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Michael Varin
10-23-2011, 01:02 AM
This is an interesting and important topic, and has been brought up more frequently in recent threads.

I have only rudimentary Japanese language skills, so I will have to ask those of you here who have a deep understanding of the language and culture to contribute to this thread. Peter Goldsbury, Josh Reyer, and Chris Li come to mind, but anyone can pitch in.

I have always instinctively felt that John Stevens' translations left something to be desired. Of course, this is not to say that they have no value at all.

We may also have the benefit here of the translators being able to share how they arrived at their translation, or what they found lacking in the older translations.

I hope that we can all use this thread to compile these translations, so we can avoid the often tedious process of referring to and then searching for long lost threads, and then have a place to discuss them, compare them to older translations, and hopefully, come to a better understanding.

Here are a few translations that I didn't have to dig too deep to find, presented in no particular order, and with no regard to format (maybe something consistent will develop) or who made the translation (sorry):

「私の武産の合気は、宗教から出て来たのかというとそうではない。真の武産から宗教を照らすのです。未完の宗教を完成へと導く案内であります」
"It would not be correct to say that my Takumusu Aiki emerged from religion. True budo illuminates religion. It guides incomplete religion to completion."

「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」
"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces
Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force

右手をば陽にあらわし左手は陰にかえして相手みちびけ
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."

(Old Translation)
"Manifest yang in your right hand, balance it with the yin of your left, and guide your partner."

<念>にもとづき『気の妙用』をはかるには、まず五体の左は武の基礎、右は宇宙の受ける気結びの現われる土台であると心得よ。この左・右の気結びがおのずから 成就すれば、 あとの動きは自由自在となる。
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."

Chris Li
10-23-2011, 01:55 AM
Actually, I think that all of the one's that you posted are mine. There are lot more on the private Sangenkai forums, but most of them seem to be coming out over time (that's fine). They're not all that polished, and fairly random - mostly done piecemeal as I come across something that's interesting (to me, at least).

Some of them are quite startling, in terms of what is laid out and how clear it is in the correct context. In other words, it's not just the translations themselves, a certain amount of background knowledge (outside of conventional Aikido knowledge) is really necessary to appreciate what's being talked about. That's probably a large part of the original problem.

Best,

Chris

Alec Corper
10-23-2011, 05:04 AM
Hello Chris,
Much appreciation for the translation work you are doing. Dan quoted from you several times during his seminar here in Holland. I have a question for you, you mention the Hachikiri, the eight forces. Have you made any comparison between these and the eight forces of Chen style Tai Chi. They sound very similar. Since some of the language Dan is currently using has striking similarities to the Chinese underpinning of IP development I wondered again at the Chinese connection in Ueshiba"s in yo ho.
Regards, Alec

MM
10-23-2011, 07:00 AM
「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」
"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces
Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force.
===========

Above requoted from first post.

So, if we look at those eight forces, aka Hachiriki (hachi being eight in japanese), does anyone notice what they all have in common?

Active/Quiet, Pulling/Loosening, Splitting/Combining, Melting/Congealing

What is yin/yang, or as Ueshiba learned it in/yo? Opposites.

Hachiriki, the opposing forces of in/yo -- which is redundant really. in/yo is defined as opposing forces.

Alec Corper
10-23-2011, 08:01 AM
Thanks Mark,
I had indeed noticed the opposite pairings. What I was curious about was wether, within the further translations, these pairings gain significance as primary manifestations, in a martial sense, of Aiki expressed through the body. In Chinese IP there are 4 primary directions of energy flow and four primary functions, each functions containing at least 2 pf the primary directions. In Chen Tai Chi silk reeling, the training of internal spirals flows through these directions and functions. Why did Ueshiba pick these descriptions specifically? Or could a whole lot of other descriptive combinations of opposites be named?
I apologize for my failing memory but somewhere in the creation myths of Japan is reference to the sword of ice and the sword of fire, two more descriptions of opposite powers. I believe Ueshiba quoted these as well but I believe Chris will have the source far better than I do. If Aiki is the unified state which remains inside the body, is it's manifestation the polar compliment of the type of force the opponent brings to bear?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-23-2011, 09:58 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=R1p5Q6l3iuQC&lpg=PA25&hl=es&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q&f=false

Worth reading, imo.

MM
10-23-2011, 10:21 AM
Thanks Mark,
I had indeed noticed the opposite pairings. What I was curious about was wether, within the further translations, these pairings gain significance as primary manifestations, in a martial sense, of Aiki expressed through the body. In Chinese IP there are 4 primary directions of energy flow and four primary functions, each functions containing at least 2 pf the primary directions. In Chen Tai Chi silk reeling, the training of internal spirals flows through these directions and functions. Why did Ueshiba pick these descriptions specifically? Or could a whole lot of other descriptive combinations of opposites be named?
I apologize for my failing memory but somewhere in the creation myths of Japan is reference to the sword of ice and the sword of fire, two more descriptions of opposite powers. I believe Ueshiba quoted these as well but I believe Chris will have the source far better than I do. If Aiki is the unified state which remains inside the body, is it's manifestation the polar compliment of the type of force the opponent brings to bear?

Sorry that I can't help with the Chinese side of things. I don't have much background in them. However, I put part of your post in bold and underline to reference it. The answer is no. Think of aiki as you all ways being centrally held amidst infinite spirals of opposing forces. External forces are not part of creating that. IP/Aiki = you. Always. All ways.

I loved Dan's analogy of a washing machine motor/agitator. Inside a washing machine, you typically have a central device that has spiraling fins. When the motor runs, it turns that central piece one way, then back the other way. Now, picture having a bar welded onto the top of that piece so that it sticks outwards (middle of bar is welded to top of agitator piece). When the motor turns, one arm goes forward, one arm goes backwards. Grab either or both arms and you are moved by the motor.

