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indomaresa
10-30-2003, 10:36 AM
hiya,

i was wondering, did anybody notice the effects of food on their training?

I didn't get any advice or material on this subject, but I noticed a pattern; I train aikido better on an empty stomach.

It's torture, and all technique takes an enormous effort, but really, really good awase ( blending ) can happen then. Which is impossible for me when I'm loaded and healthy.

As a matter of fact, I realized several aikido principles during sessions when I forgot to eat.

I'd like to hear some comments on this

Nick Simpson
10-30-2003, 12:07 PM
I usually work better on a full stomach, because otherwise I lack the energy to take lots of ukemi. I always try and eat 3 hours before a class so that my meal is fully digested but ive still got enough energy to practice.

Brehan Crawford
10-30-2003, 12:42 PM
I don't enjoy physical exercise of any kind if my stomach is actually full--as in, if I've just eaten a meal, as I feel bloated and my body is working extra hard since I'm not only exerting myself by training but also digesting.

What Nick said is really true though--the last thing I want is to have low blood sugar when doing a marathon of ukemi practice.

I generally try to have a light snack about an hour or so before class, and then when class is over I go home, shower, and am ready for a nice big meal.

mj
10-30-2003, 04:06 PM
A full nutritious meal between 2-4 hours before practice, depending on your constitution (you will know your own).

(A light pasta meal 2 hours before is ideal, imo)

If you feel the need for blood sugar... gatorade, lucozade, sugary soft drinks 30 mins - 1 hour before practice, maybe some chocloate.

You should make sure to have something after practice as well, especially liquids (not alcohol, well more non-alcohol than alcohol anyway, twice as much non-alcohol minimum), followed by a light snack or a full breakfast the next morning.

The main thing is not to think of eating in terms of days, but in months.

Jeanne Shepard
10-30-2003, 06:11 PM
A full stomach and alot of ukemi do not mix.

Jeanne

jk
10-30-2003, 08:31 PM
There are several students in our dojo who are fasting during the daylight hours of Rahmadan. We start practice about an hour after they break their fast. This doesn't make for an ideal training situation: Their stomachs are digesting newly ingested food while their blood sugar levels may still be somewhat depleted. The fact that they still come to train says something about their character, at the very least.

Abasan
10-31-2003, 01:28 AM
Actually john kuo, this year is just fine because we have at least 1 hr to digest before class. Last year, i had 15 mins. So all i could eat was three dates and a glass of water. anything more risks coming out after some serious ukemi.

Reading the glycemic index of certain foods, i found that snickers and m&ms are actually quite low to even white processed carbs. this make it an ideal snack to give you energy before class at the same time not fill you up like a real meal would.

Myself, i always eat after class not before if i can help it. you try and touch your toes after a full meal if you think otherwise and wear a hakama.

Nick Simpson
10-31-2003, 06:13 AM
I ate a couple of pies last saturday about 10 minutes before training started because Id slept in and had been drinking the night before, so I was really hungry. One of the Shodan joked that he would make me take hip throws all class to make them come back up, but after 2 hours of ukemi I wasnt sick. I was quite proud, so after class I ate the other 2 pies I had :0

Kevin Wilbanks
10-31-2003, 08:11 AM
To summarize: gatorade, sugary soft drinks, snickers bars, m&m's, pies... the pre-workout nutrition of champions.

Jim ashby
10-31-2003, 10:16 AM
So Nick. YOU ate all the pies!!

indomaresa
10-31-2003, 12:41 PM
My dojo also has several members who're fasting. But the amazing thing is that on sundays, they break their fast AFTER training for one and a half hour.

I often did involuntary fasting because my office hours and the dojo hours are too close, often hafta run and forego lunch.

just reading this thread makes me hungry, i'm gonna make some noodle...

Anders Bjonback
11-02-2003, 02:02 PM
Just yesterday, I noticed that they had free candy in the dojo before Ukemi class. So I ate four or five milky way bars, and other candy. Then we did lots of breakfalls, which my stomach didn't particularily like.

Basically, if I don't eat right, I end up with big stomache cramps during class.

I've tried only eating a couple energy bars before a class, and that didn't work (particularily because we did shinai randori that class).

markwalsh
11-03-2003, 02:50 AM
What's it like training before breaking a fast? Hard I guess. How did your dojo members find it Maresa? Any effect on their psychology?

Personally I've found eating 2-3 hours before training is best, preferably a veggie meal with plenty of carbs. For mornings I opt for coffee and bananas.

On a related note, has anyone moved from a country where most aikidoka drink alcohol at some point in their week, to a country where this doesn't happen? Did you notice any differences in training/ performance?

Mark

x

indomaresa
11-04-2003, 04:59 AM
Gee Anders, I wish my dojo offers free candy.

Or maybe the candies are provided as a trap for the untrained aikidoka.^^

Got you.

My dojo members are taking it easy, so the training didn't really tax their strength. But I remember several years back when I was badly koshinage-ed by a brown belt who is fasting. No control, and somewhat lacking in co-ordination.

You know, after reading this thread I realized I don't eat enough before training.

maresa

Michael Karmon
11-04-2003, 07:58 AM
As a rule, I never eat more then a fruit less then 4 hours before class and I usually try to avoid meat and poultry on a practice day.

I have a good cup of coffee an hour before class (it takes me 45 minutes to get from work to Dojo so it is the last coffee of the day).

Some of my teachers claim that training after a fasting day is good for you because it forces you to practice on spirit, will and Ki rather using your physical stamina. Thy claim that Aikido should be effortless. Taking Ukemi is done using your own mass movement and with relaxed muscles and controlled breathing rather then jumping up and down on aerobic drive. If performing as Nage makes you tiered then you are over-doing it. Practicing with low blood-sugar will help you bring these values out.

No matter how hungry I get to class, 5 minutes into Ukemi and forget about my stomach and focuse on that quickly appoaching tatami.

rachmass
11-04-2003, 08:51 AM
I hate eating after aikido, because then I'm going to bed less than two hours after eating (like to go to sleep on an empty stomach), so I always eat before class. Usually eat lightly before class, like a banana and a piece of toast, or best of all, a handful of almonds. Actually I find that almonds are the best pre-training food for me, as they keep my blood sugar levels constant and give a boost to energy.

Nick Simpson
11-04-2003, 10:17 AM
Yes James, I ate all the pies, muwahahahaha!

Abasan
11-05-2003, 10:36 PM
Used to train in the saturday afternoon classes and sunday morning classes about 2hrs to 8hrs before breaking fast. No effect, except you're a bit thirsty. No lost of control either.

