cross training options

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[dapidmini]

there's only 1 dojo in my neighborhood and it only has 2 classes a week - tuesday and thursday. I can't attend the tuesday session most of the time due to other activity so I'm thinking about taking another martial art for extra exercise. the only dojos available are taekwondo and kendo. which one do you guys think will complement with aikido better? the kicking techniques from taekwondo or the sword work from kendo?

thanks in advance..

[Lyle Laizure]

It will depend on the instructor. Personaly I would prefer swordsmanship but what little I know about Kendo I would go with Tae Kwon Do. Try them both and see which one you like better.

[ryback]

Hi David!Each martial art has its own techniques and also its own basic principles.In the case of aikido especially the basic principles(about feeling your centre,extending your ki,leading the uke by harmonising and controling him and not by force,using spiraling movements with more than one "orbit" at a time)are quite unique.In my opinion is not a good idea to cross train with another art.I think it would be better if you could find a second dojo,even if it's far from your neighbourhood in order to be able to practice aikido more.Aikido is a complete martial art as it is,you don't need to mix it with another just to practice more i guess.Kendo and Tae kwon do are fighting competative sports,so they have nothing in common with a true martial art such as aikido anyway...

[lbb]

I agree with Yannis -- I don't think training in a second martial art is a good idea unless you know that you'll have sufficient time to train adequately in both. If you want more training time, I'd look for another aikido dojo. If you want more conditioning and exercise (which is a good idea anyway, no matter what your goal is), I'd pursue a program of basic aerobic conditioning, and when you've established a basic level of aerobic fitness, continue that and add a core strength training program.

I also don't think it's wise to train in another martial art with the thought of how you'd use the two styles together, until you're at an advanced level in your first style (and maybe not even then). You need to have a strong understanding of the foundational principles of your first art before you will be able to look at another art and see whether it is using the same principles or doing something fundamentally different. In the latter case, I'm thinking you're not going to succeed in combining them no matter how advanced you are. You can train in a second art and benefit from it and get enjoyment, but I think you have to have a certain mindset to make it work.

[phitruong]

i'd go with parkour or systema. more so with parkour because it's relevant to self-defense as in if you can catch me, you have the right to beat me; otherwise, you can suck my dust. :)

[dapidmini]

I'd love to learn parkour.. (my friend jokes about it for becoming a skilled underwear thief LOL) unfortunately, there isn't one that I know of..

if I remember correctly, my Sensei allows his students to learn other MAs but he forbids his students to learn another style aikido.. I forgot why.

it's not like I want to combine them.. I think I fell in love with martial arts (I don't know if it's the sensations during and after practice or the community) so I just want to learn many things while getting more exercises.. I've been doing aerobic exercises and conditionings almost everyday but I don't get the feeling like when I come to a dojo and train there.. can someone give me a supposedly fun or exciting routine that I can do to train aikido at home? I don't have a mat though.. just concrete floor. even though I suppose I can do ukemis on the floor, I'm just not sure if it's a good idea.. especially doing a high breakfall on them >_< *ouch

[Cliff Judge]

Drop Aikido and do whichever of TKD or Kendo that you can get to class a minimum of three times a week.

[Larry Feldman]

Kendo.

Aikido came from sword work.

Much of TKD is pretty commercialized these days, and doesn't really relate back to Aikido in terms of cross training. This of course assumes equally qualified instructors....

[jester]

Go with TKD. better cardio and stretching, plus it will give you more to think about. You can see how a puncher and kicker looks at things which will help you out in Aikido.

[Diana Frese]

Hi David,

This is just off the top of my head because I just woke up from a nap (my husband drives a limo and has weird hours and I have to tend to the meals due to a gluten-free diet his doctor mandated for him)

Your question caught my interest, and I have to agree with a lot that Mary said. I remember reading something that the late Sugano Seiichi Sensei had said, that "you cannot climb two mountains at the same time" You can probably find the article using the search function since you are an Aiki Web member, if you are interested.

I can identify with your not being able to attend your Aikido dojo more than once a week, although I had students at a YWCA in a neighboring town where we only had class once a week, and I was a bit surprised how well they did, because at our original Y here in Stamford we built up to four days a week, then when other programs needed space and we had financial limitations, we had fewer days (evenings, that is).

I'll post again with more observations but hesitate to give my whole history (yes I did train in an additional martial art later on) all at once.... later for the other details.... what I'd like to suggest for you is to explain your schedule problem on Tuesdays and ask the teacher for things you can work on at home.

