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Dan Richards
11-30-2014, 06:34 PM
I'm starting a series of videos on why wrist locks don't work, and to give some insight into some of the mechanics needed for effective application.

Feedback appreciated on this video, and as I go along introducing other ones.

Dan Richards
11-30-2014, 08:45 PM
Why Wrist Locks Don't Work (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP43OEU-znw&feature=youtu.be)

MRoh
12-01-2014, 02:42 AM
The basic functionality and correct positions and angles for applying kote-geashi, you see in this video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DOhGmysZyo

PeterR
12-01-2014, 03:20 AM
Do you consider Kote-geashi a wrist lock?

sakumeikan
12-01-2014, 06:39 AM
Do you consider Kote-geashi a wrist lock?
Dear Peter,
My answer is no. Kote Gaeshi is a throw which utilises the wrist to achieve the object is to throw the person. Cheers, Joe.

Erick Mead
12-01-2014, 08:59 AM
Dear Peter,
My answer is no. Kote Gaeshi is a throw which utilises the wrist to achieve the object is to throw the person. Cheers, Joe.
I'll quibble a bit.

1. Kotegaeshi is neither a lock -- nor a throw
2. Kotegaeshi is a CONTROL, whose purpose is to maintain a certain connection
3. What throws --- THROUGH that connection -- is EITHER tai-sabaki OR Aiki
4. Tai sabaki makes a throw by carrying uke's body dynamically OUTSIDE his zone of support, causing his support structure to alter irrevocably
5. Aiki makes a throw by irrevocably altering the internal support structure of uke's body while still WITHIN his (presumed) zone of support, causing his zone of support to contract and disappear

PeterR
12-01-2014, 10:12 AM
Dear Peter,
My answer is no. Kote Gaeshi is a throw which utilises the wrist to achieve the object is to throw the person. Cheers, Joe.

I tend to be quite literal - "Small hand return/fold"

There are pins/locks that use it but it is more than likely, as you say, used in a throw. I just have trouble classing it as a wrist lock since it certainly does not do that.

Cliff Judge
12-01-2014, 11:44 AM
I always thought the kote was actually the forearm, from the elbow forward.

PeterR
12-01-2014, 12:03 PM
I always thought the kote was actually the forearm, from the elbow forward.

It is, including the hand. In Kendo the kote is the glove that covers the area.

Pretty hard to just fold the forearm.

ChrisHein
12-01-2014, 01:14 PM
I wouldn't chew gum on my video's if I were you.

Cliff Judge
12-01-2014, 01:44 PM
It is, including the hand. In Kendo the kote is the glove that covers the area.

Pretty hard to just fold the forearm.

No, but you can return it.

RonRagusa
12-01-2014, 01:49 PM
Both Kote Gaeshi and Shiho Nage bridge the gap separating immobilization techniques and projection techniques. They don't fall into either category exclusively.

Ron

jdostie
12-01-2014, 07:08 PM
No, but you can return it.

You can also extend it, and affect structure that way. Still Kotegaishi.

Cliff Judge
12-01-2014, 07:13 PM
No, but you can return it.

Ha! I hadn't even watched the video with sound yet, and here I was, making Richard's arguments for him.

I pretty much agree with this clip in general.

You can also extend it, and affect structure that way. Still Kotegaishi.

gaeshi = return,
kotegaeshi = forearm return

jdostie
12-01-2014, 07:34 PM
Ha! I hadn't even watched the video with sound yet, and here I was, making Richard's arguments for him.

I pretty much agree with this clip in general.

gaeshi = return,
kotegaeshi = forearm return

Gaishi can also mean reversal - kote gaeshi - wrist reversal, no?

Now if you extend the arm out and turn the palm/wrist over in the direction it does not like to turn, is that not kote-gaishi? If not, what would you call it?

PeterR
12-02-2014, 02:04 AM
Forearm - does not include the wrist or any part of the hand. Kote does. Just saying.

