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drDalek
05-29-2003, 05:13 AM
Please recommend to me some other grappling arts I could try, I enjoy Aikido greatly but its my first and only MA so far and I want to get a taste of what else is out there.

I dont want to do a kick/punch MA because frankly just from observing some karate classes, I am bored to tears.

I am thinking of finding a judo / bjj place somewhere.

PeterR
05-29-2003, 05:24 AM
I'ld go for Judo - basically the emphasis on BJJ is the ground while in Judo you get something a bit more balanced. In both you get randori which in most cases Aikido lacks.

I started Judo after I moved here to supplement and help my Aikido - in fact I'm leaving for Judo in about 5 seconds. Good fun.

Michael Neal
05-29-2003, 07:53 AM
I recommend Judo as well, it compliments Aikido well and you definately won't be bored.

Grappler
05-29-2003, 08:10 AM
BJJ all the way. Its awesome, the best when it comes to ground grappling. And all the BJJ guys I've met have been great people too.

If there is no BJJ dojo around, try one of the following:

Sambo - sambo is like freestyle wrestling with some submissions allowed. A lot of emphasis on takedowns and leglocks.

Judo - probably the best style to take a gi-wearing opponent to the ground. A lot of emphasis on throws. Not as effective with no gi. It is also an olympic sport, so it has a wide following. But pick the dojo carefully, a lot of bad ones around, especially outside of Japan.

Wrestling (Freestyle/Greco)- Also an olympic sport. If you want grappling with no gi, this is a good pick. It is more of a power game than technique, so a good muscle mass is recommended :) A lot of emphasis on takedowns and position control on the ground.

The most competent fighters I've met started off as freestyle wrestlers, moved on to BJJ and cross trained in a striking art like boxing or Muay Thai. Master the wrestling-BJJ-kickboxing combo and you'll be a living demolition machine :)

Eric Joyce
05-29-2003, 10:15 AM
Wynand,

Either choice is fine. You really can't go wrong.

L. Camejo
05-29-2003, 10:21 AM
Hi folks,

In my book, Judo and Aikido follow very similar, if not the same principles applied to different combative distances (ma ai).

Have done some Judo and BJJ as well. To me, there is a very easy and logical flow from standing Aikido techs to standing Judo into Judo ne waza (floor grappling). One can easily move back and forth among them depending on the situation in my experience.

If you are looking for something to complement your Aikido with floor grappling and a knowledge of non-aikido type throws and pins, I would recommend Judo. Not to mention, the balance breaking and combination knowledge gained from Judo randori is a major aid to applying Aikido techs and making things effective.

For an Aikidoka I'd recommend the Judo over BJJ, since in Aikido our main area of operation is standing up. BJJ tends to want to get you to the ground to grapple you into submission on the floor, even if you begin the encounter from standing.

Honestly, I think if you are in control from a standing position (which is our aim in Aikido), why risk going to the ground and then trying to establish a superior position to apply tech? For the ground work, the BJJ is great, but I've seen nothing that makes it that different from skillfully applied Judo.

It depends on what you are looking for as said earlier. To a person not inclined to either one, I'd say try both. But having tried both BJJ and Judo, I prefer the Judo. Just blends better with the Aikido I do, which was founded by a high ranking Judoka and Aikidoka.

Check out the dojos, do some classes, see what feels best before you decide. In my book, certain people are predisposed to certain types of martial arts, psychologically and otherwise.

To be an effective fighter though, master the 3 basic realms of unarmed combat - standup striking, standup locking/throwing and floor grappling.

Hope this helps.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Kensai
05-29-2003, 12:25 PM
I cross train in Judo. I think they gel very well, and dont really have many opposing ideas ie tensing for strikes (like karate).

Like Peter said, the more free Randori of Judo helps your reactions which you can apply to jiyu kumite in your Aikido when you get to that level.

Daniel Blanco
05-29-2003, 01:29 PM
HELLO PETER AND ALL I HAVE NEVER TAKEN ANY OTHER MA. AIKIDO IS THE ONLY ART I STUDY FOR TWO YEARS NOW BECAUSE OF MY LAW ENFORCEMENY JOB. BUT I THINK I MIGHT CROSS TRAIN IN JUDO. PETER DO YOU THINK IT WILL HELP HE AS A POLICE OFFICER JUDO THAT IS.

Daniel Blanco
05-29-2003, 01:31 PM
PETER HOW HAVE YOU BEEN AND FAMILY HOPE ALL ARE FINE I SAID HI TO SENSEI GENE FOR YOU.

