a world class athelete who trains hard in a martial sport and guess what...MY aikido ain't goin to be worth a damn in terms of defeating him...especially not at his own game. I pretty much thought that was common sense. MN seems to want to take shots any time he can. That's ok. We can take it...

:) Ron

I found that my "defense" was very good. Even though I wasn't aware of the setups and exact throws that were being attempted, aikido allowed me to sense that I was going to be led off balance and let me adjust.

Personally, I had a harder time throwing judoka. I never really "found" a throw...I always ended up with some ugly variation of a traditional throw.


re: Michael Neal, et al....

I didn't read all the interactions that carefully, but I hope I'm not too off base if I mention a few thoughts. To the best of my knowledge:

Randori is training for judoka. They don't keep "score". It's just training. Some dojo I visited will even suggest that it you're not getting thrown, you're not learning.

It would be, well, disrespectful, if during aikido practice in the process of having trouble with koshi nage that my instructor came over, worked with me and then eventually allowed herself to be thrown by me...that I ran to the internet and posted I threw a 5th dan in aikido the other day

There's a huge difference between the average judo black belt, and someone who's nationally ranked. I'll randori with an average judo black belt anytime. A person who is nationally ranked however ..... can throw me at will, hard enough that I'm not going to get back up ---- on padded floors. It's like the difference between a bicycle and a car. There's a similar difference between an average judo school and a competitive one.

My experience was with an average judo dojo. There were a handful of men and women who were pretty good (could do well in a state tournament), but no one who was regional or national level caliber. Places like that will let someone like me train there. I'm not going to walk into SJSU without an introduction....and a fairly good competitive resume. Those men and women would kill me.

Regards,

Paul

fjcsuper
07-13-2004, 10:19 AM
The strikes Aikidoka often practice against are pretty unrealistic, nobody really strikes like a shomen or yokomen.

Please thoroughly consider your statements before posting them, Michael.

Pretty unrealistic? What does picking up a beer bottle and smashing another person in the head look like to you?

Chris Birke
07-13-2004, 10:48 AM
Woo, I just got back back from a trip to Bellview, what a great thread to come back to.

First off, don't be too angry that Micheal thinks people are embellishing their victories... in martial arts contests... on the internet...

That's what I suspected, because what I've seen and expirenced has certainly not been in line with "Aikido does just fine in Judo contexts." I was always under the impression that once I started doing Judo, it was no longer in Aikido's center.

I've seen (and felt) many mixings of arts, with various levels of opponents. I get mixed up when going by my own expirences (which I'll outline later), but in the context of "Judo VS X: Judo Rules Only Challenge Match!" I've personally seen the following.

Judo vs Wrestling (usually on the level, depends on whether it's gi or nogi),
Judo vs Bjj (guess whether or not it goes to the ground),
Judo vs Sambo (very close),
Judo vs Karate (Judo),
Judo vs Muai Thai (Judo),
Judo vs Kali (Judo).

Judo vs good Aikido is a much closer match than Judo vs good Muai Thai, but again, Judo has the great advantage of the competition being, well, Judo. Of course Judo has an advantage and thus is very successful. I'd feel silly arguing otherwise.

Just because Kali loses to Judo in a Judo match doesnt mean Kali is a bad, it just means when you take what parts of kali fit into judo and throw out all the rest you are left with a sliver, and that doesn't stand very well.

In the case of arts like Sambo and BJJ - their success comes from their similiarity to Judo - the contest of Judo vs Partial Judo will consist of a few Partial Judo wins (I think this is a fantastic name for a new Art, by the way).

Outside the realm of equal level practictioners, the question of who trains harder obiviously goes (on AVERAGE) to Judo. It is part of the definition of Judo that they do this. I feel, absolutely, that this harder training creates an advantage.

But, as stated "note all the non-violent and most aiki-fruities have left you tough guys to this thread" most people here train harder than the average Judo guy, so the point is nullified.

In thinking back on my personal expirence, I must say I have a bit of a bias towards defending Judo when asked "how does judo stack" in the same way I defend Aikido. I think of the best Judo guys I've sparred with, people I consider accurate representations of the art, and tell it how they worked me. If they hadn't had much success (as I'm sure countless anonymous Judo players I've sparred with did) I really didn't factor them into my consideration of Judo's effectiveness.

My evaluation, thus, is really predicated on my ignorance of actual judo training - all I see are the best and the brightest who have come to train mma.

I also have trouble isolating what is "Aikido" and thinking of just that when I compare things, because I crosstrain, and there will of course be mixing. I also don't think I'm good enough to be a true representation of Aikido.

Despite my initial doubts, I think I've come to agree with those who defend Aikido so strongly here. I think their isolated examples are pretty much true, and I consider a partial victory against Judo in Judo rules to be a success overall.

//

"So, I'm going to be a sod and ask you if you think that, assuming both dojos (aikido and judo) practiced with all the elements which are increasingly being accepted even by internal TMA's as necessary for self-defense (full contact sparring, conditioning etc. etc.), would there be any real difference between the aikidoist and the judoist other than individual skill (and body type) in their chosen art? "

This being precisely the point, I'd say they should be equal.

But, because this is too resolute, I will ask another question to stoke the fire.

This outlined training condition is usually lacking.

Is it lacking more in Aikido?

//

Kudos to Peter, Paul, Larry, Ian, and Michael for being such a stubborn bastard.

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 11:09 AM
and Michael for being such a stubborn bastard

You can always count on that :)

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 11:54 AM
I want to add something else to this mix, Jun mentioned a poll he did in this following thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6005 where more than 1 in 6 Aikidoka can not take breakfalls. How do you think these people would survive in a matchup against even a beginning whitebelt Judoka?

I bet you alot more can only take breakfalls from controlled throws in a cooperative training session.

One day I want to go back to Aikido but I am hoping by then the training methods will have evolved, right now most Judokas I talk to refer to Aikido as the place Judoka go to die. :)

Ian Upstone
07-13-2004, 12:36 PM
So the conclusion is:

Someone with no or little judo experience - doing judo - with a judoka - is more than likely going to lose against them.

Well, duh.

I'm with Larry - I'd rather this thread headed back to Peter's original post - and focused on anecdotes where folk have cross-trained and have some relevant stories, either amusing or educational. Or even both!

P.S. Michael, you're unlikely to change anyone's mind (especially in an aikido forum!). I'd rather hear about your experiences on an aikido mat coming from a judo background, and any things that helped or hindered your training, rather than the continual aikido bashing. One thing also to bear in mind before giving it the big thumbs down is that the likes of Shioda, Mochizuki, Tomiki and many others came from a judo background - Kano himself sent his best students to the Kobukan to learn aikido - so there must be something to it other than a bunch of people pretending to bend each others arms...

MitchMZ
07-13-2004, 12:39 PM
Someday I plan on teaching my Aikido. I plan on first teaching the art in the traditional sense, then moving on to more practical applications. If you are smart you can see where practical applications develop from the attacks we do. I will teach breakfalls along with having regular randori. I also plan on having an "open randori" in a forest at night for those with much experience. This will include low ranks putting on full body armor and using jo, tanto, bokken, or bare hands and trying their best to take down the higher ranks. I do not believe in competitive Aikido, but I do believe if you can apply it practically in these situations...there is no reason why you wouldnt be able to on the street. You would have to leave out joint locks in open randori, though. Atemi would be vital.

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 12:42 PM
Someone with no or little judo experience - doing judo - with a judoka - is more than likely going to lose against them.

That may be your conculsion but it is not mine. My conclusion is an Aikidoka with little Judo experience is likely to lose to the Judoka whether they play by Judo rules or not.

Kano himself sent his best students to the Kobukan to learn aikido

Kano sent his students everywhere to learn from every jujitsu school he could find, Aikido was one of them. Many of the Goshin jitsu techniques taught at Judo schools are Aikido techniques but Kano also brought in techniques from many differen ju jitsu styles.

Ron Tisdale
07-13-2004, 12:58 PM
I have never found a judoka that rude...well...till now...

Ron :)

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 01:48 PM
I am just being honest to what I believe to be true, not trying to be rude.

shihonage
07-13-2004, 02:39 PM
I want to add something else to this mix, Jun mentioned a poll he did in this following thread http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6005 where more than 1 in 6 Aikidoka can not take breakfalls. How do you think these people would survive in a matchup against even a beginning whitebelt Judoka?

I am sure beginners don't magically start flying in the air the moment they enter a Judo class.
What is the percentage of such beginners amongst overall Judo practitioners ?

Every day I visit Aikiweb I see a couple of new "Hello I'm new and I've been training for 27 minutes so far ! Wish me luck" threads.
So, more to the point, what is the percentage of such beginners on a Judo website ?



I bet you alot more can only take breakfalls from controlled throws in a cooperative training session.

I went to a Judo class, participated in randori where, after a slow play-session with one guy (who let me throw him with seio-nage, which was really nice of him), another guy came in. He was heavier, and according to his chatter with the instructor, he was doing freestyle wrestling before he joined the class.

At first he was moderating himself, but when that didn't work, he got really "enthusiastic" and started putting a lot of his speed/power into it.

During one of his first unsuccessful attempts he fell on the floor as I moved exactly at the same moment as he invested all of his speed/power. It happened in a millisecond. BAM.
An ideal tenkan, or something. I am not sure what I did.

Then he adapted, and I was continuously thrown with the same speed as I've seen them throw each other during randori.
Not pretty, but manageable, and I instinctively out of self-preservation did some quite decent breakfalls, ironically, a lot better than the rehearsed ones I do in Aikido class.

Somewhere in the middle of a series of being thrown by him, and my unsuccessful attempts at a shihonage, I reversed him into a sankyo, and he looked ... puzzled. We stood there for a few seconds and then I let him go because I didn't know if he would follow the correct ukemi or decide to break his own wrist.

I am a 4th kyu, and my skill level is about that of a 4th kyu.
I don't know what kind of Aikido you happened to study, but your opinion of it is clearly, as others said, "only what you want to believe".

"Aikidokas can only do breakfalls in controlled rehearsed environment", yeah, ok.
In other news, white people can't jump and black men can't see in the dark.

P.S.
That Judo instructor himself said that he thinks Aikido is great, its just that he doesnt understand why everyone treats it as some sort of slow dance nowadays.
He said that, in his opinion, Judo training is needed before you can do Aikido properly.
Then he proceeded to throw me with some fast. energetic katate tori ikkyo, kokyonage, and sumi otoshi . Bam, you're down.
I think his intent was to show how Aikido "should" be done, to demonstrate the difference, but he felt very much like my Aikido instructor.

aikido_dragon
07-13-2004, 02:39 PM
LOL.....It seems like this debate goes on everywhere. I think everyone needs to remember the following.

All Martial Arts are just that, an ART. It doesn't matter what style you learn, Aikido, Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Capoeira, Savat what-ever it may be, they're all branches hanging from the same tree, a tree called Martial Science also called Combat Science. When you brake down every Martial Art into its purist and most simplest form you're left with Martial Science. A Science based on practical facts on how to quickly kill another human. So it's not about what art is better then another. They truly are all equal and in the end the same thing.

Aikido is said to be one of the hardest Martial Arts to learn and so it's also thought to be very impractical and inferior. I agree it's hard to learn, but not because it's difficult to apply in a practical sense or inferior, but because it's very hard to learn to apply without seriously hurting if not killing someone while applying the techniques. I'm sure all of you have seen this first hand when you try to play around with your friends who don't train in the Martial Arts. Aikido tends to brake down because most of the techniques can't effectively be done if you have fear of hurting the person your applying them to. If you don't care what happens to the other person then Aikido becomes extremely effective.

Judo is the same exact way, however many of the techniques in Judo can easily be toned down and changed a little to make them much safer for those being attacked. Such as grabbing the clothing instead of the neck or other joints. Were if you did that in Aikido people would then say, "Hey, that's not Aikido."

I could write a book on this subject but I'm sure most of you know already what I'm saying so I'll leave it at that.

To end on a lighter side I've heard it said like this,

If you want to:
- fight...take up Muay Thai/BJJ/Wrestling/Boxing/Judo
- live in Harmony...learn Aikido
- practice kata...learn Karate
- learn to kick really pretty...learn Tae Kwon Do
- kill...Take the Art out your Martial Art.

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 03:36 PM
Where did I say "Aikidokas can only do breakfalls in controlled rehearsed environment" ? I said
"I bet you alot more can only take breakfalls from controlled throws in a cooperative training session" after citing the 1 in 6 example.

I am quite sure you can do breakfalls fine but what I was saying is that less Aikidoka are prepared to take breakfalls than judoka who start from day one practicing them. In my own experience in Aikido many in the class injured themselves or developed a fear of breakfalls because they did not learn them from day one, it was one of those things you were supposed to pick up as you went along. I am prettty sure at least 25% of that Aikido class would not be able to take a good safe breakfall from a hard Judo throw. The results of that poll confirmed my experiences.

Somewhere in the middle of a series of being thrown by him, and my unsuccessful attempts at a shihonage, I reversed him into a sankyo, and he looked ... puzzled. We stood there for a few seconds and then I let him go because I didn't know if he would follow the correct ukemi or decide to break his own wrist.

