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Chuck Clark
06-19-2000, 09:36 AM
Hello everyone,

I understand that this is a touchy subject for many who use the internet, but I would like to address this here.

I'm kinda "old fashioned" and persnikerty, I guess, but I really like knowing who I'm communicating with about budo issues. General chat groups, etc. are a bit different in my book. I can see where some folks like to have an "alter ego" persona to have some "fun" or to protect themselves from the weirdos on the net. I think this sort of venue is different.

There's no way we can keep someone from misrepresenting themselves on the web, but after some time around budo... you can tell who's "full of it."

E-Budo.com requires (but doesn't enforce it much) it's members to identify themselves and sign their name to posts. Most do, and some don't.

I, personally, don't give much credulence to a post that someone isn't willing to stand behind with their name and lineage.

How do the other members of AikiWeb Forum feel about this?

Regards,

benny
06-19-2000, 12:50 PM
I agree with Chuck. Knowing who you're talking to is important because it makes the whole thing seem less impersonal, which is just what's needed in this type of internet-based chat. Also, I think that the kind of person who visits aikiweb won't have anything to hide, so why not register and put it all down?

Erik
06-22-2000, 11:32 AM
I have posted anonymously for a variety of reasons in other newsgroups: I didn't want my identity or known viewpoints to get in the way of the response; I didn't want to get flamed off the board; I was embarassed by my question and I'm sure there are many more that I'm not thinking about. It doesn't hurt a damn thing.

Chuck, could you clarify the matter of lineage and why it's something you are interested in? My knee-jerk is a BIG HUGE NO! Keep everyone on as much of an equal footing as we can and lineage, rank, or whatever might discourage that. We are all people who share an interest in the art of Aikido. Isn't that enough?

Having said that, perhaps you could clarify your thoughts on the matter. Maybe you have a line of thought that could win me over.

By the way, my last name is Haselhofer. I didn't register it because Erik is a lot easier to type.

Chuck Clark
06-22-2000, 04:40 PM
Erik,

I suppose it's kinda the same reason I won't talk to someone on the phone if they don't tell me who it is. I think there's such a thing as manners and curtesy.

One of the things I have experienced for many years in the dojo and most everywhere else is the individual who has an intellectual concept that makes "sense" to the person but it isn't based on actual experience. They often speak with feigned authority that you'd pick up instantly in person. The internet discussion groups are full of em.

I am interested in sincere questions and communications of someone's experience or the result of research that has basis in fact and real experience. If you actually have the sorts of fears and discomfort about your questions, etc., that you mentioned, you might just hang it all out in the open and give up worrying about what anyone else might think and you'll develop some real authority. That sort of authority is not given to you by an outside source, it just comes from real experience.

I guess it comes down to the fact that I just like to know who I'm talking with. I do not care for anonymous communications of any kind unless you're at war or some such thing. I recognize your right to be different.

Regards,

Mike Collins
06-22-2000, 05:24 PM
I prefer to post if not completely anonymously, then certainly behind a curtain primarily because my opinions may not be the same as my teachers'. I wish neither to offend them nor embarrass them.

My peers already know what I think (I'm that kind of guy). My experience is only peripherally germaine to my opinion.

Erik
06-22-2000, 06:36 PM
I guess it comes down to the fact that I just like to know who I'm talking with. I do not care for anonymous communications of any kind unless you're at war or some such thing. I recognize your right to be different.

I find this answer perfectly acceptable.

Having said that, I think it's critical to nurture a person's freedom of expression and if they feel the need to be anonymous we should allow them that.

One recent example of the value of anonymity comes to mind. I was part of an open discussion (all ranks) on the topic of Aikido. Essentially what's going on in your Aikido. It was a good honest discussion where people shot straight, clean and expressed their opinion.

However, when Bob Nadeau wandered in, things immediately changed. The conversation turned to "gee, Sensei, what do you think about ...". I might as well have gone to sleep at that point. The discussion was over.

I'm not implying that Bob intentionally did this, rather his presence assured this would happen. Conditioning took over. It's so damn subtle and most of the time we are not even aware of it. Had no one known who Bob was, the discussion would have continued.

giriasis
06-23-2000, 02:29 AM
What do you want to know about some one? If you want to know then ask. Those who choose to respond will. Those who don't, oh well.