MRoh
12-02-2014, 07:15 AM
Now if you extend the arm out and turn the palm/wrist over in the direction it does not like to turn, is that not kote-gaishi? If not, what would you call it?

What means gaishi?

Cliff Judge
12-02-2014, 07:49 AM
Gaishi can also mean reversal - kote gaeshi - wrist reversal, no?

Now if you extend the arm out and turn the palm/wrist over in the direction it does not like to turn, is that not kote-gaishi? If not, what would you call it?

The term I am familiar with for wrist is te kubi - neck of the hand.

But I generally agree with what you are saying - the overall movement of energy in a good kotegaeshi (which is to say....I have discovered it works best in general when I do it this way) comes up from uke's back foot, into nage's hara, and then returns back to uke at some point where they aren't strong. I think what you are describing is basically that. :)

Demetrio Cereijo
12-02-2014, 09:00 AM
Interesting.

Is there going to be a clip demoing with an alive, resisting, non compliant partner not half nage's size and a bit athletic?

NagaBaba
12-02-2014, 09:12 AM
I'm starting a series of videos on why wrist locks don't work.
It is very simple - because you don't know how to do it correctly. That is why you need some kind of artificial patches trying to fill up the missing part of knowledge.

Cliff Judge
12-02-2014, 09:53 AM
It is very simple - because you don't know how to do it correctly. That is why you need some kind of artificial patches trying to fill up the missing part of knowledge.

Did you watch the video? Is there something you disagree with?

PeterR
12-02-2014, 09:59 AM
The term I am familiar with for wrist is te kubi - neck of the hand.

But I generally agree with what you are saying - the overall movement of energy in a good kotegaeshi (which is to say....I have discovered it works best in general when I do it this way) comes up from uke's back foot, into nage's hara, and then returns back to uke at some point where they aren't strong. I think what you are describing is basically that. :)

It is a tekubi waza - certainly.

NagaBaba
12-02-2014, 10:58 AM
Did you watch the video? Is there something you disagree with?

Sure thing, I watched video. In static situation (already red flag), in front of attacker (zero understanding of martial interaction) he is trying to twist a wrist (zero understanding of internal structure) on unbalanced body (zero understanding of correct biomechanics) .

Keith Larman
12-02-2014, 11:11 AM
Please tell me you guys aren't making arguments about how to do 'kotegaeshi' based on translating the label... Good lord...

Cliff Judge
12-02-2014, 11:35 AM
Sure thing, I watched video. In static situation (already red flag), in front of attacker (zero understanding of martial interaction) he is trying to twist a wrist (zero understanding of internal structure) on unbalanced body (zero understanding of correct biomechanics) .

I don't really think you watched the video. What specific points did Mr. Richards make that you disagree with, about why some wrist locks don't work?

lbb
12-02-2014, 11:38 AM
What means gaishi?

Please tell me that you're not quibbling about the correct romanization of a word written in a different character set. Please. :rolleyes:

Demetrio Cereijo
12-02-2014, 11:41 AM
Please tell me you guys aren't making arguments about how to do 'kotegaeshi' based on translating the label... Good lord...
Well, this is an Aikido forum.

Hilary
12-02-2014, 01:46 PM
But not just any Aikido forum, it is Aikiweb. Now with more hair splitting and rhetorical questions!

PeterR
12-02-2014, 02:04 PM
Please tell me you guys aren't making arguments about how to do 'kotegaeshi' based on translating the label... Good lord...

I certainly am - in this case it clarifies exactly what is happening and what can not happen.

jdostie
12-02-2014, 04:15 PM
Please tell me you guys aren't making arguments about how to do 'kotegaeshi' based on translating the label... Good lord...

No, just a vocabulary discussion.

Discussion about the video is another thing.

lbb
12-02-2014, 07:32 PM
I certainly am - in this case it clarifies exactly what is happening and what can not happen.

Surely the name of any technique is descriptive (and usually imperfectly so) rather than pre/proscriptive, no?

