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john2226
01-09-2003, 10:17 PM
First off yes im a Seagal fan:p That being said. I hear many people say his Aikido isnt "real". What do they mean by this?I know the Aikido he does in movies is not the Aikido we do. He seems to improvise and have almost his own style. Last I heard he was 7th Degree Dan. That is a very high rank. I think that deserves some respect. How many of us will attain that rank. I have also heard he is one of the highest ranked Westerners in Aikido. Is this true? Why do people say he is not an Aikidoka? Is it just personal opinion? Thanks for you're thoughts.

MikeE
01-10-2003, 12:22 AM
I have been on the mat with Seagal Sensei, and taken ukemi from him.

What he does is very much real. One of his influences (and the person that recommended him for nanadan) is Isoyama Hiroshi Shihan who is know for is powerful technique.

Seagal Sensei is real.

I still wish Isoyama Shihan would have made it to the Aiki-Expo. I would love to take ukemi for him, or at least watched.

Ta Kung
01-10-2003, 02:12 AM
I don't know about his Aikido, but his acting sure does suck. Sorry, I couldn't resist... :)

/Patrik

Edward
01-10-2003, 02:47 AM
Well, he has never been nominated for an oscar, but I don't think he's any better or worse than other MA actors, past and present, such as Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee, Jet Lee, Jackie Chan, or even Arnold Schwarzenegger. They all have one thing in common: their acting sucks!

I have no doubt however that his aikido must be very good.

paul keessen
01-10-2003, 03:42 AM
His acting sucks indeed.

And for an aikidoka is talks very dirty!

Ofcourse his aikido looks very nice, but we should all remeber the true meaning of aikido!

greetz

paul

PeterR
01-10-2003, 04:13 AM
And that is?
Ofcourse his aikido looks very nice, but we should all remeber the true meaning of aikido!

peteswann
01-10-2003, 05:55 AM
[QUOTE="paul keessen"]And for an aikidoka is talks very dirty!/QUOTE]

Could you explain this please? Am unsure what you mean by it!! :D

Pete

Ta Kung
01-10-2003, 06:45 AM
Maybe he said wiener a few times more then he should have? :)

/Patrik

PS. My little cousin (5 years old) said that his ponytail is to tight, and he wairs it that way because it makes his eyes look like he was from China... strange girl, she is. :)

Tim Harley
01-10-2003, 07:20 AM
"or even Arnold Schwarzenegger. They all have one thing in common: their acting sucks!"

Oh, you just broke my heart! Arnold is one of my all-time favs! OK, I must admit, he isn't the greatest actor, but I love the flicks!

:D

Anyway, from what I understand, Steven Seagal's Aikido is real. Last I was aware of, he operates two schools, one in CA and the other in Japan. And those who have had the opportunity to train with him (as has been stated) can tell you that he knows what he is doing.

We need to be careful in judging someone's ability by what Hollywood portrays.

Peace.

peteswann
01-10-2003, 08:49 AM
[QUOTE="Tim HarleyWe need to be careful in judging someone's ability by what Hollywood portrays.[/QUOTE]
Well said!! Although I remember seeing a web site that had a write up of a Seminar conducted by Seagal Sensei in France (IIRC) and it was all a bit pants according to this person!!

Seagal was late arriving, rambled for ages about spiritual stuff whilst on the stage wearing one of his shiny spangly jackets and showed them almost no Aikido at all!!

That said, it still doesn't mean his Aikido isn't any good, just that his ego AT THAT TIME must have been colossal to think that was what people wanted!!

There is talk in the media of another court case involving Seagal and the 'mob' - where he has gone to court over them using threats and extortion on him. Some would say that oh, he knows Aikido etc why doesn't he just do what he does in his films etc? Hell, I think he is doing the right thing by not getting in to that type of confrontation with them!! Surely avoiding the conflict is more Aiki...

:D :D :D

Aikilove
01-10-2003, 10:02 AM
What he does is very much real. One of his influences (and the person that recommended him for nanadan) is Isoyama Hiroshi Shihan who is know for is powerful technique.

Seagal Sensei is real.

I still wish Isoyama Shihan would have made it to the Aiki-Expo. I would love to take ukemi for him, or at least watched.
Isoyama is a great teacher and a good man, and if he thinks highly of Seagal sensei as a person and as an aikidoka then I think he has a reason fo it.

On a more personal note, I happen to have a contact with Seagal sensei, and I think he's a great man.

diesel
01-10-2003, 10:17 AM
Seagal was late arriving, rambled for ages about spiritual stuff whilst on the stage wearing one of his shiny spangly jackets and showed them almost no Aikido at all!!
You also need to take into account that Seagal sensei is very high in the buddhist community. He is recognized as some reincarnated llama. Therefor spirituality means alot to him, quite possibly more then his aikido...

Eric

peteswann
01-10-2003, 10:35 AM
It may well be, however I believe (from what I remember reading!) that he was there for an Aikido seminar rather than a Buddhist retreat!! :D

That said, I don't have any problem with him at all!! I kinda like his films and can separate that from 'realtiy'!! Unless I actually get to meet the guy I will reserve judgement in that respect! He must have had a modicum of talent in Aikido for his teachers to give him his grade, AND allow him to run the Family (of his 1st wife I think) dojo!!

Love him or hate him I can't believe someone can get to where he is on BS alone!!

I'd quite like to see proper video of him demonstrating technique rather than film clips!! :D

Tim Harley
01-10-2003, 10:37 AM
[/QUOTE]
Surely avoiding the conflict is more Aiki...

:D :D :D[/QUOTE]
That sure is easy to lose sight of, isn't it?!

;)

Peace.

Jeff Tibbetts
01-10-2003, 10:41 AM
Hmm©©© I wasn't going to get into this thread, but now that Buddhism is brought into it I can't help it© I've heard that he is a devout Buddhist as well, which is fine© I heard that he also makes a point to wear his Buddhist prayer beads in all of his movies, also great© The one thing I have a hard time reconciling is that one of the prime t goals of Buddhism is to extinguish the EGO, the self© I'm sorry, but everything I hear about Seagal-san is that he thinks very much of himself© His ego would seem to me and many others to be a great hindrance to accepting his Spirituality as true© If this isn't true, I think that it is careless of him to have let his public image reflect that, and in all honesty I don't see how it would reflect that on such a scale as it does if there were no truth to it© Anyone who comes off as macho and self-centered as he does has to then fight a battle to show people how Spiritual he is, and it doesn't help if he's wearing some "shiny spangly jacket" while he's talking© Of course, I think the issue is more with what he projects in the media and through his own actions than what he really thinks, how could anyone know that unless they knew him© As for his Aikido, I just wish he'd use it in his movies, that's all© I for one am sick of people asking wether I can do all that stuff that he does in the movies :¤

peteswann
01-10-2003, 10:55 AM
Just side tracking away from the subject a little (not much honest!!) check out www.tantobeak.com and the cartoon stories in their gallery!! (Start at the beginning!!)

diesel
01-10-2003, 10:55 AM
Hmm©©© I wasn't going to get into this thread, but now that Buddhism is brought into it I can't help it© I've heard that he is a devout Buddhist as well, which is fine© I heard that he also makes a point to wear his Buddhist prayer beads in all of his movies, also great© The one thing I have a hard time reconciling is that one of the prime t goals of Buddhism is to extinguish the EGO, the self© I'm sorry, but everything I hear about Seagal-san is that he thinks very much of himself© His ego would seem to me and many others to be a great hindrance to accepting his Spirituality as true© If this isn't true, I think that it is careless of him to have let his public image reflect that, and in all honesty I don't see how it would reflect that on such a scale as it does if there were no truth to it© Anyone who comes off as macho and self-centered as he does has to then fight a battle to show people how Spiritual he is, and it doesn't help if he's wearing some "shiny spangly jacket" while he's talking© Of course, I think the issue is more with what he projects in the media and through his own actions than what he really thinks, how could anyone know that unless they knew him© As for his Aikido, I just wish he'd use it in his movies, that's all© I for one am sick of people asking wether I can do all that stuff that he does in the movies :¤
Since you want to delve into the topic of buddhism.

The Buddhist doctrine of egolessness is what I think you are referring to. Alot of westerners confuse buddhist ego with what is commonly referred to as the Fruedian ego. The Buddhist ego is a collection of mental events classified into five categories, called skandhas...roughly: confusion, identification, exploration, perception, and finally consciousness.

Now aikido and ego is a completely different topic.

As for aikido in his movies... From my understanding he is no longer allowed to use his students as uke's and stuntment just cannot take ukemi for him ( if you watch above the law and his earlier movies, nice aikido). Therefore he has to resort to moviedo.

:circle: :square: :triangle:

Eric

Choku Tsuki
01-10-2003, 12:02 PM
Steven Seagal is just a person who:

has generated a lot of interest in aikido as a public figure;

is not a good role model; but from what I have read he is trying to change this perception of him;

will never win an Oscar, but I think he tries very hard to be a good actor;

has technique that looks to be very strong.



All around, there is a lot to be learned from him.

--Chuck

john2226
01-10-2003, 12:30 PM
thanks for all the replies. Interesting viewpoints from everyone here.

Don_Modesto
01-10-2003, 12:51 PM
[QUOTE="Pete Swann (peteswannThere is talk in the media of another court case involving Seagal and the 'mob' - where he has gone to court over them using threats and extortion on him.[/QUOTE]More interesting to me is the talk of HIS threats. It seems that some of his people have attempted to intimidate reporters using threats and vandalism.

norman telford
01-10-2003, 12:55 PM
hi people has anyone seen his training video PATH BEYOND THOUGHT he isnt acting in that you cant judge seagals aikido by what you see in his movies(its seeing these movies that got me into a dojo in the first place so i owe him a very large thank you) movies arent real the aikido is more like dance as its all choreographed get hold of the prieviously mentioned training video and then say is is not worthy its worth watching for the dan grade test (by his students) alone truly awsome p.s. i agree his acting is a bit dodgy but why to people go to see his movies for the acting or the aikido :)

Philippe(Schpk)
01-10-2003, 01:48 PM
Although I remember seeing a web site that had a write up of a Seminar conducted by Seagal Sensei in France (IIRC) and it was all a bit pants according to this person!!
This one? http://perso.wanadoo.fr/a.a.d/

(you need to understand french, of course).