Now, replace the motor with a 500 hp engine. When it turns, wham, it's quick and decisive. It turns back the other way in an instant, too. So, if you push or pull or grab that bar, does the engine care? Does the engine have to add polar complimentary force to function? No. Whether you grab the bar with the motor and it just moves you or you grab the bar with the engine and it rips your arms off, the entire functioning system does not really care how you grab, push, or pull. :D

phitruong
10-23-2011, 08:22 PM
"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces
Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force"

I have been wondering if this is in someway related to taichi's peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao? wonder if there are answer(s) to such question?

Chris Li
10-24-2011, 01:40 AM
"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces
Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force"

I have been wondering if this is in someway related to taichi's peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao? wonder if there are answer(s) to such question?

In Japanese: 動、静、引、弛、凝、解、分、合

I know little about Chinese, but from what I can gather on Google (and from what little I know of Tai Chi), Tai Chi uses different characters that are more technically related. It may well be that there are some close linkages.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
10-24-2011, 01:51 AM
A quick comment - it's not just the translations, but what sections have or haven't been translated.

There's a massive amount of technical material and hints throughout Ueshiba's writings. A lot of it is just hard to understand without the right context and was skipped or misunderstood.

This led to a tendency to focus on the "budo is love" passages and ignore the other ones that didn't make as much sense.

To be fair, of couse, "budo is love" passages are also quite common, but I think that there is much more to be found than most people realize.

Best,

Chris

Michael Varin
10-24-2011, 04:44 AM
http://books.google.com/books?id=R1p5Q6l3iuQC&lpg=PA25&hl=es&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q&f=false

Worth reading, imo.

Demetrio,

Thank you very much for the link.

Definitely worth reading.

Michael Varin
10-24-2011, 04:48 AM
「一霊四魂三元八力や呼吸、合気の理解なくして合気道を稽古しても合気道の本当の力は出てこないだろう。」
"I think that if you cannot understand Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, breath (kokyu) and Aiki, then even if you practice Aikido the true power of Aikido will not come forth."
Chris states that Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as physical forces
Active force, quiet force, Pulling force, loosening force, splitting force, combining force, melting force, congealing force.
===========

Above requoted from first post.

So, if we look at those eight forces, aka Hachiriki (hachi being eight in japanese), does anyone notice what they all have in common?

Active/Quiet, Pulling/Loosening, Splitting/Combining, Melting/Congealing

What is yin/yang, or as Ueshiba learned it in/yo? Opposites.

Hachiriki, the opposing forces of in/yo -- which is redundant really. in/yo is defined as opposing forces.

Absolutely. I noticed the same thing.

Does anyone notice that Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki, Kokyu, and Aiki are listed?

This suggests that Ueshiba drew distinctions between them, i.e. they are not the same thing.

DH
10-25-2011, 12:49 PM
This is an interesting and important topic, and has been brought up more frequently in recent threads.

I have only rudimentary Japanese language skills, so I will have to ask those of you here who have a deep understanding of the language and culture to contribute to this thread. Peter Goldsbury, Josh Reyer, and Chris Li come to mind, but anyone can pitch in.

I have always instinctively felt that John Stevens' translations left something to be desired. Of course, this is not to say that they have no value at all.

We may also have the benefit here of the translators being able to share how they arrived at their translation, or what they found lacking in the older translations.

I hope that we can all use this thread to compile these translations, so we can avoid the often tedious process of referring to and then searching for long lost threads, and then have a place to discuss them, compare them to older translations, and hopefully, come to a better understanding.


I am glad you realize the importance of correct translation
Whether this make sense to you or not...your welcome.
It has been rather an interesting 16 years; knowing what I know, seeing what I see in his movement and where it came from, talking about this stuff on the various forums and being told I was the one who didn't know what he was talking about. Years discussing the fact that Aikido is dual opposing spiral energy, aiki in yo ho, six directions, etc, and actually being laughed at here and elsewhere for stating what it was and that it is just about gone.

These new translations were a gift to me from Chris. I was floored when Chris read them in public for the first time and to hear my words as Ueshiba's own...(which have never been revealed in English) being read to me. Ueshiba's own words, sounding like he....was quoting me..... all these years.
We all had a grand laugh and I almost got emotional. All these years of arguing, and there they were all along; lying there in plain sight- much like all of Arikawa's books....locked up and left in the dust at Hombu.
They didn't know... and they didn't even know they should care. As Doshu told his friend a shihan now training this way "I can never do that...they would kill me. I have to do what my father did." So very sad.

I felt much the same about Sagawa's book. I had been shown and told certain things that I found alarming and all but unbelievable. I spent considerable money to get an early translation of that long before the book was published in English (something which Sagawa NEVER wanted to happen for now obvious reasons).
Only to find out everything I had been told and then had had been writing and saying on the forums for years; Never teach white people, Only teach one or two of your own, It is about body conditioning and not waza, Aiki is the union of opposites in you through -in yo ho and not about you and them...was proved to be absolutely spot on as well.

So here is another prediction for you.
As was demonstrated here (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19947&page=3&highlight=kamae) starting at page three, it is a mistake to think that being able to read Japanese makes you capable of translating everything written in Japanese. In fact it was that type of thinking that led to the incredibly erroneous understandings you are hoping to correct. Further, if you had someone capable of understanding the terminology he was using as a well known training concept, it still would not help the vast majority of Aikido-ka reading, as they would not have a single clue how to make use of it.
And last...you can take your list of potential translators. They are not only NOT going to help, they will only muddy the waters and deny all clarity. They have no idea of a) what to look for b) what the hell the words actually mean in the broader scope of internal training that Ueshiba Morihei was pursuing and will debate the well known phrases and training concepts as if they were alien words randomly strung together that they...need to ponder and wonder about in order to establish the text. I would suggest leaving them to spend a few years educating themselves...as we move forward in agreement with the worlds internal artists; to whom the phrases and words and concepts are well known and rather mundane and would probably find laughable to debate.
It's okay not to know phrases. I didn't know certain Chinese phrases for similar concepts/ words in the TJMA. But you should recognize the concepts ad be able to communicate to other budo people. Something the early students of Aikido could not or would not do.
It is also okay not to know the lingo, but when tested by real experts be able to demonstrate competency. Something which aikido-ka fail at regularly.