But once something gets to an email level, I tend to open up more. E-mail to me is more like a telephone call. These forums are more like bulletin boards where you can post a flyer or leaflet.

I prefer to remain slightly anonymous on the internet. What I mean by "slightly anonymous" is that when the information is relevant to what I am posting about then I will tell a little something about myself. But I do not feel secure and letting lose all my personal information in my bio page.

Also I have noticed from my experience in posting in other forums is that it takes time to develop a certain amount of trust between people on the boards. Once the trust is there people tend to open up more.

Norman
06-24-2000, 04:47 PM
Here is a site with pictures of me that I've compiled to let people get a better sense of who I am.

http://people.ne.mediaone.net/normanharvey/Norm.htm

Chuck Clark
06-24-2000, 06:04 PM
Thanks, Norman

Great pictures! My Dad was a blacksmith. He apprenticed to a local smith in NE Oklahoma when he was a youngster in 1914 and worked on the farm and in the blacksmith's shop until he was 30 years old. I think he really valued those years and his time working at the forge and anvil.

Thanks,

Russell Davis
09-08-2009, 07:26 PM
Hi Chuck,
I feel the same way too, my other pet hate is submitting a serious post, only to have some people tell me Im 13 years old and worse. for the record Im 51.

Marc Abrams
09-08-2009, 08:29 PM
Chuck:

I think that we come from a different generation where we expect people to be up front with who they are from the outset. We did not have the internet growing up. We had to type a letter or speak on a phone. The age of the internet brings a new set of expectations that come with only being able to observe someone's writings.

I would also like to know who I am communicating with. If a person is a keyboard warrior, then have the personal integrity to say so. If a person has an opinion that may be different from their teacher, then stand behind your own opinion. If the consequences can be bad for doing that, then post anonymously and let people know why you are doing so.

We are not the sum of our opinions, so we should be able to let ourselves and our opinions be known without the mistaken belief that our acceptance by others is based solely upon our opinions. If we are not willing to put our opinions out there, then we deny ourselves the opportunity to learn from valuable feedback. Our opinions are formed by who we are. Hiding our identity from our opinions denies others to best understand where our opinions come from, thereby limiting the effectiveness of the feedback that we could receive.

Marc Abrams

DonMagee
09-08-2009, 09:13 PM
I guess it comes down to the fact that I just like to know who I'm talking with. I do not care for anonymous communications of any kind unless you're at war or some such thing. I recognize your right to be different.

I find this answer perfectly acceptable.

Having said that, I think it's critical to nurture a person's freedom of expression and if they feel the need to be anonymous we should allow them that.

One recent example of the value of anonymity comes to mind. I was part of an open discussion (all ranks) on the topic of Aikido. Essentially what's going on in your Aikido. It was a good honest discussion where people shot straight, clean and expressed their opinion.

However, when Bob Nadeau wandered in, things immediately changed. The conversation turned to "gee, Sensei, what do you think about ...". I might as well have gone to sleep at that point. The discussion was over.

I'm not implying that Bob intentionally did this, rather his presence assured this would happen. Conditioning took over. It's so damn subtle and most of the time we are not even aware of it. Had no one known who Bob was, the discussion would have continued.

This is why I dislike the western concept of Sensei and why I refuse to let anyone who trains with me call me sensei (besides the fact I'm not a black belt). To most westerners, sensei, master, etc defines some kind of role where you are a subordinate taking orders from a superior. I don't feel my teachers are superior to me, they are just like me, they simply know more about something I am interested in learning it.

It is ok to question teachers, in fact it is encouraged, Sensei however, not so much.

Chuck Clark
09-08-2009, 09:13 PM
Whoa! I'm amazed to see this thread come alive. I would write the same thing today. Being responsible for honesty in the kata is part of what makes it real. I agree with your last paragraph above Marc. Without honest give and take... well, as one of my old buds in the Corps used to say (and at least three well-known budo teachers), "It's like j**kin off and thinkin your havin sex. It might feel good, but it ain't productive." Please excuse the Gyreen vernacular.