I was there in June 1999...

peteswann
01-13-2003, 02:42 AM
Not sure Philippe!! The account of it I read was in English!! My French is extremely rusty, as I guess most English folks is if they didn't carry it on past their second year in Secondary / Grammar school!! :O)

AikiRooster
01-15-2003, 12:50 AM
In my humble opinion, folks that bad mouth Seagal Sensei do so usually out of pure jealousy.

As a true fan of the sir however, I do feel obligated to point out that it is does seem odd with all the charges flying around against the mafia and mafia types by him through the FBI. Granted the media sucks and hate him for whatever reason and they will never print a stroy with the truth about him. However, as aikidoka or students of any style with aiki principles, I don't think it's proper anybody bad mouth a legitimate Sensei authenticated by a legitimate organization. So, unless the sir does something really stupid like commit a priestlike felony, let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

Also, about his Aikido, I don't understand how anyone that truly knows anything at all about him can deny it's realness, authenticity, whatever you want a call it.

Leave the sir alone, and show your worthy of sharing the aiki spirit which means to back up your fellow aiki like their your family because in essence, they are.

SeiserL
01-15-2003, 09:02 AM
I have seen some of his seminar tapes, and his technical looked very good. IMHO, nothing brings more attention to something than those who critize it. Do not worry about Seagal's Aikido, get back to the mat and train your own.

Until again,

Lynn

Michael Brown
01-15-2003, 09:23 AM
Hi John,

Seagal came to our dojo, Aikido of San Jose (CA), for a seminar in 1990. There was a great deal of training. He shared some pretty interesting stuff. I am just glad I was never his routine crash-test uke...

Best regards,

Mike

Ron Tisdale
01-15-2003, 10:30 AM
Hello Mr. Nelson,

Just to give an opposing viewpoint (I personally have nothing for or against the man).

We are talking about someone whose personal life is quite bizarre (the news reports of it anyway) and someone who has either spread misinformation about himself or allowed it to go unchallenged. As far as his aikido, I think the tapes I have seen of him in an earlier time were excellent...and he also seems to have many excellent ex-students, so he did at one time perform and teach what would seem to be excellent aikido.

But in terms of what I would look for in an instructor, I'd be more interested in what a smaller person could teach me about handling larger people than what a big man could teach me about handling mostly smaller people. If that makes any sense. I guess an overall sense of balance (in his personal life and in the discussions about him) would be the perspective that I would look for.

Ron (hey, none of us is perfect) Tisdale

DGLinden
01-15-2003, 12:17 PM
I trained for a weekend with Steve when he was a sandan and I was a nidan. If he has grown incrementally he is one of the toughest and smoothest big guys around. He is deceptively long and strong. As a big guy myself, I was impressed, I've also had a few of his students come to my dojo and train and they are excellant.

As a person? Who can judge the public person who is not there in his shoes? He is trying to sell movies. Of his arrrogance though, there is no question although none of this was the question. Hi Don.

Don_Modesto
01-15-2003, 02:23 PM
In my humble opinion, folks that bad mouth Seagal Sensei do so usually out of pure jealousy.

DJM: The Joseph McCarthy argument: "The real problem is with those disagreeing with my viewpoint..."

As a true fan of the sir however,

DJM: "True fan"--echoes of "true believer"...

Granted the media sucks and hate him for whatever reason

DJM: There are reasons. A true fan might prefer plucking out their eye to seeing them. From: http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/steven_seagal.htm

Ned Zeman writes in the October 2002 issue of Vanity Fair: "Seagal's film career is in a death spiral thanks in part to his vile, simian behaviour toward colleagues, women, employees and reporters - not to mention his serial dissembling, his dime-store theology and his all-round vulgarism."

and they will never print a stroy with the truth about him.

DJM: A tautology? IE, if it's not good, it's not the truth? Hmm...

However, as aikidoka or students of any style with aiki principles, I don't think it's proper anybody bad mouth a legitimate Sensei authenticated by a legitimate organization.

DJM: With the caveat: "Without good reason." There are reasons.

So, unless the sir does something really stupid like commit a priestlike felony, let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

DJM: Done. He's settled out of court on sexuall harrassment charges and according the the website above, is a bigamist.

Also, about his Aikido, I don't understand how anyone that truly knows anything at all about him can deny it's realness, authenticity, whatever you want a call it.

DJM: I've only heard good things about his aikido. Brings to mind Ellis Amdur's post on lineage where he says he's known too many good practitioners who were bad people...
Hi, Dan.

Erik
01-15-2003, 02:58 PM
Hi John,

Seagal came to our dojo, Aikido of San Jose (CA), for a seminar in 1990. There was a great deal of training. He shared some pretty interesting stuff. I am just glad I was never his routine crash-test uke...
Saw that one myself. He had skill and others who knew him around these parts confirm that. Plus, you have to admire someone who decides to do something then goes and does it the way he has.

Alas, there is the rest of it.

Talon
01-15-2003, 03:35 PM
Thats some pretty diturbing articles about Steven Segal.

by the way is this true ?

"NY Post: The [Vanity Fair] piece raises questions about Seagal's prowess as a martial artist, recounting how stuntman Gene LeBell once choked Seagal unconscious during an aikido demonstration, and how Seagal ducked a bout with champion black belt Bob Wall, who promised to rip off his head and defecate down his neck"

If segal is a 7th Dan and some stund guy chokes him out. It makes me wonder either about his rank or the effectiveness of Aikid in general.

No disrespect by any means its just disturbing to me being a student of Aikido.

Thoughts on the matter?

Ron Tisdale
01-15-2003, 03:47 PM
Ok, calling Judo Gene Lebell "some stunt guy" is your first mistake. He'd be likely to choke most guys half his age out. In seconds.

Your second mistake is pinning your commitment to your training on the outcome of ***one*** other person in a situation which you didn't witness, and likely don't understand. Exactly **why** would you do that?

Ron Tisdale

Talon
01-15-2003, 04:10 PM
like I mentioned before. I did not want my post to come off as I believe all that I read on some web page or have any negative connottation towards Segul Sensei. You are absolutely right that I should not call Judo Gene Labell "some stunt guy" . unfortunately the article that Iread on the above mentioned web site did not mention that Gene Labell had any martial arts background and I personally obviusly did not do sufficient research on the man to get information on his martial arts background.

To answer one of your statements, I do not pin my commitment to my training on the outcome of that one situation I didnt witness. I love Aikido and I dont think I will ever stop training or exploring it till I die.

Please accept my deepest appologies if I have offended you personally or anyone on this board by my post. It was not my intention dto do so. I just wanted to hear some comments from people who I consider the authority on the art instead of the reporters who wrote the articles.

I sincerely thank you for your answer to my post as it enlightened me for one on the martial atrs training of Gene Labell of which I was not aware of.

Paul

Talon
01-15-2003, 04:13 PM
Please forgive my dislexia when typing and poor proofing prior to posting.

Paul

Mark Barlow
01-15-2003, 04:13 PM
I've been fortunate enough to train with Gene LeBell several times over the last 12 years and have been choked out by Judo Gene twice. Trust me, no one who has been on the mat with him feels it is a disgrace to be choked out by the best in the business. Even though Gene Sensei is in his late 60's, his speed and technique is the match for just about anyone.

Talon
01-15-2003, 04:28 PM
This is starting to make alot more sense to me now. Thank you for educating me on the matter of Gene LeBell. I knew that there would be a logical explanation to this aspect of the article.

Of course if Segal Sensei did not expect that level of skill from an oponent, he may have been at dissadvantage as well.

AikiRooster
01-15-2003, 05:59 PM
Sensei LeBell is very interesting and I have always been a fan of his also.

www.genelebell.com:

:ai: :ki: :do:

Don_Modesto
01-15-2003, 10:10 PM
by the way is this true ?

"NY Post: The [Vanity Fair] piece raises questions about Seagal's prowess as a martial artist, recounting how stuntman Gene LeBell once choked Seagal unconscious during an aikido demonstration, and how Seagal ducked a bout with champion black belt Bob Wall, who promised to rip off his head and defecate down his neck"
Regardless of LeBell's famous talents, I've heard that both he and Seagal deny that it happened. This story keeps going around, though. Don't know about the Wall thing. That was news to me, too.

AikiRooster
01-15-2003, 11:52 PM
The Bob Wall incident was true. It wasn't just him though. The so-called dirty dozen wanted to fight Seagal supposedly for some bad remarks Seagal made about Chuck Norris when Seagal first became a movie dude.

DGLinden
01-16-2003, 07:34 AM
Paul,

You have touched upon one of the great myths of Aikido - that all of its Senseis are unbeatable martial masters. Truth be told, most of them could not last a single round with a modestly tained boxer from a no-name gym.

Sorry, its the truth. The two things which are never spoken are that it takes so many years to get any good at this art that you find yourself old before you are really competant. The second is that most Sensei are not cross trained with good offensive technique.

Lets take the first - There just aren't any pro sportmen over the age of 40 (other than golfers). Timing, speed, strength - they fade and all the Aikido training won't replace the ravages of time. I know most of the Sensei out there actually believe that they can cause some 25 year old to fly over his hand just by waving it in the air but the truth is in the white belts, isn't it? We do learn an amazing amount of wondrous body mechanics that we then apply to motion and balance and thereby execute 'majic'. But face it - we really like our specially trained ukes...

As for the second - As Aikido teachers we are really limited as to our ability to deliver a body or head breaking strike simply because the average Sensei does not do any work on heavy bags or makiwara. Those who do have a real advantage and may actually be able to defend themselves from a trained attacker. Anyone who has seen a boxer take a solid left hook to the head from someone like Foreman or Ali, or Tyson - and keep fighting - should realize that we mere mortals live in a completely different world from this. And believe it, they could hit even the best Aikidoka.

Against an untrained attacker, well, Aikido is just fine.

