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Jim23
02-08-2001, 05:59 PM
What is Aikido?

Is it a Way? This is cool, my life is so, like, together.

or

Is it an Art? You want a piece 'o me? Stay away from my sista.

Well, which is it?

Jim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 8, 2001 at 06:39pm]

sceptoor
02-08-2001, 06:53 PM
It's both an art, and a way. But neither are the way you described. I could just as easily ask the same question regarding your preferred "other" martial art/way. How about we ask you "Well, do you train in Judo, or Karate?? Well?? Which is it??"

You really think that if it's a "martial art", then it's a way of threatening somebody?? And if it's a "martial way", then it's a declaration of a perfect life??

What is your "question" exactly??

Jim23
02-08-2001, 07:05 PM
Which word are you having trouble understanding?

Way or Art?

Jim23

sceptoor
02-08-2001, 08:35 PM
Gee, that's original, and I think I answered your question. It's both. What part of "BOTH" do YOU not understand??

I've read a lot of your posts over the past few weeks, and it seems your only objective is to belittle Aikido and/or it's practitioners by attempting to convince aikidoka that our martial ART of choice is all just a waste of time committed by a bunch of naive people. If you're so interested in the art, you would go find a dojo of your liking, get on the mat and experience it yourself instead of spending your time on an Aikido message board complaining about how "unrealistic" and "ineffective" the attacks/techniques are. You are the epitome of the sadly common guy that waltzes into a dojo (of any art)and asks questions like "how long till I get my black belt??", and/or challenges the sensei by saying "Well, I train in (insert favorite MA here) and blah, blah, blah". All of your posts seem to be a part of some sort of self appointed mission to enlighten us with "why we shouldn't train in Aikido and should train in Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Hapkido, Law enforcement tactics, Tai Chi, Tae Kwon Do, yada, yada, yada" I've got news for you. Most of us(and I think I can speak for most fellow aikidoka) have researched other martial arts, and have CHOSEN our martial art. Some have trained in other martial arts and hold high ranks in them and STILL choose Aikido as their favorite.

The fact is, I've trained in Karate. It didn't impress me much. Neither does Judo. I choose Aikido, at least for now. I frankly don't have the time to fit 10 different MA's into my day and become the ultimate, invincible, highly feared warrior. I just want to practice Aikido for now, and when I get a solid foundation, I MIGHT choose to train in geurilla warfare and become a special forces officer in the marines, until then, I only have time to train 3 nights a week in Aikido.

To be honest with you, I've recently been to websites of other martial arts. I've viewed their MPEGS on some techniques. I, unlike you, do not judge a martial art as a whole based on the few videos I've seen, but I have to tell you, from what little I have seen, it doesn't "appear" that their attacks are any more "realistic" than what you have seen from Aikido MPEGS!!! Aikido simply DIFFERS in it's fundamentals from other MA's from the get go. For one thing, GETTING OUT OF THE WAY of a committed knife attack(for example), is somehow MISSING from other martial arts. You can learn to "block" it, but what if he is stronger?? What if you're not quick enough to counter the strike?? YOU ARE STILL STANDING IN FRONT OF HIM, AND YOU WILL GET STABBED!!!

I hope I didn't offend any other aikidoka, and I hope I am not wrong, but if I am, please correct me after I apologize for being so, and wrongly representing. I'll be the first to apologize. I just get sick and tired of reading such arrogant crap.

Jim23
02-08-2001, 08:46 PM
Jim23 wrote:
What is Aikido?

Is it a Way? This is cool, my life is so, like, together.

or

Is it an Art? You want a piece 'o me? Stay away from my sista.

Well, which is it?

Jim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 8, 2001 at 06:39pm]

Touchy aren't we.

Find a mirror ... and look at it.

Who is being silly ar arrogant?

Jeez! get a life before you burst a vessel

Jim23

Jim23
02-08-2001, 08:49 PM
sceptoor wrote:


To be honest with you, I've recently been to websites of other martial arts. I've viewed their MPEGS on some techniques. I, unlike you, do not judge a martial art as a whole based on the few videos I've seen, but I have to tell you, from what little I have seen, it doesn't "appear" that their attacks are any more "realistic" than what you have seen from Aikido MPEGS!!! Aikido simply DIFFERS in it's fundamentals from other MA's from the get go. For one thing, GETTING OUT OF THE WAY of a committed knife attack(for example), is somehow MISSING from other martial arts. You can learn to "block" it, but what if he is stronger?? What if you're not quick enough to counter the strike?? YOU ARE STILL STANDING IN FRONT OF HIM, AND YOU WILL GET STABBED!!!



Where did this come from? I wish I knew what you were smoking when you wrote this.

Jim23

sceptoor
02-08-2001, 08:56 PM
Well, which sentence in there are you having trouble with??

Jim23
02-08-2001, 09:05 PM
I asked a simple question in order to stimulate a response and you go postal on me, accusing me of draging the entire human race into the toilet.

If aikido doesn't work for you, take a sedative! C-h-i-l-l O-U-T-!

My question, again: Is it a WAY or a MARTIAL ART?

Comprehendo?

Jim23

Jim23
02-08-2001, 09:17 PM
sceptoor wrote:
Well, which sentence in there are you having trouble with??

Chris,

Next time, a controlled response please. Respond to the question and please don't attack me for ... I really can't find a reason why you did. Provoking thought perhaps?

What's eating at you? Or, maybe I should say: what have you eaten? Meditation has been known to work for some people - think about it!

Jim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 8, 2001 at 10:02pm]

sceptoor
02-08-2001, 10:29 PM
Your last response has nothing to do with what I posted. NOTHING.

I never said Aikido doesn't work for me. Read my post again, let it sink in. And for the last time, I answered your question. BOTH. It is a martial art AND a martial way. For me, it is a martial art, but it's a martial way also. Have I been clear enough?? What is your deal anyway??

Have you gone and attended ANY Aikido classes yet?? If not, please respect our choice to practice aikido, and not Judo, Karate, or whatever else you consider "more street effective".

I haven't gone postal on you at all. However, I have been enduring your condescending questions towards other aikidoka for a while now, and frankly, I'm tired of it. For some reason, you have this fascination with all things "non-aikido", while at the same time pretending you are interested. Posting things that have to do with ANYTHING OTHER THAN Aikido. Do you expect us to jump up and say, "Thanks JIM!! Had you not let me know that there were other martial arts out there than aikido, I would have been stuck training in this worthless MA for years without realizing that Tae-Bo was better!!" And, meditation is not my thing, just like aikido is obviously not yours. Whatever works for you dude, as you have illustrated your vast background in every MA.(except for aikido)

You'll probably have the same old "wow, you're touchy" response I would expect from someone with nothing else to say.

Matt Banks
02-09-2001, 03:29 AM
Very well said sceptoor,

You hit the nail right on the head. This is basically what Ive wanted to say but have never had the time to write it all. Id rather train. I feel exactly how you do.


once again

well said



Matt Banks

Jim23
02-09-2001, 10:49 AM
OK, I have a question.

What is the purpose of a forum like this? To constantly pat ourselves on the back and ask wishy-washy questions like "Should everyone train in aikido?" (no offence to the person who wrote that).

What's the point?

