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Unregistered
07-03-2002, 06:44 PM
This is a off the wall subject / question, and would be considered, I am sure, to be very poilitcially incorrect - but I really do want to hear some answers. My question is this - when I started in my dojo about 22 yrs ago, there were not many women that attended the classes. As time went on, however, more and more women have joined, as they have contributed many positve things, as we all have. However, I have noticed a rise in - get ready - back-biting, gossiping and a much more negative feeling all around. What have others experienced ? Has anyone noticed this occurrence ?

akiy
07-03-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Has anyone noticed this occurrence ?
If you're asking whether I've seen any correlation in what you've said above:

Nope.

-- Jun

Unregistered
07-03-2002, 07:55 PM
We don't have very many people in the dojo I attend and besides me, there are only 2 other women (one of them is my mother). Before class, we are usually just making small talk and laughing about our silly pet kitties, or whatever. I imagine it all depends on the women who come in the dojo. All of us are different. ;)

Robyn :)

Katie Jennings
07-03-2002, 08:17 PM
Yeah... guys can be bitches, huh? :grr:

Unregistered
07-03-2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Katie Jennings
Yeah... guys can be bitches, huh? :grr:

AHAHAHAHH !!!!

PeterR
07-03-2002, 09:29 PM
Funny the only ones that give me aggravation are other guys.

SeiserL
07-03-2002, 10:14 PM
I can't say I've seen anything other than a raise in respect for women. I enjoy training with them. Because of their size and strength, they tend to have some excellent technique. They have a different energy, so I (6'4", 220 lbs. male) have to pay attention to my enter and blend.

Until again,

Lynn

Edward
07-03-2002, 11:00 PM
Well, we do have at the dojo big problems with one female instructor, and I can tell you that the problems that usually arise with MA male practitioners such as arrogance, agressivity, megalomania, sadism...etc. have been at least doubled or tripled in her case. She has scared away most of the female yudansha and consequently became the dominant female figure in the dojo.

However, our female students surpass the guys by far in technical skills, character, helpfullness ...etc. It is always a pleasure to practice with them as they do fluid, fast and precise aikido without feeling the need to try permanently incrusting the partner into the mats. So I like to think that this instructor is an isolated case and feel pity for the rest of them who will have to take her wrath when they become yudansha... ;)

Unregistered
07-04-2002, 03:12 AM
Hello,

Unfortunately most women think and make decisions based on emotions, where most men tend to be straightforward and logical. I know this seems sexist,(I'm female by the way), but it is just a fact of brain chemistry (checkout any biology or psychology book). Of course there are many exceptions, but this tends to be the rule. Women also tend to be moodier than males (due to uncontrolable hormone fluctuations, etc.).

I find that many women also tend to make many unsupported assumptions about situations, and emotionally react to them (often imappropriately), while men normally would not react. I think this can lead to the problems of gossip, back biting, etc. Many men behave the same, but it seems much more commen in women.

With my last job I worked in a small office with 12 women and one man, so I'm sure you can imagine the horrific miscommunications, back biting, etc. that occured.

I don't mean to blame inappropriate behavior on gender specific metabolism because of course nurture plays a role as well (which also tends to be gender specific). Women usually are encouraged to react emotionally and looked down for being logical and straigt forward when men are encouraged to be unemotional and logical. Yes, there are many exceptions I know!

Unfortunately we cannot change the behavior of immature and uneducated adults today, so those of you with children, please please please encorage them to use their brains. Semi-inteligent people can see through their immediate emotional response and think about the situation (thoroughly) before reacting. Unfortunatly I find that most people of my gender do not do this. Unfortunatly this creates awkward, annoying, inappropriate situation in the dojo. Hopefully traing will help them mature. As if dealing with a small child, ignore inappropriate behavior, and acknowledge decent behavior (unless ofcourse it is too distracting/harmful, then speak to Sensei).

DaveO
07-04-2002, 06:06 AM
With respect to the previous post, it seems to me that to discuss 'women' in such a context is as equally inappropriate as to discuss 'men'. While there are some consistencies; each person is an individual and will react accordingly, regardless of gender. Cases in point: Back when I was studying Jiu-jitsu (dabbling in it, really), I practiced regularly with an absolute knockout blonde 18-year-old. Very intelligent, very mature young lady. Her gender made no difference during practice, although it made grappling a LOT of fun. Had a couple of other females in my class while learning Unarmed Combat in the Army. They were the 1st. two women accepted into the Canadian Forces Combat Arms. Total, complete, unconditional ditzes. They hogged the showers after class so the guys didn't have time to shower. (We had 15 minutes between classes.) Cried in agony when they were so much as touched by a male. Refused to do anything 'unladylike'. Given the political viewpoint at the time, they had been told they would pass Battleschool regardless of their performance, and so didn't even bother to try.
In our dojo today, we have one woman; our senior student. I've more or less latched on to her as my instructor, and she just impresses the bejeezuz out of me; a small woman of mature years with that kind of speed and precision on the mat. Also a fun, nice person to learn from.
So, I think it's really an individual issue, not a gender issue.
One thing I WOULD like to say is how impressed I am at the responses to a very politically incorrect question. It would be very easy to hurl accusations at the poster for his temerity, but aside from a few light-hearted smacks, the responses have been all rational, intelligent discussion. Kind of backs up what I think: Smart people take Aikido. ;)
Thanx!

Dave

Genex
07-04-2002, 06:56 AM
unfortunatly we dont have any women in the dojo yet, but i'm sure when they do they'll be welcome, our sensei however has a good view on Hakama, only brown belts and above can wear them, personaly i dont think women should wear them and men shouldnt anyhoo, their shouldnt be any differentials after all if sociaty is all about equal right shouldnt ppl be treated the same?
pete

Peter Goldsbury
07-04-2002, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
Hello,

Unfortunately we cannot change the behavior of immature and uneducated adults today, so those of you with children, please please please encorage them to use their brains. Semi-inteligent people can see through their immediate emotional response and think about the situation (thoroughly) before reacting. Unfortunatly I find that most people of my gender do not do this. Unfortunatly this creates awkward, annoying, inappropriate situation in the dojo. Hopefully traing will help them mature. As if dealing with a small child, ignore inappropriate behavior, and acknowledge decent behavior (unless ofcourse it is too distracting/harmful, then speak to Sensei).

Alas, in the country where I practise, Sensei might well be the very last person one should speak to about gender-related issues in the dojo.

Though he does not do aikido as far as I know, Ian Buruma has much to say about Japanese gender issues in "The Japanese Mirror" (published in the US as "Behind the Mask: On Sexual Demons, Sacred Mothers, Transvestites, Gangsters, Drifters and Other Japanese Cultural Heroes, Pantheon books, 1984).

Don't be put off by the title, by the way. It's a briliant book.

Best regards,

guest1234
07-04-2002, 08:18 AM
Alright, once again a stupid post deserving to be ignored has had so many incorrect replies I can't stand it anymore. To the 'unregistered' (sidebar to all of you, you are suppposed to at least use a different name, eg 'unregistered2' etc so we can tell you apart on a thread) who said she was female and then said most females are emotional based on physiology---sorry, you are wrong. WRONG. Don't make statements you can't back up. Feel free to quote any reputible publication.

I am a female who has spent her life in a male predominant world--the only thing that makes the fighter pilot world look feminine is a surgical residency--and I can tell you from experience that many males react emotionally and gossip with the best of them. A male 'emotional' reaction vs a female one is yell/swear/punch something vs cry, but both are emotional. We as a male dominated society just seem to deal better with the former. The best known gossip in my dojo is one of the male yudansha. Hands down. I've met mean sadistic men and women. Too soft men and women. Too introverted and extroverted men and women.