The really important thing to consider when dealing with high ranked instructors in not their ability to stop Miker Tyson, but rather their ability to deliver the necessary lessons to the class and make it understandable. A good teacher is like a good coach - the knowledge is there, but the body has begun to fail. Paul , don't mythologize Aikido Teachers, they are rarely able to live up to thier own press. And I include myself.

andrew
01-16-2003, 07:40 AM
[QUOTE="Tim HarleyWe need to be careful in judging someone's ability by what Hollywood portrays.Seagal was late arriving, rambled for ages about spiritual stuff whilst on the stage wearing one of his shiny spangly jackets and showed them almost no Aikido at all!![/QUOTE]
I heard that story too, although the jacket was hot pink in colour the last time. I don't think it's true at all.

andrew

Talon
01-16-2003, 10:37 AM
Daniel Lindon, Thank you for that isnightful post. I'm sure you had more training than I since I'm still a newby. I guess the point is that Aikido, although is very interesting to study (because of body mechanics, joint locks, etc.) is not really an effective martial art. Since a modestly trained boxer form a no name gym could defeat most of the Aikido masters.

If that is true, which I cant argue with due to my limited experence in Aikido, then my question is.

Why even bother training Aikido (as a martial art)? Are we all really fooling ourselves about this art? I understand that Aikido is more than a martial art with its philosophy, spiritual element etc. If thats all it is then why even bother with the martial aspect?

If its so innefective when tested against modestly trained opponents why bother training the Aikido martial aspect?

This is a very disturbing thought.

If its true, I guess I will take up some other martial art to complement Aikido since I had the impression that if I concentrate on Aikido (only) one day I will become profficient enough at it that I'll be able to defend myself. If thats not true, I will still take Aikido for its all wonderful "secrets" but will also take up boxing or something else to ensure that I can defend myself.

The main problem with that the way I see it is if I take up another martilal art, Its style of fighting will be so much different than Aikido that I will never end up using Aikido anyway. For instance the boxers Maai, stance and philosophy is greately different than Aikido so in a self defence situation I guess I'd have to just pick one over the other.

Considering that a modestly trained opponent could take me out if I use my Aikido skills, I guess I'd end up using the other martial arts skills I've learned. This of course comes back to the same question: why train the martial side of Aikido if its innefective?

Personally i'm not so sure about a modestly trained boxer taking out most of the Aikido masters in a fight, but like i mentioned before i'm still a newby.

I'd love to hear everyones thoughts on the matter.

Paul

mike lee
01-16-2003, 10:43 AM
I guess the point is that Aikido, although is very interesting to study (because of body mechanics, joint locks, etc.) is not really an effective martial art. Since a modestly trained boxer form a no name gym could defeat most of the Aikido masters.
Even if said aikido master was holding a sword? — which by the way, is part of any good aikidoist's arsenal.

Talon
01-16-2003, 10:52 AM
Well I guess if the Boxer was holding a Gun he would.....lol

Lets stay on the topic of a hand to hand self defence encounter.

mike lee
01-16-2003, 11:05 AM
Lets stay on the topic of a hand to hand self defence encounter.
Well, I'm no "master," but I feel pretty confident that I could take most boxers down to the ground in about 15 seconds.

Don_Modesto
01-16-2003, 12:29 PM
The so-called dirty dozen wanted to fight Seagal supposedly for some bad remarks Seagal made about Chuck Norris when Seagal first became a movie dude.
Who are the dirty dozen and

what did Seagal say about Norris?

Thanks.

Don_Modesto
01-16-2003, 12:42 PM
You have touched upon one of the great myths of Aikido - that all of its Senseis are unbeatable martial masters. Truth be told, most of them could not last a single round with a modestly tained boxer from a no-name gym.

DJM: Whew! I'm glad whenever someone comes out and says that! (Where IS the unpronounceable one these days anyway?) It's so obvious when you sit back and think. But when the obvious is clouded by absurdity--think Sanctity of Life Day as authored by the Death Penalty Governer--we often seem overpowered. Tito Ortiz went to the top of the UFC in 18 months. 18. Segue back to Dan:

Sorry, its the truth. The two things which are never spoken are that it takes so many years to get any good at this art that you find yourself old before you are really competant.

But face it - we really like our specially trained ukes...

DJM: "Specially trained UKEs?! Uuuu! What you said!

As for the second - As Aikido teachers we are really limited as to our ability to deliver a body or head breaking strike simply because the average Sensei does not do any work on heavy bags or makiwara.

DJM: Spot on! Try a test: Next time someone comes in with a punch, just stand there or move into it. Chances are pretty good that it's going to hurt their wrist more than your abdomen.

DJM: Below, Mr. Nowicki agonizes, "If its so innefective when tested against modestly trained opponents why bother training the Aikido martial aspect?" That's the $64,000 question, isn't it. We here from the direct students that self-defense is sine qua non in aikido and yet, after Osensei, who has encouraged cross-training? We get the mixed message about spirituality and the invocation and expression of the universe, too, suggesting utility to be non sequitur; "Aikido is not about fighting." Well, I, for one, am confused. It's a murky question. I share Mr. Nowicki's confusion, appreciate Dan's incisiveness.

Young-In Park
01-16-2003, 01:21 PM
Why even bother training Aikido (as a martial art)? Are we all really fooling ourselves about this art? I understand that Aikido is more than a martial art with its philosophy, spiritual element etc. If thats all it is then why even bother with the martial aspect?

If its so innefective when tested against modestly trained opponents why bother training the Aikido martial aspect?
<sigh!> Another variation of the often maligned "Does Aikido Work?" thread...

If someone wanted to learn how to shoot a gun, they would go to a gun range. Typically after classroom instruction, they would practice shooting their gun. But since shooting at stationary paper targets that don't shoot back doesn't even come close to approximating a lethal force encounter, why would anyone bother going to a gun range?

Although police officers and soliders have been killed in gun fights, there seems, at least to my own limited knowledge, to be no blanket indictment questioning the effectiveness of firearms.

If a police officer shoots and/or is shot, there's an investigation. And instead of people arguing whether or not guns work, one would hope that firearms instructors analyze actions that could be addressed during training.

Then it begs the question, if say for example, an Aikidoka gets beat up or loses a fight, why people wonder whether or not Aikido "works." In my opinion, it seems people are too eager to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

People practice Aikido for all different reasons. But if someone's reason is for self defense, then you'd better imagine someone who's bigger, stronger, faster and smarter than you if your Aikido is going to "work."

And another thing: why do people continually insist on having the "Aikidoka vs Boxer" debate? Some people have asked how you do Aikido techniques on a boxer because they punch faster and stronger. Aside from the fact that Boxing is a sport and Aikido is a martial art, why would anyone in their right mind try deal with someone's strengths? Realistically, wouldn't you want to exploit their weaknesses instead? But then again, maybe its just me...

YoungIn Park

Erik
01-16-2003, 01:33 PM
Who are the dirty dozen and

what did Seagal say about Norris?
There are a couple of sides to this one but one perspective is that Bob Wall left no chance unturned at gaining a bit of publicity.

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/apr92/dirtydozen/dirtydozen.html

Nods in agreement on some of the stuff written recently in this thread.

Young-In Park, I didn't read this latter turn so much as aikido works or doesn't work but rather one of lets be honest about a few things. It's rather refreshing actually.

Don_Modesto
01-16-2003, 01:47 PM
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/apr92/dirtydozen/dirtydozen.html

DJM: Thanks for this.

Nods in agreement on some of the stuff written recently in this thread.

Young-In Park, I didn't read this latter turn so much as aikido works or doesn't work but rather one of lets be honest about a few things. It's rather refreshing actually.

DJM: My feelings exactly. Well put.

paw
01-16-2003, 02:04 PM
Huge appreciation for Messrs. Linden and Modesto's candor and honesty.

Regards,

Paul

Talon
01-16-2003, 02:53 PM
Erik Haselhofer,

Wery interesting article. Thanks for the link. By the way, thanks for all the responces to my post.

Please dont confuse my posts about Aikido's ineffectiveness as my beliefs about our art. They were simply "if", "then" statements leading to discussion on the topic.

Respectfully,

Paul

MattRice
01-16-2003, 03:12 PM
I feel two ways about all of this:

1. Crap, you mean I'm busting my @ss in the dojo nightly just so I can get cracked by a low grade boxer and not be able to do anything about it?

2. So what. 'nother Guiness please...

But seriously folks, What can we do? Go around challenging boxers to see if we get beat? Worry about it all the time so it ruins our practice? Cross train in different arts till my wife kicks me out of the house?

For myself, I have to accept that I won't win the Championship or beat the boxer or get down to 1% body fat or whatever (where's that Guiness anyway..?). I practice Aikido because I can't imagine not doing so. I practice it with martial intent becuase, well because women and men whom I respect with vastly more experience that I tell me I should. I don't get into "Well if it isn't going to work then why..." cuz that would drive me nutso.

I too appreciate this discussion: so much different than the usual aikido vs. whatever training method etc.

Diablo
01-16-2003, 04:54 PM
Of course, everybody will believe what they want to believe, but their have been many reports of him being a wife-beater and generally an arrogant person and being to rough with the extras on his movie sets. I have seen these interviews, but you could say they said it to get their 10 minutes of fame. Everybody has heard the stories about Gene Labelle choking him out and him pooping in his pants. Quote from Black Belt Magazine: "There are other stories of LeBell's prowess circulating around the martial arts community, including the time on a movie set that he reportedly sneaked up behind a noted actor and black belt and choked out the gentleman, allegedly causing the film star to lose sphincter control." http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/halloffame/html/163.html

You may even question his Budhism. Why do some point this out. There are several "devout" Christian movie stars (and NFL footbal players) that screw up left and right and are in the papers regularly.

Nobody is perfect, we are all human and have made mistakes we are not proud of. If anything, I have yet to see an actor do what he did for Aikido as Chuck Norris did for Karate.

Diablo

Peter Goldsbury
01-17-2003, 04:43 AM
Huge appreciation for Messrs. Linden and Modesto's candor and honesty.

Regards,

Paul
Agreed. On the other hand, K Chiba entered the Aikikai Hombu as a live-in deshi when the Founder was aged 72, clearly well past his physical prime. To judge from the interviews on AJ and other sites, this 20-year old, pretty well-versed in how to attack, was completely overwhelmed by the experience of trying to attack, and take uke, for O Sensei. Or is Chiba Shihan romanticizing about his experiences?