Would it have been Ok with you if he decided to punch you in the face during randori to see what would happen? You know that sankyo is against the rules right? It would be polite to inform your partner that you wish to randori with no rules if you are going to do things like that. If you get to break the rules to see if your Aikido will work it would only be fair to allow him to break the rules as well.

The only way to fairly test your Aikido skills against a Judoka is to spar with no rules. There are all kinds of things that we learn in Judo class but do not apply in competition because they are illegal, we should be able to use these things against the Aikidoka to make things fair right?

P.S. That Judo instructor himself said that he thinks Aikido is great, its just that he doesnt understand why everyone treats it as some sort of slow dance nowadays.
He said that, in his opinion, Judo training is needed before you can do Aikido properly.

I agree with him in all that he said

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 04:08 PM
I think you guys are mistaking me for the guy who posted the thread "Aikido is weak" http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1067

I like Aikido. Restrain yourselves now, I am not the devil. I just think Judo is more effective becasue of the way it is trained. Sorry if that gets you upset, it is not meant to.

If you really think I am wrong then that is fine. I would actually like to do more friendly sparring with some Aikidoka some time, just for the learning experience. If I hated Aikido I would not come here to Aikiweb at all, I want to see the art grow and become better.

shihonage
07-13-2004, 04:10 PM
Where did I say "Aikidokas can only do breakfalls in controlled rehearsed environment" ? I said
"I bet you alot more can only take breakfalls from controlled throws in a cooperative training session" after citing the 1 in 6 example.


From someone who continually puts words in people's mouths and paints with an amusingly broad brush (99% of the time Judoka will prevail !) during an entire thread, you're pretty picky about exactness of expressions.


I am quite sure you can do breakfalls fine but what I was saying is that less Aikidoka are prepared to take breakfalls than judoka who start from day one practicing them. In my own experience in Aikido many in the class injured themselves or developed a fear of breakfalls because they did not learn them from day one, it was one of those things you were supposed to pick up as you went along. I am prettty sure at least 25% of that Aikido class would not be able to take a good safe breakfall from a hard Judo throw. The results of that poll confirmed my experiences.


Many in class injured themselves and developed a fear ... ?
Once again Michael you appear to be studying in an alternate-reality Aikidoland.

And again,if we were to indulge in that silly game, for someone being picky on exactness, 1/6 = 16.6%, not 25% , which is an estimate that the poll, on which you rely, does not support.


Would it have been Ok with you if he decided to punch you in the face during randori to see what would happen? You know that sankyo is against the rules right?


Frankly the "rules" were a little fuzzy to me at that point.
I just moved in a way I felt I could move, and I took care of not injuring the opponent.

Punching in the face is an entire ballgame completely, for first and foremost, it injures the opponent.

Don't you feel like you want to punch this entire thread in the face, Michael ? Feel your hatred, my son. :grr:

(yep another cheap shot, gotta have some fun)


It would be polite to inform your partner that you wish to randori with no rules if you are going to do things like that. If you get to break the rules to see if your Aikido will work it would only be fair to allow him to break the rules as well.


If I didn't have that awareness, I would've kept sankyo'ing him till the end of time instead of dropping it after the first time.


The only way to fairly test your Aikido skills against a Judoka is to spar with no rules.


So, if there's no real way to test the skills against Judoka (asides from a life-and-death competition between two not-very-bright individuals), then where exactly did you get your marvelous assumptions ?


I agree with him in all that he said

I don't disagree with what he said, either.
Judo is an excellent art, and if I find a dojo with warmups which are less silly than the ones I witnessed (crawling on my butt is not exactly up my alley), I might join.

I do find your hilarious "Judo guys are all made out of steel, and I, Michael Neal, personally, am made of titanium superalloy. Resistance is futile and if at any point you were able to stop us, its only because we pity you mortals and go easy on you !
Mwa ha ha ha. Good day." attitude to be entertaining though.

Keep up the good work.

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 04:30 PM
Many in class injured themselves and developed a fear ... ?
Once again Michael you appear to be studying in an alternate-reality Aikidoland.

No not really

And again,if we were to indulge in that silly game, for someone being picky on exactness, 1/6 = 16.6%, not 25% , which is an estimate that the poll, on which you rely, does not support.

LOL, no the poll suggested more than 1 in 6 could not do breakfalls, I expanded on that and said even more could do breakfalls somewhat but only under a controlled setting. This is from my own experiences.

Don't you feel like you want to punch this entire thread in the face, Michael ? Feel your hatred, my son. No not angry, actually I am having a lot of fun :)

If I didn't have that awareness, I would've kept sankyo'ing him till the end of time instead of dropping it after the first time. Yea Ok

So, if there's no real way to test the skills against Judoka (asides from a life-and-death competition between two not-very-bright individuals), then where exactly did you get your marvelous assumptions ?

From every point made so far in this thread and in my own experiences doing randori with Aikidoka. I did not mean there was no way to test the skills without a death match but it would be much more honest to not pull illegal moves while the other guy is fighting under guidelines and then claim that Aikido works against Judo.

shihonage
07-13-2004, 04:47 PM
it would be much more honest to not pull illegal moves while the other guy is fighting under guidelines and then claim that Aikido works against Judo.

I did not go in that direction, I simply described all that happened during that encounter.
The main point of my reply was that your breakfall statement was inaccurate as always.

In general, when you come to forum about "X", and then you start critiquing "X" in a manner which appears confrontational or ignorant, even if your critique happens to have validity in it, you're going to be sucked into a huge nerve-wasting flamewar.
That's just something that always happens, no matter what "X" is.

Chris Birke
07-13-2004, 05:04 PM
One thing that I love about cross training with Judo guys (and other arts) is seeing that the way I was taught is sometimes stupid. Often, I'll be shown a technique one way, and criticized by people in my school for doing it any different. I think, "ah, they are right, this is the best way; it's so logical," until someone from a different school shows us in practice that we all were being idiots. It goes both ways of course, but this is the best way to grow strong.

It is also fun to note that much of what is "law" is actually more of "the latest trend" - and all part of an evolution at that.

p00kiethebear
07-13-2004, 05:23 PM
In general, when you come to forum about "X", and then you start critiquing "X" in a manner which appears confrontational or ignorant, even if your critique happens to have validity in it, you're going to be sucked into a huge nerve-wasting flamewar.

Yeah, I'm always hesitant about posting on aikiweb out of fear that Aleksey is going to come kill me and eat my family. :hypno:

shihonage
07-13-2004, 05:45 PM
Yeah, I'm always hesitant about posting on aikiweb out of fear that Aleksey is going to come kill me and eat my family. :hypno:

How they say... "you are what you eat".
I think I'll pass :p

Ian Williams
07-13-2004, 07:02 PM
Aikido's weakness is a lack of frequent sparring. .


for heavens sake dude, that's like saying the English Language weakness is a lack of vowels..

Everyone's Aikido is different... some people may do a LOT of intense fully resistant randori, some people may not do much at all..

Your generalisations are crass, awkward and infantile...

Erik
07-13-2004, 09:09 PM
Somewhere in the middle of a series of being thrown by him, and my unsuccessful attempts at a shihonage, I reversed him into a sankyo, and he looked ... puzzled. We stood there for a few seconds and then I let him go because I didn't know if he would follow the correct ukemi or decide to break his own wrist.

My compliments. Taking this sort of approach allows you to play around in a much freer and safer way. Of course, both parties have to have made this sort of agreement.

By the way, I meant that, I popped a TKD guy's wrist as a second kyu because he resisted sankyo and I didn't let it go. He was a sandan and probably would have destroyed me in a fight so I guess he felt like he could take anything I dished out

Both of us were wrong!

L. Camejo
07-13-2004, 09:33 PM
So how many out there have entered a Judo dojo after several years training as an Aikidoist - any interesting experiences.

So getting back to the initial question:-

An interesting thing I now remember when I first walked into a Judo dojo after doing Aikido alone for an extended period was the severe muscle fatigue I experienced after doing about 15 or so bouts of ne waza one after another.

Just as in Aikido training when one gets to the point of exhaustion the mind/body starts cutting off the excess movement to conserve energy etc., same thing happened here except, since my body is programmed mainly with Aikido movements, I found myself doing stuff like what we do in Nanahon no kuzushi on the floor, as "thinking" of what I should do went out the door. Many times it got me in favourable positions to apply something - especially the chudan no kuzushi movements - leading to ude hineri/ude gaeshi type pins and submissions - which are legal in Judo - lucky me :).

Reminds me of Tomiki's diagram that shows the shared elements of Judo and Aikido kansetsu waza. It's interesting though, the things you find out about yourself when your body is spent and your hands and arms are like rubber. One of the reasons I love ne waza.:)

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Michael Neal
07-13-2004, 09:55 PM
The main point of my reply was that your breakfall statement was inaccurate as always.

What exactly was inacurate about it?

In general, when you come to forum about "X", and then you start critiquing "X" in a manner which appears confrontational or ignorant, even if your critique happens to have validity in it, you're going to be sucked into a huge nerve-wasting flamewar.
That's just something that always happens, no matter what "X" is.

The first person on this thread to start elevating this discussion to a personal attacks was you, remember that.

Everyone's Aikido is different... some people may do a LOT of intense fully resistant randori, some people may not do much at all..

Your generalisations are crass, awkward and infantile...

If you had bothered to read anything I have written you would see that over and over again I said people who train "LOT of intense fully resistant randori" would be narrow the gap and make it more about the individual that the art. I have said that from the beginning and repeated it I don't know how many times.

I think it is safe to say that most Aikidoka do not do a "LOT of intense fully resistant randori". So the vast majority of Aiidoka in my view are not prepared to spar with people who do. This has been my freakin argument from the very beginning.

xuzen
07-13-2004, 10:33 PM
Dear posters,

This thread is hot and deliciously tempting to get into... so here goes my $ 0.02 thought:

Judo is great (having not done judo at all)!!! It is a great MA in close combat i.e., ground grappling, choking and basically very close combat distance. I think ju doka cannot be viewed lightly; they are strong, agile and fast. Once they get you on the ground, it is their fight.

Aikido is great (having done a decade of it)!!! It is great MA is middle range combat. Aikido has great leverage in the evasion part. That is why we do tonnes of it. Should an aikidoka wants to go against a Ju doka, IMO:

Stay your distance; do not get close (it will be their advantage). Hiji ate, ushiro kokyu nage, irimi-zuki, shihonage and shiho kuzushi nage are good choices. Remember Osae or pinning techniques are judokas forte, avoid getting in to them when faced with a ju-doka. Use atemi liberally. Use what aikido is good for, evasion and counter from unexpected angle, surprise is the active ingredient. Use hit an run tactics Your syllables include bokken and jo training, use it. Force them to maintain their distance, disallowing a ju-doka to get close. Fight using a mindset of kenjutsu or jo-do player; never fight thinking like a ju-doka, closing in and trying to grapple with a ju-doka, you'll get pummel.

Aikido and Judo share the same heritage, we may be classified as distant cousin. Judo training emphasized certain elements and aikido different elements. Maybe it was impossible to learn everything in a lifetime, so the founding teachers picked what was in their thought the best things and master them. Rather than be a jack of all trades and master of none, Dr Jigaro Kano and Osensei Ueshiba picked the best from the myriad of forms and create their version of an effective MA. Both of them succeeded in their own capacity.

Regards,
Boon

Ian Williams
07-13-2004, 10:54 PM
If you had bothered to read anything I have written you would see that over and over again I said people who train "LOT of intense fully resistant randori" would be narrow the gap and make it more about the individual that the art. I have said that from the beginning and repeated it I don't know how many times.


Why would they "narrow the gap" Michael? Why wouldn't they be as good if not better?

What about a Jujitsudoka who practices fully resistant sparring? Would he/she "narrow the gap" to an average Judoka?

it's meaningless... the whole "an average judoka could kick an average aikidodoka's arse" argument is meaningless.. it deals in broad generalities which are also meaningless (my "freaking" argument from the very start)... :confused:

jacob wood
07-14-2004, 12:10 AM
in my highschool there is a kid who is 3rd in the world at judo in his weight class. It is fun watching him do all his tachniques to all of us even the really huge guys, like passing us out and stuff like that. I haven't started aikido yet but i will next month and after a few months a training i will go get tossed around by him to see what it feel like ( i say tossed because being third in the world at judo will leave me looking like a radoll. i will tell everyone how it goes though in a few months, just thought i's throw that out there

-jacob

Chris Birke
07-14-2004, 01:42 AM
You people who are personally attacking Micheal instead of attacking his opinions need to get beaten down more often. Learn some respect.

shihonage
07-14-2004, 01:59 AM
The first person on this thread to start elevating this discussion to a personal attacks was you, remember that.


Calling you a troll was not a personal attack, but an accurate identification, meant to assist you, given how you clearly did not see what you were doing.
Little good it did, though.

What exactly was inacurate about it?


Everything. Just another broad generalization (tm) from Michael Neal (R) .

happysod
07-14-2004, 03:33 AM
So, in a baking contest between a deliciously moist victoria sponge and hard yet fiendishly crisp ginger snap, who would win?

Sorry, don't know what came over me there...