Dross
05-29-2003, 02:41 PM
Aren't police in Japan are trained in Judo?

Dave Miller
05-29-2003, 02:43 PM
Aikido is often called "Judo at a distance". This is, at least in part, perhaps due to Tomiki. He was one of Kano's judo students. So the story goes, Kano sent Tomiki to O-sensei to learn about this new thing called Aiki-budo. Kano wanted Tomiki to teach it to him so he could see if it might improve his Judo. Tomiki liked Aiki-budo so much that he stayed and developed his own style of Aikido and his own system for teaching it.

I know several shinans who are yudansha in both Judo and Aikido and they all highly recommend Judo as a compliment to Aikido and vice versa.

Kensai
05-29-2003, 04:56 PM
The Japanese Riot Police train in Yoshinkan Aikido...... damn ruffens...... lol

PeterR
05-29-2003, 07:50 PM
Hi Daniel;

First of all for sanities sake - control those caps - sounds like you are shouting. Gene has got a good dojo - some good strong characters in there. I would not do less of that just to do Judo. Both Judo and Aikido from what I understand are better suited for police work than the punch/kick arts from a tactical point of view.

Some of the Tokyo Riot (apparently the majority do not) do a year long Aikido course at Yoshinkan Honbu. I do not know what is taught at their training academy. I do know that Tetsuro Nariyama, Shodokan Honbu Shihan and my teacher, instructs at the Osaka Police Academy. I have no idea how different that stuff is to what we learn.

Finally Chris - Judo gives more of an opprotunity to mix things up than your Aikido. This is probably an important area to work on as a police officer. In Japan most do Judo.

Jesse Lee
06-02-2003, 01:39 PM
It boils down to how you want to use your time. If you want more takedowns and less groundwork, try judo. If you want almost exclusive groundwork, go for BJJ.

Personally I agree with Andrew; I get off on BJJ. Feels like a great compliment to Aikido, maybe b/c it is *not* as similar to aikido as judo.

Dave Miller
06-03-2003, 10:40 AM
Pardon if my spelling is off. We have recently started introducing some of the kata of Goshen ryu into our regular workouts. As I understand it, Goshen ryu is a part of the Judo kata that is more of a blending of Judo and Aikido. The techniques definitely bear similarities to both.

Is anyone else familiar with this?

Ron Tisdale
06-03-2003, 10:58 AM
Check with Mark F. over in the judo section of e-budo. I believe you are refering to the goshin kata in judo which is meant to preserve some of the more "combative" principles of the koryu from which judo is derived. They should have some good posts in that forum on this.

RT

Dave Miller
06-03-2003, 12:06 PM
Check with Mark F. over in the judo section of e-budo. I believe you are refering to the goshin kata in judo which is meant to preserve some of the more "combative" principles of the koryu from which judo is derived. They should have some good posts in that forum on this.

RTI think that's what I'm talking about. I probably should have written Goshin jitsu rather than Goshin ryu. As an old Okinawan martial artist, I tend to write ryu when I mean jitsu.

;)

PeterR
06-03-2003, 07:41 PM
I think that's what I'm talking about. I probably should have written Goshin jitsu rather than Goshin ryu. As an old Okinawan martial artist, I tend to write ryu when I mean jitsu.
The main guy involved in the committee that came up with Goshin Jutsu was of course Kenji Tomiki - the reason there is a strong Aikido influence. They did troll several Koryu for suitable techniques but most have a very strong aiki-flavour.

As a Shodokan person it is quite common to see references to other Koryu Jujutsu styles when discussing a technique (as also found there) and even though it is an Aikido technique, a kata is taken from the koryu and learnt that way.

sanosuke
06-04-2003, 12:33 AM
Here's what I recommend:

Judo - good grappling and kuzushi techniques

BJJ - Basically Just Judo

How about taichi?

justinm
06-04-2003, 10:19 AM
Cornish Wrestling.

Charles Hill
06-04-2003, 12:55 PM
No one has brought up what I believe are two very important questions.

1. Is it necessary to go outside your chosen martial art? (for us, Aikido)

2. If yes, when would be a good time to start studying a supplementary martial art?

In my opinion, the biggest problem beginners run into is setting aside what they have learned before and clearly seeing and then trying what they are now being presented with. Again, just my opinion, but I feel that we should dive into the martial art we have chosen, as deeply as possible, for at least five years (should be longer) before we look into another martial art.

