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DH
06-29-2012, 10:16 PM
I remember Dave Lowry once writing that he has never trained with a Menkyo or high level teacher who did not make at least one error during training. I would agree with that assessment.

Here is the old man himself falling down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LELJJkFIxk)
Of course it doesn't mean anything, but someone brought it up on my forum. Mentioning that they hadn't seen it before. I hadn't seen it before either.
Dan

Settokuryoku
06-29-2012, 11:52 PM
I won't disagree with Mr. Lowry's observation. I don't think anyone isn't susceptible to failure no matter who they are. In context, look at MMA. It is ludicrous to think there isn't going to be strikes exchanged, opportunities missed, miscalculations or other errors made by both winner and loser. A truth that says errors will be made no matter who it is, when engaged in martial arts. The "old man" falling down, much less at his age still performing technique well, let's us see what his is doing is real. He is real. His demonstration is real. It's our exceptions too high when we don't all margin of error, demanding the impossible standard of perfections. Here O'Sensei is publicly demonstrating. He isn't instructing a class. Two different venues. Errors will be made by both sides of the conflict, the winner is the one who makes the less significant and minimal errors. Mr. Harden pointing out O'Sensei's stumble, something evidently over-looked, indicates the wonderful no matter how good you are the fact remains everyone makes mistake. How quickly, often and how you recover from mistake is key. In a fighting situation add on how you exploit your opponent's mistakes. I have always enjoyed the work of Mr. Lowery, and he is spot on here IMHO. Martial artists, fighters and teachers are human, we are fallible.

David Orange
06-30-2012, 12:24 AM
I won't disagree with Mr. Lowry's observation. I don't think anyone isn't susceptible to failure no matter who they are.

There's an old Japanese saying, "Saru mo ki kara ochiru": "even monkeys fall from trees."

I think it's a general saying, along with "Inu mo arukeba bo ni ataru," meaning "even dogs run into sticks when they go out walking."

So monkeys are great climbers but they still fall from trees and dogs are masters of the natural environment, but they still run right into a stick from time to time.

That certainly was a great video of aikido, though. That's real believable power. That guy led bunches of really powerful people and they all remembered him as a special master.

Not only does he stumble once in this clip, but I noticed that he was slightly struck on the back when he did the "aiki drop" in front of the shomen uchi attack. And I noticed for the first time a few instances where he seems to be very conscious of how he appears before the camera. That's interesting.

But I also notice many places where he shows that old daito ryu thing that we never see in modern aikido: the zanshin moment directly after a throw, with one arm up and one arm down, a posture assumed separately after the throw and not resulting from the action of the throw. And it's not in preparation to follow up with a downward strike, either, because the opponent has been thrown ten feet away.

We might say that it is preparation for the next technique, and I see now that it is just that. But in modern aikido, we don't see that kamae in nage very much as the attack comes, do we? How is that posture a preparation for the next technique? It was clearly a practice for O Sensei. Why is it not for the generations that followed?

If we see that posture at all in these later days, it's usually a set-up for a downward strike and it's usually done only with the upper arm and only for an instant. It seems that O Sensei's use of that posture is generally understood to "show the potential" of following up with a downward strike, so to show "understanding," people do the downward strike.

Even Morihei does it more quickly at some times and holds it longer at others, but it is clearly the raising of the arm that is important and the intent is not for striking down. So what is he doing with that raised arm?

And with that in mind, what is happening with the down arm? What is he dong that for? What are his feet doing? What are his head and eyes doing? How is he breathing? You can see all that in many moments when he assumes that posture in this clip. Very interesting and well worth repeated watching.

Best wishes.

{{And thanks, Dan!}}

David

Dave Gallagher
06-30-2012, 08:13 AM
Having trained with Dave Lowry off and on for over 30 years in several arts I can tell you that he often tells a student who makes a mistake that no one is perfect and mistakes are part of the learning process.
In fact Lowry is Chairman of the Japanese Festival here in St.Louis. He was demonstraiting Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo with a Menkyo Kaiden holder Phil Relnick Last September. The jo came loose from Relnicks Sensei's left hand. Relnick Sensei laughed and commented about St.Louis outdoor demo's and being coated with sun screen that makes the jo try to go it's own way.
Even the Master is human.
When Lowry was teaching at the Shobukan Aikido Dojo he was showing us the next technique and in the middle of it he stops and smiles and says "but don't do it like this". He then adjusted his hand and said " this is the way it should be done". We all laughed at that one.
Even Dave Lowry is not perfect. Today he only teaches Jodo and sword but gives seminars in other budo and Koryu.
I miss those old days..

graham christian
06-30-2012, 12:55 PM
I think he tripped on his Hakama.