We need to provoke ourselves. We need to look around at what others are doing. We need to improve ourselves, be self-critical, not constantly pat ourselves on the back, saying things like "Gee, aikido is the best thing around, karatekas can't punch, and who cares, I don't care if my aikido works in a fight or not ... so don't bring that up". If I sound a bit stupid, that was my intention.

If you're at school or in a job or whatever, you should be aware of your life and try to improve yourself and your circumstances. The same applies to aikido. It's not perfect, it's not bad. It's not sacred! It is a martial art ... or way?

Is it wrong to look at other styles? At people who train at self-defence? At whatever?

And Matt, we were just discussing this topic (art/way) in another thread. You had no problem with it there - in fact it was quite civilized. What happened? If someone said that this was already discussed - fine. But this attack was uncalled for.

Am I wrong to bring up topics that wake people up? Questions that provoke us to think and actually respond? To keep this forum interesting?

Sceptor, you really have a chip on your shoulder and a very bad attitude. I wasn't attacking aikido. Just your childish and (very) agressive response.

And don't say that I deserved it. Read the question again.

Jim23

Jim23
02-09-2001, 11:28 AM
Jim23 wrote:
OK, I have a question.

And Matt, we were just discussing this topic (art/way) in another thread. You had no problem with it there - in fact it was quite civilized.

Jim23

Sorry Matt, it wasn't you, it was Dan.

Actually I shouldn't say "sorry" - I'm being too nice here.

Jim23

Brian
02-09-2001, 01:51 PM
Jim23 wrote:
Touchy, aren't we?

I asked a simple question in order to stimulate a response and you go postal on me...

I wasn't attacking aikido. Just your childish and (very) aggressive response.


From the same person who wrote...


Which word are you having trouble understanding?

I wish I knew what you were smoking when you wrote this.

What is the purpose of a forum like this? To constantly pat ourselves on the back and ask wishy-washy questions like "Should everyone train in aikido?"

Jeez! get a life before you burst a vessel



*cough*

Perhaps you should be the one to...



Find a mirror ... and look at it.

Jim23
02-09-2001, 02:39 PM
Brian,

Read my question (which was a topic that came up in another thread and seemed worthy of a thread of it's own), then the rude attack that followed.

After that stupid assault I simply fed the same attitude back to him. By the way, I don't call people stupid very often. I don't even get argry very often.

My mirror looks just fine.

I'd better get ready for multiple attacks.

Jim23

Dan Hover
02-09-2001, 02:41 PM
this may seem a little late, but I find that questions and topics like these are asked by people who don't understand their own art let alone aikido

Jim23
02-09-2001, 02:51 PM
Dan,

Remember that we were discussing this topic earlier in another thread?

All I did was start a new thread with it, using the language I did in orded to get it rolling.

But, boy I touched on a nerve with it.

Jim23

Dan Hover
02-09-2001, 02:55 PM
if you really want to know, I would suggest reading up on the evolution of Bujutsu to budo, there are plenty of great sources out there, these books will not only put aikido in a proper perspective but put the other japanese arts into their proper frame of reference as well, being a book they will not touch a nerve, but will be objective. You will learn a lot, I did.

Jim23
02-09-2001, 03:05 PM
Thanks for a civilized answer Dan. I really mean that.

Jim23

Magma
02-09-2001, 03:13 PM
Jim, I have to disagree. You didn't touch a nerve with your topic or what you said. You touched a nerve with your tone, attitude, and attacks. Personally, I don't see an attack in sceptoor's initial reponse to this thread that warranted the responses you have given since then. He wasn't as forgiving as he could have been, true, but that could have been from the tone of your previous posts.

And "feeding back the same attitude that you were given"? What is that? What speaks more highly of your character if you are physically slapped:
1) That you walk away, or at least remain in control of yourself? or
2) That you immediately slap the other person back just as hard?

If you feel you are being attacked, stay above it and don't let it get personal. But at the same time, think about what you're writing, because a great deal of the time it sounds like you are making personal attacks.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Jim23
02-09-2001, 03:28 PM
Tim,

--------
How about we ask you "Well, do you train in Judo, or Karate?? Well?? Which is it??"

You really think that if it's a "martial art", then it's a way of threatening somebody?? And if it's a "martial way", then it's a declaration of a perfect life??
--------

Right. This was a guy trying to start a fight. If people can't see that, I'm really in a no-win situation here.

He was rude, so I responded in kind. Then he exploded.

Jim23

Greg Jennings
02-09-2001, 05:59 PM
What would you guys think of someone going into a Southern inner city neighborhood flying a large Confederate battle flag painted on the hood of his car?

Naive, proud of his heritage, watched too many "Dukes of Hazard" episodes, ignorant, culturally insensitive or trolling for an argument?

Greg Jennings

Matthieu
02-09-2001, 07:26 PM
Hi, this is Martin in for Matthieu who's taking a break right now!

I've been practicing aikido for the last 5 years right now. To answer to Jim's question, is it a way or an art, I have to agree with Sceptoor. It is both. It depends on how you practice. Any martial arts could be martial ways and the other way arround. The most important thing is who's teaching you? For instance, aikido, without the philosophical thinking and with no regards towards the opponent is called aiki-jujutsu.
Aiki-jutsu was the martial arts used by the Samouraļ.
Feel free to debate!
:)

Magma
02-09-2001, 07:29 PM
Jim23 wrote:
He was rude, so I responded in kind. Then he exploded.

Jim23

See my post in the "What is the Purpose of this Forum?" thread for my reaction.

All I'm saying is "Why?" Why respond in kind? Respond more kindly and you will get the reaction you're looking for. Very likely sceptoor was responding the way he did based on other posts of yours that he had read, so how far back in the gradeschool game of cause-and-effect ("it's his fault", "no, it's his fault) do you want to go? Just accept responsibility and listen to how people are reacting to you. You'll get back what you send out.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

sceptoor
02-09-2001, 10:22 PM
Look JIM,
My last post pretty much sums it up. But my first response was really about asking you to be more specific, it wasn't intended to be condescending. However, you immediately responded with a condescending question, "Which word are you having trouble understanding?? Way or Art??" My response to that was completely called for. I am sorry you do not like my answer, but it is a valid answer. That's the idea of this forum is it not?? I'm not one to "attack" anyone usually, but I wouldn't call my response an "attack" anymore than I would call "shihonage" an attack.

We need to provoke ourselves. We need to look around at what others are doing. We need to improve ourselves, be self-critical, not constantly pat ourselves on the back, saying things like "Gee, aikido is the best thing around, karatekas can't punch, and who cares, I don't care if my aikido works in a fight or not ... so don't bring that up". If I sound a bit stupid, that was my intention.

Is it wrong to look at other styles? At people who train at self-defence? At whatever?

I agree with this, but so far, I've never seen an aikidoka on this forum NOT agreeing with this, so why are we constantly being informed that there are other martial arts to choose from?? Do you think we don't know that?? As a matter of fact, I guarantee you that most aikidoka had heard of most other MA's long before they ever heard of aikido, so it's safe to assume that most aikidoka chose aikido for many personal reasons, not because it was the only MA available in their town. I'd say it's a rare thing that somebody would be training in aikido when suddenly they discover that there is a MA out there called "Karate". I agree that training in other martial arts would be beneficial, but that goes for ANY martial artist. Are you annoyed that aikido does not "spar"?? Sorry dude, but it's too incompatible and a "karatedoka" would end up getting INJURED, NOT because aikido is better, but because they don't know how to fall IN A COMPATIBLE MANNER, and no aikidoka (that I know of) wishes to injure anyone in the dojo.