I have read that Masaaki Hatsumi has said that it takes the guy who has done five years of Judo, five years to get all of the Judo out of his system to start at zero, in year six, to learn the new art. I think this is a bit of an exaggeration, but there is a lot of wisdom in the statement.

Charles

Peter Klein
06-04-2003, 01:55 PM
thai boxing,aikido,bjj jesus what a mix! you will be very skilled if you mix those arts

paw
06-04-2003, 01:55 PM
1. Is it necessary to go outside your chosen martial art? (for us, Aikido)

Possibly. Depending upon an individual's goals and the aikido training available to them.
2. If yes, when would be a good time to start studying a supplementary martial art?

As soon as the need is recognized, provided the individual is able to do so. I presume "supplementary" indicates a the situation where one person is seeking to improve their performance by focusing on a particular weakness. It just so happens the perceived weakness is best addressed in another art. So, I would suggest starting the other art when the need is recognized, and leaving when the weakness is no longer present.

Regards,

Paul

Charles Hill
06-04-2003, 07:48 PM
Paul,

How does one know whether the weakness is in the art being studied or just in one's self?

I heard that the Thai Buddhist teacher Ajaan Chah used to tell the story of the monk who dropped his bag in a pile of shit one day. The monk soon left the temple and went to another temple. Then he left that temple and went to another still carrying the bag. Finally he ended up in the first temple again. The head monk asked him why he moved around so much. The monk answered, "Because every temple I go to, stinks so bad."

Charles

paw
06-05-2003, 06:10 AM
Charles,
How does one know whether the weakness is in the art being studied or just in one's self?

A couple of responses come to mind.

1. Does it really matter? As long as the weakness is correctly identified and fixed, is it really important where and how it was done?

2. Honesty and Education. There will always be people that claim one art has all the answers. Investigate and explore those claims. Consider the amount of time needed to reach your individual goals and plan accordingly.

Regards,

Paul

Charles Hill
06-05-2003, 08:23 AM
Paul,

I think your response #2 is very apt and important, especially about education. However, I have found self deception running rampant in the martial arts, especially in the West. The main cause, as I see it, is a failure to really give one's self over to the process of training and learning. I see, again and again, martial artists running around, "absorbing what is useful, discarding the rest" without any kind of base.

From my experience, only those with a solid base (the kind that can only come from years of dedicated work) are able to set aside their first art to really learn the second art. Over and over, I see people come to an Aikido dojo with a few years of experience in another martial art, who have a much tougher time learning than the people who know nothing of the martial arts. I'm sure it's the same for Aikidoists who go to other m.a.s, as well.

As for your point #1, I think that if one cannot see where and with whom a problem lies, there is no way to correct it. So, yes, it does matter.

Charles

paw
06-05-2003, 09:39 AM
Charles,

I'll do this in reverse order:
As for your point #1, I think that if one cannot see where and with whom a problem lies, there is no way to correct it. So, yes, it does matter.

I answered with a generic example in mind. I was thinking that an aikido instructor could be telling a particular student that their atemi is weak, and giving the student steps to correct this. The student, for whatever reason, know their atemi is weak, but can't seem to understand their aikido instruction's in resolving the problem. They train for a bit in a striking art and resolve the problem.

As I envisioned it, their aikido is now stronger (they have improved their atemi), so I would say everything is well and good.

My concern with elevating a style or an instructor is the student loses the ability to think and solve problems for themselves, which brings us to...
However, I have found self deception running rampant in the martial arts, especially in the West. The main cause, as I see it, is a failure to really give one's self over to the process of training and learning. I see, again and again, martial artists running around, "absorbing what is useful, discarding the rest" without any kind of base.

Train dynamically. (Well, it might be referred to as "randori" or "free-play" or "jiyu waza" or "wrestling" or "rolling" or "sparring" or whatever....) Put people out on the mat and have engage each other without the roles of uke and nage. Everyone gets to see what they can and cannot do. The "base" is reaffirmed in this way, not by words, but by action. (How else can one assert what is "useful"?)

I don't disagree that self-deception isn't a problem. But self-deception and self-delusion are harder to maintain when everyone is bouncing you around the mat. At least, that's been my experience.

Regards,

Paul

Carl Simard
06-05-2003, 10:18 AM
As many others, I will recommend judo. Before aikido, I have done judo for some years. IMHO, the two may complement each other quite well (and you can use the same gi for both!).

One thing that I liked in judo that, don't know why, hasn't been incorporated in aikido are the sweeps. Very effective when done well. Some of them could certainly have been included in aikido since they just follow the same basic principles: have good balance, good distance, good timing and just blend with your opponent...