Dan Richards
12-02-2014, 09:58 PM
The basic functionality and correct positions and angles for applying kote-geashi, you see in this video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DOhGmysZyo

That's his interpretation, which works for him. From my POV, and my interpretation, he's moving way too close into shihonage, which is obviously related on the other end of the spectrum of the movements from kotegaeshi. And I like and agree with what Ron said,
Both Kote Gaeshi and Shiho Nage bridge the gap separating immobilization techniques and projection techniques. They don't fall into either category exclusively.

To my eye, what he's actually doing that's very cool, is making kotegaeshi into the most extreme extension. Like making those big capital letters, taking up two lines on the paper, when children start to learn to write their A, B, Cs

Yamada teaches in a similar way. Maybe not with as wide of a brush stroke, but he's very into big, wide circles as a learning tool.

OTOH, the problem I see with those approaches is that they're not very dynamic. Although, H Saito does vary his rhythm and timing more than I've seen Yamada and most other teachers do. For the most overall dynamic, Endo probably gets my vote as someone who can go from a big, slow movement, like a little kid making his first big A, to someone who's grown up, come of age, and quickly signs their signature with a flurry.

And you've got to hand it to Sunadomari. He just sort of did that doctor's scribble writing, and left everyone to squint and try and figure it out.

Now that I think about it, I think Ueshiba was really into fingerpainting.

Dan Richards
12-02-2014, 10:31 PM
I'll quibble a bit.

1. Kotegaeshi is neither a lock -- nor a throw
2. Kotegaeshi is a CONTROL, whose purpose is to maintain a certain connection
3. What throws --- THROUGH that connection -- is EITHER tai-sabaki OR Aiki
4. Tai sabaki makes a throw by carrying uke's body dynamically OUTSIDE his zone of support, causing his support structure to alter irrevocably
5. Aiki makes a throw by irrevocably altering the internal support structure of uke's body while still WITHIN his (presumed) zone of support, causing his zone of support to contract and disappear

What Eric said. And I specifically worked with, demonstrated, and verbally said numbers 1 and 2 in the video. I eluded to parts of 3 and 4 a bit. I'll get more into 4 and 5 later.

Anyone who's interested in the connection and relationship between getting from 1-5 and back again should study - not just read through Hakaru Mori's Aiki of Tenouchi / The Golden Key (http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/hakaru-mori-aiki-tenouchi/). I think it's one of the most important writings available to anyone who's really serious about the aiki and jujutsu love hate relationship with each other, and how to approach finding a way to allow them to ultimately emulsify.

Aiki and jujutsu are literally like oil and water. And they don't like each other. The trick is in the process of emulsion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsion).

Dan Richards
12-02-2014, 11:00 PM
Interesting.

Is there going to be a clip demoing with an alive, resisting, non compliant partner not half nage's size and a bit athletic?

Where'd you get this "alive" business? Watching Matt Thompson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness_%28martial_arts%29) videos. He's the one who started that nonsense, and too much of the MMA crowd has bought into it. And, actually, even according to the definition of "aliveness" — "spontaneous, non-scripted, and dynamic" — we did exactly that.

The video was totally unrehearsed. We hadn't even made a video before. I'd just gotten the camera. We weren't even 100% sure it was actually in record mode.

The other guy in the video and I don't even train the same arts. We're not doing any collusive aikido arrangement. He's all CMA and FMA, and I'm all JMA with a bit of RMA. But we find lots of common ground. And I hope what we're doing - in a more informal, style-independent exploration - can be an aid to people regardless of what they train.

And the guy in the video with me is a pretty serious WC, JKD, and Kali guy. He might not look like much, but he can be up on your ass like a psycho cat in heat after you tried to steal her babies. If you notice in the video, he even has some pretty serious claws.

And we did use resistance. And there are many examples in the video of me working with resistance from him and what I was doing not working.

But for really dynamic crazy stuff where we're really going at it. Yeh, we do that, and we'll make some videos of it. But first things first.