Some of the more general points raised with regard to judo/aikido have gelled quite nicely with some of the things I've been looking at. So, here's my rambling bollocks for you (only tangentially adding to the thread)

Non-cooperative sparring: no we don't do as much of it in the aikido dojo as in a normal judo dojo. In my opinion, a standard kyu aikido practitioner from my own style (say 2 times a week, 2hours per session) would probably lose against the equivalent judo person in a non-cooperative randori. Wouldn't surprise me in the least, our kyu grades (remember, aiki-fruitie territory here) are often made up of people who wouldn't even last a single judo lesson. A lot of time is often spent inducing aggression into them (along with encouraging them to get a bit fitter) so we can start looking at any sort of effective defense.

Now once you get into the dan grades, I'd be less sanguine on who to recommend as by then, people have been bitten by the bug and the aikido (like the judo) is no longer a hobby but a habit. Most long-term aikido practitioners that I know have always been of the "get together for an informal bash later" or (just as often) cross-train.

Is this a fault in (our) aikido, actually I don't think it is. I've been impressed by judo guys who show a very good foundation in how to fight very early on. However, many of the "better" judo schools competition-wise have also been rather discriminating with their students, insisting they pass a test of fire to continue to train at that school. In aikido, I've seen some of the least-likely wimps actually become reasonably dangerous over a period of time, often to their own great surprise.

In summary, from my experience of the two, they're both good arts to learn, I'd just go with which one you feel most comfortable with. They've both got their own unique problems, so it comes back to the old find a dojo/teacher you like.

Michael Neal
07-14-2004, 07:31 AM
Why would they "narrow the gap" Michael? Why wouldn't they be as good if not better?

I am still a bit hesitant because I have yet to see any Aikido randori that rises to the level of Judo randori, maybe you guys do but I have not seen it. But doing hard randori would certainly make Aikido better able to handle Judo randori, I am just not sure how much better yet.

What about a Jujitsudoka who practices fully resistant sparring? Would he/she "narrow the gap" to an average Judoka?

It would narrow the gap sure but you must remember the following story, It was extracted from the here http://www.judoinfo.com/jhist3.htm where Judo defeated jujitsu in a series of matches, I am sure it apples to Aikido as well.

"The Tokyo Metropolitan Police Board, because of the functions of its office took an active interest in the revival of Jujitsu, as well as Kenjutsu, the Japanese fencing, and other martial exercises. The new Kodokan Judo was the centre of public attention. Everyone admired it tenets and slogans and its high idealism. But its practical merits in combat were looked upon with doubts and suspicion and even contempt by old Jujitsu men, including the then outstanding master Hikosuke Totsuka, who commanded a very large following. Naturally there developed a keen rivalry between the Totsuka School and the Kodokan. In 1886, under the auspices of the Chief of Metropolitan Police, a grand tournament was arranged between both schools. This was a decisive battle. Defeat would have been fatal to the Kodokan. But in that tournament, to which each school sent 15 picked men, the Kodokan won all the bouts excepting two which ended in a draw (note: it is tempting to speculate that such contests were more like duels than sporting events, considering the time period). That brilliant victory established once and for all the supremacy of the Kodokan Judo over all Jujitsu schools, not only in principles but also in techniques. "

it's meaningless... the whole "an average judoka could kick an average aikidodoka's arse" argument is meaningless.. it deals in broad generalities which are also meaningless (my "freaking" argument from the very start)...

Not meaningless at all, it is true

PS: Here is an intersting link about randori if anyone is interested

http://www.judoinfo.com/randori1.htm

p00kiethebear
07-14-2004, 02:28 PM
Stay your distance; do not get close (it will be their advantage). Hiji ate, ushiro kokyu nage, irimi-zuki, shihonage and shiho kuzushi nage are good choices. Remember Osae or pinning techniques are judokas forte, avoid getting in to them when faced with a ju-doka. Use atemi liberally. Use what aikido is good for, evasion and counter from unexpected angle, surprise is the active ingredient. Use hit an run tactics Your syllables include bokken and jo training, use it. Force them to maintain their distance, disallowing a ju-doka to get close.

I like the part about keeping your distance. I still think it's better to just pick up a rock and throw it at them though. Well... Maybe a brick or a cinder block would be better. :freaky:

But that's more along the lines of something musashi would do.

Bronson
07-14-2004, 02:52 PM
I mean sure if the Aikidoka keeps a distance by running away the Judoka will never get to throw him but I don't see how that is a win for the Aikidoka.

I'm still standing, I'm a winner :D

So what you guys did was go into a Judo dojo and ran around the place avoiding being thrown and consider that a victory and frustrating the Judoka's effort. It makes sense now. :)

Well, I didn't run around :) I got in there and mixed it up. To be honest the only thing I was able to do was frustrate the judokas efforts. I could keep him from throwing me most of the time by playing defensive but I had absolutely no chance of throwing him. As I stated above "I'm still standing, I'm a winner :D "

Bronson

spin13
07-14-2004, 03:20 PM
So, in a baking contest between a deliciously moist victoria sponge and hard yet fiendishly crisp ginger snap, who would win?

You've got it all wrong, silly. The more appropriate question is who would win in a fight, a bear or a shark! Bears and sharks are neat! The answer is of utmost importance! A close second, however, is who would win in a fight, me or said ginger snap. Mmmmmm. :)

Not meaningless at all, it is true.

Truth implies nothing about inherent meaning. I own more than one pair of socks; I hope you can believe that this is indeed true (jokes about my cleanliness and cold feet aside). Is this fact meaningful? I don't think so. You might and that is for you to decide but it is nothing to push upon others. And if it was actually a lie, would that make the statement meaningful either? Not particularly. You might have grounds for the argument that I am a liar, but for such a crime, I wouldn't take the generalized notion that I am a liar in all circumstances with any seriousness. You may choose to treat me differently, but then again, that is you personally adding meaning to it, whereas it is still meaningless to me.

If I may make a comment on the entire argument, your position may very well be true. Then again, it might not be. Some people feel this is relevant, some do not. Since I believe everybody has agreed that the study of both Judo and Aikido are worthwhile, albeit different, furthering the discussion seems pointless.

I happened to enjoy hearing that many people are actually gaining enough martial prowess through their respective art enough to skill to throw feints, lead their opponent, and such. This gives me something to look forward to as I have just started upon my own martial journey. It's also good to see that enough people have tried both arts enough to realize their respective strengths and weaknesses, as both standalone arts and when meeting with the other. It's also interesting to hear such facts about Jujutsu and Judo - it was not something I would have considered based on my knowledge of the difference between -do and -jutsu arts. So by all means, I encourage all parties involved to continue to share their experiences. Read what you will into their meanings and how they can or do relate to you and your experiences, and if you feel you must, try to push this relevance on others, but know that in the latter you are fighting a losing battle.

Take it easy,
-spin

kironin
07-14-2004, 04:04 PM
It would narrow the gap sure but you must remember the following story, It was extracted from the here http://www.judoinfo.com/jhist3.htm where Judo defeated jujitsu in a series of matches, I am sure it apples to Aikido as well.


If you are going to pull up old history. Then you would have to pull up things also like Koichi Tohei Sensei's first visits to Hawaii in the 1950's when Judo players challenged him and lost. This was far from friendly sparring matches. One occasion he was asked to take 4 Judo players at one time in front of an audience and wiped the floor with them. There was even video. This was a reason why many of the early aikido students in Hawaii had previously been Judo players.

So what's truth ?

Craig

Michael Neal
07-14-2004, 04:24 PM
Well I think Koichi Tohei differs greatly from the averege Aikidoka. I am sure Ueshiba could have tossed some Judoka as well. But they certainly trained alot differently than most Aikidoka do today.

But put Koichi Tohei vs. a Judoka of the same stature like Kimura, Yamashita, etc. and I would put my money on those Judoka for sure.

mj
07-14-2004, 04:27 PM
Didn't Tohei do Judo before Aikido? :)

And Shioda-san, Tomiki-san, Mochizuki-san and many others afaik.

Chris Birke
07-14-2004, 05:47 PM
In my opinion, there are two main aspects to the "Have you sparred with a Judoka" question that have split this thread; I see both as being equally important, and in the interest of clarity we should make a distinction.

One, is the meeting of techniques - the Judo strategy vs the Aikido strategy - and in this there is much to discuss. I think this is more of what Peter initially expected.

The other is the Aikido vs the Judo with regard to how their training stacks in competition.

Because both Aikido and Competition are involved, people are bound to become irritated. =)

Amassus
07-14-2004, 06:18 PM
I'm going to put my humble opinion in here (God help me) simply because its hard to resist.

I'm only a kyu grade but all this talk of resistance randori got me thinking.

Is it actually possible to fully resist in aikido without someone getting seriously hurt? I mean, even if both aikidoka are very good and attempt to guide and move each other's actions to gain advantage, sooner or later someone will get a wrist lock or throw that the other can't get out of. Then what do you do? Do you resist kote gaeshi to the last and get your wrist injured? Do you succumb and take a breakfall?

Judoka train hard but it is predominantly a sport now. The rules and techniques have been refined to provide safety and entertainment more than anything else. Don't get me wrong, they are tough cookies, but they are fighting hard within a set of rules.

Aikido doesn't have the luxury of being a sport and therefore having clear 'fighting' guidelines. A part from a few styles of course. Those styles that do have a competitive angle have had to leave out certain techniques as well to make it safer.

So I guess I'm saying that aikido doesn't see much hard out resistance training because the majority of clubs aren't sports orientated and fully resisting some techniques might not end in a thorw but a broken or injured joint.

Of course this is putting aikido philosophy aside.

(Prepares for backlash)

Chris Birke
07-14-2004, 06:29 PM
Well, there are competitions that fully allow almost all Aikido techniques. People are willing to compete in this despite the danger of getting seriously hurt, but I have rarely (if ever) seen any of our locks succeed (or even preformed).

Has anyone seen this?

I would be more than willing to compete with someone my size and skill level with rules that allow Aikido techniques.

kironin
07-14-2004, 07:43 PM
Didn't Tohei do Judo before Aikido? :)

And Shioda-san, Tomiki-san, Mochizuki-san and many others afaik.

yes, he had nidan in Judo at 19 when dissatisfied with what he felt were shortcomings to it, he went looking for something else. Found this old man Ueshiba M. who challenged him to take him on and when he did found his ass flying across the room.

Craig

kironin
07-14-2004, 07:48 PM
But put Koichi Tohei vs. a Judoka of the same stature like Kimura, Yamashita, etc. and I would put my money on those Judoka for sure.

like I said if you are going to dig up history.

speaking of which I will take that bet.

get a shovel and dig them up.
Tohei Sensei maybe 85 but he is still alive.
evileyes


Craig

Michael Neal
07-14-2004, 08:01 PM
I hope this this discussion encourages people to test out their Aikido more and expand its possibilities. Go to Judo school if you wish or get together with other Aikidoka to try some new things like sparring and such. But if you do go to a Judo school and want to try your Aikido just have the courtesy to ask your training partner beforehand, and agree upon the level of resisitance you want to randori with.

If some aikidoka came to my school and did randori with me and then went to some forum to post that he had tossed a Judoka I would be pretty pissed, especially since I intentionally do not go all out with new people that come to our class. I also let people throw me all the time during randori because most randori is about learning and helping your partner learn as well. Heavy randori is generally left to people who have a little more experience and there is a general agreement before this kind of sparring. Just like you don't do full strength Aikido throws on beginners right? At least I hope not. This would be like me going to an Aikido school saying I was a beginner and then when doing practice throwing an unsuspecting Aikidoka down and choking them, after that running to the internet to tell all how I thrashed an Aikidoka today.

Michael Neal
07-14-2004, 08:02 PM
like I said if you are going to dig up history.

speaking of which I will take that bet.

get a shovel and dig them up.
Tohei Sensei maybe 85 but he is still alive.
evileyes


Craig
Well Yamashita is still alive as well so you are on :)

xuzen
07-14-2004, 10:29 PM
[QUOTE=Nathan Gidney]I like the part about keeping your distance. I still think it's better to just pick up a rock and throw it at them though. Well... Maybe a brick or a cinder block would be better. :freaky:

Hey Nate, anything that works is OK, after all in Aikido, we are train to fight so as not to lose; without too many rules and regulations very dissimlar to sport.

How about this: Throw a brick at your opponent, while he is distracted, run towards him at Godspeed, grab your tsuke with your right hand, saya with the left, then commit a kesagiri cut followed by a shomen cut, return blade to saya. Bow, walk off. Opps too much watching Rurouni kenshin anime. Sorry to all.
:sorry:

Boon

L. Camejo
07-15-2004, 06:53 AM
Well said Boon.:)

This is similar to my take on it. If you're going to do Judo randori in a Judo dojo the rules imply that you folow Judo rules and don't try any funny stuff. However, if it is an open situation where the rules are blurred, use what weapon/art works best for you.