A beginner who just started class last week (during the first day of fasting no less) only drinks water to break fast. He eats way late after class (about 10pm or three hours after possible breakfast)cause us jerks keep him in dojo after class to train with us extra. :P

Frankly, all this pie talk is making me hungry. mmmm...pie. Must eat pie...

ian
11-06-2003, 06:25 AM
Depends on type of training. For extended aerobic exercise best to do 'pasta loading' i.e. eat lots of pasta for several days before and about 2 hours or more before exercising. However eventually this will turn you into a fat bu**er if you don't exercise enough. (although other carbohydrates are useful, pasta seems to be able to give that real burst of energy that you can't get from rice or potatoes).

Lots of green vegetables also essential.

Ian

Dario Rosati
11-06-2003, 08:31 AM
I train from 20 to 21:30, with completely free stomach, and have a beef+non cooked vegetables dinner after (or pizza with the friends of the dojo :D )

I only make a bigger lunch, around 13:00, the days I do Aikido than in normal days.

This is the best compromise for me, the day I had my first stage at 15:00 i had lunch at 13:30 and felt really more "heavy" on training with so few time passed from lunch.

Amassus
11-09-2003, 04:19 PM
I have to eat before class, usually 2 hours before works fine for me. It gets my blood sguar to good levels and digestion is complete. This is a personal thing however, another aikidoka I know must eat three hours before training.

mj
11-09-2003, 04:56 PM
My wife sometimes attacks me when I am eating.

Nick Simpson
11-09-2003, 05:53 PM
Because your food isnt digested yet is it harder for you to throw her?

Jeanne Shepard
11-09-2003, 10:52 PM
Because you're eating her food?

Jeanne

Michael Karmon
11-10-2003, 01:10 AM
Because you're eating her food?

Jeanne
Perhaps his wife's cooking can be considered as a form of attack? :D

indomaresa
11-10-2003, 10:40 AM
:)

"lamb-chop kote-gaeshi?" or "burger ikkyo?"

Michael Karmon
11-11-2003, 12:14 AM
:)

"lamb-chop kote-gaeshi?" or "burger ikkyo?"
How about:

Irrimi-Nacho

Egg-Roll Ukemi

Sankyo-sandwich

Yunkyo-Yogurt

Katate-Tart

Any way MY wife's cooking may be considered as non-traditional attacks

:eek:

jgrowney
11-14-2003, 01:54 PM
For those interested in the relation between food and aikido see below:

Misogi Diet

The macrobiotic approach to nutrition classifies foods according to their biochemical and biological effects, taking into consideration factors such as:

The chemical composition of food - especially the relative sodium (Na) content versus that of potassium (K).

Origin of a particular food - either animal of vegetable quality.

Environmental influences - such as climate, season and soil condition.

Factors in cooking - such as time, heat and pressure.

Foods can be generally categorized into those which are more expansive and which produce a more relaxing tendency; those which are more contractive and produce a more tightening tendency; and those which are more centered and which, when eaten in balanced proportions, have the effect of harmonizing our condition with the surrounding environment.

Borrowing the terminology from several thousand years of Oriental tradition, macrobiotics refers to all foods as having complimentary yet opposite tendencies of yin (expansion) and yang (contraction). Among foods, some are at the extreme of yin or yang, while some carry a more even balance of both factors. Achieving this more balanced condition has been the goal of most spiritual teachings throughout the ages.

Common food items are generally classified as follows:

Centrally balanced: Whole cereal grains (brown rice, whole wheat, millet, barley, oats, rye, buckwheat, corn, etc.); beans; local vegetables; sea vegetables; locally grown seasonal fruits, fish and shellfish; seeds and nuts; non-aromatic and non-stimulant beverages; naturally processed vegetable oils such as sesame and corn; naturally processed seasonings such as miso, tamari soy sauce, unrefined sea salt.

Extremely Yin: Chemical additives, fertilizers, drugs; sugar, honey, and other concentrated sweeteners; artificial vitamins; soft drinks; tropical fruits (oranges, papayas, bananas, etc..); vegetables such as tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, etc., which have a tropical or semi-tropical origin, a high potassium content or a strongly acid reaction; milk, yogurt, butter and other processed dairy products; refined flour products; spices; alcohol; commercially produced tea and coffee; aromatic stimulant teas and beverages such as mint tea or peppermint tea.

Extremely Yang: Eggs, meat, poultry, red meat, fish, more salty varieties of cheese, table salt (NaCl).

As a growing number of people are discovering, a diet based on the more balanced foods can be readily adapted both as a preventative measure for maintaining overall health and for the improvement of a wide variety of chronic physical and mental disorders, including cancer, cardiovascular disease, multiple-sclerosis, arthritis, allergies, epilepsy, insecurity, fear, sexual disharmony, and emotional imbalance.

Of primary importance in maintaining overall health is the substitution of more balanced complex carbohydrate whole grain and fresh vegetable foods for high fat, cholesterol rich foods and simple carbohydrates like refined sugar. The foods in the centrally balanced group - whole cereal grains, local vegetables, beans, sea vegetables, seasonal fruits, and fish - generally form the standard macrobiotic diet, while foods in the extreme yin and yang categories are generally not eaten on a daily basis.

When applying these guidelines on a daily basis, consider these additional factors:

Our diet should reflect human tradition. Until modern times, unrefined, naturally produced whole cereal grains and their products comprised humanity's primary food worldwide, while locally grown seasonal vegetables and their products comprised the most important secondary foods. In order to maintain our human evolutionary status, our diets should continue to reflect this traditional pattern. We need to return to the "staff of life" - whole grains.

Our diet should be ecologically based. As much as possible, the foods which comprise the mainstay of our diet should be grown in the same area in which we live. When we begin to consume food imported from different climate regions, we begin to lose adaptability to the immediate surroundings. This imbalance often leads to the development of sickness, manifesting either physically, mentally, or both. This is especially true in cases where tropical or semi-tropical products (including sugar, pineapples, citrus fruit, bananas, spices, coffee and other yin products) are consumed in the temperate climates of North America. Also, serious sickness can result from the over-consumption of heavy animal food by those in a warmer or temperate climate, since this quality of food is more suited to the polar regions. Ideally, foods should be chosen from within a 300 to 500 mile radius of our home area; however, if this is not possible, the next best choice of foods are those produced in areas with climates similar to our own (U.S. climate) such as Europe or Japan.

Our diet should reflect seasonal changes As naturally as the seasons change, our diets should reflect those differences in climate through the selection and preparation of our daily meals. For example, in colder seasons we would apply longer cooking times and more salt; in warmer weather, we would use lighter cooking methods and less salt. As much as possible, we should always try to base our diet on those products such as cereal grains, beans, sea vegetables and other staples which are naturally available and storable without refrigeration throughout the year.