David. I would say there is a remarkable resemblance to how he returns to posture with arms as you say (sometimes) and tenshinage.

Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.

Peace.G.

Janet Rosen
06-30-2012, 01:22 PM
When I was learning to sew, I was never as relieved as when my incredibly stylish and masterful teacher came in one morning and ruefully admitted she'd sewn a sleeve in inside out and backwards the evening before...

David Orange
06-30-2012, 01:31 PM
I think he tripped on his Hakama.

That's what I thought.

David. I would say there is a remarkable resemblance to how he returns to posture with arms as you say (sometimes) and tenshinage.

"Resemblance," yes. But since there is usually no one near at the moment he takes that posture, the ukes having just flown some distance away, why would he assume the posture of tenchinage?

Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.

How so?

Best.

David

Hellis
06-30-2012, 01:45 PM
I think he tripped on his Hakama.

Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.

.

Graham

Can you explain the above for a simple basics guy such as me :confused:

Henry Ellis
Co-author of `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

graham christian
06-30-2012, 01:59 PM
That's what I thought.

"Resemblance," yes. But since there is usually no one near at the moment he takes that posture, the ukes having just flown some distance away, why would he assume the posture of tenchinage?

How so?

Best.

David

Well tenshinage is a technique. I used to be taught different explanations as to what to do depending on how good I got at it. Basically from leading ki down and up, in two directions, form centre. Then onto taking into account centre line. Then how it's taking the mind up and down ie: splitting the mind etc. Eventually it became opening up. Opening up the opponent through being willing to open up yourself. This led to more reality on operating from hara.

From hara you feel the yin and yang, the taking in infinitely and the expansion out.

Now sitting comfortanly and letting the body move with it your arms and hands may go out sideways as if welcoming the universe. However I find when I am focused foreward yet returning to hara the the arms do as you describe. The feeling is very similar if not the same as tenshinage. Thus I could say tenshinage is returning to basic posture or say it in some profound way.

That's my take on it.

Now if you want to see me doing it, which I find myself doing to different degrees and only more pronounced depending on the circumstances you can watch a video of mine. Not saying anything to do with anything else just that I tend to do it or similar to it naturally at times. (video: spirit of loving protection 2, from 2:35 onwards)

Peace.G.

Janet Rosen
06-30-2012, 07:45 PM
David. I would say there is a remarkable resemblance to how he returns to posture with arms as you say (sometimes) and tenshinage.
Thus I would say it's a return to hara and 'the floating bridge' between heaven and earth.


My teacher, the late Gayle Fillman, often ended throws in this position and while during the time I trained w/ her she never specifically instructed us to do so for that or any other reason, I know that the idea of the spiral and balance between heaven and earth was important to her.

graham christian
06-30-2012, 10:06 PM
My teacher, the late Gayle Fillman, often ended throws in this position and while during the time I trained w/ her she never specifically instructed us to do so for that or any other reason, I know that the idea of the spiral and balance between heaven and earth was important to her.

Interesting. I have never told or mentioned that anyone else should do it. In fact I never even put any significance on myself doing it. Only David mentioning it like he did above made me wonder if I had seen anyone else do it.

Peace.G.

DH
07-01-2012, 09:07 AM
Well tenshinage is a technique. I used to be taught different explanations as to what to do depending on how good I got at it. Basically from leading ki down and up, in two directions, form centre. Then onto taking into account centre line. Then how it's taking the mind up and down ie: splitting the mind etc. Eventually it became opening up. Opening up the opponent through being willing to open up yourself. This led to more reality on operating from hara.

From hara you feel the yin and yang, the taking in infinitely and the expansion out.

Now sitting comfortanly and letting the body move with it your arms and hands may go out sideways as if welcoming the universe. However I find when I am focused foreward yet returning to hara the the arms do as you describe. The feeling is very similar if not the same as tenshinage. Thus I could say tenshinage is returning to basic posture or say it in some profound way.