If you're at school or in a job or whatever, you should be aware of your life and try to improve yourself and your circumstances. The same applies to aikido. It's not perfect, it's not bad. It's not sacred! It is a martial art ... or way?

The same applies to aikido?? Oh my gosh, really?? Thanks for that enlightening revelation.

Your constant criticism and "eye opening" suggestions that we should "spar" with other MA's is not realistic. Do you really expect to persuade a forum full of aikidoka to suddenly adopt the "sparring and competition" attitude?? Has it crossed your mind that maybe aikidoka in general chose this art(partly) because there is no competition, no sparring, no trophies, and no belt factories??
Most people here do not believe in any of that, if they did, they wouldn't be aikidoka, they would be in Tae Kwon Do, Okinawan Karate, or Judo, or ......whatever.

Have you gotten on the mat yet?? I doubt you would have the patience to stay in it long enough to form a solid opinion. You don't just waltz into an aikido dojo, learn a few techniques, and then go pick a fight at your local pub to see if it works either. You have to UNLEARN what you have learned all of your life about "fighting" and/or defending yourself, because when people say aikido is not "fighting", it's not just hippy aiki philosophy, it's the truth.

shadow
02-09-2001, 11:52 PM
ahhhh just stop your bickering all of you! it's unbecoming and it's not the kind of maturity level I would expect from any long term martial artists!

wildaikido
02-10-2001, 12:03 AM
sceptoor is right (see his first post) it is both a way and an art, it all depends on the context in which you want to discuss aikido.

Jim23
02-10-2001, 10:20 AM
Please find where I suggested that there should be sparring in aikido, I can't.

Someone even suggested that I only want to be a black belt in aikido and that my first question to my sensi was how long it would take me.

I agree with shadow, enough of this.

Jim23

sceptoor
02-10-2001, 04:48 PM
Jim23 wrote:
Please find where I suggested that there should be sparring in aikido, I can't.

Someone even suggested that I only want to be a black belt in aikido and that my first question to my sensi was how long it would take me.

I agree with shadow, enough of this.

Jim23

Right here--

My opinion is that a little sparring (even with restrictions) would wake a few people up and make them better prepared to deal a real physical confrontation.

That way thay get to experience/learn both sides.

It's a bit like your boxing (but different), you get to understand if your punch has any effect on your opponent and just how strong or weak people are.

If you try to throw someone much stronger or quicker, who is resisting, you'll quickly find out if your technique works and what technique works for you.

It only makes sense to me. But let's not brawl.

Jim23

and I believe you are referring to this section of one of my earlier posts;

You are the epitome of the sadly common guy that waltzes into a dojo (of any art)and asks questions like "how long till I get my black belt??", and/or challenges the sensei by saying "Well, I train in (insert favorite MA here) and blah, blah, blah". All of your posts seem to be a part of some sort of self appointed mission to enlighten us with "why we shouldn't train in Aikido and should train in Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Hapkido, Law enforcement tactics, Tai Chi, Tae Kwon Do, yada, yada, yada" It looks like someone is twisting my words around. You are a victim of denial. It looks as though you blame others for possessing your own faults, then tell them to look into a mirror. Well, your mirror has betrayed you.

Jim23
02-10-2001, 05:22 PM
sceptoor wrote:
[QUOTE]Jim23 wrote:
[B]Please find where I suggested that there should be sparring in aikido, I can't.

Jim23

Right here--

My opinion is that a little sparring (even with restrictions) would wake a few people up and make them better prepared to deal a real physical confrontation.

That way thay get to experience/learn both sides.

It's a bit like your boxing (but different), you get to understand if your punch has any effect on your opponent and just how strong or weak people are.

If you try to throw someone much stronger or quicker, who is resisting, you'll quickly find out if your technique works and what technique works for you.

It only makes sense to me. But let's not brawl.

Jim23

Again, I still stand by what I said, but I didn't say that aikido should include sparring or be changed to suit me, why would I say that?. I said that practicing for real attackers should involve sparring to understand what it feels like to hit and be hit (again, do I need to explain what I don't mean here? There's a lot that I don't mean by that). Many have agreed on that point - maybe you don't, but that's your opinion.

I have a friend who is a 4th dan aikidoka who trains in ju-juitsu to round out his training. Lots of respect for the guy. He's concerned about a fight going to the ground, but he's not changing aikido, he's sparring in BJJ.

I went back and looked at my previous posts and, sure, at times I've been blunt or flip, but usually after a silly comment or when someone completely misreading a post. A snide remark here and there, sure (we're all adults here), but what I haven't done is been as rude or insulting as some of the comments directed at me. Personnaly, I don't give a darn. Those things don't anger me, but I do find them immature and frustrating.

And Chris, by ending with what you said, it appears that you want this "debate" to continue. You're seem to be the one prodding at me for a response.

Enough.

Jim23

sceptoor
02-10-2001, 11:01 PM
I'll tell you what. I'll end this "debate" if you want, just as long as you know that your belittling remarks will not go unanswered. Believe it or not, I do agree with some of your points, I just highly disagree with other points you make, AND the manner in which you make them. I'm not trying to start a fight, it is not my nature. I just get fed up like any other human being. (Who knows, you and I just might become good friends one day, the aikido "circle" is rather small, and we could end up training together in a seminar if you ever manage to try it one day) My point to this whole thing is not to "sell" you on Aikido, it is only to defend the aikidoka's american right to choose to train in whatever and however many MA's he/she wants to. However inneffective, or unrealistic Aikido might seem to be in your opinion, the truth is that all other MA's also have those "flaws". Cross training in my opinion is a good idea, but sparring or any other form of competition is not. Like I said before, my "parent" dojo has annual cross training seminars, the first one was apparently a success(I unfortunately missed it), and I plan on attending the next one. Exchanging ideas to improve technique is good, it's called evolution, but the idea of sparring to prove "who's MA is better or weaker" is ridiculous. Peace.

Jim23
02-11-2001, 07:28 AM
sceptoor wrote:
However inneffective, or unrealistic Aikido might seem to be in your opinion, the truth is that all other MA's also have those "flaws".

... but the idea of sparring to prove "who's MA is better or weaker" is ridiculous. Peace.

You're still reading too much into what I've said in trying to prove your point.

I agree with your statement that all martial arts have flaws, who would disagree with that? But why are you still saying that in my opinion aikido is inneffective or unrealistic? If I'm critical about some aspect of aikido (eg. the fittness level of a class or whatever), or show another opinion, does that say that I feel it is inneffective? Of course not. I hope you're not saying that people shouldn't have an opinion or dare be critical of an aspect of aikido.

I agree that the idea of sparring to prove "who's MA is better or weaker" is ridiculous. Something I also never said. Peace.

Jim23


[Edited by Jim23 on February 11, 2001 at 07:30am]

sceptoor
02-11-2001, 10:14 AM
Ok, are you now implying that I think people shouldn't have opinions or dare criticize aikido?? Of course I don't. That would imply that I had a closed mind. First of all, I would say you would HAVE to have an open mind if you practice aikido, otherwise, one would never get past the first day. The many subjects I read about on a daily basis would not peak the interest of a skeptic or closed minded person at all.

