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Mary Eastland
02-25-2012, 08:17 PM
Nage earnestly leads. Uke sincerely follows. As nage outlines the path, a void is left for uke to fill. The motion and connection created is Aikido.

Uke grabs and holds tightly to nage’s arm with both hands, katate tori ryote moche, offering energy for nage to perceive, move with and eventually throw uke. Listening to, really paying attention to, and honoring uke the earnest nage restores order. The throw is the by product. Often the throw is perceived as the goal. Instead the goal is the feeling of connection and harmony. The throw is the result of the connection and uke’s loss of balance.

Attention. Acceptance. Gratitude.

dps
02-25-2012, 08:36 PM
Nage earnestly leads. Uke sincerely follows. As nage outlines the path, a void is left for uke to fill. The motion and connection created is Aikido.

I can't help thinking of the nage/ule relationship as race car drafting, where one driver (uke) gets behind a leading driver's ( nage ) car;s slipstream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipstream).

dps

Carsten Möllering
02-26-2012, 06:48 AM
The aikidō I learn is constructet differently, uses different paradigms.

Nage earnestly leads. Uke sincerely follows.
Tori connects to uke and moves him. Uke does not have to follow or has the choice to not follow, but uke is moved by tori. Tori affects the body structure of uke and takes over the controll of his movements to a certain degree.

To do this, tori creates or uses what we call 'atari': A connection at a certain point or region of the bodies of tori and uke.
A basic form is that tori uses lao gong to create atari/connection. Or uses, like in katate dori, the lao gong of uke to create atari/connection.

As nage outlines the path, a void is left for uke to fill.
When I attended a class of ki-aikido (Yoshigasaki) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3c1jTkNFVI) here in Germany, the techniques indeed were created this way: Tori moved, uke tried to follow after this movement and this movement led into a 'void' / gap / emptiness, where I should have to fall.
The aikidō I know moves in the "reverse direction": Tori is "behind" uke and the movement goes from tori into uke to connect. As if "pushing" uke. And often through uke to throw him. This is like cutting through uke with the ken.

The motion and connection created is Aikido.
The motion I experienced when practicing ki-aikido (Yoshigasaki) was completely different from what I call aikidō. And it didn't work on me because it was required that uke gave up his balance, that he didn't stay centered and grounded in his own sphere. If uke (I) did ukemi in the latter sense (staying centered, grounded, giving nothing away even in the attack ...), there was technically no way to move or lead uke (me).

This was not due to the skills of my partners but due to the paradigm of the behaving of tori and uke.
If I didn't play my role as uke in a way that supported toris role, he couldn't throw me.
In the aikidō I know, the support from uke is an educational tool, depending on the skills of tori.
In the ki-aikido I experienced it was part of the paradigm of the uke-behavior.

So the the two ways of understanding the roles of uke and tori just didn't fit together. And aikidō, ki-aikido (Yoshigasaki) in this case could only be created if the acting person wanted it to evolve.
(I tried to do my best that day, because I had asked for teaching me what ki-aikido is in the view of that teacher.)

Uke ... offering energy for nage to perceive, move with and eventually throw uke.
I don't know what you understand in detail as to "offer energy". But in my paradigm the action of tori does not depend on uke offering something.
It is one possibility, that the atari is created by uke, when his ki comes to tori.
But far more interesting it is, and much more can be learned, if uke tries to not offer anything so tori himself has to do the work of connecting to uke and controll and move him.

... Often the throw is perceived as the goal. ...
Although following a different paradigm, as far as I understand yours, we very practice without actually throwing uke. We work on our own ballance and structure. We work on getting a connection to uke and hold it. We work on guiding uke by this connection. And some other things. And indeed: If everything works fine, the throw itself, kind of evolves, if tori leads his feeling/kimochi down to the ground. Maybe tori can ad momentum if he wants to.

Even if the paradigm of understanding most throws as cutting through uke (which can very clear be seen in irimi nage or tenchi nage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Rbdzht72fA0#t=528s)) doesn't leave much room for other outcomes.

Instead the goal is the feeling of connection and harmony. The throw is the result of the connection and uke's loss of balance.
So this is imortant and true in my world also.
It think the different paradigm is about what connection is, about the roles of uke and tori, about following and guiding.
And I think the different paradigms come from or lead to different goals.

And - to be honest - I have great difficulties to accept the way of performing the techniques, that is shown in the video I linked above, as aikidō.
AT the moment I am not shure whether I have to learn to accept it.
Or whether it is time for me, to learn to be more clear in my distinction.

Thank you for your thoughts about what aikidō means to you!

Gary David
02-26-2012, 10:47 AM
...............And I think the different paradigms come from or lead to different goals.

And - to be honest - I have great difficulties to accept the way of performing the techniques, that is shown in the video I linked above, as aikidō.
AT the moment I am not shure whether I have to learn to accept it.
Or whether it is time for me, to learn to be more clear in my distinction.