That's my take on it.

Now if you want to see me doing it, which I find myself doing to different degrees and only more pronounced depending on the circumstances you can watch a video of mine. Not saying anything to do with anything else just that I tend to do it or similar to it naturally at times. (video: spirit of loving protection 2, from 2:35 onwards)

Peace.G.
Graham moving (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViVKk7hc5To)
Again you use your own video as evidence to support your theories.
I have never seen you move in accordance with the the things you say you can do, nor have you demonstrated anything on film that is cogent with your writing. No one who is actually expressing in/yo would move the way you do. In fact their structure would not allow them to move the way you move. It is almost impossible to understand what In/Yo is, and moving from center as you yourself claim to know and do...and then move the way you do. I would have to completely take my structure apart in order to move and respond like you.

I never expected you to wade in with yet another reference of how you move like Ueshiba!! :rolleyes:
Comparing yourself to Ueshiba, particularly in regards to this aspect of his training and what it really means is strikingly divergent from any real understanding of what Ueshiba is doing and demonstrating.
Oh well.
Dan

DH
07-01-2012, 09:28 AM
In accordance with Juns request; it might be easier to not to talk about the people behind the posts if you stopped referring to videos of yourself and comparing your movements to the discussions we are having about Ueshiba. ;)
Dan

graham christian
07-01-2012, 10:38 AM
Graham moving (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViVKk7hc5To)
Again you use your own video as evidence to support your theories.
I have never seen you move in accordance with the the things you say you can do, nor have you demonstrated anything on film that is cogent with your writing. No one who is actually expressing in/yo would move the way you do. In fact their structure would not allow them to move the way you move. It is almost impossible to understand what In/Yo is, and moving from center as you yourself claim to know and do...and then move the way you do. I would have to completely take my structure apart in order to move and respond like you.

I never expected you to wade in with yet another reference of how you move like Ueshiba!! :rolleyes:
Comparing yourself to Ueshiba, particularly in regards to this aspect of his training and what it really means is strikingly divergent from any real understanding of what Ueshiba is doing and demonstrating.
Oh well.
Dan

The question was specific. The answer was specific. I do, or rather find myself doing, that specific thing asked about.

It happens in a thing called Aikido when I do it. It's not an I/P thing by the looks of it according to you. I'm glad it isn't.

It's actually to do with the sword as well.

Peace.G.

DH
07-01-2012, 11:15 AM
The question was specific. The answer was specific. I do, or rather find myself doing, that specific thing asked about.

It happens in a thing called Aikido when I do it. It's not an I/P thing by the looks of it according to you. I'm glad it isn't.

It's actually to do with the sword as well.

Peace.G.
I do
I do
I do
Talk about UESHIBA!!!
and not you
That way ...we.... don't continually talk about the.... people..... behind the posts.

Good grief man, is any of this sinking in?
Dan

graham christian
07-01-2012, 11:29 AM
I do
I do
I do
Talk about UESHIBA!!!
and not you
That way ...we.... don't continually talk about the.... people..... behind the posts.

Good grief man, is any of this sinking in?
Dan

Dan. Obviously the context is not sinking in for you my friend. Post 5 was about Ueshiba. Then I'm asked how I come to that conclusion.

Through my own experience is the answer. Now, I can't use you as an example can I. I can't think of anyone else doing it off hand.

Now, Janet remebers someone who did it too.

It's called discussing a point raised by the posted video. I actually found that point interesting as I've never really put any emphasis on it.

I must admit I haven't seen anyone do the little hop though. Now that was bouyant!

Peace.G.

Stephen Nichol
07-01-2012, 10:12 PM
... I tripped on a Hakama once... :uch:

Yeah, I am pretty sure that does not mean I am 'doing it like Ueshiba' either though... ;)

:D

DH
07-01-2012, 11:17 PM
... I tripped on a Hakama once... :uch:
Yeah, I am pretty sure that does not mean I am 'doing it like Ueshiba' either though... ;)
:D
+1
There is no tighter trap....then self deceit. Nothing more final than self-delusion. It cannot be helped.
Arguing as the true vision, they are ones who do not see, and will never know.
Dan

phitruong
07-02-2012, 07:02 AM
... I tripped on a Hakama once... :uch:

Yeah, I am pretty sure that does not mean I am 'doing it like Ueshiba' either though... ;)

:D

i got you beat. i had tripped on my own two feet many times; thus, i had elevated myself the "best" status. :)

Dave Gallagher
07-02-2012, 07:10 AM
Quite a few times both in and out of the dojo I have tripped for no reason at all. Does this mean that I should be called O Dave?

gregstec
07-02-2012, 07:26 AM
Dan. Obviously the context is not sinking in for you my friend. Post 5 was about Ueshiba. Then I'm asked how I come to that conclusion.