I say - always take your best knife to a knife fight and stick to the rules of the game, but pack your 9MM in case they want to change the game and go all out.:)

Aikido is my 9. evileyes

On another note - Hiden Mitsurugi Rocks!!! :cool:

LC:ai::ki:

The Wrenster
07-15-2004, 09:02 AM
Im only a kyu grade at the mo, but my school trains in many MA. There is a Shodan Aikido and Iado guy at our school, who is very good (as moset shodans should be) but he has only recently taken up Judo. I am a higher grade in Judo than him, but when he started, initially relying on his aiki principles, i was getting very frustrated... i could not close on him properly, and every time i got a grip, nasty things would happen to my wrist. After a few months, he has 'loosened up', so now when he does randori, it is Judo with the benefits of aikido, not Aikido in Judo rules, which make fighting him much more fun. There are a lot of ppl at my school who train in both MA, and it is very obvious which ones do practice Aikido and which do not... primarily in the way they move, and the fact that they are very hard to throw if they want to be stubborn. i have found that even in Newaza, the aikidoka have a good game with us judoka, as the training is very different. I find it hard to break their balnce on the ground as they are so stable. I love training with these guys as it shows where Judo is ineefective, and how to work against uncooperative partners (ie, heavily resistant) I belive they also benefit from training as they get to work at speed agains fast and strong opponants who wont cooperate, and who are trying to deck them at the same time. This is something that i hvae only seen at the higher levels of training in Aikido at my school.
I'm in the mood for a bit of a rumble now actually... time to get my gi on :D

mj
07-15-2004, 10:53 AM
I have a story, but it isn't very pleasant.

A few years ago a regular visitor to our aiki club (we were more iwama-ish, he was more ki-ish) with his new black belt. He had just sat his dan test and had passed.

While he was being congratulated by the club he approached me and said something along the lines of "well, your judo strangles won't work on me anymore". 'Probably' I replied.

At the end of the class he approached me and demanded that I try to strangle him - to which I said I didn't think it was a good idea. He took that as an insult (which it probably was) and started getting personal about it.

Ok fair enough, so I strangled him but didn't knock him out. He was doing this daft thing trying to move my elbows by chopping them or something so I tied up his feet with my legs so he had no leverage. Tap tap.

He never came back to the club and he was pretty furious when he left by the look on his face. I just shrugged when my sensei stared at me, I wasn't going to let the guy out of it was I? :rolleyes:

Aikido rules, but so does Judo.

L. Camejo
07-15-2004, 11:04 AM
Great story Mark.:)

You are right, they both rule and they both teach humility, something we should all remember.:) I like how you approached the whole thing.

Reminds me of that story with Seagal and Gene Le Bell.

LC:ai::ki:

happysod
07-15-2004, 11:09 AM
Aah, the classic Steven Seagal method of aikido vs chokes... always a good one to use.

Note to self - one of these days I must write a cartoon strip where the evil (yet stragely inept) Ki aikido black belt visits another dojo and gets soundly defeated by the staunch and brave [insert style here] follower - just a thought as it happens with appalling regularity on this board....

kironin
07-15-2004, 11:16 AM
While he was being congratulated by the club he approached me and said something along the lines of "well, your judo strangles won't work on me anymore". 'Probably' I replied.
.

LOL.

That's unfortunately all too common in human beings.

Give me a new color belt or a piece of sheep skin or dunk me in water and miraculously I am somehow a better/smarter/saintlier person than the day before.

It sounds to me like it was really his fault.
Craig
;)

Michael Neal
07-15-2004, 11:49 AM
http://judoforum.com/index.php?showtopic=1430

Above is a link to an interesting incident I had with an arrogant guy who was a 2nd Degree Blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do. Usually it is required that you go through a 3 month beginner course at our dojo before you allowed to go to the regular classes. He insisted that he could go to the regular class immediately since he supposedly had Aikido experience. It was obvious he had no Aikido experience at all when he just kind of flopped on the ground trying to brace his fall with his arm stuck out. Later he told someone he only had a freind with Aikido experience, as if that was enough to be able to take hard breakfalls.

After a couple of deliberately hard randori sessions he never showed up again.

xuzen
07-15-2004, 11:17 PM
Dear Mike,

Just attended practice, and yesterday, we were doing techniques against kicks. Straight front kick, side kick, slapping kick etc. The principle of nage is the same, step in, reap & throw. Only difference is, move faster and must have more courage to irimi. The same is for weapons, side kick = yokomen ; roundhouse = gyake yokomen; front slapping = shomen, straight front kick = tsuki etc.

From the perspective of uke; It is much heavier fall, not very enjoyable. If I am up against a grappler (judo, aikido, BJJ etc), I would not recommend kicks, unless the kicker love ukemi from high position. Since kicks are used to extend reach, using a weapon will give you the same effect minus the instability. Wonder why kicks are still employed? Any TKD cross trainer care to comment?

Boon

Michael Neal
07-16-2004, 07:50 AM
against a grappler I think fast low kicks like in Muay Thai can be effective but still are risky. High kicks would be suicide for the most part.

Ian Williams
07-16-2004, 07:06 PM
instead of an us vs them confrontation maybe we could steer the discussion towards how Aikido could be used against a judoka/grappler.. ie, what techniques could be used to break a grip etc so that the Judoka is not in such a good position to execute their throws..

mj
07-16-2004, 07:23 PM
Well firstly you will have to train in breaking gi grips (or any cloth grip) which is a different form of physics from breaking a body (ie wrist) grip.

L. Camejo
07-16-2004, 08:47 PM
Why break the grip to begin with? Why not use it?

disabledaccount
07-17-2004, 12:08 AM
Hey all. This site tackles some interesting topics concerning judo and may provide some food for thought concerning martial effectivness. After checking it out I will definately think twice before stepping onto the mat with a judoka.

http://www.matbattle.com/

Oh, and don't choke on your milk when you see this one kiddies.

Michael Neal
07-17-2004, 12:47 AM
LOL, yea that is an infamous site that instills grave fear in all heterosexual Judoka and BJJ guys.

This one is pretty bad as well about Turkish Wrestling, I don't think I will ever try that out. It is legal to stick your hands down other contestants shorts to get a grip since they oil themselves up.

http://www.turkishwrestling.com/video_gallery.htm

mj
07-17-2004, 05:12 AM
Why break the grip to begin with? Why not use it?


heh. Because you will get nothing from the grip.

Consider the grip to be like an insects antennae, it transmits all your intentions, your state of mind, your balance. It will be totally relaxed 60% of the time, giving no energy. When it is used for power, the power will not come from the arms or shoulders but through the whole body (in Judo you learn to keep your elbows lower than your wrists too).

Gripping is an art all on its own. Breaking the grip usually means 'retreating' to a more aikido-like distance too.

L. Camejo
07-17-2004, 09:49 AM
heh. Because you will get nothing from the grip.

If you know how to use it, even "nothing" itself can be of use.:)

Gripping is an art all on its own. Breaking the grip usually means 'retreating' to a more aikido-like distance too.

Not necessarily, though I thought the train of thought for this part of the thread based on Ian's recent question:

instead of an us vs them confrontation maybe we could steer the discussion towards how Aikido could be used against a judoka/grappler

At which point he offered grip breaking as one option.

Consider the grip to be like an insects antennae, it transmits all your intentions, your state of mind, your balance. It will be totally relaxed 60% of the time, giving no energy. When it is used for power, the power will not come from the arms or shoulders but through the whole body (in Judo you learn to keep your elbows lower than your wrists too).

As well as in Aikido (or at least the one I do), it applies to tegatana. The same basic principles applied in Judo standing randori is applied in our Toshu Randori, the only real difference is in the techniques allowed. In fact it is from my Toshu experience that I have been able to work some things from the Judo standing grip. My only problem is in refining my Judo waza as the setups tend to be for Aikido techs of which most are illegal when I'm in Judo class.

One example of using the grip to effect techinque in Judo rules while using Aikido is in the case of dropping one's tegatana and weight onto the inner bend of the elbow joint to cause kuzushi, while steping forward and offline. This I use to set up for gyaku gamae ate (sokumen) in Aikido. In Judo this technique is illegal, but it's a good setup for things like ko soto gari and other techs that can exploit that back corner. And during this time, the partner's grip is not broken, just modified to be less effective in that area where you want to break balance and throw.

Just some thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

off the page
07-17-2004, 10:34 PM
This subject hit home. I trained in Aikido for several years before playing around in Judo. When my Dojo closed I found myself full time in Judo. I decided to compete, well in my mind I was. The first few years I got spanked all over the floor. Following no resistance, I made my competitor's throws look spectacular.

After many falls and losses, I finally begin to get the hang of it and my losses became even less. Unlike Aikido, I suffered many injuries, minor, but constant so I returned back to Aikido. It was not until my return to Aikido that I realized just how much I learned from Judo. My ukemi improved so much. Moving from my center was finally clear.

I highly recommend giving it a try. Judo compliments Aikido. Where Aikido is at arms length, Judo is body to body. As most fights go to the ground, Judo goes to the ground.

shihonage
07-17-2004, 11:18 PM
Following no resistance, I made my competitor's throws look spectacular.


Forgive me but that sounds pretty strange.
You come into a competitive dojo where they expect resistance and you don't give them any.

As most fights go to the ground, Judo goes to the ground.

This has been neither proven nor disproven.
Personally, I've been in many scuffles from kindergarden up to 12th grade, and only one of them ended on the ground.

Ian Williams
07-18-2004, 04:19 AM
Why break the grip to begin with? Why not use it?

I dunno, you tell me .. how ?


(actual question, not smart arse come back)

L. Camejo
07-18-2004, 10:18 AM
I dunno, you tell me .. how ?


(actual question, not smart arse come back)

Hey Ian,

Check out post #150 on page 5 of this thread. At the end I gave an example.

The technique is similar to if one applies gyaku gamae ate (sokumen) against double sleeve grab near the shoulder (similar to the hand position some Judoka may take, at least with one hand). Instead of breaking the grip, apply tegatana and drop weight into the crease above the elbow. This moves your partner's arm across his body and brings his shoulder toward you (or at least downward, breaking his posture) but does not break the grip. In this case one can go for Ko Soto Gari, De Ashi Harai maybe even Sumi Otoshi or something of the sort.

In fact it is because he keeps the grip that his shoulder starts to turn towards you, if he releases he can easily disengage and grab you again. The thing is though, in keeping his grip he may be able to use the turn to help him enter for Morote Seoi Nage, a modified Koshi Guruma or something that uses that line.

The nice thing about standing grappling in both arts is that no one technique is necessarily fool proof, there are so many counters. In fact I think Judo has helped me to improve my Aikido counters a hell of a lot in that regard.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

darin
07-18-2004, 10:43 AM
I also found doing some judo, karate and jujitsu helped with my aikido too.

Red Beetle
06-04-2005, 01:53 AM
I once had a guy visit my school. When he found out that I also trained and taught Aikido, he told me this story of an event that happened at one of his former schools.

This guy told me that once at his Korean Yudo school, a group of Aikido black belts came in and challenged their class. :blush:

He said it was the most fun he has ever had. Him and his friends got to execute all types throws and of 'show-taps' (fancy submissions typically done at demonstrations). :cool:

The Judo guys would even call out the name of the throw they were going to do before the match started, then go and do it. ;)

He said that he personally bitch-slammed 3 aikido guys before the day was out. A bitch-slam, from what I gathered was equivelent to a bitch-slap. "If they want to wear dresses, then treat them like bitches." this guy said. :eek:

The guy continued, "When it had been proven that Aikido was the weaker art, we made them all hand us their black belts, then crawl out of our dojo." :yuck:

He said that they decided to visit the Aikido guys at their next class. When that day came he said that him and his fellow judo black belts went over to their dojo and did a rowdy bunch challenge match on them. I asked him what a "rowdy bunch challenge match" was. He told me that this is where you and your guys go over to another dojo while they are in full practice. You go in and line up on the mats. Then, you yell, "GO!!!" And you and your boys proceed to whip everything in sight. He said that when they were finished it looked like somebody let off a sleeping bomb in that place. There were people in black skirts laying everywhere. He said that they were nice enough to leave their black belts, which they had collected earlier, laying on their unconscious owners when they left. And, that they sprayed painted "JUDO RULZ" on the wall next to the door. And on the wall next to the dressing rooms they painted, "Sensei should stop teaching and open up a laundry mat". In the bathroom they spray painted over the toilet paper dispenser , "Pull here for Aikido black belt."

I laughed at the story, then started our usual class.
Note: this guy didn't do well against any of my students in Randori.

Red Beetle

www.kingsportjudo.com

Red Beetle
06-04-2005, 02:03 AM
Xu: I like the part about keeping your distance. I still think it's better to just pick up a rock and throw it at them though. Well... Maybe a brick or a cinder block would be better. :freaky:

I know a guy who got pissed off and really threw a brick at this other guy. It knocked him retarded or something. The guy throwing the brick went to jail. He should have thrown something else (like a hot dog). :D

Red Beetle

bob_stra
06-04-2005, 04:55 AM
...

The guy continued, "When it had been proven that Aikido was the weaker art, we made them all hand us their black belts, then crawl out of our dojo." :yuck:

He said that they decided to visit the Aikido guys at their next class. ... There were people in black skirts laying everywhere. He said that they were nice enough to leave their black belts, which they had collected earlier, laying on their unconscious owners when they left. And, that they sprayed painted "JUDO RULZ" on the wall next to the door. And on the wall next to the dressing rooms they painted, "Sensei should stop teaching and open up a laundry mat". In the bathroom they spray painted over the toilet paper dispenser , "Pull here for Aikido black belt."