Thank you for your thoughts about what aikidō means to you!

Carsten
You have have hit the nail on the head......there are essentially differing views...any number of them. Acceptance of these differences could possibly only happen if the folks with the differing approaches were friends on other levels. Just talking doesn't get it as your experiences have shown in your discussions with the other group and the talking here on AikiWeb have proven. In part our problem is we have not accepted that these differences are real and that they not likely to every be closed....one Aikido is further from reality than ever, if it even existed.

It is not my responsibility to work this out....... and will leave it at that........

I am with you on approaches to the art.

Just go straight

Gary

hughrbeyer
02-26-2012, 04:53 PM
Interesting video, Carsten.

A while back, someone--Graham?--posted a video of a demonstration by Tohei, and I said at the time that I could not imagine how Tohei's training methods and the kind of movement he was clearly teaching his students, would ever lead to any real power, or even to the level of ability Tohei himself had. Looking at this video though, I do see how they could lead to a demo like this.

robin_jet_alt
02-26-2012, 06:04 PM
I definitely fall on Carsten's side of the fence on this one. The two divergent viewpoints are interesting though. You can even find them both in the same dojo, and it leads to an 'interesting' dynamic.

Mary Eastland
02-26-2012, 06:26 PM
You may agree or disagree...or you could talk about and describe your experience as I did and as Carsten did.

robin_jet_alt
02-26-2012, 07:22 PM
You may agree or disagree...or you could talk about and describe your experience as I did and as Carsten did.

Hi Mary,

I thought Carsten expressed things far better than I ever could, which is why I just agreed with him.

To me, Aikido is a martial art, which simulates a response to a genuine attack. A genuine attack can take many forms, however I don't think that many of them would include "sincerely following". Now, sincerely following may form a part of training, up to a point, however at higher levels, I don't think it is all that useful.

Taking ryote-dori as an example, the "attack" is an immobilization. As such, it is uke's role to "sincerely immobilize". If uke is then unable to move, uke can offer advice, guide nage into the correct movement, or ease off enough for nage to practice the technique.

To me, effectively dealing with an attack situation is the goal. I can feel connected to, listen to, and pay attention to uke as much as I want, but if I end up getting immobilized or struck, it won't do me much good. In fact, if that is the "goal", why not just take up ballroom dancing. (I have nothing against ballroom dancing, I would just like to point out that IMO the goals are somewhat different to aikido).

So... what do I do in training? Find a way to move, within myself, and in relation to my partner which makes the attack is unsuccessful, maintain connection with my partner (whether they want me to or not), and maintain control of the situation (and hence, of them), usually by moving through their center.

My understanding is far from perfect, and my ability to describe and perform is even less so, but at the moment, I see this as my goal.

Gary David
02-26-2012, 09:24 PM
You may agree or disagree...or you could talk about and describe your experience as I did and as Carsten did.

Mary
Let me describe the experience I had yesterday visiting John Clodig, a friend in the San Diego area just talking, drinking coffee and working on aspects to relaxation. It is John approach only through total relaxation can the body work as one and truly accomplish the things that we in Aikido claim as our goals. He also said, and this is my experience also, that any unwanted tension in the body as you are moving voids the benefits of being relaxed,,,,,,requiring a muscular forcing of the outcome. While it may not be popular with some on this forum, this is what Dan has been saying also. The other common theme here is the time and work needed to get to the continuous relaxtion while moving and that you have to take the right approach or you will never get there.

As I had brought up aiki age John used that as the model. I grabbed his wrists, held them the first time in a tight grip, braced myself to hold him down...and the next moment his hands were at my chest and his body was end to me with his center under mine. I was popped back several feet landing on shift legs. The next few times I changed my grip, settled myself, tried the one body approach, kept my shoulders down, flexed my knees.....all the things we strive to do.........I still could not feel him move, his hands were at my chest and I was moved back. The difference in the results was I didn't go as far and I had a soft landing. Next I tried to used my intent, trying to mover in and around John with it,,,,,, He still moved and moved me back......the only difference from John's perspective was I was doing something that made me more stable, but it didn't change the results. He said that he does not react to resistance, hence he does not generate in tension in himself and just moves without concern for me. Of course with me I had a hell of a time even getting my hands up without him stopping me. Years of practice with the correct approach.....

John also say that mechanically the grip he uses either aids the relaxation or it sets up tension in uke and normally then results in nage adding tension somewhere in their body and forcing a muscular manipulation.........all of what he is doing is not about manipulation. He uses a soft grip that uke does not respond to until the destabilization is to far gone. John slide his hand down my arm softly and then moved it across my body..... I couldn't stop it even when I knew it was coming. If he squeezed even a little I reacted and he couldn't move me. This all slow. Done at speed I would react to the clamp grip, but could not to the soft grip. This is why I am on this path even at this time in my life.