By the way (but that may be another discussion), is there anyone who knows why sweeps haven't been included in the "catalogue of aikido techniques" ?

Kensai
06-05-2003, 11:34 AM
Do you mean stuff like O uchi or O soto?

Carl Simard
06-05-2003, 11:56 AM
Do you mean stuff like O uchi or O soto?
I don't remember all the names, but yes, I'm talking of that kind of sweep.

I remember some sweeps (but not the name, sorry), where you were just sweeping the advancing leg of your opponnent (during his move) when he's just about to put again his weight on it. The sweep could be done from the interior or exterior leg and a different name was given for both, but basically it was the same technique for both sweeps.

Would be simpler if I remembered the names, but I haven't put my feet on a judo mat since about ten years and just don't remember them (and my japanese is quite poor!).

Ron Tisdale
06-05-2003, 01:33 PM
ashi (foot) barai (sweep)

RT

Carl Simard
06-05-2003, 02:14 PM
ashi (foot) barai (sweep)

RT
Yes! I remember that one! That's exactly the kind of foot sweeps I'm refering too! If I'm remembering correctly, it's one of the first basic sweep learned, at white or yellow belt level. But there was some others, more difficult, learned at higher levels...

I think more of that kind of sweep than the ones like O Soto Gari, which is as much a throw than a sweep...

Carl Simard
06-05-2003, 02:42 PM
Thinking of it, some names begin to come back. There was some other feet/legs sweeps called something like "Ko Soto Gari (or maybe it's barai)", "Ko Soto Gake"...

Ron Tisdale
06-05-2003, 02:44 PM
Where's Peter Rehse when you need him...he's shodan in judo, so he might remember these names better than I...Glad to be of service...

Ron

paw
06-05-2003, 03:11 PM
In the interim, you could try searching Judo Info's animated listing of throws (http://www.judoinfo.com/animate.htm)

Regards,

Paul

PeterR
06-05-2003, 07:14 PM
Where's Peter Rehse when you need him...he's shodan in judo, so he might remember these names better than I...Glad to be of service...
Not fair Ron - I am the five month Shodan. Principle driven - waza poor. And just not interested in the names.

Now ask me about an Aikido waza in the Shodokan repetoire and I will wax lyrical.

By the way the link Paul gave above is basically what I use.

Cyrijl
06-09-2003, 12:02 PM
I dont want to do a kick/punch MA because frankly just from observing some karate classes, I am bored to tears.

There are many more strking arts than karate...depending on your needs and goals, you might want to look around at other striking arts in order to complement your aikido.

Well, me, I do BJJ and know nothing of judo. I like BJJ because you can (in most schools) go all out. If you have a choice of a couple of schools, try to find one with some standup. In my school we don't do only groundwork. People many times don't understand that BJJ has quite a bit of standup techniques (i think from judo & jujitsu).

Grappler
06-11-2003, 10:47 AM
People many times don't understand that BJJ has quite a bit of standup techniques (i think from judo & jujitsu).
And some standup techniques you wont find anywhere else (flying triangle choke!! :))

Bryant Pierpont
07-22-2003, 12:30 AM
Try Tai Chi if you can find someone who teaches it as a martial art. It's very complimentary to Aikido.

ronmar
07-22-2003, 04:30 AM
I remember some sweeps (but not the name, sorry), where you were just sweeping the advancing leg of your opponnent (during his move) when he's just about to put again his weight on it. The sweep could be done from the interior or exterior leg and a different name was given for both, but basically it was the same technique for both sweeps.

Sweep advancing leg = de ashi barai (or harai)

reap advancing leg outside = ko soto gari

reap advancing leg inside = ko uchi gari

hook advancing leg outside = ko soto gake

etc

With ashiwaza like de ashi barai, the impetus for the throw comes mainly from anticipation of the opponents movement, ie you sweep the advancing leg just as weight is being transferred to it resulting in an "effortless" feel.

You set it up by imposing a stepping pattern on opponent eg step forward on right, step back again with a pull from your right hand, opponent will have stepped forward on his left foot due to the pull and will step forward on his right to even himself up, sweep his advancing right foot with your left as he does so.

ko soto and ko uchi are similar but the motion is less a sweep and more a reap (use your foot to lift opponents foot. More arm work is required for these throws. They are most often used as part of a combination.

The most visually impressive sweep is okuri ashi barai where you sweep one leg into the other on a sidestep and the opponent flies up into the air.