And to the fellow who had to wait while the women hogged the showers, I have spent 18 years of my life expeiencing the same thing---but with the men hogging the time. I had to wait in surgery while the guys used the changing room, first and longest. I've had 10 minutes in the shower tent while deployed, while the guys had 23 hours and 50 minutes. Usually it was at 'useful' times like 0300, or 1130. Almost always, it was after a popular men's time, so there would be only cold water left. I have been places where I am the second most senior officer on a base, and the one male above and four males below me have private tents, while I as a female share mine with 12 other females, a ratio seen only in the lowest enlisted ranks among the men deployed.

Sometimes in life, bad things happen. Unfair things happen. Grow up and get on with it, and don't try to pigeon hole people into a group so you can blame their whole section of the population. There is no biological/chemical cause for women to be logical and men not, for men to gossip and women not (yes, I meant what I wrote, and if you think it was backwards read the third sentence in this paragraph again). People are individuals, and basing your expeience and opinion of them on their genitalia or the color of their skin is so inappropriate that I am amazed Jun would let something like this be raised on this forum.

Chuck Clark
07-04-2002, 10:36 AM
Colleen,

What you said!! I doubt anyone could say it better.

Thanks,

aiki_what
07-04-2002, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by ca

Sometimes in life, bad things happen. Unfair things happen. Grow up and get on with it, and don't try to pigeon hole people into a group so you can blame their whole section of the population.


DAMN!!!!! Colleen, Will you marry me! Just kidding, I am already spoken for...but you sound just like my wife.

Everyone give Colleen an AMEN!!

DaveO
07-04-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by ca

And to the fellow who had to wait while the women hogged the showers, I have spent 18 years of my life expeiencing the same thing---but with the men hogging the time. I had to wait in surgery while the guys used the changing room, first and longest. I've had 10 minutes in the shower tent while deployed, while the guys had 23 hours and 50 minutes. Usually it was at 'useful' times like 0300, or 1130. Almost always, it was after a popular men's time, so there would be only cold water left. I have been places where I am the second most senior officer on a base, and the one male above and four males below me have private tents, while I as a female share mine with 12 other females, a ratio seen only in the lowest enlisted ranks among the men deployed.

Sometimes in life, bad things happen. Unfair things happen. Grow up and get on with it, and don't try to pigeon hole people into a group so you can blame their whole section of the population.

Er... Colleen;
I believe that ifyou read my entire post, you would find my argument was yours: that each person is an individual; not a gender stereotype. I find it interesting that you chose to respond only to the negative example in my post.
As to your advice to bad things happening, from reading your post, I could advise you to do the same.
Dave.

guest1234
07-04-2002, 03:58 PM
Dave,

I did notice that you had an overall positive tone, and I commend you for it. I also noticed that you had to toss in your observations of the the knock-out blonde 18 year old who made grappling more fun, and the unpleasant interaction with the two Army women (who I assume were not as fun to grapple with as the 18 year old).

Who would feel comfortable with a post that read: I wouldn't say training with Blacks is so bad, I remember a tae kwan do class I had a few years ago, there was this Black guy, a lot of fun to pin...but then I had a small unit tactics class, had the first two Blacks ever admitted to this class in it, and they just didn't fit in, complained, refused to do what they were supposed to....

I know that Dave is not someone who would, nor are most of those (Thank God) who do Aikido, or post here. Just one more thing for me to be grateful for on this Independence Day... so Happy 4th to you all, I have to go start the BBQ now or the lobster is going to be raw for dinner....

Peter Goldsbury
07-06-2002, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by ca
Alright, once again a stupid post deserving to be ignored has had so many incorrect replies I can't stand it anymore. To the 'unregistered' (sidebar to all of you, you are suppposed to at least use a different name, eg 'unregistered2' etc so we can tell you apart on a thread) who said she was female and then said most females are emotional based on physiology---sorry, you are wrong. WRONG. Don't make statements you can't back up. Feel free to quote any reputible publication.

People are individuals, and basing your expeience and opinion of them on their genitalia or the color of their skin is so inappropriate that I am amazed Jun would let something like this be raised on this forum.

Colleen,

I share your sentiments exactly and I think your wrath has touched upon a general problem with discussion forums.

I contribute to three and regularly look at a fourth. They differ in the degree to which they are regulated by their moderators.

My impression of Aikiweb is that it is open and basically self-regulating, in the sense that posts thought to contravene the unwritten rules and customs are ignored, or answered appropriately, as you have done. But I would disagree with the view that Jun Akiyama should not have allowed 'Unregistered' to post her comments, even if they are thought to be "stupid", for none of the ground rules of the forum have been broken.

The openness of Aikiweb will inevitably invite posts which are 'politically incorrect', whatever this term means, or not supported by evidence (which is a different issue, in my opinion). My own post was a response to the opinion expressed that a Sensei is the best person to deal with gender issues in a dojo. From my own experience, especially in Japan, I think that this is incorrect. It it sufficiently common in Japan to be a normal fact of life that decisions are made on the basis of genitalia and skin colour, as you put it. A concrete example of what this means is that there are no women aikidoka abve the level of 6th dan and only 4 regular foreign instructors listed in the entire Aikikai.

But I am sure you know all this, so I was surprised that you felt that Jun should not have allowed the posts. As I said, I agree with your sentiments, but this is a discussion forum and I wonder what expectations you have of Aikiweb.

Best regards,

Unregistered
07-08-2002, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by ca
Alright, once again a stupid post deserving to be ignored has had so many incorrect replies I can't stand it anymore. To the 'unregistered' (sidebar to all of you, you are suppposed to at least use a different name, eg 'unregistered2' etc so we can tell you apart on a thread) who said she was female and then said most females are emotional based on physiology---sorry, you are wrong. WRONG. Don't make statements you can't back up. Feel free to quote any reputible publication.

I am a female who has spent her life in a male predominant world--the only thing that makes the fighter pilot world look feminine is a surgical residency--and I can tell you from experience that many males react emotionally and gossip with the best of them. A male 'emotional' reaction vs a female one is yell/swear/punch something vs cry, but both are emotional. We as a male dominated society just seem to deal better with the former. The best known gossip in my dojo is one of the male yudansha. Hands down. I've met mean sadistic men and women. Too soft men and women. Too introverted and extroverted men and women.

And to the fellow who had to wait while the women hogged the showers, I have spent 18 years of my life expeiencing the same thing---but with the men hogging the time. I had to wait in surgery while the guys used the changing room, first and longest. I've had 10 minutes in the shower tent while deployed, while the guys had 23 hours and 50 minutes. Usually it was at 'useful' times like 0300, or 1130. Almost always, it was after a popular men's time, so there would be only cold water left. I have been places where I am the second most senior officer on a base, and the one male above and four males below me have private tents, while I as a female share mine with 12 other females, a ratio seen only in the lowest enlisted ranks among the men deployed.

Sometimes in life, bad things happen. Unfair things happen. Grow up and get on with it, and don't try to pigeon hole people into a group so you can blame their whole section of the population. There is no biological/chemical cause for women to be logical and men not, for men to gossip and women not (yes, I meant what I wrote, and if you think it was backwards read the third sentence in this paragraph again). People are individuals, and basing your expeience and opinion of them on their genitalia or the color of their skin is so inappropriate that I am amazed Jun would let something like this be raised on this forum.