I agree entirely on the need for senior instructors to be honest about their abilities, to keep in shape, and to train sufficiently that they can handle their own students who cross-train and attack hard.

But I do not believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water, which seems to be the general tenour of where this thread has wandered to. If aikidoists are generally past it by the age of 40 in any case, then perhaps we need rules and weight categories.

Yours sincerely,

PeterR
01-17-2003, 05:20 AM
If aikidoists are generally past it by the age of 40 in any case, then perhaps we need rules and weight categories.
Some of the best players in Competitive Aikido are past 40, and there are no weight categories.

I also personally know a number of superbly conditioned Aikidoists that would give your average boxer a run for his money - in fact if all the guy does is box I pity the boxer.

There is an old saying. Before you take on an old man find out what sort of young man he was. I have the strange feeling that Chiba or Nariyama for instance would finish something long before youthful stamina had a chance to make a difference.

Now last night I spent 30 minutes doing Judo randori with a 16 year old. He was good but I dominated in the beginning, by the end I was dog meat. On the ground gasping for breath (over 40) I kept thinking I should have throated him when I had the chance. Then I smiled, got up and got tossed some more. I do Budo for pleasure.

Ron Tisdale
01-17-2003, 09:47 AM
Peter Rhese:

Bingo!

RT

Young-In Park
01-17-2003, 10:06 AM
If aikidoists are generally past it by the age of 40 in any case, then perhaps we need rules and weight categories.
Again, if someone wanted to learn how to shoot a gun, they would go to a shooting range. After classroom instruction, they would practice shooting at targets. Although it isn't even a close approximation of a lethal force encounter, presumably they are learning how to operate their gun and marksmanship.

After practicing things such as front sight, sight alignment, trigger pull and trigger reset, they can employ their skills in more "realisitic" scenarios.

Even after 2000+ rounds, I'm still working on the trigger pull with my finger.

But, apparently for reasons beyond my limited comprehension, some people in Aikido do their techniques with, in my opinion, too much speed and strength. And in Aikido, you're moving more body parts than just your finger...

Some people don't bother actually learning the technique (ie mechanics and purpose) and rely too much on their physical prowess. They seem to equate slamming their uke on to the mat as hard as possible as being "martial."

Why are some people so quick to criticize the way Aikido is practiced? A common complaint is that Aikido attacks are "not realistic."

If the logic of learning how to shoot isn't enough, I suggest playing catch with a five year old. Take the ball and throw it at the child as hard as you can - because in "real life," nobody is going to count to three and throw underhanded at a slow speed.

The child (or target) will never catch the ball nor learn to catch it. But those fortunate enough to have people patient enough through the painfully slow developmental period of learning to catch a ball can now catch a ball thrown at them. Even if the ball is thrown at a different angle or speed, the catcher can make the appropriate adjustments without emotional exertion.

What happens when you lose your physical strength? Instead of bothering to actually take the time to learn the techniques, we could always institute artificial props, such as "rules and weight categories."

I was unfortunate enough to read Terry Dobson's experience attacking Ueshiba. Apparently he decided to "test" him and attacked full speed. After arriving on the mat faster than before, Ueshiba asked him, "Are you OK?"

About a year ago, I went to a Saotome seminar. When I had the opportunity to attack him, I decided to "test" him (and I wonder why people always tell me I'm disrespectful towards elders...). After literally falling flat on my face, he bent over and asked me, "Are you OK?"

I was at reunion-like seminar recently. And I was literally hunting down a Seidokan 6th dan on the mat. Other people told me he was really good, so I wanted to test him (ettiqute and respect?). After attacking harder didn't work, I tried to counter him. After reversing my counters and throwing me around, he got tired of "playing" with me. He wanted to talk to his old friends.

Come to think of it, there should be "rules" - rules to protect innocent and inexperienced Aikidoka from the evil clutches of the elderly and accomplished shihans and senseis.

YoungIn Park

Don_Modesto
01-17-2003, 01:03 PM
This thread has produced some very quotable material; almost as good as Haper's Index. Thanks, all, and especially Mr. Carbone for starting it!
I feel two ways about all of this:

1. Crap, you mean I'm busting my @ss in the dojo nightly just so I can get cracked by a low grade boxer and not be able to do anything about it?

2. So what. 'nother Guiness please...
If aikidoists are generally past it by the age of 40 in any case, then perhaps we need rules and weight categories.
rofl
I spent 30 minutes doing Judo randori with a 16 year old. He was good but I dominated in the beginning, by the end I was dog meat. On the ground gasping for breath (over 40) I kept thinking I should have throated him when I had the chance.
Deja vu.
Even after 2000+ rounds, I'm still working on the trigger pull with my finger...But, apparently for reasons beyond my limited comprehension, some people in Aikido do their techniques with, in my opinion, too much speed and strength. And in Aikido, you're moving more body parts than just your finger...
Intimations of Zeno's paradox here.
Take the ball and throw it at the child as hard as you can - because in "real life," nobody is going to count to three and throw underhanded at a slow speed...The child (or target) will never catch the ball nor learn to catch it.
Good for children and beginners, and then?

Thanks, again.

Bronson
01-17-2003, 01:17 PM
And I was literally hunting down a Seidokan 6th dan on the mat.

Just out of curiosity...who was it?

Bronson

Ron Tisdale
01-17-2003, 02:01 PM
Come to think of it, there should be "rules" - rules to protect innocent and inexperienced Aikidoka from the evil clutches of the elderly and accomplished shihans and senseis.

YoungIn Park
Funny, I just posted a similar story on ebudo not too long ago....

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=12207&pagenumber=2

RT

DGLinden
01-29-2003, 08:39 AM
Been a while since that post a couple weeks ago, but I'm back and would like to comment on all the insight.

Thanks Peter, Don, and others for the understanding. I've spent thirty years training in aikido and not a week goes by I don't wonder why I still do it. Mornings getting out of bed, trying to pick up dropped pencils - you know the drill.

I believe what I said in that earlier post, but you must read it carefully. I never said that all shihans were unable to stop a boxer, I know I could myself because I train for it. Probably Mike could, but really a pro is just that, a pro. I was refering to professional athletes - and old men and women, and that there are reasons why there are no old pro athletes. Real, honest to god reasons that have to do with milage and distance on the body.

Aikido helps me get out of bed. I spent last weekend with twenty five godan and rokudans training in aikido under Saotome Sensei. They were all marvelous, amazing people who are vital and healthy and can move like people over fifty usually can't. Aikido keeps us all moving and healthy. Isn't that reason enough to keep training? That we get to perform majic is just one of the cupcakes in the big picnic.

And really, I can't remember the last time I really had to 'defend' myself - for all we receive from training, at this point, it is simply not relevant. The point was - again - that we tend to mythologize senseis when the truth is that most are very good at what they train, but that very few train at fighting. So Segal might have actually been beaten...

Let me ask a question here. Do you think he could stay with your average Ranger platoon, Force Recon Squad or Seal Team for one mornings work? Really. I think perspective is necessary when dealing with anyone who is highly trained in a very narrow field.

"To come into accord with that part of God which flows through all things..."

Misogi-no-Gyo
01-29-2003, 10:37 PM
Greetings to all!

I have only just now come to this thread, and could not possibly address all of the individual erroneous material found in the posts, and associated "news" material found in the posted links. Since brevity may serve me better here - I will forego trying to clear up what none will chose to believe anyway.

...anyway, having been there through all of it, and knowing all the players quite well - including many who were with Seagal since the late 70's, several fellow aikidoka from our dojo who served as both his personal assistants and macrobiotic cook during the years of 1991 to 1999, knowing other unmentionable parties, along with being either on the set, or having my close senpai & kohai be on the set for all of the movies since above the law... I could say much to plainly portray each and every one of these events as I know them to have occurred. However, nobody really wants to know the truth. I say this because what really happened is really rather BORING! Except where it isn't, and then nobody would believe it even if I had it on film (a-la the Zapruder film and associated evidence and the idiotic conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole triggerman to ice JFK)

Now on the other hand, the aikido - at that time, at least, really was something!

<rant>
In all these years, having traveled incognito to many dojos outside of our former and current affiliation, I have only ever heard two things on the mat from various students and even some high-profile instructors. The first thing I would hear would be about how bad of an aikidoka he was, how his movies were bad for aikido, and his "public" persona was detracting from how great the art really was. This all from person's who had never met him directly, nor trained with any of his senior students. The second thing I would hear is the sound of a student's black belt falling to the ground, just previous to declarations of "I wasted ten years learning impractical dance moves, and now I must start over." This from handfuls of students who finally did have the chance to meet and train with him and his senior students.
</rant>

Here is the one truth I will leave you with...

"Believe half of what you see, and NONE of what you hear or read." for just as in aikido, if you don't have a direct experience of it 9read - feel it), you will never learn what the teacher really is doing up there.

Aren't you glad I was "brief?"

locknthrow
01-30-2003, 01:59 AM
Well this may not be the place but in case you didn't know a new Seagal film came out straight to video called the "Foreigner". It's ok but the action is mostly shooting. There was one scene that had a good kotegaeshi and yonkyo in though I think it was about 5 seconds long. Not many fight scenes.

To the above poster: What happened that we wouldn't believe? What's the harm in telling?n

Abasan
01-30-2003, 04:53 AM
He was in Kuala Lumpur recently shooting a film, was that the one?

Ron Tisdale
01-30-2003, 12:56 PM
Shaun,

Even if most people don't believe you, if the truth comes out, at least it has a chance. If you say nothing, then nothing can change.

Please tell us what you know...