As far as this;

But why are you still saying that in my opinion aikido is inneffective or unrealistic? If I'm critical about some aspect of aikido (eg. the fittness level of a class or whatever), or show another opinion, does that say that I feel it is inneffective?

I really don't have the time to search through all of your posts to "cut and paste" every statement you've made regarding Aikido and it's ineffectiveness and/or the "poor fitness level" of the typical Aikidoka. I find it uneccessary to have to do that just to prove my point, but you know those statements are there just the same. Anyway, who's perpetuating this debate now?? Peace.

Dan Hover
02-11-2001, 11:27 AM
Matthieu wrote:
Hi, this is Martin in for Matthieu who's taking a break right now!

Aiki-jutsu was the martial arts used by the Samouraļ.
Feel free to debate!
:)

ummm, seeing you are free to debate aikijutsu was not the martial art used by Samurai.

Jim23
02-11-2001, 11:49 AM
This is going nowhere.

We both want to have the last word and not listen to the other side. Agree?

I know that you don't want to understand my view and franky, I'm getting tired of yours.

Let's just agree to disagree (if that's what we've done), pick up our toys and move on.

Jim23

sceptoor
02-11-2001, 04:22 PM
Jim23 wrote:
This is going nowhere.

I know that you don't want to understand my view and franky, I'm getting tired of yours.

Let's just agree to disagree (if that's what we've done), pick up our toys and move on.

Jim23

I do understand your point of view, and if I don't, then help me understand it without your resorting to personal attacks. Understanding and agreeing are two different things. I understand you were looking to find answers about Aikido. I understand you found them, didn't like them, and then began condescending it. I understand that the kendo/kenjitsu/taijitsu(sword and empty-hand) relationship in aikido, the importance of ukemi during training, the "stepping off line" and the "redirection vs. blocking" philosophy confuses you enough to think that aikidoka should "open up our minds" to other MA's because the "attacks" in aikido are generally weak and unrealistic as opposed to the incredibly realistic Karate punches and kicks. I understand that you favor MA's that regularly compete and/or spar, which means you associate MA's with SPORT, not budo, and that a MA which doesn't participate in the SPORT attitude(such as Aikido) is simply ineffective and maybe even misleading to people who choose to practice Aikido. I just don't necessarily AGREE with you. What I DON'T understand is why you feel you're such an authority in Aikido when you've never even actually participated in a class and/or the fact that you're still lingering around telling us general things we already know and agree with, and even better, enlightening us with your infinite wisdom of the martial arts. And Jim, don't call me Franky. :)

Jim23
02-11-2001, 05:28 PM
First of all, I'm actually surprised and pleased to find that you have a sense of humor. Because Franky, you were starting to lose credibility with me (I know that you don't like when I am critical of you, but you are pretty good at it dishing it out yourself). Even as I became more and more cautious with the wording of my posts, you still had to find a word or two to misinterpret and take issue with.

There's a lot of what you still say about me that's completely wrong, and I mean no offence by that (should I even need to say that) and I take no offence either - usually.

You are always saying that you understand me and I don't understand you. You also keep saying that I resort to personal attacks and you don't. You seem to have me figured out, but you are wrong on most counts. Give me a little credit here and stop making statements that you THINK are true, regardless of your reasons. I'm not a stupid as you might think and please don't make assumptions about me (ASSUME: to make an ASS out of U and ME) Still have that sense of humor? ;)

And I'm not as confused about aikido as you might think. But I do see things and I have made comments. Let me give you an example. Suppose, for example, I saw good technique in a class and commented that it was good. No problem and really no reason to comment - why preach to the converted? But what if the opposite happened, lets say someone got hurt, or the instructor was huffing and puffing, or whatever? More of a reason to voice an opinion. BTW I also have views on karate: a lot of it is pretty silly and impractical (IMHO), but no reason to say that here.

All along you've been trying to straighten me out and I have been trying to straighten you out (meaning mostly regarding misinterpretations). We're all adults here so let's take each other's comments at face value. If you like or dislike something, just say it.

I think you kinda like these posts, or is that an assumption?

Jim23

Dan Hover
02-11-2001, 05:38 PM
Man oh man, I can feel the sexual tension between you two, you can cut it with a knife

Jim23
02-11-2001, 05:45 PM
Ha!

Don't say that. You're making me nervous.

Jim23

sceptoor
02-11-2001, 11:16 PM
Dan Hover wrote:
Man oh man, I can feel the sexual tension between you two, you can cut it with a knife

Now THAT'S funny. Let's not bring sexual fantasies in here please. :) C'mon Dan, we were just having a little debate. Jim seems to be an all right guy, just a little confused, heh heh. :D

Jim, I'll be a little less critical of what you say from now on, a'ite?? But being critical of Aikido in an Aikido forum is like walking into Raymond James stadium wearing a Viking or Packer jersey. It's kind of bold, eh??

Kenn
02-12-2001, 05:16 AM
But being critical of Aikido in an Aikido forum is like walking into Raymond James stadium wearing a Viking or Packer jersey. It's kind of bold, eh??

[/B][/QUOTE]

lol, Not a problem for me, I'm from Chicago originally and wear a BEARS jersey to every BEARS/bucs game at ray jay every year.

and you're right, Jim is an alright guy, reminds me of myself in the religous chat rooms, he just likes to stir things up, but not just for the sake of it. He uses (sometimes) valid points and puts them in a way that is sure to get a rise out of some people is all.

Jim, you're alright by me, even if you are wrong on many occasions. (notice the attempt to "rile" up Jim...lol)

Peace all,
Kenn

Jim23
02-12-2001, 06:14 AM
Sex, religion and aikido all in one thread - now we need to discuss hanging chads! Maybe not.

Thanks Kenn, BTW, all I feel now is harmony.

Jim23

Matthieu
02-12-2001, 07:58 AM
Dan Hover wrote:
Matthieu wrote:
Hi, this is Martin in for Matthieu who's taking a break right now!

Aiki-jutsu was the martial arts used by the Samouraļ.
Feel free to debate!
:)

ummm, seeing you are free to debate aikijutsu was not the martial art used by Samurai.

Now this is Matthieu:)

Hey Dan, can you tell us then what martial arts ;) did Samouraļ trained in for? It would seem that your knowledge is quite exhaustive on the subject.
I am sure that every one could benefit from these kinds of information.

ian
02-12-2001, 08:04 AM
This is a story by Chuang Tzu...

A man was crossing a river in the fog when he saw a boat heading straight towards him. He shouted for the pilot to move out of the way, but the boat kept a straight line, heading towards him. As the boat approached he shouted louder and louder and became more and more angry, then at the last moment he had to steer around the other boat himself. As the boat passed he turned to shout at the man at the oars, but then he realised it was empty and just floating around, at which point all his anger dissapated.

Ian

sceptoor
02-12-2001, 08:59 AM
Heh, heh, so who is the empty boat??(metaphorically)

DiNalt
02-12-2001, 11:49 AM
sceptoor wrote:
Heh, heh, so who is the empty boat??(metaphorically)

The empty boat is the brainless idiot who attacks you.