Thank you Colleen for showing once again how a woman will often "emotionally" react to something before thinking it through (or before thoroughly reading/comprehending something). Best laugh I've had all day.

-Unregistered woman

Bruce Baker
07-08-2002, 08:34 AM
For the record, Colleen and I would not get along, for the simple reason when she hit me and hurt herself it would be my fault for her getting hurt ... and all I did was stand there?

Even though I see your point, and girly boys who cheer you on, that post was read as emotionally catalyzed, when posting without emotion was the subject.

Until you find your emotional attachment, your huband/wife and get that out of the way/in perspective, you are a boat in search of a harbor susecptable to all kinds of emotional baggage/ let alone the politics of military life no one wants to talk about? Specifically, this is not aimed at any one person, as the subject of backbiting is an attempt to gain some emotional stability by creating instabity from others social comfort in the community, i.e. the Aikido community.

Being the old married guy, I get varied results with women who practice and expect to get control of every situation, when the inevitablity of non-control should be the farthest thing from your conscious mind with practicing. I guess that is why most self control freaks try to avoid me after they have hurt themselves by struggling to attain superiority when being uke in stead of harmonizing with an overwhelming force?

I commend Collen for her content, but I condemn her emotional "wrong, wrong, Wrong" and deliberations into the emotional arena.

As for the subject matter of the question ... it only becomes important if you make it important. Don't make it important.

Pretoriano
07-08-2002, 08:26 PM
Let them laugh, and gossip, give them some cookies, what you can do against nature?
they just bring some color, gracious dancing like movements. They dont really bother anyone? and personally ,I just try to train only men on the mat, but there are some females with an attitude, respect and care for them, thats it.

Sascha Witt
07-08-2002, 10:33 PM
To answer the original question. Our dojo is fairly new (not even 2 years old), but at least so far there seems to be no problems (gender related or otherwise). The group we have so far provides a very positive environment... and yes we do have a few women (admittedly not very many) in our classes. I'd say it's not "women" that cause the problem (even if at your dojo it happens to be women), but a certain type of unpleasant personality.

As for "politically incorect" I still say whoever came up with that garbage concept is seriously "psychological challenged" (I hope that's the "politically correct" way of saying "nuts"). It is no more than an excuse for people frustrated in their lives to let out their frustrations on someone else by twisting every word in their mouths.

On to studies on men and women: scientist tell you one thing now and another 10 years later often dependent on what happens to be "politically correct" and/or socially acceptable at the time and the bias the scientist has... I wouldn't put too much faith into them, especially since I'd give any woman a run for her money when it comes to being emotional or illogical.

Lastly I wish to point out that if it weren't for men enjoying to "wrestle" with women (and I dare say vice versa) non of us would be alive today. I find it sad that this concept is so offensive, taboo and politically incorrect in our society.

Hanna B
07-09-2002, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Unregistered
As time went on, however, more and more women have joined, as they have contributed many positve things, as we all have. However, I have noticed a rise in - get ready - back-biting, gossiping and a much more negative feeling all around. What have others experienced ? Has anyone noticed this occurrence ?
I have seen dojos where the women have not behaved according to the dojos general tone of dojo behaviour; simply because they are not expected to. This has been environments where women in general are not taken seriously as practitioners, but regarded nice things to have around... like flowers that make the world much nicer and warmer, but they are not really expected to learn much aikido.
Originally posted by Pretoriano Let them laugh, and gossip, give them some cookies, what you can do against nature?
they just bring some color, gracious dancing like movements. They dont really bother anyone?well, pretty much like this. I have difficulties in deciding if this post is meant to be ironic or not! Luckily, these places are exceptions as far as I know. When this is how it works, a serious female practitioner will probably like to keep the number of women in the dojo to a minimum, as more women decrease her chances as being seen as an aikido practitioner, instead of primarily as a woman, on the mat.

Regards,
Hanna Björk

deepsoup
07-09-2002, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Unregistered


Thank you Colleen for showing once again how a woman will often "emotionally" react to something before thinking it through (or before thoroughly reading/comprehending something). Best laugh I've had all day.

-Unregistered woman

Colleen's post was, as always, coherent, well structured and logical. That you characterise it as an 'emotional response' when that was clearly not the case says more about you than it does about her.

If I may drag you back to the content of her post, you said:

Unfortunately most women think and make decisions based on emotions, where most men tend to be straightforward and logical. I know this seems sexist,(I'm female by the way), but it is just a fact of brain chemistry (checkout any biology or psychology book).

and Colleen challenged you to quote any reputable publication to support this bold assertion.

Since you're arguing about biology/physiology/psychology with a medical doctor here, if you want to have any credibility you'd best be able to quote your sources. Put up or shut up!

Sean
x

Another Unregistered
07-09-2002, 05:11 PM
Hello all, as a female former research biologist, I will admit there are scientifically documented differences between male and female brains. They do not, however, involve women's thoughts/impulses being based in "emotion", and men's in "logic". Research shows for example, that while more men than women are very good at math, leading to the assumption that men in general are better at math than women, more men than women are also VERY BAD at math (have learning disabilities). In this case, men have more of a range of mathematical ability - from terrible to gifted - than women, whose abilities center more around the mean. Also, some research suggests that women use both halves of their brain simultaneously, whereas men tend to use their dominant half (left or right) more often. Is this why women say men are incapable of doing two things at once?

Women really do cry more than men, but men become violently angry more often than women. These are both emotional reactions, as Colleen pointed out.

There are probably more differences in the brain activity patterns between right and left handers than there are between men and women. For example, the language center for 1/3 of lefties is in the right brain. It's in the left for other folks - male and female.

Any neuroscience experts care to comment?

To me the gossip and backbiting in the dojo the first guy complained about is a version of the "toxic office" syndrome, rather than a problem specific to a particular gender.

I've encountered gossipy groups of backstabbing women, yes. Rather than this being indicative of "emotionalism", it might mean they are all competing with eachother (or with you!) for something. Have you never witnessed backstabby gossipy male office coworkers? I sure have. Why are they doing it? You are the competition, they wish to get ahead. Same thing.

If the office (or dojo)leadership conditions are bad, this kind of behavior can crop up.

Chocolateuke
07-09-2002, 09:56 PM
yeah me only uses 1 part of my brain seen? no grammer! suck at math! and loves to eat sugar!! seen?? yeah!

besides that point I think more ill stay out of this one! except to say Good post CA and Sean and Another registered ( see cant spell). And yes the "seens" are on perpose ever read Otherland? great book much scanny stuff and weird stuff.

Paul Clark
07-18-2002, 01:37 PM
I am a female who has spent her life in a male predominant world--the only thing that makes the fighter pilot world look feminine is a surgical residency--and I can tell you from experience that many males react emotionally and gossip with the best of them.

Colleen,

Just in case you're still reading this thread:

Well said, but be prepared to get a new nickname out of the "react emotionally and gossip with the best of them" remark if any fighter pilots besides me read this!

By the way, for anyone interested, sounds to me like Colleen would make the perfect fighter pilot wife, maybe even a good fighter pilot.

I'm also already spoken for :-)

Paul

Rinja Hents
07-23-2002, 09:22 AM
We have:

20 Aikidokas

2 women

ZERO PROBLEM

Chocolateuke
07-23-2002, 11:49 AM
we have almost a 50 50 ratio of men to women and zero problem!