Sincerely,

Ron Tisdale

locknthrow
01-31-2003, 01:01 AM
To Ahmad:

No its probably not the same movie all of this one was in Europe

Dennis Hooker
01-31-2003, 08:32 AM
Let me say this and then I will leave it alone. For supposedly compassionate people many Aikido adherents are judgmental as hell. I do not know Mr. Segal personally but we did attend the same seminars years ago. I have had at least one student leave my camp after gaining his shodan and join Mr. Segal's group the next day. At the same time opening his own dojo. All the better for me in the long run and I understand he was ousted from Mr. Segal's group not long thereafter and went to the AAA. I have promoted at least one of Mr. Sagal's ex-students to shodan and he was a wonderful old man. I got the better deal for sure. I don't like his movies so I do not watch them. His personal strengths and weaknesses are his battle they do not affect me or cause an effect on my actions or life. I am glad my personal life is not so public as his. I am older and I believe I manage my life and my words with a great deal more tact that Mr. Segal showed in his early Hollywood days but that is his business. I know some cigar smoking, whiskey guzzling whoremongering Aikido ideals who would have faired much worse in the public limelight had the public had any interest in them. You know what ? In reality none of this has any meaningful impact on my life and so it does not hurt me one bit to be compassionate and tolerant and non judgmental. \

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

Jim ashby
01-31-2003, 10:20 AM
Hear Hear Mr Hooker!!

Have fun

Daniel Blanco
02-02-2003, 08:16 PM
I would like to have sensei segal conduct a seminar at suffolk aikikai with the permission of my instructor respectfully if anyone knows how to relay this info please do so and reply to me.

PeterR
02-02-2003, 08:21 PM
Daniel did we meet - I think we did. I tried to visit your dojo each time I was at the BNL. Please give my regards to Gene and Debbie.

The dojo is one of those gems.
I would like to have sensei segal conduct a seminar at suffolk aikikai with the permission of my instructor respectfully if anyone knows how to relay this info please do so and reply to me.

Misogi-no-Gyo
02-03-2003, 03:52 AM
Shaun,

Even if most people don't believe you, if the truth comes out, at least it has a chance. If you say nothing, then nothing can change.

Please tell us what you know...

Sincerely,

Ron Tisdale
Mr. Tisdale, having once taken on the role as dojo video and photo archivist, historian and editor-in-chief of "AIKIDO" the Dojo Newsletter Magazine for (the still closed) Aikido Tenshin Dojo, I took a keen interest in keeping close tabs on all of these stories, both from the viewpoint of the key inside players (and person's who were very close to them,) and of course, the press with their goal of simply selling whatever rubbish they were peddling at the time.

When you combine the “quick to condemn” tongues and deep-seeded resentment - on so many levels - by many (high ranking) in the aikido community, the supposed ramblings by his ex-wive(s) "overheard" by "nameless sources" and the "sickness" that is anything related to the sycophantic nature of producers, their underlings and the uncontrollable penchant of wanna-be-famous, stuntmen, etc. in Hollywood, and add to that the troll-like leeches so aptly called "the press" with their complete lack of human dignity when dealing with any news-worthy individual's feelings, or their family members, or anyone’s personal or professional reputation for that matter – irrespective of what is true - simply to sell more papers or magazines, then factor in the gullible nature of 99 percent of the people in this world who actually believe that the dribble they read in their local papers, or see on CNN is "unbiased" reporting, so much so that they huddle around water coolers each day arguing over which version of the crap they read is more believable, and about what “they” would do, if ever they found themselves in someone else’s shoes, and you have a fairly good chance of understanding why when it is in regards to Steven Seagal, Truth (with a capitol “T”) has no real place, on the mat, or off.

Funny thing: I have read, and sometimes even posted the actual happenings of these events in past years only to be finding myself laughing out loud at the next individual’s uneducated “opinion” based upon comments he or she had read in some magazine article or had seen on the E! True Hollywood Story.

Funny thing: I was contacted by the producers of that pitiful sham of a show because they were trying to add one more insult on to their list - that Seagal had not actually been promoted to 7th Dan, i.e. that he had embellished that part of his resume, as well.

Funny thing: I provided them of the exact date, along with the names of everyone who was with him at the time he received his Dan Certificate directly from Kishomaru Doshu, while training in the private training facilities at Honbu Dojo. The pictures of him bowing as he received it from the Doshu's hands were quite convincingly realistic.

Funny thing: When I offered to check their “facts” before they aired the show, they declined. Their loss. However who really lost was Seagal, himself, along with every single person who watched that show thinking they had the "True" Holywood Story. They got the Hollywood story, all right. Do you actually think that someone would green light a tell-all documentary on the crap Seagal has had to put up with from ass-kissing, little mamas boys, and their silicone-carting, rhino-plasticized sidekicks with the whitened teeth? I mean these are the same people that year after year pay Joan Rivers and her brainwashed daughter to get up on an international platform and belittle actors and actresses, on the most nerve-racking day of their lives – when they are being judged on their “talent” as actors, if you can believe the silliness in that – for how they choose to dress. Not that Mr. Seagal ever faired any better in that regard, as we have seen from some of the colorful posts regarding his choice of “garb-de-jure.” On this very website.

He should receive ten dollars for every person that had to sit through that re-hashed heap of trash, most of which was simply false – at best! As a matter of protocol, the money should be pried from the cold, dead hands of the reporters, cameramen, editors, script writers, and most of all the PRODUCERS of such folly.

To think, all this from someone who left Seagal’s organization as it took its last breath in 1997. I am not defending him, for he does not need it, does not ask for it, and will not benefit from it in any way.

Just for the record, Tenshin Bugei Gakuen & Aikido Tenshin Dojo was closed in1997 by Matsuoka Sensei for reasons that shall remain private. Many people posting on various websites have speculated as to why, but have only repeated “information” that we posted on the websites of our affiliates. I mention this because the truth behind that story has also been so twisted by those hoping to maximize their profits upon our exit. FOR THE RECORD - Anyone that makes claims of “rising from the ashes of…” or “continuing to spread the spirit and belief of…” Tenshin Bugei Gakuen or Aikido Tenshin Dojo - or the best one, “teaching the techniques of “Tenshin Aikido,” something that never existed when the dojo was opened, should be viewed with about as much credibility as the peddlers of the aforementioned E! malarkey.

There is simply one reason why the B.S. continues to be king, while the truth lies buried by the side of the road without a head stone – “You can’t handle the truth!”

…I have wanted to use that line since I heard it from Mr. Nicholson.

Suru
02-03-2003, 12:49 PM
I've heard that some shihan refer to him as "Steven Seagull." Kinda funny I think.

Drew

Daniel Blanco
02-03-2003, 08:38 PM
thanks for your reply peter i will say hi to gene/deb for you. I am currently going for my fourth Q Test,any advice. how long have you been training. Still would like to see a seminar with Sensei Segal. Let me know if you are ever in NY.

PeterR
02-03-2003, 09:17 PM
thanks for your reply peter i will say hi to gene/deb for you. I am currently going for my fourth Q Test,any advice. how long have you been training. Still would like to see a seminar with Sensei Segal. Let me know if you are ever in NY.Good luck on the test - all I can say is breath and take your time.

Training in Aikido? Only about 8 years.

Frankly speaking your dojo is quite small and I would think that SS when he does give seminars prefers a larger venue. Cost might be a problem also but that is just a guess. In any case I am not Aikikai so I guess your sensei would have a clearer idea.

Dennis Hooker
02-05-2003, 12:15 PM
I've heard that some shihan refer to him as "Steven Seagull." Kinda funny I think.

Drew
I believe the latter spelling is closer to the traditional family pronunciation of the sir name Seagal than the latter version given for the move carrier. It was and still is pronounced more like the gangster fellow of the 1940s Bugsy Seagal. Now if I could just find another way to pronounce Hooker.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

Suru
02-05-2003, 03:55 PM
I'm laughing out loud, Hooker Sensei, because I don't think sixth degree black belts are really too concerned about what their name sounds like!

Drew

Mike Collins
02-05-2003, 07:09 PM
How about Hoo Kay?

Kinda has a ring to it, no? Hookay sensay?

PeterR
02-05-2003, 07:14 PM
I met a very pretty young lady whose name was spelled Sexsmith - she insisted here name was Sessmith.

peteswann
02-06-2003, 03:28 AM
And there is the UK Comedy 'Keeping Up Appearances' where the leading lady's name is spelled 'Bucket' but she insists on pronouncing it 'Bouqet'!!

And in Slough (I think) wherre I live I have heard of a Doctor D'Eath - but I'm not sure how they pronounce it!! :D

MattRice
02-06-2003, 01:09 PM
My parents have doctors named:

Dr. Hurtzler and Dr. Harm

Bronson
02-06-2003, 02:04 PM
There's a chiropractor in Kalamazoo MI named Dr. Bender :D

Bronson

Daniel Blanco
02-06-2003, 07:06 PM
Peter Rehse,

Thanks for reply, I will stay focused on my exam and Balanced with good Breathing. I went to your site, you have a great DOJO to train maybe I can train there someday. Right now I have to get ready for six inches of snow that is arriving in NewYork tonight.

PeterR
02-06-2003, 07:32 PM
Everyone's welcome. Don't forget to let us know how your exam went. Here we get a light dusting of snow which doesn't last more than a few days. I like it this way.
Peter Rehse,

Thanks for reply, I will stay focused on my exam and Balanced with good Breathing. I went to your site, you have a great DOJO to train maybe I can train there someday. Right now I have to get ready for six inches of snow that is arriving in NewYork tonight.

Chris Li
02-06-2003, 10:14 PM
I believe the latter spelling is closer to the traditional family pronunciation of the sir name Seagal than the latter version given for the move carrier. It was and still is pronounced more like the gangster fellow of the 1940s Bugsy Seagal. Now if I could just find another way to pronounce Hooker.

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com
Years ago, before the movies, I saw him in a segment on (I think) "PM Magazine". Anyway, at that time they were pronouncing the name "Seagal" as in "Bugsy Seagal".