So when you realize there's just wind in his head, you don't get so frightened/angered because you know where he is coming from - sheer idiocy.

Or I could be wrong :)

Dan Hover
02-12-2001, 01:03 PM
Matthieu wrote:
Dan Hover wrote:
Matthieu wrote:
Hi, this is Martin in for Matthieu who's taking a break right now!

Aiki-jutsu was the martial arts used by the Samouraļ.
Feel free to debate!
:)

ummm, seeing you are free to debate aikijutsu was not the martial art used by Samurai.

Now this is Matthieu:)

Hey Dan, can you tell us then what martial arts ;) did Samouraļ trained in for? It would seem that your knowledge is quite exhaustive on the subject.
I am sure that every one could benefit from these kinds of information.

I would be more than happy too. The term Aiki has been used quite liberally throughout the koryu Bujutsu legacy. Often as the term "Aiki inyo ho" which is similiar to the concept of JU no Ri, the principle of being Soft. Anyhow, the samurai did not practice empty hand arts like jujutsu as a rule, their main art was a weapon art, their complementary art was another weapon art, after that another weapon art and so on. The grappling art that they did do was like Yoroi Kumiuchi, which dealt dealing with an armed, armor clad warrior. The art handed down to us from the Aizu warriors was called oshikiuchi which was a generic term used for thier secondary systems of hand to hand combat. Takeda Sokaku had studied sword extensively before any training in Jujutsu, He was proficient in Ono-ha Itto Ryu Heiho and Jikishinkage ryu. Daido ryu of the Aizu clan (not to be confused with Daito ryu) was a sogu budo that had stressed Tojutsu, Kyuba, sojutsu, and Kajutsu, the Aizu clan members also studied iaijutsu of the Mizuno Shinto ryu. Furthermore Saigo Tonomo was the head of the Daido clan, he had hired Takeda as his personal bodyguard. And it wasnt until after Takeda's famed encounter with the construction workers that Takeda started his education in Jujutsu, at the urging of Saigo in 1898, some 17 years after the aforementioned incident. I hope this answers your question. And clarifies your question on how full of crap I am.

sceptoor
02-12-2001, 03:49 PM
DiNalt wrote:
sceptoor wrote:
Heh, heh, so who is the empty boat??(metaphorically)

The empty boat is the brainless idiot who attacks you.

So when you realize there's just wind in his head, you don't get so frightened/angered because you know where he is coming from - sheer idiocy.

Or I could be wrong :)


I understood that much, I meant which one of us, Jim or I, was the metaphorical "empty boat" in your story. But, nevermind, I may not want to know. ;)

ian
02-13-2001, 06:47 AM
I think sometimes these things are best not explained, but as far as I am aware everyone is the empty boat.

The idea is that you don't have to get angry at anybody just because they are not doing what you want, everyone is part of the ebb and flow in this single unified universe.

Ian

Jim23
02-13-2001, 05:42 PM
sceptoor wrote:

I understood that much, I meant which one of us, Jim or I

Chris, don't worry about it. m(_ _)m

Hey Chris (Sceptoor - what the heck does that mean anyway? ;) )

Got a question for you regarding sparring in Aikido. I've been doing some research and came across this, which you've possibly seen. It's to do with Tomiki Aikido (which everyone knows about, obviously).

I'm not trying to suggest that anyone adopt this, but it was on an Aikido site and I was wondering what you thought about it (couldn't bother to start a new thread either as I don't want to see my name in "lights").

Your thoughts please (I also have a question on different styles of Aikido, but that can wait for now).

--------

First and foremost Randori does not mean Shiai (match or game). The original name for Randori was Midaregeiko. The 'Ran' of Randori is the same Japanese Kanji character as the 'Midare' of Midaregeiko.

The practice is by no means easy and shouldn't be entered into in a flippant manner. Those who don't want to take part in an actual Shiai (competition) can still forge the techniques that they learned in Kata by doing Randorigeiko. There are three levels of Randorigeiko which you can choose from to best suit your level, age, physical condition, etc.

1) Kakarigeiko

In Kakarigeiko the Kata techniques of ordinary practice are put into use. There is still a Tori and an Uke. The Tori can apply techniques in any order he sees fit to cope with uke's mock attacks. There is no need to stick to a certain routine as in Kata practice. The Uke puts up no resistance and should quickly do whatever ukemi is suitable for the technique that Tori applies. By practising in this way, Tori should develop the ability to perform techniques instantaneously without a moments thought and should learn how to go from doing one waza to another freely without constraints.

2) Hikitategeiko

Hikitategeiko is considered a level up from Kakarigeiko. In Hikitategeiko the Uke should only do Ukemis (breakfalls) for those Waza which he thinks that Tori executed properly and effectively. If Tori's Waza was ineffective then he shouldn't do Ukemi but should wait for Tori to do another more proper and effective technique. In this way Tori should learn to be able to a) Do more effective Waza and b) transfer from doing one Waza to another immediately (especially if the first Waza is proving ineffective). Uke may change the speed of Tanto strikes, include feints and sometimes change his reactions to Tori's Waza. In this way Uke helps Tori to improve.

3) Randorigeiko

Now there is no longer a Tori and an Uke (because an Uke by definition is a person on whom Tori is allowed to practice his technique and who does a breakfall for Tori's technique) but rather a person holding a rubber knife and one who is not. The person holding the Tanto (rubber knife) is allowed to freely attack the other person's body areas, as stipulated in the rules, and is also allowed to freely resist the Waza (techniques) that the other person is trying to apply. Aside from adding a feeling of reality this should allow both parties to polish up the all-round abilities that they have acquired through basic practice, Kakarigeiko and Hikitategeiko. Here "all-round abilities" means Mind, Technique and Body. It is important to stress that Aikido is not meant to depend on one's physical strength but rather on posture, timing, avoidance, etc.

Once someone has been thoroughly exposed to Randorigeiko they will be able to take part in a Randori Shiai (competition). However please remember that Randorigeiko is NOT the same as a Randori Shiai. For those who have no interest in taking part in Randori competitions it is still strongly recommended that they make good use of the above three methods of training as a way to test themselves and increase their abilities.

Jim23 m(_ _)m

[Edited by Jim23 on February 13, 2001 at 05:46pm]

sceptoor
02-13-2001, 10:55 PM
Jim23 wrote:
sceptoor wrote:

I understood that much, I meant which one of us, Jim or I

Chris, don't worry about it. m(_ _)m

Hey Chris (Sceptoor - what the heck does that mean anyway? ;) )

Got a question for you regarding sparring in Aikido. I've been doing some research and came across this, which you've possibly seen. It's to do with Tomiki Aikido (which everyone knows about, obviously).

I'm not trying to suggest that anyone adopt this, but it was on an Aikido site and I was wondering what you thought about it (couldn't bother to start a new thread either as I don't want to see my name in "lights").

Your thoughts please (I also have a question on different styles of Aikido, but that can wait for now).

--------

First and foremost Randori does not mean Shiai (match or game). The original name for Randori was Midaregeiko. The 'Ran' of Randori is the same Japanese Kanji character as the 'Midare' of Midaregeiko.