I had completely forgotten this old thread.Thanks, Russell for jump starting my memory.

Best Regards,

Chuck Clark
09-08-2009, 09:19 PM
To my great joy, Mike Collins and I and many others have become close friends since this thread started. I'm glad they shared their names here.

Best regards,

NagaBaba
09-08-2009, 09:45 PM
How do the other members of AikiWeb Forum feel about this?

Regards,
Hello Chuck,

Even if your intentions are good, the results of such approach i.e. in Ebudo are very clear: there is almost no discussion anymore.

In the other hand, even if some folks give their full name but their discussion is a kind of marketing (aikidojournal, 'internal skill' supporters etc...) to promote some business, or have hidden agenda I'm instantly loosing interest in such discussion.

I think what is most important to maintain a good level on discussion forum is the 'authenticity' of discussion. You can 'feel' it just by reading, because you have a lot of experience. For beginners it is of course very difficult.

If you feel it is TRUE, that this person is honest, I think the real name doesn't matter. The `old timers` must be always somehow `challenged` by young wolves, this way a good dynamic is created on the forum.

Kind regards

Chuck Clark
09-08-2009, 09:56 PM
I agree that there must be challenge for us all to learn. However, I can't see where hiding your name helps the quality of your knowledge and your courage in questioning others in a healthy manner.

I understand the marketing angles. It's there and marketing works or people wouldn't do it. At least the names are there, unless you're Nodan or some such nonsense.

Please drop in if you're ever in the area. It would be a good time.

Best regards,

Janet Rosen
09-08-2009, 10:18 PM
Weird how many years old threads are getting new action....

Kevin Leavitt
09-08-2009, 10:35 PM
Yes I agree! well 9 years ago we had Aikido-L and this new thing called Aikiweb.

Now we have Facebook as well. I can tell you that I have really enjoyed getting to know many of the folks on here that are now my "Facebook Friends" as well. Seeing them outside the context of aikiweb.

gdandscompserv
09-08-2009, 10:48 PM
I, personally, don't give much credulence to a post that someone isn't willing to stand behind with their name and lineage.
Hello Chuck,
I know your name but not your lineage. Please share.
Ricky

Kevin Leavitt
09-08-2009, 11:11 PM
if you hit the home page button under Chuck's profile you can view his lineage etc.

http://www.jiyushinkai.org/

dalen7
09-09-2009, 01:41 AM
Some good post and all legit from one point of view or another.

Personally what I dont like is when a forum decides to switch to first and last name and it messes up users accounts and they have to start from scratch. [seen it happen]

What is the hang up of wanting to have both first and last name? You may see more of the 'real' person and their opinions behind an alias. [though I just tend to be straight forward with what I think regardless.]

As far as bogus claims, as the original person said, its pretty easy to spot. [i.e., "I trained with Jet Lee for the past 6 years in secret, etc."] LOL.

Seriously though, to what extent does lineage even matter, you learn a lot from someone just by what they say and their descriptions. Sure lineage helps you pick out style, but it doesnt equate to skill. ;)

Example:
My instructor is Z. Tamas, 1st Dan, 11 years or so of 'training'. [how much has he trained vs. teaching, I have no idea.]
The sensei responsible for us lives about 2 hours away and I see him at 3/4 day seminars once or twice a year along with about 3 other senseis. His name is Imre Marton, 4th Dan.

Now here is where it gets tricky.
From how I understand the chain of command, his leader is Rudolf someone, 5th Dan.
Never met him, only seen a pic of him on the web. And from what I saw and know of Imre Marton, I can bet Imre doesnt learn from the guy. Sensei Marton seems to be much more active with teaching, training - practice in general. He has a black belt in Judo, Iaido, etc.. [not sure his other qualifications, if any.]

Not only that but a search on the web brought up good comments from a group in the former yugoslovia who were impressed with Imre Martons abilities. Ironically he doesnt have a website [that I could find], but he is quite active. [he is listed on sites, but no club specific site.]