Through my own experience is the answer. Now, I can't use you as an example can I. I can't think of anyone else doing it off hand.

Now, Janet remebers someone who did it too.

It's called discussing a point raised by the posted video. I actually found that point interesting as I've never really put any emphasis on it.

I must admit I haven't seen anyone do the little hop though. Now that was bouyant!

Peace.G.

Tohei used to hop and skip all the time.....

Greg

phitruong
07-02-2012, 07:27 AM
Does this mean that I should be called O Dave?

nope. that reserved for those intimate private moments with your significant other. :D

gregstec
07-02-2012, 07:28 AM
I remember Dave Lowry once writing that he has never trained with a Menkyo or high level teacher who did not make at least one error during training. I would agree with that assessment.

Here is the old man himself falling down (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LELJJkFIxk)
Of course it doesn't mean anything, but someone brought it up on my forum. Mentioning that they hadn't seen it before. I hadn't seen it before either.
Dan

Sure you have; it was just hidden in plain sight :D

greg

Dave Gallagher
07-02-2012, 08:05 AM
Quote from Phi Truong:
"nope. that reserved for those intimate private moments with your significant other"

.....HAAAAAAAAAAA!! Good one.

Gorgeous George
07-02-2012, 09:23 AM
Graham moving (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViVKk7hc5To)


I feel so embarrassed: not just for the guy taking 'ukemi', but for the people who are there watching; what a complete waste of time for everybody, to indulge one man's self-delusion.
There is no aikido here, whatsoever - just indulgence of pretence.

Try putting in the hard work - rather than just prancing about, and claiming you have the ability which others have actually had to earn.

graham christian
07-02-2012, 10:30 AM
Tohei used to hop and skip all the time.....

Greg

Ah, very true. It's all to do with the hips ie: Hip-Hop..:sorry:

Peace.G.

Richard Stevens
07-02-2012, 12:53 PM
I once tripped on my hakama and went face first into the mat... while holding a sword. Life is nicer if you have Mr. Christian on your ignore list.

Hellis
07-02-2012, 01:02 PM
`Graham moving`

To be honest I thought Grahams hand flourishes were just like Osensei - ( O-sensei Harold Brosious )

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://aikido-bracknell.blogspot.com/

Rob Watson
07-02-2012, 01:06 PM
... I tripped on a Hakama once... :uch:

Yeah, I am pretty sure that does not mean I am 'doing it like Ueshiba' either though... ;)

:D

Look more closely ... someone is standing on the hak. Can't tell exactly but it looks like Mr. Chiba.

Gorgeous George
07-02-2012, 03:47 PM
Life is nicer if you have Mr. Christian on your ignore list.

+1

He's ruined this 'site for me.

DH
07-02-2012, 04:45 PM
Richard Stevens wrote:
Life is nicer if you have Mr. Christian on your ignore list.
+1
He's ruined this 'site for me.
No comment on individual people, but if you go to any budo site for the arts that rely on kata and forms you will find truly spaced out, bonkers, kind of people that are nothing more than entertainment. You see them in Taiji, Aikido, Karate, anywhere where they cannot be tested by people on those same forums who can offer real pressure. I have seen some that were so far gone that their videos are now famous and are frequently put up on the screen at budo parties. There is simply no end to them in arts that don't let you challenge them. Which is why you only find them in those arts. Have you ever seen them in large numbers in Judo or Bjj or MMA? Nope, they would get the S#$% kicked out of themselves for daring to use the name of those arts. Many of us just use these people to forward discussions as perfect examples of "What not to do" in real budo. As such they are productive on any forum to show all of the errors and things to avoid.

I'll leave you to discuss the who's who. I just wouldn't be worried about who habituates forums. The upside of having all types on the net is that we get to meet people with very real skills and information who will interface and share. This is leading to meet ups and real sharing. Trust me the odd balls of the internet, will NEVER...EVER, appear on a mat with those who everyone knows are the real deal. Thus they hound the forums since it is the only place they can really survive.