IMHO…that behaviour is a more than a little repugnant. If the event actually happened (and who's ever heard of aikidoka doing a dojo invasion?), the judoka should have bested the aikidoka on the day they invaded and left it at that.

Everything else is just machismo / 'men behaving badly' (to quote the British TV sitcom). I don't think that Judo club, (or any other) would garner many new sign ups by encouraging such behaviour. IMHO.

YMMV.

Red Beetle
06-04-2005, 04:14 PM
IMHO…that behaviour is a more than a little repugnant. If the event actually happened (and who's ever heard of aikidoka doing a dojo invasion?), the judoka should have bested the aikidoka on the day they invaded and left it at that.

Everything else is just machismo / 'men behaving badly' (to quote the British TV sitcom). I don't think that Judo club, (or any other) would garner many new sign ups by encouraging such behaviour. IMHO.

YMMV.

I really don't think it happened.
The guy was just trying to impress us.
I had beginners who handled him rather easily.
So, although the story was somewhat creative and humerous, I have never heard of anything like that happening.
Red Beetle

maikerus
06-06-2005, 01:25 AM
I really don't think it happened.
The guy was just trying to impress us.
I had beginners who handled him rather easily.
So, although the story was somewhat creative and humerous, I have never heard of anything like that happening.
Red Beetle

Monty...next time be more clear in your initial post. You lose credibility when you omit important details like the above.

FWIW,

--Michael

Red Beetle
06-06-2005, 02:15 AM
Sorry.
I thought it would fit nicely under a thread titled: Tales...

Red Beetle

PeterR
06-06-2005, 02:32 AM
Well most of the tales were of actualy experiences not hear say.

Last week I showed up early for my AIkido class and took one of the Judo instructors for a ride. Great fun that.

Michael Neal
06-06-2005, 09:14 AM
We have had 4 Aikidoka join our Judo club in last year or so, none of them have even been able to apply a single aikido technique on me even when I said it was fine to use it during randori with me.

batemanb
06-06-2005, 09:34 AM
We have had 4 Aikidoka join our Judo club in last year or so, none of them have even been able to apply a single aikido technique on me even when I said it was fine to use it during randori with me.

Not really wanting to get into an us vs them type thread, but surely this really boils down to their and your abilities at your respective arts, and the training paradigm into which they were trying to use their techniques.

I'm in no way assuming that if I walked into a judo dojo that I could apply an aikido technique on you in a randori, but that doesn't mean that aikido couldn't be applied, it just means that I couldn't apply it.

rgds

Bryan

PeterR
06-06-2005, 10:02 PM
To take it a bit further.

If I as an Aikido man walked into a Judo dojo and engaged in Judo randori with one of the regulars I would expect to be dominated all things being equal. Same goes for walking into a boxing ring and trying to box. Conversely a Judo guy trying to do Shodokan Aikido randori (all things being equal) will be dominated. I would expect a Judo guy to pick up Shodokan randori pretty quickly as there are quite a few similarities with the reverse also being true. This has been shown time and time again both in Judo and Shodokan Aikido dojos.

However, if we take an Aikidoist from another style other than Shodokan or a style which does Judo like randori (such as Yoseikan) and they decide to enter a Judo dojo I disagree completely with the premiss that they are toast and always will be.

First of all - those that do enter have already been self selected. They want to try something new and are not afraid to do so. With a good Budo background the learning curve can be very steep - Aikido taught right, even without randori, can provide that background.

Michael Neal
06-07-2005, 12:46 PM
The vast majority of Aikido out there is not Shodokan and they do not do intense randori, they would most likely be toast.

You guys have never bothered to listen to word I have said here on Aikiweb about Judo and Aikido, you just get into defensive mode.

I have said for a very long time that it is the training methods that make a martial art effective, and if Aikido did more randori (as with Shodokan) it would be more likely to stand up to Judo. I have always said this over and over again but you all seem to choose to believe I am saying something else.

Kevin Leavitt
06-07-2005, 01:50 PM
I here ya Michael. AND understand where you are coming form. ...the question I have that goes unanswered is EFFECTIVE AT WHAT????

Everyone makes assumptions about what aikido is or isn't from their own perspective. We all think our perspective is the one that matters and that we define aikido. You can define aikido for yourself, but not for everyone else!

I think at some level you have to take aikido and make it yours. Sometimes I go slow and practice like we do in aikido dojo. Other times I train fast and hard at full speeds with punches kicks and good randori. The funny thing is that it turns into MMA when I do that!!! So is it still aikido?

It depends on the perspective. I still have the aiki spirit and my attitude is exactly the same, AND I am following principles. But I think, to the average aikidoka they would say "that's not aikido, thats MMA, or BJJ, or Judo, or something else!!!

Perspective is everything.

I don't disagree with you however about randori necessarily. Just not sure it belongs in EVERY dojo, as each has it's own purpose and overall I have found Aikidoka and aikido to be oriented towards a completely different goal than you or I may have at a particular time and situation!

Again, It helps to understand the boundaries of what you define as EFFECTIVE!

rob_liberti
06-07-2005, 02:15 PM
However, if we take an Aikidoist from another style other than Shodokan or a style which does Judo like randori (such as Yoseikan) and they decide to enter a Judo dojo I disagree completely with the premiss that they are toast and always will be.

First of all - those that do enter have already been self selected. They want to try something new and are not afraid to do so. With a good Budo background the learning curve can be very steep - Aikido taught right, even without randori, can provide that background.

This was really well said. If a really good Judo person joins an aikido dojo that doesn't focus on randori, but instead focuses on movements with symbolic attacks without directly lifting, pushing or pulling they are not going to be automatically in the top of the class either. But if they continue there for a while, they may find some pretty good benefits to their judo game. I've seen this happen a few times myself. I'm not saying that one of the average guys from the symbolic attack world of an aikido school would be anything other than a fish out of water in a Judo randori either until a similar amount of experience can be achieved - but I think Peter said it better than I could.

Rob

Michael Neal
06-07-2005, 04:42 PM
To take it a bit further.

If I as an Aikido man walked into a Judo dojo and engaged in Judo randori with one of the regulars I would expect to be dominated all things being equal. Same goes for walking into a boxing ring and trying to box. Conversely a Judo guy trying to do Shodokan Aikido randori (all things being equal) will be dominated. I would expect a Judo guy to pick up Shodokan randori pretty quickly as there are quite a few similarities with the reverse also being true. This has been shown time and time again both in Judo and Shodokan Aikido dojos.

However, if we take an Aikidoist from another style other than Shodokan or a style which does Judo like randori (such as Yoseikan) and they decide to enter a Judo dojo I disagree completely with the premiss that they are toast and always will be.

First of all - those that do enter have already been self selected. They want to try something new and are not afraid to do so. With a good Budo background the learning curve can be very steep - Aikido taught right, even without randori, can provide that background.

Peter, the Aikidoka that join Judo are always ahead of the game when compared to the other beginners and they progress much faster. But they are usually not prepared to go toe to toe with a Judoka that has some experience. For example, someone with 2 years Aikido experience will generally be tossed around like a rag doll by someone with 2 years Judo experience. I am sure there are exceptions, but this is true genrally speaking at least in my experience. If people don't want to belive me that that is their perogative.

Mike Sigman
06-07-2005, 04:59 PM
Peter, the Aikidoka that join Judo are always ahead of the game when compared to the other beginners and they progress much faster. But they are usually not prepared to go toe to toe with a Judoka that has some experience. For example, someone with 2 years Aikido experience will generally be tossed around like a rag doll by someone with 2 years Judo experience. I am sure there are exceptions, but this is true genrally speaking at least in my experience. If people don't want to belive me that that is their perogative. Hi Michael:

I wouldn't want to speculate quite that specifically, but I agree with your point, more or less. I would inject the point that you're really talking about the vast majority of Aikido, but not some of the stuff practiced by a tiny few in Aikido and who can actually use Aikido (not an MMA, judo, karate, etc., version of Aikido).

The problem is that a lot of people, reading what you're saying, will either go "No way!" or worse yet "well, maybe that might happen at a dojo, but still Aikido would be great in a 'real fight' ". In other words, I'm just re-inforcing what you're saying and trying to curb what I know is a common thought that somehow, even if Aikido wouldn't do well in the ring, it would do well in a "real fight'. It will do OK, maybe, if the "real fight" is with someone who doesn't know how to fight, but against an experienced and aggressive fighter there's going to be a problem.

FWIW

Mike

Michael Neal
06-07-2005, 05:04 PM
I agree, Aikido is an effective martial art. Judo actually incoporated some Aikido into their Kata.

PeterR
06-07-2005, 06:35 PM
For example, someone with 2 years Aikido experience will generally be tossed around like a rag doll by someone with 2 years Judo experience.
Duh!! I would expect no less in a Judo dojo where they would be doing Judo. However, the real question is how long does the difference last.

In six months of training together in Judo how does the Aikidoist fare. Actually I would consider the answer indicative of the quality of the Aikido instruction since the principles are essentially the same with only the training program being altered.

Michael Neal
06-07-2005, 08:08 PM
Duh!! I would expect no less in a Judo dojo where they would be doing Judo

It is my opionion that the Judoka would have the same advantage in an all out fight as well, not just practicing Judo. However I have said over and over, if the Aikodoka trains heavy randori frequently then that advantage would shrink away from the Judoka.

However, the real question is how long does the difference last.

That is a good question but I guess you would have to consider alot of variables as you mentioned.

PeterR
06-07-2005, 08:27 PM
We are of the same opinion when it comes to an all out fight. Any degree of dynamic resistive training is essential to separate the wheat from the chaff in addition to providing lessons in their own right. Of course you could do that by taking it outside the dojo.

Aikido (even Shodokan since you can advance quite far without doing randori) has room for the chaff to happily do what they do and that is not a problem in my book. What I am trying to point out though is the lack of randori training is relatively easily overcome by starting randori training. A person trained well in kata only should have a very steep learning curve. I have very strong ideas what constitutes quality kata training but that is another thread. Shodokan dogma is that randori and kata work together and if you look at the Judo method a very similar mantra exists. Shodokan tends to emphasize kata first then randori (although we introduce low level versions of the latter on the first day) whereas Judo goes the other way.

L. Camejo
06-07-2005, 08:40 PM
It is my opionion that the Judoka would have the same advantage in an all out fight as well, not just practicing Judo. However I have said over and over, if the Aikodoka trains heavy randori frequently then that advantage would shrink away from the Judoka.

My opinion is that the Judoka's advantage would not shrink but disappear almost completely if the Aikidoka engaged in regular resistance based randori using Aiki waza.;)

It's interesting to see how these folks respond (or don't respond) when you bait them just right and then execute waza which is illegal in the vast majority of their regular training. They just need to grab onto something for their stuff to work.:D

LC:ai::ki:

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 09:25 AM
And Aikidoka need a commited attack in order to get their stuff to work, something Judoka don't offer too often until they already have you off balance.

I would love to experience Shodokan Aikido randori and I am disappointed that there are no schools around me. And if I got put on my butt I would smile and enjoy the whole experience. But right now I have not had that experience so I can only base my views on what I know from my own encounters.

Does anyone know the closest Shodokan dojo to Washington D.C?

rob_liberti
06-08-2005, 09:41 AM
This will be more of a "clue" or a "lead" than direct help but one time when I was training in Japan I met an American guy who was very into Tomiki aikido and he said he trained in the D.C. area. He was very new. You appear passionate enough about this, maybe you could go visit Peter's dojo in Japan and try it out there.

As far as "And Aikidoka need a commited attack in order to get their stuff to work" - I have to say that I used to try to work towards moving such that the only threat is a commited attack. I'm finding that I need to have a mind of attack in order to do that - but I think that's a progression in learning aikido.

Rob

L. Camejo
06-08-2005, 09:52 AM
And Aikidoka need a commited attack in order to get their stuff to work, something Judoka don't offer too often until they already have you off balance.

I would love to experience Shodokan Aikido randori and I am disappointed that there are no schools around me. And if I got put on my butt I would smile and enjoy the whole experience. But right now I have not had that experience so I can only base my views on what I know from my own encounters.

Does anyone know the closest Shodokan dojo to Washington D.C?

Hey Michael,

Actually the way we do things we don't actually need a committed attack, but a committed one makes things a helluvalot easier though.:) The Toshu and Tanto Randori we do is based on each side trying to get off an effective technique while not giving anything away that the other side can use e.g. committed attacks, self inflicted kuzushi etc., much like Judo randori.

Not sure if there are any Shodokan schools in the D.C. area (I think there may be one in Baltimore, MD though). The best place to check may be www.tomiki.org. Up to January this year I visited the D.C. area regularly, but since there were no Shodokan dojos nearby I shopped around other styles until I settled on practicing at Capital Aikikai in Silver Spring. They did seem interested in me doing a resistance randori seminar though, maybe I should contact em about it and let you know if it works out.

It's great to cross train with the Judo though, one learns so much about kuzushi applications against resistance, helps a lot for our Toshu randori practice.

Just some thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Kevin Leavitt
06-08-2005, 11:43 AM
As far as committed attacks, I have been struggling with this. In the rules of engagement in at least BJJ that I do two guys approach each other with the intent to grapple.