And above him and this Rudolf guy is Tamura Sensei.
Now you have to ask yourself the question, to what extent is lineage important? I mean Tamura Sensei hands out the degrees and must be impressed with his students, but its not like hes hanging out in Hungary training on a constant basis with anyone.

Makes me wonder how everyone got to where they are now. [be fun to know from a historical background I suppose.]

But point is, I bet that a lot of the style depends on the individual instructor and not on his sensei. They adapt it to themselves.
I already know in the 2+ years I have done Aikido I am adapting it to what fits me. Aikido is pretty flexible and fluid in that way.

Again, it seems more relevant what someone post vs. their lineage, though lineage may give a faint clue as to background style. Suppose with something like yoshinkan its more clear cut.

If someone is bogus they will only be able to make up stories without any descriptions etc. So not sure thats even a problem, they provide the entertainment. :)

Oh, to add to the lineage bit. My instructor doesnt consistently show up, so a lot of the teaching comes from 1st kyus. [This is why my training has been so awkward and I have had to take it upon myself to scour the web for info as well as go train with a 2nd kyu in another city to try to remotely be prepared for the test I took, as well as taking a couple of taped private lessons.]

I suppose from that last paragraph somone may say, "well we know how well you know Aikido". Truth is, having had to think all that more through it has made it deeper perhaps than if it was just handed to me. [The Hungarian language making it even more a challenge]

So to some extent lineage is just a tool, not a bad tool, which can tell new people if its a fake or not... or at least try to assure them that the person does have some kind of 'legit' training. But even then it should become apparent to the observant if it works or doesnt work. The guys I train with I try to make sure they know and feel why a technique does or does not work. I let them know that my main issue has been with my center in the past, and trying to 'reach' with techniques, etc.

Anyway, Ive babbled on enough. LOL.

Peace

dAlen

eyrie
09-09-2009, 06:11 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong Jun, but isn't it a requirement of the Aikiweb registration process, that everyone is supposed to provide their real name? And that the only forum that people can post to anonymously (without logging in) is in the Anonymous forum?

Frankly, I don't see how a person's anonymity makes any difference to the quality of the post. That's clearly self-evident. In fact, it takes a lot of courage to post, and far more courage and character to question and debate in a healthy manner.

To be honest, I've never met 99.999% of the people posting here. Even so, there are some whom I respect, some I feel that if we were to meet in person, we would become instant friends, others I have no feelings either way (sorry, but I don't know you well enough yet.. give it time), and some... just because I don't respond to you directly, doesn't mean you're on my ignore list.... ;)

Dennis Hooker
09-09-2009, 07:26 AM
I post as me. I say what I think and I whish there was a why for people in budo to be held to the The Stolen Valor Act of 2005 when talking about their many feats and achievements (in their minds) but that is not possible.

Dennis Hooker

Marc Abrams
09-09-2009, 07:46 AM
I post as me. I say what I think and I whish there was a why for people in budo to be held to the The Stolen Valor Act of 2005 when talking about their many feats and achievements (in their minds) but that is not possible.

Dennis Hooker

Dennis:

Are you trying to denigrate the achievements of all of those keyboard warriors :eek: ! They are the front line in the cyberwar we call forums :D .

Marc Abrams

ruthmc
09-09-2009, 08:12 AM
I agree it's best to post as yourself, and most dojo are not so backwards as to think that anything you post as your own personal opinion bears any reflection upon them..

However, it is possible to get your id. hacked and for somebody else to post using your name. It happened to me years ago on Aikido_L. I still don't know who did it, but it proved a point - you don't know for sure who said what unless you're face to face with them!

The internet is a good thing, but it is not to be taken anywhere near as seriously as most folk take it ;)

Ruth

Shadowfax
09-09-2009, 09:10 AM
I've used the Alias, Shadowfax, for quite a few years now on multiple forums. Its kinda just who I am now. Mainly those forums pertained to horses and horse training and I have made quite a few very good friendships as well as getting a pretty decent reputation as a trimmer and trainer all without giving away my identity unless I chose specifically to do so in private.