As for the video of the Ki Aikido that Carsten linked....I was in Ki Society back in the '70 and we had instructors who demonstration of Aikido was exactly the same, waving hands and the like. To me it is no more effective today and it was then.......keeping in mind that none of these folks had the training that Tohei Sensei had......

Just go straight

Gary

RonRagusa
02-26-2012, 09:56 PM
It is John approach only through total relaxation can the body work as one and truly accomplish the things that we in Aikido claim as our goals. He also said, and this is my experience also, that any unwanted tension in the body as you are moving voids the benefits of being relaxed,,,,,,requiring a muscular forcing of the outcome. While it may not be popular with some on this forum, this is what Dan has been saying also. The other common theme here is the time and work needed to get to the continuous relaxtion while moving and that you have to take the right approach or you will never get there.

Hi Gary -

You have nicely summed up what is a core element in the Aikido Mary and I practice and teach.

As I had brought up aiki age John used that as the model. I grabbed his wrists, held them the first time in a tight grip, braced myself to hold him down...and the next moment his hands were at my chest and his body was end to me with his center under mine. I was popped back several feet landing on shift legs. The next few times I changed my grip, settled myself, tried the one body approach, kept my shoulders down, flexed my knees.....all the things we strive to do.........I still could not feel him move, his hands were at my chest and I was moved back. The difference in the results was I didn't go as far and I had a soft landing. Next I tried to used my intent, trying to mover in and around John with it,,,,,, He still moved and moved me back......the only difference from John's perspective was I was doing something that made me more stable, but it didn't change the results. He said that he does not react to resistance, hence he does not generate in tension in himself and just moves without concern for me. Of course with me I had a hell of a time even getting my hands up without him stopping me. Years of practice with the correct approach.....

Based on other posts of yours that I have read, and what you have posted above, I think you would find that what Mary and I practice on the mat is very similar to your experiences (especially the exercise you describe above). When Mary writes about uke sincerely following nage it's in reference to uke continuing the attack throughout the encounter, trying to keep his balance and continuing to pour energy into his attack; not blindly following along like a puppy on a leash.

Best,

Ron

robin_jet_alt
02-26-2012, 10:20 PM
When Mary writes about uke sincerely following nage it's in reference to uke continuing the attack throughout the encounter, trying to keep his balance and continuing to pour energy into his attack; not blindly following along like a puppy on a leash.

Best,

Ron

Now that is a different kettle of fish. I'm not sure I would call that "following" though.

RonRagusa
02-26-2012, 10:33 PM
Now that is a different kettle of fish. I'm not sure I would call that "following" though.

Hi Robin -

You can think of it as following through with the attack if that helps.

Best,

Ron

Carsten Möllering
02-27-2012, 04:30 AM
...continuing to pour energy into his attack ...
Thank you! According to my experience this names a crucial point.

I don't know what you understand as to continually pour energy into the attack. But it is a formula well known to me. I was taught this also years ago and I know a number of teachers who use this formula to describe good uke behaviour.

But in my context now and in the way I understand it, it describes a way of uke behavior I try to avoid. Because continually pouring energy into the attack leads to an aritificial behaviour of an attacker, that can only be found in aikidō as far as I see. Practicing with jūdōka or karateka immediatly shows the difference.

If the attack is over, it is over. Maybe a next one may follow. But a strike is simply a strike. A punch is simply a punch. And a grip is not made to pour out energy, but ot controll and fix uke. (Maybe by using energy but that's something different.)
We clearly learn, that yokomen uchi does not cut through like kesa giri, but ends at the head (level). Same with shomen uchi. Both attacks have a clear endpoint. We practice suburi (tai jutsu) very often.
If tori succeeds to connect to uke and take over everything is fine. But then uke doesn't have to worry what to do: He "is done" by tori. He does not need to care about pouring energy.

I don't know whether what you mean by "continuing to pour energy into his attack" is identicall with what is understood and practiced here by teachers who say so. I believe it is the same, because it makes great sense if aikidō is understood in a certain way. One part of this is understanding aiki mainly as blending with the outward movements of a partner. So to be able to do aiki you simply have to have such movement or at least the intention (>pouring out energy) of the partner.

So if I am right your formula again describes a clear difference between my pardigm of understanding the essence of the technical work of aikidō and yours/Marys.

In my context I know from experience that this is not only about words and phrases but leads to different ways of practice. When I began to see things different - and stopped to continually pour energy into my attack - my aikidō changed. I had to learn a lot of things completely new.

Ernesto Lemke
02-27-2012, 03:30 PM
Hello Carsten,

I think you nicely and adequatly described two almost polar opposite approaches' that both (plus everything in between) co-exist under the umbrella that is aikido.
Whether it is due to factionalism; the variety with which Ueshiba's teachings was interpreted; Ueshiba's inability/indifference/choice (take your pick) to transmit what he did the way he did, the fact is there are different sometimes contrasting views as to what aikido IS and this evidently also crosses over to the expectations for what constitutes ukemi.