Think positively. Welcome them as discussion starters and entertainment. Really, no one of credibility takes any of them seriously, and the juniors who do...well, it's only a matter of time before they learn. Usually they just have to put their hands on someone with real Aikido or taiji skills and then they're on their way to good budo.

I love the IP/aiki discussion in that you just simply cannot B.S. your way out of it. Shihans and Shodans alike, fail on contact. It's over before it begins. And those getting educated in IP/aiki, are spotting the imposters as they simply walk across a room. An ever increasing number of Aikido teachers can disqualify Shihan pretenders just watching them move. And the rest of the Budo people sit there and wonder how you knew? I call it before I even touch hands, and it's over. So reading some of these peoples writings as they go on and on about what they think they know....is really amusing for many people reading.
So, cheer up. People are listening, meeting and training. They get it. George Ledyard once said,"This might be the best time to be alive in budo." Why? We are getting to meet with some interesting teachers who will ACTUALLY teach!!! And some of them are funny as hell.
And look...we're building bridges between the arts and making friends. Not bad considering their past.

Dan

DH
07-02-2012, 05:07 PM
Look more closely ... someone is standing on the hak. Can't tell exactly but it looks like Mr. Chiba.
I think so too.
It is kinda cool to see how together Ueshiba is, even during and after the fall!!
Dan

George S. Ledyard
07-02-2012, 05:11 PM
I came to this late.... out of town.

At first I was tempted to take the O-Sensei video at face value and assume that the Founder's knees were simply older than his perpetually youthful attitude about waza, i.e his knee gave out when he dropped and he tipped over. But after many viewings I can clearly see that I was wrong in this.

Clearly O-Sensei was executing a movement from the "drunken monkey" style of Aikido, not taught publicly. What appeared to be a knee collapsing was really a masterful use of the neutral pivot point or "jiku point" allowing the Founder to give the appearance of falling sideways (thereby avoiding any strike that would have been coming at his head from the rear).

The hand he put down that appeared to be supporting him as he pushed up was actually a manifestation of the vertical dimension as shown in the "aiki cross"... his ki clearly in balance out of the palm and the shoulder simultaneously. It served as an anchor to the Earth should he have chosen to project his legs up for a spinning kick.

The uninitiated might well believe that he was slightly unstable as he got up as evidenced by his back and forth motion as he got his hips underneath him again. But that would only show their low level of understanding as it is clear to anyone with deeper knowledge of internal power and the spiritual world of Shinto that the Founder was demonstrating the very advanced concept of the "floating boat on a rough sea" as described in the Kojiki. What appears to be somewhat unstable movement is in reality an extremely advanced technique for projecting a wave like energy outwards thereby making ones opponent unstable and is one of the secret techniques of Daito Ryu.

I am continually appalled at the low level of discussion on the forums by people who profess to know better. How Dan could have thought that this man, the greatest martial artist of all time had merely fallen down is a testament to the infinite subtlety of the Founder's aiki.

Chris Li
07-02-2012, 05:14 PM
I came to this late.... out of town.

At first I was tempted to take the O-Sensei video at face value and assume that the Founder's knees were simply older than his perpetually youthful attitude about waza, i.e his knee gave out when he dropped and he tipped over. But after many viewings I can clearly see that I was wrong in this.

Clearly O-Sensei was executing a movement from the "drunken monkey" style of Aikido, not taught publicly. What appeared to be a knee collapsing was really a masterful use of the neutral pivot point or "jiku point" allowing the Founder to give the appearance of falling sideways (thereby avoiding any strike that would have been coming at his head from the rear).

The hand he put down that appeared to be supporting him as he pushed up was actually a manifestation of the vertical dimension as shown in the "aiki cross"... his ki clearly in balance out of the palm and the shoulder simultaneously. It served as an anchor to the Earth should he have chosen to project his legs up for a spinning kick.

The uninitiated might well believe that he was slightly unstable as he got up as evidenced by his back and forth motion as he got his hips underneath him again. But that would only show their low level of understanding as it is clear to anyone with deeper knowledge of internal power and the spiritual world of Shinto that the Founder was demonstrating the very advanced concept of the "floating boat on a rough sea" as described in the Kojiki. What appears to be somewhat unstable movement is in reality an extremely advanced technique for projecting a wave like energy outwards thereby making ones opponent unstable and is one of the secret techniques of Daito Ryu.