Our diet should reflect individual differences When selecting and preparing our foods, individual differences also need to be considered, with variations made according to age, sex, amount and type of activity, occupation, original constitution, previous eating patterns, personal desire, and social environment.

For more information see:

http://www.kushiinstitute.org/whatismacro.html

http://www.holisticmed.com/www/macrobiotics.html

indomaresa
11-15-2003, 01:01 AM
wow, that's a lot to swallow

reading them now... will probably be finished by new year eve

fvhale
11-15-2003, 06:09 AM
Hi Jim,

Thank you for your introduction to macrobiotic approach to diet.

When I was a teenager, this would have been impossible--I was raised at home on a typical "American" diet of burgers, fries and milkshakes, etc.

Now that I'm looking down the calendar at 50 rather than 18, we're actually much closer to the macrobiotic approach at home.

I find that a good "rule of thumb" is

"Eat closer to the earth and lower on the food chain."

More brown rice, azuki beans, vegetables and fruits, grains.

Less meats, dairy, processed foods, fried and salty foods.

My wife is using a few books:

"Zen Macrobiotic Cooking" by Michel Abehsera

"Complete Guide to Macrobiotic Cooking" by Aveline Kushi

"The Macrobiotic Way" by Michio Kushi

How I eat not only affects my training, it affects my entire life. The older I get, the greater the effect.

Peace,

Frank

indomaresa
11-15-2003, 04:50 PM
james, thanks for the tip ( or tips.. )

The article is sound, but transition may not be easy for me because there's not enough choice of food available to me daily. Will try these new diet though.

The part on lifestyle is what interests me, very eye-opening and makes me realize there's more to eating than just opening your mouth.

the very idea of giving up eggs and cheese however, brings up images of bleak breakfasts. Don't care much for steaks, because I always go after the pastas and chickens.

You do know that if we lay off chicken, they'll multiply too much and eat all the corn, vegetables, pickles, grains, beans, etc etc?

I foresee that, one day, there will be conflict between us the macrobiotics and the chickens. ( we'll win of course.. as a matter of fact we'll probably eat them for breakfast - pardon the pun ) :)

Kevin Wilbanks
11-15-2003, 11:28 PM
Of course I can't let all these far-flung claims about nutrition go by unchallenged. While the dietary recommendations produced by the Macrobiotics system certainly end up as superior in many ways to the average American diet and many of the lifestyle recommendations seem sensible, it is only tenuously based on science, at best, and many of the claims made about the diet's effects are irresponsible and unsubstantiated.

In viewing the "Great Life Pyramid" from the perspective of contemporary nutrition and exercise science, several serious problems are apparent:

1) The recommendation does not include nearly enough high-quality protein foods, especially for athletic and otherwise vigorous individuals. In order to gain muscle mass, for instance, studies have shown that anything less than .8 grams per pound of bodyweight of high-quality (animal source) protein impedes progress, if lower quality protein is emphasized, that amount becomes more than 1 gram per pound of bw. From an athletic perspective, limiting all meat, fish, eggs, dairy, and even nuts to weekly or monthly consumption is just plain foolish... maybe on the order of about 1/10th or less of adequate intake.

2) Without the use of processed nutrition supplements, this diet will put one at risk for several macro and micronutrient deficiencies and lead to malnourishment problems. The most salient examples that come to mind are: iron, B12, omega-3 oils, cholesterol and saturated fats, and of course protein. I'm not that familiar with the sea vegetables, but I have read that some contain B12 and may take care of that issue - otherwise there is no significant non-animal source of B12.

3) Whole grains are over-represented, which may contribute to other malnutrition issues. First, when grains are such a large portion of the diet, many other foods and nutrients are crowded out (i.e., the ones crammed into the peak of the pyramid). Second, whole grains contain substances currently dubbed "antinutrients", as they tend to block the uptake of certain other nutrients, particularly biotin. I can't find the article, but I read an anthropological article which linked widespread malnutrition problems to populations which relied on whole grains for more than 50% of their diet.

As far as claims about the macrobiotic diet curing everything from cancer to depression to diabetes, to who knows what: these are merely wild, scientifically empty claims. A handful of zealous testimonials does not constitute proof. In order to prove, suggest a cause-effect relationship, or even strongly associate a dietary or other behavior with disease risk, one needs studies - preferably carefully monitored, placebo-controlled ones in which hypotheses are deliberately tested... at the very least one would like to see some epidemiological analysis. Impressive-sounding anecdotes are of little value in this regard.

However, if you want my anecdotal observations, every person I've ever known who followed a macrobiotic or vegan diet was abnormally skinny, apparently anemic, and seemed to have persistent frizzy-hair and bad skin... all of which are consitent with the deficiencies of these diets.

Michael Karmon
11-16-2003, 01:57 AM
1) The recommendation does not include nearly enough high-quality protein foods, ... In order to gain muscle mass, for instance, studies have shown that anything less than .8 grams per pound of bodyweight of high-quality (animal source) protein impedes progress, ...
Kevin, these rules change after the age of 50. The requirment for protein goes down and the fibers requirments go up.

These researches you mentioned are probably funded by the cattle growers union of America.
2) Without the use of processed nutrition supplements, this diet will put one at risk for several macro and micronutrient deficiencies and lead to malnourishment problems. ...iron, B12, omega-3 oils, cholesterol and saturated fats, and of course protein....
The fear of b12 deficiency is one of the worst psycological - marketing hypes in history. you can get your entire consumption of B12 from the yeasts on un-washed, organic fruits and vegi's or by eating a pound of red meat a month.
...However, if you want my anecdotal observations, every person I've ever known who followed a macrobiotic or vegan diet was abnormally skinny, apparently anemic, and seemed to have persistent frizzy-hair and bad skin... all of which are consitent with the deficiencies of these diets.
Obesity is an American epidemic, More and more Americans are killed by obesity. Americans are diet addicts and still they grow fatter every year. This is due to too much meet, fat and white sugar and flower. The excess in food is driven by the greed of farmers that introudced the hidious idea that the 4 fathers of nutrition that must be consumed constantly.

I do not follow the zeal of Macrobiotics and I do belive it to have flaws but I think Macrob's is better the bigMac's

Kevin Wilbanks
11-16-2003, 08:57 AM
Kevin, these rules change after the age of 50. The requirment for protein goes down and the fibers requirments go up.

These researches you mentioned are probably funded by the cattle growers union of America.
Requirements by whom? I wasn't talking about the RDA or speculative prescriptions for preventing colon cancer, I was talking about the protein requirements associated with athletic activity. Do you really think that fiber suddenly becomes a building block for tissue repair after age 50?