I'm really hoping we can go over some of this when (if?) we meet in April. We seem to be much on the same page. As for the opposite view, it's a major reason I stopped attending aikido seminars...it's really a waste of my time. To each his own I suppose...

hughrbeyer
02-27-2012, 04:09 PM
So, Carsten, when did things change? Did you switch schools or what?

The only thing I take issue with in your last post is the reference to sword practice. My understanding is that with a sword also if the attack misses or is parried, it's over. You don't swing through, you don't continue the attack--you either get out of there, or change the attack to whatever makes sense given the new situation (which may, of course, include parrying the counter-strike). In other words, just about exactly what you said about empty-hand practice.

LinTal
02-28-2012, 12:30 AM
This is something which I am only just starting to see and explore, so thank you very much everyone for sharing!

I have one question; what (if anything) in the dynamic is affected if to the people training have differing perspectives?

robin_jet_alt
02-28-2012, 01:01 AM
This is something which I am only just starting to see and explore, so thank you very much everyone for sharing!

I have one question; what (if anything) in the dynamic is affected if to the people training have differing perspectives?

Well, there have been a few responses that I have found:

1. "why won't my technique work?"
2. "you are spoiling my technique. Don't do that. You are doing ukemi wrong!"
3. "ouch. you threw me. Don't do that again!"
4. "what was that? I want to learn that!"

Now I'm not saying that I have inspired all of those responses. I am not good enough to inspire number 4 very often. But, these are the sorts of responses I find from people from one perspective who train with experienced people from the other. Obviously, only number 4 leads to effective training.

Mary and Ron will probably give you the other side of the coin.

LinTal
02-28-2012, 01:15 AM
Well, there have been a few responses that I have found:

1. "why won't my technique work?"
2. "you are spoiling my technique. Don't do that. You are doing ukemi wrong!"
3. "ouch. you threw me. Don't do that again!"
4. "what was that? I want to learn that!"
.

I have a great fondness for #1. :D

robin_jet_alt
02-28-2012, 04:43 AM
I have a great fondness for #1. :D

I admit that I often find myself saying number 1 too :)

Carsten Möllering
02-28-2012, 06:16 AM
So, Carsten, when did things change? Did you switch schools or what?
I think most of it had been there all the time, but I (... my then teacher ...) didn't realize what it really was.
Some years ago I left my first teacher for different reasons. The new teacher I chose, had practiced with Yamaguchi sensei and was a student of Sugino Yoshio (and is student of his son now). Things began to change. And what had been there, but had been hidden and was not really understood by my first teacher, could unfold now.

But the major change happened when I began to try to follow Endo sensei (like also my teacher does). My thinking, that aikidō has to become something internal, met his working on atari, musubi, body structure. And his speaking in Daoist terms suddenly oppenend up a new understanding of things.

But until now I can fine talk about it. But really performing it is very very poor.

@ Ernesto:
I think you migth understand why I'm looking forward to April so eager that I even delayed my "family duties".

The only thing I take issue with in your last post is the reference to sword practice.I'm not aware I wrote about sword practice?

My understanding is that with a sword also if the attack misses or is parried, it's over. ... just about exactly what you said about empty-hand practice.This is my understanding too.

RonRagusa
02-28-2012, 09:02 AM
1. "why won't my technique work?"
2. "you are spoiling my technique. Don't do that. You are doing ukemi wrong!"
3. "ouch. you threw me. Don't do that again!"
4. "what was that? I want to learn that!"

Mary and Ron will probably give you the other side of the coin.

The other side of that coin:

"?krow euqinhcet ym t'now yhw .1
"!gnorw imeku gniod era uoY .that od t'noD . euqinhcet ym gniliops era ouy" .2
"!niaga taht od t'noD .em wreht uoy .hcuo" .3
"!taht nrael ot tnaw I ?taht saw tahw" .4

:)

Ron

robin_jet_alt
02-28-2012, 02:39 PM
The other side of that coin:

"?krow euqinhcet ym t'now yhw .1
"!gnorw imeku gniod era uoY .that od t'noD . euqinhcet ym gniliops era ouy" .2
"!niaga taht od t'noD .em wreht uoy .hcuo" .3
"!taht nrael ot tnaw I ?taht saw tahw" .4

:)

Ron

Wow. Writing that out takes dedication. I take my hat off to you. :)

hughrbeyer
02-28-2012, 03:14 PM
Hah. It all goes back to Yamaguchi. He was Endo's teacher too, wasn't he?

You didn't mention sword explicitly, but you did mention kesa giri and that was enough for me. :)

DH
02-28-2012, 04:11 PM
People say all sorts of things about their practice. What is clear-abundantly clear- rom watching thousands of video and training with thousands of people is that for many, what they say and what they think they are doing is not the same with what they actually do. And in my experience...they don't even know how or why.
It's that bad out there. Its like talking physics to people learning math.