I am in the position now of not being able to get to a dojo, and my husband doesn't have much time to train with me, so I need to remember all those different things to practice that I taught my own students to do solo many years ago during the beginning part of the two hour classes we were fortunate to have available to us.

After the basic stretching, and warming up of the body, wrists etc. there are steps and movements that we worked on. I called them Nureyev Lessons, even though I was not actually teaching ballet. There was a football player with the New York Jets who actually did take up ballet to improve his football (now that soccer is so popular I need to explain this is traditional American football I'm referring to)

My point was that we should work on movements related to Aikido for our own balance somewhat each practice session, if time permits, in order to then be able to work better with our partners.

Sorry to ramble, but I'm posting now so you can maybe use this idea to ask your sensei what you can practice at home. The other martial arts , etc. are great, but as Mary seems to be saying might be confusing to take at the same time.

Hope things work out well for you in Aikido,
Sincerely, Diana

[Diana Frese]

Larry and Tim posted while I was still typing, so you do have plenty of advice on cross training if you want to do that.... I just picked up on Mary's point, due to respect for many of her views on Aiki Web in general, and to things I have heard or read other teachers say....

Good luck whatever you choose to do....

[Diana Frese]

On the same theme as Mary, I forgot to give credit to Yannis also .... Efharisto Yannis, your point of view is very well said!

(That's thank you, in Greek, for everyone else:))

Artemisia

[Cady Goldfield]

Is parkour something that can be taught? It seems more like skateboarding, stunt-bicycling and other urban-acrobatic pursuits: You maybe could get some coaching and useful tips from a skilled parkourista (is that even a word? :) ), but the rest you'd pretty much have to figure out for yourself and have good acrobatic-gymnastic body talent.

I'd love to learn parkour.. (my friend jokes about it for becoming a skilled underwear thief LOL) unfortunately, there isn't one that I know of..

if I remember correctly, my Sensei allows his students to learn other MAs but he forbids his students to learn another style aikido.. I forgot why.

it's not like I want to combine them.. I think I fell in love with martial arts (I don't know if it's the sensations during and after practice or the community) so I just want to learn many things while getting more exercises.. I've been doing aerobic exercises and conditionings almost everyday but I don't get the feeling like when I come to a dojo and train there.. can someone give me a supposedly fun or exciting routine that I can do to train aikido at home? I don't have a mat though.. just concrete floor. even though I suppose I can do ukemis on the floor, I'm just not sure if it's a good idea.. especially doing a high breakfall on them >_< *ouch

[Walter Martindale]

Cross Training? We usually call things other than what we do for our normal 'sport' "cross training".

Run. Work up to being able to run (not jog) for 45 minutes.
Swim.
Ride a bicycle. 90 minutes or more.
Row (learn how to row a racing boat - that will build your core and balance skills for the first few months while you're learning it, and then your physical fitness when you can push hard on the foot plate for 90 minutes/16-20 km...
Lift Weights - properly - as in sports training lift weights, not "body sculpting" lift weights - learn the squat, power clean, deadlift, and a few other lifts that competitive athletes do.
Practice aikido movements during warm up and cool-down from any or all of these training modes. Practice LOTS of ukemi.
IMO
W

[jester]

Run. Work up to being able to run (not jog) for 45 minutes.
Swim.
Ride a bicycle. 90 minutes or more.
Row (learn how to row a racing boat - that will build your core and balance skills for the first few months while you're learning it, and then your physical fitness when you can push hard on the foot plate for 90 minutes/16-20 km...
Lift Weights - properly - as in sports training lift weights, not "body sculpting" lift weights - learn the squat, power clean, deadlift, and a few other lifts that competitive athletes do.


That's being called cross-fit. ;) Cross training in martial arts refers to doing other martial arts. Usually to add something to your training that is lacking.

-

[ryback]

I'd love to learn parkour.. (my friend jokes about it for becoming a skilled underwear thief LOL) unfortunately, there isn't one that I know of..

if I remember correctly, my Sensei allows his students to learn other MAs but he forbids his students to learn another style aikido.. I forgot why.