The research I mentioned was done by scientists interested in learning about exercise physiology. I can go find the reference if you like. Since you have no specific info about these studies, your speculative allegation of unethical, crooked behavior on their part is ridiculous.
The fear of b12 deficiency is one of the worst psycological - marketing hypes in history. you can get your entire consumption of B12 from the yeasts on un-washed, organic fruits and vegi's or by eating a pound of red meat a month..
Hmmm. Any references to studies showing that one can meet even the USRDA for B12 via unwashed fruits and veggies (which may still be much lower than what is needed for optimal athletic performance/health)?

Another thing you can get a good supply of from eating unwashed produce is dirt and bacteria - who eats unwashed produce anyway? I have read speculation that third world populations get their b12 via feces and insect-contminated food... you advocate this?
Obesity is an American epidemic, More and more Americans are killed by obesity. Americans are diet addicts and still they grow fatter every year. This is due to too much meet, fat and white sugar and flower. The excess in food is driven by the greed of farmers that introudced the hidious idea that the 4 fathers of nutrition that must be consumed constantly.
The fact that Americans have a tendency to be lazy and gluttonous is the product of a conspiracy of greedy farmers? Surely you jest. On the whole, these are some of the silliest arguments I've seen in quite some time. I agree that eating too much meat, fat, and refined carbohydrates is a problem, but this does not mean that switching to a diet that is just as extreme in the opposite direction is a good idea.

Michael Karmon
11-17-2003, 01:44 AM
Requirements by whom? I wasn't talking about the RDA or speculative prescriptions for preventing colon cancer, I was talking about the protein requirements associated with athletic activity. Do you really think that fiber suddenly becomes a building block for tissue repair after age 50?
No, Fiber does not become protein at any age not even after the age of 50, but we need to consider HEALTHY feeding habbits and the ratio between ingredients rather then only quantity. The quantity of required protein drops with the drop in body muscle mass that happens aronund 50. You need less protein because there is less muscle to maintain.

Hmmm. Any references to studies showing that one can meet even the USRDA for B12 via unwashed fruits and veggies (which may still be much lower than what is needed for optimal athletic performance/health)?

Another thing you can get a good supply of from eating unwashed produce is dirt and bacteria - who eats unwashed produce anyway? I have read speculation that third world populations get their b12 via feces and insect-contminated food... you advocate this?

Some years ago I went on a practicaly vegan diet for three years. I did not consume any live protein and on the other hand I went to a gym to'pump iron' 4-5 time a week. My diet was made of brown rice, nuts, fruits and vegi's (water-washed not sterilized),whole grain - no egg bread, chickpeas etc. I did not take any food supplaments. I lost 30 kilos of fat and built up a very large and toned muscular mass, I ran 4 KM a day while my hair fell shiny below my shoulders. I do not know if more protein would have made me 'bigger' but the fact was that I did just fine.


The fact that Americans have a tendency to be lazy and gluttonous is the product of a conspiracy of greedy farmers? Surely you jest. On the whole, these are some of the silliest arguments I've seen in quite some time. I agree that eating too much meat, fat, and refined carbohydrates is a problem, but this does not mean that switching to a diet that is just as extreme in the opposite direction is a good idea.
No, actually I do not jest. American farmers are among the most efficient in history they produce way much more then the American consumer can intake. In order to maintain profit the farmers must increase the consumer side of the equation. "Add 50c's and get an increast portion", "get our extra-mega-dino burger" are not because people need it but becuas some one is desparate to sell.

I am not an Elvis-spotter/aliens-killed-Kennedy guy and this is the wrong forum but I stand firm on the opinion that the lobby of American farmers is behind governmetal documents as well as respectable scientific reaserches aimed on one thing: "Get'em eating that extra burger, french fries and pop-corn"

actoman
11-17-2003, 04:43 AM
I find that if I have a big meal, even hours prior to training, that once Ukemi kicks in in practice, watch out! I may puke.

Most of the time I simply take a protein shake and it sees me through.

Kevin Wilbanks
11-17-2003, 05:08 AM
No, Fiber does not become protein at any age not even after the age of 50, but we need to consider HEALTHY feeding habbits and the ratio between ingredients rather then only quantity. The quantity of required protein drops with the drop in body muscle mass that happens aronund 50. You need less protein because there is less muscle to maintain.
Perhaps YOU are resigned to having your muscle mass shrivel up starting in your 40's, but I plan on having at least as much as I do now until a far riper age. Maintaining muscle mass does require less than the figure I mentioned earlier. I do look at macronutrient ratios, and I'm claiming that the ratio given in the macrobiotic pyramid is sorely off for the athletically inclined.
Some years ago I went on a practicaly vegan diet for three years. I did not consume any live protein and on the other hand I went to a gym to'pump iron' 4-5 time a week. My diet was made of brown rice, nuts, fruits and vegi's (water-washed not sterilized),whole grain - no egg bread, chickpeas etc. I did not take any food supplaments. I lost 30 kilos of fat and built up a very large and toned muscular mass, I ran 4 KM a day while my hair fell shiny below my shoulders. I do not know if more protein would have made me 'bigger' but the fact was that I did just fine.
Either you are a genetically gifted individual, or your story doesn't compute. How do you know you lost 65 pounds of fat by number but not how much "very large muscular mass" you gained? Unless you used hydrostatic weighing or a skilled fat caliper user and did a lot of calculations, all you know is that you lost 65 pounds. Physiologically, from what I've studied and seen of trainees, almost no one can gain muscle running 10 miles a day and lifting 4-5 days per week without the aid of steroids.

More likely, your impression of "muscular mass" was merely a result of becoming lean enough to see the muscle you had, and having lost that much weight on the diet you describe, I'd say you probably lost many pounds of muscle as well as fat.
No, actually I do not jest. American farmers are among the most efficient in history they produce way much more then the American consumer can intake. In order to maintain profit the farmers must increase the consumer side of the equation. "Add 50c's and get an increast portion", "get our extra-mega-dino burger" are not because people need it but becuas some one is desparate to sell.

I am not an Elvis-spotter/aliens-killed-Kennedy guy and this is the wrong forum but I stand firm on the opinion that the lobby of American farmers is behind governmetal documents as well as respectable scientific reaserches aimed on one thing: "Get'em eating that extra burger, french fries and pop-corn"
Hmmm. Very interesting. (smiles and slowly backs towards the exit making no sudden moves)

Michael Karmon
11-17-2003, 05:46 AM
Perhaps YOU are resigned to having your muscle mass shrivel up starting in your 40's, but I plan on having at least as much as I do now until a far riper age.
Good luck
Either you are a genetically gifted individual, or your story doesn't compute....