When I try to engage from my "aikido distance" a judo guy or a grappler will simply not play my game, I won't play his...so we posture round and round.

Eventually someone has to enter and start the grappling in order to train the close in skills.

My point is in a "real fight" I'd never enter, i'd simply walk off or keep distance until he came with a committed attack. either way I win from my point of view (at least on the point of intial tactical advantage).

This simply does not enter into the paradigm of the grappling arts during training....at least in my experiences. I think it is important and makes a huge difference in the interaction.

Ron Tisdale
06-08-2005, 12:14 PM
Hi Kevin,

I'm just currious...what do you do with a standard boxer's shuffle step balanced attack with combinations? Esp. with a wall at your back? Don't feel bad if you don't have an answer...I don't have a good one either. This is not to say that 'aikido doesn't work in that situation'...just that I have a hard time sometimes imagining MY aikido working in that situation...

Best,
Ron

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 12:28 PM
Kevin,

That is why I think Aikido is good at self defense but not ideal in a style vs. style match, especially against grappling.

I think my ideal martial art would be a combination of Judo, Aikido, and Muay Thai or Boxing, it seems like all ranges and scenerios would be covered by that.

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 12:50 PM
Just for future reference guys, posting threads like "Tales of Judo Sparring Aikidoists" is a sure way to get a flame war started.

Just think of it like this, I am government worker so I basically sit around all day and do nothing. So I surf the internet endlessly on the topic that interests me the most, Judo. Normally I am at peace with the universe hanging out over at judoinfo.com until I decide to take a glimpse of what is going on at other martial arts forums.

I then read things like "judo is just a sport," "Judo is not an effective martial art," "I tossed around some Judoka today" etc. and then it is game on. What do you expect to happen when you start subjects like this?. And then many of you get so upset when I then decide to tell you what I think of Aikido.

Don't throw chum in the water if you don't want to attract sharks, this time you ony attracted a relatively harmless medium sized reef shark but you never know what will show up next time. :)

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 12:53 PM
Just kdding about the shark analogy , it just sounded so good to say "don't throw chum in the water" :)

Kevin Leavitt
06-08-2005, 12:56 PM
I tend to agree with you. I probably already mentioned this, but this is close to what the Army has based our modern combatives program on. We start out with ground fighting skills, (BJJ), moving out to mid range, striking arts of Muay Thai and American Boxing, Weapons...essentially the Dog Brothers.

I find AIkido to be an asset, but to be quite honest, with the full speeds we are working at, you pretty much blow right through the mid range that aikido works so well in....that is unless you have weapons, or the threat of weapons. Frankly It is probably my lack of experience in aikido at combat speeds is why it doesn't work for me, but then I think that is the point Michael is trying to make. It is something that I am working through..I'll get back to you in about 5 years!

While we do have decent basic takedowns, I think judo is probably a little better than aikido from a tactical standpoint. I find myself wishing I had more skills in this area.

I must admit, I was very, very skeptical about the program when I first saw it....I really had issue with the base in groundfighting. After working with it for the last year though, I am sold on it as a methodology. Still don't agree with the "go to the ground mentality", but you have to start somewhere learning and it provides a solid base to build up from...literally.

The programs motto is the "winner of the fight is the guy whose buddy shows up first with a gun." I think this puts combat and self defense in the proper perspective. So, for at least the army, groundfighting is about surviving long enough to get help. (you are never alone in combat!).

We are not about training people to be good hand to hand fighters, but to be good warriors...that is the key. I think this is the key to all martial arts and what I like about them the most. Good hard training, and proper training builds character and confidence. It's not the technical skills necessarily.

What is amazing is that I have not seen a faster, more efficient way of turning out competent fighters in a minimum amount of time. It builds muscle memory and skill very, very quickly.

Be careful though not to compare this model's objectives against aikido. While they have many similar goals, I do not think they are aligned. Army Combatives is about building warriors and skills to survive in combat. Aikido is about building the warrior spirit and becoming a better person...through learning about options to resolve conflict, it gives you choices. A slight variance, but an important one when you are talking endstate of your training.

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 01:02 PM
find AIkido to be an asset, but to be quite honest, with the full speeds we are working at, you pretty much blow right through the mid range that aikido works so well in....that is unless you have weapons, or the threat of weapons. Frankly It is probably my lack of experience in aikido at combat speeds is why it doesn't work for me, but then I think that is the point Michael is trying to make

Yep, exactly my point. As an Aikidoka you have just a fraction of an instant to make your move or the grappler will be all over you.

Kevin Leavitt
06-08-2005, 01:24 PM
Yep, exactly my point. As an Aikidoka you have just a fraction of an instant to make your move or the grappler will be all over you.

Which is why you want to study aikido correctly...to ensure that you have the proper skills to prevent this from happening! :) correctly is slowly and methodically until you can do it full speed, reading your opponents intention through understanding him from the "inside" so you can move and be proactive BEFORE he moves! That could take years of training, and IMHO, a worthwile, long term goal!

Of course, some of us can't afford to wait that long, so we have to learn for other ways to compensate for our mistakes with those "heathen" arts of grappling! :)

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 01:34 PM
yes exactly, I don't want to wait 20 years before I can use what I am practicing effectively. I see people like Jim practice Aikido and I have no doubt he could use it effectively.

rob_liberti
06-08-2005, 02:05 PM
Ron,

When the boxer is advancing at you, you start making more and more space by lowering your stance more and more. When he follows lower and lower, you throw a lot jab and then clobber him with a hey-maker (we call it yokomenuchi). That's what some boxers do too.

I've seen plenty of very effective people come to aikido class, learn to relax more thoroughly, and get REALLY good. I know a few guys who fought many fights in kiokushin (sp?!) who started aikido and said - "I really wish I had learned aikido first!". I don't plan to be in much combat, and hopefully I have 20+ years to work on things, so that's my choice. You can have yours. My opinion is that the average Judo guy is probably better off maritally than the average aikido guy. All of my best Judo friends have toruble with their knees as they got older. I admit that some of my aikido friends have knee troubles too, but certainly not as many - in my circles anyway.

Rob

Kevin Leavitt
06-08-2005, 02:22 PM
Man Aikido kills my lower back! BJJ kills my groin and hips! Muay Thai hurts my legs, arms, and face! :) (whine mode off) Knees are good to go!

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 02:27 PM
I was always alot more sore after a hard Aikido practice than Judo because those mats were so friggin hard. We have a spring loaded gymnastics mat in Judo, very nice!

Ron Tisdale
06-08-2005, 02:30 PM
See that! Judo is for wimps! :)

Ron (sorry, that just slipped out...)

ps man, I hope i don't have to pay for that!

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 02:43 PM
:) I am not sure how long I would last in Judo if I had to practice it on those tatami mats put right over a concrete slab.

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 02:56 PM
Don't throw chum in the water if you don't want to attract sharks, this time you ony attracted a relatively harmless medium sized reef shark but you never know what will show up next time.

See I warned you but I guess it is too late

Shark Attack -- Off New Jersey!
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050608/ap_on_re_us/surfer_bitten_1

rob_liberti
06-08-2005, 04:20 PM
Michael Neal,

I just re-read the entire thread, and I see a few things that seem to need to be said:
1) I think you are wrong in that you are upset about stories from aikido people picking on Judo, and we'll I just looked for it and didn't see it AND the almost every person who had a victory story practiced aikido with some competitive element except Craig Hocker. He probably used his body better than the guy he was training against, and that's probably his specialty.

2) I think you got a bit of a bum rap. It seems clear to me that you are trying to argue what you consider to be an obsurdity, and people are mis-percieving that as trolling. I don't think you are trolling, but I think what I mentioned in point 1 worked against you in many people's eyes.

3) I think you are right about using techniques in a judo class that people are not used to/expecting. That's an unfair advantage. If it happens by accident then fine. If it happens on purpose, well that's disrespectful and rude. Like-wise, if you show up to my aikido dojo and suprise a beginner by throwing them to the floor and choking them out, you will most-likely get kicked in the face by any of the sempai near you, while the others who are further away will be grabbing their bokken. I totally see your point in the reverse.

Bottom line, it makes sense to me that people who practice competing will be better at it than people who do not. Judo is wonderful and so is aikido. As far as I'm concerned, you are welcome to stay even after people stop posting about their aikido experience against judo people.

Rob

L. Camejo
06-08-2005, 04:30 PM
Interesting comments.

Y'know the more I hear folks here talk about how sad their Aikido skill is (and by extension Aikido, whether it be explicitly or implicitly stated), how many years it takes to get martially effective at it and the gross misinformation regarding certain technical aspects, I start to wonder whether or not I am doing the same Aikido or something else entirely that just happens to share the name with what some of you folks are talking about.

I guess there is a point to that "Culture of Martial Mediocrity" thread after all.;)
As an Aikidoka you have just a fraction of an instant to make your move or the grappler will be all over you.
Imho this sort of Aikidoka is nuts to be facing a grappler since he obviously has no idea what he is doing and how Aikido operates as a "martial' art.

Gives a good gauge as to the impressions out there in "Aikido" world though.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

rob_liberti
06-08-2005, 05:01 PM
I guess another point is that the people I know that I think are martially effective have been training a good 20, 25+ years in their hard style arts too. Are we talking about the same level of "effective"?! (Compared to what I think is "effective", I'd say my aikido skill is "sad".) If someone with 2 years of training just about any martial art can come whoop me in a fight, I think they could have probably whooped me regardless of their 2 years of training! I just went to Jason Delucia sensei's dojo and did about an hour of randori practice and I was able to hold my own with the people who only had a _short_ time in and I never practice that way - big deal. (By the way, I have nothing but respect for that kind of practice. I also think there are important things that *can* be learned in the cooperative model that you would have a hell of a time working on in a purely competitive model. I can't judge them on this yet, because I only saw one class.)

Rob

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 07:39 PM
1) I think you are wrong in that you are upset about stories from aikido people picking on Judo, and we'll I just looked for it and didn't see it AND the almost every person who had a victory story practiced aikido with some competitive element except Craig Hocker. He probably used his body better than the guy he was training against, and that's probably his specialty.

I bet you that if I started a thread on judoinfo.com about how I went to a few random Aikido dojos and tossed some Aikidoka around using techniques they were not trained in etc. I would get flamed by every Aikidoka around. It appears like bragging and it would a jerkish thing to do.

I also am basing my observations on other threads that I have read here on Aikiweb for several years, not just this one. This is not the first debate here we have had on Aikido vs. Judo. I have seen so many comments like "Judo is just a sport ... yada yada yada " that it naturally irritates me. Just like If I posted saying something like "Aikido is just spiritual yoga," that would irritate many Aikidoka. The fact is Aikidoka constantly take swipes at Judo, but when the tables are turned the same Aikidoka have a fit. I remember my Aikido instructor take some swipes at Judo a few times as well.

Thats what I mean by not throwing chum in the water if you don't want some sharks to stop by.

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 07:48 PM
Rob, I agree with you that cooperative practice is important, we do alot of it in Judo as well. It is how you build your skills so you can then use it in randori. Randori is only on piece of the puzzle. But in my view it is a very important piece.

PeterR
06-08-2005, 07:56 PM
I bet you that if I started a thread on judoinfo.com about how I went to a few random Aikido dojos and tossed some Aikidoka around using techniques they were not trained in etc.
I've seen your comments at Judoinfo - you appear to do that quite frequently. I started the thread looking for experiences of people who are primarily Aikidoists cross-training in Judo. Definately not to show Aikido was better than Judo and I would think that most answers reflected that.

Michael Neal
06-08-2005, 08:30 PM
The only comments I have made on judoinfo.com was basically in response to threads here to try and get more Judokas perspective. I remember duplicating this particular discussion there a while ago. I also was involved in an Aikido discussion both here and there regarding Aikidoka claims of taking on 4 or 5 Judoka in randori.

My involvement is almost always in response to some discussion started by an Aikidoka or claims made by them.

Any recent comments I have made that I remember are one thread stating how I got Aikido to work after several years of not using it, a praising of Aikido. And a more recent one where I suggested to someone who inquired about Aikido that it was worthwhile to practice, but that I though Shodokan would be more appropriate choice due to the randori.

In the same thread that I suggested taking Aikido, I also made a joke about Aikido spiritual practice by linking to one of the threads here. You should note that many Aikidoka here on Aikiweb were making fun of the same discussion.

Peter, I see no reason for this to keep going. I think most of us have reached a general consensus and there is no reason to keep arguing. I probably overeacted at first in response to your initial post but some of the stuff that was said afterwards was really insane. I did not even realize your total martial arts experience when first I read your post and knowing what I do now, I completely believe you. In fact, you could probably walk into my Judo dojo and throw me around a few times.


I think there was some misunderstanding going on on both sides and we should just leave it at that.

rob_liberti
06-08-2005, 09:03 PM
I bet you that if I started a thread on judoinfo.com about how I went to a few random Aikido dojos and tossed some Aikidoka around using techniques they were not trained in etc. I would get flamed by every Aikidoka around. It appears like bragging and it would a jerkish thing to do.