If someone can find me enough video-say only 10% of the available videos out there where uke
DOES NOT CHANGE HIS BODY AFTER ATTACKING...TO A COMPLIANT, RECEIVING, BODY I will discuss changing my overall assessment. Until then all I have to say is what most people describe as nage/ uke movement is not even close to uke "continuing their attack." It's not even an attack much less continuing. Therefore as several continue to point out just here in the above posts, and in other threads...what they are doing is not a martial art. It's something different.
a. I am not picking out any one person or method
b. I am not even thinking just aikido-this voluntary collapsing and receiving is infecting dojo's everywhere and some one has convinced ya'll it's a good thing to do.
c. It is not Martial and it is not Budo, it's something different. That's okay, but we can't just claim to know martial arts or budo without the cost. And there are plenty of real budo people who can demonstrate that lesson...and that right quick!
In the 21st century, we need to do better or the TMA won't last.
Dan

DH
02-28-2012, 04:42 PM
I remember this debate taking place in the editorial/feedback pages of Aikido Today magazine when they were publishing and hosting these "movement seminars" and the readership rebelled to the point that Susan said she would no longer publish these letters to the Editor complaining that aikido was a martial art and that stuff was nonsensical as a budo.
Then the magazine died.
Luckily Stan over at Aikido Journal was open to all voices.
Again though, this stuff (I think it comes from Western Suburbanites) is starting to infiltrate budo everywhere. How many people in budo today know how or ever consistently train to handle a skilled and sustained attack by a trained person....wait...outside of their dojo?
If your goal is martial arts, then Uke/nage training requires serious thought to make it useful and real in a martial context... and it can be trainefd that way!
Dan

graham christian
02-29-2012, 02:55 AM
Nage earnestly leads. Uke sincerely follows. As nage outlines the path, a void is left for uke to fill. The motion and connection created is Aikido.

Uke grabs and holds tightly to nage's arm with both hands, katate tori ryote moche, offering energy for nage to perceive, move with and eventually throw uke. Listening to, really paying attention to, and honoring uke the earnest nage restores order. The throw is the by product. Often the throw is perceived as the goal. Instead the goal is the feeling of connection and harmony. The throw is the result of the connection and uke's loss of balance.

Attention. Acceptance. Gratitude.

I like the way this is put. Emphasis on the middle rather than the end.

Perceive, move with.

As a golden rule we say there is no against in Aikido.

So we practice too perceiving and moving with and it is this that brings up the other questions and thus discovery of the other principles involved in Aikido. Ie: Move where? Do what with the opposing energy? Relationship to space? etc. etc.

Then through practice we find we hit plateaus, times where it doesn't matter who it is or what they are doing, hard or soft, fast or slow. These plateaus can also be different and thus new lessons are learned. For example when practicing one point over and over and over again I came to a point one day where I invited anyone to attack in any way they please and then on to multiple and nothing made any difference, it was all easy and it was all one point. This is going back a bit to when I was with my old teacher, but nonetheless it is an example of a plateau. Another time would be where the same happens and yet this time to you it all just a flow, yet another plateau.

So each plateau to me is a step taken gained through much practice. On the journey thus is much learned and a greater understanding of Aikido.

As we move off of those plateaus towards the next one we bump into more comlexities which through more training and good guidance we come to the next plateau and thus the next simplicity.

So overall, bit by bit it gets simpler and the definition of Aikido gets simpler too.

Finally we may say we know harmony and love and the way.

A brief description of 'how we roll' ha, ha.

Regards G.

Mary Eastland
02-29-2012, 10:30 AM
The snowy woods are very quiet...it reminds me of the moment when uke whispers to nage "go this way."

Mark Gibbons
02-29-2012, 01:20 PM
The snowy woods are very quiet...it reminds me of the moment when uke whispers to nage "go this way."

One reason I rarely post is that I like the quote above, but it only makes sense to me if instead nage whispers to uke. So I assume I'm an ignorant barbarian that just doesn't get it.

Thanks,
Mark

lbb
02-29-2012, 01:26 PM
One reason I rarely post is that I like the quote above, but it only makes sense to me if instead nage whispers to uke.

When nage whispers to uke, or vice versa, I think it's time for the pair of 'em to get a room.

Mary Eastland
02-29-2012, 02:36 PM
The whisper is when I perceive from my center the very subtle direction the grab is going...I feel it because in the silence I am paying attention. The stillness of the snowy woods has the same silent intensity.

Whisper is a metaphor....

Gary David
02-29-2012, 02:56 PM
Nage earnestly leads. Uke sincerely follows. As nage outlines the path, a void is left for uke to fill. The motion and connection created is Aikido.

Mary
First let me say that you write beautiful poetry.......... having said that how does the 'what' that was first said above line up with what you last said below? If you are leading are you hearing but an echo of your lead?

The whisper is when I perceive from my center the very subtle direction the grab is going...I feel it because in the silence I am paying attention. The stillness of the snowy woods has the same silent intensity.