I am continually appalled at the low level of discussion on the forums by people who profess to know better. How Dan could have thought that this man, the greatest martial artist of all time had merely fallen down is a testament to the infinite subtlety of the Founder's aiki.

:D

+1

Best,

Chris

DH
07-02-2012, 05:19 PM
I came to this late.... out of town.

At first I was tempted to take the O-Sensei video at face value and assume that the Founder's knees were simply older than his perpetually youthful attitude about waza, i.e his knee gave out when he dropped and he tipped over. But after many viewings I can clearly see that I was wrong in this.

Clearly O-Sensei was executing a movement from the "drunken monkey" style of Aikido, not taught publicly. What appeared to be a knee collapsing was really a masterful use of the neutral pivot point or "jiku point" allowing the Founder to give the appearance of falling sideways (thereby avoiding any strike that would have been coming at his head from the rear).

The hand he put down that appeared to be supporting him as he pushed up was actually a manifestation of the vertical dimension as shown in the "aiki cross"... his ki clearly in balance out of the palm and the shoulder simultaneously. It served as an anchor to the Earth should he have chosen to project his legs up for a spinning kick.

The uninitiated might well believe that he was slightly unstable as he got up as evidenced by his back and forth motion as he got his hips underneath him again. But that would only show their low level of understanding as it is clear to anyone with deeper knowledge of internal power and the spiritual world of Shinto that the Founder was demonstrating the very advanced concept of the "floating boat on a rough sea" as described in the Kojiki. What appears to be somewhat unstable movement is in reality an extremely advanced technique for projecting a wave like energy outwards thereby making ones opponent unstable and is one of the secret techniques of Daito Ryu.

I am continually appalled at the low level of discussion on the forums by people who profess to know better. How Dan could have thought that this man, the greatest martial artist of all time had merely fallen down is a testament to the infinite subtlety of the Founder's aiki.

Priceless. Thanks George!
Dan

Hilary
07-02-2012, 07:49 PM
Everyone makes mistakes, it is how you recover that counts. At a high skill level the mistakes are harder to see because nage transitions to something that works and everyone thinks that the technique was simply more sophisticated. The less idealized and more realistic the attack the greater the likelihood of your initial technique going south. My sensei often has us working off of the second and third strikes to allow for centered ukes (have to draw them out because experienced fighters are not going to give you their center easily). Getting off topic so I'll quit.

That having been said holey mackerel if you can fight in a hakama you can fight in anything (I have big feet, always getting caught).

DH
07-02-2012, 07:55 PM
I once tripped on my hakama and went face first into the mat... while holding a sword. Life is nicer if you have Mr. Christian on your ignore list.
I once had to do an Iai technique (a vertically leaping technique with a change of feet) in front of everyone. I drew...leaped up...and was firmly planted to the earth with my back foot on my own Hakama. I was forth with -and rather promptly- planted on my own ass...with a sword in my hand!!
Cough....
It was a very looong time before everyone stopped laughing. :o
Dan

philipsmith
07-03-2012, 02:24 AM
I came to this late.... out of town.

At first I was tempted to take the O-Sensei video at face value and assume that the Founder's knees were simply older than his perpetually youthful attitude about waza, i.e his knee gave out when he dropped and he tipped over. But after many viewings I can clearly see that I was wrong in this.

Clearly O-Sensei was executing a movement from the "drunken monkey" style of Aikido, not taught publicly. What appeared to be a knee collapsing was really a masterful use of the neutral pivot point or "jiku point" allowing the Founder to give the appearance of falling sideways (thereby avoiding any strike that would have been coming at his head from the rear).

The hand he put down that appeared to be supporting him as he pushed up was actually a manifestation of the vertical dimension as shown in the "aiki cross"... his ki clearly in balance out of the palm and the shoulder simultaneously. It served as an anchor to the Earth should he have chosen to project his legs up for a spinning kick.