it's not like I want to combine them.. I think I fell in love with martial arts (I don't know if it's the sensations during and after practice or the community) so I just want to learn many things while getting more exercises.. I've been doing aerobic exercises and conditionings almost everyday but I don't get the feeling like when I come to a dojo and train there.. can someone give me a supposedly fun or exciting routine that I can do to train aikido at home? I don't have a mat though.. just concrete floor. even though I suppose I can do ukemis on the floor, I'm just not sure if it's a good idea.. especially doing a high breakfall on them >_< *ouch
David, what i see here is that your motivation is realy good,you fell in love with martial arts as you say and i realy love the way you put it.I know most people don't say that but i will although i risk opening pandora's box here.There is only ONE aikido,no matter what your sensei says.Slight differences from master to master cannot constitute another style,everything should be according to what o'sensei taught and if,at a very high level,one would like to be creative he can do it but always according to aikido's basic principles.The only other art that would be apropriate to do parallel to aikido is Iai-do which is a true martial art and not a sport.One thing that you can do for home aikido solitary practice is weapons.If you can find some space you can practice bokken kata and suburi and also jo kata and suburi and if you accidentally break something don't worry i have too is part of the game haha:D I realy hope that you can find all of the above useful,good luck with your training!:)

[ryback]

On the same theme as Mary, I forgot to give credit to Yannis also .... Efharisto Yannis, your point of view is very well said!

(That's thank you, in Greek, for everyone else:))

Artemisia

Thank you so much Diana for your nice words.Efharisto!:)

[amoeba]

Haven't read anything, but I'd just go to both places and see which one you like better. Try to train once or twice in both and I guess you'll find out soon enough what suits you.

Personally, I do a little karate and I think it greatly benefits my punching and kicking. Even if you really try, there's just no time in an aikido class to really learn that... and calling other matrial arts "not true" just because they have competitions sounds really strange and arrogant to me.

[ryback]

Haven't read anything, but I'd just go to both places and see which one you like better. Try to train once or twice in both and I guess you'll find out soon enough what suits you.

Personally, I do a little karate and I think it greatly benefits my punching and kicking. Even if you really try, there's just no time in an aikido class to really learn that... and calling other matrial arts "not true" just because they have competitions sounds really strange and arrogant to me.

In karate one directly confronts an attack, by blocking the attacker's strike.In aikido one avoids the direct line of attack,he establishes contact with the attacker and maintaining that contact he controls the attacker, thus neutralizing him by imobilizing him or projecting him through something...painful.The basic principles of aikido have nothing to do with those of karate, in fact they are worlds apart.Atemi waza is an important part of aikido that one can learn in an aikido dojo, a suplemental element that is sometimes needed in order for the tori to "impose" his technique. In case of resistance it can be really...convincing.Atemi in aikido springs from the weapons training, in tsuki "hitting or thrusting" movements and in shomen uchi "cutting" movements, so no other training outside of aikido is required in order for the atemi waza to be studied.Competition with rules and regulations has nothing to do with the spirit of budo.These rules and regulations(in order for it to be safe for sparring) are limiting a martial art to a sport with a winning purpose, to the point when it's not anymore neither martial,nor art.It's not arrogance, it's just that the way of the warrior is not the way of the sportsman,it cannot be.Different purpose, different goals,different training.

[Dan Hover]

Whereas I agree with most of the aforementioned regarding the pitfalls of cross training, "climbing two mountains" is a great analogy. That being said, seldom have I ever met an aikidoka worth anything who didn't train in something else. This doesn't mean mastered mutiple arts but had a working knowledge base of various arts, whether that be Judo, Iaido, Kendo, BJJ, JJJ whatever.

[Cliff Judge]

Kendo.

Aikido came from sword work.

Much of TKD is pretty commercialized these days, and doesn't really relate back to Aikido in terms of cross training. This of course assumes equally qualified instructors....

Meh....spending $500 on beginner's kendo gear and moving forward and back in a straight line, whipping a shinai around in small, tight arcs, is really going to relate back to Aikido much less than TKD training would.

[Diana Frese]

hello again, I'm just jumping back into the thread to mention kendo, karate, and also two references to other writers.

I'm not sure where I read the "two mountains" I think it was part of an interview and I'm not sure what website, I'll let you know. I think Sugano Sensei meant at the same time. I think he meant after one has a basis in Aikido, one may want to learn about the other martial arts, but I'll check for the interview and get back with those of y'all who are interested, so you can read it yourselves.

I came from modern dance, actually at college the teacher was more particular than our high school teacher (to whom I am forever grateful for reassuring us to learn at our own pace). The teacher at college had earlier studied with Martha Graham in the earlier days and suggested I try something else. She may have just meant I was never going to be "a dancer." So I did take up something else, judo. The available sports like volleyball in an upstate New York city like Ithaca involved way too much standing time for someone like me who needed lots of exercise. I also took swimming.