More likely, your impression of "muscular mass" was merely a result of becoming lean enough to see the muscle you had, and having lost that much weight on the diet you describe, I'd say you probably lost many pounds of muscle as well as fat.
Whatever man.

I guess a degree in biology and training under the supervision of a former olimpic weightlifter are meaningless.

By the way, as I mentioned before, I do not advocating for Macrobiotics.

What I do advocate is, listen to your body and do not buy anything just because the doctor said so or has a nice set of numbers and scientific terms next to it. I used to fall for these things, but no more.
Hmmm. Very interesting. (smiles and slowly backs towards the exit making no sudden moves)
Weil, you are obiously very young, inexperienced and pure by heart so I forgive you. Just know this grasshopper: never underestimate the power of greed.

Remember, who would have believed that the tabacco companies added addictive components to cigarettes? and for what? just so they can make yet another Gazzilion dollars? well, today it is common knowledge that the big tabacco comapnies enhanced the eddictive capabilities of cigarettes. I am willing to bet a significant amount of money that soon enough people will realize that the big agricultural and food companies "rigged the dice of nutrition" - big time

Kevin Wilbanks
11-17-2003, 08:43 AM
Good luck
Luck won't have anything to do with it.
Whatever man.

I guess a degree in biology and training under the supervision of a former olimpic weightlifter are meaningless.
Actually you are correct, I consider high falutin' credentials and arguments from authority of any kind worthless, if not meaningless.

I noticed you cut and presumably disregarded the technical portion out of my quote. I'm telling you that if you can prove that you gained muscle mass on a high volume lifting program, running 70 miles per week, eating a very low protein diet, and simultaneously losing 65 pounds of fat, you will become a celbrated curiosity in exercise science and muscle-building circles worldwide... a veritable platypus. What you describe is basically impossible.

As for the agribusiness stuff, I would advise you to keep quiet about it. Are you naive enough to think they aren't reading this very exchange?

Michael Karmon
11-17-2003, 09:06 AM
Luck won't have anything to do with it.
As I stated earlier, you are young and optimistic and I hope you stay like that until you are 120. Luck will prevent you from catching a nasty bug, getting hit by a car, get yourself traumatized which other way you want.
I noticed you cut and presumably disregarded the technical portion out of my quote. I'm telling you that if you can prove that you gained muscle mass on a high volume lifting program, running 70 miles per week, eating a very low protein diet, and simultaneously losing 65 pounds of fat, you will become a celbrated curiosity in exercise science and muscle-building circles worldwide... a veritable platypus. What you describe is basically impossible.
Well Kevin, had you been reading my posting carfully you would have noticed that I did 4 Km a day thats less then 20 miles a week. furthermore you might have noticed that my diet was made of nuts and chickpeas and unprocessed grain with a very high level of vitamin, fat and protien to increase intake.

You may or may not take my word on it and you may or may not accept the notion that american trainers do not know it all but this is the way it is.

The whole debate is around one point, extremes are bad for you.
As for the agribusiness stuff, I would advise you to keep quiet about it. Are you naive enough to think they aren't reading this very exchange?
THEY (the MIB's) are reading it allright, my notions are not original, they are mentionen in many articles, books and lectures given by eminent proffesors in my business post-grad school. Further more they are not a result of a pre-planned conspiracy but a natural evolution of techno-economy.

Kevin, we went way off-topic and somtimes way off Aikido spirit so I declair you winner, and I beg your forgiveness while I abandon this specific debate.

jgrowney
11-17-2003, 02:28 PM
The post was not about nutrition but food and it's connection to aikido. For those studying aikido I'm sure you recall the hardest thing is to overcome the desire to use muscle in technique. The Standard American Diet is designed to build muscle with lots of animal protein. This naturally leads to early development physically (and sexually by the way) as well as early degenarative illness.

Another very interesting read:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0609807501/qid=1069103434/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-8432617-2852943?v=glance&n=507846

My current understanding is that macrobiotics in relation to aikido, is designed to remove impurities from the body, reduce muscle mass and increase the levels of Ki and Kokyu by harmonizing with and connecting to the forces within nature (Yin & Yang).

If aikido is about harmony with the energy of the attack/attacker, macrobiotics is about harmony with the environment/nature.

Just like aikido this is done on a very personal level and is contingent upon age, sex, activity levels, current condition, and the constitution of the individual. It's not a diet to lose weight. It's a lifestyle that is about eliminating extreems in one's life.

Some foods are too yin, some too yang. Some watch too much tv, some are uninformed. Some never excersize and some are obsessed with exercise. It's about finding balance in all areas of your life. You can see how personal this can be. Therefore it makes sense that a young person's diet would be different than an older persons. Though generally, both should be avoiding extreems.

Generally the two responses to an attack are fight and flight. Both are extreme emotional responses and neither are right for all scenarios. There is however a balance in the middle.

There are a lot of connections between macrobiotics and aikido. You have to be receptive to them though... just the same way you need to be receptive in traiing to feel the attack.

Just some thoughts.

Jim

jgrowney
11-17-2003, 03:08 PM
Not for nothing, but how do you think people ate before nutritional suppliments and supermarkets came along?

People ate meat when it was "hunting season" because vegetables were not available. People ate localy grown vegetables and fruits when they were in season. Year round people ate those things that would not spoil without refrigeration... grains.

Unlike today people were forced to eat a wider variety of food due to the changes in season. They did not eat pizza, subs, burgers, and fried food year round. Cooking was a skill that was handed down from generation to generation.

How many of you actually konw how to cook? I just started to learn how to cook about 2 years ago. My wife was never given any traditional family recipes or anyting. She's lucky if she can burn water! Hehe!

Needless to say this was an area that was severley out of balance for our family. So I'm trying to change it. We've also gotten rid of cable tv.

Quality of life has risen dromatically! More quality time with wife and family allows for more time away to train. I travel 6 hours each way to train with my teacher every other weekend. Better balance for everyone.

Jim

fvhale
11-17-2003, 03:54 PM
I appreciate all of recent contributions to this thread. Each of us individually must make our own choices on food and recreation and determine how these might impact our training both on and off the mat.

I'm 45. I'm also one of the "big guys" in my dojo, along with the former football players, former SEALS, and construction workers. I can leg press 200 pounds for many reps (machine only goes to 200 pounds), etc., can punch heavy bag across room. Very good muscle definition. Not much hair on top of head, but good muscles. I think it's partly genetic; I have ancestors on both sides who were seamen and longshoremen--hard, heavy physical work. Fairly short legs relative to trunk.