Another UNReg
07-23-2002, 12:12 PM
The dojo I belong to has about 4 women out of about 30-40 total, and no problems that I'm aware of.

The BBC news has an interesting article today titled "Sexes handle emotions differently".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2146003.stm

Apparently women remember emotionally-charged images more vividly than men do, and women's brains process such information differently than men's brains.

I think this translates into: Women are more likely to remember the details of Freddy Kruger movies than men are??? Or have nightmares related to Freddy Kruger movies???

Kami
07-24-2002, 04:47 AM
Let them laugh, and gossip, give them some cookies, what you can do against nature?

they just bring some color, gracious dancing like movements. They dont really bother anyone? and personally ,I just try to train only men on the mat, but there are some females with an attitude, respect and care for them, thats it.
KAMI : Congratulations, Manuel! You raged aggressively against a post of mine in this Forum, where I expressed an opinion, based on history and facts, and then you came on with this conceited, arrogant and "tolerant" post. How should we consider it? A piece of intelectuality?

I hope you were kidding. If you were not, then I'd say you are quite intolerant and repressive.

IMO

George S. Ledyard
07-24-2002, 06:14 AM
Well, I have to say that my own experience has been fairly atypical in that right from the very start of my training I trained with a whole group of strong women. So it is hard for me to identify with people who even think of women in the dojo as an issue.

When I started in the DC dojo under Saotome Sensei there were five yudansha who had moved there to help him open the dojo. Three of the five were women. Raso Hultgren now runs her own dojo in Missoula, MT. Megan Reisel later ran a dojo in the LA area. Sarah Bluestine still trains at the DC dojo. The two guys are out of Aikido now.

Shortly after the dojo opened we had Linda Holliday (then Hultgren) come to train for a while. She is now the Chief instructor of Aikido of Santa Cruz.

Patty (Saotome, though she wasn't married to Sensei at that point) arrived when the dojo was open under a year. She is now a 6th Dan and and one of the top instructors in the ASU.

Then I got transferred to the Seattle area by my company. Saotome Sensei told me to train with Mary Heiny Sensei (now 6th Dan) whom he had known in Japan. That dojo had a majority of women in the senior ranks. Pam Cooper, Kimberly Richardson, and Joanne Veneziano all run their own schools now and all came out of that dojo.

When I started my own place half of my most senior folks were women. I must say that I couldn't have done what I did with that dojo without their support. Lee Crawford Sensei (my Assisant chief Instructor) and Martha Levenson Sensei both run their own schools now.

Not only were none of these women "problems" in the various schools I have mentioned but rather in every case they were the mainstays of those schools both in terms of caring for those schools and in terms of modeling solid training. In the few cases where there were problems in training it was more likely to be caused by "macho" guys lacking control over their testosterone as any kind of problem with issues of the females in the dojo. There is no common thread which ties their practices together as "Women's" in fact Patty Saotome Sensei would probably bounce you around but good for suggesting such a thing.

Now one can have an obnoxious student of either sex in a dojo and it can cause problems. But it has been my experience that when men are complaining about women in the dojo it isn't the women who are the problem.

Hanna B
08-06-2002, 02:44 AM
In all dojos where I've put my foot, there have been lots of males around. This has however not been a problem as far as I have seen.

:straightf

Hanna Björk

SeiserL
08-06-2002, 09:37 AM
Women in the dojo, very politically incorrect. Women not in the dojo, also very politically incorrect.

IMHO, its a great opportunity for us to eneter and blend with each other in an attempt to find harmony not the continud ignorance that exist between the sexes. It isn't the gender that's the problem, its the attitude.

Until again,

Lynn

Henry Javier
08-06-2002, 12:54 PM
When I started training Aikido, there was a woman in the Dojo. From my point of view, she was excellent, brave, valiant, quite attractive, and seemed to love Aikido. Since the compasion and special treatments disapeared to her (increased the intensity of training), she became sad all the time, trying to impose her point of view all the time and giving no chance to anyone to disclaim her thougths. There were moments, when she had the menstruation, that the techniques hurted her more than the usual and instead of explaining that, she changed her expression and in a very loud voice used to say, hey¡¡¡¡¡¡¡, don't do it that rough, don't you see I'm a lady¡¡¡¡, and when it was her turn, she did it the rougher she could. I think this must be an special case, so the point is that women have the same oportunities to make the goals, but they need to be understood because their different nature and physical characteistics. I`ve seen very good women doing very good Aikido, and plus the armony it represents, the beauty they add is nice to the eyes. Don't expect a woman be like a man, that's a mistake, but as aikidoka they can be as good as any man.

P.D: I don't think Aikido is a "just for men martial art". If you can feel love you can practice Aikido.

rachmass
08-06-2002, 01:07 PM
"Don't expect a woman be like a man, that's a mistake, but as aikidoka they can be as good as any man."

or woman!!!

Pretoriano
08-06-2002, 07:32 PM
KAMI : Congratulations, Manuel! You raged aggressively against a post of mine in this Forum, where I expressed an opinion, based on history and facts, and then you came on with this conceited, arrogant and "tolerant" post. How should we consider it? A piece of intelectuality?

I hope you were kidding. If you were not, then I'd say you are quite intolerant and repressive.

IMO
-.What, what is this? express your opinion about women politically blah, blah, blah etc.

My answer, still the same in both post.

Salute

Pretorian

Deb Fisher
08-06-2002, 08:06 PM
Maybe I'm just oggulating, but I think this whole thread sucks.

Deb Fisher
08-06-2002, 08:14 PM
Ooops, emotional reaction.

Sorry.

Deb Fisher
08-06-2002, 08:19 PM
It just really makes me emotional when SOME PEOPLE DON'T SEE ANYONE WITH MY GENDER AS A HUMAN BEING.

Deb Fisher
08-06-2002, 08:31 PM
We all know that these thread-starters would be very inappropriate:

"Well, there are black people in my dojo, and they are really funny and have great rhythm but boy their fingers are always all sticky from eating so much watermelon and I've noticed that people's stuff keeps going 'missing' now that they've joined."

or perhaps...

"You know, the Jews in my dojo are really good with money... to a fault! They are always looking for a way to get out of paying all their dues! Do any of you have trouble like this at your dojo?"

We know in our hearts that this kind of talk is very wrong, because we KNOW that a whole huge group of people cannot be penned in by divisive stereotypes. It's ineffective, it's closed-minded, it's very un-aiki.

Please, someone tell me why this "politically incorrect" thread is any different from the ugly, hateful example threads I have provided?

Please tell me why women seem to be the last group of people it's okay to hate and denegrate in public.

guest1234
08-06-2002, 08:43 PM
Colleen,

Just in case you're still reading this thread:

Well said, but be prepared to get a new nickname out of the "react emotionally and gossip with the best of them" remark if any fighter pilots besides me read this!

By the way, for anyone interested, sounds to me like Colleen would make the perfect fighter pilot wife, maybe even a good fighter pilot.

I'm also already spoken for :-)

Paul
went away for awhile... hey, Paul, considering my call sign already is Fingers, ever since my first squadron (the Pantons), I could consider a name change, but probably would keep forgetting to answer to it!:rolleyes:

and I'd make a GREAT fighter pilot---;) ---although I must admit my 450 hours are undoubtedly no where near yours...

reminds me of an arguement I once got into with my pilot in how to transfer control of the radar (he was a young LT, while I was a not much older Capt)...finally he had to call back to the sqdn for advice, and dumbly (or heroicly) admitted on our return to the sqdn that I had been right but he hadn't tried my advice until it was echoed by the major to whom he'd spoken. My flt cmdr, who had had to answer his call, threw a magazine at him at said 'she may not have as many hours as you do, but ALL of hers are in the B model":eek:

guest1234
08-06-2002, 08:47 PM
PS, I meant the docs were the ones that gossiped...as for the fighter pilots, well, what goes TDY....