I kept up the dance and swimming, and added judo. Anyway it's probably for that reason when I sensed I was slowing down in my late thirties I pursued my half-joking reference to Nureyev lessons in the classes I taught at the Y and took a neighbor up on his offer of Shotokan karate, as he had tried the Aikido it was sort of a cultural exchange. My assistant, who came from Shorinji kenpo was laughing because I asked my students to try to get their stances lower, and in Shotokan I had to make my stances even lower.

But enough about me, as they say. I can recommend a blog by "OwlMatt" by someone who has been practicing both Aikido and TaeKwonDo and finds each benefits him in a different way. Please check it out, it's very good, in the AikiBlogs section.

Kendo is great in its own way, it was helpful to me to learn that irimi way of just charging at and thru the other person (the focus I mean, not actually trampling them, they get out of the way, but maybe not before you actually strike the top of their helmet with your shinai) By the way it looks a bit like a catcher's mask with flaps that cover the shoulders.

Well, I've rambled, but yes, I have very positive things to say about other martial arts, the question is, when to add them, and when to simply concentrate on Aikido. My friends from Aikido, Cassandra and Valerie were doing kendo and enjoying it very much, but Cassandra had practiced Aikido a long time, she was from the early days of New York Aikikai.

Well, trying to be fair about cross training and give both sides of the picture. All the best to y'all, Daian

[grondahl]

With your options, I would choose kendo. I think kendo´s focus on ki-ken-tai-ichi coupled with learning to fully commit to an opponents opening is extremely valuable for an aikido-practitioner.

[Walter Martindale]

That's being called cross-fit. ;) Cross training in martial arts refers to doing other martial arts. Usually to add something to your training that is lacking.

-

picky, picky.. :D
A few dojo I've visited have physical fitness as a severe lack - sensei spends lots of time talking and demonstrating, trainees spend little time practicing. Most dojo, however, have lots of 'getting back up' for physical fitness..

The best I ever did at a judo practice was after I'd been rowing for a varsity season. they couldn't tire me out.
of course, the older we get, the better we were....:)

[dapidmini]

@Peter: when I attended the kendo trial class, the instructor also said similar thing.. but he said something about shouting the attack when we do it as a part of the unification of the mind-body-spirit so that in the real world, we can be true to our words.. I don't really like loud noises and shouting so that part bothers me a bit... that's what made me decided to think it through before taking kendo lesson seriously and regularly.. in my Aikido dojo, we rarely make loud noises (even when ukemi because we don't usually slap the mat)

I just read some posts here(aikiweb) about perfecting our ukemi in Judo.. and I've just found that there's a Judo dojo nearer than the kendo dojo and the schedule fits my empty slot so I'm thinking to try Judo as supplement training for my Aikido.. afaik Judo is closer to Aikido than Kendo and Taekwondo is, right? so it should be able to help my Aikido training too while giving me extra martial arts exercise and experience..

what do you guys think?

[dapidmini]

edit expired while I was watching some youtube videos...

@Peter: I agree with you in "Kendo teaches us to commit to opponents' openings".. would it be correct if I say that Judo also teaches that?

[David Yap]

Hi David,

You should also consider Shorinji Kempo. The training comprises of percussion (punch and kick) techniques and grappling (jujitsu) techniques and, then at higher level, combinations of both.

Your local link:
http://www.perkemi.or.id/simperkemi/

Regards

David Y

[OwlMatt]

I don't know what's available to you, TS, but I'll stick to taekwondo and kendo here since that's what you put in your post.

There is a lot of bad, commercialized taekwondo out there. If you're going to do TKD, make sure you find a good school. TKD is a great cardio workout, and will build flexibility and balance: all good stuff for aikido. Many schools, though, will devote disproportionate amounts of time to high, acrobatic kicks which aren't much martial use and won't serve you well in aikido. If you find a good instructor (preferrably one with experience in other martial arts who doesn't buy into the Korean nationalistic nonsense), it can be a good addiiton. I have done some crosstraining in TKD.

I have no firsthand experience with kendo, but I have known many aikido people who say learning more about the sword has improved their aikido.

[graham christian]

I personally admire more those who commit to one. I find that a person who is truly committed will naturally do other things in their spare time. For instance they go for runs, or do some weights or whatever.

In other words a committed person will naturally be fascinated in the principles and also the principles of other martial arts.

So for me it's not a matter of you should this or you should that it's purely a matter of being committed to one and then, and only then, will you know what else may help you.

Without such commitment then running around doing allsorts takes it into the field of hobby.

Just my opinion. G.