small circle?

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[daniel chong]

Hello,
I was wondering if anyone out there has any experience with small circle jujitsu. I am curious as to its effectiveness, quality and relation, if any to aikido, as well as any other info anyone can provide.
Thanks.

[SeiserL]

I have the Wally Jay videos and was impressed by the joint/finger locks. He is very well respected. I see some similiarities in concepts but know of no formal direct relationship with Aikido. His techniques have added some interesting variations to my Aikido practice.

Keep the mind open. Now, get back to training.

[Jeff Stallard]

My sensei has studied with Wally Jay sensei, but we haven't really done any of it in class. He describes it as aikido you can do in a phonebooth.

[Lan Powers]

Saw a video clip on the tube of Sensei Jay a LOOOOOONG time ago. Looks cool, seems pretty similar from what I can recall. Wish I could find some of his stuff.
Lan

[Mark Balogh]

I trained on a Leon Jay course once (Master Wally's son). He really knew his stuff, the system is very complete and in depth. It also has an artistic feel about it. As modern ju jitsu goes, they are good, no doubt about it. :)

[Jorx]

I have heard that Wally Jay's small circle jiu-jitsu is about as applicable as George Dillman's Ryukyu Kempo...

Just what I've heard... never practiced nor seen the small-circle thing...

[Mark Balogh]

I have heard people say that about small circles, but in my experience you could say that about 90% of Aikido out there as well!!! :D

Why is there a lot of talk slating Dillman on these forums? He has definitely done a lot to open the eyes of martial artists to kyusho, his knock stuff is 100% real. My previous instructor learn't loads from him. :)

[daniel chong]

I have heard that Wally Jay's small circle jiu-jitsu is about as applicable as George Dillman's Ryukyu Kempo...

Just what I've heard... never practiced nor seen the small-circle thing...

Could you please elaborate? I am not familiar with George Dillman's technique, except for the fact that it is incorporated into small circle training. I also know nothing about its effectiveness or lack thereof.

[Jorx]

I have heard people say that about small circles, but in my experience you could say that about 90% of Aikido out there as well!!! :D

Why is there a lot of talk slating Dillman on these forums? He has definitely done a lot to open the eyes of martial artists to kyusho, his knock stuff is 100% real. My previous instructor learn't loads from him. :)

Because most of his stuff has proven not to work in actual combat and hell even on some people standing and waiting to be hit and he is lying about his accomplishments etc?

His knock stuff is 100% hitting the carotid sinus which is not mystical as he claims it nor does it require another "points" to be "opnened" before...

I can't imagine what your previous instructor learned from him... One thing I have learned is that there is an ultimate defence to his ultimate pressure points: don't believe in they work and they won't work on you.

[bob_stra]

...and just to stir the pot, I'm fairly sure wally Jay was a high ranking judoka before he started teaching small circle.

*ducks*

Some notable links

http://www.danzan.com/HTML/PEOPLE/wally.html

"...Jay began his study of Danzan-Ryu Jujutsu under Juan Gomez, one of the top instructors under the founder Henry Seishiro Okazaki..."

http://www.usadojo.com/biojay.htm

10th Degree Black Belt in Jujitsu
6th Degree Black Belt in Judo
Founder and Grandmaster of Jujitsu America
Founder and Grandmaster of Small Circle JujitsuTM International

http://tinyurl.com/2lc7l

Notice the book review.

[Ian Williams]

Because most of his stuff has proven not to work in actual combat


I'm always amused to read generalisations like this ...


Which part of his "stuff" doesn't work? against whom? in what circumstance?

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

Uh, is it wrong of me to (as a knee-jerk reaction) balk at those qualifications? 10th dan jujitsu? And he managed to find time to become 6th dan judo as well? And start his own style(s)? I'm about as skeptical as I am of the guy who's "10th Dan Fo-ni-ryu Ninjutsu."

[ian]

His knock stuff is 100% hitting the carotid sinus which is not mystical as he claims it nor does it require another "points" to be "opnened" before...

Dillman didn't invent the pressure point strikes (locations or application). These are intinsic to most chinese and japanese martial arts, including aikido. Knock-outs can be done with many areas of the body other than the carotid sinus. For example, examine ikkyo - pericardium 6 (wrist) and just above back of elbow; wrist and kaiten-nage (back of head). Of course some are to the carotid sinus e.g. shiho-nage; pericardium 6 (wrist) and carotid sinus. Many of the aikido techniques also expose the gall bladder meridian.