This is only going to be important and remain important, when the community embraces that it was not taught these concepts, (as Chiba and Stevens admit..we didn't have a clue what he was talking about) and cannot demonstrate competency in them either. This step is crucial to moving forward.
Telling people to "Move their insides..." and leaving them to struggle, will no longer suffice. Established teachers are going to be increasingly pressured to teach or people will go elsewhere to learn.

So, regarding the translations....
I would suggest leaving the work to just a few people who are both professional translators and who are training internals with people who know what the hell they are doing. There are not an abundance of those around these parts and not one of them they are learning from are in Aikido.
Yet...if you ask them they will deny all definitions the aikido community is trying to force down their throats.
They will tell you flat out, that this...is...aikido; through and through.
And as it turns out; is the exact definition almost word for word, that I have been telling you aikido is and always was for 16 years. Now coming from the mouth of your founder. It never could have been otherwise. It was so obvious in his movement and in his pedigree.
It's a new day.
I am working on a Book, to not only reveal these translations, but to place them in context to the Chinese teachings, demonstrating they were never O sensei's to begin with some are pure Daito ryu, some are Chinese, (some of his Doka are almost word for word copies of Chinese teachings) and then discuss how to practice them.
Cheers
Dan
P.S. I am well aware of others who have been discussing some of this as well. But considering the animosity often demonstrated, I am keeing the discussion to only what I have been saying.

phitruong
10-26-2011, 08:58 AM
I am working on a Book, to not only reveal these translations, but to place them in context to the Chinese teachings, demonstrating they were never O sensei's to begin with some are pure Daito ryu, some are Chinese, (some of his Doka are almost word for word copies of Chinese teachings) and then discuss how to practice them.
.

what will be the title of the book? and when you plan to publish/make available? is there a pre-order? if it's your autobiography, then i don't want to read it, because who would want to read about partying stuffs. i can do review and write stuffs like "what a waste of time!" or "he doesn't know what he's talking about!" "there is not suppose to be aiki on aikido and we like it that way!" :D

Marc Abrams
10-26-2011, 09:12 AM
what will be the title of the book? and when you plan to publish/make available? is there a pre-order? if it's your autobiography, then i don't want to read it, because who would want to read about partying stuffs. i can do review and write stuffs like "what a waste of time!" or "he doesn't know what he's talking about!" "there is not suppose to be aiki on aikido and we like it that way!" :D

Phil:

Rumor has it that the title will be: "The Good News Is That You Suck!" :eek:

marc

Patrick Hutchinson
10-26-2011, 09:20 AM
"Double-Opposing Zipperheads"

phitruong
10-26-2011, 09:41 AM
Phil:

Rumor has it that the title will be: "The Good News Is That You Suck!" :eek:

marc

i would have thought the title be "Aiki In Yo Ho - The right way to do the Yin-Yang with love"
or "Meeting of the opposite In Yo Ho (non-rated and contain mature contents)"

Mary Eastland
10-26-2011, 03:31 PM
It seems like you guys say "you suck" alot . Is that part of the training?

Marc Abrams
10-26-2011, 03:49 PM
It seems like you guys say "you suck" alot . Is that part of the training?

How can we ever expect to improve unless we acknowledge that we suck a lot? Sincere training should always involved checking your ego in at the door so that you can openly embrace your inadequacies. Seems to me like people are too insecure to admit that they simply suck at certain things. It if far easier and politically correct to play in the land of niceness, but far harder to progress. What ever happened to being happy with knowing that you suck in something? I have always used that as a POSITIVE impetus to improve.

That's the way I approach it, can't speak for others though....

Marc Abrams

DH
10-26-2011, 04:14 PM
It's all light hearted Mary. I say I suck as well.
I am experiencing something almost unique in the budo world, where I have Koryu, Aikido, Karate, Systema, BJJers and MMAers and ICMA teachers and students all in one room training under a nobody. So to keep everyone from getting factionalized and/or uppity and or embarrassed that they might have to "represent," I make everyone remember that we all suck. It's great to see an Aikido Shihan, next to a Karate 5th Dan, in between a ICMA teacher...and no one can do what we are working on. It actually helps each person feel like a kid at play again without any embarrassment that they may fail.
It's all good.
Dan

RonRagusa
10-26-2011, 04:36 PM
How can we ever expect to improve unless we acknowledge that we suck a lot?

Hi Marc -

Interesting. I don't suck. I'm very good at what I do. Nevertheless, I realize that I'll always have lots of room above the level that I'm currently at for improvement.

Sincere training should always involved checking your ego in at the door so that you can openly embrace your inadequacies.

So check your ego at the door but bring your anti-ego in with you? Would it not be preferable to check both at the door and approach training with a neutral mind-set unburdened by the baggage of judgement?

Seems to me like people are too insecure to admit that they simply suck at certain things.

From a psychological standpoint it seems to me that admitting there is always more to learn and discover is healthier than the self-deprecating "I suck at that" attitude.

It if far easier and politically correct to play in the land of niceness, but far harder to progress.

I don't see how political correctness has anything to do with it. We're talking about self image here.What's politically correct about not beating ones self over the head with all kinds of negative internal dialog?

Best,

Ron

Chris Li
10-26-2011, 04:45 PM
I don't see how political correctness has anything to do with it. We're talking about self image here.What's politically correct about not beating ones self over the head with all kinds of negative internal dialog?

Best,

Ron

When you're actually there, it's not negative at all. Also, pretty much everybody in the room does actually suck at what's being taught - if not, then no need to be there.

To follow up on what Dan mentioned - it is pretty unique, and it's enormously refreshing, to get out of the little budo boxes that most people put themselves in.

Best,

Chris

DH
10-26-2011, 04:54 PM
Hi Marc -We're talking about self image here. Would it not be preferable to check both at the door and approach training with a neutral mind-set unburdened by the baggage of judgement?
Interesting. I don't suck. I'm very good at what I do.