Best,

Chris

Blake Newman
10-10-2005, 07:21 AM
www.tenshinaikido.com
:circle: :square: :triangle:

Yossi
10-11-2005, 06:55 PM
First off yes im a Seagal fan:p That being said. I hear many people say his Aikido isnt "real". What do they mean by this?I know the Aikido he does in movies is not the Aikido we do. He seems to improvise and have almost his own style. Last I heard he was 7th Degree Dan. That is a very high rank. I think that deserves some respect. How many of us will attain that rank. I have also heard he is one of the highest ranked Westerners in Aikido. Is this true? Why do people say he is not an Aikidoka? Is it just personal opinion? Thanks for you're thoughts.


just watch his documentry (The Path Beyond Thought), and you'll see that not only his aikido real, but also very unique and respected.

alcantur
10-11-2005, 11:53 PM
Well, where to start?
Aikido techniques from Steven Seagal are known to be powerful and effective... but it is also because Seagal is quite a big and strong guy. It's not easy, even for a good aikidoka or any other martial artist to beat a guy that is that massive, that strong and also that well trained in aikido (7th dan is not a joke).

It is also known that his attitude shows a lack of aiki spirit. Seagal is arrogant, unpolite, rude and well known for chasing down stunts in the film sets to train or enacts sudden Aikido demonstrations with or without the acceptance of his occasional couterparts. He also loves to challenge any other martial artist present at the place to show his superiority (as he've done earlier with Don Draeger in kenjutsu, and also been beaten), being charged a couple of times for choking fellow actors and stunts, and that's how he got involved in that choking incident with Gene Lebell... that has finally been confirmed by eye witnesses. If I find the link or the full article where all is finally told i'll post it here, I'm sure I have it somewhere.

Anyway....
Seagal is a good fighter, not a good aikidoka (let's not talk about his acting), so I wouldn't use him as a rolemodel, or choose him to be my sensei. I can respect his technique, respect his achievements, respect his effort in showing aikido to the masses, but i can't accept his attitude, specially is he is trying to portray himself as a sensei. The word Sensei...teacher....involves a concept that not fits him...he's not a good example of what an aikidoka must be.

best regards

Rodrigo

alcantur
10-12-2005, 12:03 AM
Just check this interview to take a glimpse on seagal's attitude (it's not the one i promissed, but it helps to find out the kind of person Seagal is):

http://www.stevenseagal.movienet.org.uk/article2.html

alcantur
10-12-2005, 10:43 AM
Here is some info taken from E-Budo.com forums
(The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly > Bad Budo)
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12215&page=4&pp=15
Information has been posted in 3 messages by Mark Tripp.
Who is Mark Tripp?
Mark Tripp
6th Dan Judo, 8th Dan Jujitsu
Sensei, entertainer
Member od the Budokan Judo/Jujitsu of Michigan
Holly, MI
USA
This information was also found in an interview to one of the
stunts and another with Bob Wall I've read.
Who is Bob Wall?
Bob Wall
Black Belt Tang Soo Do, Black Belt Tae Kwon Do
US Karate Professional Champion 1970
Also practiced Judo, Kempo Karate, Jujitsu, Okinawa-Te,
Shoryn-Ryu.
Co-owner of Sherman Oaks Karate Studio since 1968 with
Chuck Norris.
Film star and stunt coordinator
Los Angeles, CA
USA
Some research I've done on Mr Tripp backgrounds shows him
as a very reliable person.
Stunts working at Under Siege also worked with Wall, and as
far as I was able to research, he has been at the film set the
same day the incident took part.
Here are the posts (with notes between <<>> from the things
I've read from other sources and my experience in first-aid and
rescue)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As to Mr. Seagal being choked out by Gene LeBell on the set
of Under Seige, I can state for the record it is not unproven
rumor, but fact.

Prior to the court settlement, Mr. LeBell told me first hand
about the event. After court settlement Mr. LeBell no longer
speaks about it.

However, Bob Wall has also confirmed the story, to me
personally, and the events of that day.

Not looking to flame or insult, just making the facts known.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The facts, many of which are here all ready.

Mr. Segal has been rough on stunt people, and injured a friend
of Gene.<<Note: In the interview to the stunt said Seagal
changed the fight routines frequently without coordinating with
them and they got injured in the process of filming. Also
Seagal were bullying them all the time off-cameras>>

Holding court on the set of Under Seige, Mr. Seagal claimed
to be able to use his "ki power" and prevent being choked out,
<<Note: in the stunt interview, the guy said that as soon as
LeBell showed in the place, Seagal said that again in order to
provocate LeBell and show him he was the roughest guy in
the place. LeBell went there to verify the information he got
from other of the stunts and to humbling Seagal if necessary>>.
Gene said "I'll take that bet".

Gene put the choke on, and Segal tapped out at once and said
"I wasn't ready". Gene said "Let me know when you are ready"

Seagal said he was, and when Gene began to put the choke
on, he attacked Gene in an attempt to counter before the choke
was on, and grabed for his groin.

Gene kept the hold but sprawled, then compressed him. Mr.
Seagal passed out, and made a mess in his pants. This part
of the story was verified by Bob Wall who has the evidence
from the set that Mr. Seagal needed cleaning and new clothes.
<<Note: as an emergency rescuer, I can affirm that once
you pass out, you loose control of the body. So, if Seagal
really passed out, he may have lost control of his bladder>>.

When Seagal came around, he had Gene thrown off the set,
blacklisted him as a stunt man, and made a law suit against
him.

However, the Inquirer caught wind of this and ran a small story
about the event. It was clear the story would get a lot more
coverage if it went to court. <<Note: Some says the Inquirer
is not a reliable source, but a sensacionalist tabloid, but it is
evident that the coverage forced Seagal to an off-court
arrangement>>

So the settlement was, Gene can work, and no law suit, BUT,
he can not speak of the event.

Mr. Wall, who created the dirty dozen, and has many more
Seagal stories, is not bound by such events. I spoke to
Gene before the Gag order, and have spoken at great length
to Mr. Wall.

This is the story as both men related it to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, in reality there is a great deal of truth in the post. So
say otherwise is to infer I am a liar and that, lacking proof,
would be a bit much.

I have spoken to Gene directly about this.

I have spoken to Bob Wall directly about this.

I have spoken to two other stunt men on the set about this.

I'll bet that is more than anyone else here can honestly say.

There was indeed a law suit, Gene did choke out Seagal
and yes he had an accident.

Believe whatever you wish; but from my interviews I know
what the facts are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Neil Mick
10-12-2005, 03:07 PM
Wait...Steven Seagal is an actor?????

No, really...quit messing around... :p

Mashu
10-12-2005, 03:12 PM
Bash Steven Seagal threads must follow some sort of moon cycle.

:)

tenshinaikidoka
10-12-2005, 03:15 PM
Well, where to start?
Aikido techniques from Steven Seagal are known to be powerful and effective... but it is also because Seagal is quite a big and strong guy. It's not easy, even for a good aikidoka or any other martial artist to beat a guy that is that massive, that strong and also that well trained in aikido (7th dan is not a joke).

It is also known that his attitude shows a lack of aiki spirit. Seagal is arrogant, unpolite, rude and well known for chasing down stunts in the film sets to train or enacts sudden Aikido demonstrations with or without the acceptance of his occasional couterparts. He also loves to challenge any other martial artist present at the place to show his superiority (as he've done earlier with Don Draeger in kenjutsu, and also been beaten), being charged a couple of times for choking fellow actors and stunts, and that's how he got involved in that choking incident with Gene Lebell... that has finally been confirmed by eye witnesses. If I find the link or the full article where all is finally told i'll post it here, I'm sure I have it somewhere.

Anyway....
Seagal is a good fighter, not a good aikidoka (let's not talk about his acting), so I wouldn't use him as a rolemodel, or choose him to be my sensei. I can respect his technique, respect his achievements, respect his effort in showing aikido to the masses, but i can't accept his attitude, specially is he is trying to portray himself as a sensei. The word Sensei...teacher....involves a concept that not fits him...he's not a good example of what an aikidoka must be.

best regards

Rodrigo

Well, I must say, isn't it ironic that you say Seagal Shihan is not acting in an Aiki way, yet you are not acting in the spirit of Aikido either. Many times I have seen these same threads disrespecting someone or another, famous or not, and it is disturbing. I practise Aikido not only for the martial aspect (self defense) but for spiritual and emotional content as well. Harmony and peace are center points to the art, and yet I seem to see people make rude and degrading statements regarding someone else.

Here are the facts...Steven Seagal Shihan Does Aikido, He is a 7th Dan in Aikido, He began training in the early 70's and has operated schools devoted to Aikido and Japanese culture.

Why is it that we must keep bringing someting up that happened over 10 years ago, and everyone already knows happed (re: Judo Gene choking out Seagal). It happened, Seagal got choked, so what? Even the best at what they do can be had by others. No one person is superior and there is always someone better. But you take what you have with whom you ahve it.

My point is why can we not get along and point out good things, instead of bickering and pointing out the bad things. Peace among all of us would be better than any differences of opinion we may have. We are all sharing a common ground, Aikido. Lets all, as Aikidoka, stop spreading anger or disrespect (however you want to look at it) and lets just talk about good ole fashioned Aikido.

Of course, I will probably get ridiculed for this post, but I think we all need to look in the mirror and see who we are. I am not exluded from this point of view either, I am an offender of speaking in a negative fashion!!!!! But I am trying to make more postive things occur than negative.

B

Amassus
10-12-2005, 04:34 PM
Thanks Brendon. Well put.

Aiki-fruity hugs all around :)

Human nature being what it is, means that we have flaws. What you see on this thread are just opinions. I am impressed by how you seek to follow the ideals of aikido, but please don't be too harsh on us mere mortals ;) Life is a journey and we are all trying to improve (I hope).

Disclaimer: the above is said in the most light-hearted of ways.

tenshinaikidoka
10-12-2005, 06:50 PM
LOL, well Dean, thanks for the reply. What I was trying to say (and I think mere words on a screen tend to make it appear in a different light than what would be said) is that I just wish we could focus more on postive than negative. Hey, I am not perfect, nor would I ever claim to be...in fact, I have many flaws which, well, would take far too long to go into here (LOL)!!!!!!

Anyway, I hope I did not come across too gruff or rude, it was not intended that way at all. My idea is to just sit down with everyone and drink a beer or 10!!!!!! And of course, practise Aikido!!!!!

stelios
10-13-2005, 03:44 AM
In one of his movies (connot remember which) his name is Gino and he wanlks into a pool bar and breaks the bones of enerybody there. At a point he applies nikyo to a big fat guy but-miracusly- the guy manages to stand up and confront him.
I asked my master (4th Dan F.D'Agata) if this could ever be true. He preposed to show me. I am 100kg and my master 60kg and no matter how hard I tried (even played a bit dirty) I could never escape the nikyo lock.
As previously said by another, movies is something but real Aikido is something else.

