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GrazZ
05-24-2004, 06:32 PM
i think thats what they are called, its the smaller one. Like what are they used for?

Jordan Steele
05-24-2004, 06:37 PM
I think what you call a shoto bokken is what I call a wakasahsi. It is smaller than bokken, but larger than tanto. I believe they were occasionally used in unison with bokken. One hand holds bokken or (katana) and the other used wakasashi. In my dojo we use them in a similar fashion to tanto dori, but the added length gives a better understanding or ma-ai(distancing) and zenshin(presence of mind). Hope this helps a bit.

Kent Enfield
05-24-2004, 07:06 PM
i think thats what they are called, its the smaller one. Like what are they used for?They're for practicing short sword waza.

Or was this some sort of trick question?

Bronson
05-24-2004, 08:12 PM
Whats the point of a shoto bokken?


It's the end opposite the handle :D

Bronson

Chuck.Gordon
05-25-2004, 05:35 AM
Shoto and wakizashi are both good names for the short sword. Technically, the wooden one would be moku-shoto or moku-wakizashi, I guess, but I've never seen that configuration used.

I understand Saotome does some two-sword stuyff, but don't know if it's dai-sho (long and short sword) or not. I have seem some video of him swinging two standard bokken/bokuto.

Many sword systems include shoto kata (even the kendo no kata and Muso Jikishin Eishin Ryu Iaido), and Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo includes some sets that have the attacker using long and short swords.

Chuck

ian
05-25-2004, 06:00 AM
Yep - as far as I was aware it is for two sword schools (as Musahi says, the short sword is essential when taking hostages). Rather than buy them I've found broken bokkens can easily be converted into a shoto (although I ended up giving the one I made to a young child as a 'practise sword')

Ian

P.S. Musashi also says to practice with two long-swords to develop strength, then the short sword will seem very easy.

Robert Townson
05-25-2004, 06:41 AM
I was under the impression that the Wakizashi were support swords, there just in case your Katana was broken or lost.
So it make sense that there is a wooden/practice version so that you can practice the appropriate Kata's (if there are such things)

Robert

Chuck.Gordon
05-25-2004, 07:08 AM
Shoto served as backup and as personal weapon while (for instance, indoors) your long sword was put away.

Some systems of budo use the short sword in conjunction in grappling (imagine ikkyo with a blade at uke's elbow rather than your hand). Takenouchi Ryu has an extensive set of grappling techniques used in conjunction with a modified shoto (about halfway tween a shoto and tanto), for one.

As stated below, a short sword is also handier in close-quarters than a long sword.

Insofar as Niten Ichi Ryu, the system that is the legacy of Musashi Miyamoto, according to some NIR folks I know, it's mostly a one-sword system, with some two-sword kata in the mix.

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and the SHinto Ryu subset of Muso Shinto Ryu Jodo all include two-sword kata as well.

Using broken bokuto to make shoto is a good idea. I once got a lovely tanto and shoto from one!

akiy
05-25-2004, 11:20 AM
I understand Saotome does some two-sword stuyff, but don't know if it's dai-sho (long and short sword) or not.
Yes, the two sword stuff he does is with one regular-sized bokuto and one shoto. Fun stuff.

-- Jun

zachbiesanz
05-25-2004, 11:42 AM
It's the end opposite the handle :D

Bronson

Very nicely done. Almost fell out of my chair when it set in.

Bronson
05-25-2004, 11:58 AM
Very nicely done. Almost fell out of my chair when it set in.

Thank you. I'll be here all week and don't forget to tip your waitress :D

Bronson

p00kiethebear
05-25-2004, 05:31 PM
Like what are they used for?

Ritual Disembowlment to reclaim your honor. = P

I can't believe no one else said this yet.

Januz
09-13-2004, 10:28 AM
Acturaly the Tantoo is used for Seppuku.

An interesting note on Niten Ichi Ryu was that Musashi used the old standards of shortsword and longsword, so that his shortsword was actualy the Katana and his longsword was the somewhat longer sword Tachi.

I have not heard of the use of shoto (or Wakisashi) in Aikido. I practice Iwama Ryu and in our club we only use three weapons; Jo, Tanto and Bokken.
I have heard of an Aikido club utulising the two weapons principle, but since they don't use wakisashi, they used Bokken and Tanto instead.

Chuck.Gordon
09-13-2004, 12:10 PM
Actually, when given the formal ritual seppuku, there was a specific blade, not the wakizashi, used.