Best,
Ron
I moved your comments around for clarity
That's very judgmental.
Who told you you were very good at what you do?
Compared to whom?
How did you arrive at such a conclusion?
By it's very nature it is judgmental and places others who are not as good beneath you.....
Fainting from shock...splat!! :D :D ;)
Good grief, Ron lighten up.
Anyone with a brain can read and tell that we are all having fun. We don't reeaally tell people they suck!! Just that they suck!
Maybe I just don't attract the fainting violate types. These folks are a self selecting, confident, research mindset, type of profile. From young to old, women and men, we somehow managed not to think ill of each other and make friends...go figure!!
Dan
P.S. can we stay on topic please!!

Mary Eastland
10-26-2011, 05:10 PM
The topic is about language. How we talk is important. It doesn't have to be serious. I have read a lot of your people say "I suck," "we all suck."

When we use negative langauge we get negative results.

Just sayn" :)

phitruong
10-26-2011, 05:14 PM
It seems like you guys say "you suck" alot . Is that part of the training?

yup. it's to avoid negativity and awkwardness. it really is a complement. it's a guy thing. here is the logic (well, actually not, but it's a sort of beer logic). if you said you are good, then you don't have anything to learn so you don't need to be there. if you said you are aren't good and aren't bad, i.e. essentially neutral, then you sort of stay in place and no motivation to go anywhere or do anything about it. so if you said you suck, then essentially put yourself at the bottom which give you the incentive to climb up/out or whatever, i.e. have some place to go and something to do, i.e. you are in the right place to learn new stuffs.

remind me of a friend of mine. saw him the first time at aikido. some scruffy looking white guy walked into the dojo dressing room. he looked at me and started to tell off color jokes that would have offended every race, color, creed and animal kingdom. i looked back at him laugh out loud and started to tell redneck jokes. he looked back at me and laughed. we have been friend since. in asia, there is a fruit, rambutan, that looks ugly as hell, but inside it's very sweet and tasty. and an asian saying that translated to something along the line: what looks good might kill you.

mathewjgano
10-26-2011, 05:18 PM
I don't see how political correctness has anything to do with it. We're talking about self image here.What's politically correct about not beating ones self over the head with all kinds of negative internal dialog?
I think it has to do with semantics and context. Simply saying I suck doesnt seem any less healthy than saying I'm awesome. It depends on how it's balanced with the rest of the internal dialogue.

DH
10-26-2011, 05:18 PM
When we use negative langauge we get negative results.
Just sayn" :)
That's simply not true.
Read all of the seminar reports and you will see that there is a genuine warmth there and growing friendships.
I am VERY grateful that I have had/have teachers that poke fun at me, have called me a zero and yes...been very warm and supportive.
In open rooms I poke fun and reduce myself and poke fun at myself ...all...the time.
And Mary..I don't look at people in a straight face and actually tell them they suck!!!
Standing holding up Joke sign...J-O-K-E!
Oh my God, are you people reaally this sensitive?:rolleyes:
Dan
Edit:
I have read a lot of your people say "I suck," "we all suck."
I have no people. These people are members of nothing in my name and never will be. I have no system or anything like that. I have lost track of the number of teachers I have kneeled and bowed to in open rooms who come to me. We hang out together and train together. Not one of them sees me as above them. They are extremely self aware and confident.

Chris Li
10-26-2011, 05:23 PM
Oh my God, are you people reaally this sensitive?:rolleyes:
Dan

Oh absolutely! I can't count the nights that I've cried myself to sleep after a session with Dan screaming "You suck!" in my ear.

Maybe I should just give up and go work on my self-esteem :D .

Best,

Chris

DH
10-26-2011, 05:31 PM
Oh absolutely! I can't count the nights that I've cried myself to sleep after a session with Dan screaming "You suck!" in my ear.

Maybe I should just give up and go work on my self-esteem :D .

Best,

Chris\

I have woken up with a picture of you trying stuff in the dojo...and I cry as well!! :D :D

I have this teacher who will yell out as I am going fast and focusing..."Dan!! Freeze!!
And there you are full speed weapons flying...to stopping dead........
Hours later......"Dan!! Freeze!!... cold sweat!
After a year of this I told him once.
There I was making love with my wife and in my head I hear "Dan..... :D :D

akiy
10-26-2011, 05:33 PM
Hi folks,

Any chance the discussion can be steered back on-topic?

Thank you,

-- Jun

DH
10-26-2011, 05:40 PM
Scene
Dojo full of what was to become the new aikido greats...all training and straining and most likely feeling all groovy about themselves.
Booming voice..."You all suck!!..." :D
oops I mean
"This is not my Aikido!"
Then he proceeds as we now know...to teach them about the IP/aiki being discussed on Aikiweb!! Using real words- that mattered.

Then again we hear
"Sensei why can't we do what you do?"
"Because you do not understand In yo ho."
With apparently no further clarifications. Oh well.
I know people who trained with him and have heard stories from others. I have never heard of him being -for the most part -all warm and fuzzy in the dojo.
Just say'n
Dan

Mary Eastland
10-26-2011, 07:46 PM
Private Message....

[Editor: Private message removed]

This is what I mean by "your people"...this is creepy.
I DON"T want to train with Dan!
CAN YOU HEAR ME?

Cady Goldfield
10-26-2011, 08:00 PM
Mary,
Private messages are meant to be just that, private. Unfortunately, my good intentions have a history of going in the wrong direction, and I apologize.

bernardkwan
10-26-2011, 09:38 PM
In Japanese: 動、静、引、弛、凝、解、分、合

I know little about Chinese, but from what I can gather on Google (and from what little I know of Tai Chi), Tai Chi uses different characters that are more technically related. It may well be that there are some close linkages.

Best,

Chris

Hi Chris,

It's been a while.

Yes I believe the Tai Chi 掤、履、擠、按、採、列、肘、靠 are more technically related in that these are applications. The 8 energies you mentioned above are interesting in that last two 分 & 合 are similar to the opening and closing of Taichi 開 and 合.

動、静 - movement and stillness - in Chinese arts movement refers to the actual techniques and stillness training usually refers to meditation or zhan zhuang (pole standing).