But my doc is also watching my glucose, cholesterol and blood pressure levels like a hawk. He always wants them lower, lower, lower. Macrobiotic style eating helps with the lipid and glucose chemistry. I've not noticed any loss of muscle mass (in fact, I think muscle definition is improving and fat being lost).

Just finished a weekend of martial arts clinics and classes. Started off with a nice meal Friday night: edamame (soy beans), miso soup, seaweed salad, sashimi plate (assorted raw fish), a little tako (octopus) and unagi (eel) sushi, with rice and sake. Yummy. High protein, low fat. (I've spent my entire life near the ocean, so ocean foods are definitely part of my native environment.) No breakfast in mornings before training. (Sorry, I don't do breakfast--but that is more of a monastic thing.) We had a nice spontaneous picnic yesterday afternoon (my breakfast), after all training was done, of bread and fruit. Simple. Sufficient. (Don't need sashimi every day!)

Jim--both my wife and I know how to cook; she grew up in the kitchen, the oldest daugheter in an extended Chinese family in Mexico; I spent many years cooking for a house full of guys in religious life. We don't have a microwave oven, by choice. Prefer cast iron. We try to by local and organic produce. We don't have raw meat/poultry in our house very often; but fresh fish, yes. The only frozen food we've bought over the last few years is frozen corn and peas (mostly for our birds--they like a hot dinner). And I quit watch television during the Watergate hearings. Never had cable, ever; or satellite TV; or a cell phone for that matter. I just don't feel a need for so much of our modern electronics. (Sometimes the kids at the dojo clue me in on something I don't understand because I'm not connected to television culture.) Gee, we even sleep on the floor Japanese style, putting out our bed evey night and rolling it up in the morning. (Should we ask how sleeping on the floor or not affects training?) We tend to go to bed early and get up early (again, a monastic thing--monks treasure those pre-dawn hours.) Maybe we're in the wrong century! But hey, at least we're happy!

I think it is good for "training" to encompass many aspects of our ordinary, daily life. We may have different approaches and practices, which is wonderful. I think it is asking the questions, raising the awareness, which opens the way to many benefits.

Peace to you,

Frank

Kevin Wilbanks
11-17-2003, 05:49 PM
The post was not about nutrition but food and it's connection to aikido. For those studying aikido I'm sure you recall the hardest thing is to overcome the desire to use muscle in technique.
From personal experience, I see no connection between how much literal muscle I have and "muscle-ing" techniques. I submit that what is often dubbed "muscle" in technique has nothing to do with muscle mass or limit strength, but is merely a way of speaking about doing techniques improperly - more specifically over-using the arms and employing quasi-isometric, self-resistive movement patterns.

In the past few years I have gone from being unable to do a single pullup to a one rep max of about bodyweight plus 80 pounds. From having trouble strictly pressing 75 pounds overhead to a 1RM of about 150, and similar increases in squatting strength. These aren't extraordinary strength levels, by any means, but fairly large increases. If anything during that time, I "muscle" techniques less than ever.

What I have noticed during that time is a pronounced decrease in aches, pains and injuries. I have noticed that I can bend at the hips/knees more sturdily for kosinage and other techniques, and without a sense of strain. My overall strength and stamina are so much better that I can train in general with much more of a sense of ease, as it now falls easily within my functional capabilities.

You seem to imply that letting one's muscles shrivel up on a diet unusually low in protein and probably deficient in other key nutrients will somehow improve one's Aikido. Ridiculous.
The Standard American Diet is designed to build muscle with lots of animal protein. This naturally leads to early development physically (and sexually by the way) as well as early degenarative illness.
First of all, there is no "standard American diet" as a monolithic entity needing capitalization or a little "TM" after it. There are statistical trends that are the product of historical development and all kinds of other factors, but these trends are the product of individuals making choices. There is no design, no designers. To put it this way sounds like more conspiracy theory.

To attribute current phenomena such as early puberty and degenerative disease to protein intake is ludicrously simplistic - I've never seen nor heard of any data that even suggest this connection, and I would be interested to hear the proposed mechanism by which this is supposed to occur. There are several "primitive" cultures studied that eat diets consisting almost entirely of meat - do they exhibit the same trends? Not that I know of. Most believe these trends to be associated with environmental toxins, not protein intake.

Kevin Wilbanks
11-17-2003, 06:03 PM
Not for nothing, but how do you think people ate before nutritional suppliments and supermarkets came along?

People ate meat when it was "hunting season" because vegetables were not available. People ate localy grown vegetables and fruits when they were in season. Year round people ate those things that would not spoil without refrigeration... grains.

Unlike today people were forced to eat a wider variety of food due to the changes in season. They did not eat pizza, subs, burgers, and fried food year round. Cooking was a skill that was handed down from generation to generation.
This kind of prehistoric and evolutionary speculation is quite a fad in health and nutrition circles these days. A lot of the appeal is based upon various widespread misconceptions about contemporary evolutionary theory. While this may be an entertaining pasttime, I have to point out that we really don't know very much about prehistoric dietary habits based on excavating a few bones and tool fragments. When it comes to the physical capabilities, disease epidemiology, or general health and vigor of these people, we know virtually nothing. This is all idle specualtion of the broadest sort.

I find all the trumpeting about food variety ironic, in that the macrobiotic diet is made up of nearly 50% grain and severely limits the intake of a wide variety of foods, particularly those containing high-quality protein, healthy fats, and several key micronutrients.

jgrowney
11-18-2003, 09:35 AM
Frank,

Glad to hear that you have found what works for you. Looks like you have found a way to really balance lifestyle with diet. I'm not there yet... but working on it:-)

Kevin,

Same goes. Please know that I'm not challenging your beliefs here. Don't take it personally. I'm simply putting out there one way to the top of the mountain. This is not to say this is the only way. This is simply the way that O-Sensei chose, so I'm told by my teacher. See earlier thread on this site (Gyo #8).

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1872&highlight=Misogi

I'm not suggesting anything outlandish here. Just finding balance for the individual. IF you have found yours, then congratulations. Just know that it will change over time as everything else in life does.

All I know is that (in general) the health of our nation has not gotten better over the last 50 or 100 years... despite longer life expectancy. Macro is not just about diet. It's about lifestyle and diet combined. Maybe a move towards simplicity is a good idea for many Americans. Again, that's up to the individual. So if it's not for you disregard it.

You see the difference here is that my perspective includes yours. I simply see the other side of the coin as well. It's just a bigger perspective. Not that bigger is necessarily better, but it is for me.