I don't particularly have a problem with this forum requiring real names but I have to admit it makes me think pretty hard about my posts before I say anything. After all my sensei and some of my fellow students also frequent this forum. In most cases that is a good thing. E-budo takes it a bit far IMHO in requiring you to put your real name into your siggy line before they let you register. Considering they are asking for your real name as your user name it seems a bit overkill to me.

sammywhip
09-09-2009, 10:01 AM
I don't particularly have a problem with this forum requiring real names but I have to admit it makes me think pretty hard about my posts before I say anything. After all my sensei and some of my fellow students also frequent this forum.

I'm watching you! :D

mjhacker
09-09-2009, 12:28 PM
I, personally, don't give much credulence to a post that someone isn't willing to stand behind with their name and lineage.

How do the other members of AikiWeb Forum feel about this?
NO! I ain't gonna do it, and you cain't make me!

(oh crap. nevermind.)

Chuck Clark
09-09-2009, 12:32 PM
Good morning Michael... :D

mjhacker
09-09-2009, 12:34 PM
I have to admit it makes me think pretty hard about my posts before I say anything.
This is exactly the point.

lbb
09-09-2009, 12:47 PM
Weird how many years old threads are getting new action....

Seems like it's Russell.

mjhacker
09-09-2009, 12:49 PM
Good morning Michael... :D
Mornin', Sir. I had lots of great training with Tarik and his folks last week. I can't wait to get back up there.

YogaRen
09-09-2009, 12:58 PM
NO! I ain't gonna do it, and you cain't make me!

(oh crap. nevermind.)

Such a trouble maker this one..

I am Karen, I am from Texas. I just started practicing Jiyushinkai Aikibudo with an incredibly talented Sensei in North Houston TX.

It's all Michael's fault.

Janet Rosen
09-09-2009, 01:17 PM
It's all Michael's fault.

...fast learner, this one :-)

YogaRen
09-09-2009, 01:37 PM
...fast learner, this one :-)

I have excellent mentors.

mjhacker
09-09-2009, 01:41 PM
...fast learner, this one :-)
Instigator.

mathewjgano
09-09-2009, 01:43 PM
It's been a little bit of a transition for me and I both enjoy and dislike the pressure I feel from having my name attached to everything I say here. I used to use internet forums as my personal little social experiment. I wouldn't say I was ever really a troll because I would respond to arguments directly, but I did enjoy the freedom anonymity provided when playing devil's advocate...and I really enjoyed playing devil's advocate a lot. I find myself still doing it without intending to much of time. I would say that over time it became a little too easy to rely on that and to spit out the first thing off the top of my head. That's why essentially all my chat interactions now take place on Aikiweb (it's you folks actually, I really enjoy the people here). The fact that most of us are who we say we are makes me think a bit more about what my responses are and that's sharpened my written communication a bit. Plus, we still have the option to post anonymously, so as I see it we've the best of both worlds.

mjhacker
09-09-2009, 01:48 PM
... but I did enjoy the freedom anonymity provided when playing devil's advocate...
Imagine the true freedom that speaking your heart under your real name gives you. My teacher, seniors, juniors, and peers have been able to read everything I've said for the last 15+ years, and they've always known it was me.

If you (vous) fear consequences for speaking your mind, you (again, vous) might want to re-evaluate some things.

mathewjgano
09-09-2009, 02:14 PM
If you (vous) fear consequences for speaking your mind, you (again, vous) might want to re-evaluate some things.

Merci!
I would say my comfort in not speaking my mind freely comes more from some practical experiences growing up than from fear itself. In fact, I grew up being very up front with my views on things...often at the expense of appearing cool. Peer pressure has never been much of a problem for me, at any rate. As a youngster I found I could speak my opinions more clearly once I had some understanding about the other person. Of course the irony is that this tact requires others to speak their minds while I safely keep mine in reserve...which isn't always very fair, even if it is often "safe".

Janet Rosen
09-09-2009, 04:40 PM
Instigator.
{rei}
In all seriousness, I've never posted anonomously anywhere. Once, early on in my training, there was a very sticky situation locally I had nobody to turn to - it was pre-aikiweb - and I emailed a trusted aikido-L buddy who was very far away geographically, totally disconnected politically, and we discussed it in a foreign language for good measure :-)
But here, I really do consider this off the mat training for staying balanced and focused in the sense of trying to express myself in a way that respects others and that expresses my thoughts cogently and consisely. It would never occur to me to write something here that I would not post on a public billboard in my hometown.