Unregistered
08-07-2002, 03:54 AM
KAMI has stated : I hope you were kidding. If you were not, then I'd say you are quite intolerant and repressive.

And PRETORIANO has answered :
-.What, what is this? express your opinion about women politically blah, blah, blah etc.

My answer, still the same in both post.

Salute

Pretorian
KAMI : So you were not kidding...:(

Oh, Well, my opinion is also the same, in both posts :)

Perhaps you should rethink your ways:ai:

Best

UnReg
08-07-2002, 10:32 AM
Pretoriano (from Venezuela) wrote:

"Let them laugh, and gossip, give them some cookies, what you can do against nature?they just bring some color, gracious dancing like movements. They dont really bother anyone? and personally ,I just try to train only men on the mat, but there are some females with an attitude, respect and care for them, thats it."

Henry Javier (from Venezuela) wrote:

"When I started training Aikido, there was a woman in the Dojo. From my point of view, she was excellent, brave, valiant, quite attractive, and seemed to love Aikido. Since the compasion and special treatments disapeared to her (increased the intensity of training), she became sad all the time, trying to impose her point of view all the time and giving no chance to anyone to disclaim her thougths. There were moments, when she had the menstruation, that the techniques hurted her more than the usual and instead of explaining that, she changed her expression and in a very loud voice used to say, hey¡¡¡¡¡¡¡, don't do it that rough, don't you see I'm a lady¡¡¡¡, and when it was her turn, she did it the rougher she could. I think this must be an special case, so the point is that women have the same oportunities to make the goals, but they need to be understood because their different nature and physical characteistics."

These Venezuelan guys are just hopeless in their attitudes about women...does anyone else have a problem with this in their dojo? Do you think it has anything to do with the Venezualan preoccupation with beauty contests?

Irony definitely intended.

giriasis
08-07-2002, 11:15 AM
...does anyone else have a problem with this in their dojo?
I don't see this attitude in aikido dojos in South Florida, which has a very strong Latin American influence. Maybe it has something to do with have some very strong and well respected female aikido practitioners here. In my dojo the second highest rank is a female. NO ONE would mistake calling her a "flower."

If I remember correctly, doesn't Venezuela have no female yudansha? Please correct me if I'm wrong. If there are no strong female role models there, I wouldn't be surprised that such negative attitudes are acceptable. But I bless those women trying to learn aikido in this kind of environment. Doesn't sound very friendly. I really hope these young men's views are not the views of the majority of their dojo or their sensei's for that matter.

Pretoriano
08-07-2002, 08:02 PM
I definetively like and accept women in dojo, and dont care how many hundred dans they may have, commitement, colaboration and yes I do agree with mr. Javier.

I Know that in the States woman rules, just taking the table for them, that is definively funny.

I am a modern latinoamerican, I do know others cultures as well, See, women will be totally involved in political and profesional life all around the globe in the next few decades because thats how world conditions require and demands, I dont have any problems to work in equal conditions.

But that image women been superior mounting me

is Not in my diccionary.

Pretorian

Venezuela

Pretoriano
08-07-2002, 08:16 PM
to ana marie Girioasis, See, in Caracas dojo for example, master Requena is warrant about well and safe enviroment as well as to provide good training conditions for female practicioners, same can be said in Venezuelan seminars id attended.

Anyways, I do recomend when a man is strong, and energy full train other man, you know to fit the size, to be balanced, for productivity sake.

Pretorian

Venezuela.

UnReg
08-07-2002, 08:48 PM
People seem to have missed my "Irony definitely intended" comment. I was trying to make a comment about judging a large population (of women, of Venezuelans) based on a few examples.

giriasis
08-08-2002, 01:52 PM
Okay, UnReg I did miss that, but your comment did bring the thought to mind that I remember hearing in my dojo that Venezuela (I believe- could be totally wrong) doesn't have female yudansha. That doesn't necessarily imply a good or bad thing. I would like to know the answer though and to be correct if I was wrong.

Pretorian and others, it's good to know that your sensei provides a good and safe training environment for your female aikido practitioners.

As far as wanting to train with someone your same size and ability so you can train hard, I can understand that. However, I believe a female, who has good and strong aikido skills, can fair very well against a stronger person. I'm thinking specifically of one female, sandan and originally from Peru. She is small and petite and has very power aikido because she knows how to take advantage of her size.

Women in the United States do not "rule". I think you mean that we are actually superior to our men. That is not the case from my experience. Women here seek equal treatment and don't always want their lives to be relegated to home life. However, I am also willing to work hard and support and raise a family. Most women want a choice as to the kind of life they choose. And the word "choice" is the key. Some will choose to be a mother and live a tradition life and being a mother is a wonderful thing. Others will choose just to have a career because they have no interest in raising a family. Most, will want to share the making of the income with their husbands, and share the raising and nurturing of children together. Neither one above the other, neither superior to the other.

But to bring this back to aikido, women can hold their own very well in a dojo. Out of 88 in my dojo there are about 16 of us. Most of women in the dojo are yudansha. We have several female shodans, a few nidans, a couple sandans and one godan. All these women would be insulted if they were called "flowers", "gossip mongers", and "weak". Aikido is a great equalizer. That is why I love it so much.

Deb Fisher
08-08-2002, 03:28 PM
That was very funny, UnReg.

Maybe this is all just a "Venezuela Problem"

Paul Clark
08-08-2002, 06:11 PM
Fingers,
and I'd make a GREAT fighter pilot--- ---although I must admit my 450 hours are undoubtedly no where near yours...

Wow! 450 is pretty good for a doc. I have right at 1500 F-15A-D, just under 3000 total.
My flt cmdr, who had had to answer his call, threw a magazine at him at said 'she may not have as many hours as you do, but ALL of hers are in the B model

Is that a B model Viper?

Paul

Henry Javier
08-08-2002, 07:29 PM
Anne Marie and UnReg, Greetings for both.

I think it's important to clear out a point before keeping misunderstanding each other. In Venezuela, old times, there was a male culture (macho man, remember). Since I know, more or less 15 or 20 years, the role of our women has became increasing, so at almost all the comuinities we have similar roles. I think this has meant progress to us. Actually we threat women as they deserve, and I think that like any other person, they develope any skill or attitude with the only limit they can put to themselves. We don't pratice that machism any more, may be in a minnor amount at very low educational levels but the most of our men don't do it, we don't discriminate anybody because this is a free country. The lady I mentioned in my post is an special case, we do have female Yudanshas with a very high level, and we all are proud of them, so I dont't think this is a contest to know who's better, men or women, we like practicing Aikido in the Master Ueshiba essence, and I think that's the Aikido we all are searching for.

Please keep training, and together we'll be stronger.

Pretoriano
08-08-2002, 07:40 PM
To girioasis: the first Venezuelan Yudansha was 9 years a go the last one I know 3 months or so.

"But to bring this back to aikido, women can hold their own very well in a dojo. Out of 88 in my dojo there are about 16 of us. Most of women in the dojo are yudansha. We have several female shodans, a few nidans, a couple sandans and one godan. All these women would be insulted if they were called "flowers", "gossip mongers", and "weak". Aikido is a great equalizer. That is why I love it so much"

You are so naive and funny, I yhink I like you.