引 - leading - this is a common concept in Taichi - as in leading into emptiness - apologies but I think pulling is too strong a word

弛 - what you translate as loosening, this character not commonly used in Chinese martial arts but perhaps this is the Japanese way of expressing the concept of "Song" 鬆 or relaxation?

凝 - what you translate as congealing - perhaps the corrollary here is 沉 or "sinking" or being connected using whole body power - just speculating here?

解 - what you translate as melting - I disagree with the translation as this is more unravelling as unravelling a knot, I am having trouble finding an exact match but loosening may perhaps be a better translation here rather than above- perhaps this is sensitivity to escape from joint locks or in wresting. Again a guess.

As for Mark's comment that these are just purely opposites - yes and no, looking at the concepts it seems a little more complicated than that. Sometimes in classical writing the author throws a bunch of opposites for stylistic effect (such as he searched to the right and the left, to the eastern mountain and western sea, to the palaces and the homes of the people, etc.) but this seems to be a bit more than that as each concept should be "unpacked" and is important.

I have to defer to your experience and authority for the Japanese somewhat as I know for a fact that Japanese Kanji do not always have the same meaning as the Chinese Hanzi, especially for modern Japanese. But for such characters, more classical contexts the meaning is usually similar or has an older classical Chinese meaning rather than the modern Chinese meaning.

graham christian
10-26-2011, 09:44 PM
Scene
Dojo full of what was to become the new aikido greats...all training and straining and most likely feeling all groovy about themselves.
Booming voice..."You all suck!!..." :D
oops I mean
"This is not my Aikido!"
Then he proceeds as we now know...to teach them about the IP/aiki being discussed on Aikiweb!! Using real words- that mattered.

Then again we hear
"Sensei why can't we do what you do?"
"Because you do not understand In yo ho."
With apparently no further clarifications. Oh well.
I know people who trained with him and have heard stories from others. I have never heard of him being -for the most part -all warm and fuzzy in the dojo.
Just say'n
Dan

Hi Dan. For once I am in agreement with you. It's good to acknowledge where you are. It's actually a good exercise in life too. I could try to fix a car and bump straight into my lack of understanding and incompetence in that activity. To acknowledge where I am would be good. It's not negative. As a short cut I may say therefore I'm hopeless at fixing cars or car machanics.

I'm using the words as an acknowledgement rather than a put down. Thus it is, used this way, neutral. So in fact it fits in with what Ron would desire.

Back to topic I have just one question for you which doesn't need a long answer. It's on your view and indeed practice of the principles of in yo ho (I still call it yin and yang) and for example the eight forces mentioned. I see you pair them off and use them as in alignment with the basic premise of yin and yang being the theory of opposites.

Ok. Now for the shocker. I have yin and yang within my Aikido. I'm not saying anything to do with your Aiki teaching but merely this one question. Do you personally explain them as opposites?

I know this may sound like a dumb question not only to you but to many so I will take you out of any mystery by explaining why I ask.

It's because within my framework for years now I have pointed out to people that in essence 'opposites' is not true and that, gasp, horror, yin and yang in truth is the theory of complimentary forces and when they understand this they will understand yin and yang better.

Feel free to answer as you see fit.

Regards.G.

bernardkwan
10-26-2011, 09:51 PM
Hey Suckers!

can we get back to the thread please?

graham christian
10-26-2011, 09:58 PM
Hey Suckers!

can we get back to the thread please? (Hope your not referring to me)

Ha, ha. This is on the thread. It's about the things in the translation and how it's then translated or seen by Dan.

Regards.G.

bernardkwan
10-26-2011, 10:03 PM
Yes sorry Graham - I see your topic was about In/yo

Chris Li
10-26-2011, 10:17 PM
Hi Chris,

It's been a while.

Yes I believe the Tai Chi 掤、履、擠、按、採、列、肘、靠 are more technically related in that these are applications. The 8 energies you mentioned above are interesting in that last two 分 & 合 are similar to the opening and closing of Taichi 開 and 合.

The Japanese is a more literal "division" or "separation" - the Kanji for "open" in Japanese is the same as in Chinese.


引 - leading - this is a common concept in Taichi - as in leading into emptiness - apologies but I think pulling is too strong a word

It can also mean "draw", but maybe in light of the paired force it's more like "stretch" (that would be a very loose interpretation of the literal meaning).


弛 - what you translate as loosening, this character not commonly used in Chinese martial arts but perhaps this is the Japanese way of expressing the concept of "Song" 鬆 or relaxation?

They can both be used for "loosen" or "relax", which would pair with the first one.


凝 - what you translate as congealing - perhaps the corrollary here is 沉 or "sinking" or being connected using whole body power - just speculating here?

That one I don't have in Japanese - I meant "congealing" as in "stiffening" or (maybe) "fusing".


解 - what you translate as melting - I disagree with the translation as this is more unravelling as unravelling a knot, I am having trouble finding an exact match but loosening may perhaps be a better translation here rather than above- perhaps this is sensitivity to escape from joint locks or in wresting. Again a guess.

"Unravel" is probably closer - I was thinking in terms of pairs with the above term.



I have to defer to your experience and authority for the Japanese somewhat as I know for a fact that Japanese Kanji do not always have the same meaning as the Chinese Hanzi, especially for modern Japanese. But for such characters, more classical contexts the meaning is usually similar or has an older classical Chinese meaning rather than the modern Chinese meaning.

I haven't come across much in detail about how Ueshiba specifically interpreted each individual term, so a lot of the above are best guesses. There's probably more buried somewhere, I'm coming across more all the time.

Also, keep in mind that this is all very unpolished - I just started working up some passages that interested me for my own and my friends usage.

Aside from the technical references themselves, how would Chinese describe the basic attributes of each energy?

Best,

Chris

bernardkwan
10-26-2011, 11:00 PM
Chris - I realize they are rough and ready translations but thanks for doing them.