The uninitiated might well believe that he was slightly unstable as he got up as evidenced by his back and forth motion as he got his hips underneath him again. But that would only show their low level of understanding as it is clear to anyone with deeper knowledge of internal power and the spiritual world of Shinto that the Founder was demonstrating the very advanced concept of the "floating boat on a rough sea" as described in the Kojiki. What appears to be somewhat unstable movement is in reality an extremely advanced technique for projecting a wave like energy outwards thereby making ones opponent unstable and is one of the secret techniques of Daito Ryu.

I am continually appalled at the low level of discussion on the forums by people who profess to know better. How Dan could have thought that this man, the greatest martial artist of all time had merely fallen down is a testament to the infinite subtlety of the Founder's aiki.

That gave me a chuckle on a very wet Tuesday morning!

gregstec
07-03-2012, 08:07 AM
Look more closely ... someone is standing on the hak. Can't tell exactly but it looks like Mr. Chiba.

So, this begs the question: "Did he do it on purpose" :)

Greg

Rob Watson
07-03-2012, 09:36 AM
I came to this late.... out of town.

At first I was tempted to take the O-Sensei video at face value and assume that the Founder's knees were simply older than his perpetually youthful attitude about waza, i.e his knee gave out when he dropped and he tipped over. But after many viewings I can clearly see that I was wrong in this.

Clearly O-Sensei was executing a movement from the "drunken monkey" style of Aikido, not taught publicly. What appeared to be a knee collapsing was really a masterful use of the neutral pivot point or "jiku point" allowing the Founder to give the appearance of falling sideways (thereby avoiding any strike that would have been coming at his head from the rear).

The hand he put down that appeared to be supporting him as he pushed up was actually a manifestation of the vertical dimension as shown in the "aiki cross"... his ki clearly in balance out of the palm and the shoulder simultaneously. It served as an anchor to the Earth should he have chosen to project his legs up for a spinning kick.

The uninitiated might well believe that he was slightly unstable as he got up as evidenced by his back and forth motion as he got his hips underneath him again. But that would only show their low level of understanding as it is clear to anyone with deeper knowledge of internal power and the spiritual world of Shinto that the Founder was demonstrating the very advanced concept of the "floating boat on a rough sea" as described in the Kojiki. What appears to be somewhat unstable movement is in reality an extremely advanced technique for projecting a wave like energy outwards thereby making ones opponent unstable and is one of the secret techniques of Daito Ryu.

I am continually appalled at the low level of discussion on the forums by people who profess to know better. How Dan could have thought that this man, the greatest martial artist of all time had merely fallen down is a testament to the infinite subtlety of the Founder's aiki.

Hold the fort! Everyone knows that super secret techique comes from drunken monkey style (Yang familiy - not that Chen garbage) - a style only known to exist on the eastern slopes of Wudan mountain deep in China. There is your chinese origin link right in plain sight! Even more notable is that in drunken monkey there are no hakamas so Ueshiba is once again seen to be a great innovator in combining ancient secret chinese arts with contemporary japanese fashion. We should all be glad he chose the hakama instead of fundoshi. I look great in fundoshi but I'm not so sure about the rest of youse guys. Drunken monkey in fundoshi is really quite wrong no matter what bridge spans heaven and earth. Plain wrong ... unless fundoshi is pink and tied 'gangsta' style then it is ok. Except on Tuesdays. I believe there is a doka on this matter - I'll have to check my notes.

davoravo
07-08-2012, 01:37 AM
Nvm, my serious question regarding ueshiba's raised rear heel at the end of technique had been overtaken by comedy

Janet Rosen
07-08-2012, 11:59 AM
Nvm, my serious question regarding ueshiba's raised rear heel at the end of technique had been overtaken by comedy

David, I can tell you that I know of one high ranking aikidoka, the late Kanai Sensei, who specifically taught this as proper stance.

davoravo
07-08-2012, 01:03 PM
Thank you Janet, I think most of my teachers would have pulled me up on that as an error so it was interesting to see. I can see it relates to a well planted front foot, possibly sending energy down into the ground, but he also does a little pop up at times.

AllanF
07-14-2012, 09:25 PM
No comment on individual people, but if you go to any budo site for the arts that rely on kata and forms you will find truly spaced out, bonkers, kind of people that are nothing more than entertainment. You see them in Taiji, Aikido, Karate, anywhere where they cannot be tested by people on those same forums who can offer real pressure...

Hey i resemble that accusation:D :D !!