Pretorian

Caracas, Venezuela

guest1234
08-08-2002, 08:44 PM
Fingers,



Wow! 450 is pretty good for a doc. I have right at 1500 F-15A-D, just under 3000 total.



Is that a B model Viper?

Paul
Yes, dating myself I know :D, 2/3 of my fighter hours are in the Viper, the rest in the F15D (well, I did wrangle a couple in the E, but don't tell anyone), and to REALLY date myself, I have a couple in the Phantom, and even three in the F100 (but in my defense, it was out of our inventory by then, it was the DART TOW at Deci)... I will always consider the F106 the one that got away... *wistful sigh* oh well, back to Aikido... ;)

aikigirl
10-11-2005, 09:51 PM
Pat Hendricks Sensei, Mary Heiny, Linda Holiday, Stephanie Yap, Patricia Guerri, Andrea Siegel, Lorraine Diane, Bernice Tom, Kayla Feder, Penny Sablove, Lia Suzuki, Danielle Moles Smith, Cindy Hayashi, Denise Barry, Mary Tesoro, Yvonne Thelwell, Sandy Olliges, Betsy Hill.
LEARN.
By the way, your "diccionary" is wrong! its written "dictionary".

Randomly passing by
10-11-2005, 11:32 PM
Do we really need to resurrect this thing? it's three years old. And dusty. Achoo!

ian
10-12-2005, 06:03 AM
Undeniably there are differences between the male and female Brain (there are psychological tests you can do which will tell you whether you are male or female (if you don't already know yourself)).

The amusing thing is, all the things we hate about women (in general), men have selected for them throughout our evolution. Conversely and all the horrible things women hate about men, women have selected for them. Thus we have to be careful about blaming the other sex for what is essentially our ancestors fault!

As a case example (not sure if this is an anecdote), male suicide rates in Sweden are supposed to have increased because many women are deciding to have children with men, but not to stay with their partners. Thus there is stronger selection for men who are quite happy to give women children with no feeling of responsibility. The deviousness of sexual competition is undeniable and prevalent in all societies - but unfortuantely it always comes around and bites us in the arse. Best to just hate people for who they are ;)

Richard Cardwell
10-12-2005, 08:56 AM
I'm a (male) baby psychologist (just started degree) and on the admittedly not indepth test version I took, I scored at 0 on the x-axis, neither male nor female in terms of my reactions or mental abilities. Some women score well into the "male" end of the spectrum, and vice versa, without there being any known correlation with sexuality.

And incidentally, men are far more inclined to gossip than are women.

Yossi
10-12-2005, 01:28 PM
[QUOTE=]However, I have noticed a rise in - get ready - back-biting, gossiping and a much more negative feeling all around. [QUOTE]

haha.... that truly made me laugh.

I can just imagine two women talking during nikyo - "well look at her, i've always hated her, look how dirty her Gi is".

Personally I don't think that's true, I believe men and women behave exactly the same in training. But then again, wherever there are women, there are..... ;)

Anonymous
10-12-2005, 01:59 PM
I'm female, I've taken those masculinity-femininity personality tests, and I came out 65% masculine/35% feminine. I'm not gay, and I don't have short hair, a mustache, OR a hormone imbalance.

The test tells you which gender you are psychologically, not physically. They don't always match.

Similarly, on the Myers-Briggs personality test, about 70% of women come out as F (for "feeler") and about 70% of men come out as T (for "thinker") but I'm a T. So was Maggie Thatcher. And so, no doubt, is Condoleeza Rice. And so are most engineers, male or female.

I've heard that many (male) clergy and pyschologists test as F.

Lorien Lowe
10-12-2005, 03:08 PM
If person A deliberately spits in person B's face, whose fault is it if person B reacts a little bit emotionally?
Maybe both?

How about if person A calls person B an illogical, petty, back-stabber?

-L

aikigirl10
10-12-2005, 07:06 PM
I'm female, I've taken those masculinity-femininity personality tests, and I came out 65% masculine/35% feminine. I'm not gay, and I don't have short hair, a mustache, OR a hormone imbalance.

The test tells you which gender you are psychologically, not physically. They don't always match.

Similarly, on the Myers-Briggs personality test, about 70% of women come out as F (for "feeler") and about 70% of men come out as T (for "thinker") but I'm a T. So was Maggie Thatcher. And so, no doubt, is Condoleeza Rice. And so are most engineers, male or female.

I've heard that many (male) clergy and pyschologists test as F.

where do u take this quiz? curious...

-Paige

Lorien Lowe
10-12-2005, 07:45 PM
Google 'Myers-Briggs' and you should find a plethora of sites.

-L

aikigirl10
10-12-2005, 08:52 PM
Interesting ... according to my results i am:

moderately expressed extrovert
slightly expressed sensing personality
moderately expressed feeling personality
moderately expressed perceiving personality

i dont exactly know the point of this quiz.... maybe i should read back thru the thread...

and "plethora" had to look that word up... learn something new every day :D

RebeccaM
10-12-2005, 09:50 PM
Don't bother reading back through the thread. It's just the usual male-female silliness that crops up in the martial arts from time to time.

giriasis
10-12-2005, 10:26 PM
Don't bother reading back through the thread. It's just the usual male-female silliness that crops up in the martial arts from time to time.

Since I was one of those "silly" women...

Actually, Rebecca, until recently before when many more women on this site have been posting and speaking up, the male reaction like that was quite common. "Female issues" always for some reason returned to lowest common denominator for some godforsaken reason. And it was really hard to discuss an issue with someone while they intentionally insult your intelligence. These days, the most recent "female issue" threads have become, for the most part, more reasonable, less base and more intelligent.

I agree with "just passing by" this is digging up a really old thread. I mean 2002? Sometimes it is just better to start another post than dig up ancient threads. I like seeing similar topics come up in new threads since there is always a new angle to discuss and less dust to sift through.

So I agree...It's best to let sleeping dogs lie.

Qatana
10-13-2005, 11:07 AM
Regarding the Meyers-Briggs test- I took it twice, got two different ratings even thought I Told The Truth both times, Neither of my results came anywhere Near my personality.
But then again, I don't fit in anywhere...

RebeccaM
10-14-2005, 09:30 PM
The middle two letters on the Myers-Briggs come up different for me depending on what kind of mood I'm in when I take the test. I guess that just means I'm on the boundary. I'm barely over the edge for J, but definitely an I.

The problem with taking things like the MBTI and other personality tests too seriously is you end up trying to put yourself and other people into neat little boxes, and that doesn't work very well. Use it as a tool for understanding yourself and others, but I'd be careful about predicting someone's behavior based on their MBTI or making any sort of decision with regards to a person based on their MBTI.

Richard Cardwell
10-15-2005, 09:01 AM
Absolutely right. With most of those tests, especially the older ones like the MBTI, there's a no better than chance possibility that it'll predict behaviour or reactions (ie. it won't).