Please note that these are my interpretations of the terms and each of them probably need a longer description than I have written (and I have consciously steered clear of some of the IS interpretations such as using dantian,etc. )

Actually putting them in sequence there is a nice harmony to them in that in some ways the first is the basis for the second pair and the third is the basis for the fourth pair

Stillness and Movement - movement trains techniques and applications (speed, angle etc.) stillness trains the whole body integration (mind, body, fascia)

Leading and Loosening - I would pair up the leading as the energy of taking your opponent off balance, and loosening as the ability to remove tension from your body to slip out of locks and reverse techniques

Relaxation and Congealing - ability to have a relaxed body without extraneous tension and congealing is the ability to link up the body into one unit to fajin or issue force

Opening and Closing - storing and releasing the energy (related to usage of the back bow) - I know the character is for separating but I think the concept is the same as opening.

Just talking about In/yo seems too abstract for me... as In/yo is a relative concept and means different things in different situations.

Patrick Hutchinson
10-27-2011, 07:53 AM
Excuse me, but "creepy" (and reprehensible) is a teacher making public a private message without the permission of the sender. Unbelievable.

MM
10-27-2011, 08:23 AM
Private Message....

(PM cut)

This is what I mean by "your people"...this is creepy.
I DON"T want to train with Dan!
CAN YOU HEAR ME?

Hello,

Would you do me a small favor? I know, it's somewhat intrusive to ask. If you haven't already, would you take a step back, catch your breath, relax, find your center, and then look at your post with fresh eyes? You posted a private message onto a public thread. That isn't a nice thing to do, but we all make mistakes. I'm sure Cady is nice enough to understand that frustration levels can get very high at times and a sincere apology works wonders.

Other than that, I think your message came through loud and clear. There is a saying about walking a mile in one's shoes ... I think perhaps both sides can gain from that saying. On our end, some of us should gain an understanding that you are Happy in your Aikido. That you have a Vision of Aikido which is giving you a Life full of Wonder and Challenge.

On your end, I hope you can understand the thrill of a child getting a brand new, much wanted, toy. The child looks at it in wonder and excitement and wants to play and share the toy with other kids. So, too, does this aiki fall into our hands. It is wonder, excitement, thrills, and we are ecstatic to share the "toy". In our excitement, we sometimes forget that other people do not have the same views about "play" or even "toys" in general.

Maybe one day we'll find some common ground ...

Mark

(Please excuse the off topic post)

phitruong
10-27-2011, 08:41 AM
C
Please note that these are my interpretations of the terms and each of them probably need a longer description than I have written (and I have consciously steered clear of some of the IS interpretations such as using dantian,etc. )
.

why would you want to steer from the IS interpretations? you should just drive right through it. ran across this article (*warning, moi no do taichi*) http://www.chenstyletaichi.com/english/pages/a_eightbasic.htm and wondering if Ueshiba teachings related to that, at least to peng, lu, ji, an?

how hard is it find someone who knows Japanese, Chinese, English and IS at the same time?

*it sucks that i don't know japanese or chinese or IS for that matter*

DH
10-27-2011, 08:44 AM
Hi Dan. For once I am in agreement with you. It's good to acknowledge where you are. It's actually a good exercise in life too. I could try to fix a car and bump straight into my lack of understanding and incompetence in that activity. To acknowledge where I am would be good. It's not negative. As a short cut I may say therefore I'm hopeless at fixing cars or car machanics.

I'm using the words as an acknowledgement rather than a put down. Thus it is, used this way, neutral. So in fact it fits in with what Ron would desire.
I have no idea what you are referring to. You agree with what?

Back to topic I have just one question for you which doesn't need a long answer. It's on your view and indeed practice of the principles of in yo ho (I still call it yin and yang) and for example the eight forces mentioned. I see you pair them off and use them as in alignment with the basic premise of yin and yang being the theory of opposites.
Ok. Now for the shocker. I have yin and yang within my Aikido. I'm not saying anything to do with your Aiki teaching but merely this one question. Do you personally explain them as opposites?

Graham
You state you have yin and yang in your aikido. You have produced many videos. When and if, someone understands in yo ho- it is revealed in their movements and in their contact with others. It is obvious. If it is not there, the tell tale markers are all over the place and hundreds of people can see them. Really, no discussion is needed.

I know this may sound like a dumb question not only to you but to many so I will take you out of any mystery by explaining why I ask.
It's because within my framework for years now I have pointed out to people that in essence 'opposites' is not true and that, gasp, horror, yin and yang in truth is the theory of complimentary forces and when they understand this they will understand yin and yang better.
Feel free to answer as you see fit.
Regards.G.
The world is wrong and you are right? Er...okay. You can redefine anything for Graham's use as you like. I don't quite understand why you would take a term with such an established pedagogy and twist it to mean the opposite of what the world knew it meant.

The reason the union of opposites is so profound that it lasted centuries, is that it pretty much sidelined and pushed everyone who doubted it out of the field. It was it's own truth and everyone else was forced to go home with their individual unique theories or not show up at all for any worthwhile comparisons.
Had Ueshiba adopted your model- none of us would be here. Why?
No one would have known his name or found him worth following.
Dan

DH
10-27-2011, 09:13 AM
Chris - I realize they are rough and ready translations but thanks for doing them.

Please note that these are my interpretations of the terms and each of them probably need a longer description than I have written (and I have consciously steered clear of some of the IS interpretations such as using dantian,etc. )

Actually putting them in sequence there is a nice harmony to them in that in some ways the first is the basis for the second pair and the third is the basis for the fourth pair

Stillness and Movement - movement trains techniques and applications (speed, angle etc.) stillness trains the whole body integration (mind, body, fascia)

Leading and Loosening - I would pair up the leading as the energy of taking your opponent off balance, and loosening as the ability to remove tension from your body to slip out of locks and reverse techniques

Relaxation and Congealing - ability to have a relaxed body without extraneous tension and congealing is the ability to link up the body into one unit to fajin or issue force

Opening and Closing - storing and releasing the energy (related to usage of the back bow) - I know the character is for separating but I think the concept is the same as opening.