As for Niten Ichi Ryu, from what I've seen and had a taste of (via Kim Taylor in Gueph, Ontario, Canada), the weapons we used were a fairly standard, but somewhat thin bokuto and shoto.

Chuck

George S. Ledyard
09-13-2004, 08:19 PM
I have not heard of the use of shoto (or Wakisashi) in Aikido. I practice Iwama Ryu and in our club we only use three weapons; Jo, Tanto and Bokken.
I have heard of an Aikido club utulising the two weapons principle, but since they don't use wakisashi, they used Bokken and Tanto instead.
Saotome sensei did shoto technique this summer at bnoth the DC Summer camp and the Rocky Mountain Summer Camp. Quite a bit of the use of the hands in Aikido technique is easily related to shoto.

Lyle Laizure
09-14-2004, 08:28 AM
The wakazashi is used as an indoor weapon and as a back up to the katana.

Charles
09-14-2004, 06:51 PM
I broke my left wrist a while back in a rather spectacular accident - a tree fell on me whilest I was bicycling down Saint Paul Street in Baltimore and on my way to the dojo. I've been studying two sword technique once a month for a while now, so I thought I'd do alright holding the long bokken against a two handed partner. It didn't work somehow. I couldn't make the thing move fast enough to compensate for half the strength. I took my sempai's council and used the shoto and was much happier.

So, when you lose your left hand in battle, draw your short sword.

CitoMaramba
07-12-2006, 07:20 AM
"Kendo Kata

Almost all martial arts have a set of kata. Kendo is no exception. Kata are pre-set sequences of motions which illustrate very deeply one or more aspects of the art. Repetitive practice of kata internalizes the lessons of the kata.

Kendo kata are practiced with a solid wooden sword called a bokken. There are ten kendo kata specified by the All Japan Kendo Federation. Each kata studies a single set of concepts in a very pure setting allowing the practitioner to delve deeply into these concepts.

Kendo kata are practiced between two people, the Uchitachi and the Shidachi. In kendo kata, the Uchitachi attacks the Shidachi who in turn demonstrates a proper response to the attack. Seven of these kata are illustrations of the technique of the long sword against the long sword. The last three kata illustrate the short sword defending against attacks by the long sword."

From http://www.kendo-usa.org/abtken.htm

So the short bokken or bokuto is used for practicing the three short sword kata.

Eric Webber
07-12-2006, 10:44 AM
Saotome sensei did shoto technique this summer at bnoth the DC Summer camp and the Rocky Mountain Summer Camp. Quite a bit of the use of the hands in Aikido technique is easily related to shoto.

I've also been at a seminar with a senior student of Saotome where we used both bokken and shoto in a randori situation (thankfully the three ukes only had one bokken each ;) ). Really interesting correlation to empty hand randori.

The nito ryu can be used to show a wonderful correlation to most empty hand techniques, randori and otherwise.

cguzik
07-12-2006, 10:51 AM
There are also different lengths of shoto. I have one from Bujin Design that is about 18 inches long. This is considerably shorter than a wakizashi would be, and in my opinion is better used as a kodachi. I have also seen these used in training as a substitue for tessen.

The other one I have from Kiyota Company is about 30 inches and is much closer to a wakizashi length. This is more similar to what Saotome Sensei uses in his two sword forms.

Ron Tisdale
07-12-2006, 10:55 AM
Can anyone speak to the terms kodachi and wakizashi, and their different meanings? I sometimes get the impression (probably false) that they are used interchangably.

Thanks,
Ron

Dennis Hooker
07-12-2006, 11:03 AM
The foot work, body placement, response to attack and attacking with a Shoto is not the same as that of a katana. It is a serous and individual weapon and has its own unique requirements when engaging other weapons. A person competent with a long sword may not be as competent with a short sword when facing a longer weapon. The same goes for the tanto.

Amir Krause
07-12-2006, 11:06 AM
In Korindo Aikido we have the Kodachi or Wakizashi as one of the weapons in the curriculum, thus we practice several Kata with this weapon. some of these Kata has well established Koryu origin while the origin for the rest is unknown (at least in my club). In addition, we also have some Nito based on several Koryu styles.

The Kodachi is a very interesting weapon since the practice with it often combines leverages and cuts, as well as captures done with the handle.