The online ones are all so different, and usually poorly made, that it's perfectly possible to get entirely opposite results from two tests each claiming to be the same. I've been male, female, T, P, and every damn' thing under the Sun according to them. The psychological-gender one the BBC did lately was good, and I'm not just saying that 'cos the bloke who wrote it is the one who marks my work *cough*

What I was, slightly cryptically, trying to point out was that people's attitudes, actions and reactions are down to their personalities far more than their sex. I think we (mostly) know that full well. Unless we're from Venezuela, possibly ;)

Guest Appearance
10-15-2005, 12:48 PM
I have looked over this sight, and I see it as a good site with good topics. Then I came to this thread. It seems some people can't get over themselves. If you got sex issues, see a therapist. We all live together, and work at it. If not then start a fire some where else. Refering to the "Silly..." which I agree with. This thread has gone no where.

giriasis
10-15-2005, 04:08 PM
Well, "guest appearance", this thread went no where 3 years ago. Check out the dates...it's from 2002.

Oh, and it wasn't "silly" at the time.

Guest Appearance
10-17-2005, 01:00 PM
giriasis,

I see you wish to propagate a particular angle, or view, on the voice of woman, bravo to you. It is a voice very evident in your past post in this thread. You felt, in short, woman don't want to be stuck in the kitchen, they want a choice. A familiar call, that echos past decades ago, that told Harriet being a housewife was prison. A revolutionary voiced hailing "Free Edith Bunker." A voice that has change society, where woman today are able to look at their vagina's, bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan; running multi-million dollar companies, hold high government office, and have maids and nannies run their households. Who are finding themselves overstressed and suffering from a higher rate of heart disease. The list goes on, and in various degrees of success, and suffering. Therefore, I can see your advocation not to label this thread as "Silly." Where it hit home to me, seeing your view, was when you mentioned recently that in the past the view points of men where less intelligent then recently- in a span of 3 years. Boy, have us men evolved in 3 years!

As more and more men, are finding an smaller and smaller job market, they find themselves in role reversal. There are more and more men at home today then ever before. These men are house husbands, if you may wearing the apron strings, eating bon-bons on the couch, they are the Taxis, child-care providers, secondary incomes, and all the other things woman have traditionally done in the past that spurred the voice of a sex revolution, by woman. Men now are the one's doing the balancing act. Some that I talk to love it for a host of reasons, others hate it. Just like woman did 50 years ago.

Yes, you too said it, this is a silly thread, and men have become more intelligent ( a statement blatantly stereotypical and a gross misjudgment of men), but what you haven't mentioned, or maybe not living, is that society has changed. The next voice of change will be:
A. That of woman complaining about the men at home, Doh! Some woman pass that down from generation to generation.

B. That of men wanting change. Men tired of being stuck in the kitchen.

Basically, we have have to keep up with the times, and our arguments as well.

Have a nice day.

Trish Greene
10-17-2005, 02:35 PM
Guest Appearance,

Thank you for your opinions! As always I value the opinions of others and enjoy reading through them. I am trying to clearly understand what it is that you are pointing out in your last post that relates to the topic of women in the dojo?

From what I have read and understood, there has always been women training in the dojo.

What I gathered in your last post is,perhaps, a sadness at the inbalance of our society, or the inability of our society to view people as people, instead of someone that has to be stuck in a "role".

With all respect,

giriasis
10-17-2005, 08:58 PM
Okay, so you really really want to discuss the ever evolving gender roles? I think it's great that men are now house husbands. But, is this option for men still given the same regard as women who stay in the home? No, men are demeaned called lazy and treated badly for making such a choice. They are treated badly because the role of mother is still not considered an equivalent as going out and earning the money and bringing home the bacon. If our society, at least this U.S. American one, is to change our attitudes toward the role of nuturing and raising children has to change.

The ideal in my mind would be that a woman and a man would choose based on their skills, personality what they truely want to do -- some men would prefer to stay home and raise the kids while the wife brings home the bacon; some woman would prefer to stay home and raise the kids while her husband brinds home the bacon; and even some couple prefer to do both and share in the raising of a family and in supporting one. Either one of our choices would be great and empowering in my point of view.

I think it is just as bad if men feel as demeaned as women did for centuries. I don't believe in suppressing one party in order to hold the other up. I live in South Florida and do you know how many people have not hired me in Miami-Dade county because the majority of people there prefer to speak Spanish over English? The final question in my interviews are usually, "do you speak spanish?" It's frustrating as hell, but I still persevere, learn some Spanish, and move on with my life.

SeiserL
10-18-2005, 08:05 AM
It seems some people can't get over themselves. If you got sex issues, see a therapist. We all live together, and work at it. If not then start a fire some where else. Refering to the "Silly..." which I agree with. This thread has gone no where.
IMHO, the only way to "get over" ourselves is to speak openly and finally change our mental maps about how we think everything should be. I know we think we have come a long way on this sex-role issue, but I don't believe we truly have. The biggest issue with women in th dojo is men's attitude towards them. I am a man who enjoys training with anyone that wants to train hard regardless of their gender.

If a thread, or life, goes nowhere its because people are not open to new views or change. That rigidity is more in need of a therapist than someone who is willing to speak their mind about these issues. I am a psychotherapist by profession so I speak with some expertise in this area.

If we are always "politically correct" we will never address and change the things that are "politically incorrect".

Okay, he steps off his soapbox and bows as he leaves the mat.

Guest Appearance
10-18-2005, 11:03 AM
Guest Appearance,

With all respect,

Good questions. I would be glad to point out how my views relate to the topic of woman in the dojo. As the old says goes, basically, leave your ego ( both men and woman ) outside the dojo before entering the dojo. We really can't do such a thing. We can't drop who we are and pretend to walk into a utopia where everyone puts away and who and what they are. Our environment shapes who we are, society shapes who we are. To magically transform into another human being with different values and backgrounds doesn't happen. We color the dojo environment, the dojo doesn't color us. Sure we can change, over- time and through experiences. And that is at various degrees.The greatest change comes over many years, and if change does occur. I remind myself, that it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Simple electronic discourse with strangers about problems and issue is at best a hit and miss issue when it comes to, at best, resulting in possible change of our belief systems. Therefore, how we are brought up in society and how we think and feel influence or even dictates the dojo environment; how the sexes deal with each other.

This really is a silly topic, the battle of the sexes, has been around for ever and is discussed on thousands of other non-martial arts boards for decades. It is not a topic that is going away soon. I just hope people have the intelligence to recognize things have changed in society, and such arguments need to be updated, and discussed differently if people are truly willing to resolve the issues between the sexes. Those some people don't want change to the old argument and make them relevant to current times. By hold old arguments hostage to the past is a way to benefit a few. Maybe they feel a lose of purpose or power to keep old arguments alive instead of moving on to current issues that have evolved. The intelligent person recognizes that.

I guess adrongeny isn't a trait us Hyman's have. Men are wired differently then woman, boys differently then girls. There are expectations placed on boys and men that are different then woman. The key is to understand that and to respect it, and not simply bitch about it. Or enforce one's ego. Aikido is a martial art, as such things lend themselves to be that of men. I guess men are wired differently, and the social expectations placed upon men and possibly biological functions all shape the universal male profile, just as it is for woman. I recall a study that was done by toy makers that show no matter what they did in the manufacturing of toys, children's choices of toys where gender specific over-all. Also go to a play ground with young children and watch how children play, boys are wired differently then girls.

I think we hear much from woman about the conditions of the dojo as it is an environment that is uncomfortable for woman. I can see why, yet what we don't hear is that men often face the same issues as woman voice. Men have expectations of other men, and woman have expectations of men, i.e. no man or house husband is looked up kindly if he isn't or able to support a family. Men face a lot of issues in the dojo, that are over-looked or not seen by woman, which parallel many issues similar to woman. We are told to deal with it, and if we can't we are not men, by both men and woman. What we need to change it the expectation of the sexes. Many dojo's address that, there is little reason to address the few dojo's that don't especially when there are so many Aikido dojos.