Whisper is a metaphor....

just so

Gary

Mary Eastland
02-29-2012, 03:41 PM
Leading or following are the same when the centers connect in the stillness.

Gary David
02-29-2012, 03:58 PM
Leading or following are the same when the centers connect in the stillness.

Mary
I think I understand where you want to go.......I would offer that if your center is connected to the others and you are the mover then no hints or whispers are needed as you move as one, only if there is a disconnect would you need the followup of hints and whispers to allow corrections to the connection.

And the ultimate goal here is to move in such a relaxed manner that added resistance/tension applied by the uke have no meaning to path/outcome. The problem that arises is that if you actually feel/sense whispers/hints you are likely to establish within yourself tensions that affect your relaxation/whole body....adding in elements of muscular activity to your movement........

Gary

Mary Eastland
02-29-2012, 05:27 PM
feeling the movement before the movement.....

Gary David
02-29-2012, 07:07 PM
feeling the movement before the movement.....

Wow sen sen no sen ........ I defer to you.... your understand and skill far exceed mine.......

gary

Alberto_Italiano
03-01-2012, 01:15 AM
Uke sincerely follows.

Uke grabs and holds tightly.

Very well said.

ps ok, well... what if he does not? What's plan B?

kewms
03-01-2012, 02:08 AM
Very well said.

ps ok, well... what if he does not? What's plan B?

If uke has a choice, you're doing it wrong.

Katherine

kewms
03-01-2012, 02:09 AM
The whisper is when I perceive from my center the very subtle direction the grab is going...I feel it because in the silence I am paying attention. The stillness of the snowy woods has the same silent intensity.

Whisper is a metaphor....

As Kevin Choate Sensei has said: listen, and uke will tell you how he wants to be thrown.

Katherine

Carsten Möllering
03-01-2012, 02:11 AM
Endo Seishiro:
"Uke will inform you of such things."

Alberto_Italiano
03-01-2012, 04:17 AM
If uke has a choice, you're doing it wrong.

Katherine

Yes, I understand. In a perfect world, ukes have no choices, hold our wrists diligentely and never let them go as we move (or if we move, we are invariably endowed of a speed that ukes are not endowed with) and we beat them around at our will.

In the perfect fight, in the prefect tempest, uke has no choice. If uke stands a choice I am doing it wrong.

It is indeed regrettable that I am such a poor aikidoka that my ukes invariably have a variety of choices, unless I instruct them how not to have one.
I wish one day I can become so clever to be able to leave any uke whatsoever without even once single chance. I will keep training hard, hoping one day I will attain this amazing level of fighting capabilities, and be able to defeat anyone leaving them without even one single chance.

This aikido is amazing. Does not exist one single Martial Art where ukes have no choices, there is always a fight, always a struggle, always mutual opportunities. But with Aikido, we can attain that level where uke has no less than no choice.
Indeed, Aikido is beyond comparison. If you learn it porpperly, your foes will stand no choice ever.

I will redouble my efforts. I want to become like that. I will not succeed, but at least I know that it will be uniquely my fault, because Aiklido can serve you with such dishes: unbeatable.

Alberto_Italiano
03-01-2012, 04:19 AM
Endo Seishiro:
"Uke will inform you of such things."

Boxing Manuals (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/telegraph+punches), page 1:
"Don't telegraph your punches, kid!"

Carsten Möllering
03-01-2012, 04:45 AM
Boxing Manuals (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/telegraph+punches), page 1:
"Don't telegraph your punches, kid!"
We're talking about different things.

Kevin Leavitt
03-01-2012, 07:06 AM
At some level, uke always has a choice. Read VIktor Frankl's writings. What I get out of it is at some level we can make a choice. In many instances uke may not physically be able to do anything to change the situation, but if his mind has not been captured, he still has the choice to resist in some fashion. Intent matters!

morph4me
03-01-2012, 07:35 AM
Yes, I understand. In a perfect world, ukes have no choices, hold our wrists diligentely and never let them go as we move (or if we move, we are invariably endowed of a speed that ukes are not endowed with) and we beat them around at our will.

In the perfect fight, in the prefect tempest, uke has no choice. If uke stands a choice I am doing it wrong.

It is indeed regrettable that I am such a poor aikidoka that my ukes invariably have a variety of choices, unless I instruct them how not to have one.
I wish one day I can become so clever to be able to leave any uke whatsoever without even once single chance. I will keep training hard, hoping one day I will attain this amazing level of fighting capabilities, and be able to defeat anyone leaving them without even one single chance.

This aikido is amazing. Does not exist one single Martial Art where ukes have no choices, there is always a fight, always a struggle, always mutual opportunities. But with Aikido, we can attain that level where uke has no less than no choice.
Indeed, Aikido is beyond comparison. If you learn it porpperly, your foes will stand no choice ever.

I will redouble my efforts. I want to become like that. I will not succeed, but at least I know that it will be uniquely my fault, because Aiklido can serve you with such dishes: unbeatable.