Amir

ChrisMoses
07-12-2006, 11:36 AM
Takeda Yoshinobu Sensei also uses the shoto extensively for a series of connection exercises. They're not based on any real sword movements, but are more like the bastard child of shoto+ikkyo+sticky hands. Interesting practice though for developing soft connection and extension which are kind of the cornerstones of his stuff.

Dennis Hooker
07-12-2006, 11:56 AM
It should also be pointed out that there is no historical data supporting warrior class samurai wearing the long sword while setting in seza. It was common however to wear the short sword. Even though we do MJERI kata with the katana I also do them with the wakazash. I prefer cutting with one from this position also.

Chuck.Gordon
07-12-2006, 12:21 PM
I've also been at a seminar with a senior student of Saotome where we used both bokken and shoto....

Please note that even Saotome doesn't claim his nito is anything resembling authentic. It's Saotome Nito and is designed to supplement his (truly beautiful) aikido. It is NOT nito technique from any classical ryuha. That don't make it ignoreable, just be sure if you've done Saotome's nito, that you don't tell a Niten Ichi Ryu guy or gal that you've done nito ...

There are also different lengths of shoto.

Yep. There is no 'standard' length for ANY sword outside of specific ryuha. In my tradition, our 'ideal' tanto is damn near a shoto for some ... in fact, we often use a moku-shoto for tanto-waza.

Can anyone speak to the terms kodachi and wakizashi,

Sho = lesser
To = blade

Wakizashi = the smaller sword worn accompanying a katana.

Ko = small or lesser
Dachi = sword (lit. straight sword, but the translation is flexed, actually and can also apply to a curved blade).

Shoto/wakizashi are almost interchangeable.

Kodachi tends to be used by certain ryuha, notably Takenouchi RYu among others, to denote a specific type of blade that's larger than a 'standard' tanto and not quite a wakizashi. It was a weapon acceptable for use by classes other than the samurai and commonly found as a sort of utility/hunting knife might be in a modern sense.

The foot work, body placement, response to attack and attacking with a Shoto is not the same as that of a katana.

What Dennis is referring to, IMHO, is maai. While maai is a fluid thing, even in terms of taijutsu, mai changes drastically as you exchange hand for dagger, dagger for short sword, short sword for long sword, long sword for short staff, short staff for polearm. In terms of a comprehensive system of classical combat, the tactical application may alter depending on the weapon in hand, but the strategic and philosophical underpinnings MUST remain untouched. If this isn't true, then probably the bits were cobbled together without much forethought or understanding of riai. IMNSHO.

It should also be pointed out that there is no historical data supporting warrior class samurai wearing the long sword while setting in seza.

Yep. Older ryuha might use iaigoshi or a similar 'squatting' posture, but you;'ll seldom see seiza as such. His comments also touch upon the idea of riai. It shouldn't matter what weapons you (or your opponent) are using, the technical underpinnings of your art should work across the board with little alteration.. What DOES change is maai ...

Ron Tisdale
07-12-2006, 12:27 PM
Thanks Chuck. I believe Ellis Amdur's version of Araki ryu uses the term kodachi as well. At least, that's the term he used at an Aiki Expo when his bokken shattered (that was one powerfull strike) and he called out 'kodachi!' to signal a change in the kata...

His uke responded without a hitch...awesome demonstration.

Best,
Ron

John Boswell
07-12-2006, 01:16 PM
Thanks Chuck. I believe Ellis Amdur's version of Araki ryu uses the term kodachi as well. At least, that's the term he used at an Aiki Expo when his bokken shattered (that was one powerfull strike) and he called out 'kodachi!' to signal a change in the kata...

His uke responded without a hitch...awesome demonstration.

Best,
Ron

He continued while using a splintered bokken? Dang! Talk about a serious weapon for a demo! A blunt "stick" is on thing, but a sharp, pointy stabbing utinsil is something altogether different! Remind me not to take ukemi for Ellis Sensei. ;) :D

Chuck.Gordon
07-13-2006, 02:22 AM
He continued while using a splintered bokken? Dang! Talk about a serious weapon for a demo! A blunt "stick" is on thing, but a sharp, pointy stabbing utinsil is something altogether different! Remind me not to take ukemi for Ellis Sensei. ;) :D

If he was demo'ing Araki Ryu, it doesn't surprise me a bit. Araki Ryu is a deadly serious system and the 'kata' are themselves easily as intense and dangerous as kumite or randori in some other styles.

cg