Hogan
10-13-2005, 11:58 AM
In one of his movies (connot remember which) his name is Gino and he wanlks into a pool bar and breaks the bones of enerybody there.
Think this movie was OUT FOR JUSTICE.

At a point he applies nikyo to a big fat guy but-miracusly- the guy manages to stand up and confront him.
Think this happened in a different movie called EXIT WOUNDS. The person was able to get out of it by grabbing the thumb of Seagal and twisting up. Don't think it impossible to do.

iHeretic
10-13-2005, 05:24 PM
I don't give a monkey's about Seagal...

And in Slough (I think) wherre I live I have heard of a Doctor D'Eath - but I'm not sure how they pronounce it!! :D

... but I do know how to pronounce D'Eath: Dee-Ath. It's usually written De'Ath.

:)

Adam Huss
10-13-2005, 05:56 PM
Seagal, or Take Sensei as his students know him, tested to (i think) sandan. The rest of his rank is meio (meyo?), honorary, given to him for his contribution in spreading aikido (which is a legitimate reason for recieving meio ranking). He is from MIchigan (I think Lansing, not sure), and was promoted to shodan by Fumio Toyoda Sensei (a fact I found really interesting). THe correct pronunciation of his name is Seegel, as he is of Jewish origin (don't know how closely that relates to him, the religion I mean). He has a few children that he doesn't give (gave, they may be over 18 by now) child support to, and he used to practice the facial expression on the cover of Above the Law for hours on his bedroom mirror. I've never trained with Seagal Sensei, but from what I see on Path Beyond Thought and the Aiki Expo demo that his technique looks pretty dynamic. I don't know what he's doing with training now, but from his ealier days (in Japan) it looks like they trained pretty hard (which I like), and its pretty bragable to be a gaijin and open a dojo in Japan (although he kind of had a hookup with that). I like his older movies, but the newer ones have been kinda hard to sit though although I still try to see each one (at my old dojo we threatened to demote a guy for not liking Seagal movies!).

Mike Fugate
10-13-2005, 06:01 PM
Im sorry but I have to comment on this thread... People say Seagal is arrogent, yet at the same time I always hear from other Aikido practitioners out here how effective their art is, yet none of them prove it in tourny. That sounds arrogent to me! Yes I know the philosophy of Aikido and yes I love it, but Aikido being an art of peace is just an excuse to not compete! I study Shaolin along with Karate and Aikido, and from experiences, my Sifu's teacher a Shaolin Grandmaster, frequently put on tournements! And yes we compete, full contact,,,because if you are being traditionally trained in the real art you should have no worries. Tournys are different than going out looking for a fight, it is a chance to test you skill and grow. I mean in Shaolin, I was told by my Sifu that in the old days they would take up to a couple of months at time to heal from a sparring match. Yet they were peacefull tru and true. Seagal arrogent? Maybe, but he tried, failed, and learned too :ki:

mathewjgano
10-13-2005, 09:18 PM
"People say Seagal is arrogent, yet at the same time I always hear from other Aikido practitioners out here how effective their art is, yet none of them prove it in tourny. That sounds arrogent to me!"

Some think tourny's breed arrogance. Now, of course it comes down to the individual as to how they approach it in their mind, just as for any Aikidoka with regard to ability. People prove their ability in a number of ways. At my dojo back home in the US we never compete in tourny's, but when training with someone with some ability whom we know, we step it up gradually. Arrogance is usually based in assumptions of yourself with regard to other people, wouldn't you say? It's a natural part of learning though, in my opinion.

"Yes I know the philosophy of Aikido and yes I love it, but Aikido being an art of peace is just an excuse to not compete!"

Just an excuse? Are you sure you "know" the philosophy? Who derived that basic philosophy? Ueshiba, who had competed plenty from what I understand. I'd say it's a lot more than a mere excuse. Perhaps it takes a bit of arrogance to know it, but it sounds to me like you're being a bit arrogant in regards to your presumptions about Aikido philosophy. And, don't forget that there are a great many who participate in tourny's, though, yes, the vast majority do not.

"And yes we compete, full contact,,,because if you are being traditionally trained in the real art you should have no worries."

I agree tourny's are one way to measure ability. However, they are not the sum total of this ability.

"I mean in Shaolin, I was told by my Sifu that in the old days they would take up to a couple of months at time to heal from a sparring match. Yet they were peacefull tru and true."

"True" how? I don't understand that part. I suppose "peacefull" is a relative term. I'd rather not have to recover from training in that long a period of time. I don't know what degree of recovery you're refering to so my impression could be way off, but that sounds like a weakened state someone might be able to exploit when it really mattered.

"Seagal arrogent? Maybe, but he tried, failed, and learned too"

I never met the man. But it sounds to me like here you're just making an excuse to be arrogant ;) Just teasing of course.
Take care, and thanks for the opportunity to consider some new ideas,
Matt

Mike Fugate
10-14-2005, 12:06 AM
Just an excuse? Are you sure you "know" the philosophy? Who derived that basic philosophy? Ueshiba, who had competed plenty from what I understand. I'd say it's a lot more than a mere excuse. Perhaps it takes a bit of arrogance to know it, but it sounds to me like you're being a bit arrogant in regards to your presumptions about Aikido philosophy. And, don't forget that there are a great many who participate in tourny's, though, yes, the vast majority do not.
Ok, first off, just because the founder did somthing doesnt really mean much when you are the one in the hot seat. Our Grandmaster could do almost superhuman feats, never have I seen anyone who could do what he was able to do, it was almost "magical". Does that mean we have a great art? Maybe,,,I believe it is complete, but I have heard of many who would resite stories about what Grandmaster did, and he did this and that, yet they always somehow manage to evade confrontation in full contact. This is exactly why so many people have so little respect for traditional martial arts in MMA competitions.
For the record, I do believe Aikido works! I know first hand it does, I have felt it, and I have executed it in real situations, it is one of the most beautiful arts I have ever seen.
I am not pointing a finger at any certain person, but trying to remind anyone who may get too full of there art, or 'what their art is capable of, but of course one must be at a high level in which they arent yet but they do know of OTHERS can do it.
True" how? I don't understand that part. I suppose "peacefull" is a relative term. I'd rather not have to recover from training in that long a period of time. I don't know what degree of recovery you're refering to so my impression could be way off, but that sounds like a weakened state someone might be able to exploit when it really mattered.
What I meant was "In Shaolin they "were" peacefull true and true, or they lived a life of peace. Buddhist priests, Shaolin C'han. They "were" amongst the most peacefull individuals on the planet, and if one would look closley at a style that is still authentic they may see alot of similarites between Shaolin and Aikido. But as for the sparring matches, it isnt that ALL the matches resulted in 2 months of recovery, but that is an example of how severe they were. They were not weak in anyway, but all very strong resulting in sparring that we would call Extreme. Just making an example of passive monks that even believe in competing, they did against each other in the temples, and even the one who raised my Sifu did out of the temple conducting many of matches, ussually out in parks, and he had "Open Challenges" from any styles that wished to participate.
Call it arrogence or what ever you wish, but I am just comenting on what I have seen, felt, and done. And I think people must take a serious look at their arts, and themselves. I understand not having to prove anything if we know amongst us that we are good, but when respect is being lost everyday, we may wanna take a closer look. :ki: Oh yeah, I do like Seagal great movies, great fight scenes

Neil Mick
10-16-2005, 04:53 PM
...but Steven Seagal, an "actor??"

Hmm...hard to believe, but if you say so.

In which movie, did he "act?" :D

(and no, shooting a gun or beating up bad guys DOESN'T COUNT...) ;)

mathewjgano
10-17-2005, 04:01 AM
Ok, first off, just because the founder did somthing doesnt really mean much when you are the one in the hot seat.

I was refering to the fact that the edict of not competing was given by a person with competition experience. In this way, perhaps it could be said that Seagal isn't representing aikido on the big screen? (trying not to break topic too much...sorry guys for doing so)

Does that mean we have a great art? Maybe,,,I believe it is complete, but I have heard of many who would resite stories about what Grandmaster did, and he did this and that, yet they always somehow manage to evade confrontation in full contact.

You mean the people who tell stories of OSensei fighting never engage in fights/competitions? Tohei, I believe, was given the rare request by OSensei to engage a South American Wrestler in competition, so at least some of those who speak of his experiences did in fact compete.

"This is exactly why so many people have so little respect for traditional martial arts in MMA competitions."

The respect of others isn't a thing I care so much about, but it's a valid point that all theory and no testing makes for an empty martial art...in a sense, hollow, at least.
I'll write more when i have more time...take care,
Matt

Taliesin
10-17-2005, 04:38 AM
This is a fascinating point. However we must remember that competition can just as easily lead to a lowering of standards as a raising of them. I also point out that competition also necessarily means setting out to beat your opponent. given the philosophy of Aikido is harmony it's difficult to see how completion would do anything other than detract from an ability to harmoniously deal with attacks .

Nor is one on one completion necessarily a true reflection of ability, 'fighting' or self defense ability also encompasses dealing with armed attackers and multiple attackers or even multiple armed attackers - an ability that does not ever appear to be demonstrated in competition.

So then the question becomes not who can beat who in a one to one fight but who would best deal with, a single unarmed attacker, a single armed attacker, multiple unarmed attackers, multiple armed attackers - and the answers may very well be different.

I don't say competition has no value, but I do say it has limits in the assessment of 'fighting' ability. It also seems strange to accuse those who do not compete 'arrogant' when competitors avoid all the other challenges.

mathewjgano
10-17-2005, 08:05 AM
I am not pointing a finger at any certain person, but trying to remind anyone who may get too full of there art,

This is a good reminder I think. As someone who essentially has only an Aikido experience, I value the opinions of those who regularly practice other styles.