Please take my post in a mild tone, all I want to point out is that change has resulted from the days Ozzie and Harriet, Edith, Archie, and Meathead, in society, and thus is reflected the Aikido dojo. It would be intelligent for some to move on, and the rest of us not to support archaic arguments, and thus, are silly.

Guest Appearance
10-18-2005, 12:43 PM
It was pointed out to me a typo I urgently need to correct. Pls. read "Hyman" as Human, in my last posting.

As I blather and babble on, I forgot to mention the role group dynamics play as well in the dojo. Group dynamics is another influential element on those training in a dojo. As much as we would like to think that the dojo dictates it's own environment, it really is society, as a result group dynamics, dictating the dojo's environment. Group dynamics plays a significant role just as the ego ( both male and female) on how we treat, interact and function with each other on the mat. This is a topic that really needs to be discussed when discussing gender conflict.

Relations between men and woman will never be without conflict. The successful opposite sex relationships will of those who find common ground and work together toward a harmonious relationship that model the elements of a successful marriage, i.e. good communication, respect all around. Those individuals that fail at this and as a result relationships with the opposite sex on or off the mat need intervention, i.e. therapy. Because then the issues are far more complex and deeply rooted then merely the inability to achieve good communication, respect and/or the other elements required for a harmonious relationship of the sexes in the dojo. In relation to what I just said, as Aikidoka should there be a line between the dojo and our daily lives? Does Aikido philosophy stop at the dojo threshold on our way out? Saddly it does for some, and I guess they are feeling alone, and thus voice so loudly. Misery loves company which might be the reason for such "Silly" people and their arguements.

With regards.

Trish Greene
10-18-2005, 12:46 PM
Good questions. I would be glad to point out how my views relate to the topic of woman in the dojo. As the old says goes, basically, leave your ego ( both men and woman ) outside the dojo before entering the dojo. We really can't do such a thing. We can't drop who we are and pretend to walk into a utopia where everyone puts away and who and what they are.

Yes you can. The only thing that stops one from doing that is their own ego, which has not been checked. I am only advocating a simple respect between two human beings despite gender and race. If we cannot see our partners on the mat as gender/race despecific, how can we have harmony with them.

Our environment shapes who we are, society shapes who we are. To magically transform into another human being with different values and backgrounds doesn't happen.

Then you have given over who you are to be shaped by people you don't agree with? Society has it's influence over you, but only to the degree that you let it influence you. Western thought is always on being "the winner" and striving towards that goal. When it takes a deeper understanding to realise that maybe the one that isn't the winner has gained much more.

I don't believe it is a silly topic. I believe it is a smaller topic that is part of a larger issue that is neither gender specific but is fully self-specific.

Ron Tisdale
10-18-2005, 01:10 PM
The successful opposite sex relationships will of those who find common ground and work together toward a harmonious relationship that model the elements of a successful marriage, i.e. good communication, respect all around.

Can someone tell me what this sentence means???

If we cannot see our partners on the mat as gender/race despecific, how can we have harmony with them.

By simply recogizing differences without making judgements about people's character based on physical attributes. I happen to be african american...I don't mind people noticing that...Its a part of who I am. I would just rather they don't make assumptions about my character based on that.

Best,
Ron

Passing by
10-18-2005, 03:53 PM
The closet sexists are often closet racists....

RuteMendes
06-29-2012, 08:01 AM
In the Dojo I attend, there are 5 men and 5 women (one of them is the teacher).
There is no gossip or that kind of environment... The main topic is almost always Aikido!
There is no diffrence at all between men and women! Everyone is treated the same and respected :) It's really nice! :)

Linda Eskin
06-29-2012, 09:50 AM
At our dojo, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the members are women. Sensei is a man, and 2 of the 5 other instructors are women. There are women in almost every class, and sometimes more women than men. Everyone trains together cooperatively, supporting each other and the dojo, and treating each other with respect.

SayWhat?
07-03-2012, 04:38 PM
I can't believe some of these responses twisting and putting spins on things for the sake of keeping up apppearences. Jun's see no evil speak no evil hear no evil approach to the thread. Attitudes such as these are great indicators of what is wrong with Aikido and why it gets all the criticial backlashand lack of respect from so many of most other martial arts. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Um, did you notice that with the exception of the last few posts, this thread dates to 2005? It's another Attack of the Reanimated Zombie Threads.

As for sexism in the dojo... News Flash! Film @ 11! Stop the Presses!
Er...where was I? Oh yeah. It ain't new and it ain't limited to aikido. I have trained in several dojos where there was blatant sexism. One had an instructor who hit on and tried to bed every female student. Another was a testosterone pit with an outrageous double standard against women even though the guys believed they were perfect "gentlemen." Another was patronizing to the nth degree.

Aikido dojos are microcosms for the rest of the world. Why would we expect them all to be some rarified bastion of equality and fairness? Nice people tend to group together; un-nice people do same. Find the dojo with the nice people and stay there.

And would the last person to leave this resurrected, stale old thread please turn out the lights?

lbb
07-03-2012, 09:06 PM
I can't believe some of these responses twisting and putting spins on things for the sake of keeping up apppearences. Jun's see no evil speak no evil hear no evil approach to the thread. .

Well, it is a seven-year-old thread. Just how much attention do you think Jun should be paying to it?

hughrbeyer
07-03-2012, 09:08 PM
Well, that post added no enlightenment, beauty, or joy to the universe.

terry137
07-03-2012, 10:30 PM
It maybe an old thread but the problem isn't .

AikidoWoman
07-04-2012, 09:06 AM
It maybe an old thread but the problem isn't .

That is true. Why would we think that the Aikido world is any different from anyplace else where women must interact with men?

The best skills a woman can wield in a man's world, are assertiveness and self-confidence. Yet, we walk a fine line between being considered assertive and self-confident, and being "pushy broads" in males' point of view.

In any social environment (and the dojo, despite being a training hall, is a social environment because it's where human beings interact), we all must learn the rules of engagement, including the very biological ones of female-male interaction. Once we do, we as women can and do earn respect from men, even some of the most ardently sexist ones, without having to sacrifice who we are.

It can be a VERY challenging pas-de-deux in the process, however.

hughrbeyer
07-04-2012, 01:20 PM
Incidentally, I was responding to "common", not MM.

Janet Rosen
07-04-2012, 02:39 PM
So we now have a couple of anonymous posters making snarky comments but not actually engaging in dialogue.
AFAIK the intent of anonymous posting here is to enable a person with a specific issue to get advice w/o creating embarrassment or danger in his or her home dojo or community.
Otherwise, if you actually have something to say, may I suggest you do as the rest of us do, be who you are and stand by what you say. It is a longtime hallmark of Aikiweb. Thank you.

lbb
07-04-2012, 04:43 PM
It maybe an old thread but the problem isn't .

That's true, but I guess I don't see any point in retroactively policing threads...does that make sense?

ken king
07-05-2012, 08:53 AM
There are several females students that attend the dojo I train at. I have not seen any gossiping at all. What I have noticed in some instances is a desire to prove themselves. It can be quite painful!

akiy
07-05-2012, 06:04 PM
Hi folks,

To the anonymous posters here who are directing their posts (which are now deleted) towards criticizing the discussion itself rather than contributing positively to the discussion itself, please read the following thread to better understand the goals of the Anonymous forum.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4325

-- Jun