Actually, what prompted me to even make a video was a reply on reddit to a video that was posted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz4bo6jsbIE&lc=z13jzvsgzkqcyd5ie04cftvi2peeilb4ijc) in which Sean Ching demonstrates a lack of knowledge about what he's talking about. And said, "In WC and JKD we're always worried about the other hand, and that's why we don't like to use the wrist locks, per se."

And that's where I even got the title of the video, and for a whole series I'm going to do — sans gum and maybe beefing up the costumes and production a bit. I want to clearly show WHY wristlocks don't work, instead of just showing, oh here's how's it done. Because it's more about really understanding why something does and doesn't work. I see too many videos that just get into "here's the right way." I think it's even more important to show the wrong way.

There's way too much show and tell in videos on martial arts. And not too much on real investigation, pros and cons, and really showing what doesn't work and why it doesn't work. Because all too often people get crap instruction or play around with someone who's not that experienced, and then discount the effectiveness of these various tools and methods of understanding how to use them.

Dan Richards
12-02-2014, 11:10 PM
Ha! I hadn't even watched the video with sound yet, and here I was, making Richard's arguments for him.

I pretty much agree with this clip in general.

Thanks, Cliff. At this point it was just an informal expression. In the same manner we'd jump on a forum and discuss something. I'd like to see more people turning on the camera and seeing video as a tool that can be just as comfortable and informal as sitting down to type a post or write an article.

If the content is there, the content is there.

That's why I was just hanging out, chewing gum, fiddling with a new camera, and said to my folks after training, "Hey, let's make something quick as a reply to that Wing Chun knucklehead who posted a video about wristlocks and why he doesn't like using them."

Hence, the title, WHY wristlocks don't work.

MRoh
12-03-2014, 12:17 AM
Please tell me that you're not quibbling about the correct romanization of a word written in a different character set. Please. :rolleyes:

No, but if you speak it like this, it's wrong.

MRoh
12-03-2014, 12:22 AM
That's his interpretation, which works for him.

It works, because he stands in a correct position, uses the correct angles and applies kuzushi.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-03-2014, 04:56 AM
Where'd you get this "alive" business? Watching Matt Thompson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliveness_%28martial_arts%29) videos. He's the one who started that nonsense, and too much of the MMA crowd has bought into it. And, actually, even according to the definition of "aliveness" — "spontaneous, non-scripted, and dynamic" — we did exactly that.

The video was totally unrehearsed. We hadn't even made a video before. I'd just gotten the camera. We weren't even 100% sure it was actually in record mode.

The other guy in the video and I don't even train the same arts. We're not doing any collusive aikido arrangement. He's all CMA and FMA, and I'm all JMA with a bit of RMA. But we find lots of common ground. And I hope what we're doing - in a more informal, style-independent exploration - can be an aid to people regardless of what they train.

And the guy in the video with me is a pretty serious WC, JKD, and Kali guy. He might not look like much, but he can be up on your ass like a psycho cat in heat after you tried to steal her babies. If you notice in the video, he even has some pretty serious claws.

And we did use resistance. And there are many examples in the video of me working with resistance from him and what I was doing not working.

But for really dynamic crazy stuff where we're really going at it. Yeh, we do that, and we'll make some videos of it. But first things first.

Actually, what prompted me to even make a video was a reply on reddit to a video that was posted (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz4bo6jsbIE&lc=z13jzvsgzkqcyd5ie04cftvi2peeilb4ijc) in which Sean Ching demonstrates a lack of knowledge about what he's talking about. And said, "In WC and JKD we're always worried about the other hand, and that's why we don't like to use the wrist locks, per se."

And that's where I even got the title of the video, and for a whole series I'm going to do — sans gum and maybe beefing up the costumes and production a bit. I want to clearly show WHY wristlocks don't work, instead of just showing, oh here's how's it done. Because it's more about really understanding why something does and doesn't work. I see too many videos that just get into "here's the right way." I think it's even more important to show the wrong way.