What I meant was "In Shaolin they "were" peacefull true and true, or they lived a life of peace. Buddhist priests, Shaolin C'han. They "were" amongst the most peacefull individuals on the planet, and if one would look closley at a style that is still authentic they may see alot of similarites between Shaolin and Aikido. But as for the sparring matches, it isnt that ALL the matches resulted in 2 months of recovery

I see what you mean about the first part of this and I figured that last part was just an example. My point was that I'd rather never have to rest 2 months or even 2 weeks, if I can help it. The idea behind "no competitions" is that Aikido techniqes can be very dangerous and that really trying your hardest could mean someone will get seriously hurt. I agree one can temper their competition to accomodate this though. Shodokan Aikido does this and in fact, to address the other post, uses tanto training a lot in their conpetitions as I recall...now how to bring Seagal Sensei into this...hmmm... ;)
ok I'll stick to topic from now on...and this time I mean it!
Take care,
Matt

ad_adrian
10-18-2005, 08:52 AM
hmmm i just read through that whole 5 pages...god that took me a long time,
now there r so many issues and discusions in here it would be impossible for me to imput my view in one page, hmmm so i wont go into detail just state some things briefly
1. aikido definatly does work i have seen it and read about it working so many times against all forms, im not saying its the best martial art or anything like that but it definatly works.
2.steven seagal's aikido definatly works! i think his aikido in comparison to others is slightly harsher but everyone has their own aikido and their own style, thats aikido there's plenty of styles, im fustrated as to all you guys can bag him, who are we to judge his aikido and the way he approaches his personal life..whats it got to do with you, you dont even know if half of it is true,

to the one's that are bagging him out (not mentioning names) you obviously are not getting the proper message of aikido and aint following the whole harmony aspect in the right way, i pity you and i do hope that eventually you will discover your self and ur harmony with everything

thomascrtt
08-06-2006, 07:59 AM
I have seen some of his seminar tapes, and his technical looked very good. IMHO, nothing brings more attention to something than those who critize it. Do not worry about Seagal's Aikido, get back to the mat and train your own.

Until again,

Lynn

No one could have said it any better.

shadowedge
08-07-2006, 04:23 AM
my my this is a very old thread....

wonder why it poped up recently... anyway my thoughts on him... I've always been a fan, and I can safely say he is one of the inspirational figures that drove me to take up the art. I've grown up watching Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan et al... but during a time I was choosing which art to take, his movies stood out... Aikido made quite an impression on me becaue of its simplicity... there were no high jumps, no spinning kicks, no wire tricks. just the beauty of the art. True he does improvise due to the fact it is a movie, but it won my heart anyway.

I believe for future generations, there should be another Steven Segal in the movies, so people can become inquisitive (or even aware) about it.

My two cents. :)

DonMagee
08-07-2006, 06:55 AM
When I watched the videos of segals students testing for the black belt (the one where they do the randori where the ukes just tear up nage) I knew that that would be the type of aikido training I would want. Just like that test, every class. The hard physical pressure testing I watched in the clips of that video is one of the reasons I went out and found judo and bjj. My aikido school was much softer and more ki focused. I think I may of stayed longer had their aikido been like his aikido. However, my instructors instructor did not like segals training methods one bit.

Guilty Spark
08-07-2006, 06:23 PM
I'm with Don here. That is the type of Aikido I am interested in and want to practice.
Not sure a good word to describe it (especially without stepping on toes)
More of an alive feeling perhaps? I find it has a military feeling to it.

Tony Hudspith
08-13-2006, 04:02 PM
Hi Norman
I agree with you that the Path Beyond Thought is a good video (after all, I'm in it aint I!!!)
I have trained with Steven Seagal on numerous occassions and have taken ukemi from him too. His Aikido is VERY good and VERY effective!
He is a friendly, sincere person who has brought Aikido to the forefront by his movies. He acts like he does in the movies in real life so I suppose his acting isn't that bad really.
Anyway, we might be coming to your dojo this Monday so watch out!!!!
Tony

jimscape
12-11-2007, 12:53 PM
In my opinion, Hollywood can make an egomaniac out of anybody. It seems Segal had issues with his ego his entire life.

That being said, he did run a dojo for years in Japan and he was a great athlete.

He also appears though to be an aikibully and that's ultimately what turned me off to him and why I wouldn't want him as a sensei.

He has made a fortune making the art of peace look uberviolent all in the name of making a buck.

I'm not sure what I would do in the same situation but I would be in a lot of conflict philosophically.

It seems to me the man is very much out of balance, has no respect for women, and enjoys hurting others while his need to shine is gratified.

This is not aikido from what I understand, it's something else completely. The physical moves might be aikido-ish ( maybe more like a combination of the harder styles or a hybrid of aikibudo.

I believe it's not a good idea to train with a sensei that has too many character flaws. By sandan I would hope that a person would have worked those problems out.

Pierre Kewcharoen
12-11-2007, 01:26 PM
I got nothing wrong with Seagal. I've seen his aikido tapes and to me his aikido is pretty damn good. Awful actor though. Can't say aikido is completely a peaceful art. Ego destroys aikido, even after getting rid of colored belts.

Keith Larman
12-11-2007, 03:00 PM
And the thread rises from the dead... AAAIIIEEEEE!!!!!

Pierre Kewcharoen
12-11-2007, 03:22 PM
And the thread rises from the dead... AAAIIIEEEEE!!!!!

Blame Carl Thomas :D

Shany
12-11-2007, 03:41 PM
some says that steven segal has made Aikido look bad? Why so? he did what actually Ueshiba wanted, to spread it around the globe. Some may think he is too agressive and erroagant.. perhaps i don't know him personally, but on the streets u should be tough and mean and good and fast (if u couldn't avoid it that is and ur being pushed around).

his being an actor made aikido looks less than it supposed to be? didn't bruce lee used kung fu in his movies? does it mean he made kung fu look bad? they both did/do good at what they do, whatver the inner problem them have, this is a different story, but the art stays the same (pretty much :D)

jennifer paige smith
12-11-2007, 04:23 PM
some says that steven segal has made Aikido look bad? Why so? he did what actually Ueshiba wanted, to spread it around the globe. Some may think he is too agressive and erroagant.. perhaps i don't know him personally, but on the streets u should be tough and mean and good and fast (if u couldn't avoid it that is and ur being pushed around).

his being an actor made aikido looks less than it supposed to be? didn't bruce lee used kung fu in his movies? does it mean he made kung fu look bad? they both did/do good at what they do, whatver the inner problem them have, this is a different story, but the art stays the same (pretty much :D)

One thing for sure, aikido is a known word and practice among many people simply because the movies Segal made. On a certain level his movies have given us, as aikidoists, a springboard for conversations about aikido with non-aikidoka even if we would describe it or practice it differently than Segal Sensei.

just a thought

statisticool
12-24-2007, 12:59 AM
I'd say Segal's acting is MUCH better than Bruce Lee's acting, however.

Walter Martindale
12-24-2007, 01:43 AM
Have never had the opportunity to meet or train in the vicinity of Seagal sensei, so purchased Path video.. If "aikikai" were "vanilla", "yoshinkan" were "chocolate", etc., then Seagal's aikido is likely yet another flavour of the same product. Perhaps with a bit of habanero flavour.
Don't know the man, won't judge him.
Walter

mickeygelum
12-24-2007, 12:28 PM
Here's acting at it's best...Oscars for all the ukes..:yuck: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv4f6xH-OwM

Misogi-no-Gyo
12-26-2007, 01:17 AM
In my opinion, Hollywood can make an egomaniac out of anybody. It seems Segal had issues with his ego his entire life.

That being said, he did run a dojo for years in Japan and he was a great athlete.

He also appears though to be an aikibully and that's ultimately what turned me off to him and why I wouldn't want him as a sensei.

He has made a fortune making the art of peace look uberviolent all in the name of making a buck.

I'm not sure what I would do in the same situation but I would be in a lot of conflict philosophically.

It seems to me the man is very much out of balance, has no respect for women, and enjoys hurting others while his need to shine is gratified.

This is not aikido from what I understand, it's something else completely. The physical moves might be aikido-ish ( maybe more like a combination of the harder styles or a hybrid of aikibudo.

I believe it's not a good idea to train with a sensei that has too many character flaws. By sandan I would hope that a person would have worked those problems out.

One would think that with a name like "Sherlock" one would base his statements on what he knows to be the truth rather than regurgitating nonsense he read in some Follywood magazine. You speak as if you know the man. From what you have posted here, percentages are high that you do not know him, or even know anyone that knows him at any great depth. Spouting opinions being easy, I'll spout one here - It is never a good idea to comment in such a manner, in a public forum, while attaching your name for all, including your Sensei to see.. I do not know who your Sensei is, but had you had the chance to study with Seagal Sensei even just a little I can confidently say that you would have grown exponentially from the process. It is quite obvious that up until now you most certainly have not trained with Seagal Sensei, Matsuoka Sensei or any of the senior students from the old Los Angeles Tenshin Dojo

Your post speaks of conflict, character flaws and balance. It does so as if you believe that your Sensei has mastered these things. I can assure you that he is as human and as flawed as the rest of us. You speak of Aiki as if you have some deep understanding of this matter. Then you already know that there is no conflict where there is Aiki. Creating conflict with posts such as yours in this thread would an extreme lack of Aiki. As a beginner perhaps it would be prudent to worry more about your personal openings than those of someone about as far removed from your daily life as one could possibly be.

I let most of these internet condemnations of Seagal Sensei go without feeling any need to clue in the clueless. However, you are a beginner so you do not know any better. Your profile indicates that you train in Manhattan, so you are so very close. It is the holidays, after all and I am feeling overly generous. I will contact you privately later on this week so that whenever you feel like stopping by my dojo we can talk all about Aiki, conflict, balance or whatever else might come to mind. While you may not have an opportunity to answer any questions you might have by training with Seagal Sensei directly, I will try my best to relieve you of whatever negativity you might have with regards to one of my teachers so that you can get back to the task at hand, that being focusing on seeking O-Sensei's Aikido. I am not interested in starting any sort of flame war here on Aikiweb or anywhere else for that matter. If you have anything you would like to say about my post and are not interested in taking me up on my invitation, please write me privately if you feel so inclined.

Peace to all throughout the holidays and beyond.

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