It's not a matter of uke not having a choice. It's more a matter of any choice he has will be wrong. It's giving them the choice of frying pan or fire.

Gary David
03-01-2012, 08:06 AM
Folks my last comment here........

In doing this art when centers are connected then one of the two parties involved will be in a destabilized or out of balance condition on their way to a fall, a pin, or something like that. If both parties are stable in their movement then ii is dance. When one the parties destabilizes themselves by double weighting to their attacking side or places their center outside of their base by choice or as a purposeful part of their attack they are giving themselves away. Up tempo dance.

just go straight

Gary

Mary Eastland
03-01-2012, 10:32 AM
My written description in the original post was about how the stillness of the woods reminded me of a particular exercise that I do. It is an awareness and perception exercise, not to be confused with real attacks.

Here is the exercise: Uke grabs both nage's wrists and holds with no agenda...just holds. Nage, by paying attention to their own center and the center of the connection between uke and nage can tell what way uke is moving and move in that direction themselves. If nage feels any of uke's resistance it is because nage has moved in a direction that uke is not moving in. Even though uke seems to be still, a direction can be perceived by nage if nage is patient and attentive.

Doing this excercise with the intention of developing a strong centered feeling creates a peacefulness in me that reminds me of the stillness of the snowy woods.

Gary David
03-01-2012, 03:53 PM
My written description in the original post was about how the stillness of the woods reminded me of a particular exercise that I do. It is an awareness and perception exercise, not to be confused with real attacks.

Here is the exercise: Uke grabs both nage's wrists and holds with no agenda...just holds. Nage, by paying attention to their own center and the center of the connection between uke and nage can tell what way uke is moving and move in that direction themselves. If nage feels any of uke's resistance it is because nage has moved in a direction that uke is not moving in. Even though uke seems to be still, a direction can be perceived by nage if nage is patient and attentive.

Doing this excercise with the intention of developing a strong centered feeling creates a peacefulness in me that reminds me of the stillness of the snowy woods.

Mary
I am good with this. Do you have an exercise that works from your side as nage....moving without uke perceiving the movement, moving with intention like water around the grab?
Thanks
Gary

robin_jet_alt
03-01-2012, 05:55 PM
It's not a matter of uke not having a choice. It's more a matter of any choice he has will be wrong. It's giving them the choice of frying pan or fire.

I like this analysis.

Mary Eastland
03-01-2012, 08:28 PM
Mary
I am good with this. Do you have an exercise that works from your side as nage....moving without uke perceiving the movement, moving with intention like water around the grab?
Thanks
Gary

Exactly...that happens when nage moves into uke's movement and uke loses balance. It is the same exercise.

RonRagusa
03-01-2012, 10:54 PM
Writing about leading and following is a challenge since they have to be referred to separately, when in fact they occur simultaneously, no matter which side of the equation you're on.

Ron

graham christian
03-02-2012, 04:52 PM
Writing about leading and following is a challenge since they have to be referred to separately, when in fact they occur simultaneously, no matter which side of the equation you're on.

Ron

I am both led and I follow you. Nicely put.

Peace.G.

phitruong
03-02-2012, 05:43 PM
ps ok, well... what if he does not? What's plan B?

Plan B isn't available over-the-counter so stick with Plan A and tell him he needs protection or no Plan at all! :)

phitruong
03-02-2012, 05:47 PM
As Kevin Choate Sensei has said: listen, and uke will tell you how he wants to be thrown.


what if you have hearing problem and uke was mumbling? would you just go ahead and throw uke however way you please anyway? what if you use the loud air horn thingy right before you throw uke, would that still fit the goal? :D

Gary David
03-03-2012, 11:17 AM
Writing about leading and following is a challenge since they have to be referred to separately, when in fact they occur simultaneously, no matter which side of the equation you're on.

Ron

Ron
How do you folks practice, how do you structure your practice, to handle folks who will not follow? How do you make two centers one that the other person will not deliver or give it to you? One has to work at acquiring the other center to the result of lead/follow as one....which is not really lead follow, but rather the other being part of the one that is you moving as you move. Once centers are one and your is the mover, your movement is without regard to the other. Leading and following seems to be preliminary practice, which doesn't work without the other giving you more of themselves than they keep. Moving against folks who are contained within themselves and move as you move without giving you their center.......how do you practice acquiring the other center so you can move without regard to any resistance?
Thanks
Gary

RonRagusa
03-03-2012, 02:03 PM
How do you folks practice, how do you structure your practice, to handle folks who will not follow?

Hi Gary -

Let's say we are practicing shomen uchi kokyu nage. Uke strikes, slipping the blow I enter outside his striking hand and move to his hind quarter on that side. We are now facing roughly the same direction with me slightly behind him. Now if uke just stands there waiting for me to do something I might just walk away, give him a "Jethro slap" on the back of his head or execute a technique. No leading/following is involved and this is not the manner in which we practice.