Safe bet. That's why I posted my third point, the one about "3) I think you are right about using techniques in a judo class that people are not used to/expecting. That's an unfair advantage. If it happens by accident then fine. If it happens on purpose, well that's disrespectful and rude... " and "I totally see your point"

I guess I was more expecting: that part you just wrote to Peter -
"I probably overeacted at first in response to your initial post" to my comment about the people who commented in this thread were other competitors and not as disrespectful as you seemed to indicate.

I also am basing my observations on other threads that I have read here on Aikiweb for several years, not just this one. This is not the first debate here we have had on Aikido vs. Judo. I have seen so many comments like "Judo is just a sport ... yada yada yada " that it naturally irritates me. Just like If I posted saying something like "Aikido is just spiritual yoga," that would irritate many Aikidoka. The fact is Aikidoka constantly take swipes at Judo, but when the tables are turned the same Aikidoka have a fit. I remember my Aikido instructor take some swipes at Judo a few times as well.

Well, I can see a nerve was touched. To me, when I read someone post "Aikido is just spiritual yoga," I think - oh too bad they don't train the we way we do, and then I try to explain to the person that not all aikido is practiced the same way. If the person just wants to "know what they know" then I give up. It seems like you could do the same with the different factions of Judo. I've seen some really good and really so-so Judo myself.

Oh well. You seem to be at peace now with Peter, and that's fine. I learned a lot lurking in this discussion and I thank you for your contribution and your passion.

Rob

PeterR
06-08-2005, 09:33 PM
My little tiff with Micheal laid aside.


Safe bet. That's why I posted my third point, the one about "3) I think you are right about using techniques in a judo class that people are not used to/expecting. That's an unfair advantage. If it happens by accident then fine. If it happens on purpose, well that's disrespectful and rude... "
Well not really if it is legal.

After my Judo experience I know my strengths and weaknesses derived from my Aikido experience. I know I can shut down most attempts but not all but I am also seriously weak when if comes to offense. I can counter much easier than I can instigate and it is here where I tend to use techniques learned in Aikido the most. As long as those techniques are not outside the acceptable range than a Judoka should be glad they are being used - the whole point of a randori match is to discover a technique that your opponent is not used to or expecting (otherwise he will shut you down). Not rude at all.

I am not that good at either Judo or Aikido and I know it. The thing is though that Judo offers a good counter point to Aikido. In the context of your chosen art it is very easy to become blinded to your own beliefs. Judo guys convinced all Aikido people are wussies and always will be vs Aikidoists looking down on other arts that choose to mix it up. There is a huge technical overlap between the two arts and the training approach of one over the other can only benefit the other. I expect to be dominated in a Judo dojo by those that practice Judo more than I - nature of the beast - but it is interesting analyzing where you do well and where you do not. Still freaked out how I perform on the ground - definately counter to conventional wisdom.

rob_liberti
06-09-2005, 08:29 AM
the whole point of a randori match is to discover a technique that your opponent is not used to or expecting (otherwise he will shut you down). Not rude at all.

Well, that's certainly a fair point for you specific situation, and I didn't intend to criticise your actions. My thoughts were that we were talking about the context of techniques which were outside the acceptable range because he wrote "using techniques they were not trained in etc." I didn't mean to imply you were cheating.

My thoughts on randori were to give you more practice doing known and expected techniques in more and more sophistocated ways given increasing drama (speed, intensity, power of resistance and attempts at reversals, etc.). So the techniques would all by known, but set up differently, and done with less direct arm muscling. That's been my limited experience. No offense intended.

Rob

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 09:51 AM
Well not really if it is legal.

After my Judo experience I know my strengths and weaknesses derived from my Aikido experience. I know I can shut down most attempts but not all but I am also seriously weak when if comes to offense. I can counter much easier than I can instigate and it is here where I tend to use techniques learned in Aikido the most. As long as those techniques are not outside the acceptable range than a Judoka should be glad they are being used - the whole point of a randori match is to discover a technique that your opponent is not used to or expecting (otherwise he will shut you down). Not rude at all.

I guess then it would be fair enough for me to start tossing Aikidoka around with Judo throws because koshinage is a legitimate Aikido technique.

rob_liberti
06-09-2005, 10:55 AM
If you show up to my dojo, and we are doing randori, then by all means, koshi away. People will generally say things like "cool" or "good one". What's your point?

Rob

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 11:18 AM
My point is that there were people criticising me earlier for using Judo throws when I was doing Aikido but they don't seem to have the same problem with Aikidoka using Aikido techniques on Judoka.

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 11:30 AM
What I was irritated about earlier was people going to Judo clubs and putting people in wrist locks and such,. While those technically may be part of the Judo syllabus in the the katas, they are not allowed in Judo randori. It is sort of like doing Judo randori and then kicking someone in the face all of the sudden and then saying that the Judoka you experienced do not know how to deal with strikes.

While on the other hand, all of the people I threw with Judo throws in my Aikido class wanted to mix it up with me. They either began to grapple with me during training or were working with me during open mat period.

Talon
06-09-2005, 11:31 AM
As far as I know koshis are a part of Aikido so you'd be fine there....Michael...

mj
06-09-2005, 11:49 AM
I guess then it would be fair enough for me to start tossing Aikidoka around with Judo throws because koshinage is a legitimate Aikido technique.
Not in Shodokan it's not. :)

It's only in the non-randori ones.

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 12:01 PM
But Paul, there were people who are not fine with it including some members of the Aikido dojo I trained at. They want to paint me as some kind of brute or something.

Here is a quote from Robert Rumpf's (a member of my former Aikido Dojo) Aikiblog. He could not be more wrong about my motivations.


The problem in this discussion (and with Michael and many others) seems to be that they see martial arts as only a chance to match himself up against others. This means that learning is a distant priority at best.

Michael would cross-train not to learn Aikido technique, but to try out his techniques on Aikidoka. Most likely he'd find someone of the level of relative ignorance about Judo where his stuff would actually work and at that point he would 1) feel better about himself 2) convince them to take up Judo. This is all fine and good, but it doesn't help either Michael or that other person to learn Aikido at all.

The interesting part is that in the short term, this goal-oriented learning with respect to fighting won't even detract from his ability to fight. If you focus on one thing, you get better at it, at least to a point. You get better at it until the problems that are intrinsic to you destroy your ability to push forward (physical limitations, mental limitations, old age, etc.). At this point, you've hit an impasse.

Not only have you hit an impasse, but because you have walked so far down what is fundamentally an easy path (one so suited to your nature and with so little external challenges in terms of paradigm), the idea of backtracking to the beginning and taking a more difficult rode is unappealing and abhorrent, if it the thought even occurs.

This one-sidedness is the reason that I believe caused O'Sensei to ban competition. When you compete, you come to focus your practice around winning within those rules. After all, competition is very compelling and fun. Its hard to avoid the focus on making your technique work well in competition.

The thing is, I never threw Robert with a Judo throw, only people who wanted to mix it up and grapple with me or try out new things so I really do not know where he is coming from.

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 12:03 PM
Not in Shodokan it's not. :)

It's only in the non-randori ones.

So koshinage is not legal in Shodokan randori?

mj
06-09-2005, 12:09 PM
Nope - it is classed as Judo afaik.

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 12:14 PM
Well that rules out Shodokan for me then, I think my Aikido options have completely run out.

mj
06-09-2005, 12:21 PM
hah!

No hip throws for us because it would just turn into a Judo match...think about it. :D

We do get face contact, though.

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 12:29 PM
Its funny Mark, for some unknown reason I have dreams about Aikido all of time and as you all know by now I can not seem to keep myself away from discussions about it. But I at the same time I hate so much about it. It is very puzzling to me, logically I should not have this much interest in something I don't seem to have an interest in practicing.

mj
06-09-2005, 12:39 PM
Well I came from Judo and it took me over 3 years to adjust, then another 3 years to start learning - and I have enjoyed the last (my 7th) year.

rob_liberti
06-09-2005, 12:43 PM
I pretty much agree with the third paragraph that you quoted from Robert Rumpf's blog - if you are considering "all competition all the time". What I learned here on aikiweb was that the schools that taught competition were overall cooperative in nature and probably compete in a similar way (only with much more "defined" rules) as I do with my sempai, and dohai, and the rare kohai - to improve and not so much to "win". Once "winning" becomes the primary focus over learning and helpnig your partner improve as well, I'm pretty much against competition for the exact reasons as described in that third paragraph. I will certainly take you at your word that you are not all about winning no matter the cost. It erally does seem like you should go try Jason Delucia sensei's dojo. It is excellent, and I think they will not have any problem with your trying to get koshinage in randori.

Rob

Budd
06-09-2005, 12:47 PM
Michael, just my opinion, but I think you should go find some place to train in aikido where you can find some other people to roll and bang with, in addition to practicing techniques via a kata paradigm (if I had found a judo school where these things were taught in balance, I might still be doing judo). I know it's presumptious of me, but the amount of time I read your posts on aikido topics on this board and others, it sure seems like you miss it.

That said, I'm taking the popular road of saying that I think both randori and kata training are of merit and getting to have a balance of shiai and kata is, I think, an extremely important piece of any budoka's development -- I also know that I'm not experienced enough to know what that balance is -- just what I like being able to do. I like to be able to put the pads on and bang with the strikers. I like rolling with the grapplers. It's fun to spar with MMA rules.

I think the same level of relaxed intent and response is required to function within each paradigm -- even if the conventions and goals for each vary. I also disagree with the notion that just because each is competitive that it somehow limits it to only be about winning. I train in these environments because it teaches me more about myself and the kind of options I have in different physical and emotional situations (just like aikido!).

Having said that, I also like training in a system that has an overriding philosophy (options for blending and redirection of conflict) with which I can greatly relate on a personal level. I enjoy the variety of techniques and levels of sophistication required to implement them (really layered onion sums it up quite well). I am challenged to work on the precise movements and mind-body coordination required to make these techniques work with minimal effort against varying degrees of resistance and intent. I greatly enjoy my training partners, deeply respect and admire my instructors and love the facility at which I train.

Getting to randori and shiai with others under different conditions is fun, great exercise, occaisionally humbling and always educational. They're like good friends that I can always visit and pick up where I left off. Aikido has grown to have a much more special place for me though, like a close relation that is at times infuriating and vexing, but to whom I always feel a deep connection.

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 12:50 PM
When I am at a competition I do everything that it takes to win, when I am training I do everything it takes to be a better Judoka. The two goals can coexist.

rob_liberti
06-09-2005, 12:53 PM
When I am at a competition I do everything that it takes to win, when I am training I do everything it takes to be a better Judoka. The two goals can coexist.

Yes, of course they can - but not in the "all competition all the time" idea which I believe you are not in.

Peace - Rob

Robert Rumpf
06-09-2005, 04:43 PM
To be honest it would not be a good idea for me to practice in a non-competitive Aikido dojo because I am afraid of hurting people. If I failed an Aikido technique during practice I would move right into a Judo technique just to keep my flow going and not to get in a habit of stopping when things fail, another bad habit I saw in Aikido by the way. I think alot of Aikidoka are not prepared to take ukemi from many Judo throws and I would also likley piss off the instructor by not using pure Aikido all the time.

That rant was actually inspired by this post of yours on the thread "I think I'm done with Aikido," and not by this discussion. It was a somewhat different context. I had thought that the context was obvious to someone who had read the whole entry, as it started with a quote from that thread.

The thing is, I never threw Robert with a Judo throw, only people who wanted to mix it up and grapple with me or try out new things so I really do not know where he is coming from.

This why I used the word "would" to indicate the statement as being speculative, as opposed to a statement in the past tense that would actually indicate an action that had occurred.

I was speculating about your future behavior, as indicated by your statement shown above. My speculation was tempered by my experiences with others who have mixed martial arts experiences, but I think not unreasonable considering the evidence provided.

This discussion was obviously not something I felt like getting into on a thread, as it was too personal of a point and requires a lot of context, so I kept it relatively to myself. I shall now keep it even further to myself.

Rob

L. Camejo
06-09-2005, 04:48 PM
Well that rules out Shodokan for me then, I think my Aikido options have completely run out.
So you were planning on using Judo throws in Shodokan randori Michael? Interesting.

I guess you don't really want to learn Aikido but just compete and hope to show how Judo is better. Or am I mistaken?
LC:ai::ki:

mj
06-09-2005, 05:38 PM
Sumi-otoshi is a Judo throw and is part of Shodokan (I have translated it into a hikikome-otoshi movement that works ((yes I said a sumi-otoshi that works)) in randori). Yoko-wakare could be seen as Aiki-like. Mae-otoshi could can be seen as a reverse ippon seoinage. Shomen-ate is o-uchi-gari. Gedan-ate is tani-otoshi. Drop knee seionage where you push the arm instead of pulling it because they don't grab. O-goshi is as much about rotation and and connection as it is about the hip. Throwing techniques are different branches on different trees in the same forest.

There is a lot you could bring to Aikido Michael and there is a lot Aikido can do for you, as dumb as it sounds.

But Aikido is not Judo, they are not twins. Only people who had studied for a long time would be able to appreciate the similarities and the differences.