I know some of this stuff is hard to believe, and can be difficult to strike in fast paced combat, but this stuff was certainly used in real life and death fights in the past. Ueshiba is known to have employed many pressure point strikes for knock-outs (and other injuries!). Also you'll often see Ueshiba on video using single knuckles in atemi. Just because we don't focus on pressure point strikes much in aikido, doesn't mean that they aren't instrinsic within it.

P.S. I agree it is not 'mystical', but the meridian concepts are an easy model for explaining the results, even if it does not relate well to science; just like ki.

[bob_stra]

Uh, is it wrong of me to (as a knee-jerk reaction) balk at those qualifications? 10th dan jujitsu? And he managed to find time to become 6th dan judo as well? And start his own style(s)? I'm about as skeptical as I am of the guy who's "10th Dan Fo-ni-ryu Ninjutsu."


Dunno what it says about his fighting prowess. Hell, the man is a smidgen shy of a 90 years old.

Having said that, back in the olden days(tm), folks would train judo and jujitsu side by side. IIRC judo was the "sporting" aspect of JJJ.

The kodokan was quite strict back then, so that advancements beyond a certain dan grade meant studying in japan. Some folks decided against this, forming their own jujitsu organization ... etc etc etc.. you know how this story goes.

IIRC - maybe I got it wrong.

Anyway, some of the big names in judo has spoken highly of Wally. That's gotta account for something.

*shrugs*

Take it all with a grain of salt.

[Mark Balogh]

Because most of his stuff has proven not to work in actual combat and hell even on some people standing and waiting to be hit and he is lying about his accomplishments etc?

His knock stuff is 100% hitting the carotid sinus which is not mystical as he claims it nor does it require another "points" to be "opnened" before...

I can't imagine what your previous instructor learned from him... One thing I have learned is that there is an ultimate defence to his ultimate pressure points: don't believe in they work and they won't work on you.

It's obvious from this post you know nothing about the subject and have little or no experience of knock out training. Other posters have pointed this out so I'll just say that I've seen it done on many areas of the body to REAL HARDNUTS and they go down like a sack of spuds. I have no doubt my previous instructor could nail someone in a fight with it (but this was probably due to decades of tournament experience!!!). If you want to know more, go and learn from someone, there are plenty of people out there. :)

[Mike Pabst]

Hello,
I was wondering if anyone out there has any experience with small circle jujitsu. I am curious as to its effectiveness, quality and relation, if any to aikido, as well as any other info anyone can provide.
Thanks.

Hello,

I have been honored to train with Wally Jay many times in my past and his techniquers are very useful to any serious martial artist. The problem for most people is the same for all martial arts as best as I can tell. I see it and I feel it but, how do I get the attacker in position so I can actually use the technique. And, as always... practice, practice, practice. Sounds a little like Aikido.

I love it all. Wally Jay has attributed much of his success with developing Small Circle Ju Jitsu to his background in Judo. He's trained with everyone imagineable and he's never held back sharing. It's a new age with newer people and I've not met his son Leon as of yet but, I'll bet it's still worth your time to find out more about Small Circle Ju Jitsu.

Best Wishes,

Mike Pabst
Dojo Cho
Circle Of Harmony

[Edwin Neal]

i respect Wally Jay, but Dillman is a hoax... i have met him, stood in front of him and he did nothing except talk, i even asked for a demonstration and got nothing... his kyushu jitsu is a crock... totally bull... doesn't work period... his schools are more like a cult...

[aikidoc]

A medical doctor wrote a book explaining how the knock outs work using modern medicine. Most are caused by a vaso-vagal faint-ie., a rapid drop in blood pressure. The word knock out to me is somewhat of a misnomer anyway. Generally you don't go totally out but are "buzzed" -like headed and uncoordinated. I personally have been buzzed and not by hard strikes. I was a non believer and the class instructor used me as an example-he hit me pretty hard but I did not feel the same effect (other than pain) as I did when a friend hit the same points with less force. It took me a bit to clear my head.

The problem I see with the pressure point strikes, which I pointed out in my Black Belt magazine article on atemi-waza in aikido, is that they do not seem to work on everyone. So setting out to rely on a knock out is unrealistic and dangerous. It is also dangerous to try knocking people out without knowing their medical conditions-a problem I have with Dillman's demonstrations. Someone with a heart problem or other health problem might not survive the demo. Training to strike them is a combat situation could be a very difficult task. Much harder than having someone stand in front of you and letting you hit them.