Chuck Clark
09-09-2009, 05:05 PM
...and many of us know who you are by your genuine posts and the person that we interact with in person is the same (really Better!).

I'm really glad that you're training where you're at now.

Jeffrey Tanaka
09-09-2009, 07:07 PM
I once went to a lecture entitled "The Nature of Art" it ended up being a lecture on the question "is it important to know the background of the artist to appreciate his art." The general consensus was no. That art is trancedent even beyond the artist itself. Rare good art contains some universality to those that appreciate it. I would like think truth and validity have the same qualities. That if a post seems truthful, it should not matter what lineage the poster comes from, how much or what type of experience they have, or whether they use their real name or not. I have the opportunity to judge it as true according to my own life experiences. Granted you may weight truth differently according to many different factors. There are clearly certain posters that I look to for their opinion on specific aspects of Aikido. I may garner bits of truth from a post rather than accept the whole post as true. Buy by and large, good posts should stand on their own. Hopefully transcend the poster.

I once had a three year old tell me my fly was open. Dang if he wasn't Right! :)

P.S. I've neglected to introduce myself to this site so I will do so along with my experience in the intro section.

Jeffrey Tanaka

mathewjgano
09-09-2009, 10:48 PM
I once went to a lecture entitled "The Nature of Art" it ended up being a lecture on the question "is it important to know the background of the artist to appreciate his art." The general consensus was no. That art is trancedent even beyond the artist itself. Rare good art contains some universality to those that appreciate it. I would like think truth and validity have the same qualities. That if a post seems truthful, it should not matter what lineage the poster comes from, how much or what type of experience they have, or whether they use their real name or not. I have the opportunity to judge it as true according to my own life experiences. Granted you may weight truth differently according to many different factors. There are clearly certain posters that I look to for their opinion on specific aspects of Aikido. I may garner bits of truth from a post rather than accept the whole post as true. Buy by and large, good posts should stand on their own. Hopefully transcend the poster.

I once had a three year old tell me my fly was open. Dang if he wasn't Right! :)

P.S. I've neglected to introduce myself to this site so I will do so along with my experience in the intro section.

Jeffrey Tanaka

I'm of the same mind with you here. I agree with the idea that accountability can make a big difference in certain conversations, but for the most part I think the substance of the message is what counts more than who said it.

Jeffrey Tanaka
09-22-2009, 08:40 PM
Chuck

I just read Tenryu Hamaki's post #32 on the "hidden in plain sight - Takeda Sokaku" forum. I'm not quite sure whose opinion his post confirms (your or mine), but I certainly more clearly see your point.

Jeff

rob_liberti
09-22-2009, 09:32 PM
In the other hand, even if some folks give their full name but their discussion is a kind of marketing (aikidojournal, 'internal skill' supporters etc...) to promote some business, or have hidden agenda I'm instantly loosing interest in such discussion.

Oh my gosh, I toally agree. I know just what you mean. I feel the exact same way when people do their "my aikido is valid and people love me" posts. That agenda is worse marketing, and so much more of a turn off - to me anyway. What's left to discuss about that? All I can say is "Yes yes, you are valid, and we love you... and your great lineage."

Personally, I'd rather read a post from someone who just has something new and interesting to talk about regardless of their name/lineage. I'm finding that truth itself is a much better authority than a name, a rank, and a lineage. But to each his own...

Rob

Shannon Frye
09-22-2009, 11:57 PM
Unfortunately, not in my experience.:(

... most dojo are not so backwards as to think that anything you post as your own personal opinion bears any reflection upon them..

Ruth

Adam Huss
09-23-2009, 10:15 AM
Just throwing this disclaimer out there...

Please take anything stupid I say as from me and nothing to do with my lineage or instructors.

Anything coherent or intelligent that happens to sneak out, please credit to my lineage and instructors.

Osu!
~Adam