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 06:40 PM
I know Aikido and Judo are not the same but they do share alot of techniques as you mentioned, but I guess if I used them I would be accused by people like Larry of trying to prove Judo was better. You just can't win no matter what you do, there are just too many people in Aikido that are intimidated by Judo I guess. I mean Larry had no problems using Aikido techniques against Judoka when it suited him to do so, but I guess that is OK though. :)

mj
06-09-2005, 07:02 PM
Personally I don't think that there is any doubt that Judo aquits itself much better than Aikido....look at MMA, Pride, UFC etc Judo groundwork is the new Bruce Lee.

Before that, Judo was the one getting abuse from the percussion based arts.

Zato Ichi
06-09-2005, 07:31 PM
... there are just too many people in Aikido that are intimidated by Judo I guess.
In your case, I suspect reverse.

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 08:01 PM
In your case, I suspect reverse.

Not in the least bit, I am perfectly willing to do randori using as many techniques as possible, including both Aikido and Judo techniques.

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 08:09 PM
I think the aiki-fruities must be happy, they are just sitting back and watching the two groups that they despise the most and that should have the most in common rip into each other, Shodokan Aikido and Judo.

It seems almost everyone I have argued with is a member of Shodokan Aikido, I guess it is the competitive spirit.

PeterR
06-09-2005, 08:41 PM
And the cool thing is Hori-san is originally a Judo guy.

Rob no offense - Micheal I was using perfectly legal Judo randori techniques in Judo randori. My timing was unusual but finding that hook is what you are supposed to do in Judo. Sorry you feel that the lack of Koshinage tosses Shodokan Aikido out the window for you but ... well maybe its time to once again re-visit some of Tomiki's thinking.

Kenji Tomiki was one of Kano's direct students as he was of Ueshiba M. I think its fair to say he was well versed in both Judo and Aikido and the strengths and weaknesses of both. And here is the crux - he developed Shodokan Aikido randori not just because Aikido was missing a Judo randori element but also because Judo was missing atemi waza and a good chunk of useful kansetsu waza from its randori. The design of Shodokan randori is to emphasize the waza not found in Judo randori and a distance more conducive to the Aiki techniques.

The rules of Shodokan randori/shiai are designed with the above in mind. If you wish to become a more all round fighter Tomiki insisted you should do both and a couple of other things besides. You will find at Shodokan Honbu (current and historically) a large number of people that either came from a Judo background (Olympic level/prefectural champion) or cross-train. Because of this way of thinking Tomiki was pretty clear that when you train Judo do Judo, when you train Aikido do Aikido. That is not to say that when in a playful randori move the occasional Judo specific move is not tossed in there. I don't think anyone would have a problem with a Koshinage in randori - shiai is another matter. By the way Shodokan Aikido shiai does not have weight classes - another reason certain Judo techniques are not included.

FYI Yoseikan Budo has a randori style which does not make the distinction between Judo and Aikido randori.

Now once again - I did not enter a Judo dojo to demonstrate the superiority of Aikido technique - I just wanted to up my randori time with the closest thing to Shodokan Aikido randori I could find. As a bonus I am learning some neat tricks and insights into my own Aikido. Perhaps Michael that's were you are going wrong.

Michael Neal
06-09-2005, 08:57 PM
Peter, the way you explain it it sounds very interesting and I wish there was a Shodokan dojo nearby. I was just reacting to those here that seemed offended at the idea of me using koshinage during regular randori. It just seems to me something that should be welcomed in order to develop all around good self defense skills.

I understand it would not be constructive to use Judo throws all the time at the expense of learning Aikido, it would just be a good element to mix in on occasion. For example: it would be interesting to practice doing seionage against a strike in a live situation since it seems like a great throw for that situation.

Talon
06-09-2005, 10:59 PM
Well Michael I'm sure that you can find an Aikido dojo that allows koshis in randori practice. I'm still quite new to aikido (only 3 years) and we do not yet do 100% resitance randori but during cooperative/semi cooperative randori that we do, koshis and any other tequniques are allowed. I'm told that once we get our techniques profficient enough and we can controll the technique such that we do not hurt eachother we will do resitive randori. The way things go now our sensei sometimes shouts "NO! or STOP" because we sometimes go too hard and he thinks someone will end up with a broken arm/wrist.

Michael, I'm sure you can find an Aikido dojo that would satisfy your desire for realistic training. I'm not sure how most of the dojo's practice, but we train pretty hard and from what I hear things will only get harder and more realistic in the years to come. I for one am looking forward to this since I belive a martial art should be "martial" and so does my sensei. We have people watching (thinking of joining) and some join but some say that they think it may be too ruff for them. Believe it or not but there are Aikido dojos out there that are martial and strive for realism.

I hope you can find one and train hard and maybe you'll change your opinions of Aikido's effectivenes.

Happy training,

Paul

xuzen
06-09-2005, 11:42 PM
About 2 years ago, my sensei sensed something was wrong with our aikido practice. We were doing the traditional Yoshinkan syllabus and we fairly good with the kata/waza but suck totally with randori / jiyu waza or resistant training. So he revamped the syllabus with very heavy emphasis on free sparring or jiyu waza. It took us a short while to adjust but we managed it well eventually.

Pro:
1) Newbies and children students learn ukemi much faster than traditional route.
2) One very quickly find out what works best for oneself and apply it to their best abilities during randori session
3) Randori is arguably as close to as possible to a real fight in a dojo setting... so this method of training IMO is a better way of mentally and physically preparing one for street encounter should the need arises than the traditional way.

Con:
1) As randori progress, I do see that most students tend to repeat their favourite techniques most of the time while ignoring the whole syllabus. Sometimes from the perspective of preserving the art, I feel that we may be losing some of it.
2) Randori is chaotic and dynamic... sometimes students use muscle to force a technique through. It still work though wrt face planting uke onto the mat. But again, from the perspective of preserving the art, I feel students may shortchange themselves wrt maintaining the aiki principles.

Just my rant people. I have done the traditional waza method and currently very involved with the jiyu waza/randori type of training and I can see the pros and cons from two side of the coin. I am not sure if the Cons are applicable to the Judo people, but the cons are something that is on my mind lately. Thoughts anyone?

Boon.

Red Beetle
06-10-2005, 12:50 AM
but also because Judo was missing atemi waza

Austin Powers demonstrated over and over again that Judo is not missing Atemi-waza.
I quote: "Judo Chop!"

Red Beetle

batemanb
06-10-2005, 02:12 AM
I think the aiki-fruities must be happy, they are just sitting back and watching the two groups that they despise the most and that should have the most in common rip into each other, Shodokan Aikido and Judo.

It seems almost everyone I have argued with is a member of Shodokan Aikido, I guess it is the competitive spirit.


Where'd you get the idea us aiki fruities despise Shodokan Aikido and Judo?

wendyrowe
06-10-2005, 06:08 AM
... So he revamped the syllabus with very heavy emphasis on free sparring or jiyu waza. It took us a short while to adjust but we managed it well eventually...
...I have done the traditional waza method and currently very involved with the jiyu waza/randori type of training and I can see the pros and cons from two side of the coin...
I think both traditional waza and randori are essential to having effective aikido (that's effective and that's aikido). I agree with your pros and your cons.

You can't really learn the techniques unless you do traditional waza -- over and over and over -- but you can't REALLY know them unless you can apply them on the fly and learn how you need to adjust your performance of them to fit the circumstances (such as against a resistant uke countering your every move). We also practice our traditional waza with increasing resistance as we practice and improve -- first dozens of times are very cooperative, then there's slight resistance, then more, etc.

You've absolutely right that when I'm doing randori I stick to the techniques I'm most comfortable with -- that's human nature -- so at times Sensei limits our techniques in randori to the set he wants us to practice. That slows things down a bit since both people are using less familiar techniques, but it's a good bridge between traditional waza and full-out randori.

rob_liberti
06-10-2005, 08:04 AM
Hi Wendy,

I agree wth everything you just said. My only concern in geneal with this kind of approach is the question of to what level of sophistocation are the techniques practiced prior to "testing" them out. It's something to always consider. A certain amount of depth can be reached in primarily competitive practice. I believe that beyond that point, can only be reached by going back to cooperative practice - and then by all means continue to test new degrees of depth out in competitive practice. I totally agree that going back and forth between the two is the way to then develop the ability under more and more pressure.

Rob

Michael Neal
06-10-2005, 08:07 AM
There is nothing wrong with getting comfortable with a set of techniques that work the best for you, because that is what you will use to defend yourself. There is no way you are going to be able to master all the various techniques in Aikdio and be able to use them all at will.

In Judo we learn all the techniques over time and need to demonstrate them for promotion but we are encouraged to develop a set of techniques that work best for you as an individual.

wendyrowe
06-10-2005, 08:16 AM
Hi Wendy,

I agree wth everything you just said. My only concern in geneal with this kind of approach is the question of to what level of sophistocation are the techniques practiced prior to "testing" them out. It's something to always consider. A certain amount of depth can be reached in primarily competitive practice. I believe that beyond that point, can only be reached by going back to cooperative practice - and then by all means continue to test new degrees of depth out in competitive practice. I totally agree that going back and forth between the two is the way to then develop the ability under more and more pressure.

Rob
Oh, absolutely. You don't give up on the cooperative model because you've "graduated" to the competitive model. You always need to go back to working cooperatively to improve the weaknesses you uncovered in competitive practice, and just because there's always something you can improve by deliberate practice -- body mechanics, trying out slight variations on the attack, more carefully considering the subtleties of the technique, etc. That goes for me in my aikido, karate, jujitsu and tai chi as well as music and probably everything else I do, so I assume it holds as well for judo. Any judoka out there want to chime in?

Michael Neal
06-10-2005, 08:20 AM
yes, we sometimes spend more time doing cooperative practice and drills than randori, it is all important.

rob_liberti
06-10-2005, 08:28 AM
I keep hearing things like if you really get any one technique in aikido you understand all of them. As far as having an integrated mind, I can see that to a degree. But, I'm not going to pretend that I really get any of the techniques, especially since I believe that O-sensei was saying something about how he was still thinking about ikkyo when he died...

Rob

L. Camejo
06-10-2005, 08:30 AM
I know Aikido and Judo are not the same but they do share alot of techniques as you mentioned, but I guess if I used them I would be accused by people like Larry of trying to prove Judo was better.
I didn't accuse you, I asked if that were the case or if I were wrong. English Michael, English.:)

You just can't win no matter what you do, there are just too many people in Aikido that are intimidated by Judo I guess.
Yeah I can agree with that. But then they also tend to be the folks who don't train in martially effective Aikido either and as a result have little faith in its abilities.

I mean Larry had no problems using Aikido techniques against Judoka when it suited him to do so, but I guess that is OK though. :)
It appears that misquoting people is a great skill of yours.

In the past I indicated 2 situations where I sparred Judoka. One was after a TKD tournament and was open season and anything goes so he got put down quickly (and if I do say so, cleanly) by a kotegaeshi after trying to grab something (of course I suckered him into it and left my arm deliberately dangling out there, just within his grabbing range, but well within my kuzushi range);).

The second situation was in a Judo dojo where I tried to do O-Goshi but since at that time (pre-Jujutsu training) all my Judo waza pretty much sucked, my attempted O-goshi turned into an outward turning, one handed Uki Otoshi and down went the Judoka. Other than that, keeping arms and back straight and weight low during stand up randori (a la tegatana and kuzushi drills in Aikido) kept things at a stalemate.

So it's not like I'm storming Judo dojos and using Aiki waza to beat up on beginners. I'm going there to learn things in an area my Aikido does not address well. Before my Jujutsu training I'd get my butt handed to me about 90% of the time in Judo or BJJ practice and it was cool cuz I wanted to get beat up to learn. Not anymore though, but now I use Ju waza effectively and can avoid slipping into Aiki waza when I'm in Judo.

The only reason the Aiki waza slipped in is because of what MJ said above about the techniques being branches on the same tree and it was just natural for me, but not a deliberate act. I don't need to go into a Judo dojo to prove my Aiki waza works. But it's good to silence the critics every now and then.:D

As far as general training goes, I think there should be an equal balance between forms and randori training since it can be very easy to modify the basic form when under the pressures of randori and if things are not checked back against a "correct forms" template one's waza can suffer greatly over time. Randori should help one develop spontaneous application of technique and counters but should also challenge one to maintain the proper form so that the quality of the technique does not suffer when met with a dynamic situation, since it is the use of correct form that makes it effective.

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Michael Neal
06-10-2005, 10:47 AM
OK lets just bury the hatchet, this topic is hurting my brain every time I look at it now.

I think we probably both agree on more things than we disagree on, so we should just focus on what we have in common and work from there.

guest89893
06-10-2005, 12:13 PM
I keep hearing things like if you really get any one technique in aikido you understand all of them. As far as having an integrated mind, I can see that to a degree. Rob

Funny thing Rob, I always use to hear that in Judo.
I have not participated in this -since I started Aikido as a Judoka/jujitsuka. I have enjoyed the thread stories from Peter and others. I believe one should have a healthy respect for all good MA, and Judo does offer the opportunity to train in a different perspective(given as in any MA style a set of rules for engaement). I have been taught by Judoka incorperating Aikido ideas into their Judo, and Aikidoka incorperating Judo into their Aikido. The end result for both is better Martial Artists who continue to learn and grow (may I always be in that group).
Gene