There's way too much show and tell in videos on martial arts. And not too much on real investigation, pros and cons, and really showing what doesn't work and why it doesn't work. Because all too often people get crap instruction or play around with someone who's not that experienced, and then discount the effectiveness of these various tools and methods of understanding how to use them.

A simple yes/no answer to the question I posed woud have sufficed.

Thanks anyway.

Cliff Judge
12-03-2014, 08:10 AM
People really ought to watch the video before pooping on it. Hint: he is demonstrating common mistakes he has seen when applying kotegaeshi. He is not claiming that kotegaeshi does not work.

jdostie
12-03-2014, 12:14 PM
Surely the name of any technique is descriptive (and usually imperfectly so) rather than pre/proscriptive, no?

Absolutely correct. Sometimes the name is only nominally descriptive.

jdostie
12-03-2014, 12:24 PM
No, but if you speak it like this, it's wrong.

Please excuse my spelling error.

Keith Larman
12-03-2014, 03:28 PM
Surely the name of any technique is descriptive (and usually imperfectly so) rather than pre/proscriptive, no?

What Mary said...

Keith Larman
12-03-2014, 03:48 PM
I certainly am - in this case it clarifies exactly what is happening and what can not happen.

Well, as others have pointed out, the labels used in, well, everything, are usually only somewhat descriptive at best in many cases. And I'm not really being critical of all comments here. I was just thinking of other techniques that involve things like the neck of a cormorant. It's not like it only works on seabirds... Nor does knowing the translation help all that much with the details of how to do the techniques. Hell, I'm working no a kessho finish on a sword right now but I can guarantee you that no lipstick is being used...

Descriptive of some aspect of a technique. How that technique is actually done varies and there's usually an entire larger context of application within which many choices involved make more sense.

Nonetheless, carry on... It's all good.

K

kewms
12-04-2014, 01:27 PM
When I teach kotegaeshi, I sometimes have students try it with just the forearm, without touching the hand at all. This forces them to pay more attention to angles, connection to center, and so forth, rather than just hammering on the wrist. And inevitably, when a kotegaeshi doesn't work, it turns out that the person was spending a lot of effort on the wrist, without paying enough attention to geometry, connection, and so on.

So while the name is descriptive as far as it goes, I think it's also misleading, and paying too much attention to the exact translation is probably a distraction from the real goal: developing a kotegaeshi that works.

Katherine

Cliff Judge
12-04-2014, 01:36 PM
When I teach kotegaeshi, I sometimes have students try it with just the forearm, without touching the hand at all. This forces them to pay more attention to angles, connection to center, and so forth, rather than just hammering on the wrist. And inevitably, when a kotegaeshi doesn't work, it turns out that the person was spending a lot of effort on the wrist, without paying enough attention to geometry, connection, and so on.

So while the name is descriptive as far as it goes, I think it's also misleading, and paying too much attention to the exact translation is probably a distraction from the real goal: developing a kotegaeshi that works.

Katherine

I dunno, it sounds to me like you are showing students that the point of the technique is to "return the forearm." :)

kewms
12-04-2014, 01:58 PM
I dunno, it sounds to me like you are showing students that the point of the technique is to "return the forearm." :)

Maybe. Except when I *tell* them that, their technique doesn't work. It seems that "returning the forearm" needs to be a side effect, not a goal. Hmmm...

Katherine

Cliff Judge
12-04-2014, 02:24 PM
Maybe. Except when I *tell* them that, their technique doesn't work. It seems that "returning the forearm" needs to be a side effect, not a goal. Hmmm...

Katherine

You gotta show them where to return it to! "Where the sun don't shine" might be a good place to start...:D

Erick Mead
12-04-2014, 03:23 PM
Aiki and jujutsu are literally like oil and water. And they don't like each other. The trick is in the process of emulsion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsion).To be a bit more fair to jujitsu, IMO Aiki CAN occur transiently (and not necessarily), in the course of a dynamic jujitsu waza, when the stretch and spiral align in the movement and aiki-age or aiki sage (buckling) happens. The waza per se does not require aiki to function, but it CAN happen when applying it.