Just talking about In/yo seems too abstract for me... as In/yo is a relative concept and means different things in different situations.
I disagree with your descriptions of Ueshiba's list
Chris wrote: Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as an active force, a quiet force, a pulling force, a loosening force, a splitting force, a combining force, a melting force and a congealing force (you can see that each "in" force has a matching "yo" force).
Your redefining without enough information. They clearly do not line up with say; the eight jins of taiji, though we can make similarities. Ueshiba has many other newly translated passages that do discuss connecting and the use of jins, but are not nearly as complete (so far) as similar Chinese writings. I do not think that these passages are exactly what people are looking to have them mean in regards to say a taiji perspective on eight jins. I could argue both sides against the middle and presume quite a bit. I'd rather wait until more of his previous supposedly unintelligble meanderings and writtings that skipped over and mistranslated are translated correctly-hopefully not by the type of sources who screwed them up in the first place- so the clarity of his research and his methods are made known.
Dan

graham christian
10-27-2011, 11:34 AM
I have no idea what you are referring to. You agree with what?

Graham
You state you have yin and yang in your aikido. You have produced many videos. When and if, someone understands in yo ho- it is revealed in their movements and in their contact with others. It is obvious. If it is not there, the tell tale markers are all over the place and hundreds of people can see them. Really, no discussion is needed.

The world is wrong and you are right? Er...okay. You can redefine anything for Graham's use as you like. I don't quite understand why you would take a term with such an established pedagogy and twist it to mean the opposite of what the world knew it meant.

The reason the union of opposites is so profound that it lasted centuries, is that it pretty much sidelined and pushed everyone who doubted it out of the field. It was it's own truth and everyone else was forced to go home with their individual unique theories or not show up at all for any worthwhile comparisons.
Had Ueshiba adopted your model- none of us would be here. Why?
No one would have known his name or found him worth following.
Dan

No idea what I was agreeing with? Read it again or I'll give you a clue,(if you miss what I was referring to then you suck) ha,ha.

On the second point I asked for an answer, you gave one, good. Thank you.

Regards.G.

bernardkwan
10-27-2011, 08:46 PM
I disagree with your descriptions of Ueshiba's list
Chris wrote: Ueshiba described the "Hachiriki" as an active force, a quiet force, a pulling force, a loosening force, a splitting force, a combining force, a melting force and a congealing force (you can see that each "in" force has a matching "yo" force).
Your redefining without enough information. They clearly do not line up with say; the eight jins of taiji, though we can make similarities.


Hi Dan,

you are probably right - I would love to spend more time with Chris to look at some of the other interesting passages to make more of a case.

But I thought it was an interesting intellectual exercise if nothing else as to why he chose the specific Kanji that he did.

Bernard

DH
10-28-2011, 10:07 AM
Hi Dan,
you are probably right - I would love to spend more time with Chris to look at some of the other interesting passages to make more of a case.
But I thought it was an interesting intellectual exercise if nothing else as to why he chose the specific Kanji that he did.
Bernard
Hello Bernard
I agree we need more time but the case is pretty much nailed and moving in one direction.
In keeping with his personal training history (and the reason I nailed what he was doing and what we all should have been talking about) his focus was on creating aiki as a blending of ki in himself- in/yo ho. Then and only then, did he address connection between others.
It is aiki in me
looong before
aiki between thee and me. ;)
I know that as a model, it turns aikido on its head, but as I have said for years; aikido-ka are really not doing Morihei Ueshiba's way of aiki, they are doing something different. No harm, no foul, but they can't make any case at all that they were. They self-admittedly don't even know what the hell he was talking about in defining his own aiki. Now others are seeing Ueshiba's own definitions, and realize as well that they stand in stark opposition to what Aikido™ is today.

Examining recent discussions
You had me pointing to dual spirals. You had me arguing with a Chinese IS taiji guy here who was saying there was no spiraling or reeling in Aikido.
The creation of some important affects that creates on contact.
Why you do not turn from or generate power from- the hips.
The reason aikido is elbow power.
And the reason that Tohei's model did not nearly cut it, as he never was moving like Ueshiba.

What is the result
Ueshiba's own words now revealing that; The mystery of aiki is revealed in dual spirals; descending on one side, rising on the other and secondarily the effect it creates within your own body...where they cross. So it turns out- Dual opposing spirals was Ueshiba's own definition for his internal movement. ;)
This, before he goes on to state the effect that has when dealing with force.
This leads to his statements of the circle and center and how it is NOT you moving in a circle at all. That it is in fact the source of irimi/tenkan in neutralizing in duality. The great, vaunted, circle of aiki had not one thing to do with moving in a circle.

What will be the next step?
In the end -as I had stated and predicted years ago- there is an Aikido™ of Kisshomaru, and the true way of Aiki, the founders mission. Morihei Ueshiba was the model and not his son. It is his words we need to adhere to and not those of his son or later followers. It is no surprise that the aikikai banned certain practices-all centering around this work- and distanced themselves from those with power, to the point that these men pursued and taught aiki differently, outside of hombu. This continues to this very day. Nothing is more damning or revealing than seeing the growing numbers of teachers going outside of Aikido™ to learn the way of aiki and watching the Aikikai and modern adepts circling the wagons against the percieved intrusion.

In the fullness of time Kisshomaru got what he wanted; an externally athletic, blandly consistent, cookie cutter model, Aikido™- that had nothing to do with Morihei Ueshiba's power and understanding of what aiki...is. We will see and increasing number of teachers trying to conscript and redefine aiki into a generic catch all term- such as the realm of aiki -to validate and place a protective umbrella over their current understanding.
Yet the words of the founder "This is not my aikido" is still echoing down the halls of time and speaking to the vast majority of us today. And now, with clear terms that define and separate his own meaning of aiki, away from any modern attempt at a generic model.
All the best
Dan

2012
The Way of Aiki
Exploring internal strength and Aiki in the Japanese arts
Including never before translated words of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba

Ken McGrew
11-05-2011, 11:41 PM
Hello Bernard
I agree we need more time but the case is pretty much nailed and moving in one direction.
In keeping with his personal training history (and the reason I nailed what he was doing and what we all should have been talking about) his focus was on creating aiki as a blending of ki in himself- in/yo ho. Then and only then, did he address connection between others.
It is aiki in me
looong before
aiki between thee and me. ;)
I know that as a model, it turns aikido on its head, but as I have said for years; aikido-ka are really not doing Morihei Ueshiba's way of aiki, they are doing something different. No harm, no foul, but they can't make any case at all that they were. They self-admittedly don't even know what the hell he was talking about in defining his own aiki. Now others are seeing Ueshiba's own definitions, and realize as well that they stand in stark opposition to what Aikido is today.