Uke, finding himself in a compromised position has a responsibility to come and find me to continue with his attack. As he moves he begins to follow where I have gone, but because I am not trying to "control" him his movements will not necessarily follow a predefined path. So while I have led him to move by virtue of having evaded his strike, he is leading me since I will now move so as to avoid a non-tangential intersection of our paths. The actual technique will appear as a result of our combined motions. The continuous cycle of simultaneous leading/following by both partners characterizes our practice.

Our practice is dynamic in that it's not of the "hit (grab), stop, wait" variety. Hits (grabs) evaded or otherwise thwarted necessitate continued efforts by uke to press the attack.

This is from my blog:

"We practice in a cooperative training environment. When I train with a partner we enter into an agreement to abide by the structure of the exercise in order that we may both derive the benefits afforded us by the practice. The agreement is simple.

If we are practicing say, shomen uchi kokyu nage, I as uke agree to attack with a shomen strike and not a yokomen strike or katate tori. I agree to attack and, when nage moves, follow in order to continue attacking. As uke I agree to attack without foresight, that is, to attack where nage is and not where I know he's going to be. When practicing static grabs I agree to regulate the power of my attack and operate within nage's ability to receive and deal with that power, regardless of nage's rank.

If I'm not thrown I don't fall. If my balance isn't compromised I keep it. If nage leaves openings I do not ignore them.

As nage I agree to regulate the power of my technique and operate within uke's ability to take ukemi, regardless of uke's rank. I agree to execute the technique we are practicing. I agree to move without foresight, to present a tangible target for uke's strike or grab. I agree to respect the energy uke is putting into the attack and treat the attack with the same seriousness as I would if there was real ill intent behind it.

If I don't follow through on my throw I expect uke not to fall. If I don't disturb uke's balance I expect him to keep it. If I leave openings I expect them to be exploited."

How do you make two centers one that the other person will not deliver or give it to you?

I never expect the gift of another person's center being willingly given to me. Nor do I look to take (read control) his center. I'm looking for connection. We make these kinds of connections every day although we may not be aware of the occurrences until later, upon reflection. For instance, you and I are forming a connection here on AikiWeb. Although our interaction is both geographically and temporally separated we are nevertheless entangled. Have you never made eye contact with another person across a room and felt it go right to your core? Have you felt the connection with your uke on those occasions when you executed that effortless technique that seemed to rise from nowhere? The point is that I can connect with uke independently of his willingness/unwillingness to connect with me.

Leading and following seems to be preliminary practice, which doesn't work without the other giving you more of themselves than they keep.

Let go of the idea that leading and following are separate processes.

Moving against folks who are contained within themselves and move as you move without giving you their center.......how do you practice acquiring the other center so you can move without regard to any resistance?

In my practice I don't move against uke and I'm not interested in acquiring uke's center, just connecting with it.

Best,

Ron

Mary Eastland
03-03-2012, 05:29 PM
Ron
How do you folks practice, how do you structure your practice, to handle folks who will not follow? How do you make two centers one that the other person will not deliver or give it to you? One has to work at acquiring the other center to the result of lead/follow as one....which is not really lead follow, but rather the other being part of the one that is you moving as you move. Once centers are one and your is the mover, your movement is without regard to the other. Leading and following seems to be preliminary practice, which doesn't work without the other giving you more of themselves than they keep. Moving against folks who are contained within themselves and move as you move without giving you their center.......how do you practice acquiring the other center so you can move without regard to any resistance?
Thanks
Gary

Hi Gary:

I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

If uke does not follow, nage must relax more, extend more and lead more to make up for what uke is not providing.

Two centers become one though the process, we don't make it happen. We let Aikido happen.
I always regard uke when I am nage...it is my job to take care of uke.

When I feel uke's resistance, I again, relax more, blend more and give what uke lacks.

Gary David
03-03-2012, 08:53 PM
Hi Gary:

I just wanted to add my 2 cents.

If uke does not follow, nage must relax more, extend more and lead more to make up for what uke is not providing.

Two centers become one though the process, we don't make it happen. We let Aikido happen.
I always regard uke when I am nage...it is my job to take care of uke.

When I feel uke's resistance, I again, relax more, blend more and give what uke lacks.

Mary
Thank you and Ron for explaining your approach, it is one I have touched on several times in my journey and was similar to the standard approach taken by the Tohei based organization we belonged to back in the day. I will have to say it was not exactly the primary approach used in our dojo.

My current view is find the attackers center, take it and then do something with it. What I am striving for now....using your original exercise with uke grabbing both wrists would be to move in using aiki age, the move so clean that uke does't feel it and is destabilized before even knowing it has happened. I have to relax and relax some more before even moving....there should not be a sense of any resistance beyond awareness. If I have to relax some more after registering resistance....then I have added tension to my own movements......maybe losing the others center or moving into a muscular resolution. anyway that is were I am trying to go. This has been done to me so I know it can happen...making it so is the hard part.

Have fun

Gary