"The Seven Universal Principles of the Infinite Universe:

1. Everything is a differentiation of One Infinity.

2. Everything changes.

3. All antagonisms are complementary.

4. There is nothing identical.

5. What has a front has a back.

6. The bigger the front, the bigger the back.

7. What has a beginning has an end.

The Twelve Laws of Change of the Infinite Universe:

1. One Infinity manifests itself into complementary and antagonistic tendencies, yin and yang, in its endless change.

2. Yin and yang are manifested continuously from the eternal movement of one infinite universe.

3. Yin represents centrifugality. Yang represents centripetality. Yin and yang together produce energy and all phenomena.

4. Yin attracts yang. Yang attracts yin.

5. Yin repels yin. Yang repels yang.

6. Yin and yang combined in varying proportions produce different phenomena. The attraction and repulsion among phenomena is proportional to the difference of yin and yang forces.

7. All phenomena are ephemeral, constantly changing their constitution of yin and yang forces; yin changes into yang, yang changes into yin.

8. Nothing is solely yin or solely yang. Everything is composed of both tendencies in varying degrees.

9. There is nothing neuter. Either yin or yang is in excess in every occurrence.

10. Large yin attracts small yin. Large yang attracts small yang.

11. Extreme yin produces yang, and extreme yang produces yin.

12. All physical manifestations are yang at the center, and yin at the surface.

My original post on this thread was simply meant to lead others towards contemplation of another perspective. I can see by your posts that you have given this some consideration.

Thank you for your input.

Sincerely,

Jim

indomaresa
11-18-2003, 10:58 AM
wow, in just two days?

Well, some of the things Jim said is nice, and sensible. My chinese tradition also has several dozen beliefs and anecdotes on food choices and way of living.

Such as the simple concept of; don't eat meat. A lot of buddhist people I know avoid eating meat and follows a diet that is similar to this may-kro-bay-you-thiks diet Jim mentioned.

They're still alive and healthy. Not sickly, midget or mutated. But they're not very exciting people either.

But the modern, healthy way of living kevin mentioned also appeals to me, just like the advices from my doctors and business partners. Such as cleanliness and precision eating, calculating the necessary nutrients and such.

This will probably create highly active, and physically well formed individuals. But they'll be prone to migraine, pains and will be VERY excitable about things. ( I know this for sure )

Still pondering the values, but I will surely clean and cook my food before eating though.

toodle,

Kevin Wilbanks
11-18-2003, 12:27 PM
...You see the difference here is that my perspective includes yours. I simply see the other side of the coin as well. It's just a bigger perspective. Not that bigger is necessarily better, but it is for me.
How kind of you to condescend to the puny perspective of someone like me so unctuously. Thank you, o huge one!

jgrowney
11-18-2003, 01:39 PM
Kevin,

Like I said, bigger perspective is not necessarily better. It simply is for me. I learn a lot by considering the thoughts and perspectives of others besides myself. My intention was in no way to condescend. Simply to explain. I'm sorry if it came off that way to you. Please know I did not mean to offend you in any way. O.K.? Just because I have an opinion and have shared it here does not mean that I think everyone should agree with it.

I just think the purpose of forums like this is to raise one's level of awareness regarding issues related to aikido. I learn a lot from the people who post on these forums and respect them for it. Offending someone is not a way of showing respect, so I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to further clarify my intentions. Your comments are great feedback on my writing waza.

Maresa,

>They're still alive and healthy. Not sickly, midget or mutated. But they're not very exciting people either.<

I've experienced something similar. Less highs and less lows. More even keel in my moods and thoughts. You can see the obvious benefit in an attack situatioin. However, my parents actually thought something was wrong because I was not as jovial as usual. I think in their opinion life is about experiencing extreems and being open to a range of srtong emotions. What do you mean you don't want a drink? You're Irish! Haha!

I don't think they quite get the fact that I'm continually trying to push myself to grow in areas that they currently are not. Again, not good or bad... it just is. They are not on the same path I'm on. Nor are they really interested to learn about it:-) They like the path they are on (or are at least too comfortable with it to entertain the idea of change).

Now back to the topic at hand. Has anyone else found any particular connection (positive or negative) in relation to aikido and diet?

paw
11-18-2003, 02:15 PM
FWIW,
Now back to the topic at hand. Has anyone else found any particular connection (positive or negative) in relation to aikido and diet?

It may be somewhat more interesting to turn the question around. Is there a standard diet that has consistently produced excellent aikido? My gut feeling is --- there is almost certainly no hard data on this for aikido. There may very well be hard data if the question is broadened to include similar activities.
A lot of buddhist people I know avoid eating meat and follows a diet that is similar to this may-kro-bay-you-thiks diet Jim mentioned.

They're still alive and healthy.

It would be helpful to be more clear as to what is "health" and how to determine if someone possesses it. Aside from times of injury, I've been healthy my whole life. That does not mean that I have gotten anywhere near my potential as an athlete (a physical creature) or an individual (an emotional, spiritual creature).

Regards,

Paul

Kevin Wilbanks
11-19-2003, 08:25 AM
Kevin,

Like I said, bigger perspective is not necessarily better. It simply is for me. I learn a lot by considering the thoughts and perspectives of others besides myself. My intention was in no way to condescend. Simply to explain. I'm sorry if it came off that way to you. Please know I did not mean to offend you in any way. O.K.? Just because I have an opinion and have shared it here does not mean that I think everyone should agree with it.

I just think the purpose of forums like this is to raise one's level of awareness regarding issues related to aikido. I learn a lot from the people who post on these forums and respect them for it. Offending someone is not a way of showing respect, so I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to further clarify my intentions. Your comments are great feedback on my writing waza.
You did not offend me in the way that you imply, and if you did it would be my problem anyway. Excessive concern with people's feelings - my own or others' - and dedication to fawning politeness are very recent contemporary PC trends in written dialogue to which I do not subscribe.

You and the sites you referenced made many claims and implications which I dispute. Instead of owning up to the content of your claims and engaging in a dialogue aimed at hashing out these conficting points of view, you retreat into complete relativism while maintaining that your perspective is superior... except that you won't even fairly assert that. According to you, your perspective isn't better, it's just "bigger" in that you fully understand both your and my perspective and I don't understand yours. Absolute nonsense. If this is the kind of malarky that passes for coherent thought among the macrobiotics crowd, I'm happy not to count myself among them.

Kevin Wilbanks
11-19-2003, 08:45 AM
\It may be somewhat more interesting to turn the question around. Is there a standard diet that has consistently produced excellent aikido? My gut feeling is --- there is almost certainly no hard data on this for aikido. There may very well be hard data if the question is broadened to include similar activities.
I agree. Part of the problem here is that what Aikido as an activity is for people varies widely from dojo to dojo and person to person. Many people talk like Aikido for them is more about putting the philosophical aspects and analogies into play in their daily life. As such, maybe a diet that makes them calmer throughout the day might be desirable, even if it leads to limper performance on the mat... I don't know.