The practice is by no means easy and shouldn't be entered into in a flippant manner. Those who don't want to take part in an actual Shiai (competition) can still forge the techniques that they learned in Kata by doing Randorigeiko. There are three levels of Randorigeiko which you can choose from to best suit your level, age, physical condition, etc.

1) Kakarigeiko

In Kakarigeiko the Kata techniques of ordinary practice are put into use. There is still a Tori and an Uke. The Tori can apply techniques in any order he sees fit to cope with uke's mock attacks. There is no need to stick to a certain routine as in Kata practice. The Uke puts up no resistance and should quickly do whatever ukemi is suitable for the technique that Tori applies. By practising in this way, Tori should develop the ability to perform techniques instantaneously without a moments thought and should learn how to go from doing one waza to another freely without constraints.

2) Hikitategeiko

Hikitategeiko is considered a level up from Kakarigeiko. In Hikitategeiko the Uke should only do Ukemis (breakfalls) for those Waza which he thinks that Tori executed properly and effectively. If Tori's Waza was ineffective then he shouldn't do Ukemi but should wait for Tori to do another more proper and effective technique. In this way Tori should learn to be able to a) Do more effective Waza and b) transfer from doing one Waza to another immediately (especially if the first Waza is proving ineffective). Uke may change the speed of Tanto strikes, include feints and sometimes change his reactions to Tori's Waza. In this way Uke helps Tori to improve.

3) Randorigeiko

Now there is no longer a Tori and an Uke (because an Uke by definition is a person on whom Tori is allowed to practice his technique and who does a breakfall for Tori's technique) but rather a person holding a rubber knife and one who is not. The person holding the Tanto (rubber knife) is allowed to freely attack the other person's body areas, as stipulated in the rules, and is also allowed to freely resist the Waza (techniques) that the other person is trying to apply. Aside from adding a feeling of reality this should allow both parties to polish up the all-round abilities that they have acquired through basic practice, Kakarigeiko and Hikitategeiko. Here "all-round abilities" means Mind, Technique and Body. It is important to stress that Aikido is not meant to depend on one's physical strength but rather on posture, timing, avoidance, etc.

Once someone has been thoroughly exposed to Randorigeiko they will be able to take part in a Randori Shiai (competition). However please remember that Randorigeiko is NOT the same as a Randori Shiai. For those who have no interest in taking part in Randori competitions it is still strongly recommended that they make good use of the above three methods of training as a way to test themselves and increase their abilities.

Jim23 m(_ _)m

[Edited by Jim23 on February 13, 2001 at 05:46pm]

Anyway, I agree with the RandoriGeiko somewhat, but I do not agree with the shiai part. I do not believe in competition, but I do believe in paying attention to detail in what the sensei is teaching, and to being a sincere uke to help Nage develop his/her technique, and paying attention to Uke's attacks as well as what I am doing as Nage to help develop my own technique. (My sensei says uke should always be trying to attack Nage THROUGHOUT the technique) Uke still has to protect himself also, so too much resistance is not wise. Remember, Nage does not learn aikido at Uke's expense. Both are learning to protect oneself at the same time, therefore, competition is useless and only hinders one's aikido training. Just my opinion.

Steve Speicher
02-14-2001, 08:26 AM
Aikido is a Way. (do = way) Aiki-jitsu would be an art. I'm taking the following from a book I'm currently reading (not a direct quote), but I agree with the author's assessment.

Basically, the 'jitsu's are martial arts. Their highest ideal is combat effectiveness and development of technique towards that end. The 'do's are martial ways. They are based off of the form and technique of their 'jitsu' counterpart, but have one or more esoteric 'higher' ideals that the practitioner strives for. These ideals are different depending what Way one chooses to follow. Per aikido specifically, there are many higher ideals that O Sensei has stressed and incorporated into his martial way.

Well that's my take on it at least.
Martial Art = effective combat technique
Martial Way = striving towards higher ideals while developing combat technique

Aikilove
02-14-2001, 08:49 AM
"Aikido wa budo de aru" This is a quote of the creater of the art. Guess what it means. " Aikido is a martial art " ;)

Jim23
02-14-2001, 09:39 AM
I understand what you've said, but these are also DOs: Kendo, Judo, Karatedo, Hapkido, Taekwondo, Kyudo, etc.

I'm sure that most people who practice the above, claim to be climbing the same mountain and they all hope to reach the same summit.

Jim23 m(_ _)m

Dan Hover
02-14-2001, 09:47 AM
Aikilove wrote:
"Aikido wa budo de aru" This is a quote of the creater of the art. Guess what it means. " Aikido is a martial art " ;)

i dont think that is a correct translation as Budo does not mean Martial Art, at least not in Japanese.

Chris Li
02-14-2001, 04:23 PM
Dan Hover wrote:
Aikilove wrote:
"Aikido wa budo de aru" This is a quote of the creater of the art. Guess what it means. " Aikido is a martial art " ;)

i dont think that is a correct translation as Budo does not mean Martial Art, at least not in Japanese.

If you mean that "budo" doesn't mean "martial art" in the sense that "budo" doesn't mean "art of Mars" (as in the Roman god of war) then you're correct :-). In normal Japanese usage, however, "budo" is used pretty much the way that "martial art" is used in English, and "martial art" is a fairly standard and accepted translation for the word "budo".

Best,

Chris

Nick
02-14-2001, 04:38 PM
I agree... I've gotten some odd looks saying "Martial Way"...

Nick

Dan Hover
02-15-2001, 03:55 AM
yes you two are both right the we usually use the word Budo to mean martial arts, but that doesnt make it correct. In fact if you read up on the meaning of Bu and Satome has written an excellent essay on it, in the principles of Aikido. He is quite adamant about the common misusage of the term. What we find comfortable and easy to say doesnt denote correctness. we take the hard left instead of the easy right, and this is why we train to begin with. To make the sacrifices that go with living a martial way, a "do" form. Like I said it is more common to say budo and mean Martial arts, but budo is so much more.

Chris Li
02-15-2001, 05:23 AM
Dan Hover wrote:
yes you two are both right the we usually use the word Budo to mean martial arts, but that doesnt make it correct. In fact if you read up on the meaning of Bu and Satome has written an excellent essay on it, in the principles of Aikido. He is quite adamant about the common misusage of the term. What we find comfortable and easy to say doesnt denote correctness. we take the hard left instead of the easy right, and this is why we train to begin with. To make the sacrifices that go with living a martial way, a "do" form. Like I said it is more common to say budo and mean Martial arts, but budo is so much more.

I've read his essay, and in the sense that he's explaining Morihei Ueshiba's vision of "budo" it's quite interesting, but this is essentially a modern vision, and one that is specific to Aikido and a few of the other modern Japanese arts. In the historical sense of the term "budo" he's somewhat more off base.

His reading of the kanji "budo" as "stopping the spear" is largely metaphorical and is, in the literal sense, just wrong. The character reading "stop" actually meant, originally, "to proceed forward" (which is why that radical is used in so many kanji that refer to feet or actions with the feet). Therefore the original meaning of "bu" would be something more like "advance with a spear" (actually more of a halberd), which sounds like a pretty good description of war to me. If you think about the meaning in that way it makes a lot of sense, as the character was originally created in times where the only instance of "stopping the spear" would be if you stopped it in the belly of your enemy.