By the way, I have accidently "buzzed" some of my students by striking a couple of pressure points while demonstrating a technique and the hitting the 3rd lightly-it was not intended as an attempt to do it but I was later told by the students that I had buzzed them.

As for Wally Jay, I don't know his ranking background but he is well respected and has been around for a lot of years. I don't think he falls in the category of the sokey dokey organizations giving out high ranks to whomever pays their fees.

[aikidoc]

P.S. I believe it was John Stevens who reported that many of O'sensei's deshi saw lights when he used atemi on them. Perhaps he was striking pressure points which were inherent in a lot of locking pinning arts in the early days. The Daito-ryu people are real big on atemi.

[Edwin Neal]

so John do you understand 'atemi' to be strikes to vital points? i always understood it as any strikes... my problem with Dillman type stuff is IF it worked you would see unintentional KO's in many martial arts and sports... but this doesn't happen... now i do think that strikes to certain points can be good and effective... just not the semi-magical stuff that Dillman proposes..

[Rupert Atkinson]

I attended a Leon Jay course in the UK a long time ago. It was good stuff, and now, thinking about it, the most impressive thing is that it is known as Wally Jay's Small Circle JJ, and not some fancy sounding Japanese name with associated pseudo history. Heck, he used his own name! That has got to be worth something in this day and age. And I be the history is not so pseudo either.

[Dajo251]

Ive had some small circle finger techniques done to me, all I can say is they hurt alot

[aikidoc]

so John do you understand 'atemi' to be strikes to vital points? i always understood it as any strikes... my problem with Dillman type stuff is IF it worked you would see unintentional KO's in many martial arts and sports... but this doesn't happen... now i do think that strikes to certain points can be good and effective... just not the semi-magical stuff that Dillman proposes..

Yes, even sandai doshu describes them in his books as strikes to vital points.

[aikidoc]

Medically a vaso-vagal faint can apparently be elicited striking certain nerve points in the right sequence. The rapid drop in blood pressure can cause someone to faint. It's like getting up from a lying position too fast when you have low blood pressure. The rapid drop in blood pressure, especially if you have orthostatic hypotension, will cause you to black out.

[Stanley Archacki]

I have a very little direct and some indirect experience with Small Circle Jujitsu. I met Wally Jay about eight years ago at a joint seminar he did with Remy Presas. The thing you notice is the total control he has over his uke from the moment he gains contact. He loves to demonstrate transitions from one lock to another, with many finger and small joint controls. From the seminar he taught, I did not see as much focus on dynamic blending, or how to make initial contact with a dynamic attack. But again, I am really not that knowledgeable about this art. The "Ten Principles" of Small Circle (http://www.smallcirclejujitsu.com/principles.html) incorporate many thing we Aikidoka already do.

After Remy Presas and Wally Jay started working together closely, much of the joint work in Modern Arnis was taken from or heavily influenced by Small Circle. This is where I got most of my experience in it. I will say that the emphasis on creating a base, simultaneous push-pull motion, complex torque, etc., made my nikkyo, sankyo and yubi dori impressively painful to some of the other students when I first started Aikido. It seems that Small Circle could be studied as its own art, or it could be used to enhance your Aikido. I do recommend a seminar if you can find one.

Stan

[Edwin Neal]

i see where you are coming from Mr. Riggs, but i think the term 'vital points' is being stretched beyond it's limits by Dillman... if you mean vital point strikes like eyes, nose, throat, temple, armpit, short ribs, philtrum, solar plexus, gonads, etc thats certainly understandable... however, when Dillman starts talking about nerve clusters, meridians, and 'pushing the buttons' in certain orders, or touching, rubbing, tapping a spot on my forearm and causing unconsciousness... well i just have never seen any kind of medical evidence that this kind of thing exists... when you refer to the specific places where major nerves such as the vagas are located i can buy that, since a yokomen attack can be an atemi to this spot, or yonkyo attacking the nerve in the wrist, but this sequential activation of these points, that often have little or no real correspondence to actual physiology and no scientifically verifiable effectiveness is quite unbelievable... if it were possible wouldn't it happen at least occasionally that someone would say touch someone's arm and they would drop??? i have a very healthy amount of skepticism for these kind of highly exagerated claims... however i do believe in the less fantastic concept of vital points that i gave examples of before, but these are not 'secret' or miraculously/magically effective... i believe this is the more realistic idea that Doshu and others hold, not the Dim Mak secret ninja death touch bullshido that the likes of George Dillman purports...

Try this link and see what you think...
http://www.umam.org/Fun%20Stuff/dimmak.rm

ps do you have a link to your article in Black Belt???