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Iwama_Ryu
01-23-2001, 02:08 AM
I wonder what the the Aikido where you compete is called i looked in some books but haven't found anything.

orenb
01-23-2001, 03:53 AM
It's called Tomiki Aikido

Oren

Magma
01-23-2001, 09:55 AM
And for those of us who have never seen an Aikido competition (wow, some oxymorons are just PAINFUL on the ears), can someone describe what the "events" are? Maybe "Who can meditate deeper?" Or how about "Who can stand there the longest while waiting for the other person to attack?" Maybe it's like figure skating and you get judged on how pretty of a technique you can throw... "Sorry, your uke's feet came apart on that dismount, that's a two-tenths deduction." How about a fashion show? You know, see who looks best in their gi, or hakama - ooh, maybe there's different divisions for mu- and yudansha - sounds silly, huh? That's the way competitions strike me.

OK, so maybe I already have an opinion on this, but I'd still like to know what goes on at a tournament.

Tim

Nick
01-23-2001, 10:50 AM
I believe the way it works is that one is given a rubber knife, and the other must disarm him. Points are awarded based on the knifed person being successful, or a disarm. I disagree with competition in Aikido... when I get on the mat, I have to compete with myself, and that's enough for now.

Nick

dainippon99
01-23-2001, 05:21 PM
As Tomiki sensei said, "competition is the candy to a child." He only meant for it to entice younger as well as older people, men as well as women. ONce they were hooked, he would show them his true intent. He never beleived that competition should be EMPHASISED in aikido. In a tournament, there are many sections. in randori, or free play, there is tanto shiai (one person has a tanto and can score, called tsuki-ari, by stabbing the other player. then there is toshu shiai, which involves both players barehanded. Full techniques from either player are called ippon (4 points). techniques that are almost full, but the player executing the technique loses his balance, is called waza-ari (2 points). IN tanto, if the player does not move off the line of attack, he is issued a warning (taisabaki shido).The other category is kata. Each participant is judged on his timing, technical ability, and posture, among other things. All you traditional people sure like to rip on shodokan, and i have heard about how in the specific dojo so and so has visited, the atmosphere was one of a need to win at all costs. This may be so, but one dojo hardly represents the whole style. I surely wouldnt judge yoshinkan as brutal if i went to a dojo and saw an injury. Or any style for that matter. At the last national tournament i went to, there was not once that i didnt see the competitors hug before they left the mat. You truly make good freinds after competition, and you pick up their personal aiki-waza to complement yours.There was a feeling of harmony and freindship. While i personally dont feel the need to compete in randori, i love to make freinds. Isnt that one of aikido's many facets?

Nick
01-23-2001, 06:27 PM
To each his own, I guess. I simply feel that defeating myself will be much harder than defeating anyone else, and I've made plenty of friends in my dojo. But if it's what you like to do, I have to respect it, even if I disagree with it.

Nick

DiNalt
01-23-2001, 10:51 PM
Nick wrote:
To each his own, I guess. I simply feel that defeating myself will be much harder than defeating anyone else, and I've made plenty of friends in my dojo. But if it's what you like to do, I have to respect it, even if I disagree with it.

Nick

Shouldn't Tomiki Aikido be called Tomiki Aikijitsu, at the most ?

Making a competitive art out of Aikido feels like it would feel to see God create Adam and Eve and then immediately put them into a Jerry Springer show and make them throw chairs at each other.

dainippon99
01-24-2001, 03:41 PM
First off,
Kisshomaru Ueshiba urged tomiki not to call his art aikido, because, first of all, tomiki didnt study aikido. He studied Daito ryu under o-sensei. THere are many techniques in tomiki aikido that i do not see in any other aikido style.Kisshomaru Ueshiba said that he would support tomiki in his choice to change the name, but tomiki never did (not certain why.) And the competition issue makes it stand out form traditional aikido as well.(i personally feel tomiki aikido to be closer to aikijujutsu. I have always gotten a more martial feel from my training.)
Second,
Tomiki never intended for aikido to become a sport. He never wanted aikido to deteriorate into sport. In shodokan aikido, we look at it this way : kata is the classroom, randori is the laboratory. In tomiki's randori and shiai, one is forced to study the techniques and basics to make any technique work, thus elevating his waza. I suggest to anyone interested in this any further, to read diane skoss's article on this very website.