Examining recent discussions
You had me pointing to dual spirals. You had me arguing with a Chinese IS taiji guy here who was saying there was no spiraling or reeling in Aikido.
The creation of some important affects that creates on contact.
Why you do not turn from or generate power from- the hips.
The reason aikido is elbow power.
And the reason that Tohei's model did not nearly cut it, as he never was moving like Ueshiba.

What is the result
Ueshiba's own words now revealing that; The mystery of aiki is revealed in dual spirals; descending on one side, rising on the other and secondarily the effect it creates within your own body...where they cross. So it turns out- Dual opposing spirals was Ueshiba's own definition for his internal movement. ;)
This, before he goes on to state the effect that has when dealing with force.
This leads to his statements of the circle and center and how it is NOT you moving in a circle at all. That it is in fact the source of irimi/tenkan in neutralizing in duality. The great, vaunted, circle of aiki had not one thing to do with moving in a circle.

What will be the next step?
In the end -as I had stated and predicted years ago- there is an Aikido of Kisshomaru, and the true way of Aiki, the founders mission. Morihei Ueshiba was the model and not his son. It is his words we need to adhere to and not those of his son or later followers. It is no surprise that the aikikai banned certain practices-all centering around this work- and distanced themselves from those with power, to the point that these men pursued and taught aiki differently, outside of hombu. This continues to this very day. Nothing is more damning or revealing than seeing the growing numbers of teachers going outside of Aikido to learn the way of aiki and watching the Aikikai and modern adepts circling the wagons against the percieved intrusion.

In the fullness of time Kisshomaru got what he wanted; an externally athletic, blandly consistent, cookie cutter model, Aikido- that had nothing to do with Morihei Ueshiba's power and understanding of what aiki...is. We will see and increasing number of teachers trying to conscript and redefine aiki into a generic catch all term- such as the realm of aiki -to validate and place a protective umbrella over their current understanding.
Yet the words of the founder "This is not my aikido" is still echoing down the halls of time and speaking to the vast majority of us today. And now, with clear terms that define and separate his own meaning of aiki, away from any modern attempt at a generic model.
All the best
Dan

2012
The Way of Aiki
Exploring internal strength and Aiki in the Japanese arts
Including never before translated words of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba

This is almost incoherent writing. Maybe if I read every post you ever made I would understand what you mean, but that's a lot to ask. I get the idea that people disagreed with you about something related to Aikido and the unity of opposites among other things and that you feel vindicated by recently translated language from O'Sensei. Other than that it's very hard to follow your writing. I don't see anything in the notion of Universal spirals being manifested in Nage that is new if you've read Saotome's books. But maybe you mean something more that isn't clear.

Thomas Campbell
11-07-2011, 07:17 PM
This is almost incoherent writing. Maybe if I read every post you ever made I would understand what you mean, but that's a lot to ask.

Clearly Dan is writing for people who have been following this line of discussion, not for someone jumping in at the end. Dan's post certainly isn't incoherent to me, but then again I've read most of the posts in this thread and others relating to it.

Gary David
11-09-2011, 12:09 AM
This is almost incoherent writing. Maybe if I read every post you ever made I would understand what you mean, but that's a lot to ask. I get the idea that people disagreed with you about something related to Aikido and the unity of opposites among other things and that you feel vindicated by recently translated language from O'Sensei. Other than that it's very hard to follow your writing. I don't see anything in the notion of Universal spirals being manifested in Nage that is new if you've read Saotome's books. But maybe you mean something more that isn't clear.

Let me relate something that may reflect on the place you find yourself....... A very good friend of mine and a one time training partner is retired in Hawaii to his families home. Roy is 79 years old with a keen mind and a slowing body. The first time that Dan Harden conducted a workshop in Hawaii I was able to raise enough interest in Roy to go down and watch for a hour or two. With Dan and Chris Li's ok Roy stopped by and stayed the whole weekend sitting on the side. Roy engaged in the conversations taking place on mat and added his questions to the rest that were raised. He had a great time. This time when Dan went back to Hawaii I talked Roy into stopping down again, which he did. It seems this time he got up and got on the mat and took part in the exercises and the drills. He had a great time.....this at 79, with bad knees and a bent body.

All of this is well and good, but what may apply here is Roy's comments about understanding what was being said, what was being done and what the results were. Roy said that the first time he spent with Dan that it was so new to him that he had a hard time even taking notes. The stuff worked, it fit into what should be Aikido, but it was not something that had ever been touched on any previous teacher he had had. It was the unknown. This time around Roy had a better base to work from and things seem to fall into place. Roy found Dan to be funny, generous and very good at what he was sharing. This was true of the kindness and thoughtfulness of Chris Li.

What comes out of this is what has been said by others......find the time to check Dan Harden out personally and if you get a change to go to Hawaii stop by to see Chris Li......... and take Roy out for coffee to get him out of the house.....
Gary

DH
11-09-2011, 12:46 PM
Hello Gary
The truth is that the pleasure is all ours. By the end of the seminar Roy was popping me three feet with no force. He kept looking at me stunned (thinking there was no way this was happening) so I kept switching out ukes and last time I looked chris was up in the air.

Now mind you, there was Roy...with this look of shear joy on his face and belly laughing continuously. It made my weekend.

By Sunday I had his body opening and straightening as well. That guy is focused and really thinks, and now we know there is an educated budo- ka behind those eyes, who can deliver.

Roy....laughing all day, eyes bright and shining leading, absorbing casting away people with ease....You know ....sometimes you get back more than you put in. Those are good days. So thank you for introducing us.
All the best
Dan