If one conceived the point of one's Aikido to be prepared to take on hardened fighters and trained that way, then maybe one might want to look at american football, wrestling, or some other power-oriented activity.

I suspect that for most, Aikido is just about enduring the training itself, including periodic weekend-long seminars. As such, one would probably want to look at longer duration aerobic activity with periodic use of anaerobic bursts. Right now I'm thinking soccer/football.
It would be helpful to be more clear as to what is "health" and how to determine if someone possesses it. Aside from times of injury, I've been healthy my whole life. That does not mean that I have gotten anywhere near my potential as an athlete (a physical creature) or an individual (an emotional, spiritual creature).
I hate to break it to you, but in terms of most raw athletic performance parameters applicable to martial arts, you are probably quite close to your potential. As many years as you have trained and as hard as you've trained, you are probably in the 'advanced' zone where even a couple percentage points gain per year is an accomplishment. Of course, skill potential is a different matter.

The main point here, is one I was trying to get across: there is a big difference between which diet behaviors are adequate for survival or even living a relatively ailment-free ordinary life and which might lead to optimal performance, vigor, and energy levels.

happysod
11-19-2003, 08:53 AM
Kevin, I'd like to commend you for your use of the word "malarky", haven't read that in years, loved it (and please, don't anyone start him off on squats/exercise again in this thread)

Disclaimer - not a nutritionalist or even a hobbyist in the areas of gut farming. I find any physical exercise better if I'm slightly hungry rather than over-full and when I have to choose between no food and food just prior to training, I choose none.

As to types of food, here I'm a glutton. If I have time I eat for the sheer sensual pleasure of the stuff so most diets, including macrobiotic (which I find tastless), are totally out. Normally, whatever takes the least time to make for the best (my subjective best) balance of goodies.

jgrowney
11-19-2003, 09:07 AM
Paul,

Those are great questions! I think you're right (but maybe I'm wrong) that there is no hard data... yet. Maybe some time in the future. So I guess for now we need answer these questions from personal experience. With regard to "similar activities" are you referring to similar physical activities or some of the more esoteric aspects of aikido? I don't know many activities really similar to aikido. Maybe it comes down to one's personal goals or purpose to training.

For me personally, my old diet did nothing to help my "mindset" with regard to aikido. As I mentioned earlier, somthing changed in my attitude when training which really helped. For me it ws really hard to get past the desire to "throw" my partner rather than connect to his center and let him fall. Seems like a small thing but it's made a world of difference in my progress.

As far as "health" and it's definition, I can say this. I don't think I've ever really been "healthy". By that I mean living up to the potential of my health. There are definitely times I've been more helathy than others. So maybe it's about finding out where you are now and continually moving towards being more helathy on a daily or weekly basis. If this is the case then diet would relate to physical health and lifestyle would relate to emotional and spiritual helath.

Maybe it's not about reaching your health potential, as to do so could require a priority shift that seems unhealthy to that individual (bordering on obsession). So again it's about finding proper balance for the individual... which is different for each of us.

Maybe (on this forum) it should be about reaching our aikido potential... a part of which is helath. I don't know. Really good questions though.

Jim

jgrowney
11-19-2003, 10:01 AM
Kevin,

>You did not offend me in the way that you imply, and if you did it would be my problem anyway. Excessive concern with people's feelings - my own or others' - and dedication to fawning politeness are very recent contemporary PC trends in written dialogue to which I do not subscribe.<

This is really an astute comment. However I was not fawning politeness. I may however be more concerned with others feelings than I need to be. This is just my way, though I've never really noticed it before. So thanks. Now I'm more aware of that possibility.

>You and the sites you referenced made many claims and implications which I dispute. Instead of owning up to the content of your claims and engaging in a dialogue aimed at hashing out these conficting points of view, you retreat into complete relativism while maintaining that your perspective is superior... except that you won't even fairly assert that.<

The reason I don't engage (in the way you do) is that I don't consider myself an expert in any sense of the word. I was just putting something out there, and some further reading for those interested in exploring the concept further on their own. They are not my claims to hash out. It's not about who is right or wrong. Because there is no difinitive right or wrong here. And like I said. I in no way said that my perspective or opinion is superior. Just different than yours. That's what I'm asserting.

If you want a difinitive answer as to which is better, go try macrobiotics and then make your own decision. I will not make it for you or debate it with you. That's pointless to me.

Macrobiotics is up to you to explore of you wish. If not don't do it. It makes no difference to me.

I know which is best for me, because I've experienced both.

Jim

paw
11-19-2003, 10:14 AM
Kevin,
I hate to break it to you, but in terms of most raw athletic performance parameters applicable to martial arts, you are probably quite close to your potential.

Well, now I'm depressed.
The main point here, is one I was trying to get across: there is a big difference between which diet behaviors are adequate for survival or even living a relatively ailment-free ordinary life and which might lead to optimal performance, vigor, and energy levels.

I agree. Well said.

Regards,

Paul

fvhale
11-19-2003, 10:16 AM
Food...self-defense...butterflies!

Seriously, there was a very nice science article in the New York Times yesterday by Thomas Eisner, at http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/18/science/18ESSA.html

(You may need to register with NYTimes online, for free, for access.)

Many people appreciate the beautiful patterns on the wings of lepidopterans, butterflies and moths, and anyone who has touched one remembers the "dust" on the wings. That "dust" is a two-way self-defense mechanism.

Mechanically, that dust helps lepidopterans escape from spider webs (dust stick to web, moth or butterfly escapes).

But there is more, and this is where the food comes into the story. A particular moth, while a larva, feeds on leguminous plants containing alkaloids. These alkaloids are stored in the body, and through metamorphosis they are deposited in the scales (dust) of the wings. This particular moth does not bother to leave when caught in a spider web, but waits for the spider. Spider takes one taste with wing dust (scales), says, "Ick!", and cuts the moth free!

Unfortunately, moths raised in laboratory without access to natural diet taste very good to spiders!

I have no idea about all the innumerable impacts of diet on my health, through the course of my life. It is amazing that I'm still alive today!

Peace to all,

Frank

indomaresa
12-13-2003, 11:42 AM
Kevin, you're openly ATTACKING someone in this forum. And after browsing around, you seem to do this very often.

Are you that smart?

I'm adding you to my ignore list.

GLWeeks
12-16-2003, 11:58 AM
I got slammed with this last Saturday. Got up,ate a bagel and washed it down with 2 cups of coffee. Went to Aikido ,about 2-3 hours later, and within 30 min I was dizzy and couldn't catch my breath... I will not make that mistake again... I do better 2-3 hours after a full meal...