It is my belief that these peeks and glimpses through the "magic" door in the course of training are what the koryu schools noticed, then sought and refined in seeking out Aiki as an applied art in and of itself. Many various exercises aid this training (traditional, and more novel ones, flowing from the present revival of intense interest) -- things like furibo swinging, aiki taiso or kokyu ho undo, etc. There are lots of other "paths" of movement or ways in which to do non-aiki related movements in an given undo and may SEEM like it -- but just doing something that merely LOOKS like that training -- is not actually training what the undo is meant to train, at all. The swinging, winding/unwinding exercises have a critical and narrow path to build up the right things.

Chicken and egg problem, though -- they train it IF you at least vaguely recognize what is sought to be trained and keep trying stay closer and closer to that "path" in those exercises -- and in this regard the IHTBF crowd are definitely on the money. I believe, though, - and have felt-- that there are lots more out there who have felt it enough to recognize it and seek it in their training, at least implicitly, than the strict IHTBF crowd generally give credit. What the community as a whole lacks is an adequate PHYSICAL theory of aiki and a physically consistent vocabulary to nail down its elements (and, conversely, identify and eliminate what isn't at all involved). That deficit, at least, need not continue.

Carsten Möllering
12-05-2014, 01:50 AM
I dunno, it sounds to me like you are showing students that the point of the technique is to "return the forearm." :)We differentiate between kote gaeshi and ude gaeshi. They are different techiques in our curriculum.

Nevertheless we also use doing kote gaeshi "with just the forearm, without touching the hand at all" as learning tool. We also have a form of kote gaeshi without bending the wrist of uke. Or with applying his closed fist. Also we do kote gaeshi affecting uke's center via his wrist or his ellbow (which is different from ude gaeshi) or his shoulder (which is different from shiho nage). We have a form of kote gaeshi in which ukes hand gos up to the level of his head just like in shiho nage. And some other interesting things ...
All that is named kote gaeshi and all that has similarities that distinguish all those forms of kote gaeshi from ude gaeshi and from shiho nage.

Bernd Lehnen
12-05-2014, 07:26 AM
Interesting.

Is there going to be a clip demoing with an alive, resisting, non compliant partner not half nage's size and a bit athletic?

My take on it is, that kotegaeshi isn't a technique to throw down or to immobilize or anything like that.
It includes a principle and is just another way to exercise, smoothen out and strengthen the body and rather show how it can move and where the limits are.
Actually, unlike in judo or wrestling, I have yet to see the kihon waza in the aikido curriculum, that would really hold down or immobilize a decent noncompliant fighter, per se. And you get trained to get thrown.
Of course, you can be injured.
But in my experience, most of, if not all of the injuries happened to complying partners, when nage lost control over himself.

Best,
Bernd

sorokod
12-05-2014, 08:55 AM
More good ways of doing kote gaeshi without chewing gum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32ixTwP0Sa4

Cliff Judge
12-05-2014, 09:41 AM
My take on it is, that kotegaeshi isn't a technique to throw down or to immobilize or anything like that.
It includes a principle and is just another way to exercise, smoothen out and strengthen the body and rather show how it can move and where the limits are.
Actually, unlike in judo or wrestling, I have yet to see the kihon waza in the aikido curriculum, that would really hold down or immobilize a decent noncompliant fighter, per se. And you get trained to get thrown.
Of course, you can be injured.
But in my experience, most of, if not all of the injuries happened to complying partners, when nage lost control over himself.

Best,
Bernd

I dunno. Cognate techniques exist all over the place in koryu jujutsu, and I've seen them in FMA as well. I don't think its just a conditioning or ukemi training type technique.

jdostie
12-05-2014, 05:56 PM
I dunno. Cognate techniques exist all over the place in koryu jujutsu, and I've seen them in FMA as well. I don't think its just a conditioning or ukemi training type technique.

Nope, finding the limits of the bodies movements and joints are the beginning. It's a foundation, not a destination. Something I am only now beginning to see.