In any case, the whole "do"/"jutsu" thing was more or less exagerrated by Donn Draeger - most Japanese (even Japanese martial artists) will just give you blank stares if you ask them about the differences. It really started when Jigoro Kano started using it for "Judo" (it was already in use in other arts, but he probably put it over the top), but his reasons for doing so were really quite practical and basically involved a desire to distinguish his martial art from the rest of the pack.

Best,

Chris

Dan Hover
02-15-2001, 07:56 AM
more or less exaggerrated by Draeger??? that is a pretty bold statement considering just about everything we know about Koryu and the martial culture is largely owed to the path he had created and paved for us. And stumping a Japanese on the question of the difference between Budo/jutsu is about as easy as stumping someone on their own culture especially today is largely a moot point, as in most modern societies (america) being one of them we are largely ignorant of our culture and our beliefs until we are taken out of them. Much like a religious convert usually knows more about their religion than a native practioner. It is easy to take a critcal view of Draeger now, because we as a Martial arts culture are practicing and resting on the very legacy he paved the way for us, and most not all, are igorant of his contributions to the study and the research he and others have done for us, Ellis Amdur, Miek and Diane Skoss, Larry E. Bieri, Quintan Chambers, Dave Lowry these are all Martial artists we owe a debt to.

BC
02-15-2001, 10:07 AM
Thank you for saying that Dan, I totally agree with you. Regarding the translation of "budo", I think anyone is going to be hard pressed to be able to make a direct, linear translation of the term into English. As is common in many language barriers, there is simply no term in the English language which will capture the precise meaning of "budo". Just like trying to translate "ki", "mai" or "zenshin". You can scream into the wind as long and hard as you like, but some translations just aren't possible. This is one reason why the English language, like many others, is made up of a combination of words from other languages. I would propose we just accept terms like "budo" in their original tongue without attempting to distill their meanings down into two or three English words. IMHO.

Jim23
02-15-2001, 10:45 AM
I have a question for those in the know.

Some people say that aikido is a martial ART, others say it's a WAY and to others it's both. And everyone is pretty firm in their opinion.

Whenever the topic of competition comes up (and I'm not suggesting it should be adopted in aikido), most people are against it because they consider aikido to be an ART, not a sport or game and that there are potentially dangerous techniques involved.

Am I correct in saying that many people would consider judo a sport and perhaps more of a WAY (lethal techniques removed)? However, competition is allowed.

I basically know what the difference is between a WAY and an ART, but I still find it pretty confusing regarding aikido.

Can anyone clarify this for me? Does any of this make any sense?

Jim23
m(_ _)m

Magma
02-15-2001, 11:11 AM
Jim23 wrote:
Am I correct in saying that many people would consider judo a sport and perhaps more of a WAY (lethal techniques removed)? However, competition is allowed.

Jim23
m(_ _)m

I disagree, Jim. I don't think that an absence of lethal techniques makes a martial art into a martial way. Although, if you are saying that Judo is a Martial Way with the lethal techniques removed (hard to tell between these two interpretations of your post), I still disagree with you - and not only because I think a Martial Way necessarily has lethal applications in its techni-con. These techniques aid in the development of the deep respect for life that is one of the hallmarks of a Martial Way.

Really, I think that a Martial Way is more about the cultivation of the whole person. In judo, my understanding is that BECAUSE of the competition, BECAUSE people were going to be attempting techniques pursuant to their goal of "winning," certain techniques had to be disallowed for the threat of permanent or extensive damage to the one being thrown.

From that I raise two points:
1) Notice that the goal of the participant has become "winning"; or, more plainly, something other than personal development.
2) Notice also that the sport has begun to dictate what is left of the art. The art is being distilled through the schema of sport

Which is not to say that Judo is "bad," but I do think that that sort of attitude and logic is incompatible with the goal of a Way. Perhaps earlier in its lifespan Judo was closer to a Way, but I do disagree with Jim that presently most people consider it a Way as well as a sport... and if people do, I think they are wrong. Everybody's wrong. :D Everybody.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Dan Hover
02-15-2001, 11:27 AM
Jim this is a very hard question to answer as budo like Judo, Karate-do even TKD can vary from school to school, in their dealings of whether or not they are competitive or not. There are a lot of schools in Judo that although emphasize "randori" they do not actively compete. There are also a lot of Karate schools that do not compete as they are trying to emphasize the martial discipline of their particular style. Aikido in the mainline traditions tend to not want to compete as in the classical arts competition was strictly frowned upon as a style or ryu was only as good as its weakest link, and competing really did not make the ryu stronger as a whole. The modern styles such as Judo, Kendo, Karate-do, and aikido also have had to suffer the allied ban on Martial practices at the end of the war. This can not be overstated as with the Loss of the war, Japanese viewed budo quite negatively as this reminded them of the military build up. So with the sporting aspect added, it attracted popular support and when the ban was lifted the sporting aspect almost insured survivability. It is a tough question, but it isnt so black and white as we think it can be.

Jim23
02-15-2001, 12:45 PM
It is a tough question.

I really do understand the difference between a way and an art, although I don't think that sparring makes that much of a difference (although I do get the point). When I say sparring, however, I'm not talking about competitive judo or karate tournaments where everyone wants to be number one - that's for the birds.

What was on my mind was the argument that I've often heard, ie. that there is no competition in aikido (except Tomiki) because it was wrong ... AND that the techniques were too dangerous anyway (sort of implying that aikido was more of a martial art).

And Dan you're right about different schools taking different approaches. Years ago I did judo (before switching to karate) and found the class to be very much into tradition and the "way" aspects, far more than some of the aikido schools that I've been to.

I can also recall my Taekwondo instructor telling me stories of running barefoot in the snow and climbing mountains (Dung San) in Korea in order to nourish the spirit, build tenacity and "indomitable spirit".

It sure ain't black or white.

Jim23
m(_ _)m

BC
02-15-2001, 02:04 PM
Jim23 wrote:
Years ago I did judo (before switching to karate) and found the class to be very much into tradition and the "way" aspects, far more than some of the aikido schools that I've been to.


Jim23:

I'm just curious. Does this mean you've decided to start practicing aikido instead of jujutsu?

Jim23
02-15-2001, 02:32 PM
BC wrote:

I'm just curious. Does this mean you've decided to start practicing aikido instead of jujutsu?


m(_ _)m

Yes, I never really considered ju-jitsu although I was very impressed with the class I saw (it wasn't BJJ, it was in many ways very similiar to aikido, but it also incorporated kicks, punches, sparring [boxing/kicking with protection, but I didn't get a chance to see any], etc.). What actually happened was that I went to look at an aikido class and there was also a ju-jitsu class in the same building the next night, so I watched them both.

The real reason I chose not take the ju-jitsu was the fact that the students and teacher were TOO fit and a bit rough. They did almost an hour of circuit training (not weights) before the stretching and techniques. Blew my mind! Teenage girls through to guys in their forties.

However, in contrast, the aikido classes were far at the opposite end of the spectrum. I've trained in the martial arts (ways?) long enough, with excellent teachers, to know a bad class when I see one, regardless of style.

That's why I started that thread.

Jim23

Chris Li
02-15-2001, 04:24 PM
Dan Hover wrote:
more or less exaggerrated by Draeger??? that is a pretty bold statement considering just about everything we know about Koryu and the martial culture is largely owed to the path he had created and paved for us.