I come on a bit strong, but i truly am only meaning to dispell some bad impressions. i value all your opinions. Truly.
"the purpose of conflict is harmony."

Matt Banks
01-24-2001, 04:10 PM
I know many tomiki schools which scrubbed out competion, cus they know what it does to the art.

Someone said that Kenjin Tomiki didnt study Aikido but Aikijujutsu under o-sensei. This is not true, Kenjin Tomiki recieved a 9th dan from osensei, he is the highest aikido grade ON PAPER apart from osensei. He was very good, what he created some may think not.



Matt Banks

dainippon99
01-24-2001, 04:17 PM
Actually, kenji tomiki studied aikijujutsu and aiki budo. he recieved the mokuroku from o-sensei, which was later said to be equal to 8TH dan (his actual dan grade). Since he was still a practitioner when the art became aikido, his rank was converted to dan, and he bacame the first 8th dan in aikido history. he was one of ueshibas first students (his second i believe), and left ueshiba to teach before the art became known as aikido.

dainippon99
01-24-2001, 04:25 PM
im sorry, tomiki sensei actually acquired the menkyo kaiden from o-sensei. This is said to equal 8th dan.menkyo kaiden signifies that the student has mastered all that the sensei has taught him.

Brian
01-24-2001, 04:58 PM
I'm only going to post on this once, for the sake of avoiding turning this into a debate of some sort.

To those who think the randori in Tomiki aikido is harmful to aikido...

Competition may be harmful to your aikido, but not to mine, or to someone else who practices Tomiki style. If you lean more toward seeing aikido as a philosophy/spiritual discipline as well as a martial art, I can clearly understand why this may be harmful to your aikido. If, however, you lean more toward seeing aikido as a martial art than as a philosophy/spiritual discipline, chances are competition won't be harmful to you. It all depends on your outlook, your standpoint.

Nick put it best when he wrote "to each his own." I, too, am only stating my opinion, and respect your views if you think competition is harmful. I disagree, but your opinion is just as good as my own.

dainippon99
01-24-2001, 05:01 PM
i agree with brian. i feel that "bob-kido" (my own personal aikido) is more martial than most, so the spiritual part of aikido isnt on the top of my priority list yet. yet.

Sam
01-26-2001, 08:04 AM
This is probably the biggest argument people who practise different types of aikido can have.
I practise tomiki aikido. Therefore I support randori or 'free-play'
I can understand why traditional students do not agree with the idea of competition. But it is not really competition as someone trying to beat another person at all costs as you would imagine. This is not what tomiki sensei intended. The philosphy is that when you apply a technique to somebody who does not want that technique to work they will move to render it ineffecive (do not read as strength or aggressive wrestling) this movement makes another technique more appropriate (rather than trying to force the technique to work) because the position of each player has now changed. This now is free-play - you may have experienced it during jiyu-waza by accident. Free-play is all competition is. Tomiki sensei went to great lengths to refine the rules of free-play to make it seem as un-competitive as possible whilst enabling students to learn throught its practise. This is the idea of introducting a tanto to generate initial movement - it is a learning tool. As a Professor of physical education at Waseda University Tomiki sensei was in a unique environment in which to study the benefits of free-play
This is what I teach and I believe it opens the mind of the student. Of course randori is only the next step after learning appropriate technique in a formal environment.
I know that some of you will always be horrified at the idea of free-play, but please view it as it was intended and not how you imagine it to be.

jedd
01-26-2001, 09:59 AM
I am a beginner in this art (8th kyu Yoshinkan) and from what I have experienced and discussed with my seniors competition is not encouraged as it would be too dangerous. I have seen techniques perfomed at high speed and if the person(s) involved are not adequately trained I could forsee devastating injuries. This, for me, is not the way of Aikido. Above all, have fun!!

BC
01-26-2001, 10:43 AM
Matt Banks wrote:
This is not true, Kenjin Tomiki recieved a 9th dan from osensei, he is the highest aikido grade ON PAPER apart from osensei. He was very good, what he created some may think not.
Matt Banks

Actually, Koichi Tohei Sensei received his 10th dan certificate from O Sensei, so he was the highest grade on paper received while still living. Regards.