I wasn't belittling his accomplishments, I was saying that his his use of the do/jutsu classification was exagerrated. Just because someone accomplishes a great many things or was the first to accomplish something doesn't mean that they can't be wrong about something.

And stumping a Japanese on the question of the difference between Budo/jutsu is about as easy as stumping someone on their own culture especially today is largely a moot point, as in most modern societies (america) being one of them we are largely ignorant of our culture and our beliefs until we are taken out of them.

Well, I'm not just talking about your average Japanese person, but about experienced Japanese martial artists, even those in traditional lineages. Western martial artists, primarily because of Donn Draeger's influence, tend to make a very clear disticinction between "jutsu" and "do". For Japanese martial artists (most of whom have probably never heard of Donn Draeger) the difference is much less clearly defined.

It is easy to take a critcal view of Draeger now, because we as a Martial arts culture are practicing and resting on the very legacy he paved the way for us, and most not all, are igorant of his contributions to the study and the research he and others have done for us, Ellis Amdur, Miek and Diane Skoss, Larry E. Bieri, Quintan Chambers, Dave Lowry these are all Martial artists we owe a debt to.

Certainly we do. But just because we owe a debt to, for example, Issac Newton, doesn't mean that physics ends with his theories, or that he was correct on all fronts.

Best,

Chris

Aikilove
02-16-2001, 09:21 AM
Hi Dan! As people have said already, When O-sensei made that statement I believe it was to answer a question if aikido was a budo/bujutsu or something else. And he said it indeed was budo. Then how to define budo is not something I'm the best man to do. But in my mind O-sensei wanted to clarify that Aikido is a WAY of perform martial ART :p

Dan Hover
02-17-2001, 01:51 PM
Chris Li wrote:
[QUOTE]


His reading of the kanji "budo" as "stopping the spear" is largely metaphorical and is, in the literal sense, just wrong. The character reading "stop" actually meant, originally, "to proceed forward" (which is why that radical is used in so many kanji that refer to feet or actions with the feet). Therefore the original meaning of "bu" would be something more like "advance with a spear" (actually more of a halberd), which sounds like a pretty good description of war to me. If you think about the meaning in that way it makes a lot of sense, as the character was originally created in times where the only instance of "stopping the spear" would be if you stopped it in the belly of your enemy.

Best,

Chris


Okay I thought about this one for awhile, and so I did some checking the character of Bu for those of you who dont know is made up of two Kanji, the character on the inside is TOMERU meaning to prevent, the character on the outside HOKO meaning conflict. This is how Saotome a Native Japanese person has written about it in His "Principles of Aikido" book, in which Chris says is "just wrong" So I checked with another Native Japanese person Masayuki Shimabukuro an iaido teacher who also says the same as above in regards to the two characters. Then I checked with John Stevens, Author, Interpertor/ Translator and budoka, Larry E. Bieri Author, Interpeter/Translator, budoka, Donn F. Draeger, who we all know about, and I also checked an English Japanese Dictionary. Which States that TOMERU the character that you are referring to as SHI which is indeed a pictograph of a foot, means a Planted Foot, as in stopped. Now SHI means stopped and TOMERU means prevent, and HOKO means conflict. So I am at a loss on how two Native Japanese speakers, three interpetors/Translators, all highly regarded budoka in their own right and a english Japanese Kanji Dictionary can all be "just wrong". I have included the link to the Kanji page for those of you who want to check. http://www.joyo96.org/cgi-bin/henshall.pl?hen=129

Although the character in DO or MICHI has the same deriviative form (ashi) for foot or movement as this is a pictograph of an ankle and foot from the side. The character DO means way or path of, and this would make sense to have the radical for movement inside the character for Way or Path of. Or am I "just Wrong"?

Chris Li
02-17-2001, 05:34 PM
Dan Hover wrote:
Chris Li wrote:
[QUOTE]


His reading of the kanji "budo" as "stopping the spear" is largely metaphorical and is, in the literal sense, just wrong. The character reading "stop" actually meant, originally, "to proceed forward" (which is why that radical is used in so many kanji that refer to feet or actions with the feet). Therefore the original meaning of "bu" would be something more like "advance with a spear" (actually more of a halberd), which sounds like a pretty good description of war to me. If you think about the meaning in that way it makes a lot of sense, as the character was originally created in times where the only instance of "stopping the spear" would be if you stopped it in the belly of your enemy.

Best,

Chris


Okay I thought about this one for awhile, and so I did some checking the character of Bu for those of you who dont know is made up of two Kanji, the character on the inside is TOMERU meaning to prevent, the character on the outside HOKO meaning conflict.

Well, this radical ("hoko") is used in kanji referring to conflicts, but the original meaning is "spear" (actually referring to a very old chinese weapon with a double edged blade).


This is how Saotome a Native Japanese person has written about it in His "Principles of Aikido" book, in which Chris says is "just wrong" So I checked with another Native Japanese person Masayuki Shimabukuro an iaido teacher who also says the same as above in regards to the two characters. Then I checked with John Stevens, Author, Interpertor/ Translator and budoka, Larry E. Bieri Author, Interpeter/Translator, budoka, Donn F. Draeger, who we all know about, and I also checked an English Japanese Dictionary. Which States that TOMERU the character that you are referring to as SHI which is indeed a pictograph of a foot, means a Planted Foot, as in stopped. Now SHI means stopped and TOMERU means prevent, and HOKO means conflict. So I am at a loss on how two Native Japanese speakers, three interpetors/Translators, all highly regarded budoka in their own right and a english Japanese Kanji Dictionary can all be "just wrong". I have included the link to the Kanji page for those of you who want to check. http://www.joyo96.org/cgi-bin/henshall.pl?hen=129


I haven't been around as long as those guys, but I've been a professional translator for over 5 years, and lived and worked in Japan (and in Japanese) for twice that.

There's a pretty good article covering just this topic in a back issue of Aikido Today Magazine written by Kazuaki Tanahashi - a student of Morihei Ueshiba, calligrapher, and one of the translators of 2-dai doshu's original "Aikido".

To make a long story short, the meaning that you see in the dictionary is the modern usage (another modern usage is "kill", by the way). The original usage (when the character was originally created) was as I stated originally.

"Shi" and "tomeru" are different readings for the same character.

Mitsugi Saotome's translation of the word is "wrong" in that (as I said originally) that it is not a literal transposition of the meaning of the characters. What he (and others) are talking about is an "interpretation" of the characters which is something slightly different, and is something that Japanese people love to do. What I was talking about was the literal meaning of the character, which was created in China and really had nothing to do with resolving conflict (unless it was resolved at the point of a sword).


Although the character in DO or MICHI has the same deriviative form (ashi) for foot or movement as this is a pictograph of an ankle and foot from the side. The character DO means way or path of, and this would make sense to have the radical for movement inside the character for Way or Path of. Or am I "just Wrong"?

Well, I'm not sure how this is related to the discussion above, but "do" is composed of "shinyo", which means "advance" and "kubi", which means "neck". In this case the character for "kubi" is signifying something that is long and narrow (ie, a road). So, "do" would mean "movement along something long and narrow", which signifies a road.

Best,

Chris